28/11/2013 Daily Politics


28/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by former Conservative minister Ann Widdecombe to discuss all the latest political news.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 28/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. David Cameron says he will

:00:40.:00:47.

give you and me a say in our relationship with Europe. In the

:00:48.:00:51.

meantime he wants to renegotiate our membership and make the EU work

:00:52.:00:56.

better for Britain, but how is he going to do it? This morning, a

:00:57.:01:01.

group of MPs have given him a helping hand. They have published a

:01:02.:01:04.

wish list of powers they would like to see the Prime Minister claw-back?

:01:05.:01:09.

The Government thinks it can help with your energy bill. We will have

:01:10.:01:15.

the details. The return of grammar schools, getting tough on

:01:16.:01:19.

immigration and the futility of tackling inequality. Is this a true

:01:20.:01:25.

blueprint of a Boris led Britain? We will be measuring up some of the

:01:26.:01:30.

finest moustaches in Parliament, and removing them, all for a good cause.

:01:31.:01:40.

He is wasted in politics, he should be on the stage. Anyway, all of that

:01:41.:01:52.

coming up. With us for the duration, Lady of many talents, politician,

:01:53.:01:59.

writer, philosopher -- philosopher, dancing queen. It is Ann Widdecombe.

:02:00.:02:06.

Let's start with energy. The Government has begun looking at ways

:02:07.:02:11.

to cut the cost of bills. It is struggling to do so after Ed

:02:12.:02:15.

Miliband came out with his energy price freeze. David Cameron said

:02:16.:02:18.

recently he wanted to roll back on some of the green levies. They are

:02:19.:02:25.

added to our energy bills and the Government are trying to find ways

:02:26.:02:31.

to cut or remove them. Our deputy political editor has some details

:02:32.:02:33.

about what the ministers are looking at. Thank you for joining us. Only

:02:34.:02:38.

one more day with that thing under your nose. Tell us what the Prime

:02:39.:02:46.

Minister is looking at and is likely to do. It is not a done deal yet,

:02:47.:02:52.

there are different parties, different energy groups and policy.

:02:53.:02:56.

The framework is now quite clear. The biggest of these green levies,

:02:57.:03:02.

the so-called eco-scheme which gives three installation to people on low

:03:03.:03:07.

incomes, they are planning to extend it. Too implemented over a longer

:03:08.:03:12.

period of time. As a result of that, the cost on the energy company is

:03:13.:03:18.

about half, that will be quite a large saving, about ?25 off your

:03:19.:03:24.

average build. The warm homes discount will be taken out of

:03:25.:03:30.

people's energy bills and put into general taxation. They are looking

:03:31.:03:33.

at changing regulations that they can somehow reduce the fixed costs

:03:34.:03:38.

of transmitting energy around the country. The aim is to try and

:03:39.:03:44.

reduce people's bill by about ?50 annually. The Lib Dems are trying to

:03:45.:03:48.

see if they can beef up some other green schemes so overall it is

:03:49.:03:53.

carbon neutral. Is the Government trying to arrange with the energy

:03:54.:03:57.

companies that if it announces bills can come down by ?50, we will

:03:58.:04:01.

immediately see that reduction in the next bill? Yes, it is my

:04:02.:04:06.

understanding that the Government expect on the day they announced

:04:07.:04:12.

that -- this deal, they expect all the six big energy companies to

:04:13.:04:16.

publish letters to the Government making clear their intention to cut

:04:17.:04:21.

their bills. There is a lot of choreography in this and they're

:04:22.:04:24.

expecting at all to happen at the same time. The political aim of the

:04:25.:04:27.

Government is to neutralise this as an issue so they have something to

:04:28.:04:32.

say in the cost of living debate, so that when they move on to say in the

:04:33.:04:35.

cost of living debate, so that when they move onto the Chancellor's

:04:36.:04:40.

Autumn statement they can focus I understand it has been indicated to

:04:41.:04:45.

you, whereas we thought this would be part of the Chancellor's Autumn

:04:46.:04:49.

statement next Thursday, that it is going to come out before the autumn

:04:50.:04:55.

statement? That is what they hope to do. We know the Prime Minister is

:04:56.:05:01.

travelling abroad. We know time is running out ahead of the Autumn

:05:02.:05:05.

statement. They have not actually agreed this deal yet. There is a

:05:06.:05:10.

huge amount of technical information and policy they have to get right.

:05:11.:05:15.

If they can announce it in advance, they will do so. They have a

:05:16.:05:20.

strategic incentive to do so. Talk about the cost of living before the

:05:21.:05:25.

statement so on the Autumn statement itself they can stick to the big

:05:26.:05:29.

message which is, we hope things are getting better but there is more to

:05:30.:05:34.

do. It paves the way for them to make that kind of argument. Thank

:05:35.:05:36.

you very much. Is this the way the Government

:05:37.:05:54.

should be going? Is this an adequate riposte to Ed Miliband's price

:05:55.:05:59.

freeze? It is certainly a move in the right direction. If you put

:06:00.:06:05.

green levies on, the cost has to be met. It was always obvious the

:06:06.:06:11.

consumer would have to meet them. If we finally get rid of the green

:06:12.:06:18.

fixation in favour of looking at what is sensible and affordable for

:06:19.:06:21.

individuals, that has got to be a big bonus. There are more green

:06:22.:06:29.

taxes. The average bill at the moment is around 110 -?120 worth of

:06:30.:06:37.

green levies. It looks like the Lib Dems are digging their heels in.

:06:38.:06:43.

What the Conservative part of the coalition has to do is make it clear

:06:44.:06:46.

to the general public that their bills could be even lower, were it

:06:47.:06:51.

not for the antics of the junior partners in the coalition. This is a

:06:52.:06:57.

conservative Prime Minister who promised vote blue, go green. I

:06:58.:07:03.

think it was a most unnecessary emphasis in view of the economy we

:07:04.:07:07.

had inherited, in view of the uncertainty around the science of

:07:08.:07:12.

climate change. If we are taking action now, that is plenty of time

:07:13.:07:16.

for people to feel the effects of it. If the Lib Dems are stopping us

:07:17.:07:23.

taking even more action to relieve the strain on households, that is

:07:24.:07:26.

something we should all know in time for the next election. Something we

:07:27.:07:33.

all look forward to. The question for today is what have I went to

:07:34.:07:40.

police spent more than ?13,000 on in an attempt to deter crime? -- Gwent

:07:41.:07:48.

