04/04/2014 Daily Politics


04/04/2014

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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Maria Miller has

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been ordered to repay thousands of pounds in expenses and told to

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apologise. The view from Fleet Street this morning is that the

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punishment doesn't fit the crime. So has she been let off with a slap on

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the wrist, or are the papers just unhappy about plans for press

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regulation? The polls say Nigel picnic by a big margin. Just how

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Eurosceptic is the British public? People of Quebec know a thing or two

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about independence referendums. They have had two. There are some

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surprising similarities with this year's vote in Scotland. And in this

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week's least shopping News, David Cameron shops at Waitrose, which is

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your choice of supermarkets say about you?

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today are

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two journalists more likely to be found in the aisles of a pound shop

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than a super-market for the well-heeled - it's Anne McElvoy from

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the Economist and Kevin Maguire from the Mirror. Well it's true of one of

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them anyway, I'll let you decide which. Let's start with Maria

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Miller. After a 14-month investigation into expenses claimed

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on her London home, the culture secretary was told yesterday she had

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to repay ?5,800 and apologise for her "attitude" during the inquiry.

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The Commons Committee on Standards, that's made up of MPs, cleared her

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of making false expenses claims but said she'd overclaimed on her

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mortgage payments. It did so by a lot less than the commission had

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conceded. The papers this morning are far from happy, making the

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familiar claim that when it comes to expenses, MPs still don't get it.

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And the apology itself hasn't gone down well. Here it is in its

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entirety. It's not that long! With permission, I wish to make a

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personal statement in Russian to today's report. The report resulted

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from an allegation made by the member for Bassetlaw. The committee

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has dismissed his allegation. The committee has recommended that I

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apologised to the house for my attitude cheering the

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commissioners's enquiries and I of course unreservedly apologise. I

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fully accept the reconditioned of the committee and thank them for

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bringing this matter to an end. -- accept the recommendations.

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That was Maria Miller apologising to the Commons yesterday. We're joined

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now by our political correspondent Iain Watson. How strong is the

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feeling in Westminster and the media that the punishment hasn't fitted

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the crime? It's pretty strong in the media. Not quite as strong at

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Westminster, as you can imagine, Labour MPs are bee sting in, the man

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who made the original complaint is criticising the committee on

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standards because in their weighty tome, this report, most of it is

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made up of correspondence between her and the parliamentary standards

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Commissioner, the person who carries out the initial enquiry. The

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Commissioner said she should pay back ?45,000, in the end of the

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committee, made up largely of MPs, decided she should pay back only

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?5,800, the amount she identified as an administrative error on her

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mortgage. They are saying this is a cover-up for MPs, marking their own

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homework, another Labour MP is saying the police should look into

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the matter. When it comes to her own colleagues, they are saying, she

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should have handled this better perhaps, the brevity of this apology

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was inappropriate, nonetheless the key, central allegation that she is

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using taxpayers money to fund a home for her parents was disproved, and

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because that was the case, there are not huge to see Asians for her. When

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she was asked a second time, in the wake of the report, in the wake of

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that apology, the Prime Minister gave his backing to Maria Miller.

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But apprentice delay was that Maria Miller was cleared of the original

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charge made against -- what happened yesterday. She made mistakes, except

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that, repaid the money, apologised unreservedly to the House of

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Commons, so we should leave it there. Denning Street are sticking

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by them, what happens next? If there is a reshuffled post, the rumours

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are that she might be heading west rather than South, Cardiff, becoming

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the next Secretary of State for Wales. But certainly, David Cameron

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is keen to keep women at the Cabinet table but perhaps not in that

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current role. The reason she might not stay in that is she's normally

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in charge of the writers of regulating the press as culture

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secretary and many are saying that Westminster are much more hostile

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does smaller, about MPs covering this up, the reaction was perhaps

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driven by the fact that she agreed with other politicians, in setting

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up his royal charter on present regulation. Not much has happened

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since and most of the press have been able to do their own thing. The

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press themselves have been critical, not just of Maria Miller, what some

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are calling her arrogance, but also suggesting that MPs expenses could

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be back on the agenda again. Her political career isn't over but she

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may be up for a change sometime soon. I'm sure that has cheered up

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the people of Wales this morning! The former Telegraph editor Tony

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Gallagher was on the Today programme this morning. He accused Maria

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Miller of "breathtaking arrogance", and he repeated his claim that David

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Cameron's Director of Communications, a man called Craig

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Oliver, of personally putting pressure on Tony Gallagher not to

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publish a story about Maria Miller's expenses. Craig Oliver reacted

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angrily to that allegation, he said: "'It is utterly false for Tony

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Gallagher to suggest he was threatened over Leveson by me in any

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way. That was a reference to Maria

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Miller's parents, who were at the centre of the original Telegraph

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story. They were in the house that she was claiming for. So let's talk

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to the man who's made the allegation, former Telegraph editor

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Tony Gallagher, he joins us now from North London. Craig Oliver, saying

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that you are lying, in effect. Can you hear me? OK. We usually get live

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to Baghdad without a problem, but getting to North London is defeating

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the gremlins... Or at least the gremlins are defeating us! We were

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trying to get that line back to Mr Gallagher.

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We're joined now by Shaun Kemp, he worked for the Lib Dems and was

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deputy head of press at Downing Street. What do you make of these

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claims? Craig Oliver said he made no threats. I remember when this was

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going on, the account of the conversation was not true. We will

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hear what Tony says in an Quebec, but I had no idea he was such a

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sensitive flower, that one phone call could upset him to that extent,

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that is not quite the reputation he has had more generally. I think it

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is a comfortable for our press person to ring up a newspaper when a

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family is being approached by a newspaper. The press officer is then

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entitled to say, the family are distressed, they don't want to speak

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to you, please speak to be MP's office. Let's see if we have made

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contact now. Can you hear me now? Very well. I apologised to the

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technical glitch. We quoted Craig Oliver's statement there, saying it

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is utterly falls, his words, for you to suggest that he threatened you

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over Leveson in any way. He's effectively accusing you of lying.

