09/01/2014 Daily Politics


09/01/2014

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by former Canon Chancellor of St Paul's Cathedral Giles Fraser. Plus Minister for the Cabinet Office Francis Maude on digital strategy.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 09/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Police and

:00:35.:00:39.

politicians try to calm an East London community after yesterday's

:00:40.:00:42.

verdict of unlawful killing over the death of Mark Duggan. -- lawful

:00:43.:00:49.

killing. We will bring you the latest.

:00:50.:00:51.

The government says it can save ?500 million putting government services

:00:52.:00:54.

online, but admits that ?40 million has already been wasted on the IT

:00:55.:00:58.

for welfare reform. Love is in the air. What has brought

:00:59.:01:01.

on an unexpected rapprochement between the Deputy Prime Minister

:01:02.:01:06.

and shadow chancellor? And this man has got a bit of spare

:01:07.:01:13.

time on his hands. Could Alex Ferguson do for the Labour Party

:01:14.:01:17.

what he did for Manchester United? All that in the next hour. And with

:01:18.:01:21.

us for the duration, our very own guru, a former canon chancellor of

:01:22.:01:25.

St Paul's Cathedral. He is now a parish priest in south London. Giles

:01:26.:01:29.

Fraser, welcome to the programme. Let's start with the Mark Duggan

:01:30.:01:33.

inquest. Yesterday, a jury concluded that Mr Duggan was lawfully killed

:01:34.:01:37.

when he was shot dead by police in August 2011. His death led to days

:01:38.:01:44.

of rioting across the UK. His aunt, Carol, gave this defiant message

:01:45.:01:47.

from outside the court. These pictures contain flash photography.

:01:48.:02:01.

For as long as it takes, God give my family strength. Not only the

:02:02.:02:04.

family, the whole of our legal team, the whole of our friends, the whole

:02:05.:02:10.

of the who have supported us. The majority of people in this country

:02:11.:02:14.

know that Mark was executed, and we still believe that. We are going to

:02:15.:02:18.

fight until we have no breath in our body for justice for Mark, for his

:02:19.:02:24.

children and all of those deaths in custody that they have had nothing

:02:25.:02:34.

for. No justice, no peace! Well, this morning Carole Duggan

:02:35.:02:37.

said although the "struggle" will go on, she's called for "no more

:02:38.:02:40.

demonstrations, no more violence". She added that the family would be

:02:41.:02:43.

pursuing their case through peaceful channels.

:02:44.:02:46.

In a moment, we hope to be joined by the MP for the area, David Lammy. He

:02:47.:02:50.

is coming from a meeting with the Met Police. Giles, what is your

:02:51.:02:57.

overall impression of what has happened here? Just looking at the

:02:58.:03:04.

footage of Mark Duggan's aren't, there was something slightly

:03:05.:03:08.

intimidating about that" no justice, no peace". That felt to me at the

:03:09.:03:14.

time as if it was a call for some sort of violence. I am very glad to

:03:15.:03:18.

hear that they have pulled back on that a bit. But I thought the

:03:19.:03:22.

atmosphere outside was really intimidating. Jores Okore be at and

:03:23.:03:27.

that sort of thing. This is unacceptable -- jaw is worth being

:03:28.:03:33.

lunged at. At that has to reflect the feelings of the community, the

:03:34.:03:37.

fact that the police have had a pretty bad track record of late,

:03:38.:03:44.

from Jean Charles de Menezes and even Andrew Mitchell recently. A

:03:45.:03:51.

jury came to this verdict and that is the way our legal system works,

:03:52.:03:58.

and we have to accept that. The media talk about the concerns of the

:03:59.:04:02.

community, but the evidence of what the community really thinks is quite

:04:03.:04:06.

thin. There were a number of people outside the Tottenham police station

:04:07.:04:09.

last night for the demonstration, but there was little evidence that

:04:10.:04:14.

other people then joined in. It was worried much the people who had been

:04:15.:04:18.

outside the court. There is a lot of evidence that this man terrorised

:04:19.:04:21.

his community and that people were frightened of him. There is indeed,

:04:22.:04:25.

and I am always be specious about people commenting about immunity

:04:26.:04:32.

leaders, these self-proclaimed people. -- community leaders. Mark

:04:33.:04:38.

Duggan was not on trial here. But their sins to be a lot of evidence

:04:39.:04:43.

that this was a gang member who did terrorised the local community. None

:04:44.:04:52.

of that justifies him being shot. Policing these areas, with dangerous

:04:53.:04:57.

criminal gangs, is a difficult job for the police to do. The police

:04:58.:05:04.

look to be on shaky ground over some questions, particularly the gun. We

:05:05.:05:12.

have no witnesses saying they saw the gun being thrown away. The gun

:05:13.:05:20.

was 20 feet away from the police. On the other hand, I would suggest that

:05:21.:05:28.

there is a great danger, if our mythical community leaders and other

:05:29.:05:33.

activists try to turn this man into another Stephen Lawrence, it is

:05:34.:05:38.

clear that he was not a Stephen Lawrence. He was not any sort of

:05:39.:05:43.

hero in this community. It is interesting about the nature of

:05:44.:05:46.

evidence in these complicated crime scenes. That is why there is this

:05:47.:05:50.

idea that has come up about the police having cameras on their

:05:51.:05:54.

hats, which I guess sounds like a good idea. It is interesting that

:05:55.:06:01.

the police, in difficult situations, have to make split-second decisions

:06:02.:06:06.

about whether to shoot. We saw that in the case of the murder of Lee

:06:07.:06:13.

Rigby and what happened after that, with people rushing at the police

:06:14.:06:17.

and having to make a split-second decision. And how you make those

:06:18.:06:24.

decisions is a really interesting thing. You can't looked up in a book

:06:25.:06:27.

and see all the. You don't get a chance to do it again. These are

:06:28.:06:32.

very difficult things. I have done quite a bit of work with the Army

:06:33.:06:36.

over the last few years about how you make instant moral decisions. It

:06:37.:06:40.

is nothing that comes out of a rule book, it comes out of your character

:06:41.:06:44.

and your instinct. Let's go to David Lammy now. You were at a meeting

:06:45.:06:51.

with the police this morning. What did you learn? Well, the meeting was

:06:52.:06:59.

really a series of community meetings with local council and

:07:00.:07:06.

members of the community, reflecting on the verdict. As you will have

:07:07.:07:13.

seen and heard yesterday, many close to the family were communicating in

:07:14.:07:18.

a powerful way, but also looking forward to hopefully a peaceful

:07:19.:07:26.

vigil at the weekend, but also to broader police relations in the

:07:27.:07:30.

constituency and beyond. Where will the vigil be, and who will be part

:07:31.:07:34.

of it? That is still being determined. It is the intention of

:07:35.:07:40.

the Duggan family to have a peaceful vigil. That will take place this

:07:41.:07:49.

weekend. I suspect it will be, in the normal way in my constituency,

:07:50.:07:56.

outside the police station. It is a moment in which members of the

:07:57.:08:00.

community are able to reflect on the loss of life of Mark Duggan. But the

:08:01.:08:05.

family will also be able to convey their feelings about where they find

:08:06.:08:09.

themselves at this moment. For them, this is not the end of the

:08:10.:08:14.

process. There is an Independent Police Complaints Commission enquiry

:08:15.:08:20.

that has yet to report, so this story continues for them. But you

:08:21.:08:24.

seem to have some doubts about the ability of the IPCC to get to the

:08:25.:08:28.

bottom of this? It is not just me that has doubts. The Home Secretary

:08:29.:08:36.

has doubts about that a black body. The Independent Police Complaints

:08:37.:08:43.

