11/04/2014 Daily Politics

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. The former Deputy

Speaker of the Commons, Nigel Evans, is cleared of all charges of sexual

assault. So should he have been prosecuted in the first place? Mr

Evans was cleared by a jury yesterday of nine counts, including

one of rape. It's yet another high profile case where the prosecution

case has collapsed. Is the Crown Prosecution Service fit for purpose?

After the last 11 months nothing will be the same again.

After the resignation of his Culture Secretary, David Cameron probably

didn't want this to be the week to launch an election campaign. So will

it damage the Tories in the upcoming European and Local elections?

Anti-EU parties are on the rise across Europe. We report from the

Netherlands on why voters are turning against the European

project. And, he's a former banker and

Treasury minister, but does he know anything about the arts? Just how

cultural do you have to be to be the Culture Secretary? All that in the

next hour. With us for the first half of the

programme is the venerable Trevor Kavanagh, who writes for the Sun,

and the journalist and broadcaster Miranda Green,. -- Green. Welcome to

you both. The Director of Public Prosecutions has defended the

decision to prosecute the Conservative MP Nigel Evans over a

string of sex offence allegations. Mr Evans was cleared on all nine

counts yesterday - including one of rape - by a jury at Preston Crown

Court. Numerous MPs have criticised the decision to bring charges in the

first place, and a former Director of Public Prosecutions, Ken

MacDonald, says prosecutors risk "losing perspective" by going "on a

mission" to pursue prominent figures. Well, the current Director

of Public Prosecutions, Alison Saunders, had this to say this

morning. Our mission is to prosecute cases fairly, and in accordance with

the code for crown prosecutors and we do that no matter who the alleged

defendant is, or who the victim is. We need to make sure that we do keep

cool heads and look at the evidence objectively, which is what we do. He

said she shouldn't shy away from taking difficult case, I think that

is important that we don't take just cases that, where there is a

certainty of conviction because we would be failing victims and failing

in our duty to see justice is done. You have to remember there are

victims who complained to the place which started the investigation. We

have to be careful about some of the asummerions we make. Often victims

don't see themselves as victim, and they may not see themselves as

victims for all sorts of reason, such as the power of the allegeded

of fender, the fact they are who only people who have shown them

supposed love or affection, so we have to be careful about those

assumptions. Joining me Conservative Bob Stewart, a friend of Nigel

Evans. He testified on his behalf in the trial. Welcome to the daily

politics, should this case have been brought? No Why? Because the

evidence clearly wasn't enough for a prosecution. That was relatively

clear when the witnesses went into the box and said I didn't really

feel I was a victim. I didn't feel this was right. You know, I have

known Nigel for a long time, Andrew, 20 years since I was in the army,

and the one thing about him, he is no bully. He maybe silly at times

but he is no bully. So why do you think it was brought? I don't know.

I tell you this, what was, what happened. You have Nigel Evans

career in bit, his wellbeing destroyed, his position as Deputy

Speaker gone, and frankly, he told me last night when I spoke to him,

he is concern head is will have to pay a huge amount of money in fees

to lawyers, when he has been found not guilty, that is wrong. The

lawyers always make money. I shouldn't make money out of Nigel.

He is innocent. He didn't want to go to court and he has had his life

ruined. It is more than 100,000. How can you compensate a man who has

lost his career? Can it be put back on the rails again Yes. He has told

me that he wants to, come back, get reestablished again, prove he is as

good an MP as has been and stand well in the House. Everyone in the

House of Commons wants him to come back and be reinstituted as quickly

as possible. Then he can reestablish himself. He is not a rich man, I

have been to his house. It is like a miner's cottagement to be asked to

pay this money. If that is correct it is wrong. We have to sort that.

Will he run again in the 2015 election? I dam well hope so, I hope

the people in Ribble Valley feel that way because he has been through

the mill. I want to talk about this Code of Conduct, let me go to the

BBC in Salford, Kim Harrison is a lawyer from Slater and Gordon. This

case should never have been brought, should it? It collapsed. Just to

clarify, Slater and Gordon acts in civil compensation for abuse victim,

this is an unusual case, and while we weren't involved in this case and

I can't comment on the specific circumstances, I do know from

reading the coverage that a number of the alleged victims have

themselves expressed surprise about why the case was brought, but I

think that we need to look at this in perspective. These celebrity

cases are a small proportion of the number of sexual assault and rape

and abuse case, which happen each year, and we don't... I understand

this but this is about a man whose life has been ruined, even though he

has won. The point I put to you is this should never have been brought?