Police. 2000 specialist tripwires? 2000 and truncheons? Ten portable

:07:49.:07:56.

mini-cameras worn by local cats? Or are 50 to cut out police officers?

:07:57.:08:02.

At the end of the show, Ann will give us the correct answer. That is

:08:03.:08:09.

interesting, isn't it? I think I know. Keep it to yourself. I will, I

:08:10.:08:21.

might be wrong. W.W.M.D.N, any idea what it stands for? It is, what

:08:22.:08:28.

would Maggie do now? It seems to be a question increasingly asked by

:08:29.:08:33.

conservative on questions on Europe, tax and education. Last night the

:08:34.:08:38.

question was raised by Boris Johnson. In a speech guaranteed to

:08:39.:08:43.

ruffle feathers in Downing Street, Boris bemoaned the UK's lack of

:08:44.:08:47.

social mobility and says Maggie would have tackled that by bringing

:08:48.:08:52.

back grammar schools. Where she here now, I hope she would make wider use

:08:53.:08:59.

of that most powerful utensil of academic improvement. And that is

:09:00.:09:02.

academic competition between children themselves. Is that an

:09:03.:09:11.

unthinkable thing to say? Is it? It is not. I remember sitting in a

:09:12.:09:16.

meeting of the Tory Shadow on team and listening with disbelief to a

:09:17.:09:20.

convert -- a conversation where everyone agreed it would be madness

:09:21.:09:24.

to bring back the grammar schools. I happen to know most of the people in

:09:25.:09:28.

that room were about to make use, as parents, of some of the most

:09:29.:09:33.

viciously selective schools in the country. I maybe wrong, but I hope

:09:34.:09:39.

she would find a way use that device and help children everywhere

:09:40.:09:42.

overcome their background. Even if I am wrong, I feel she would direct

:09:43.:09:50.

maternal and terrifying devotion upon Michael Gove and everything he

:09:51.:09:56.

does. Boris Johnson, never boring. Is he right on grammar schools? Yes,

:09:57.:10:03.

he is 100% right. In the days when we had grammar schools all over the

:10:04.:10:08.

country, there was no problem about the number of state school pupils

:10:09.:10:12.

who got into Oxbridge. Grammar schools used to compete very

:10:13.:10:17.

successfully. Since the abolition of grammar schools, parents feel, and I

:10:18.:10:20.

know this because I represented a constituency which had grammar

:10:21.:10:24.

schools and they used to fight like lions if ever there was a suggestion

:10:25.:10:29.

that a political party would do away with grammar schools. Parents want

:10:30.:10:33.

their children to get on, if they cannot afford to buy that, they want

:10:34.:10:37.

the state to supply the same standard of excellence. Did David

:10:38.:10:42.

Cameron must calculate the difficulty of bringing his party

:10:43.:10:44.

with him when he decided not to bring back grammar schools? I think

:10:45.:10:49.

he understood he was not in tune with the rest of the party. He was

:10:50.:10:57.

trying to be practical. Of course, he was right that he could not

:10:58.:11:01.

reinstate grammar schools all over the country. But he should have

:11:02.:11:04.

said, where a local authority wants to build a new grammar school, we

:11:05.:11:08.

will go along with that. That was the crucial step he missed. He said

:11:09.:11:13.

when he became leader that old grammar school policy had been a

:11:14.:11:17.

chain around our necks. What he wrong? Totally. Grammar schools

:11:18.:11:22.

allow children from modest backgrounds to be able to get out of

:11:23.:11:28.

that and get on, if they are able. But there will not be a reversal of

:11:29.:11:35.

that policy? I do not want David Cameron to blandly say, we will

:11:36.:11:38.

introduce grammar schools in every town. I want him to say, whether

:11:39.:11:43.

local authorities want to introduce grammar schools, we will not stand

:11:44.:11:49.

in their way. Let's have a look at Boris and the motivation for the

:11:50.:11:53.

speech. Always entertaining, but some of the things he said were

:11:54.:11:57.

deliberately provocative. Were they just cheap, easy remarks? He is

:11:58.:12:04.

saying things that a lot of politicians would not dare to say.

:12:05.:12:09.

Effectively, what he said in that speech was, there are some very

:12:10.:12:13.

clever people. Most of the population fall in between them and

:12:14.:12:19.

the very stupid people. And those who are academically challenged,

:12:20.:12:22.

will not find it as easy to get on as a very bright people. I cannot

:12:23.:12:27.

see what he said that the rest of us could not have worked out at the age

:12:28.:12:32.

of about eight or nine. What has he said that is so remarkable? On that

:12:33.:12:39.

point, that clip we showed where he said he sat around the table with

:12:40.:12:43.

the Shadow Tory education team where they were solemnly declaring you

:12:44.:12:47.

could not possibly continue with grammar schools, yet there they were

:12:48.:12:52.

sending their children to body called viciously selective schools.

:12:53.:12:59.

Is he right? Yes, but it also happens with Labour cabinets. They

:13:00.:13:03.

send their children to public schools, they move and send them to

:13:04.:13:08.

the best schools in the country. If you are Tony Blair, you send them

:13:09.:13:13.

across London to a chosen school. I do not think there is anything

:13:14.:13:16.

unique about that particular set of ministers. But it shows a level of

:13:17.:13:23.

hypocrisy? It shows a level of we liked one thing, but we are going to

:13:24.:13:28.

do another because it is the best thing for our children. He is right

:13:29.:13:33.

about Margaret Thatcher, because one of her big initiatives was to

:13:34.:13:36.

introduce the assisted places scheme meaning children from poorer

:13:37.:13:39.

backgrounds could go to independent schools. We will leave it there.

:13:40.:13:47.

David Cameron wants to give you a say on our membership of the

:13:48.:13:52.

European Union. Not before he has attempted to renegotiate that

:13:53.:13:56.

membership. What should he be trying to change? This morning a group of

:13:57.:14:00.

MPs calling themselves the Fresh Start Group have published

:14:01.:14:06.

the group's plans are set out in what they have called a mandate for

:14:07.:14:15.

reform. It argues the status quo in Britain's relationship for the EU is

:14:16.:14:20.

no longer an option. There is backing for the call to limit

:14:21.:14:24.

benefits for EU migrants. Member states must be able to decide who

:14:25.:14:30.

can access their welfare. The reach of the EU and its institutions

:14:31.:14:34.

should be scaled back. Reference in the EE treaties for an ever closer

:14:35.:14:39.

union should be removed. In one area there is a call for greater

:14:40.:14:43.

co-operation. There should be a new legal safeguard to inhibit any

:14:44.:14:48.

measure for a legal safeguard for the single market. Member states

:14:49.:14:55.

should we gain complete control of social and employment law. The UK

:14:56.:15:00.

should opt out of all policing and criminal justice rules. The

:15:01.:15:03.

fisheries policy should be regionalised and control of

:15:04.:15:06.

territorial waters should be returned to their member states.