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I'm very happy to discuss Craig Oliver all day, but he hasn't really

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addressed the key issue and in rushing out a denial, he has made

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the story about Craig Oliver Rather than the more substantive point that

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this is all about press freedom and the threats to them. He was only the

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third call that the Telegraph call. The first, more sinister call, was

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made by Maria Miller's special adviser to my reporter, essentially

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to warn her of the story. "Maria Miller has been having a lot of

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meetings around Leveson, you might want to talk to people higher up

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your organisation. " Miss Hindley then spoke to an executive at the

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Telegraph to point that out, we then got a third call from Craig Oliver

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who pointed out, " she is looking at Leveson, the call is badly timed".

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If you are making a series of phone calls to a newspaper investigating

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the conduct of a Cabinet minister, that comes close to menace. Bear in

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mind, there was quite a climate of anti-press hysteria in the aftermath

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of Leveson, so when a cabinet minister's advises ring up

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newspapers in that fashion and warned them in that fashion, they

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are bound to take the threats seriously. Happily, we decided we

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would publish. I will come back to Mr Oliver, there is a very

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interesting set of examples you have given their of pressure being put on

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the newspaper in the context of Leveson. What evidence can you offer

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to substantiate these claims? Reported most of this at the time. I

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don't think it's disputed that Joanna Hindley rang the Daily

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Telegraph and was recorded making those threats. The fact we are

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debating it now is really in the aftermath of the report. It was all

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debated fully at the time. So if need be, you could furnish the

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evidence to substantiate that, including recordings? Yes, I think

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we could. More broadly, of course... Craig Oliver says he spoke to you

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because your journalists were harassing members of Miss Miller's

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family, is that true? It's a bit late to be raising the spectre of

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harassment of a family, 16 months after the event. I would suggest it

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is a smoke screen. It is a Cabinet minister who wanted to muzzle the

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freedom... I don't recall that at all. If we want to discuss that

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issue, it should be pointed out that the reporter in question had an

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amicable conversation lasting under ten minutes with Maria Miller's

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father on the doorstep. He was even a Telegraph reader. He was not in

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any way distressed commie didn't seem harassed, and she left after he

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didn't want to talk about it in detail. So there was no question of

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harassment. Just to clarify, are you saying that Craig Oliver at the time

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did not raise concerns about the behaviour of the Daily Telegraph

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towards the Miller family? The point of his phone call and my clear

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recollection of this was that it was in the context of Leveson. Bear in

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mind the climate of anti-press hysteria at the time, every

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newspaper was super-sensitive about the prospect of Leveson proposals

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being implement it and being caught up in a scandal in the wake of the

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report. In mind that both newspapers and editors can recount similar

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conversations with government spin doctors over the past 12 months.

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MPs, officials, businessmen, will always the spectre of newspapers.

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Special advisers regularly have conversations with journalists and

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editors, we speak to them, they are always private conversations stop

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why did you decide to break the privacy and publish the Hindley

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conversations? We decided to do that because they were calling into

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question the veracity of what the reporters had said, and we wouldn't

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have otherwise made those conversations public. But they lied

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about the nature of what it was that we were attempting to prove. They

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were trying to throw up a smoke screen around the important fact

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that Maria Miller had wrongly claimed expenses and they told lies

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about my reporters, and I wasn't there to have their integrity

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challenged. Once they came the integrity of the staff, I will

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afraid we decided that the convention by which we wouldn't

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publish the conversations was abandoned. Did it also play to your

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anti-medicine agenda as well? You could say that. Undoubtedly, we have

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a dog in the fight. Maria Miller, in many ways, has done us a tremendous

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favour. Her conduct and that of her advisers has shown very clearly why

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no politician should ever be allowed near the press. Once they get their

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hands on the press, it will only go one way. They cannot resist keeping

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their hands off the press. You saw how the House of Commons voted

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overwhelmingly in favour of a Royal Charter. MPs hate us for the fact

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they exposed our expenses troubles back in 2009 and they are desperate

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to get one over us and ensure, in one way, there's that is on our

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throats. Given your experience with the special adviser of Maria Miller

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and what we have now seen the Parliamentary Commissioner has said

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about the expenses. I put aside happy MPs voted. Do you believe

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Maria Miller is fit to be Culture Secretary? I do not have a view, one

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way or another, as to whether Maria Miller should resign. That is a

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matter for David Cameron and the Government. What I should say is I

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think she got off extraordinary lightly, which is perhaps inevitable

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given there are 13 MPs mocking their own homework and defending one of

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their own. The language in the report is extraordinary. If similar

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language when used about a newspaper editor, that person would be out on

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their ear by close of play. Another thing, if this was a benefit

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claimants, that benefit claimant would have had police involved very

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quickly. I am rather surprised that we do not yet have the spectre of a

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police enquiry into this matter. It seems to me, at the very least,

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there is something worth investigating about her conduct. I

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am sorry about the sound problems we had at the beginning of the

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interview. What do you make of what you have just heard? I can

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understand if the Joanna Hindley Frenkel is as described. They said

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they had a recording of it. -- phone call is as described. I do not think

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it is true there are numerous conversations threatening Leveson..

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It is a full to go around suggesting you can threaten journalists. She

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really tried to warn the Telegraph of the expenses story, Maria Miller.

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Not by saying it is not true or this is outrageous, or we will see you,

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saying, we would like to point out that Miss Miller is in charge of the

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Leveson process. Sign that is not a conversation that should happen.