As I say, it wasn't, it wasn't anything to do with us, or Slater

and Gordon. I am not accusing you, I am asking for you opinion. Let me

put this. Only two of the alleged victims had complained to the

police. The police then went on a trawl for the other ones, only two

volunteered. One of the alleged victims said he never wanted a

prosecution. Another claimed he was traumatised. But stayed friends with

Nigel Evans, and describes him as an all round good egg. Another admitted

he embellished his account for dramatic effect. I say to you, this

case should never have been brought. I think the police and the CPS have

a really really difficult job in these sorts of cases, and there have

been convictions in celebrity case, look at the Stuart Haul convictions

and the role of the CPS and the police isn't to decide whether

somebody is guilty. That is the role of the jury, that is what the jury

have done in this case. If anything it shows that the criminal justice

system in this country is functioning well, if the jury have

listen toed the evidence, and reached their verdict, but if you

had a situation where every case that was brought that resulted in

the conviction, that would surely say something about the criminal

justice system as well. I can assure you it is not working well for never

this morning, even though he has won. My point to you, why would the

Crown Prosecution Service proceed with a case in which the police had

to trawl for victims in the first place and even when it found them,

some said they didn't think it should go to court. Why would you do

that unless you were out for a celebrity scalp? Well I think you

would have to ask the CPS that. I think the real problem is not false

claims but low reporting rates for rape and sexual abuse cases, that is

the real problem, and victims who are scared to come forward because

they are scared they are not going to be believed. Do you have no

sympathy for Nigel Evans this morning? Sorry? Do you have no

sympathy for him? Of course I have great sympathy for Nigel Evans. The

system you are defending has done this to him We need to look at this

in the context of the overall scale of this problem, where the vast

majority of people who are abused are not abused by celebrities or

people in the public eye, they are abused in their own homes, these are

the people that are lost and forgotten and the people we need to

be concentrating on. So why don't the authorities concentrate on them,

instead of going for celebrity scalps where the case is weak? There

were clearly issues in this case which prosecutors need to learn from

and I am sure as we speak, that people are looking at what happened,

and learning those lessons but you know, my job here isn't to sit up

here defending whether or not Nigel Evans should be prosecuted, but we

stand... But you have. No I haven't. I I have said there is a bigger

problem in society, with low reporting rates of abuse victim,

because people are scared that they are not going to be believed. What

we have to be very careful of is because we have had a couple of

cases where people have been acquitted, that we don't roll back

all of the good work that has been done over the past couple of years

with people feeling more confident at coming forward to report abuse,

and the police and the CPS taking it serious -- seriously, the real issue

is protecting the victim, the vast majority of victims whose cases

never come to court. I understand that, nobody could argue with that,

but that wasn't what I was asking you about. Any way, thank you for

joining us. This is the legal profession closing ranks. I think

that the Crown Prosecution Service and indeed the police have questions

to answer on this and I think you have raised a few this morning

already. Kim was saying there that this is just a small number of the

cases that have been raised and brought to court, but in fact they

represent a vast expenditure of resources and manpower, and as, as

Mr Evans's lawyer said last night, the CP S through everything at this

case. -- threw everything at this case. This is indicative of the way

they are operating. The Elveden case which is in a way similar has more

police on it than any other previous criminal inquiry in history and that

includes murder inquiries, now I it seems to me ?100 million being spent

on one case or in this case 100,000 in one lawyer's case is totally

disproportionate and it is the question of proportion here that is

important. It is not whether or not prosecutions should take place, it

is a question of proportion and degree. Kim was right to argue you

want people to come forward, and there are people sometimes are

deterred from coming forward. That is not the issue in this case. It

seems the issue in this case is that the police and the Crown Prosecution