Commission is a body that, across the political spectrum, there is

:08:44.:08:47.

concern about its strength, its resources, its ability to command

:08:48.:08:51.

the respect of officers and actually to be able to interview officers. In

:08:52.:08:56.

this case, the officers did not give interviews. This investigation has

:08:57.:09:00.

been going on for two and a half years. And with reason is not

:09:01.:09:09.

attached to the Mark Duggan case, Andrew Mitchell, a former Cabinet

:09:10.:09:13.

office the list, has expressed concerns. It full is the -- it falls

:09:14.:09:18.

to the to look at questions the jury raised, and also questions that came

:09:19.:09:24.

out of the inquest itself, and to come back to the public in the

:09:25.:09:27.

coming weeks. In many people's mines, the police still have

:09:28.:09:32.

questions to answer. It looks as if there are some contradictions in

:09:33.:09:38.

what they have been saying. Are you not in danger of making a hero or a

:09:39.:09:45.

national figure out of someone who was clearly a pretty nasty

:09:46.:09:53.

gangster? Look, it is not for me, as an elected official, to determine

:09:54.:09:58.

the rights or wrong is of a particular individual. That is for a

:09:59.:10:05.

jury and our prosecution services. But are you in any doubt that he was

:10:06.:10:12.

a gangster? I know what the jury said. It is your constituency and

:10:13.:10:16.

you say you are close to the family. Are you in any doubt that he

:10:17.:10:20.

was a gangster of whom people were terrified? Andrew, I have not come

:10:21.:10:28.

on this show to start calling people gangsters, particularly when they

:10:29.:10:32.

don't have significant criminal records. Mark Duggan had a small

:10:33.:10:38.

criminal record for possession of marijuana, and that was it. So I

:10:39.:10:44.

recognise that others have portrayed him as such. His family said he was

:10:45.:10:50.

not an angel. But the truth is that there are many young men in

:10:51.:10:55.

inner-city areas that reach the age of 29, have small criminal records,

:10:56.:11:00.

but he had no record for violence, gun possession and other things. But

:11:01.:11:05.

yes, operation Trident have said he was absolutely on their list. They

:11:06.:11:09.

were watching him, and certain things came out of the inquest.

:11:10.:11:16.

You were bursting to get in with something. I wanted to ask David

:11:17.:11:24.

Lammy something. David, why is it that the natural place for a

:11:25.:11:27.

peaceful vigil is outside a police station? That seems to be the

:11:28.:11:30.

natural place for a demonstration. At a vigil may be churches and so

:11:31.:11:36.

forth. That does not seem to be the natural place for a vigil. That is a

:11:37.:11:43.

good point. It is a matter for discussion over the next 24-hour. --

:11:44.:11:53.

24 hours. What has happened in Tottenham is that there have been

:11:54.:11:56.

four deaths at the hands of the police in as many decades, each

:11:57.:12:02.

decade of my life. This goes back to just before the Broadwater farm

:12:03.:12:11.

riots. Roger Sylvester in the late 90s and now Mark Duggan. For those

:12:12.:12:16.

reasons, protest outside the police station is something that has been

:12:17.:12:19.

an established norm. Of course, in many respects, there are broader

:12:20.:12:24.

issues here in terms of police relations, and if that protest is to

:12:25.:12:30.

happen, I would like some of it to be in central London outside

:12:31.:12:33.

Scotland Yard and not entirely directed at my constituency. The

:12:34.:12:37.

vast number of people in Tottenham want to support this family. They

:12:38.:12:41.

certainly don't want to see violence, and the family have

:12:42.:12:44.

reiterated that there can be no violence at attached to the name of

:12:45.:12:47.

Mark Duggan. Now to something different, our

:12:48.:12:52.

daily quiz. The question for today is what new TV programme has been a

:12:53.:12:57.

leader Nick Griffin launched on his party's website? Is it his own

:12:58.:13:05.

fitness and work-out DVD? A cookery programme? And interior design show

:13:06.:13:10.

or a money advice service? At the end of the show, Giles has the

:13:11.:13:14.

privilege of giving us the correct and soft. -- the correct answer.

:13:15.:13:26.

Hasn't he just gone bankrupt? So a money advice service? I am just

:13:27.:13:30.

guessing. Apparently, you don't need to step

:13:31.:13:33.

down from the European Parliament if you are bankrupt, whereas you do

:13:34.:13:39.

across the road. Now, at this stage, I should have a bit of paper in my

:13:40.:13:42.

hand, but I left it in the newsroom. Anyway, you know that in addition to

:13:43.:13:46.

the plastic licences we get for driving, you still have to have some

:13:47.:13:52.

back-up paper, even though we now have photographic licences. If you

:13:53.:13:56.

want to rent a car when you go abroad, you need one. As soon, the

:13:57.:13:59.

paper part of the driving licence will not be needed. They are going

:14:00.:14:04.

to go away. It is part of the government drive to put more stuff

:14:05.:14:09.

online. They say it will save money. Yes, the government is committed to

:14:10.:14:14.

making the UK the most digital government in the G8 by 2015. Today

:14:15.:14:17.

Cabinet office minister Francis Maude is unveiling lands to make

:14:18.:14:23.

that a reality. Today's announcement is over the abolition of paper

:14:24.:14:28.

driver licenses. But by 2015, the new system will be supporting

:14:29.:14:32.

student loan applications, people registering to vote and tax

:14:33.:14:35.

self-assessment is. The government says that on average, an online

:14:36.:14:40.

service is 50 times cheaper than face-to-face transactions. According

:14:41.:14:43.

to Francis Maude, tackling the waste in IT spending will save at least

:14:44.:14:48.

?500 million this year. But of course, it is not all plain sailing.

:14:49.:14:52.