:15:07.:15:11.

There should also be a new red card system to allow national parliaments

:15:12.:15:16.

to block proposed EU rules. The Prime Minister heads to a summit

:15:17.:15:19.

today on Eastern European cooperation. He might be hoping for

:15:20.:15:26.

a bit of that in his renegotiation. Our correspondent is there. Is there

:15:27.:15:32.

any talk of a reaction to his attempts in his campaign to try and

:15:33.:15:36.

renegotiate Britain's relationship with the rest of the EU? People are

:15:37.:15:44.

mostly aware of what was said yesterday, cracking down on welfare

:15:45.:15:49.

tourism, the idea of having a discussion about the impact of

:15:50.:15:53.

freedom of movement within the European Union. I have heard a

:15:54.:15:57.

couple of comments about that. People understand the need to make

:15:58.:16:01.

sure that people do not abuse the system. What a reappraisal of the

:16:02.:16:05.

entire philosophical principle of freedom of movement, that will be a

:16:06.:16:11.

tougher nut to crack. The Prime Minister will raise the issue this

:16:12.:16:16.

evening. He has to be careful. This is a summit about Eastern Europe and

:16:17.:16:19.

he does not want to sound like a broken record. He will say that we

:16:20.:16:24.

support enlargement, a broader rather than deeper European Union,

:16:25.:16:28.

but within the context of other poorer countries coming in, there

:16:29.:16:33.

has to be a proper policy to enable people to move between one country

:16:34.:16:39.

and another. This is not a summit particularly lending itself to what

:16:40.:16:41.

David Cameron would like to talk about. On the other issues of

:16:42.:16:48.

renegotiating powers, will you have an opportunity to raise that? I

:16:49.:16:56.

doubt it will be done in any significant degree, no. This is a

:16:57.:17:02.

long-term process. He will start to set things out, particularly on the

:17:03.:17:07.

issue of free movement. He knows this is difficult territory. He is

:17:08.:17:12.

caught between the minimum that many of his backbenchers would be

:17:13.:17:15.

prepared to accept, and the maximum that many other people in Europe may

:17:16.:17:21.

be prepared to offer. It may be a difficult process. It is only just

:17:22.:17:24.

beginning. This is one of a series of summits. I do not think that this

:17:25.:17:31.

is the specific time to go into all that detail, because other people

:17:32.:17:36.

would simply switch off. He has to make a show for his domestic

:17:37.:17:41.

audience. The leadership make much of Angela Merkel's listening mode.

:17:42.:17:48.

What about her social Democrat colleagues in coalition? Are they

:17:49.:17:56.

cooler on the idea? Yes, they are. Angela Merkel clearly wants to help

:17:57.:18:00.

David Cameron. She does not want Britain to leave the European Union.

:18:01.:18:05.

If he can -- she can help them, she will do that. If you look across the

:18:06.:18:11.

spectrum of German politics, most of the main parties are in favour of

:18:12.:18:17.

the EU. If you said to the average social Democrat in Germany, what

:18:18.:18:21.

about giving Germany control over social and employment policy? What

:18:22.:18:27.

about reassessing the entire principle of freedom of movement?

:18:28.:18:31.

They will say, not on your Nelly. That is a big problem. This new

:18:32.:18:38.

coalition government in Germany, still led by Angela Merkel, but with

:18:39.:18:45.

a strong element in it which is more pro-European and less inclined to do

:18:46.:18:50.

David Cameron a favour. With us now is Andrea Leadsom - one of those

:18:51.:18:53.

Conservative MPs who leads the Fresh Start Group - and Claude Moraes, a

:18:54.:18:57.

Labour Member of the European Parliament.

:18:58.:19:02.

Andrea Leadsom, let me come to you first, let me try to flesh out the

:19:03.:19:09.

strategy, is it your intention that Britain should renegotiate these

:19:10.:19:16.

powers for itself, or that all of the members of the European Union

:19:17.:19:19.

should have these powers repatriated? This mandate is about

:19:20.:19:28.

making the EU globally competitive. Obviously Britain wants a better

:19:29.:19:32.

deal. In getting a better deal it creates a better, stronger, more

:19:33.:19:35.

flexible, more democratically accountable European Union. That is

:19:36.:19:41.

what all Europeans want. What is the answer to my question? We are not

:19:42.:19:46.

just trying to get a better deal for Britain. The EU has a crisis of

:19:47.:19:52.

competitiveness. It is going nowhere. This is about trying to

:19:53.:19:56.

take leadership, to focus on getting a better deal for the EU. If there

:19:57.:20:02.

really is not an appetite for repatriation across the EU on this

:20:03.:20:09.

scale, would it still be Britain's intention to repatriate on this

:20:10.:20:16.

scale unilaterally? You see, this is not about repatriation. This is

:20:17.:20:21.

about reform of the EU. Under the headings of global competitiveness,

:20:22.:20:24.

urging the EU to do more to negotiate free-trade. Your questions

:20:25.:20:31.

are not the right ones. That may be because you cannot answer them. Not

:20:32.:20:36.

at all. I'm happy to answer your questions. This is about reform of

:20:37.:20:42.

the EU on the headings of creating greater global competitiveness, more

:20:43.:20:45.

flexibility and far greater democratic accountability. It's

:20:46.:20:52.

repatriating control over social and employment policy, it is opting out

:20:53.:20:56.

from policing and Criminal Justice Act it is taking back the CAP. They

:20:57.:21:09.

are all repatriation. It looks like repatriation. The point is that the

:21:10.:21:17.

EU share of global trade is in steep decline. I know all that. The EU

:21:18.:21:25.

needs to focus on how it can become globally competitive. Supposing the

:21:26.:21:31.

rest of the EU doesn't share your analysis. It may agree that it is

:21:32.:21:36.

becoming less competitive, but it does not think this is the way to go

:21:37.:21:40.

to make it more competitive, would it be Britain's intention to demand

:21:41.:21:48.

and take back these powers? We cannot do that unilaterally. That is

:21:49.:21:57.

what I am trying to find out. The fresh group of spent a lot of time

:21:58.:22:04.

travelling to Europe. European taxpayers and voters are keen on

:22:05.:22:08.

reform. What is the answer to my question? Do we proceed unilaterally

:22:09.:22:17.

if we cannot get a European majority for this, or don't we? The answer is

:22:18.:22:24.

that we will continue to propose EU reform. And in the event that we get

:22:25.:22:28.

nowhere, I suspect the people in 2017, will make their decision. What

:22:29.:22:37.

we cannot do is to remain in the EU. I see your questions are not the

:22:38.:22:43.

right ones, because we cannot simply unilaterally change all sorts of

:22:44.:22:48.

things. Let me try one more time. If the European Union generally says

:22:49.:22:56.

there is no broad appetite to go this far down the repatriation rued

:22:57.:23:00.

the way Britain wants to go, so do not count us in, will Britain

:23:01.:23:04.

attempt to repatriate these powers for itself? I'm not saying just walk

:23:05.:23:09.

out, will be attempts to repatriate these powers? We cannot. We cannot

:23:10.:23:17.

do it. This is a mandate for the reform of the EU. Not Britain's

:23:18.:23:23.

relationship with the EU. Would we don't go and say that Britain may

:23:24.:23:30.

not want to repay your -- and say, you may not want to repatriate these

:23:31.:23:34.

powers, but we want to? We cannot do that? We can do that. Unless all of

:23:35.:23:41.

Europe signed up to this, we cannot repatriate. The whole premise is

:23:42.:23:48.

wrong. This is not take it or leave it. This is several different areas,

:23:49.:23:53.

looking how to create a more successful European Union. Is Labour

:23:54.:24:01.

interested in repatriating powers? No, we are interested in reform.

:24:02.:24:07.

That is very different. This needs unanimity in many areas are majority

:24:08.:24:11.

in some areas. To be fair to Andrea, some of this document we would agree

:24:12.:24:19.

with. Some of it we would not agree with. It is a reform document. But

:24:20.:24:24.

it is not a negotiation in terms of a unilateral negotiation. Reform is

:24:25.:24:35.

an honest position. What reform is, is that you make your case with the

:24:36.:24:38.

rest of the members of the European Union. If you go to a referendum you

:24:39.:24:43.

make the case for Europe. You argue that case with the British public.

:24:44.:24:49.

You negotiate with your European partners. You do not make a

:24:50.:24:56.

unilateral case. Pretending to the British public that when you need

:24:57.:25:00.

unanimity, you don't. You did ask the right questions. We may go into

:25:01.:25:04.

a referendum sink to the British people, we can get these things,

:25:05.:25:09.

when in fact we cannot get them. The track record so far is that our

:25:10.:25:13.

European partners are saying, we're indifferent to this. I need to ask

:25:14.:25:26.

you another question. If it is the Labour approach that you want an

:25:27.:25:29.

overarching reform of the European Union, then you will have to get

:25:30.:25:33.

everybody to the table. That will take years. There is no prospect of

:25:34.:25:38.

that kind of reform this decade. That is happening right now. That is

:25:39.:25:43.

happening on the CAP right now. You have rolled your eyes on this many

:25:44.:25:49.

times. You are doing it now. Let me just tell you, and before you start

:25:50.:25:54.

as well, and, we started CAP reform. The point is we do it right

:25:55.:26:01.

now. You have to do it with your partners. One of the dangers of this

:26:02.:26:07.

is that -- is that if you misrepresent reform, you cannot do

:26:08.:26:10.

it with your partners. I resurrect death -- represent London. You have

:26:11.:26:17.

to work with your partners. We know all that. Can we just keep clear

:26:18.:26:25.

heads? There are only two ways that you can get this sort of reform. One

:26:26.:26:30.

is if everybody does agree. It would be a jolly good thing for the EU of

:26:31.:26:36.

that was the way. Second thing, new treaty, opt outs for Britain. I

:26:37.:26:40.

would say those are unlikely. Let us assume something did, this. This is

:26:41.:26:46.

crucial. That in 2017, Cameron comes to the country and says, I have got

:26:47.:26:51.

you a new deal. We will know what the scenario is for staying in.

:26:52.:26:54.

Nobody is telling us what the scenario is telling us what the

:26:55.:26:58.

scenarios for coming out. There is no work being done on other trading

:26:59.:27:05.

relations would be etc. I want an evenhanded referendum. I put it to

:27:06.:27:12.

you, Andrea Leadsom, there is no prospect of all of Europe agreeing

:27:13.:27:18.

to all of this by 2017? And I would completely disagree with you there.

:27:19.:27:24.

In fact, on various trips to European capitals, there is a huge

:27:25.:27:30.

appetite across the EU for reform. This is a set of very logically

:27:31.:27:33.

argued, carefully we searched reform ideas. There is support from some

:27:34.:27:43.

countries for some reforms. You definitely need a mechanism by which

:27:44.:27:50.

the EU can be prominently reformed. To get that, Andrea, you have to

:27:51.:27:53.

engage in Europe. This kind of exercise, if I could say, the way we

:27:54.:27:59.

are disengaging, is not helping us do what you are saying in this

:28:00.:28:05.

document. These kinds of reformers want us to engage in Europe and

:28:06.:28:11.

reform that way. That is the honest way to do it. To do it within the

:28:12.:28:17.

structures we have got now and to be honest with the British people about

:28:18.:28:19.

how we have got now and to be honest with the British people about how

:28:20.:28:26.

we're reforming... When you need unanimity and majority... What one

:28:27.:28:36.

policy could you get a majority on? There are all sorts of non-treaty

:28:37.:28:43.

reforms proposed. Getting out of Strasbourg, you need a treaty

:28:44.:28:51.

change. Structural fund reform, to fundamentally change structural

:28:52.:28:57.

fund, to change free movement of labour, some member states could

:28:58.:29:00.

have their own decisions about how to treat access to benefits. For

:29:01.:29:06.

example, those things could be done without unanimity. But what I really

:29:07.:29:10.

want to say here is there it is now a unique moment in history for

:29:11.:29:14.

reform. That is because of the eurozone crisis. The compulsion for

:29:15.:29:17.

eurozone member states to go towards greater fiscal union, means they

:29:18.:29:22.

need things to change. It is not really a question of can we achieve

:29:23.:29:28.

reform? It will be a case of what we can achieve and by when. It is for

:29:29.:29:34.

every member of this country to make their own decision. But the point

:29:35.:29:39.

is, there is a unique opportunity for reform and Europe is up for

:29:40.:29:46.

reform. We will see. If I had 100 quid for every time a politician

:29:47.:29:51.

told me Europe was up for reform, we could be doing this from Barbados!

:29:52.:29:58.

What happens if they are not up for reform? You made that point already.

:29:59.:30:10.

We have now added in stereo! Yesterday David Cameron said, it is

:30:11.:30:15.

something I am not fully capable of myself. He was talking about growing

:30:16.:30:21.

a moustache. He said the chamber was full of members who were suddenly

:30:22.:30:26.

resembling bandits. Why, you might ask? For the past month men around

:30:27.:30:30.

the world have been growing or attempting to grow some fine plumage

:30:31.:30:36.

on their upper lip for the charity Movember. In a moment we will be

:30:37.:30:41.

meeting three of them. But first we sent Adam Fleming to meet some of

:30:42.:30:44.

Westminster's finest moustaches. I am glad it does not show all that

:30:45.:31:03.

much. I actually do not like it, but it is for a good cause. My father

:31:04.:31:08.

died of prostate cancers though I do what I can to ensure other people do

:31:09.:31:12.

not suffer from this dreadful disease.

:31:13.:31:25.

You have actually been on the Daily Politics with your moustache, was a

:31:26.:31:30.

different being on the programme with a moustache? Having a moustache

:31:31.:31:36.

changes your life, especially going on television. You get so many

:31:37.:31:44.

interesting comments on Twitter. Someone said I looked like a 1970s

:31:45.:31:46.

pawn star. I tried growing a real moustache

:31:47.:32:07.

once, it did not work but I was determined to do something dramatic.

:32:08.:32:12.

I have raised over ?500 for prostate cancer just by tweeting that I would

:32:13.:32:17.

wear a false moustache. Mr Speaker was very kind. He gave me some very

:32:18.:32:22.

odd looks. I think I will wear better off now. Did that hurt? Not

:32:23.:32:29.

really, no. What an image. With that is now a

:32:30.:32:41.

trio of moustaches and their owners. Conservative MP George

:32:42.:32:45.

Freeman, John Woodcock and Roger Williams. We have gone across the

:32:46.:32:53.

parties. John, do you think uses your moustache? I have been told,

:32:54.:33:01.

almost universally know. My wife is watching today, making sure it comes

:33:02.:33:08.

off. She is absolutely repulsed by. You get grudging admiration from

:33:09.:33:13.

male friends. Not from the ladies. Absolutely. What about responses for

:33:14.:33:21.

you? I have tried many styles, this is the most successful. I do get

:33:22.:33:29.

admiration. I am pleased to say we have our viewers from Scotland

:33:30.:33:33.

joining us. At least they will not miss out on this wonderful display

:33:34.:33:38.

of moustaches. George, what about your question yesterday, you raised

:33:39.:33:43.

it with the Prime Minister? It is a great campaign, but there is a very

:33:44.:33:47.

important point. Prostate cancer is a silent killer. Movember has done

:33:48.:33:55.

something extraordinary. This is now the world's biggest prostate charity

:33:56.:34:00.

and my question was highlighting the change, the power of social media

:34:01.:34:05.

and I have a ten minute rule Bill honoured this week. It is a big

:34:06.:34:10.

revolution in medicine and the NHS have got to adapt to it. Is it still

:34:11.:34:16.

a taboo talking about prostate cancer? We are still trying to alter

:34:17.:34:22.

the culture that men have in talking about problems with their

:34:23.:34:26.

waterworks. Particularly going to doctors and talking about these

:34:27.:34:31.

issues. My advice is, go to your doctor, it might save your life. It

:34:32.:34:38.

is nice to see Movember now linking with mental health. Men are not good

:34:39.:34:43.

about talking about it. Has it actually raised awareness? That is

:34:44.:34:49.

the extraordinary thing about this charity, it has such a high profile

:34:50.:34:53.

and people see it all around the country. They may not start an

:34:54.:34:57.

explicit conversation about prostate cancer, but it has opened things up.

:34:58.:35:02.

I have learned so much more this month about it. This is one of the

:35:03.:35:08.

areas where the girls are ahead of us. This year I organised a virtual

:35:09.:35:15.

wall of support and got a lot of support from Parliamentary female

:35:16.:35:19.

colleagues. Women have been better at talking about their health care

:35:20.:35:23.

with each other, and many to catch up. Ann, what do you think of the

:35:24.:35:30.

campaign and the moustaches? Off with them! Ann is not a fan of

:35:31.:35:41.

facial hair at all. I am keeping mine until the end of the month.

:35:42.:35:49.

Have you done it before? I have done it quite a lot of times, but I was

:35:50.:35:54.

looking forward to a proper shave today, but I guess we are not having

:35:55.:36:01.

that and it is a disappointment. I am a Movember virgin. But I can

:36:02.:36:05.

would urge everyone, you can go to the website and donate every -- and

:36:06.:36:13.

donate now into December. Thank you very much. I think we will see a

:36:14.:36:17.

couple of you later on. Stage two and until the end of the show

:36:18.:36:21.

because Roger and John will be back, we have a little surprise in store.

:36:22.:36:28.

It will be interesting. I saw the Barbara's hand and it was

:36:29.:36:35.

shaking. Now, recent scandals such as the

:36:36.:36:48.

blacklisting of construction workers, LIBOR ringing and the midst

:36:49.:36:56.

NHS Foundation Trust as -- Mid Staffordshire foundation trust has

:36:57.:36:59.

shocked us all. A group of experts have urged the Government to give

:37:00.:37:08.

people confidence to speak out. One member of the Commissioners Gary

:37:09.:37:12.

Walker, the former chief executive of a Lincolnshire hospital and he

:37:13.:37:16.

spoke out about the culture of what he called sheer bullying in the NHS

:37:17.:37:20.

in an appearance before the Health Select Committee this year. In

:37:21.:37:27.

essence, there was clearly a lot of pressure to deliver the targets. It

:37:28.:37:32.

was a case of, this is going to reflect on me as an individual. At

:37:33.:37:42.

the same time, I am asking for help. This sort of situation escalates as

:37:43.:37:47.

we go through this. As the hospitals become awful, more threats are made.

:37:48.:37:55.

In the context of the culture of the NHS where you cannot speak out

:37:56.:38:00.

without fear of actions being taken towards you, you certainly cannot

:38:01.:38:05.

fail to hit the targets without threats being made to you. That was

:38:06.:38:11.