Service precede proceeded on what they had from the victims, was

flimsy. Exactly so and they persuaded people to testify who said

they did not stheemss as victims, now I think that Kim had interesting

things to say, because I am very worried that in bringing these cases

that fail, the CPS is doing victims of very serious sexual assault and

rapes a disservice, what you are saying today is a massive backlash

because of this care, and also because of the Coronation Street

case, which think was a couple of months ago now, and there is already

a terrible set of rape myths which result in juries acquitting, when

they should convict. This sort of case will encourage the attitude

that people are been ex ashusly put on trial. You think the kind of

cases which Kim was talking about, what has happened to Nigel Evans

doesn't help that. It doesn't help it a at all. Listening to a talk

radio discussion last night there were hundreds queueing up to say we

must have anonymity for rape accused, you know, which is

something that resurfaces every year, which is terrible was a you

need victims to come forward you don't need the police and the CPS

they are victims when they don't feel to be so. Look that the wider

problem of Westminster culture, so bad, that your parties had to

release a voluntary Code of Conduct for MP, outlining suitable

behaviour. What do you think of that? I haven't read it. I will be

very worried. -- MPs. A voluntary Code of Conduct. I don't see what is

going to be said in it, but I do know that people should know how to

behave decently any way. If you have a MP you should know any way. It is

meant to combat bar, older men, with young researcher, mail and female --

male and female behaviour. You have had to have a Code of Conduct. You

can't behave yourselves without a Code of Conduct. You are looking at

me! When I said you, I meant you collectively. I will try my best to

behave. In the best... You have seen this behaviour? I don't see it as

bad as that. No, I mean, frankly I just don't see that. Some people act

out of line, in any profession. I guess that is true in most places. I

really don't see that MPs are really, they are not drunk, people

come up to them. Sometimes they are drunk! If they are others say away

know, sometimes they don't get... Sometimes they get hit. Yes, so far

no-one has hit me Andrew. I wouldn't be surprised. They wouldn't try you.

I am glad to hear that, I really don't see much of it. And frankly, I

just hope that this will get behind, Nigel Evans will come back, and

please the public, belief that the vast majority of Members of

Parliament are trying to do their very best, me, I feel I am back in

uniform, serving my country and all MPs think that. Now it's time for

our daily quiz and today it's about the new Culture Secretary Sajid

Javid. He's only been in the job for a few days but already some critics

are predictably asking if the former banker is cultured enough for the

job. Well, we don't know much about his tastes - although he's a regular

on this show so they must be pretty good, but we do know he's a fan of

one popular science fiction programme. So what is it? Is it: a)

Doctor Who, b) Blake's seven, c) Star Trek, or d) red Dwarf? And a

bit later in the show Miranda and Trevor will give us the correct

answer. Yesterday the Conservative Party launched it's European

election campaign and here is the shiny manifesto in all its glory.

And, if that momentous event passed you by, well, it's no wonder really,

as most of Westminster was talking about the Nigel Evans case and the

fallout from the resignation of Maria Miller. Not exactly the ideal

week to launch an election campaign! Anyway, as well as the European

elections, there are also local elections taking place on the 22nd

of May. So what's at stake? In England there'll be elections in 129

councils, as well as in all 32 London Boroughs, plus contests for

directly elected mayors in Watford and four London boroughs: Hackney,

Lewisham, Newham and Tower Hamlets. There are no local elections in

Wales or Scotland but there will be in Northern Ireland as their 26

councils begin to merge into 11 super councils. All in all, that's

around 4,180 seats - just under half of which are in London. But there

will be UK wide elections for seats in the European Parliament with 73

seats up for grabs via a closed party list system except in Northern

Ireland where it's a Single Transferable Vote. STV. It used to

be a television station in Scotland. The latest TNS European election

poll shows Labour and UKIP neck and neck with the Conservatives trailing

third. They'll be hoping to make up some ground over the next few weeks.

Here's what the Prime Minister had to say at yesterday's launch of the

Conservative manifesto. We are the only party with a clear plan.