The government's universal credit project, which is meant to

:14:53.:14:57.

consolidate all working age benefits into one payment, has been troubled

:14:58.:15:01.

by serious IT problems. This has led to the write-off of ?40 million and

:15:02.:15:05.

led to the Cabinet office minister Francis Maude sending in

:15:06.:15:09.

troubleshooters to get the project back on track. And there have been

:15:10.:15:15.

leaked reports that there have been disagreements between the work on

:15:16.:15:18.

pension secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Francis Maude over the way the

:15:19.:15:22.

project is managed. I am joined now by Bryan Glick, editor in chief of

:15:23.:15:31.

Computer Weekly. Government IT has been seen as a disaster. Why is

:15:32.:15:37.

that? It comes down to the fact that the disasters we hear about are very

:15:38.:15:41.

big projects and they are large politically driven initiatives and

:15:42.:15:47.

because they try to deliver a promise of a politician, it is not

:15:48.:15:52.

like a business with the Chief Executive says, let us slip that for

:15:53.:15:57.

six months, but in politics you get attacked for that. It is that

:15:58.:16:01.

physical pressure along with the sheer scale of what they try to

:16:02.:16:06.

achieve. Universal Credit, was not to be? And the timescale to short?

:16:07.:16:19.

-- too short? It certainly seems that has come back to bite them in a

:16:20.:16:25.

rather nasty way since. The sad thing about Universal Credit is that

:16:26.:16:31.

they chose to pursue initially some of the older ways of doing things

:16:32.:16:35.

that had previously been criticised and they have not learned lessons

:16:36.:16:41.

from past mistakes. There is a new breed of people within government,

:16:42.:16:46.

led by Francis Maude, who believe it is better to do things differently.

:16:47.:16:53.

Is this achievable? This project? It is certainly achievable at some

:16:54.:16:57.

point and they shall be able to deliver that. Deliver software that

:16:58.:17:04.

does what it is wanted to do. But not in the timescales overpromised

:17:05.:17:07.

and to the budget they have committed to. Once this mod is

:17:08.:17:12.

committed to making the UK the best in the G8. How good are we? Looking

:17:13.:17:18.

across the G8, he would not about anyone to say, they are particularly

:17:19.:17:23.

good. If you want to be the best, it is not a project really difficult

:17:24.:17:29.

race to win! But over the last couple of years, this new digital

:17:30.:17:35.

service that Francis Maude is responsible for has made some

:17:36.:17:37.

significant progress and has done good work. Can they say the money

:17:38.:17:43.

that Francis Maude is talking about? ?500 million every year? It costs a

:17:44.:17:48.

lot of money to do a face-to-face transaction in public service and it

:17:49.:17:52.

costs less to do that by telephone and a lot less online. If you can

:17:53.:17:58.

take services that are done predominantly face-to-face or on

:17:59.:18:02.

telephone and get them done over the internet, it will cost less money.

:18:03.:18:07.

Thank you. Andrew? With us now is the man in charge - Francis Maude,

:18:08.:18:12.

the Cabinet Office Minister. The Bill Gates of the Coalition

:18:13.:18:20.

Government! How will look -- will be measure success in becoming the most

:18:21.:18:27.

digital government by next year? There are independent rankings done

:18:28.:18:30.

by outside bodies and we did not rank particularly high on that.

:18:31.:18:36.

Estonia, remarkably, always comes up at the top. They are not in the G8

:18:37.:18:43.

and that is a fair point. But the competition is not fierce. But that

:18:44.:18:53.

word, by word for disaster, and repetition is shockingly bad and we

:18:54.:18:58.

spend more per capita on IT in any other country with the exception of

:18:59.:19:03.

Sweden and Switzerland. And you must include the cost of a certain

:19:04.:19:10.

laboratory. That is a rather unusual piece of equipment. We were spending

:19:11.:19:15.

a lot and were ranked fairly low. Now, we are rising but there have

:19:16.:19:23.

not been recent rankings. But this is about how many transition --

:19:24.:19:28.

transactions get done. We have good applications but they are not well

:19:29.:19:31.

used. If you can get 20 percentage people to use an application, you

:19:32.:19:37.

should be able to get up to 80% quickly and government applications

:19:38.:19:40.

get stuck at 50% and a lot of that is the transaction failing so you

:19:41.:19:45.

get huge numbers of enquiries by phone and people having to do things

:19:46.:19:49.

face-to-face or by post, which is not the way most people want to do

:19:50.:19:53.

this. Some people do but you want the individual attention to be

:19:54.:19:58.

focused on the people who cannot operate online rather than on the

:19:59.:20:02.

majority of people who want to do things quickly and conveniently at a

:20:03.:20:08.

time of their own choosing. I have my prop! There are a lot of

:20:09.:20:17.

endorsements on this! Is that yours? ! Quite clean! You must get rid of

:20:18.:20:28.

this? That is a consequence. We will not need tax discs in the future

:20:29.:20:33.

because that is a relic of the past. The police can now pick you up

:20:34.:20:39.

on number recognition? And with the paper counterpart, you don't need to

:20:40.:20:43.

have that any more because everyone has... And insurance companies and

:20:44.:20:49.

companies for car hire have access to that online and one consequence

:20:50.:20:53.

will be that insurance premiums should come down for honest drivers,

:20:54.:21:01.

which is the majority, and it is reckoned that remains will drop by

:21:02.:21:07.

?15 every year. Not huge but a little bit. Better than nothing.

:21:08.:21:14.

When we think of government and digital, we think of the Williams

:21:15.:21:24.

spent on the NHS patient records. And electronic borders. And we have

:21:25.:21:29.

seen you willing your chaps out of the project to deliver Universal

:21:30.:21:36.

Credit? There are only a dozen of our people on that. And the

:21:37.:21:45.

intention of these projects always is that we do not expect central

:21:46.:21:50.

government to be there forever, we are there to give support and build

:21:51.:21:59.

the team. MoJ, for example, that team is 65. We help them recruit and

:22:00.:22:07.

all of that. But the programme of building the digital online

:22:08.:22:11.

applications has to be done within the Department. Is your team saying

:22:12.:22:16.

everything is OK at the Department for Work and Pensions? There are two

:22:17.:22:22.

projects over their because there was the original Pathfinder which

:22:23.:22:27.

has run into big problems. Iain Duncan Smith spotted the problems

:22:28.:22:32.

earlier on and commissioned a review more than two years ago, and that

:22:33.:22:37.

highlighted to the officials in the Department... What are your people

:22:38.:22:46.

saying I? They have come out. Or they saying, it is fine? It has been

:22:47.:22:53.

done in a way that is agreed with the digital leader in the

:22:54.:22:55.

Department, who is strongly supported by our digital

:22:56.:23:00.

infrastructure. Relations are very good. I am a strong supporter of

:23:01.:23:05.

what Iain Duncan Smith is doing and Universal Credit is an exceptionally

:23:06.:23:10.

powerful visionary policy and I am confident it is capable of being

:23:11.:23:15.

implement it. The Guardian said that Mr Maude and his team fell out with

:23:16.:23:19.

Mr Duncan Smith's that is simply incorrect. The Guardian got it

:23:20.:23:26.

wrong? It is impossible to conceive such a thing! But we have worked

:23:27.:23:32.

very closely together. We got involved with this project less than

:23:33.:23:39.

one year ago at Ian's request because there was a real problem

:23:40.:23:43.

going wrong and could we help? We put people in but it was always on

:23:44.:23:48.

an interim basis, we had our most experienced project manager in

:23:49.:23:55.

government on a temporary basis and he gripped that and reset everything

:23:56.:23:58.

and we have been given commercial support because of problems in the

:23:59.:24:02.

relationships with suppliers and be put in a digital team, so it was

:24:03.:24:08.

always meant... We hope it shall work out well. There are two

:24:09.:24:14.

projects. You would not hope it works out badly! Nobody has any

:24:15.:24:19.

doubt that the digital solution that the team in Victoria Street, which

:24:20.:24:23.

is predominantly Work and Pensions, are working on a prototype in three

:24:24.:24:28.

months at a cost of just over ?1 million. Will it be all right? We

:24:29.:24:35.

hope so. There is no certainty in these things. I think the gentleman

:24:36.:24:42.

from Computer Weekly was right. One of the problems is we have set

:24:43.:24:47.

deadlines and we feel locked into those and other organisations, you

:24:48.:24:52.

would give yourself more fixable itty and everything we do in

:24:53.:24:56.

government is incredibly public and one of the problems with the Oldroyd

:24:57.:24:59.

of doing things, which are referred to, is that politicians and advisers

:25:00.:25:08.

and officials produce a policy and gets handed off to someone to

:25:09.:25:11.

implement and what has happened in the past easy draw up a huge amount

:25:12.:25:16.

of money and specifications, going through lengthy procurement and give

:25:17.:25:22.

that to a big firm to develop and two years later it comes back and

:25:23.:25:27.

does not work. That is wrong, the way we do things now is very much

:25:28.:25:32.

more interactive and you develop and test it all the time with users, it

:25:33.:25:37.

has to be driven by user needs and it is a completely different

:25:38.:25:42.

approach. We shall see. What is your take? I am quite grumpy about this.

:25:43.:25:49.

But about the money that is wasted but about moving away from

:25:50.:25:52.

face-to-face. I quite like the fact that so many of these things are

:25:53.:25:57.

done face-to-face and so many interactions have become

:25:58.:26:03.

depersonalised and it was rotating phrase is unexpected item in bagging

:26:04.:26:10.

area. -- the most irritating. You get terribly frustrated. The idea

:26:11.:26:15.

that we are moving online, with nobody to shout out! And for the

:26:16.:26:23.

elderly, people without computers have to go to libraries, if there is

:26:24.:26:27.

a library that has not been shot down near you. I can sense you

:26:28.:26:37.

getting angry. But the point is at the moment have enormous numbers of

:26:38.:26:42.

telephone calls and only driver licenses, there are 1 million

:26:43.:26:47.

enquiries every year, most by phone, and most are quite unnecessary and

:26:48.:26:50.

people don't want to do that. For most people, they want to do this

:26:51.:26:56.

quickly and conveniently and it is a chore that has to be done. What you

:26:57.:27:00.

need is the focus of the face-to-face contact centres

:27:01.:27:04.

available for those who need it but not actually spread... People who

:27:05.:27:11.

really need that RNA queue of people who do not. -- who need that are in

:27:12.:27:24.

a queue. Thank you both. When the Occupy movement set up camp outside

:27:25.:27:27.

St Paul's Cathedral towards the end of 2011, it did more than mount a

:27:28.:27:30.

four-month protest against global capitalism, it provoked a series of

:27:31.:27:34.

rows and resignations not least that of our guest of the day who was

:27:35.:27:37.

senior member of the cathedral's clergy. But for all the turmoil,

:27:38.:27:43.

some argue the episode actually did the Church of England some good and

:27:44.:27:46.

provoked a passionate, if sometimes painful, debate about its role and

:27:47.:27:50.

ability to speak on social, moral and financial issues. David Thompson

:27:51.:28:04.

reports. St Paul's Cathedral. For some, the interface between God and

:28:05.:28:09.

man. Two years ago, conflict came to its front door. They Occupy movement

:28:10.:28:15.

was meant to bring a campaign against greed and inequality

:28:16.:28:19.

straight to the spiritual heart of London. It's true the world 's media

:28:20.:28:26.

to the steps and led to high-profile resignations at the church. The

:28:27.:28:31.

protest began on October the 15th 2011. Around 3000 people gathered

:28:32.:28:35.

outside the London Stock Exchange with a view to occupying it. And it

:28:36.:28:40.

failed they moved to Saint Pauls. Within days, with an 100 tents were

:28:41.:28:45.

set up and the cathedral had a crisis. It was visibly shocked when

:28:46.:28:51.

Ocuupy turned up. You could see that on the face of the bishop and the

:28:52.:28:56.

clergy. They did not know how to respond to this. Those built of

:28:57.:29:01.

human flesh to back at first it remained open but citing health and

:29:02.:29:05.

safety, it closed one week later and 13 days after the protest began the

:29:06.:29:10.

cathedral took legal action to give it the protesters. But that came at

:29:11.:29:16.

a price. The decision to evict the protesters had the backing of the

:29:17.:29:22.

city. But the consequences were not good for Saint Pauls in the

:29:23.:29:25.

short-term. The cause of the number of resignations. Giles Fraser, the

:29:26.:29:32.

Dean and others. The protest came to an end on February 20, 2012, when

:29:33.:29:38.

police moved tents and activists. It had lasted more than four months.

:29:39.:29:43.

But what long-term impact did it have on the wider church? The

:29:44.:29:46.

protest might even have influenced the decision for Justin Welby to be

:29:47.:29:55.

Archbishop. He came from the world of the city, he had massive

:29:56.:29:59.

experience in finance and through the oil industry. But he also has

:30:00.:30:03.

this very strong ability to speak on issues of poverty, so he is a man

:30:04.:30:09.

who can bridge those worlds. The protest was worthwhile and we still

:30:10.:30:14.

can seek repercussions are broad and here and we have seen long-term

:30:15.:30:17.

change in the church in the church and the right action. And the people

:30:18.:30:21.

did that I'd have free will, they wanted to. They thought it was

:30:22.:30:24.

worthwhile. Shaking up a church every now and again is no bad

:30:25.:30:30.

thing. Very few months, it was the centre of a noisy and sometimes

:30:31.:30:33.

painful debate about the role of the church in a capitalist society. Two

:30:34.:30:37.

years later, its effects are still being felt. So what should be the

:30:38.:30:46.

real role of the church in the social and political life of the

:30:47.:30:48.

country? Joining Giles Fraser to discuss that

:30:49.:30:52.

is the Conservative MP and committed Christian, Steve Baker. Giles

:30:53.:30:57.

Fraser, since the Occupy protests, you have been a critic of the

:30:58.:31:01.

government. Is that the right thing for Anglican cleric to be doing? It

:31:02.:31:07.

is not the government, per se. As a Christian clergyman, I feel that the

:31:08.:31:18.

gospel calls us to preach in a way that is particularly good news to

:31:19.:31:21.

the poor. This government has not necessarily been good news to the

:31:22.:31:25.

poor, and that is something we can debate, but it is not a party

:31:26.:31:29.

political issue. I am happy to criticise any government that is not

:31:30.:31:33.

good news to the poor. It is not a party political thing. The idea that

:31:34.:31:37.

the Church should stay out of politics is one of those cliches.

:31:38.:31:41.

Tell that to Desmond Tutu. It is absurd. It is a diminished sense of

:31:42.:31:47.

what constitutes politics if you think that. Let me welcome our

:31:48.:31:52.

viewers in Scotland who have watching First Minister's Questions.

:31:53.:31:57.

We are talking about the role of the Church and St Paul's cathedral since

:31:58.:32:00.

the protests a few years ago. Why shouldn't the church criticise

:32:01.:32:04.

something that they feel affects their constituents? The church

:32:05.:32:10.

should do what Jesus did. Jesus was born King of the Jews and died King

:32:11.:32:14.

of the Jews. He was a born politician. He said a lot of things

:32:15.:32:18.

which disrupted society. But what is surprising about Jesus is that he

:32:19.:32:22.

rejected the use of practical politics to force things. So the

:32:23.:32:26.

question for the church is, what kind of politics do you want to make

:32:27.:32:30.

relevant? What frustrates me is that there we are, a church which follows

:32:31.:32:35.

Jesus, the servant King, and he avoided the use of political power,

:32:36.:32:38.

against all expectations. So I think the church should be preaching

:32:39.:32:44.

freedom and virtue and love for your neighbour, but not Kenzie and

:32:45.:32:46.

economics and an extension of political power. Giles was talking

:32:47.:32:51.

about championing the rights of the poor. He feels that some government

:32:52.:32:54.

policies have not helped the poor. Steve, you you are a member of the

:32:55.:33:00.

Christian conservative fellowship. You see the church should stay out

:33:01.:33:05.

of politics. Here is the mission -2 bad prayer is the foundation of all

:33:06.:33:10.

our activity, to seek Kristian to support the Conservatives. You are

:33:11.:33:12.

politicising religion heavily, so don't put that on me. I did not see

:33:13.:33:16.

the church should stay out of politics, I said the church thing

:33:17.:33:21.

about what Jesus did in politics. You should be speaking for society

:33:22.:33:28.

in the way Jesus did, which was to witness personal service and love,

:33:29.:33:31.

not to reach for political power and coerce people. Are you saying that

:33:32.:33:37.

because it is the politics you don't agree with? If Giles was supporting

:33:38.:33:40.

conservative policy, you would not be criticising him. What I am

:33:41.:33:48.

critical of is the wrong kinds of all attacks to serve the poor.

:33:49.:33:52.

Wallace six you don't agree with! This is one of the unfortunate thing

:33:53.:33:57.

is about the Bible and why the law should never be justified on the

:33:58.:34:00.

grounds of faith. You have to keep faith out of legislation. The Bible

:34:01.:34:04.

can be used to justify more or less anything, from anarchic hominis on

:34:05.:34:09.

the one hand to a profound conservative on the other. I am an

:34:10.:34:13.

old-fashioned liberal, so when I look at Galatians, the law is a

:34:14.:34:19.

schoolmaster. I think the church should be preaching what Jesus said,

:34:20.:34:25.

which is liberty and virtue and love for our neighbour. I am glad you

:34:26.:34:30.

think that in one sense, you should separate the church from politics.

:34:31.:34:33.

Presumably you are in favour of the disestablishment of the Church of

:34:34.:34:41.

England. I am. I was baptised into the Church of England, but I am now

:34:42.:34:45.

a Baptist, so I am happy to leave those issues to the Church of

:34:46.:34:49.

England. I would be very happy to see the Church of England

:34:50.:34:52.

disestablished, but I'm not about to start campaigning for it. We have

:34:53.:34:56.

had enough nonsense about the House of Lords. You can see the

:34:57.:34:59.

difficulties it creates for the Church of England over, for example,

:35:00.:35:04.

women bishops. They have to play out that drama in public when actually,

:35:05.:35:08.

it is a faith matter. You are presiding over a divided community.

:35:09.:35:17.

The in your former role, you are presiding over a divided community

:35:18.:35:20.

on those issues. The Church of England was invented as a board

:35:21.:35:26.

church. We invented the big tent, Tony Blair didn't. We have all sorts

:35:27.:35:31.

of people. That is what we want. There are not many people in the

:35:32.:35:37.

10th these days. I don't know what tent you go to, but come to see me

:35:38.:35:40.

sometime! Let's go back to the protests. With hindsight, do you

:35:41.:35:45.

think the church got itself into a mess over it? Yes. I think the

:35:46.:35:52.

church had ignored the idea of social and economic justice.

:35:53.:35:57.

Economic justice is the number-1 moral issue in the Bible. I think

:35:58.:36:05.

there was not enough talk about money and the morality of finance

:36:06.:36:09.

and so forth. I think the church was fingers and thumbs when the

:36:10.:36:15.

financial crisis hit. Part of what happened at St Paul's Cathedral was

:36:16.:36:20.

what led us to having Justin Welby as Archbishop of Canterbury. And is

:36:21.:36:23.

he getting the politics right as well as the faith? He is doing a

:36:24.:36:28.

good job, yes. Does he bridged the two worlds? It is not about reaching

:36:29.:36:35.

the two worlds -- bridging them . It is Christianity trying to speak out

:36:36.:36:40.

of its own truth. And would you like people like Giles to not say a word?

:36:41.:36:43.

No, it is important that Giles is part of a spectrum of debate. But

:36:44.:36:48.

for me, and understanding of the Bible justifies an old-fashioned

:36:49.:36:51.

liberalism which is about freedom and institutions and eliminating the

:36:52.:36:56.

moral hands at from the banking system which the state put there. We

:36:57.:36:59.

should have a free society where people have responsibility for the

:37:00.:37:04.

consequences of their actions. I don't remember anything about the

:37:05.:37:10.

banking system in Bible classes. Or whether they had a view on

:37:11.:37:13.

quantitative easing or not. Anyway, in the past, the shadow chancellor,

:37:14.:37:20.