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Should that not be a resignation? She threatened the press. You are

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the minister responsible for some new press regulation system. Because

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they have a story which is unpalatable to you, you don't

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threaten the press with this new regulation system. It is something

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special adviser should not be doing. Sky it is something a special

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adviser should not be doing. -- it is something a special adviser

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should not be doing. With Maria Miller, based on what we have heard

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from Tony Gallagher, and assuming this tape of the conversation

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exists, I think that creates a very grave problem. To make the linkage

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at the time after Leveson, when there was a particularly sensitive

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mood, not enough weight has been put upon the statement that reporters

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should be aware. To my ears, people bend my ear and say they will talk

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to... Editors, the proprietor, all the rest of it. Sign it is intended

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to back off. Maria Miller, we have not really heard in that brief

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apology, anything what she thinks about the behaviour. As we had been

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on air, Craig Oliver has been watching our interview and e-mail is

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to say, I am very clear I had a conversation about an old man who

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was distressed. That was the father of Miss Miller. There was no threat

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in any way over Leveson. Tony Gallagher is talking rubbish about

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me and you can use that. I was there at the time and I remembered the

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reaction of Craig on the day and it was as he described. I will find

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Maria Miller behind her elderly parents and add that to hire charge

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sheet. She has taken thousands and thousands of pounds of taxpayers

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money. All lies and threat should be on the record. I would love the

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Telegraph to put that recording on the website. We should all listen.

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Remember, Vince cable, when he was recorded by the Daily Telegraph,

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although it leaked out in an odd way, he was making threats about

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BSkyB and the Murdoch takeover. He had responsibility for that removed.

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Why was the responsibility for press regulation removed from Maria Miller

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when she is making threats, or her special adviser is making threats

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about Leveson and press regulation because of the own behaviour of her

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family? She went higher up the chain. That seems to be a problem.

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There was a resignation due to the fact that 9/11 was called a good day

:20:10.:20:16.

to bury bad news. It is about Maria Miller expenses and relations with

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the press. I feel uncomfortable about getting into conversations

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with advisers, important as they are. One thing I do want to know...

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Miss Hindley was not acting on behalf of the minister. We have

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every reason to believe she was. Do not be wary of that. Let's Maria

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Miller say, my special adviser was acting without my knowledge and

:20:43.:20:49.

approval. Is she still special adviser? I believe she has left. It

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is about Tony Gallagher saying, stories like this would never happen

:20:55.:21:02.

if we had Leveson. There is now a suspicion that would be the case. If

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he was able to run a leader on that day... There is a big worry. You

:21:08.:21:12.

have a worrying story in the newspaper about journalists in

:21:13.:21:15.

Croydon being threatened by police for doing the job of good

:21:16.:21:21.

journalism. On both sides, let's not say it would stop any story about

:21:22.:21:24.

expenses being published, of course it should. Every Tom, Dick and Harry

:21:25.:21:33.

it was sending letters citing Leveson. Some people who are now

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facing very serious trials and I will not name them for reasons of

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contempt. It seems here, the Culture Secretary, the message was comic you

:21:44.:21:46.

investigate my expenses collect you expose what I have been doing and

:21:47.:21:50.

press revelation will come down tough on you. That is a very serious

:21:51.:21:56.

threat. The wider story in there is about expenses is that the

:21:57.:21:59.

independent investigation is quite damning on Maria Miller. The MPs in

:22:00.:22:05.

The House water it down and she has too apologise for a matter of

:22:06.:22:09.

process, rather than expenses and pay a much smaller amount back. They

:22:10.:22:13.

are still marking their own homework, aren't they? They are.

:22:14.:22:19.

There is a big divide between the press and MPs, including some who

:22:20.:22:27.

are not involved in expenses scandal or alleged scandals. They do feel we

:22:28.:22:30.

have gone over the top. There is a myth that says, we have had enough

:22:31.:22:34.

of this. Maria Miller is lucky in her timing. Had it come out

:22:35.:22:40.

earlier, Tony McNulty had to resign en contra Bull situations. Some

:22:41.:22:43.

people will say the press has gone over the top. -- on comparable

:22:44.:22:52.

situations. I do not know whether to laugh or cry. One of the big,

:22:53.:22:57.

legitimate complaints about the old commission is that editors sat in

:22:58.:23:02.

judgment on editors. MPs would make that criticism. MPs are sitting in

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judgment on their own. I cannot remember a single case when they

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have come in with a heavier penalty after reading this report from their

:23:12.:23:14.

own commission. They always softened. They should have a voice

:23:15.:23:23.

in the system but they have to get away from the system of marking

:23:24.:23:28.

their own homework. If the Culture Secretary thought this would go away

:23:29.:23:32.

after her apology, she was sadly wrong. Now, did you think you'd get

:23:33.:23:36.

through the whole show without us mentioning Nick Clegg versus Nigel

:23:37.:23:39.

Farage? Well, how wrong you were. I've done it already. But whoever

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won, and the polls were united in giving it to Farage, Britain's

:23:43.:23:45.

relationship with the EU has been under the spotlight and that's going

:23:46.:23:49.

to continue to next month's European elections and beyond. So, what does

:23:50.:23:54.

the public think about the EU? Well, the Daily Politics has been working

:23:55.:23:57.

with the polling firm, Populus. They have been working on something

:23:58.:23:59.

called voter segmentation, which breaks the electorate down according

:24:00.:24:08.

to their values. This week they asked people their opinion of

:24:09.:24:12.

membership of the European Union. 28% of those asked said they were

:24:13.:24:16.

positive about the UK being in the EU but 30% said they felt negatively

:24:17.:24:19.

about membership of the EU and thought we would be better off out.

:24:20.:24:28.

16% said that they were negative about membership of the EU, but felt

:24:29.:24:33.

that we would be worse off if we left. 26% didn't feel strongly

:24:34.:24:39.

either way. We then asked our polling group how they would vote if

:24:40.:24:42.

there was a referendum on our membership of the EU. 32% said they

:24:43.:24:48.

would vote to leave, 35% said they would vote to stay, 27% said they

:24:49.:24:52.

didn't know how they would vote, and 6% said they wouldn't vote at all.

:24:53.:25:06.

They could not have been watching the debate. To steer us through

:25:07.:25:11.

this, we're joined by Rick Nye from Populus. Am I right in thinking this

:25:12.:25:18.

poll shows the in/out difference rather more finely balanced than

:25:19.:25:23.

previous polls. The last time we asked it, back in the autumn of last

:25:24.:25:28.

year, it was roughly the same. A third saying stay in, a third saying

:25:29.:25:31.

come out and a quarter saying they do not know. What is interesting is

:25:32.:25:35.

how the different voter types breakdown. When you look at some of

:25:36.:25:39.

those figures, you understand why it is that Nick Clegg and Nigel for Raj

:25:40.:25:46.

agreed to debate one another. You have segmented society into six

:25:47.:25:52.

different groups. -- Nigel Farage. On the in /out referendum, how do

:25:53.:25:57.

these groups break out? When I look at it, it is long-term despair and

:25:58.:26:02.

hard-pressed anxiety, people who most want to leave. And comfortable

:26:03.:26:09.

list out. The point about it is, if you are Nigel for Raj may you have

:26:10.:26:15.

already made significant inroads into comfortable nostalgia. -- Nigel

:26:16.:26:25.

Farage. You now want to make inroads into Labour territory. If you are

:26:26.:26:29.

Nick Clegg, you want to establish your left of centre credibility with

:26:30.:26:33.

the cosmopolitan critics who may have voted for you in 2010 but have

:26:34.:26:37.

not forgiven you for putting in the Tories thereafter. Who would be the

:26:38.:26:45.

swing demographic? Two really. Optimistic contentment, who tend to

:26:46.:26:49.

be more pro-European even though conservatives do better in that

:26:50.:26:52.

group because of the higher income and higher social grade. As ever,

:26:53.:26:57.

calm persistence, who are least engaged. A third of them say they do

:26:58.:27:01.

not know what they would do will stop they are evenly divided between

:27:02.:27:06.

in and out after that. When you look at the biggest group, comfortable

:27:07.:27:11.

list out, hard-pressed anxiety, long-term despair. They are the

:27:12.:27:15.

biggest groups that would vote to leave. You get a sense that Nigel

:27:16.:27:21.

Farage knew what he was doing in the debate because he pressed their

:27:22.:27:26.

batons. Calm persistence makes up one in three voters. Optimistic

:27:27.:27:36.

contentment with bowed to stay in and calm persistence would vote to

:27:37.:27:42.

come out. -- would vote. Should he have been doing more to try to get

:27:43.:27:47.

them rather than pressing the buttons of those he has either

:27:48.:27:54.

already got or are not huge demographics in society? That is a

:27:55.:27:58.

dilemma for Nigel Farage. He could throw me to people who are inclined

:27:59.:28:02.

to buy his vision of Britain out of Europe. They are comfortable list

:28:03.:28:07.

out on the one hand or people who feel most hard-pressed, economically

:28:08.:28:16.

or access to income. All comic you try a generally more soft message to

:28:17.:28:21.

woo those people who are better off feel less threatened but still have

:28:22.:28:25.

issues with the European Union. At the moment he has chosen a Rather

:28:26.:28:29.

than being. If you are on the side of wanting to get out, this poll is

:28:30.:28:35.

not great news for you. You would want to go into a referendum

:28:36.:28:40.

campaign with quite a big lead. It is the establishment of eye Joe

:28:41.:28:47.

Farage. The weight of them will have narrowed down any leader you may

:28:48.:28:55.

have. -- Nigel Farage. It is about how fragmented the picture is one

:28:56.:28:58.

thing about breaking it down, between the social groups, it is

:28:59.:29:04.

such the shifting picture. I think the difficulty then is it you are

:29:05.:29:08.

running a no campaign, how do you pitch it? Do you go with Nigel

:29:09.:29:13.

Farage as counter revolutionary zeal? That will put off the calm

:29:14.:29:21.

persistence and people who do not want to be unstable. I think it is a

:29:22.:29:31.

challenge. The devil has the best tunes. He can shout and shout. Most

:29:32.:29:36.

people approach it in a more practical way. They may not say, I

:29:37.:29:46.

want to seeing Ode to Joy that they see the practical reasons. When he

:29:47.:29:52.

needs to make a more positive case, that is when he full stamp. I was in

:29:53.:29:58.

the minority last night on that debate. That's because you are a

:29:59.:30:08.

cosmopolitan cryptic! Provincial, living in the suburbs! Music to my

:30:09.:30:27.

is! -- my ears. How big is the cosmopolitan critic, only 14% of

:30:28.:30:34.

them would bow to leave. They are only about one in ten of all voters.

:30:35.:30:38.

They may include all media types but only one in ten. You are still in

:30:39.:30:49.

favour of staying in. But don't feel good about it. That's probably where

:30:50.:30:54.

I am. That's interesting in terms of your question, how do those voters,

:30:55.:31:00.

had of a breakdown? Governorate is interesting regionally, in the

:31:01.:31:07.

populace, the Northwest is much more sceptical than the south-east. Quite

:31:08.:31:15.

wide reaching the regional variations. Scotland tends to be

:31:16.:31:23.

more prone. But what you get overtime is a lot more of those

:31:24.:31:26.

Labour voting segments north of the border. It is safe so the Tories

:31:27.:31:31.

don't do well up there. Some of those segments are beginning to get

:31:32.:31:37.

sceptical about union membership. Thank you very much, fascinating.

:31:38.:31:43.

Good to aggregate these voters into different groups, you see what both

:31:44.:31:46.

sides of the argument have two target.

:31:47.:31:53.

A left-wing nationalist party comes to power. They decide to hold a

:31:54.:31:56.

referendum on independence. The no campaign is ahead but their lead

:31:57.:31:59.

starts to dwindle. Sound familiar? It's basically what's happening in

:32:00.:32:02.

Scotland but also how things played out in Quebec - where a vote on

:32:03.:32:10.

separation was held in 1995. Adam pushed the Daily Politics travel

:32:11.:32:13.

budget to breaking point to see if there are any parallels.

:32:14.:32:26.

No, not Montreal, Vancouver, it is a Canadian themed park up the road

:32:27.:32:31.

from the office, where I'm going to ponder the 1995 independent

:32:32.:32:34.

referendum in Quebec, the bit of the country that looks and sounds ever

:32:35.:32:42.

so is French. Get a load of the question! Even in English, it is a

:32:43.:32:46.

bit long and exceptionally complicated. The no camp were known

:32:47.:32:52.

as the Federalists because they wanted to maintain a federal Canada,

:32:53.:32:55.

the yes camp were known as the sovereignists, because they wanted

:32:56.:32:58.

Quebec to be sovereign. The yes, or oui, campaign was a bit vague with

:32:59.:33:02.

lots of questions about what independence really meant and what

:33:03.:33:05.

would happen to state assets like the post office. The no campaign

:33:06.:33:10.

started with a big lead but then the polls narrowed, narrowed and

:33:11.:33:14.

narrowed again. Those who have studied it say the Federalists

:33:15.:33:19.

emphasised too many negatives. You talk about one risk, people pay

:33:20.:33:22.

attention. You talk about two risks, people pay attention. You start to

:33:23.:33:27.

talk about three, or four or five, then either people start to say,

:33:28.:33:31.

well, this just isn't credible any more and stop paying attention, or

:33:32.:33:34.

it starts to annoy them so much it has a counter intuitive effect and

:33:35.:33:38.

pushes them towards the very side you are trying to draw them away

:33:39.:33:44.

from. Right at the last minute, the no campaign brought in loads of

:33:45.:33:47.

Canadians for a rally where they pleaded with the Quebeckers to stay,

:33:48.:33:51.

much to the annoyance of the sovereignists. We had train

:33:52.:33:58.

companies and air companies subsidising travel on that date in

:33:59.:34:03.

Montreal. People were saying, that does kind of count as a referendum

:34:04.:34:07.

contribution, or engagement in a referendum campaign. You cannot do

:34:08.:34:12.

that. It did work and the final result was really close. 50.6% to

:34:13.:34:21.

the noes and 49.4% of the yeses, a margin of just over one percentage

:34:22.:34:24.

point. I wonder if they celebrated with the national dish, served by a

:34:25.:34:28.

genuine Quebecker. Have the SNP been ingesting anything Canadian? I was

:34:29.:34:35.

chatting to a senior figure in the yes campaign, who said they have

:34:36.:34:38.

imported three lessons from Canada. Prepare for dirty tricks, get

:34:39.:34:41.

started campaigning early and, most importantly, do not lose. The last

:34:42.:34:48.

one seems obvious but it is a reference to what happened

:34:49.:34:50.

afterwards. Canada passed the Clarity Act, legislation which makes

:34:51.:34:52.

separation in future much, much trickier.

:34:53.:34:59.

And we can speak now to the Telegraph's Scottish editor Alan

:35:00.:35:03.

Cochrane, and Joyce McMillan from the Scotsman - they're both in

:35:04.:35:10.

Edinburgh. Alan, I have got to come to you first because we may lose the

:35:11.:35:13.

line shortly. What lessons would you draw from the Quebec campaign? Not

:35:14.:35:19.

very many. I was in Canada at the end of the year, sitting next to a

:35:20.:35:24.

French Canadian who was aghast at the prospect of another referendum.

:35:25.:35:29.

The separatists are not very sure they should have a referendum

:35:30.:35:32.

because they think they will get hammered. The one lesson that the

:35:33.:35:35.

yes campaign in Scotland could take is, the simple reason that the

:35:36.:35:41.

separatists got so close in 1995 is they changed their leader. They were

:35:42.:35:46.

miles behind until they got rid of their leader, so there is a message

:35:47.:35:49.

for the Nationalists, dump Alex Salmond. Joyce, I have a feeling

:35:50.:35:57.

that isn't going to happen? No, I get the feeling that Alex Salmond is

:35:58.:36:00.

an effective and popular leader as far as most Scottish voters are

:36:01.:36:04.

concerned. The comparison is interesting but I think we are

:36:05.:36:10.

living in different times from 1995. Although that's only 19 years ago,

:36:11.:36:15.

the processes of globalisation and so on have shifted a long way.

:36:16.:36:19.

Britain is part of the new which changes the whole and additional

:36:20.:36:26.

structure anyway. -- part of the EU. But the outcome may well be similar,

:36:27.:36:30.

I would be surprised if the SNP were as close as 49% that they might be

:36:31.:36:38.

in the 40s. Is it your view that they are going to lose? Well, I

:36:39.:36:46.

think if you look at the balance of the polls, it is still likely that

:36:47.:36:53.

the no campaign will age it. I would say so. There's been sign of any

:36:54.:36:58.

poll in which the yes campaign has been ahead. But it certainly has the

:36:59.:37:02.

momentum. We don't know what will happen over the next few months, I

:37:03.:37:06.

would be surprised if they made it to a majority, but the fact is, if

:37:07.:37:11.

they lose, that momentum is not entirely going to go away and what

:37:12.:37:16.

people not in Scotland sometimes can't be aware of because they don't

:37:17.:37:21.

get the press coverage is just how dominant the SNP has become in

:37:22.:37:24.

Scottish politics, and not entirely in a bad way. They have the

:37:25.:37:30.

grassroots strength that a lot of other political parties would give

:37:31.:37:33.

their right arm for and that will not vanish. If we have a vote in

:37:34.:37:38.

which the independence campaign loses by a small amount, will they

:37:39.:37:42.

be pressure to have another referendum sooner rather than later?

:37:43.:37:47.

There might well be but much more worrying is the bitterness that this

:37:48.:37:51.

campaign is engendering on a daily basis. I can't see the nationalist

:37:52.:37:57.

community accepting defeat wastefully, and I'm not sure that I

:37:58.:38:03.

would accept a vote for separation very well either -- gracefully. This

:38:04.:38:08.

is a campaign that is getting more bitter all the time and I have real

:38:09.:38:13.

worries about how we are going to get this country back together after

:38:14.:38:17.

the referendum. It is a very divided society right now. More bitter? I

:38:18.:38:25.

know there are a lot of people on the no side, who perceive a huge

:38:26.:38:28.

level of bitterness, I must say that is not my perception. I never read

:38:29.:38:35.

the bottom half of the Internet, but you don't need to pay any attention

:38:36.:38:40.

to that, most of it is anonymous. If you focus on the yes campaign, which

:38:41.:38:43.

is tremendously inventive and great fun, it has the rather enjoyable.

:38:44.:38:52.

That is not having industrialists feel, when the travel agent this

:38:53.:38:59.

week said to his employees, I don't believe in independence can but

:39:00.:39:05.

absolutely hammered... People are allowed to say they don't agree with

:39:06.:39:09.

him and they are allowed to say he shouldn't be abusing his position as

:39:10.:39:16.

a boss. He was subject to a vicious campaign. Read the online site and

:39:17.:39:24.

see what they say to people in the Scotsman who dare to say they

:39:25.:39:28.

disagree with the Nationalists. Why do I need to read the voices of a

:39:29.:39:33.

few sad cases in front of the machine? Allen, we are going to lose

:39:34.:39:41.

you, don't ask you, the rest of Canada piled into Quebec just before

:39:42.:39:45.

the referendum with a big message, don't go we want you to stay. Should

:39:46.:39:50.

the rest of Britain who want to keep the union together be doing the same

:39:51.:39:55.

in Scotland? I hope they did. I think there is a press conference up

:39:56.:39:58.

the road, and they are saying much the same, from England, Wales,

:39:59.:40:06.

Northern Ireland, please stay, I welcome the support from everyone.

:40:07.:40:11.

There are too many appear querying the pitch for the rest of us. There

:40:12.:40:17.

was this unnamed Cabinet minister who talked about a deal that could

:40:18.:40:24.

be done whereby Scotland would get monetary union in independence, but

:40:25.:40:29.

it would involve holding on to the nuclear submarines for an

:40:30.:40:36.

unspecified time and the warheads. How would that go down with Alex

:40:37.:40:39.

Salmond's supporters of a deal like that were done? The secret was in

:40:40.:40:45.

your last half sentence. If they could find a way of moving the

:40:46.:40:49.

warheads out of Scotland, then the deal could be done. That's more

:40:50.:40:54.

difficult than moving the submarines. Possibly, I don't know,

:40:55.:41:02.

the submarines are very large. I think that the SNP, removal of the

:41:03.:41:09.

nuclear weapons such is pretty well non-negotiable. But everything else

:41:10.:41:12.

about those bases is negotiable including the physical presence of

:41:13.:41:15.

the submarines and the maintenance of them. That would be my guess. We

:41:16.:41:22.

are assuming that the boat is yes on September we don't know that, but if

:41:23.:41:26.

Mr Salmond was to say to his people, the only way we can get

:41:27.:41:29.

monetary union, which is popular in Scotland, is we have to allow the

:41:30.:41:38.

space to this base to stay for ten, 20 years. That would be a problem,

:41:39.:41:45.

you think? It would depend on the timespan. 20 years sounds long.

:41:46.:41:48.

People in Scotland are expecting that there would ten years of

:41:49.:41:56.

negotiating various things. I don't think it could all be done within a

:41:57.:41:59.

decade, people might find that acceptable, but I'm only guessing

:42:00.:42:10.

here. Final word. Is the better better campaign in trouble? The fact

:42:11.:42:17.

that all the parties hate each other, there have been problems. The

:42:18.:42:21.

yes campaign has dismissed all of their original directors. The better

:42:22.:42:29.

today -- better together campaign has been... We have had one idiot

:42:30.:42:36.

sniping this week. He is obviously in the frame. I don't think, one of

:42:37.:42:42.

the Berlin din chats wouldn't say... I am paraphrasing. Just so

:42:43.:42:53.

you would understand. We have got the subtitles up. Thanks very much

:42:54.:42:56.

to both of you, come back and mark our cars again. We didn't lose him

:42:57.:43:06.

in the end. Our next guest is the only

:43:07.:43:10.

politician of Chinese descent in any UK legislature and one of only a few

:43:11.:43:14.

in Europe. She's a member of the legislative assembly in Northern

:43:15.:43:16.

Ireland, where the Chinese community is the largest ethnic minority

:43:17.:43:22.

group. She received a barrage of racist abuse online earlier this

:43:23.:43:26.

year, and that came up at Prime Minister's Questions when Nick Clegg

:43:27.:43:29.

was standing for David Cameron last month. -- standing in. I was deeply

:43:30.:43:39.

saddened and shocked to read about the incident of what happened to

:43:40.:43:42.

members of the Polish and Chinese community in her constituency and

:43:43.:43:45.

even more so, what has happened to her colleague, Anna Lo MLA, the

:43:46.:43:51.

first member of Chinese descent in any legislature in Europe, being

:43:52.:43:57.

subjected terrible abuse by bullies and racists. I rang her arguments go

:43:58.:44:01.

to express my own support what she's doing to stand up that terrible

:44:02.:44:09.

treatment. Anna Lo joins us now. Let's take this bit about, you are

:44:10.:44:15.

the only UK parliamentarian either in Westminster or in the devolved

:44:16.:44:18.

parliaments, from the Chinese community. Why do you think Chinese

:44:19.:44:29.

representation is so small? Yes, I think may the short history of

:44:30.:44:32.

Chinese people coming into the UK, when we have seen maybe Indian or

:44:33.:44:38.

Pakistani politicians coming forward, also the majority of

:44:39.:44:44.

Chinese people here came from Hong Kong, where there was little cortex.

:44:45.:44:51.

So they were not may be used to being in politics or being active in

:44:52.:44:57.

politics. Their priority coming into the UK is very much establishing

:44:58.:45:03.

themselves in businesses, rather than to come into Quebec life. But

:45:04.:45:08.

you never know, second and third generation. You have paid the way.

:45:09.:45:23.

The Chinese community in Britain has tended not to go into politics. It

:45:24.:45:27.

has been more likely to go into business or the professions or

:45:28.:45:32.

academia. In many ways, many years ago, the Jewish community also went

:45:33.:45:39.

that route to begin with as well. That is very much maybe the

:45:40.:45:44.

influence from the parents. Parents all went into businesses so they

:45:45.:45:48.

tend to gravitate towards accountancy and things like that.

:45:49.:45:55.

But, I think, it is important for the political parties to involve

:45:56.:46:00.

them as well. In Northern Ireland, we do not see many political parties

:46:01.:46:05.

going out deliberately to woo the potential ethnic minority

:46:06.:46:10.

communities to be participating in politics. Many would mention what

:46:11.:46:19.

they would do for ethnic minorities. They are kind of used to being

:46:20.:46:24.

sidelined. They do not feel they have a say in politics. It is

:46:25.:46:27.

important that they are involved. They are very much part and parcel

:46:28.:46:32.

now of our society and they have a lot to contribute. You have been

:46:33.:46:37.

saying, and some others have been saying, that in Northern Ireland,

:46:38.:46:42.

racism is taking over from sectarianism as a major problem.

:46:43.:46:47.

Explain what you mean and what happened to you. Well, I think, if

:46:48.:46:53.

you asked any sociologist, they would say to you sectarianism and

:46:54.:46:58.

racism are two sides of the same coin. I think if people are

:46:59.:47:04.

sectarian, they can very easily jump from one prejudice to another. You

:47:05.:47:11.

suffered one abuse yourself, didn't you? I have received very bad racist

:47:12.:47:18.

comments from making some comments as a politician about taking down

:47:19.:47:22.

the Union flag hanging on a lamp post. That was hung up really over a

:47:23.:47:29.

year ago and many of the flags now tattered. I think it was a very

:47:30.:47:35.

legitimate proposal. This is for bringing them down during the race,

:47:36.:47:49.

the bike race. Millions of viewers watching the race across the world.

:47:50.:47:53.

I'd also called for the paramilitary mural is displaying violence, for

:47:54.:48:01.

them to be painted over, to give a good image of Belfast, Northern

:48:02.:48:08.

Ireland. Some folks found a sense of my proposal and so they put up a lot

:48:09.:48:18.

of racist, really foul messages. I am sorry you have had to withdraw

:48:19.:48:23.

this. You describe yourself as an anti-colonial. That is

:48:24.:48:27.

understandable. You said the partition of Ireland was superficial

:48:28.:48:31.

and Ireland would be better placed economically notionally and

:48:32.:48:34.

politically. I guess if you say that its segment of the loyalist

:48:35.:48:38.

community will abuse you. -- a segment. I got some abuse from them.

:48:39.:48:47.

To be honest, it was a 35 minute interview I gave to the Irish News.

:48:48.:48:55.

My understanding of it, it was going to be a feature of my European

:48:56.:49:00.

election. I answer a lot of questions and that was one of the

:49:01.:49:06.

last questions put to me. Are you in favour of a united Ireland? I am in

:49:07.:49:15.

favour of the principle of consent. What I said was, I would like to see

:49:16.:49:19.

a united Ireland. If the conditions are right, if it is the wish of the

:49:20.:49:23.

majority of the people of Northern Ireland. I do not see anything wrong

:49:24.:49:30.

with that. Thank you for joining us today, life from Belfast. Now we, at

:49:31.:49:33.

the Daily Politics, are used to following minor political spats. In

:49:34.:49:36.

fact, it is our life-blood. But who would have guessed that when David

:49:37.:49:40.

Cameron told staff at John Lewis yesterday he shopped at Waitrose

:49:41.:49:43.

he'd end up being accused of being stuck-up and out of touch. Who would

:49:44.:49:51.

have thought that? It seems Mr Cameron's mistake, if indeed it was

:49:52.:49:54.

a mistake, was to suggest that Waitrose customers were more

:49:55.:49:57.

talkative, more engaged, than the customers of other supermarkets.

:49:58.:50:00.

Labour said it was a bizarre and empty-headed intervention. I think

:50:01.:50:07.

that is a bizarre and heavy headed response. Nick Clegg was asked where

:50:08.:50:10.

he shopped. He said he goes to them all. He is a Lib Dem, obviously.

:50:11.:50:16.

Where Ed Miliband shops is as yet unknown. We have teams of people

:50:17.:50:21.

trying to find out. Well, politicians aren't usually shy of

:50:22.:50:24.

being seen out connecting with the shoppers. Let's take a look. Next

:50:25.:50:32.

time you are at the checkout, supermarket sweep.

:50:33.:50:51.

# Will you dance with me? Take a chance with me. Do it one more time.

:50:52.:51:04.

Will you dance with me? Do it one more time with the music. Take a

:51:05.:51:10.

chance with me. Do it one more time.

:51:11.:51:19.

# Check it out, check it out, check it out. #

:51:20.:51:28.

Ed Miliband has been spotted, I am told, in a farmers market in

:51:29.:51:40.

Hampstead. There is a surprise. Joining me now to talk about the

:51:41.:51:43.

politics of supermarkets is psychotherapist Lucy Beresford. What

:51:44.:51:50.

can you tell us? What are you make of David Cameron saying Waitrose

:51:51.:51:54.

customers are more talkative? We have to remember the audience he was

:51:55.:51:58.

speaking to. He was speaking in a John Lewis environment. They are in

:51:59.:52:04.

a partnership together. There is a sense in which he could have been

:52:05.:52:08.

preaching to the converted. Not a particularly brave statement in that

:52:09.:52:12.

environment. Wouldn't you say, for me, if you told me the customers of

:52:13.:52:17.

a particular supermarket were more talkative, I would make sure I would

:52:18.:52:22.

not go? You would not want to be hassled. You would want to be

:52:23.:52:30.

focused on your trolley. The problem is AI am very methodical. -- the

:52:31.:52:41.

problem is... I am very methodical. Politicians feel obliged to go to

:52:42.:52:44.

the supermarket. They are probably the only meant in that environment

:52:45.:52:48.

who do go to the supermarket because the media expects them to play that

:52:49.:52:54.

role. Do you think going to the food hall at Harrods counts? I am not

:52:55.:53:00.

talking about myself. I thought he would have been a forged and Mason

:53:01.:53:12.

man. What do you make of this? -- Fortnum and Mason. Silently he knows

:53:13.:53:19.

he has this problem of being out of touch. I go to ASDA. A lot of men do

:53:20.:53:31.

go shopping. You have got it wrong. Like you, up and down, you know

:53:32.:53:35.

where everything is. Makes you do not miss things. The difficulties,

:53:36.:53:44.

going back to our conversation with raking down the population into

:53:45.:53:48.

groups, what he seemed to be saying is, you get a more kind of

:53:49.:53:53.

civilised, chatty bunch of people in Waitrose. No kidding! It did sound a

:53:54.:54:02.

bit like a cluster mark. He may also be more relaxed when he is in that

:54:03.:54:06.

environment, which makes him appear more approachable. In Budgens, he

:54:07.:54:12.

could be more shifty. He may not expect to be recognised. Is he being

:54:13.:54:20.

snooty? I do not think that was his intention. He earned a good whack. I

:54:21.:54:26.

go to ASDA because it is better value. It is not just the

:54:27.:54:34.

well-heeled who are shopping in Waitrose and M food. They were the

:54:35.:54:36.

stores that did much better over Christmas. Tesco did much worse.

:54:37.:54:44.

People are perhaps aspiring to having better quality food and

:54:45.:54:49.

better engaged experiences. We have to remember it is the employees of

:54:50.:54:55.

Waitrose, because they are part of a partnership, similarly engaged. What

:54:56.:55:01.

you make about Nick Clegg saying he shops at every supermarket? I have

:55:02.:55:08.

shopped at ASDA, Sainsbury's, Tesco. You have not put your finger on Ed

:55:09.:55:16.

Miliband in the farmers market. I go to Tesco, where a lot of my target

:55:17.:55:21.

voters go. Nobody is going to be Co-op. That is what we can see. I go

:55:22.:55:28.

there sometimes. I have a membership card. We did not get it last year,

:55:29.:55:42.

it was suspended. I suspect Nick Clegg is going around the shops

:55:43.:55:45.

because things are not looking too good. Now, if you are anything like

:55:46.:55:50.

me, by this stage in the week your attention span is pretty short. I

:55:51.:55:54.

wonder where to have lunch today? Anyway, for all of you who feel the

:55:55.:55:58.

same here's Alex Forsyth with our digest of all the big political

:55:59.:56:01.

stories of the week in just 60 seconds. The Defence Secretary

:56:02.:56:06.

unequivocally denied being the source of a storm on the possible

:56:07.:56:12.

currency union with an independent Scotland. I do not think so. The

:56:13.:56:20.

search for the leak goes on. There were claims the Royal Mail sale left

:56:21.:56:30.

people short-changed. Not so much the wolf of Wall Street, more the

:56:31.:56:36.

ducks of Downing Street. The Prime Minister hit back saying, I will

:56:37.:56:41.

take advice from everyone but not the two Muppets who advise the

:56:42.:56:48.

transfer of setting the goal. Also Nick against Nigel. The UKIP leader

:56:49.:56:52.

was probably soon smoking a calming fag. There were fireworks from Len

:56:53.:57:02.

McCluskey, who warned they could break links with Labour if the party

:57:03.:57:10.

loses the next election. We finished on Len McCluskey. He spoke at the

:57:11.:57:17.

press gallery for lunch. You were there. What was it like? I asked,

:57:18.:57:23.

would you back another party? I did not expect an honest answer. I think

:57:24.:57:29.

it was a serious threat. Very different from his position at the

:57:30.:57:33.

special conference. He said, this is our party, we are going nowhere. If

:57:34.:57:38.

Labour lose, unions are being pushed further and further out. Instead of

:57:39.:57:43.

being pushed out, let's walk out. Labour losing is a little less

:57:44.:57:48.

likely this week than it was a week ago. The budget bounce that Mr

:57:49.:57:52.

Osborne got seems to have petered out. Fire immediate responses to

:57:53.:58:03.

budgets do tend dissipate. -- immediate responses to budgets. Will

:58:04.:58:09.

this be a decider? Not so much as some commentators were saying last

:58:10.:58:15.

week. The problems by Mr McCluskey, there is no party on the left that

:58:16.:58:27.

will overtake Labour. Labour is the only game in town. If you have

:58:28.:58:32.

electoral reform, you might have otherwise. You are wasting your

:58:33.:58:35.

money and you will damage Labour. That's all for today. Thanks to our

:58:36.:58:38.

guests. The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. I'll

:58:39.:58:42.

be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday Politics when I'll be

:58:43.:58:46.

joined by Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint. We will be speaking

:58:47.:58:52.

about the prospects of the Labour Party. I hope you can join me.

:58:53.:58:55.

Bye-bye.

:58:56.:58:58.

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