Renegotiate, get the best deal for Great Britain and put the decision

to the British people. For the next six weeks, let's head the street and

at every rally, every meeting, let take out this message. Labour and

the Liberal Democrats will not give you a say on Europe. UKIP cannot

Joining us now from Glasgow is Professor John Curtice from

Strathclyde University who is the man we turn to when elections come

into view. Change a thing at all. It is only the Conservatives who can

make real change in Europe and only the Conservatives will give you the

say in a referendum. That was the Prime Minister. I would suggest you

that neither the Maria Miller business or the Nigel Evans is Ms

will have any effect on the elections? I think that is probably

broadly correct. My only caveat would be that given one of the

arguments from Nigel Farage is to say there will be a plague on all

your houses. The publicity had given him ammunition but I do not think it

would be an important issue. I think what one needs to realise is that

these elections, all three Westminster parties will simply be

looking to see how well UKIP do. The Labour Party will be desperate to

remain ahead of UKIP in the UK wide vote. Most surveys put them narrowly

ahead. The Conservatives will be wanting to minimise the damage from

UKIP that there is no doubt, if you look at the surveys, the people who

are switching to UKIP are the ones who disproportionately vote for

Conservatives. The Liberal Democrats are asking, how far behind will we

be in fourth place? The surveys on how you vote in the European

elections are very different to the surveys that tell us the sake of the

parties. Yes, the truth is that that has been par for the course for

elections for some time. Voters are more willing to vote for smaller

parties, not just UKIP, but also the Green Party. Partly because they do

not think it matters so much but partly because we have a system of

proportional representation. UKIP, on average, in the surveys, are

running at 28%. In surveys in Westminster, they are running at

14%. Undoubtably, people will vote Conservatives in a Westminster

election but will about UKIP later on. The other thing that helps UKIP

is that UKIP voters tend to be strongly motivated and this will

undoubtedly be a low turnout election, and that turns out well

for UKIP. In the USA, for a long time, they have had this to men of

splitting the ticket. You may vote Democrat, or the Mayor, or you could

vote Republican. Given that we have the European elections and local

elections on the same day, is it likely that people will split the

ticket, and vote in a particular way for European elections but vote more

like the USA for the local elections? Yes, we anticipate that

UKIP would do better in the European elections than local elections but

what happened in the last European elections in 2009, when they were on

the same day as County Council elections, the evidence suggested

that it does help UKIP to do better in local elections. We should bear

in mind that in the local elections last year, UKIP did better than

Westminster intentions, 22 in the nationwide poll. We may find UKIP

doing well in the local elections, with one caveat. These local

elections are primarily in rural rather than urban Britain. London is

the focus, and London is more multicultural and diverse, and is

less and of UKIP than much of Britain outside of the capital. --

less and enamel. If UKIP does well. --, does it matter? What is the

matter? I think they will come first and it is disgraceful that Labour is

anywhere near coming second stop I think the live cams will be

effectively wiped out. I think that has an effect not just on the local

elections but on the mood of the public generally. For a while now,

people have been prepared to vote quite differently in European

elections compared to how they wrote in Westminster elections. I think

that changed after the two debates when Nigel Farage emerged as

something as a figurehead for his voters. He is now formally

entrenched as the voice against the establishment, the metropolitan

elite, and I think that will continue over the next few months,

up to the next election. He says you would be wiped out? I hope not. I

think he has put the cat among the pigeons. They will hope that is not

the case but it is true that with the poll rating the way it is and

the proportional representation system for the European elections,

the Lib Dem 's do not have their usual advantages where the incumbent

is well liked. You have this system where according to the proportion of

the vote, you only get one or two. It is a dangerous system. People are

talking about it and that would be bad, not least because you lose a

number of spokespeople. With the Lib Dems, you lose a number of females

who are thin on the ground, but I do not agree with Trevor's take that

European elections are very important. There is not that much at

stake and traditionally they are used for people to make a massive

protest against established parties. Look at the Green Party and the

success they have. It may have no affect the am I right in thinking

that if you look at the longer trend in the state of the parties in the

polls over the last year, there has been a gradual but steady narrowing

of Labour's lead over the Conservatives? I would put it

differently. Labour's vote share fell over the summer of 2013, and

despite its campaign on the cost of living, that has failed to restore

the Labour Party back to the 40% plus Mark. The Conservatives are

still running at the 33% that they have been running for the last three

years, and so far, although the voters are somewhat more optimistic

about the economy, that is proving to be a difficult recovery as far as

the Conservatives are concerned. Even if the Lib Dems do as badly as

the opinion polls suggest they will do in the European elections, they

should pick up three or four seats. 9% is what the opinion polls are

pointing towards. They should still pick up some seeds. Beware of the

Liberal Democrats opus billing -- over spilling. We will be aware.

Thank you, John. For more on the elections, join me this Sunday for

Sunday Politics at 2:30pm, just after the London Marathon. We will

host a debate on Europe between the four main parties. Normally at

around this time we'd all be speculating about when the Prime

Minister is going to announce the date of the next general election.

But all that fun's been taken away because it's fixed in law. It'll be

on May the 7th next year. But have the great British public already

made up their minds about which way to vote? Only one man has the balls

to find out. We've got the balls, we've got the

box, so let's find out when it comes to the 20 15th general election, our

people fixed or floaters who are yet to decide? When will you decide?

Possibly not until the final month. It is all play for? Yes, it is. When

will you decide, how will you make the decision? Five minutes before on

the way to the polling station. Would you like to vote in our

survey? Do you follow the political news as it happens? Not as it

happens but I feel like I am aware. If you are not going to decide

nearer the election, does that mean politics is a bit of a waste of

time? No, not at all. I am more interested in local issues. I am

fixed. Would it take something major to change your mind? Yes, it

worked. Not John Major, but Major Major! Do you know when the next

general election is? It is in May 2015. I had not heard about it. So,

you are sort of fixed and sort of floaters? Yes, we have to float to

make maximum impact. Do you feel the political parties are reaching out

to you to win your vote? No. This is a productive way of looking at all

of the stop have you ever seen the Daily Politics programme? No, I have

not. This week, we had the Maria Miller resignation. Do events like

that make difference to you? Yes, they. Will David Cameron be still

around is when he is old enough to vote? I doubt it. Do you know who

any of those people are? Boris Johnson! Yes! Do you feel the

political parties are trying to win you over? Yes, there was a lot of

talk but I know where my vote is going. Which political party is

winning over owners of small dogs? The Conservative party and maybe the

Lib Dems. Guys, do you want to park up and do a survey? I am fixed, but

it has been the same for years, I have not really changed my mind and

I do not know what would change my mind. I have no idea. What would win

you over as my have you decided who to vote for or are you floating?

Floater is not a nice term. Of our many people who are undecided which

is great because otherwise we may as well pack up and come home and come

back next May. Give me your predictions. What will your results

be? The Conservatives should win. The

voteless recovery, I don't think that is going to continue. We will

see the economy beginning to become the big issue, if they play it

right, instead of bungling it, I think they could easily win the next

election. By win, what to you mean, overall party or majority. It might

be a small majority. They would have to increase their share of the vote.

Who was the last Prime Minister to do that? Antony Eden? But the thing

is... 1955. The The recovery will be deeper and wide wider than before.

That is a career answer, what is your answer? I think the

Conservatives will win. Because the Labour advantage in the polls at the

moment is nothing like as wide as it needs to be. As you get near a

general election the opposition party it narrows and narrows because

of all the things the incumbent party can say, I think there will be

the Conservatives at the largest party, but I think there will be a

coalition, the question is is it a coalition between the Tory party and

the Liberal Democrats again, or is it a coalition between two sides of

the Tory party. Constantly at war as they were towards the ends of John

Major's. So when you say win you mean the largest party. If there is

a narrow majority you will see a coalition. It will be two sorts of

Tories in coalition. Will there be enough Liberal Democrats round to

contribute to a coalition? I think there will. The polling is

interesting on this, because although the Liberal Democrat

overall rating is truly horrendous, you know, being in single figures,

in their individual constituencies they are so good at clinging on.

Easterly showed that in the by-election. The satisfaction rate

for for you to like your MP it is positive. That would mean they are

vulnerable where there isn't an incumbent. You would hope there is a

legacy, because there are a lot of women standing. We might see some

women in the Liberal Democrats. That would be nice. It would be a change.

Certainly would. Time to get the answer to our quiz. The question was

what science fiction show is new Culture Secretary Sajid Javid a fan

of? Doctor Who? Blakes Seven? Star Trek? Or Red Dwarf? What is the

correct answer. I would go for Blakes Seven. I think it is Star

Trek. Miranda is right. It is Star Trek. Does it matter that we are not

able to establish this Culture Secretary has any interest in

culture. I don't think he has. There isn't any evidence. We must assume

there is precious little. Does it matter? Does the department matter?

Do we need a Department of Culture, Media and Sport? I think no. Of

course the coalition doesn't low -- allow this to happen. When Maria

Miller fell on her sword was that not the time to take down the

department? In the long-term it would be nicer to see fewer

department, but I think this should stay. How would you mount an

Olympics without a DCMS? Creative industries are important for the

economy, big export, and how would you mount an Olympics if you didn't

have someone like Tessa Jowell... There will be other opportunity,

cultural and sporting. We need to leave it there. Coming up in a

moment is a regular look at what is going on in European politics. Now

it is time to say goodbye to my two guests of the day. So, for the next

half hour we will be focussing on Europe. We will discuss the rise of

the anti-EU vote, across Europe, and the groupings on the European

Parliament. First though, here is our guide to the latest from Europe

in 60 seconds. Greece jumped back into the global

markets wits first sale of long-term Government bonds since the economy

almost collapsed four years ago. The sale was welcome news ahead of a

visit from Angela Merkel. Tempers playered in the Ukraine Parliament.

Following a heated debate about pro Russian activists using Government

buildings in several Ukrainian cities.

-- playered. Spanish MPs voted against Catalonia's bid for an

Independence Referendum in a decision that is likely to increase

the divide between both sides. Listed companies across the EU must

get shareholder approval on pay for top executives. Under a draft law.

We past the vote... Who says politicians the aren't down with the

kids. Members of the European Parliament have been in a rap battle

to engage young voters. And with us for the next 30 minutes

I have been joined by Martin Callanan, the MEP for the

Conservatives and Catherine Stihler MEP for Labour. Let us look at one

of the stories in more detail. Greece. It managed to get its bond

issue away. It is back in the bond markets. I would suggest this is

party -- partly because in the bond market there is a search for

a-year-old and Greece is offering more than the Germans or the British

or the Americans and the country is still mired in stagnation. I think

you are right. Think I that things are difficult in Greece. This is to

be becomed but it is a fragile state of affair, we all want to see things

recovering in Greece because of the measures imposed on the Greek people

and the sacrifices they have made. It is shocking, when you talk to

Greek colleagues, it is a really really dire situation. However, this

fragile news, is to be welcomed but it is a long way to go. Is there a

concern in the European Parliament about what are called the club meed

countries in general, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Cyprus, probably

Italy. Slovenia That they are on the verge of apse deflationary trap? We

saw that prices in Spain are falling, industrial production,

prices at the gate, in Greece, Cyprus, Portugal, falling. I think

the iron anyof the euro is that it was supposed to cement solidarity,

it is doing the opposite. It is driving northern Europe away from

southern Europe. All those countries are diverging, Greece is by no means

out of the woods yet. They have completely unsustainable levels of

debt and somebody will have to pay that, and I think it is hugely

concerning, because there is no obvious solution in sight, because

the competitiveness of northern around southern Europe are

different. You talked about the sacrifices Greek people have made

and they have made more than anyone else in Europe. Yet, as a result

this deflationary trend which Magifies the level of their public

debt, that is rising, they have raised the tax, they have cut public

spend, they have made people unemployed. Their debt has ridden

from 130% to 170 per % of GDP. We should acknowledge the fact it has

been a right-wing agenda that has been imposed on the Greek people

would boy have been different if there had been a different political

flavour in power. If you look... I think you have to accept as well,

Martin, that the euro is reforming, it is changing, the lessons are

being learned. This week we will vote on the banking union and other

issues, but I think also you can't escape from the fact that the

austere measures imposed on the Greek people have been because of

the politics the at play. It hasn't brought the debt down. No, it is

going up. Austerity means paying your way, the Labour Party might

want to argue you can keep on spending and spending without

raising the money. That is no what we are saying. In France they were

elected on an end to austerity. Food banks are on the rise in many tri.

The European elections are the first than European poll since the

European crisis that brought the currency union to the brink of

collapse. It has cost many their job. The fall out has led to a

growing frustration with the European project. Right wing parties

the like the Front Nationale in France and Geert Wilders's Freedom

Party in the Netherland are expected to do well, stranding on an anti-EU

platform. Here is our Ben Wright reporting.

The European dream has gone sour, for some. Belgian dock workers

joined other trade unionist at this protest in Brussels last week. Most

rallied peacefully for the EU to work better. A few picked a fight

with police. The talk here in Brussels is of a European Union in

trouble. Austerity, economic crisis and high unemployment in several

countries is spawning disillusionment with the whole

European project. In northern Europe it is the anti-EU right who are

doing well, in southern Europe it was the anti-austerity left who Ron

the rise. When MEPs come back after the May elections there will be many

who have won their seats because of their opposition to Brussels, even

in countries that are pro European. -- who are on the rise. Tolerant,

liberal and green, the Netherlands of pop lab cleesh pedals on,s the it

was one of the founding countries of what is the European Union. Half an

hour from Amsterdam has emerged. At the last European elections the

Freedom Party won half the vote in a town of 20,000. That, the party of

Geert Wilders. The hard right populist who rails against Muslims

and the EU. It won four MEPs and topped the poll in the Netherlands,

some will back him again The Freedom Party? Yes, they are popular. It is

good. Why? For free country. It is terrible. These people come to

Holland to take the job from Dutch Palace res. It is not good. This

place isn't buzzing with euro election fever. Several people have

spoken to don't know there is a pom and many have no interest at all in

voting. Something common across the Continent. What is surprising that

this pretty little town with its tourists and tea shops is somewhere

where the far right have done well in the past.

Look round, you don't see any black people over here. It is... Geert

Wilders at a rally last month. When the crowd calls for fewer Moroccans

this is what he said. The police received hundreds of complaints he

was invite -- inciting racial hatred. This man was a member of the

Freedom Party before he was thrown out in 2010. He says this time the

party leader has gone too far The way he said about the Moroccan

community is racism. He will go to jail. He has to go to jail for it.

It is too far. Let me put it in English. Do you want less Welsh

people? Do you want less Scottish people. Less people from York? No,

it is not possible. In France Jean-Marie Le Pen has tried to

rebrand -- Marine Le Pen has tried to rebrand the National Front.

Willeders has suggested a pact of far right parties but their support

could be fragile. Some of them are more radical right

than UKIP. UKIP is not a racist party. Nigel Farage is careful to

say that. He is anti-open borders, this is a thing parties in scanned

neighia are saying, they are likely to top the polls in Denmark, they

say we are not racist, we are anti-European and we want less done

in Brussels. UKIP said it would never join the likes of Le Pen and

Willeders but here in the Hague the centrist coalition knows they must

do more to rebuild trust in Brussels. When you look at the next

European Commission, they should have a limited agenda, strengthening

the single market. Making trade agreements and really making work,

so transferring powers from Brussels to the member state, that is the

only way to preserve Europe for the future.

The far right in the Netherlands may struggle to beat its success at the

last European elections but Geert Wilders could find himself in

Brussels joining other MEPs whose hostility to the EU has hit home

with voters. Ben right reporting from the

Netherlands. Another country where the far right is riding high is

France where Marine Le Pen's Front Nationale made significant gains.

They took on over there, largely at the ex owned of Francois Hollande's

Socialist Party. We are joined by Emmanuel Godin a heck return at

Portsmouth university. Would it be fair to say that this phenomenon of

going outside the mainstream, the National Front in Europe is the most

successful case? Yes, it is one of the most successful parties in

Europe and it is doing particularly well at the moment. It has also

worked a lot on its own image and strategy and that accounts for its

success at the moment. If you look at some of the places it did well,

former industrial towns in the north, it did well in Marseille, one

of the biggest districts, what is striking is that they are all,

historically, the old readouts of the Communist Party. Is it the same

people? Yes, that is right. For a long time, a lot of people thought

the National Front would do well but what we are witnessing is a

substantial shift from traditionalist and socialist voters

towards the National Front. When we described the National Front in this

country, we call it the far right, but when you look at the economic

policies, in this country, they look like the kind of things Tony Benn

used to stand for. Protectionism, anti-euro... It is quite clear. The

National Front has distanced itself from its old policies and does not

adopt a right or left stance at all. The policy put forward by the

National Front is more of a left recipe. In the local elections in

France, there were thousands of municipalities up for the vote, and

the National Front only confronted about 560. This time, in the

European elections, they have to fight nationwide. What would be a

good vote for them? -- a good result for them? If they get about 20, that

would be a good result. Usually, the National Front 's does very well if

there is a strong leader. People vote for Marine Le Pen rather than

the part V, but -- rather than the party, but it can do well without a

recognisable leader. You have places where the candidate was fairly

unknown and it shows that people tend to vote more for the National

Front than whoever is leading it. Will be centre-right parties come

first? Well, this is the big debate. The last result showed that

the Conservative party in France might just come first. They are at

22%. The Socialist party is at 20%. Let me bring my guest in. One of the

consequences of this rise parties outside of the mainstream, mainly on

the right, is that your party is likely to come third in the

elections. Well, we will have to see in elections and there was a long

way to go in the campaign. You are a long way behind in the votes. Yes,

if you believe the polls. There will be a low turnout and it is up to us

to try and enthuse the rotors to get out and vote. -- voters. You should

be romping home in the European elections but, actually, you have a

battle on your hands to beat UKIP. We have to go and fight for every

single vote. Obviously, in Scotland and other parts England and Wales,

where UKIP is threatening, we are trying to make sure we get as many

votes against Labour so we can fight against the Nationalists. We think

it is about the UK being part of the European Union, not about whether

Scotland should be part of the UK! At a time when unemployment in the

Eurozone is 12%, and youth unemployment is over 20%, and in

some countries it is as high as 60%, Conor Mizar barely growing, welfare

is being cut, poverty is growing... -- unemployment is growing. Though

our simple answers to questions. They are antiestablishment and there

is this perfect storm of coming together. You are the establishment.

When it comes to forming political groups, these people cannot work

together. My political party has a which covers 28 countries. That may

be true but that is not what I asked. Why has the left... We now

see what the fallout is from the crisis of capitalism but why has the

left not capitalised on that? Why is it the rights or the far right

question my I think you are generalising. The BNP are nowhere.

Yes, but UKIP. What we see is that a Socialist group could be the largest

group in a European Parliament. Why has the left done well? In the

European Parliament elections, if we get one more MEP, we then get that

chance to form the presidency of the European Commission. The National

Front are not a right party. They are highly welfare spending, more

socialism, with a nationalist hinge. -- tinge. The French National Front

are no more conservative than the Conservative party. Let me go back

to my guess. -- guest. I guess it is not surprising when you look at the

state of Europe and the lack of opportunity, growth, and jobs for

young people, it is not surprising that non-mainstream parties are

doing well. Indeed, you may have thought they would do even better, I

would suggest. Well, mainstream parties, the main problem they

have, they seem to have tried out different solutions which do not

appeal with voters. They do not see how that can make a difference to

their daily life and that is the great strength for the parties on

the left and right. In France, it is not surprising that the left is not

doing so well. For maybe 15 years, the Conservative parties and

socialist parties in France have put immigration and identity at the

centre of their issues and a radicalised these issues, and this

explains why it is the right, and not the left. Who is going to be the

centre-right candidate in the French European election? Yes. Know, who is

going to be? Well, certainly not Sarkozy. Marine Le Pen? Well, we

shall wait and see and have you back long before then. Do you know your

EPP from your S and D, and your GUE from your EFA? They do! They are

paid to. Fear not, here's Adam to explain in his latest A to Z of

Europe. Look at all of those MEPs, more than 700 of them. To make

things more manageable, the Parliaments operates a pan-European

political grouping, and this being the European Parliament, there is

some crazy art on display that allows me to explain. Think of the

groups as political armies. Each one has to have at least 25 foot

soldiers from at least seven member states. You want to join a group you

do not know which one is which? Let me explain. There are seven to

choose from. On the centre-right, there is the European People's

Party, the largest. There is the European Conservatives with 7%.

Here, you will find the Tories. The Socialists And Democrat has a

quarter of the seats. UKIP's home is the freedom and democracy group.

There are two smaller groups of Greens and nationalist. Sometimes,

the majority line is one but there are two or three parties who are

going to vote with other groups. This is a process of permanent

negotiation. Do the political groups get any perks? They do. They get

funding to spend on staff, offices and communications. Political perks

are in the lead up waste on group size. More members equals more

influence. Has anyone set up any new groups recently? A very young

looking David Cameron set up the Young Conservatives and reformist

after pledging to withdraw his MEPs from the European People's Party.

The MEPs who sit alone in The Chamber are known as the

non-attached. Some are shunned for holding extreme views and others

because they are fiercely independent. This man was in the

socialist group. From day one, I was turned into a soldier, and I got a

lot of letters from voters, saying, you have written and interesting

books as a journalist, I voted for you as an individual. As we know,

the troops are preparing for a big skirmish in the European elections

which could mean a change in the balance of power.

That is Adam who has taken to talking to in a minute objects! --

inanimate objects! How important are these groups? They are very

important. They determine the power and how we vote on these things.

They are very important and influential. Was it a mistake for

your party to come out of the mainstream right grouping? No, not

at all. We could not agree with the Federalist group. They wanted more

control of taxation and we did not agree with that. We thought it was

right to set up an alternative group who we did agree with. You are

source of aid Lee no mates in Europe, aren't you? No, not at all.

-- Giuly no mates. -- Billy no mates. There are not many, the that

is a fair point. Is there much difference between the mainstream

centre-right group and the socialist group? No. That is not true! There

are clear differences in terms of social policy. You can see, in the

Parliament, votes can come down to the wire, it is so close. In the new

Parliament, the votes will be, again, very close. You are sitting

here as the leader, and it looks like you are going to have a tough

time in creating a group, which is a good thing. I want to see a strong

socialist group. Thank you very much. That's all for today. Thanks

to my guests Martin Callanan and Catherine Stihler MEP. We wish you

buy buy. -- Bye bye.