Gary Walker and he joins us in the studio. Give us a brief summary

:38:12.:38:15.

about what happened with your experiences as a whistle-blower? In

:38:16.:38:21.

2009 I blew the whistle on patient safety concerns. As a result of

:38:22.:38:27.

that, a number of events happened in terms of victimising and bullying

:38:28.:38:33.

me. Who was doing that? People above me, health authorities and others.

:38:34.:38:38.

They did not like that you had pulled back a cover to see what was

:38:39.:38:43.

going on? It was exposing things that would make it difficult for

:38:44.:38:48.

them in their roles. As we have seen from the Commissioners report today,

:38:49.:38:53.

people are more concerned with protecting the reputations of

:38:54.:38:56.

organisations and that can be at the expense of whistle-blowers. What had

:38:57.:39:00.

you attempted to do before you became a whistle-blower? In terms of

:39:01.:39:09.

leading up to that. Most whistle-blowers raise a concern, no

:39:10.:39:13.

one listens to them. They raise at a second time and no one listens to

:39:14.:39:19.

them. Most give up at that point. You went public, what then happened

:39:20.:39:24.

to you? I was then dismissed for some other reasons which we probably

:39:25.:39:31.

cannot go into. Then there was an arrangement made where the NHS paid

:39:32.:39:34.

hundreds of thousands of pounds buying my silence. I agreed to sign

:39:35.:39:40.

that compromise deal, as it was called at the time, because I owed

:39:41.:39:46.

money. Then about one year later, when the Francis Report came out and

:39:47.:39:50.

the Prime Minister got on the podium and said, no one was to blame. I

:39:51.:39:57.

thought, I know that is not the case. And so I decided to break my

:39:58.:40:02.

gagging order. It was a risk and I was threatened with being sued. As

:40:03.:40:07.

you saw in the clip, I had to appear in front of the Parliamentary select

:40:08.:40:12.

committee. Their verdict, which came out last month, was it was wrong of

:40:13.:40:18.

the NHS to threaten to sue me. Is it your opinion they went to these

:40:19.:40:22.

lengths against you, not just a close you down, but to intimidate

:40:23.:40:27.

any prospective whistle-blowers? I think the culture in the NHS, from

:40:28.:40:32.

what we have seen in Mid Staffordshire, the Francis Report,

:40:33.:40:39.

surveys over the years, staff are typically frightened to speak out.

:40:40.:40:42.

There have been various campaigns this year from various magazines to

:40:43.:40:48.

get staff to speak out. Jeremy Hunt has gone on record to say he wants

:40:49.:40:53.

to change the culture and has written to all organisations to say,

:40:54.:41:00.

you cannot gag anybody any more. In what way with these

:41:01.:41:05.

recommendations... What are the most important one that would, in your

:41:06.:41:09.

opinion, make a difference for someone in your position a couple of

:41:10.:41:13.

beers ago? If they had been implemented at the time, what

:41:14.:41:19.

difference would it have made? The report sets out a code. It is not an

:41:20.:41:25.

internal code of conduct, it is a code of practice we are hoping the

:41:26.:41:27.

Government will adopt and will become legally binding. It is a

:41:28.:41:34.

series of actions and organisation must take to prove they are open and

:41:35.:41:37.

honest in encouraging staff to speak out. Then they would have to report

:41:38.:41:43.

that publicly, what concerns were raised and action taken. If they

:41:44.:41:47.

were not doing that, we are recommending that regulators

:41:48.:41:53.

intervene and potentially take away their license to practice. If you

:41:54.:41:59.

are a hospital, should you be providing care if you cannot prove

:42:00.:42:02.

that you are encouraging people to is they -- to speak up about safety?

:42:03.:42:08.

Would it have stopped you from being fired? It would have made an open

:42:09.:42:15.

and transparent culture. I think it probably would have meant there was

:42:16.:42:19.

some honesty in the system, rather than people trying to cover their

:42:20.:42:23.

own backs. Ann, where are you on this? I think it is very important

:42:24.:42:29.

that people are allowed to complain internally. If people complain

:42:30.:42:34.

internally and are ignored, they should all be able to complain

:42:35.:42:38.

without sanction to the regulator concern. If they are still ignored,

:42:39.:42:43.

I think it is a question for them if they want to go public. Certainly,

:42:44.:42:48.

there should never be a bribe involved. A gagging arrangement is

:42:49.:42:56.

often a bribe. The problem is, if you say no more, a lot of very

:42:57.:43:02.

innocent people may go on suffering. The National Audit Office looked up

:43:03.:43:05.

all of these gagging orders and said there were thousands. There were so

:43:06.:43:09.

many that they could not look at all of them. We know historically that

:43:10.:43:14.

Lott has been covered up, but we do not know what is in that. Will the

:43:15.:43:22.

Government accept your code? We have had indications this is welcome. The

:43:23.:43:26.

level that the Government are interested in, it is not a wholesale

:43:27.:43:34.

change of the law. The law just needs tightening up and we are

:43:35.:43:38.

making recommendations about that. You need to go back to the basic

:43:39.:43:44.

problem. The basic problem is when a whistle-blower blows the whistle, it

:43:45.:43:48.

becomes all about the whistle-blower's actions and

:43:49.:43:52.

conduct. Did they do it in good faith? Even when you get to court,

:43:53.:43:57.

the question is all about the law of how the whistle-blower acted. Even

:43:58.:44:02.

the tribunal is not interested in what it was actually about. The

:44:03.:44:07.

corruption, the wrongdoing, whatever it is. This code is saying, this is

:44:08.:44:14.

the responsibility of organisations. If you are a Board of Directors, it

:44:15.:44:19.

is your responsibility to make sure your organisation is being open and

:44:20.:44:24.

honest. If there is a whistle-blower out there in the NHS now, before

:44:25.:44:30.

this code has come in, wondering what to do. Would the NHS treat them

:44:31.:44:34.

now any differently from the way they treated you? There is probably

:44:35.:44:40.

a good chance of that on the basis of the publicity. But it should be

:44:41.:44:47.

as a matter of course. I think it probably depends what they are

:44:48.:44:51.

raising concerns about. If they are raising concerns which are likely to

:44:52.:44:55.

reflect badly on the board of an organisation, they might find it is

:44:56.:45:00.

not necessarily in their interest and they may need to blow the

:45:01.:45:07.

whistle to an outside regulator. It is an interesting story and we are

:45:08.:45:10.

going to keep an eye on this. Thank you for explaining. Tomorrow, Nick

:45:11.:45:15.

Clegg is expected to put some more flesh on the bones of the

:45:16.:45:17.

Government's plans to increase the flexibility of parental leave. It's

:45:18.:45:21.

an aim of all the main parties - it was in the original Coalition

:45:22.:45:25.

Agreement - but so far the actual details have been a bit sketchy.

:45:26.:45:33.

That's something that concerns small businesses - and some Tory MPs - who

:45:34.:45:37.

worry that ministers may go too far in allowing mums and dads to switch

:45:38.:45:41.

between who stays home, and who goes back to work in the early months of

:45:42.:45:45.

their children's lives. It's a balance which is dividing opinion

:45:46.:45:47.

among the Coalition's backbench troops, as David Thompson has been

:45:48.:45:52.

finding out. To modern dads, to modern party

:45:53.:45:56.

leaders committed to giving both parents time off to look after their

:45:57.:46:01.

newborns. It is called flexible parental leave but it is causing a

:46:02.:46:05.

bit of a catfight over what it should mean. Oh, dear. I have heard

:46:06.:46:14.

so much about Lib Dem hobbyhorses. I think this may be another. The

:46:15.:46:19.

Liberal Democrats tend to be a little more progressive in the

:46:20.:46:24.

things they want to achieve. Maternity leave can be shared

:46:25.:46:29.

already. But ministers want to make it easier and start earlier in

:46:30.:46:33.

England, Scotland and Wales. What worries some Tory MPs is that the

:46:34.:46:37.

details will not be set in stone until after the bill is passed. The

:46:38.:46:43.

notice period given to employers may be reduced from 12 weeks to eight

:46:44.:46:48.

weeks. It concerns me that the minister is left with the power to

:46:49.:46:57.

define the time that may be allowed in this respect. That would happen

:46:58.:47:04.

at a later stage without the matter having primary legislation and going

:47:05.:47:10.

towards the house. The Government was advised to scrap parental leave

:47:11.:47:13.

altogether at one point. The idea came from a venture capitalist. It

:47:14.:47:19.

was dropped from his final report, however, but small businesses

:47:20.:47:27.

worried. Sometimes -- firms are struggling to take on staff. You

:47:28.:47:34.

need to be in a position to recruit a new member of staff. If somebody

:47:35.:47:39.

goes off for two months and comes back, you have do think about

:47:40.:47:43.

filling the vacancy twice, maybe even three times. That can be a

:47:44.:47:47.

heavy burden on a small business. Lib Dems think there are concerns

:47:48.:47:53.

may be misplaced. Small businesses are more flexible than any other

:47:54.:47:59.

businesses I know. They have always allowed for their individual

:48:00.:48:02.

employees, for their own particular circumstances, to be taken into

:48:03.:48:07.

account. And who knows? May be in the end Lib Dem and Tory MPs will be

:48:08.:48:13.

able to play nicely over this. I think we are talking about

:48:14.:48:17.

relatively fine details now. I know there will be discussions. We have

:48:18.:48:21.

managed to come through stormier waters than this, I can assure you.

:48:22.:48:26.

I think we will come up with something that every party can

:48:27.:48:31.

cohere around. At the moment, on flexible parental leave, some

:48:32.:48:36.

politicians are pulling in different directions. I'm joined now by Ros

:48:37.:48:39.

Bragg from Maternity Action. Welcome. And Ann Widdecombe is still

:48:40.:48:46.

with us. Do you think it is a good idea? Not if it goes to those

:48:47.:48:53.

extremes, no. Consider the employer. He has got somebody who is

:48:54.:48:57.

pregnant. She wants a year off in maternity leave. He has already got

:48:58.:49:02.

to recruit some videos, train them and, just as they are becoming an

:49:03.:49:07.

asset, he has to lay them off. -- recruit someone else. It is equally

:49:08.:49:14.

manageable if she says she is going off for six months and the husband

:49:15.:49:19.

is taking over for six months. But there is a problem if you

:49:20.:49:23.

continually chop and change. The employer never knows where he is.

:49:24.:49:29.

This is going to hinder the position of young women at work. If I was an

:49:30.:49:33.

employer faced with this legislation, I would employ people

:49:34.:49:37.

who are unlikely to ask to exercise it. They may argue that his

:49:38.:49:43.

short-sighted. What do you say to the point that shared parental leave

:49:44.:49:46.

in practice may be all right, but the practice -- the principle

:49:47.:49:54.

doesn't work? It is important that fathers and mothers have the chance

:49:55.:49:59.

to be primary carers, but also for employers to see both men and women

:50:00.:50:06.

taking extended work breaks. The suggestion we will see parents

:50:07.:50:09.

chopping and changing is a little bit exaggerated. As an organisation

:50:10.:50:12.

providing advice to parents, it would be unusual for parents to be

:50:13.:50:17.

looking for a model of leaf of that kind. In our discussions with the

:50:18.:50:22.

Government, we understood that it is in the right of the employer to

:50:23.:50:26.

reject an application for a lead if they are not happy with leave being

:50:27.:50:29.

taken in multiple breaks. It is a little misleading. Do you not like

:50:30.:50:34.

the idea of the ability to have that flexibility of perhaps mother

:50:35.:50:38.

staying at home for a while, and then the father? For the vast

:50:39.:50:45.

majority of parents, the current model provides for most of their

:50:46.:50:49.

needs. There are some families for whom this would be extremely useful.

:50:50.:50:55.

For employers to be able to have somebody back to help of the

:50:56.:50:59.

Christmas rush, for example, that is a useful option. If you have a

:51:00.:51:02.

father who can only get time off on the workplace is quiet, or chooses

:51:03.:51:06.

to take time off when the workplace is quiet, that is helpful. Isn't

:51:07.:51:13.

that just a consequence of modern life? People are juggling things

:51:14.:51:22.

much more. It is more progressive. Nick Clegg said it would be a

:51:23.:51:25.

Edwardian not to go down that route. I don't agree with that. Employers

:51:26.:51:30.

value stability and predict ability because they can make plans. If

:51:31.:51:34.

there is to be no chopping and changing, we don't need anything

:51:35.:51:39.

very new. The idea that this is to make extremely flexible so you can

:51:40.:51:43.

do that. It is not just one person. The employer may have six people

:51:44.:51:48.

wanting to swap their maternity and paternity arrangements. It seems to

:51:49.:51:52.

me to be a recipe for chaos. And it is Edwardian to be against chaos? I

:51:53.:51:58.

think the chaos has been overstated. Whenever there are

:51:59.:52:02.

suggested changes to parental leave, certain groups complain about it.

:52:03.:52:09.

For us, it is a matter of the Government is living up to the

:52:10.:52:12.

commitment it has given to be able to make family friendly arrangement

:52:13.:52:18.

in the UK. They complain because they have got a genuine concern.

:52:19.:52:23.

They are supposed to be running a business, making profits, taking on

:52:24.:52:27.

new employees, doing their bit for Britain. And Britain just makes

:52:28.:52:32.

their work arrangements chaotic. If you look around Europe, there are

:52:33.:52:35.

plenty of other businesses who have been running successfully. What

:52:36.:52:42.

about the issue of gender equality? The fact that a lot of business say

:52:43.:52:46.

they lose women who are extremely effective in the workplace, because

:52:47.:52:48.

they don't think it is family friendly enough? There are already

:52:49.:52:56.

arrangements that say you can go off for a year and still come back.

:52:57.:53:02.

There are arrangements that say that you can elect paternity leave

:53:03.:53:07.

instead. The question is how often you want those changes to be made

:53:08.:53:12.

and the degree of stability that employers can rely upon. If you know

:53:13.:53:15.

somebody is going off for a year, you know what you have to do. If it

:53:16.:53:19.

is three months and then another month, and then another month, then

:53:20.:53:24.

they change their minds again, that is where the chaos comes in. If you

:53:25.:53:28.

have a multiple number of mothers in the workforce, that's just compounds

:53:29.:53:33.

the problem. Gender equality, I am sick to the back teeth of these

:53:34.:53:39.

cliches. There is gender equality because the man can be the house

:53:40.:53:43.

husband if he wants to be. There is gender equality. What about some

:53:44.:53:49.

good business for Britain? There is gender equality. There is no need to

:53:50.:53:54.

extend this any further because men still have the opportunity to take

:53:55.:54:02.

parental leave? I think the shared parental leave proposals are quite

:54:03.:54:07.

use. In the direction of encouraging fathers to take leave. They fall far

:54:08.:54:11.

short of what is possible. I think the German model is an excellent

:54:12.:54:14.

model. Fathers take two months leave or more. The family get an

:54:15.:54:19.

additional two months of paid leave. In Germany, the take-up of

:54:20.:54:26.

leaf from fathers jumped to 30%. And Germany has not gone down the pan,

:54:27.:54:32.

has it? Use a productivity in Germany has not gone down the pan,

:54:33.:54:36.

they have their problems as well. I think what you will find is that the

:54:37.:54:47.

take-up of that is not so enormous. If this becomes, just like maternity

:54:48.:54:50.

leave when it came in, people did not rush to take a year off, it is

:54:51.:54:56.

something that grows over time. Employers would not be complaining

:54:57.:55:00.

if they did not have some reason. It does not sound as if there is going

:55:01.:55:05.

to be that much take-up. In a way, couldn't you let it grow

:55:06.:55:12.

organically? If there was a real clamour for it, fine but there

:55:13.:55:19.

isn't. Somewhere between 2% and 8% of fathers will take up the shared

:55:20.:55:21.

parental leave, according to the Government. It is quite worrying

:55:22.:55:24.

they're not putting in place the measures that would encourage

:55:25.:55:29.

further take-up. Should we just take a step backwards instead of making a

:55:30.:55:33.

move towards gender equality in the workplace? I don't think so. What

:55:34.:55:38.

about the issue as far as the Tory party is concerned about being a

:55:39.:55:45.

modernising party? Here we go again! Will this make them look as if there

:55:46.:55:50.

are going backwards if they renege on this? No. It will make them look

:55:51.:55:55.

as if they are exercising some common sense. People are worried

:55:56.:55:59.

about their energy bills, the cost of living, they are worried about if

:56:00.:56:02.

they can relax on the issue of job security. They are worried about how

:56:03.:56:07.

to afford Christmas. And in future, we say, mum and dad, you can just

:56:08.:56:15.

swap childcare. It is irrelevant. A final word from you? The

:56:16.:56:21.

Conservatives did commit in the manifesto to make in the UK the most

:56:22.:56:25.

family friendly country in Europe. It would be surprising if they walk

:56:26.:56:28.

backwards on this one. Thank you very much. We're walking backwards

:56:29.:56:33.

for Christmas. There's just time before we go to find out the answer

:56:34.:56:37.

to our quiz. The question was what have Gwent Police spent more than

:56:38.:56:40.

?13,000 on in an attempt to deter crime?

:56:41.:56:55.

I think it is a toss-up between the cats and the police officers,

:56:56.:57:01.

because they are the most ludicrous. I am going for the cats.

:57:02.:57:07.

The cats would have been right. But it was the cutout police officers. I

:57:08.:57:12.

saw one in a petrol station that it was quite lifelike. If I was going

:57:13.:57:19.

to rob the petrol station, within five seconds I would have realised

:57:20.:57:22.

it was a cardboard cutout and therefore not in danger. You may

:57:23.:57:27.

remember earlier, we were joined by three MPs who have been growing

:57:28.:57:31.

moustaches for charity. Well, two of them - John Woodcock and Roger

:57:32.:57:35.

Williams - have come back. And, in an exclusive for the Daily Politics,

:57:36.:57:39.

they have agreed to have their moustaches shaved off a couple of

:57:40.:57:43.

days early. To do the honours, we have Al from Pall Mall Barbers. I

:57:44.:57:52.

hope you have got a steady hand. Yes, I have. Start removing those

:57:53.:58:01.

moustaches. Here we go. It is goodbye to the

:58:02.:58:09.

moustache. It should be a cut-throat razor! We have to find out, John,

:58:10.:58:16.

how it feels to have lost that bit of hair on your upper lip, when it

:58:17.:58:29.

finally disappears. Don't just do half of mine! Finish it! Lets do

:58:30.:58:35.

Roger quickly and we can come back to it. While we see that, thanks to

:58:36.:58:45.

all of our guests. The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One

:58:46.:58:48.

now. I'll be on This Week tonight with Rory Bremner, Martin Sorrell,

:58:49.:58:51.

John Pienaar, Michael Portillo, Diane Abbott and Miranda Green. And

:58:52.:58:55.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories of the

:58:56.:58:59.

day. Do join me then. Bye-bye.

:59:00.:59:05.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by former Conservative minister Ann Widdecombe to discuss all the latest political news, including new proposals from the Conservative Fresh Start group to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS