16/12/2013 Daily Politics


16/12/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, with political strategist John McTernan and a look at plans to tackle slavery.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Waging war on modern-day

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slavery, the Government has published plans for tougher

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sanctions to tackle slavery and human trafficking. To tackle slavery

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and human trafficking. Tourism a has vowed to make eradicating the

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practice her personal priority. A report by the BBC into payoffs into

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senior managers... The Public Accounts Committee report says the

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corporation put its reputation at risk. Will another runway at

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Heathrow get liftoff? The Airports Commission is due to publish its

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recommendations tomorrow. And Christmas cheer is here, what

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political book would you like to find in your Christmas stocking?

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the first half of the

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programme today is political strategist, for the first half of

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the programme today is political strategist, former ad buyers to Tony

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Blair, amongst others, John McTernan, welcome to the programme.

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Now, we are in festive spirits today, we have even blown what is

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left of our amazingly large budget not on a Christmas tree, but we have

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got Christmassy music. First of all today, let's talk about politics,

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how is Ed Miliband doing? I think he is dull setting the national

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conversation, and he has been doing that since his party conference

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speech. -- still. David Cameron and Number Ten are spooked. Ed is doing

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something on housing today, I do not think the Tories know what to do

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about that. The Central Office responses that Labour presided over

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the worst recession in 100 years, but it is hard to blame Ed Miliband

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for that, he and Ed Balls did not sell mortgages to Americans who

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could not afford to pay them. What you have seen is Ed starting to

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perform as well as the party, there has been a like between him and the

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party in popularity, and he is getting to a place where people

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think, actually, this guy might be a Prime Minister. But the polls have

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stayed in the same place, steadily ahead but not by a massive margin,

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and even with the cost of living crisis, which most people would

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argue has set, if you like, the debate, there has not been any

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movement in that for Labour? I think that is actually good news for

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Labour, they have not got a fluctuating vote, they are backed by

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38% of the vote and sticking there, and they are sticking because the

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flow in politics is on the right, it is the Tory party and UKIP, that is

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where votes are going back and forth. The difficulty for David

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Cameron is that every single election in British history has been

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won in the centre, even Thatcher won in the centre, and he is tempted to

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go to the right to battle UKIP, and every time he does that, he does not

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bring you give voters to him, but more centre voters think, maybe Ed

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Miliband is the answer. The economy is, as everybody says, the thing to

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play for, and on that issue, the polls still indicate that Ed Balls

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and Ed Miliband are not trusted. Whatever you say, that link between

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saying they spent too much and messed up, public spending was far

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too big, that is why we are in the mess, that is the mantra from the

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Conservatives, it strikes a chord with many voters. The Obama campaign

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faced this even when he was president, and throughout the

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election campaign, Mitt Romney polled loads better on the simple

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question of who managed the economy better. Obama reframed it, because

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they polled better on the question, who would fight hardest for the

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middle classes? That is where we are at the moment, a battle of two

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frames. If you want to go to the factual one, you have got the Tories

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in the lead, but on the, do you understand me, are you on my side?

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Ed Miliband is creating space. That is the narrative both parties will

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follow, but is one of the reasons that Labour cannot get to 40% is

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because Ed Miliband has reached his popularity limit. You say he has

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improved, and maybe he has, but he has gone as far as he can in terms

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of popularity. Well, the first thing to say is that political parties,

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since 2001, have found it virtually impossible to get to 40% of the

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vote. The Tories have not done that in 21 years, Labour have not had

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more than that in 12 years. The public as a whole standing of

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political parties and giving them both more promiscuously to other

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parties. 38% looks terrible in historical terms, but it is a solid

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group of votes to hold onto. Does Ed want to get more? Of course, he

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wants a mandate for the he wants to bring in. Can the Tories get more

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than 35%? The fight, in a way, is an awful one between the Tories who,

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quite recover, they seem to have peaked, Labour cannot break through

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to 40, and we are still waiting for the moment when somebody says, you

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know what? Britain could be great again if we did this, and people are

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looking for that, the next step in the vision, on either side, if I am

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honest. Is Ed Balls a problem or a benefit as far as Labour is

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concerned? Should he stay? Everybody needs a bruiser, Ed Balls is a

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bruiser. You cannot have a front bench without somebody who is

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willing to throw punches. My favourite quote from Clinton's

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advisor is, if your business down somebody's throat, they cannot say

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bad things about you. -- if your fist is down somebody's throat.

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Without him, he would have a blander front bench. Is he clever? Easy a

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strategy -- is he a strategist? Yes, he is. Does he get on with Ed

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Miliband? In the end, in politics, anybody who goes into politics to

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find a friend has been misled. They don't really get on, do they? I

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don't know, and I don't care. The point is not to get on, the point is

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to work together well. Do they cover different sides of the street? Yes,

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could they be better in a harsher economic narrative? Yes, but Ed

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Balls is clear that Labour are sticking to the spending plans of

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the Tories, and that is a big thing to say. They are bringing together

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the kinds of discipline on Labour finances, if they were a government,

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that have not been done before. Next year is the testing ground for all

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the political teams on all sides, but I think Ed Balls has got the

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character for this, and it is hard to imagine who you would replace him

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with. Alistair Darling is the one that people talk about, but he is

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busy. He is saving the nation! Now, time for our daily quiz, and the

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question for today, which fictional spin doctor is sometimes said to

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have been based on our guest of the day, John McTernan? Is it Toby

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Ziegler from the West Wing, Malcolm Tucker from The Thick Of It,

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Borgen's Kasper Juul, right up to date with this quiz, or Bernard from

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Yes Minister? In a bit, we will get the correct answer from John.

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Something to look forward to! Now, a report into payoffs to senior

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managers at the BBC has accused it of cronyism and failing in its duty

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to protect public money. The Public Accounts Committee says that the

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payments revealed a system of oversight that was dysfunctional and

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broken. Some of the BBC bosses past and present were questioned by the

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committee back in September. The outgoing director of HR, Lucy

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Adams, was asked if she had viewed the additional payments to departing

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staff as sweeteners. When you look at the total amounts on severance,

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8% of that was spent above contractual... Ms Adams, my question

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was, we have been through that, my question was specific. Did you

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suggest to HR colleagues that these sort of payments should be viewed by

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them as sweeteners? Sweeteners? Yeah. That is a strange term. What

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we are talking about is enabling people to leave the business in a

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way that minimises disruption, that avoids legal risk, as a shorthand

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term possibly, but I do not recognise it. We asked the BBC trust

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for an interview, but no-one was available. They issued a statement

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that said, we greatly regret that licence fee payers were let down by

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this episode, they are untitled to expect that their money is spent

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wisely. Since 2009, the Trust has worked successfully to drive down

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senior manager pay, and we support Tony Hall's speedy action to impose

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a cap on severance payments in the future. That is now limited to

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?150,000. With me was the chair of the Public Accounts Committee,

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Margaret Hodge, welcome back to the programme. Can we be clear, are you

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accusing BBC executive and the Trust of wasting money, or are you saying

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they handled it badly? Both. I think that is the truth. I think they

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handled the process very badly, and if you had watched the whole of the

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hearing, you would have seen that members of the executive would

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disagree with each other as to what they knew, how and when, and members

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of the executive were disagreeing with the Trust as to who knew what

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and who authorised these payments. Did they waste money? Yes, they did,

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because they paid over the contractual commitments in a number

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of cases, the worst probably being the Mark Byford case, but he is not

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alone, where he got two years' salary, whereas his contractual

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commitment was just one. He got one year in lieu of redundancy, one year

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in lieu of redundancy, he should not have had that. Not an edifying

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spectacle to watch in terms of the blame game, you might call it, but

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in terms of wasting money, the US set the view of the former

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director-general Mark Thompson, who said the process save the money? --

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do you accept. People were paid beyond their contractual obligations

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but in order to avoid painful salaries for another year or so, so

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in a way, ironically, the BBC save money. -- paying for salaries.

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Cutting the top tier saves money, cutting salaries would also save

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money, but that does not justify then wasting money on giving people

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in that top tier more than they were contractually committed to. Lots of

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people have left the BBC, I meet people in the studio, not in the

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studio, in the building who have left the BBC. It is only the top

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tier who get these very generous payoffs. When we looked at it, the

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higher you were in the pecking order, the more you got. Of the very

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senior management team of four, three got one year's salary in lieu

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of salary, and two got above their contractual commitment. But if you

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pay someone on ?200,000 per year and extra 20,000 fans to leave, and they

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leave immediately because contractually they probably have to

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work out some long notice period, you have saved ?200,000, haven't

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you? The point is two things, one, in the case of Mark Byford, they

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wanted him to actually work his time, so there was no reason to pay

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him one year in lieu of notice. In a number of cases, I think three in

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total, people went to another job and still picked up the full

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redundancy pay. And let me just say, in other cases, people were given

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very generous payoffs to retrain, I think about 70,000, and consultancy

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to come back and consult at the BBC. So yes, over time, they saved money,

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because they cut the top tier, but that does not justify wasting

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licence fee payers' money. To put it into context, Jo, ?25 million was

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the amount spent on the top people's payoffs. ?25 million is

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half what Radio 4's budget is, two thirds of Radio 1's budget, so even

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in terms of the BBC, it is a lot of money, and I do not think licence

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fee payers want to see the money used in that way. Watching from the

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outside, John McTernan, the other point that is made by Lucy Adams in

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that clip we showed you is that people could have legally challenged

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the BBC, they could have said, we will take you to a tribunal that

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will cost millions potentially if you try to push us at the door more

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quickly. Well, it is probably stupid to put yourself in a position where

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you want to sack people but they can challenging, and secondly, you

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should have contracts which have high pay, but because of the high

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risk of leaving, they have conditions which say, you get paid a

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lot now but not much if you leave. When you follow all this stuff, the

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BBC trust seems to be in a complete muddle, who is in charge of the BBC

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in terms of oversight? That seems to be a failure of leadership. In the

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good old days, the chairman of the ABC would sort it out by knocking

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heads together, but I do not see there is that much wrong with that,

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you either go to full regulation, like the private sector gets in

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television, or do stick with what the BBC had. The BBC Trust thing, I

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am not clear the people who run that have any clue of what the governance

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is, the role they have to play. With a sitting on their hands? I think

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they did not know what was going on, and that is ridiculous. You cannot

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imagine that would have happened under the previous system. What

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about trust in the BBC? What has done to the reputation? Will blow?

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Of course, it has damaged the reputation, and there are literally

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thousands of wonderful people not being paid enormous salaries, like

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yourself, who produce wonderful, creative content, and make the BBC

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the institution that we love, and it is terrible, you are damaged by

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this! But let me also say that, hopefully, the new regime has got

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the message. Are they doing enough? Is there anything else you want to

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see done? Have they taken on board what you have said? The only

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question mark that I have, and time will tell, is the one John talked

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about, whether the governance is right, because what we found is, who

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was responsible, who knew what? We felt that, actually, things fell

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through the middle in that, and you want clear lines of accountability

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and responsibility for what is your and my licence fee payers' money. I

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hope we will get the BBC Trust next time. The government is publishing

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proposals to increase punishments fit human trafficking following a

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recent string of high-profile slavery cases in the UK. The draft

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Modern Slavery Bill will be the first of its kind in Europe when it

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is published today, but what is being proposed? The bill will

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increase the maximum prison sentence for offenders with prior convictions

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for serious sexual or violent offences from 14 years to life. A

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new post of anti-slavery Commissioner will be created. The

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idea is that that they will hold law enforcement and other organisations

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to account. The Modern Slavery Bill aims to consolidate the offence is

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used to prosecute those who enslave others into a single act. Alongside

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the legislation, a review into modern slavery commissioned by the

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Home Office and carried out by Labour MP Frank Field will also be

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published. Thank the other estimates that there are 10,000 victims of

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slavery in the UK, and some charities say the focus of the bill

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is too narrow and should offer more protection the victim 's. But

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Theresa May says tougher sentences will help reduce the number of

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slavery victims. We need to ensure that we have got the sentence that

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is right for the crime. This is a horrendous crime, people being

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forced into a life of misery and servitude, Labour or sexual

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exploitation or sometimes a life of crime. We need to get tougher on the

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slave drivers. If we can catch more of them, prosecute them and put them

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behind bars, there will be fewer victims in future. With me now is

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the Labour MP Frank Field, whose report into modern slavery is being

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published today. We also hoped to be joined by someone from the Home

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Office, but no one was available. They are all doing their Christmas

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shopping! 10,000 victims that you have said you think are going on in

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the UK, that is a shocking figure. How have you come up with that? Weak

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that is a figure from the human trafficking foundation my colleague,

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Fiona McTaggart, is doing digging on how we can get better data. The

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report today is clear that it is both about having an act which is

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prosecution friendly and does not trip up the prosecutors trying to

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get these individuals. But of course it is right for those organisations

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who have said it must be victim focused. They say that unless we are

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victim focused, we will not get more prosecutions. We should be more

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victim focused, because anyone who has spoken to a victim of slavery

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for a few minutes knows the devastating effect on their lives.

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Morally, we should do the right thing. But for once, by being moral,

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we are also being politically effective. What would you'll I to

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see being done? Our proposal will go to a giant committee of both houses

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after Christmas, and then the Home Secretary will make up her mind. We

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want two things. One is that whenever you seek help as a victim

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of modern slavery, you will get the same standard of help. But also, the

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Lord chief justice has been clear that the victims of slavery should

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not be prosecuted for crimes which it is clear that they committed only

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because of the pressure of the slave owner. People are still being sent

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to young people's institutions and prison, and it is a difficult task

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the Lord Chief Justice has given us. How receptive is Theresa May to

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this? I have just left the launch of our report, and she did not have to

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do this bill. Then why is she? The accusation is that it is a vanity

:19:52.:19:54.

project for her and has been rushed through. There are something about

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the centre-left that always wants to dispute people's motives. John will

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recognise this. They never actually look at what will come from this.

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She may have the best or worst motives, but that is irrelevant. She

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has not only started the process of the bill, which she did not have to

:20:14.:20:17.

do. She did not have too asked the panel I chaired to report on how to

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make it better. She did not have to make life difficult I having a giant

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committee of both houses consider the proposal. But will she consider

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your terms on not prosecuting the victims? We will be pushing hard on

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that. If the Lord Chief Justice once this, surely he will carry some

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weight. The government has to decide whether we have a good bill or a

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great bill which other countries look to as a model to follow. My

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guess is that a government with any sense will reach for the skies. Are

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you impressed that this sort of deal is being brought forward in a

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cross-party way and will lead the way in Europe in terms of

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legislation in this area? I think involving Frank shows how important

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this is as an issue. In the end, this has to be international. We are

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at a moment in time when there is more slavery in the world than ever

:21:21.:21:26.

in history, which is shocking. To counter that, we have to deal with

:21:27.:21:29.

this with proper policing and intelligence. It is cross-border

:21:30.:21:32.

traffic, so it has to be done openly. I think Theresa May feels

:21:33.:21:40.

passionately about this. There are issues about the full

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implementation, but we need to tie this more closely to the work we do

:21:46.:21:52.

internationally against slavery in other countries where it is more

:21:53.:21:55.

tolerated. We use slave to goods all the time in Britain, and we

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shouldn't. Frank, you said focusing on the victims is not only a moral

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issue, but will also help push up the number of prosecutions. Why do

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you think that? It is the convictions we are after, beyond the

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prosecutions. John is right in that it is not just slavery in our own

:22:23.:22:27.

country. Some slaves are clearly recruited within our own borders,

:22:28.:22:32.

but we are suggesting two things. One is that the prime minister

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pushes the issue at G8 summit. Since apartheid, the Commonwealth has not

:22:38.:22:41.

had a great big moral issue around which it can group. I am hoping the

:22:42.:22:46.

prime minister puts this to the Commonwealth and says, instead of

:22:47.:22:49.

fighting amongst ourselves, why don't we get a really important

:22:50.:22:53.

issue and put our efforts into that? But you want to get the

:22:54.:22:56.

legislation on the statute book here first. Extending support to victims

:22:57.:23:02.

beyond the 45 days allotted to process their case has been raised.

:23:03.:23:08.

Victim charities say it will not be in the legislation, is that right?

:23:09.:23:13.

It does not have to be in the legislation. Why should

:23:14.:23:21.

organisations working in the field know the difference between what you

:23:22.:23:25.

need a law to do and what you have already got the power to do as Home

:23:26.:23:28.

Secretary? The Home Secretary wants a new act of Parliament so that she

:23:29.:23:36.

has got additional powers. Of course we will press for more than is in

:23:37.:23:42.

the bill. The worry is that a lot of your research will not end up in the

:23:43.:23:48.

final bill. I think that once it gets into the House of Lords, the

:23:49.:23:50.

government has less control over it. It is bad enough when they try

:23:51.:23:58.

and control it and they lose it. Theresa May wants this to be the

:23:59.:24:03.

best will in the world. She has made that clear. One also heard this

:24:04.:24:09.

morning from Yvette Cooper, who supports it.

:24:10.:24:16.

The year is 2017. A government committed to either reforming

:24:17.:24:19.

Britain's relationship with the EU, or failing that, a referendum on

:24:20.:24:24.

whether to leave altogether, is in power. But what might that

:24:25.:24:28.

renegotiation process looked like, and how might the talks pan out?

:24:29.:24:32.

Well, we can give you a games of how it might work, tanks to the

:24:33.:24:37.

think-tank Open Europe. They organised a role-playing exercise

:24:38.:24:40.

which tried to get as close as it could to what might happen in just a

:24:41.:24:46.

few years' time. European leaders gather round the

:24:47.:24:50.

conference table to thrash out one of the most important political

:24:51.:24:53.

issues of our time, the future of the EU and Britain's place within

:24:54.:24:59.

it. These talks have one aim - to determine Britain's future

:25:00.:25:03.

relationship with Europe. Should it renegotiate and stay in, or could

:25:04.:25:09.

the British exit from Europe become a reality? This is not for real, it

:25:10.:25:13.

is a war game organised by the think-tank damn Ann, but after the

:25:14.:25:17.

next election, something very much like it could happen -- it was

:25:18.:25:22.

organised by the think-tank Open Europe. We bring in people who have

:25:23.:25:26.

to play in character, negotiating the fundamental issues over European

:25:27.:25:32.

reform. So the French are obstreperous. The Dutch want

:25:33.:25:34.

everyone to get along, and the British try to stay in Europe, but

:25:35.:25:41.

on that terms. And we will see what happens so that we can look at the

:25:42.:25:44.

simulation and see if that is how the real world will work. First,

:25:45.:25:49.

renegotiation, keeping us in a reformed EU. Britain was played by a

:25:50.:25:54.

Tory MP and it seemed to be going quite well, until this happened. If

:25:55.:25:58.

Britain is the only country not taking part in the Eurozone and we

:25:59.:26:07.

have not formed the new architecture of the EU, we will not hold Britain

:26:08.:26:11.

back from leaving the EU. Which left Britain somewhat un-chuffed. In

:26:12.:26:19.

spite of the fact that Britain has a permanent opt out of ever joining

:26:20.:26:22.

the euro, is it really fans's national position that if we are

:26:23.:26:25.

simply not prepared to change our minds, we may as well leave? But not

:26:26.:26:31.

entirely alone. The real wild card was the Nordic region negotiator,

:26:32.:26:37.

who was extraordinary supportive and quite antagonistic towards the

:26:38.:26:41.

French position, which was to kick Britain out. I was cheering inside

:26:42.:26:47.

for her. Which took us to part two, the negotiation of a British exit

:26:48.:26:51.

from the EU altogether, led by a former Foreign Office minister who

:26:52.:27:01.

was not popular around the table. You will be more and more isolated,

:27:02.:27:05.

I think. Despite that, David thought the only way for us to stay in was

:27:06.:27:11.

to threaten to get out. They will only get serious if they understand

:27:12.:27:14.

that if we don't deliver a substantial package of reforms, we

:27:15.:27:18.

will leave. After all that, what did we learn? It was excruciating. It

:27:19.:27:27.

will not be simple at all. It will be very tough to make this decision.

:27:28.:27:31.

Whatever you do, there will be negatives and pluses. If that was

:27:32.:27:36.

all that came out of this, it was worth the time.

:27:37.:27:42.

Something you could take part in in a few years' time, how to

:27:43.:27:44.

renegotiate Britain's relationship with the EU. Is it possible? I don't

:27:45.:27:53.

think it is necessary. We are in a strange situation where, in my view,

:27:54.:27:55.

David Cameron is putting partisan interest above those of the

:27:56.:28:01.

country. It would undoubtedly be a disaster for Britain to leave the

:28:02.:28:04.

European Union. David Cameron knows that, but his party wants to have

:28:05.:28:13.

this thing in the future. He also knows that most of what he wants to

:28:14.:28:17.

change in Europe, he can already do under existing treaties. So in one

:28:18.:28:21.

sense, it is theatre, but it is dangerous because there are people

:28:22.:28:26.

who want Britain out of Europe. Some of them are outside his party, and

:28:27.:28:30.

he should argue with his party and see that this is good for Britain,

:28:31.:28:36.

so the Tory party should not flirt with the possibility of leaving.

:28:37.:28:39.

He's playing with fire not because he believes in it, but because it

:28:40.:28:44.

gives him an easier life. But he has made it clear that by offering a

:28:45.:28:48.

referendum on a renegotiated on a ship with the EU, he would campaign

:28:49.:28:53.

to stay in. So he has made his position clear, and surely all

:28:54.:29:01.

parties in government put their parties to the fore when it comes to

:29:02.:29:05.

these issues. Hasn't he answered his Eurosceptic critics by saying, the

:29:06.:29:09.

referendum is what you want, so wait till after the election? But he's

:29:10.:29:16.

not answering the question, what is the problem with Europe? Well, he

:29:17.:29:23.

wants reform. I was in Berlin last week, and there seems to be sympathy

:29:24.:29:26.

to an extent the reforming the commission and tightening up some of

:29:27.:29:31.

the institutions and trying to get more accountability. You are right

:29:32.:29:34.

that those things may not achieve a lot, but he does have some hearing

:29:35.:29:41.

for that. He has got people who are tolerant of this pantomime. He wants

:29:42.:29:46.

reform, they say they want reform . We know how slowly reform takes

:29:47.:29:52.

place. David Cameron is the prime minister and has not touched the

:29:53.:29:55.

civil service. He runs it and could reform it, but he prefers to talk

:29:56.:30:00.

about this thing that will take far longer and takes 28 other countries

:30:01.:30:06.

to sign up to. He needs to take the beam out of his own eye. So

:30:07.:30:11.

renegotiation is not really necessary. What about a referendum?

:30:12.:30:18.

It is ridiculous. People want it. I don't care. People want the death

:30:19.:30:23.

penalty back. If you ask people if they want a referendum, most voters

:30:24.:30:27.

say, of course. They like to be asked. If asked, do they think

:30:28.:30:33.

Europe is one of the critical issues facing Britain, they will not put

:30:34.:30:37.

Europe there. Then why is Ed Miliband not being clear about what

:30:38.:30:41.

Labour would do in terms of a referendum?

:30:42.:30:49.

In the end, what I would do in his position as say, do you know what?

:30:50.:30:53.

This referendum is about party management, it is not in Britain's

:30:54.:30:58.

interest. If you want this stunt, calm down your party. We will have a

:30:59.:31:02.

government after the election, and you can still fight afterwards. If I

:31:03.:31:06.

win, you can still be fighting about Europe. The best thing for Ed

:31:07.:31:10.

Miliband is to keep a wedge between the Tories and UKIP for as long as

:31:11.:31:14.

possible, let them fight each other about who is more pure about

:31:15.:31:19.

Europe. This is not a fight that is in the country's interest, not a

:31:20.:31:22.

fight people are arguing about in pubs and clubs up and down the

:31:23.:31:26.

country. Compared to the NHS, education, compared to getting the

:31:27.:31:34.

housing market sorted, it has no big impact on people's way of life. It

:31:35.:31:40.

is a very, very strange debate, and Ed should have nothing to do with

:31:41.:31:43.

it. De think there will be a referendum after the election? No, I

:31:44.:31:50.

don't. You think whatever happens there will not be a referendum on

:31:51.:31:57.

our relationship with the EU? Look, I think that a Labour government

:31:58.:32:02.

would not have a referendum, because it is strategically very silly to

:32:03.:32:05.

have a referendum, to have your term dominated by that issue. Just

:32:06.:32:10.

quickly, before you go, don't forget about the answer to the quiz, which

:32:11.:32:15.

fictional spin doctor is said to be based on you? Toby Ziegler from the

:32:16.:32:20.

West Wing, Malcolm Tucker from The Thick Of It, Borgen's Kasper Juul,

:32:21.:32:25.

or Bernard from Yes Minister? Well, I am meant to be Malcolm Tucker, but

:32:26.:32:33.

I think I am Jamie. Is that right? I think Malcolm Tucker is really

:32:34.:32:39.

Alistair Campbell. Malcolm Tucker, the man full of expletives, are you

:32:40.:32:44.

more aggressive to people behind the scenes than you have been on the

:32:45.:32:49.

show? I am the same off the show as an! When I went to Australia to work

:32:50.:32:56.

for Julia Gillard, people thought, he is Scottish, he must be Malcolm

:32:57.:33:00.

Tucker, and I did not bothered is abusing them of that. I am sure you

:33:01.:33:06.

didn't! It is useful to have that reputation. What about those leaked

:33:07.:33:10.

e-mails, some of them were rather rude! Do you regret that? Do think,

:33:11.:33:15.

I should have written e-mails if they were going to be reprinted on

:33:16.:33:19.

the front page of newspapers? Nobody expects the males to be stolen from

:33:20.:33:24.

their workplace. But look, that is ancient history. -- e-mails. We will

:33:25.:33:31.

leave it there, thank you for being guest of the day.

:33:32.:33:34.

Let's look at the political agenda for the week ahead, later today the

:33:35.:33:39.

Home Secretary is in front of the Home Affairs Select Committee for a

:33:40.:33:44.

one-off annual session. On Tuesday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and Sir

:33:45.:33:47.

David Nicholson, chief executive of NHS England, give evidence to the

:33:48.:33:51.

Health Select Committee. Tuesday also sees the publication of the

:33:52.:33:56.

Davis report into that you just of UK airports. It is the last PMQs

:33:57.:33:59.

before Christmas on Wednesday. On Thursday, school is out! The House

:34:00.:34:04.

of Commons rises and MPs go for their Christmas holidays. Joining us

:34:05.:34:08.

to discuss what they will be doing before that, Kate Devlin from the

:34:09.:34:11.

Herald and Sam Coates from the Times, welcome to both of you. Kate,

:34:12.:34:17.

a round-up, if you like, of the year since we are approaching the end of

:34:18.:34:21.

term, let's look at that Scottish referendum, where do things stand

:34:22.:34:25.

for the two campaigns? They stand pretty much where they stood this

:34:26.:34:28.

time last year, which is interesting when you think about how much has

:34:29.:34:32.

happened, how much mud has been slung from both sides. It does not

:34:33.:34:36.

seem as if the polls have changed, it does not seem as if either side

:34:37.:34:40.

is particularly getting momentum, but of course that is not to say

:34:41.:34:43.

that it cannot happen in the next year as we get closer to the

:34:44.:34:47.

referendum finally happening. But also, what it does do is mean that

:34:48.:34:53.

any change in the opinion polls, even very small towards yes, will be

:34:54.:34:58.

seen as momentum, and could start to build some momentum. There are

:34:59.:35:01.

dangers for both sides in the fact that the polls appear not to have

:35:02.:35:07.

moved at all. Sam, the state of the coalition, how would you summarise

:35:08.:35:11.

the state of the coalition now in December 2013? It is interesting,

:35:12.:35:15.

actually, that it has held together so well. Long. We have just had an

:35:16.:35:19.

Autumn Statement that was described as one of the most harmonious there

:35:20.:35:25.

has ever been. -- for so long. Different impetus from the two

:35:26.:35:30.

backbenchers, and a huge desire from the respective party leaders to show

:35:31.:35:34.

as much distance from one another, but it seems like at the top more or

:35:35.:35:38.

less it is functioning. There are difficult issues, particularly

:35:39.:35:42.

around Europe, and some elements of immigration, and the kind of

:35:43.:35:45.

controls the Tories want to bring in, but I think the basic

:35:46.:35:50.

architecture of the coalition is still working. But sort of more

:35:51.:35:53.

worryingly, I think, are the political pressures that are coming

:35:54.:35:58.

to bear on both the Tories and the Lib Dems, and over because of the

:35:59.:36:01.

last 12 months neither party has seen a particular uptick in their

:36:02.:36:06.

fortunes. Labour have somewhere around a 7-point lead, meaning that

:36:07.:36:10.

both Tories and the Lib Dems are starting to feel and increasing

:36:11.:36:15.

urgency to do something, do anything, ahead of the general

:36:16.:36:18.

election in 2015, something big and striking that might change the way

:36:19.:36:21.

that voters look at them. At the moment, there is no sign of them

:36:22.:36:26.

having found that. Put your answers on a postcard! What about Labour? We

:36:27.:36:32.

have just been discussing with John McTernan about what they need to do,

:36:33.:36:35.

bearing in mind the polls have not really moved there either. A lot has

:36:36.:36:40.

moved for Labour, HMO to do, bearing in mind the polls have not really

:36:41.:36:43.

moved there either. A lot has moved for Labour, H multi was year with a

:36:44.:36:45.

lot happening, a terrible summer... A lot of those questions were

:36:46.:37:00.

answered during the party conference. But they appear to have

:37:01.:37:06.

a fairly steady lead in the polls, and it is a lead that some of their

:37:07.:37:11.

own MPs are worried will crumble as we get closer to a general election.

:37:12.:37:17.

What about the economy, Sam? We have a clear narrative, Labour talking

:37:18.:37:22.

about the cost of living, the Conservatives wanting to focus on

:37:23.:37:26.

the bigger picture, on the, if you like. Is that how it is going to

:37:27.:37:33.

stay until the general election? George Osborne wants to maximise

:37:34.:37:36.

GDP, however that might be, whether it is increasing the value of houses

:37:37.:37:40.

or through targeted tax breaks of the sort we saw in the Autumn

:37:41.:37:43.

Statement, and he is hoping that he can go into 2015 being able to say,

:37:44.:37:48.

we made a lot of progress fixing the economy, but let us finish the job.

:37:49.:37:53.

The Conservative Party, indeed the whole coalition, have got

:37:54.:37:57.

increasingly distracted by the arguments Labour have been making

:37:58.:37:59.

about the cost of living, and how people are not feeling their share,

:38:00.:38:05.

their share of the benefits that an uptick in terms of the GDP numbers

:38:06.:38:09.

suggests. So there has been an awful lot of argument inside the coalition

:38:10.:38:13.

about whether or not to play on Labour turf and take on some of the

:38:14.:38:16.

issues they have been addressing. There is no doubt we should be

:38:17.:38:22.

around 2% around the time of the 2015 general election, but as Obama

:38:23.:38:25.

showed in America, you can win an election not being the candidate is

:38:26.:38:31.

thought manages the overall economy best, so long as you are the team,

:38:32.:38:37.

as it were, that stands up for people's interests and helps the man

:38:38.:38:40.

on the street, the voter at the ballot box, with their own issues.

:38:41.:38:46.

Very briefly, Kate, will the question still be from Labour, do

:38:47.:38:50.

you feel better than 2015 and 2010? It will be, and within that lies

:38:51.:38:57.

quite a few dangers. All the advice seems to be that we are going to

:38:58.:39:03.

enter a period of a few years and it will take a while for it to trickle

:39:04.:39:08.

down into pockets. We are joined for the rest of the

:39:09.:39:13.

programme by Conservative MP Harriett Baldwin, Labour impede Lisa

:39:14.:39:17.

Nandy, and Liberal Democrat MP Lynne Featherstone, welcome to you all.

:39:18.:39:22.

We're also joined by broadcaster and campaigner Esther Rantzen, because

:39:23.:39:25.

first of going to talk about the Care Bill, which is due to be

:39:26.:39:29.

debated in the House of Commons this afternoon. -- first off. Before we

:39:30.:39:33.

get into the details of the cap that everyone is talking about in terms

:39:34.:39:36.

of what you can get from the Government to pay for your care, how

:39:37.:39:43.

well is Silver Line working? It is a free, confidential telephone line, I

:39:44.:39:49.

will not sing the number to you! It is Christmas, you can! We have had

:39:50.:39:55.

20,000 calls, and the biggest single problem that older people are

:39:56.:39:58.

bringing to us is loneliness, and I think it is very relevant to the

:39:59.:40:04.

Care Bill. Loneliness erodes everything, and perhaps the saddest

:40:05.:40:07.

thing, as well as the physical impact, which has been described as

:40:08.:40:12.

more dangerous than smoking or obesity, because you do not look

:40:13.:40:16.

after yourself, because as one lady would to me, I feel my life is

:40:17.:40:21.

hopeless, I am a waste of space. Now, what that does is it means that

:40:22.:40:29.

depression can lead, well, we have saved lives from people who were

:40:30.:40:34.

really feeling suicidal, so it is loneliness that we have focused on,

:40:35.:40:37.

and I think the Care Bill has a lot to offer. The Care Bill will look,

:40:38.:40:42.

and we will find out more from our other guests, but it will look at

:40:43.:40:46.

the length of time of visits that are given to old people on their

:40:47.:40:52.

own. 15 minutes, does that do it? Of course it doesn't. What people say

:40:53.:40:56.

to us is, what they really want is a good chat. In fact, people tell me

:40:57.:41:01.

that the first thing that an older person will say to a carer is, would

:41:02.:41:05.

you like a cup of tea? And what they be lean mean is, can we have a cup

:41:06.:41:10.

of tea together? -- what they really mean. That needs does not diminish

:41:11.:41:15.

as you get older, and the care people need is not just the

:41:16.:41:20.

physical, washing or reading all toilet, which may take longer than

:41:21.:41:24.

15 minutes. It is also that bit where you sit down and just say, how

:41:25.:41:30.

are you feeling today? What do you think about Strictly? Have you seen

:41:31.:41:34.

the kids recently? That is what people bring the Silver Line four.

:41:35.:41:37.

Because they want contact, and that is why people on their own sometimes

:41:38.:41:42.

go to their GP, because they just need somebody to talk to. How long

:41:43.:41:47.

is needed for a carer to spend with an elderly person, or somebody on

:41:48.:41:54.

their own? Our phone calls tend to last 40 minutes. That is the length

:41:55.:41:59.

of time. If professional carers cannot offer that time, maybe they

:42:00.:42:02.

could link up with volunteers who could be making a cup of tea, who

:42:03.:42:07.

could be settling down with a newspaper and talking about current

:42:08.:42:09.

events while the more practical things are going on. Do you know, a

:42:10.:42:15.

policeman in the north-western rang the Silver Line and said, some older

:42:16.:42:18.

people are committing petty crimes in order to get a hot meal and a

:42:19.:42:22.

chat in the evening? That is desperate, isn't it? 15 minute is

:42:23.:42:28.

not long enough, is it? It is wonderful to hear about the sort of

:42:29.:42:31.

thing is that so many wonderful charities are doing to help

:42:32.:42:35.

loneliness among older people at Christmas, but you are right that

:42:36.:42:38.

the Care Bill is going to tackle one of the issues, which is the fact

:42:39.:42:42.

that people have been facing this completely unpredictable and

:42:43.:42:45.

unlimited liability in old age, so it is more of a financial solution,

:42:46.:42:49.

where about ?2 billion is being put into extend the certainty that

:42:50.:42:54.

people have around the amounts they are going to have this bend on

:42:55.:42:56.

terror. But of course, you are right, my counsel is trying to

:42:57.:43:11.

bend... -- amounts they are going to have to spend on care. What about

:43:12.:43:16.

extending that length of time to half an hour? That would make a

:43:17.:43:19.

massive difference to a lot of people. There will be councils where

:43:20.:43:25.

they put a focus on that, but it is very much something that will be

:43:26.:43:28.

assessed by the individual. At the same time, I think what we are doing

:43:29.:43:33.

today with the bill is putting some security around that financial

:43:34.:43:38.

limit. Let's see how much security is being put around those costs,

:43:39.:43:42.

because the cap is at ?72,000, is that right? My concern is, what is

:43:43.:43:51.

included in the cap, because the reports today predict that many of

:43:52.:43:55.

the costs will not be included, which means you will have to spend

:43:56.:43:58.

farm or before you actually breached the cap level and the government

:43:59.:44:05.

step in. -- spend far more. The average person will have to spend

:44:06.:44:10.

?150,000 before that cap kicks in, so it is because it does not take

:44:11.:44:15.

into account the gap between what a care placement actually costs and

:44:16.:44:18.

what a council is prepared to pay for that care placement. People will

:44:19.:44:22.

have to fund those costs themselves. The difficulty with that is that a

:44:23.:44:25.

lot of this was designed to make sure that people have the certainty

:44:26.:44:29.

that Harriet talks about and that they did not have to sell their

:44:30.:44:32.

homes when they have worked hard. Unfortunately, this will do nothing

:44:33.:44:36.

to address it in its current form. It really is time for the government

:44:37.:44:40.

to look seriously at what Andy Burnham is proposing, which is to

:44:41.:44:44.

bring together health and social, to give people decent support to be

:44:45.:44:48.

able to live in their own homes. We will come back to that, but it looks

:44:49.:44:52.

like people are still going to have to sell their homes, if you have to

:44:53.:44:57.

spend ?150,000 to get to the cap level, for most people that is their

:44:58.:45:03.

home. This bill is about people not being frightened, not

:45:04.:45:05.

scaremongering, not having to sell their home at the ?72,000 cap. I

:45:06.:45:11.

will come to it in a moment, but the main thing that has been worrying

:45:12.:45:14.

people is whether they will have to leave their homes in order to pay

:45:15.:45:17.

for care. They will no longer have to do that. There is a cap of 72 and

:45:18.:45:23.

deferral of paying it until after... Will it cover residential

:45:24.:45:28.

costs? It's did not do that under Labour, it did not do it under Andy

:45:29.:45:36.

Burnham, and free personal Ken Scotland does not cover

:45:37.:45:41.

accommodation. Will it cover the gap between... ?72,000 is the cap from

:45:42.:45:48.

2016, so I think you are being very naughty, because you are arguing

:45:49.:45:53.

something that you have never argued in the 13 years you were in

:45:54.:45:57.

government. Will it cover the cost of living? Will it cover

:45:58.:46:02.

accommodation? No, I have been absolutely clear. I have said it

:46:03.:46:08.

will not cover hotel accommodation costs. Will it cover the gap between

:46:09.:46:14.

cost and what people pay? You are talking about the level of care

:46:15.:46:17.

between a council and the level of care you would pay privately, there

:46:18.:46:20.

would be a gap because most private care costs more, will that be

:46:21.:46:29.

covered? When people go into care at the moment, they are expected to put

:46:30.:46:35.

money into the pot to help care cover their live in costs. I wonder

:46:36.:46:39.

whether Lisa is making a massive unfunded spending commitment here.

:46:40.:46:47.

When we say we want to give older people the centre 's -- certainty

:46:48.:46:54.

they deserve... Why did Labour do nothing about it? Wrote that is a

:46:55.:47:08.

bit rich coming from your party. Do women argue about politics the same

:47:09.:47:11.

way men do? It is interesting sitting here. Here is the thing I

:47:12.:47:14.

would like to throw into this mix. I had a masterclass on the Care Bill

:47:15.:47:18.

and the funding, and at the end of it, I still did not understand it. I

:47:19.:47:23.

think people argue about what it covers and does not cover. The other

:47:24.:47:27.

thing is, I have sold my family home. What many older people are

:47:28.:47:35.

saying is that they would like to move. To a smaller property? To an

:47:36.:47:43.

appropriately built type of accommodation with community areas.

:47:44.:47:48.

Then we should be honest about that. We should not pretend they would not

:47:49.:47:54.

have to move. Sorry to bang on about loneliness, but it is such a big

:47:55.:48:00.

problem and if we cared for old people properly, they could share a

:48:01.:48:02.

common vision and enjoy each other's company.

:48:03.:48:06.

Now, the government says it has not ruled anything out when it comes to

:48:07.:48:10.

airport expansion. Crucially, that could mean building an extra runway

:48:11.:48:13.

at Heathrow. Tomorrow, the commission is looking at this and

:48:14.:48:19.

will publish an interim report, but could there be a split in the offing

:48:20.:48:23.

among senior Conservatives? George Osborne is said to favourites

:48:24.:48:28.

banding Heathrow. The mayor of London, Boris Johnson, is dead

:48:29.:48:31.

against the idea. The Conservatives promised to block an extra runway at

:48:32.:48:36.

the last election, but what about after 2015? The Conservative MP for

:48:37.:48:40.

Richmond in west London is Zac Goldsmith. He told Newsnight last

:48:41.:48:44.

week that a change of position would be disastrous for the prime

:48:45.:48:49.

minister. David Cameron has to think carefully about this. Politically, a

:48:50.:48:52.

U-turn on this issue would be catastrophic for him . David Cameron

:48:53.:48:56.

went to every constituency affected and stood up and said no ifs, no

:48:57.:49:02.

buts, there will be no Heathrow expansion. This was not a throwaway

:49:03.:49:07.

line, he went to places like Richmond to deliver that line. On

:49:08.:49:11.

the back of it, people voted for him, so if he does a U-turn on this,

:49:12.:49:15.

he will never be forgiven in West London. People outside of West

:49:16.:49:18.

London who perhaps don't care about Heathrow will also take note. They

:49:19.:49:25.

will wonder how many other promises can be trusted and how much the

:49:26.:49:28.

prime minister can be trusted if he is willing to break a promise that

:49:29.:49:32.

was so still clear. It is a big deal for David Cameron. Harriet Baldwin,

:49:33.:49:40.

no ifs, no buts, no Heathrow expansion, said David Cameron. Can

:49:41.:49:48.

you rule it out after 2015? Well, obviously it has not happened yet.

:49:49.:49:55.

Then why have you not ruled it out after 2015? I am not writing the

:49:56.:50:00.

manifesto. I am a backbencher who will argue the case for being a West

:50:01.:50:05.

Midlands MP, the something West of London making more sense than

:50:06.:50:08.

something in the Thames estuary east of London, and also backing

:50:09.:50:13.

expansion or the Birmingham airport. It is down to each constituency's MP

:50:14.:50:19.

to represent our constituents. But will it be disastrous for David

:50:20.:50:24.

Cameron if he is seen to do an aerial U-turn on something he made

:50:25.:50:28.

clear would not happen if the Conservatives were in power? It is

:50:29.:50:32.

not happening in this Parliament, but he has set up this commission to

:50:33.:50:37.

look at the options. The terms of reference were not excluding

:50:38.:50:41.

Heathrow. So we will see what is in the report tomorrow. Then it will be

:50:42.:50:46.

for the prime minister to decide what goes into the Conservative

:50:47.:50:51.

manifesto. But as far as you can tell, Heathrow expansion is back on

:50:52.:50:55.

the table? You have heard that, I have not seen the report. For me, it

:50:56.:51:01.

is more to be welcomed than something east of London. Labour

:51:02.:51:05.

flip dropped on this as well. They said yes bring into 2010 and they

:51:06.:51:11.

said no after 2010, and now I am not sure what Labour are doing about a

:51:12.:51:18.

third runway at Heathrow. Well, occasionally, we realise that issues

:51:19.:51:21.

are more complex than they seem on television. Here, you have the need

:51:22.:51:26.

to balance concerns about climate change and the environment against

:51:27.:51:31.

the very real need to address capacity problems and the needs of

:51:32.:51:35.

business. There are arguments to be weighed up. That is why this report

:51:36.:51:40.

was commissioned in the first place. And although we have seen a lot of

:51:41.:51:44.

heat and argument in the papers, we don't know what it will see. So I

:51:45.:51:48.

would like to look at what it says first. The three options that have

:51:49.:51:54.

been touted all include expansion at Heathrow, either a third runway or a

:51:55.:51:59.

third and a fourth, or a third runway and another runway at

:52:00.:52:02.

Gatwick. Do we need expansion of our airport capacity in the south-east?

:52:03.:52:07.

It did not look just at Heathrow. The report considered 58 options,

:52:08.:52:12.

all of which have costs and benefits. The point of commissioning

:52:13.:52:16.

the report was to wire up the cost against the benefits. Harriet talked

:52:17.:52:22.

about being a constituency MP. There are real issues for people whose

:52:23.:52:25.

constituencies are affected around the country, as well as the climate

:52:26.:52:30.

issues and business issues. I know it is disappointing, but I really

:52:31.:52:33.

think we ought to read the report before making a decision. But should

:52:34.:52:38.

a decision be made before the next election? So many businesses say

:52:39.:52:44.

they are losing money. We understand the importance of what it means to

:52:45.:52:49.

business and industry. But quite frankly, for the Liberal Democrats,

:52:50.:53:04.

we are solid. So no expansion? Well, the interim report is tomorrow and

:53:05.:53:11.

then the final report in 2015. I am hoping that we have technological

:53:12.:53:15.

advances, because if there were bigger planes that made no noise and

:53:16.:53:19.

gave no pollution, it would be a different consideration. In the near

:53:20.:53:24.

term, we will look at the report and make a decision. But the Liberal

:53:25.:53:27.

Democrats are committed to no extra pollution and no more noise. Which

:53:28.:53:33.

sounds like no expansion, because however much technology comes along,

:53:34.:53:43.

it will not have fixed that by 2015. I think the report is coming out

:53:44.:53:49.

after the election, but I still think that in manifestoes, it will

:53:50.:53:54.

be difficult for parties not to set out their intentions for airport

:53:55.:53:58.

capacity. How clear would you like to see Ed Miliband on this, bearing

:53:59.:54:02.

in mind that he said no to it after the election because of concerns

:54:03.:54:07.

about the environment? We have to be clear with people about what we are

:54:08.:54:10.

planning. What would be really difficult would be if a decision was

:54:11.:54:14.

not made on this because of the political difficulties that the

:54:15.:54:17.

Conservatives in doing so, rather than looking at the needs of the

:54:18.:54:21.

country as a whole, taking into account the impact on the

:54:22.:54:24.

environment as well as the impact on as Miss capacity. -- is Miss

:54:25.:54:34.

capacity. The climate change commitment is very important. We all

:54:35.:54:38.

have to lay out our stalls before the election. To more important

:54:39.:54:41.

things now, like buying Christmas presents. Have you stopped the

:54:42.:54:45.

larder? As we hurtle towards Christmas, we are all looking

:54:46.:54:50.

forward to relaxing. Keith Simpson, the Parliamentary Private Secretary

:54:51.:54:53.

to Foreign Secretary William Hague, has published his famous Foreign

:54:54.:54:56.

Office reading list for the Christmas holidays. So what could we

:54:57.:55:02.

on the list? Is it 50 Shades, or child more's biography of Margaret

:55:03.:55:09.

Thatcher? -- child more's biography? Well, you don't have to wait any

:55:10.:55:12.

longer, because here he is with his trolley of books. Keith, I wonder if

:55:13.:55:17.

you are expecting everyone to read that huge number of books! I feel

:55:18.:55:26.

like someone from Downton Abbey! The idea of this book list came about

:55:27.:55:33.

slightly tongue in cheek. So many colleagues asked me before Christmas

:55:34.:55:36.

if I would please produce it, because they wanted to find books

:55:37.:55:39.

for their father, mother, uncle, brother, husband. What a service you

:55:40.:55:48.

are performing. What was at the top? The top one is Charles more's

:55:49.:55:53.

biography of Margaret Thatcher, because as a biography, it is

:55:54.:56:01.

outstandingly good. A lot of ardent Thatcherites among my colleagues

:56:02.:56:04.

gulped when they read it. So there is new stuff to be known? There are

:56:05.:56:11.

150 letters that she wrote to her sister, which are incredibly

:56:12.:56:16.

revealing about her as a woman. Lisa, you are making faces. Would

:56:17.:56:22.

that not be top of your list? I was trying to picture Christmas in

:56:23.:56:27.

Keith's house, because mine would not look like anything of those

:56:28.:56:32.

books. I prefer things a bit lighter than that. I don't want to hear

:56:33.:56:41.

that! My sister is having a rage about the number of books I have

:56:42.:56:45.

got. How many of those have you read? Nearly all of them. Do you

:56:46.:56:55.

speed read them? I can't stand that. No, I am a fast reader. Lynne

:56:56.:57:01.

Featherstone, any of those take your fancy? The list came to me

:57:02.:57:06.

yesterday, and I chose Lawrence of Arabia. But I did not know Peter

:57:07.:57:10.

O'Toole was sadly going to pass away. So now might be quite timely.

:57:11.:57:17.

Indeed, and in terms of why the Middle East is so intractable, I

:57:18.:57:22.

thought it might have some clues. Lawrence in Arabia, not Lawrence of

:57:23.:57:31.

Arabia. The serious point is to have a lot of history to understand to

:57:32.:57:35.

understand what is going on in Syria and the Ukraine at present. And of

:57:36.:57:41.

course, William Hague and his opposite number Douglas Alexander,

:57:42.:57:44.

read a lot of history and they think it is relevant. I noticed that on

:57:45.:57:52.

the list, only five out of 37 whereby women. Well, I did not go

:57:53.:58:02.

out of my way to do that. But the women produced of the quality. Well

:58:03.:58:07.

done, Keith! You are bit surrounded. I understood that I was

:58:08.:58:20.

to sit between you ladies. Harriet, what takes your fancy? Keith does

:58:21.:58:27.

intimidate all of us with the depth of his erudition, but there was a

:58:28.:58:32.

book about travelling in the footsteps of Genghis Khan and I

:58:33.:58:35.

thought it would be a good piece of escapism of the Christmas recess.

:58:36.:58:43.

What should he read? I have got 50 Shades Of Grey. Mrs Simpson has now

:58:44.:58:50.

read all three volumes of that. Except the third one, which she left

:58:51.:58:55.

on a tray. Everyone say goodbye!

:58:56.:59:02.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, with political strategist John McTernan and a look at plans to tackle slavery.


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