Ed Balls, has not been a fan of Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg. This was what

:37:21.:37:23.

he said about him in September 2012.

:37:24.:37:35.

I am not thinking to myself, I want a coalition for the future. I want a

:37:36.:37:40.

Labour majority government in 2015. But right now, I want this and

:37:41.:37:43.

people who put the country first and are sensible. Yesterday in an

:37:44.:37:48.

interview with the new statesman, Ed Balls changed his tune, suggesting

:37:49.:37:52.

that the Deputy Prime Minister was a man he could work with, saying" I

:37:53.:37:56.

can disagree with Nick Clegg on some of the things he did, but I have no

:37:57.:38:02.

reason to doubt his integrity". No lag responded on Twitter simply with

:38:03.:38:06.

the words "Ed Balls". Ed Balls responded" I agree with Nick" .

:38:07.:38:14.

Isn't that nice? We are joined now by the political editor of the New

:38:15.:38:18.

Statesman, Rafael Behr. What is Mr Balls up to? It is a good question.

:38:19.:38:24.

The interpretation from the Liberal Democrat side is that Ed Balls has

:38:25.:38:30.

understood that it is still difficult for Labour to win a

:38:31.:38:33.

majority at the next election. Labour have underestimated Nick

:38:34.:38:36.

Clegg. They thought he would be toast by now. He is still there. He

:38:37.:38:41.

might hold the balance of power in a hung Parliament, and there will be

:38:42.:38:48.

coalition negotiations. Ed Balls has to demonstrate that he is capable of

:38:49.:38:50.

doing business with everyone. This was an act of Rand decontamination

:38:51.:38:56.

on his part, saying, I am not the angry trouble person you thought I

:38:57.:39:02.

was. We might be able to get along. Was he speaking to the New Statesman

:39:03.:39:08.

as an individual on this, or was there a decision in the Miliband

:39:09.:39:16.

office? The relationship between the Miliband office and the Ed Balls

:39:17.:39:19.

office is always complex. They communicate, but I don't think it

:39:20.:39:22.

would be fair to say they always speak as one. There has been a broad

:39:23.:39:27.

change in that own the Labour Party has adopted would the Lib Dems, as

:39:28.:39:30.

they have realised that Nick Clegg is not the sort of zombie that they

:39:31.:39:34.

can be had with one that of their wrist as the next election

:39:35.:39:38.

approaches. He will be there, and he might want to be Deputy Prime

:39:39.:39:44.

Minister under a Labour government. Ed Balls in particular has been

:39:45.:39:48.

feeling isolated recently. He did not have a great end of the year.

:39:49.:39:55.

People feel he has not been popular. He needs to show he is a figure that

:39:56.:40:00.

is not just the angry man on the front bench of the Labour Party,

:40:01.:40:07.

flapping his arms and shouting. Is there a lot of talk in the Labour

:40:08.:40:15.

high command that "we might not get an overall majority" ? They have to

:40:16.:40:21.

be careful about this. The official quote you will always get is that

:40:22.:40:25.

they want to win. I can't even a hint of a signal plan for coalition

:40:26.:40:32.

negotiations out. They know that in the run-up to 2010, they made a

:40:33.:40:34.

mistake in not thinking about the fact that there might be coalition

:40:35.:40:38.

negotiations. And they discovered that the Lib Dems and Tories been

:40:39.:40:41.

thinking about it very hard privately. I would be surprised if,

:40:42.:40:45.

very privately, there was not serious discussion close to Ed

:40:46.:40:49.

Miliband about what that would involve. That is why Labour now

:40:50.:40:55.

support a mansion tax, the Lib Dem policy. They are thinking about what

:40:56.:41:01.

is compatible with a Lib Dem platform, but you will never hear

:41:02.:41:08.

them say that. Fascinating. Now, should it be illegal to be

:41:09.:41:11.

annoying? You might think it sounds like a good idea. I can think of a

:41:12.:41:20.

few people! But could buskers, carol singers or even, dare I say it,

:41:21.:41:24.

political interview fall foul of the law? Well, members of the House of

:41:25.:41:28.

Lords were an annoyance to the government last night when they

:41:29.:41:32.

defeated the plans to make causing nuisance and annoyance a criminal

:41:33.:41:35.

offence. Here is what peers had to say about it. Nuisance or annoyance

:41:36.:41:44.

cannot, I would maintain, and should not be applied to the countryside,

:41:45.:41:50.

the public park, to shopping mall is, sports grounds, the high

:41:51.:41:52.

street, Parliament Square, speakers Corner and so on. Because that risks

:41:53.:41:59.

it being used against any of us and against anyone in society. It risks

:42:00.:42:06.

being used for those who seek to protest peacefully, noisy children

:42:07.:42:09.

in the street, street preachers, canvassers, carol singers, trick or

:42:10.:42:13.

treat is, church bell ringers, clay pigeon shooters, nudists. And yes,

:42:14.:42:18.

they also have raised objections with me. If people feel threatened

:42:19.:42:28.

and their lives are badly impinged upon, that is what the government is

:42:29.:42:38.

trying to prevent by this Bill. I don't want to downplay the impact of

:42:39.:42:47.

some bad behaviour on a lot of people. I want to take you back to

:42:48.:42:52.

1970s Soho, where as a young constable, I was patrolling with a

:42:53.:42:56.

much more streetwise officer, when we were approached by a large

:42:57.:43:04.

Westminster councillor who was objecting to people handing out

:43:05.:43:09.

leaflets about rent rises. He said he was really annoyed by this. And

:43:10.:43:15.

the officer I was with said "well, sir, my aunt Mabel is annoying, but

:43:16.:43:22.

I'm not going to let anybody arrest her for just being annoying" .

:43:23.:43:32.

With us now is the Home Office minister Norman Baker. It is an

:43:33.:43:36.

embarrassing defeat for the legislation, isn't it? Are you going

:43:37.:43:41.

to accept the wedding that was suggested, harassment, alarm and

:43:42.:43:43.

distress rather than nuisance or annoyance? It is certainly

:43:44.:43:48.

disappointing and I despair, having heard some of those comments. They

:43:49.:43:52.

are misinformed. It is not a criminal offence that is being

:43:53.:43:55.

proposed, it is a civil matter. There are tests of reasonableness

:43:56.:44:00.

put in to make sure we don't have aunt Mabel being arrested. But they

:44:01.:44:05.

are not convinced. That sounds as if the government has not done its job

:44:06.:44:09.

properly. Someone from the Lib Dems said these laws would be used to

:44:10.:44:14.

stamp out a plurality, to pursue children for the crime of being

:44:15.:44:17.

young and together in a public gaze. They can't be used for that. There

:44:18.:44:24.

are safe guards in place with our reasonableness test. They have to go

:44:25.:44:27.

to the courts to uphold any application. There are amendments in

:44:28.:44:30.

the Bill which I have put down with my colleagues which specifically

:44:31.:44:36.

protect political protest. This is not the end of civilisation. But

:44:37.:44:40.

they think it is. Nuisance and annoyance is a very elastic term.

:44:41.:44:47.

One person's nuisance, you must accept, would be another person's

:44:48.:44:51.

exuberance. Yes, but that is constrained by the test which are in

:44:52.:44:55.

there. It has to be just and reasonable. Then why change the

:44:56.:45:01.

wording in the first place? Because we are moving away from Labour's

:45:02.:45:07.

failed ASBO process, where people continually reoffend, despite the

:45:08.:45:11.

ASBO being given to them. We are moving to a civil standard which is

:45:12.:45:14.

better in terms of not criminalising young people. We want to deal with

:45:15.:45:23.

that and anti-social behaviour. It is silly for this to be built around

:45:24.:45:27.

words like annoyance and nuisance. This is the wrong part of the

:45:28.:45:32.

dictionary. These are words that we cannot make subject to any

:45:33.:45:36.

legislative stuff, and we shall keep on hearing about this, about aunt

:45:37.:45:45.

Mabel, and unless you make something more, this is silly. Let me stress,

:45:46.:45:52.

it is not a criminal offence for introducing this and this is an

:45:53.:45:56.

injunction they would have to grant. The fact that carol singers could be

:45:57.:46:00.

stopped is nonsense. They would be five miles down the road. What could

:46:01.:46:28.

happen? If you breach a subsequent order, that is a different problem.

:46:29.:46:38.

If somebody says the government is planning to kill every 10th child,

:46:39.:46:43.

the assumption is that the worst possible interpretation is the one

:46:44.:46:46.

the government is putting forward. But you will look at changing the

:46:47.:46:50.

wording? The House of Lords have spoken and we must look at that.

:46:51.:46:56.

Will that satisfy you? Yes, they need to look at this again and they

:46:57.:47:00.

need to change it and get rid of these silly words. We want a society

:47:01.:47:04.

in which people have the right to be annoying. I absolutely degree, no

:47:05.:47:10.

dispute. Then you must change the words. This does not do what you

:47:11.:47:15.

think it does. People should be allowed to be awkward and cause a

:47:16.:47:19.

nuisance by exercising their credit right. Some people do not like

:47:20.:47:26.

Morris dancers. But others might. As a Lib Dem, there will be many who

:47:27.:47:32.

will say, do you not feel uncomfortable about championing

:47:33.:47:36.

legislation around this framework? Anti-social behaviour was a big

:47:37.:47:39.

problem and no one doubts that this should be looked at but are you

:47:40.:47:43.

comfortable championing this in this way? I am because it does not do

:47:44.:47:50.

what opponents say it does and the did say that, I would not supported.

:47:51.:47:55.

But I am very happy to look at the wording and we shall analyse this in

:47:56.:48:00.

detail. But there is no intention from either side of the government

:48:01.:48:03.

to do anything to limit civil liberties. This is to stop

:48:04.:48:08.

anti-social behaviour. What is your response to what the Mark Duggan

:48:09.:48:15.

family is calling for? We have had a verdict from injury and we need to

:48:16.:48:18.

be careful in terms of civil liberties and the IPCC is carrying

:48:19.:48:23.

on with its investigations and that is a proper course of action and it

:48:24.:48:29.

is right that Mr Duggan's and said she wants to pursue this through

:48:30.:48:32.

proper channels rather than any other means. That is the correct

:48:33.:48:38.

response. Thank you very much. Can I clarify? Is a government policy to

:48:39.:48:44.

kill every 10th child? ! Know, every fifth child! At least we cleared

:48:45.:48:50.

that up! One answer to the population explosion! I am glad you

:48:51.:48:57.

were listening! The Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee

:48:58.:48:59.

met today and, surprise, surprise, they're sticking to a historically

:49:00.:49:06.

low interest rate of 0.5%. But should rates rise soon? Joining me

:49:07.:49:19.

to discuss the pros and cons of an interest rate rise is Nigel Mills

:49:20.:49:23.

from the North East Entrepreneur's Forum, who is against a rate rise,

:49:24.:49:26.

and Andrew Lilico from the Institute of Economic Affairs, who is in

:49:27.:49:48.

favour. The initial circumstances that justify that has passed and we

:49:49.:49:53.

should seek to normalise levels to around to present at the earliest

:49:54.:49:56.

opportunity. The Bank of England has missed really as opportunities to do

:49:57.:50:00.

that when growth was picking up but with a more sustained growth it

:50:01.:50:04.

should be taking that chance. One problem with rates being so

:50:05.:50:07.

extraordinarily low is if anything further goes wrong, there is no

:50:08.:50:11.

scope to act so we should seek to have some normalisation, but going

:50:12.:50:16.

back to 5% something overnight but raising a little bit night and

:50:17.:50:22.

taking this chance. What do you say? Interest rates should stay where

:50:23.:50:27.

they are, the recovery is extremely fragile and people are dependent on

:50:28.:50:31.

no interest rates to be able to afford mortgages and businesses

:50:32.:50:35.

depend on them to be able to pay their loans and in the absence of

:50:36.:50:41.

any sustained growth period and the absence of wages inflation, which is

:50:42.:50:47.

1.1%, I do not see any point in raising interest rates and pouring

:50:48.:50:51.

cold water on the economy at this stage. Isn't an argument that the

:50:52.:50:57.

recovery is only just getting underway and it looks like it shall

:50:58.:51:00.

be quite strong this year but there is still a lot of zombie companies

:51:01.:51:05.

out there and if they had to pay more to service the debt, they could

:51:06.:51:11.

be in trouble and lots of people with mortgages could be in trouble

:51:12.:51:16.

as well. Why rush into this? It would be helpful to liquidate some

:51:17.:51:20.

of those companies because they are tying up capital and workers could

:51:21.:51:23.

be used in more productive activities and it slows growth the

:51:24.:51:28.

medium term. Furthermore, adding such low interest rates is liable to

:51:29.:51:32.

mean that as a recovery occurs, a number of businesses take on unwise

:51:33.:51:37.

loans in order to fund non-viable projects so it would be better to

:51:38.:51:40.

take the opportunity to make things a little to eliminate the most

:51:41.:51:45.

egregious examples of zombie companies and nobody is talking

:51:46.:51:47.

about rates becoming unsupportive, we still want loose monetary but

:51:48.:51:53.

this is just to move away from the emergency levels from 2009. That is

:51:54.:52:00.

the point, the emergency is over and we wait to see the strength of the

:52:01.:52:06.

recovery but the crisis has gone both here and in the Eurozone? Not

:52:07.:52:13.

.5% is a huge historical anomaly? They will have to rise? Interest

:52:14.:52:19.

rates will have to rise in terribly, inevitably, but a long

:52:20.:52:24.

time in the future. The UK economy operates not independently but as

:52:25.:52:28.

part of the world economy and when you have lower interest rates in

:52:29.:52:36.

America, record rates in Europe, those economies slowly recover as

:52:37.:52:40.

well. Why would we put the British economy at a huge disadvantage are

:52:41.:52:46.

advocating an interest rate rise now before the recovery has retaken hold

:52:47.:52:50.

and before the benefits of that recovery have been felt? We are only

:52:51.:52:56.

talking about the minister to freight by the Bank of England but

:52:57.:53:03.

the markets a body spoken? -- administrative rate. Bonds will

:53:04.:53:11.

likely rise more and that is a return to normality and the basis

:53:12.:53:13.

upon which many companies will borrow, on 3% and this is happening,

:53:14.:53:20.

you are getting the rates rise? And I am pleased by that and I think the

:53:21.:53:23.

Bank of England is behind that curve. As illustrated by the broader

:53:24.:53:29.

yields. Does it matter if it is behind the curve? Because one of the

:53:30.:53:36.

dangers that we can see is once we get into recovery, the enormous

:53:37.:53:40.

amount of printing gets leveraged as Hanks look healthier and they are

:53:41.:53:46.

more willing to lend and we have had a strong recovery over the past year

:53:47.:53:49.

with bank lending continuing to contract and that started to rise,

:53:50.:53:54.

we could see a rise in broad money that was difficult to control which

:53:55.:53:58.

might lead into an unsustainable and one of the key things is to act

:53:59.:54:04.

early. It is a mistake to wait until everything looks like it is

:54:05.:54:06.

completely sweet because by then, you might be too late to act to

:54:07.:54:11.

prevent the next crisis. We shall have to leave it there. Thank you.

:54:12.:54:16.

If success in leadership is measured by how badly your organisation does

:54:17.:54:19.

after you leave then if there were any doubts about Alex Ferguson's

:54:20.:54:21.

credentials, then Manchester United's losing streak since he

:54:22.:54:24.

stood down have perhaps confirmed his brilliance. And with Fergie at a

:54:25.:54:28.

loose end, where should he direct his energies next? Well, one Labour

:54:29.:54:32.

MP has written to Ed Miliband urging him to call on the Labour supporter

:54:33.:54:35.

and donor's talents in the run-up to next year's general election. You

:54:36.:55:01.

were a left winger playing football? ! I was not a great footballer? My

:55:02.:55:12.

brother was a goalkeeper. Fascinating insight into the talents

:55:13.:55:16.

of Ed Miliband! We're joined now by the Labour MP John Mann and Michael

:55:17.:55:19.

Crick, who has written a biography of Alex Ferguson. Y Alex Ferguson?

:55:20.:55:28.

What can he do for the Labour Party? Leadership. He is a proven leader, a

:55:29.:55:40.

proven winner, and if he was to use his test on all of our policies,

:55:41.:55:44.

that would root out ones that will not actually persuade the British

:55:45.:55:49.

people. He would be a big asset to shake things up. Is it because Ed

:55:50.:55:55.

Miliband is not providing leadership or there is not enough morale? We

:55:56.:56:02.

always need a better cutting edge and I think Sir Alex Ferguson could

:56:03.:56:08.

give that. And make sure the entire Cabinet is performing as a team.

:56:09.:56:12.

They are not gelling together? They can always improve and to win this

:56:13.:56:17.

election, that kind of leadership at the top and that kind of advice

:56:18.:56:25.

would be very valuable indeed. I am sure Ed Miliband is considering this

:56:26.:56:29.

and I am sure that Sir Alex will be called upon. Would the chemistry

:56:30.:56:34.

work? It would be perfect because what leaders need, to become Prime

:56:35.:56:39.

Minister, Ed Miliband has to surround himself by people not

:56:40.:56:43.

liking. It is what Tony Blair did, Campbell, Mandelson. Alex Ferguson

:56:44.:56:49.

is not like Ed Miliband. They are poles apart. Is this a brilliant

:56:50.:56:56.

idea? You have kept a straight face! I am absolutely amazed! This is a

:56:57.:57:04.

joke? ! No, it is not! I am a Chelsea fan. Do you believe football

:57:05.:57:09.

managers could help? This is nonsense but there was a load of

:57:10.:57:15.

divisiveness that surrounds Sir Alex Ferguson, people think he is a

:57:16.:57:20.

bully. He is a great leader? You will not push me on that, I am blue

:57:21.:57:27.

to the core. There is no way that micro-you might be read in

:57:28.:57:31.

politics... That is part of the problem politics has. Abraham

:57:32.:57:36.

Lincoln brought his enemies into the camp and I am saying to Ed Miliband,

:57:37.:57:41.

who is a Leeds fan, bring our archenemy, Sir Alex Ferguson, in,

:57:42.:57:50.

let his skills work. There is a move to draft Sir Alex Ferguson into the

:57:51.:57:52.

no campaign for Scottish independence. There's just time

:57:53.:57:56.

before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was: What

:57:57.:58:00.

new TV programme has BNP leader Nick Griffin launched on his party's

:58:01.:58:03.

website? His own fitness and work-out DVD? A cookery programme?

:58:04.:58:06.

An interior design show? Or a money advice service? What's the correct

:58:07.:58:13.

answer? I do not know! A cookery programme. In case you're not a

:58:14.:58:19.

regular viewer of BNP TV, here are the not-so-subtle political messages

:58:20.:58:21.

that Mr Griffin managed to shoehorn into his show: Look at this that

:58:22.:58:24.

micro-2 carrots, some sweet. You cannot have too much sweet, unless

:58:25.:58:29.

you are good. English cookery was the best in for centuries. Very

:58:30.:58:34.

advanced, great mixture of spices. It became very simple after the

:58:35.:58:40.

Hanoverian skim over from Germany and they had a very bland form of

:58:41.:58:45.

cookery. Don't let people tell you you must have huge drummers of

:58:46.:58:50.

immigrants to have good cooking. We have Mexican and Italian restaurants

:58:51.:58:54.

not far from here. No worries for Nigella Lawson! That's all for

:58:55.:59:05.

today. I am back at 11:35pm tonight. Katie Hopkins joins me. Goodbye.

:59:06.:59:08.

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by former Canon Chancellor of St Paul's Cathedral Giles Fraser to discuss all the latest political news, including an interview with Minister for the Cabinet Office Francis Maude on the government's digital strategy.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS