29/04/2014 Daily Politics


29/04/2014

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. David Cameron firms up his

:00:39.:00:45.

pledge for an in-out referendum on Europe, saying he won't lead a

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government that can't deliver one. Will it convince the voters? What is

:00:49.:00:53.

the EU ever done for women? Well, quite a lot say its fan, so would

:00:54.:00:59.

women suffer if Britain left? They have come a long way since the

:01:00.:01:05.

Sinclair C 5 but are electric cars the future of British motoring? And

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as another British politician admits they admire the Russian President,

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we ask what is it about Vladimir? All that in the next hour, and with

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us for the whole programme today is one of Britain's leading

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commentators on public opinion. She worked for the Labour Party where

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she was Gordon Brown's pollster, now she runs a company called Britain

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Thinks. She is Deborah Mattinson. she runs a company called Britain

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Thinks. She is Westminster to the programme. First pupils have

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returned to school in Leeds, where yesterday 61-year-old Spanish and

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religious studies teacher Anne Maguire was stabbed to death. A

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15-year-old boy a pupil at the school has been arrested. She has

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been remembered as a mass in the church next door to the Corpus

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Christi Catholic College. A priest, Monsignor Paul Fisher, paid tribute

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to her. She was so full of life, she was always extremely positive, in a

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way, people have seen pictures of her, her face radiates goodness and

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kindness, that is what we have heard from many of the people who have

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been interviewed and many of the tributes say this, she was a

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wonderful woman. Deborah Mattinson, a shocking crime. Mercifully rare if

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you look back over the last 20 years or so. And increasingly rare, that

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is why it is so shocking, I think if you go back, 10, 20 years ago,

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people were much more fearful about crime, violent crime felt like it

:02:37.:02:40.

was more round us, we have been doing a survey looking at London and

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how Londoners feel about London, contrasting what we are finding with

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the '70s and 80s where crime dominated. At that point four in ten

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people said they didn't go out at night because they were fearful of

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crime in London. I think that has changed and for the better, which is

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what makes tragic events like yesterday's all the more shocking.

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It is interesting the decline in crime and it has been slowly coming

:03:03.:03:07.

down in most areas of crime over the last few decades but an incident

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like this in a school raises questions again, about whether there

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are even small number of pupils going into school with weapons. Yes,

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the thing about should pupils be screened, should it be like getting

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on an aeroplane, terrifying prospect, but when something like

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this happens we look at what we immediate to do to stop it has

:03:32.:03:35.

beening again. I think there is a feeling and hope that this is a

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one-off tragedy, and not something that could lead to the sort of thing

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that you have described, which is Koreaning of pupil, there will be

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people who will call for that. There certainly will, but personally I

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would be hoping that against the backdrop of decrease in crime and

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people's, you know increasing confidence generally, no

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withstanding yet, confidence about going out and about and about their

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daily tasks it will be seen as the one off that I hope it is S Let us

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leave it there. People using public transport in and

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round London are experiencing severe delays as tube workers continue

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their 48-hour strike over plans to close all ticket offices.

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The Prime Minister has called the strike unacceptable, and here are

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the views of some commuters this morning.

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I have an important meeting so devastated. I am stuck. I am

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debating whether to go home. It is a long walk. I support them. The of

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course, it makes travel difficult, but that is the point, but what they

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are fighting for is jobs and safety and the retention of ticket offices

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in tube stations. I can't see how anyone would disa degree with that.

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Stressed. Annoyed. I want to get to work, that is all I want to do, but

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I understand the strike, the reasons and stuff, but it doesn't make me

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feel better. Views of commuters trying to get the work. Joining me

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from RMT head office is the acting General Secretary of the RMT union

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Mick Cash. Welcome to the programme. Mr Cash, according to Transport for

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London there is a good service on the Northern Line and all other

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lines are running a service apart from the Circle line and the

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Waterloo line. Do you consider that a successful strike? I think I we

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have had a major impact on the service today. We don't want to be

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in this position, but we are, because Boris Johnson, the Mayor of

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London, who has waded into this debate today broke his promise to

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the people of London. We desperately tried yesterday to make sure the

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action didn't go ahead, but unfortunately, London Underground

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management seem to be inran gent and determined not to listen to our real

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concerns about the future of the tube network. Let us look at the

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future in terms of plans to close the ticket offices. The Mayor of

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London isn't going to change those plans, is he? He hasn't got the

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money to verse the cuts. Well, yes, you are right they have turned round

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and said they will make ?50 million worth of cuts, but he made that

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promise and he should keep that promise, when we were talking about

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every single booking office being closed. Every one, it is madness,

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absolute madness. He should know that. They are talking about 1,000

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jobs going on the back of that. We will come to the jobs in a moment.

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Is there room for compromise? How many ticket offices would you be

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prepared to see close? You say you think it is ridiculous to close all

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of them, what about three-quarters of them? Well, look, I mean we took

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action back in February, and we suspend the action because we were

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promised a station by station review, promised a station by

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station review by London Underground management. That hasn't happened.

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The questions you are asking would have been answered if they had, I am

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getting feedback, the question you are asking is actually created, is

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creating the difficulties for us, we wanted to be in a position to

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examine detail, line by line, station by station, London

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Underground's rational for closing booking offices and getting rid of

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vital staff. We wanted to make sure that the travelling public,

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Londoners were properly consulted. None of that has happened. But you

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in principle accept the idea that the tube network could function

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efficiently if a large number of ticket offices were closed? No, we

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do not accept that, we accept that we need to look at every single

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station and review what London Underground's plans are, and the

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rational behind it. We haven't had the opportunity do that. You are

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asking me to predetermine the outcome of a review, they have said

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you can have the review, but we will still close every booking office,

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and we will still make 1,000 job cuts. That is not the way to have

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meaningful discussions. Let us look at the job cut, because you are

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causing misery arguably to million of people in the south-east and none

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of your members is going to face compulsory redundancy. This is all

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voluntary and there are plenty of people offering themselves up for

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redundancy and they won't have their pay and conditions affected the ones

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who stay. No, there will be impact on the staff who stay, because you

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will have less staff to do the work. Is there compulsory redundancy?

:08:34.:08:37.

There are no compulsory redundancies are there? No, that is the problem

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you have got, if you let people go, when you haven't examined properly

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the need to close booking offices and to reduce staffing on stations

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you are going to be in a situation where you put the quality of service

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and safety at risk, hand is why we wanted this proper, full and

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meaningful consultation, that has not happened and I ambit early

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disappoint about that. We shouldn't be in this position. Yesterday when

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we met Mike Brown, we said we have drawn the threat over theory booking

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office, let us have a proper consultation, not only with with us

:09:15.:09:17.

but the travelling people and the people of London. They refused that.

:09:18.:09:20.

If they had accepted that suggestion s we wouldn't be talking today about

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industrial action, and it would not havehad. I am disappointed about

:09:26.:09:29.

that. The other trade union involved is still in talks with Transport for

:09:30.:09:33.

London, so why aren't you still in talks, if the transport Sallied --

:09:34.:09:36.

salaried staff association can go through the whole process, they said

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they will wait until the end, why have you walked out? Well, we

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haven't walked out. We have been in continuing discussions with London

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Underground since November last year, but certainly since March,

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February this year when we suspended the action, we have been trying to

:09:54.:09:56.

undertake these station by station review, we have a real problem here,

:09:57.:10:00.

because London Underground haven't done that, they have broken that

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promise, the other thing they are saying is whatever the outcome they

:10:05.:10:08.

are going to clovesry booking office and get rid of almost 1,000 job what

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is the purpose of having discussions if it is a sham exercise. Before you

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go do you think there is a chance next week's strikes will be called

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off? Well, I am hopeful next week's strikes will be called

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off? Well, I am that we can get round the table and talk with London

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Underground but they have to be stop being dogmatic, intransigent and

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make sure that the Mayor of London, who made promises sticks by his

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word. Thank you very much. Deborah Mattinson, public support

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for the tube strike is it there? In a word. No. I think that the union

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hasn't made their case. You know, people are facing huge amounts of

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disruption, and yes, there is no sympathy. Has it declined? We have

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had a number of sort of one day, two day 48-hour strikes. So you have

:10:59.:11:01.

seen a decline. There is a sense there is a bit of jockeying nor

:11:02.:11:05.

position in the union, there is a bit of muscle flexing going on, I

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don't think this is the way to win over the public. What about strikes

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in general? When we look at potential strikes by teachers, later

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on into the summer, is there support there? I think not. I mean, think

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the problem is that, the problem for unions is that they have to make

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their case in different ways, and it often becomes about the process s

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and not about the end. So, you know, there is very little about what the

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public benefit is, and that is where they need to be focussing, so, you

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know, the public, they are thinking how can I get to work, if teachers

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go on strike they think what am I going to do with my kid today? You

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know, the problem is about how they, how they make the case, the public

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case for what they are doing, and they are not doing that. OK. Leave

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it there. Just three weeks until the European

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elections and with the polls suggesting UKIP could come first and

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the Conservatives third, David Cameron has made a pledge on

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Britain's membership of the EU. Yes, another one. This time he said he

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won't stay on as Prime Minister if he fails to deliver an EU referendum

:12:12.:12:16.

after the general election. He said he would not barter or give

:12:17.:12:21.

away his pledge, and could not continue to be Prime Minister unless

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it was absolutely guaranteed a referendum would go ahead.

:12:27.:12:31.

This is the latest in a series of pledges from Mr Cameron on Britain's

:12:32.:12:37.

membership of the EU. It was in a long-awaited speech on Europe in

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January last year, that he first promised an in-out referendum on

:12:42.:12:46.

Britain's membership of the EU by the end of 2017 if the Conservatives

:12:47.:12:50.

won the next election. The Prime Minister said he needed

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time to renegotiate the terms of Britain's membership of the EU. Some

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Conservative MPs weren't happy that the referendum wasn't bound by law.

:13:01.:13:07.

Step forward backbench MP James Wharton, whose Private Members Bill

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attempted to legislate for an in-out referendum. Backed by the

:13:12.:13:15.

Conservative leader hip the bill passed the House of Commons. But was

:13:16.:13:20.

blocked by the House of Lords. So David Cameron's new intervention

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will be viewed at the latest attempt to convince sceptics his party will

:13:27.:13:29.

deliver a vote on the European Union. But will it work? We are

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joined now by UKIP Suzanne Evans, and Conservative MP Robert Buckland.

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Welcometo both of you. Receive, David Cameron says he will resign if

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he doesn't secure an EU referendum, it couldn't be clearer. If you want

:13:43.:13:49.

an in-out vote you must vote. How desperate is he to get those voters

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back? It does smack of extreme desperation, the fact is David

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Cameron has only promised that referendum if he is Prime Minister

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in 2015 and it is clear he is not going to be Prime Minister in 2015.

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So he has made another, yet another empty promise he can't fulfil. It

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can't be clear he is not going to be Prime Minister in 2015. You can't

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say that categorically. We have a polling expert. It looks like he

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can't win a majority verdict. If UKIP went away tomorrow the figures

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don't stack up for him. It is clear the Prime Minister accepts that a

:14:24.:14:27.

certain section of the Parliamentary particlety, never mind the voters

:14:28.:14:31.

doesn't believe he will deliver on a referendum, even if he is Prime

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Minister after 2015? I think it is clearer. The message is vote

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Conservative to get a referendum, secondly if there isn't an overall

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majority, then it will be a clear red line in any negotiations. It is

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obvious that the Prime Minister wants to be win the election, we

:14:48.:14:50.

want to win the election, but that it is going to be an important

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pillar of our policy platform we want a referendum for people to have

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an equal say, whether they are pro like me or against like Suzanne. The

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Liberal Democrats have made it clear that they wouldn't support the idea

:15:11.:15:16.

of a referendum, so he is ruling himself out as prime minister. We

:15:17.:15:21.

are assuming that people will vote in certain ways. This is about the

:15:22.:15:28.

general election. UKIP with respect can't. Only the Conservatives can

:15:29.:15:36.

deliver the referendum. Get a majority Conservative government,

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and we will have that referendum. Do you believe that there will be an

:15:41.:15:44.

in/out referendum? I think there will be as long as David Cameron

:15:45.:15:51.

does become Prime Minister in 2015. If he holds the balance of power

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with UKIP. That is the only way he will stick to his promise. So we

:15:58.:16:04.

need not just to put UKIP in the general elections but in the

:16:05.:16:06.

European elections stop but isn't that the problem? You may well do

:16:07.:16:09.

very well in the European elections, but when it comes to the general

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election, UKIP will fail to make the grade, and then it is a different

:16:16.:16:23.

matter. 2010 was a long time ago, but UKIP has changed since then, the

:16:24.:16:30.

knowledge we have about Europe, the voters, have all changed. Do you

:16:31.:16:33.

think Suzanne is right? Will it be different between the European

:16:34.:16:35.

elections this year and the general election next year? There is not a

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lot of evidence to suggest that that is the case. Certainly I would

:16:40.:16:44.

predict now that you will do well in the European elections, but I think

:16:45.:16:49.

what happens after that is anybody's guess. I am curious to see

:16:50.:16:57.

who you think will be Prime Minister in 2015 if you think it isn't going

:16:58.:17:00.

to be David Cameron. It does come back to this issue of trust, the

:17:01.:17:04.

fact that he has had to make this statement in the first instance. Why

:17:05.:17:08.

should people believe him? We had the cast-iron guarantee before and

:17:09.:17:17.

it melted away. Then we have the James Wharton bill that had to be a

:17:18.:17:21.

private members bill because he couldn't deliver it through the

:17:22.:17:25.

coalition. It didn't pass anyway for top these are all gestures. The

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James Wharton bill didn't pass because Labour, Liberal Democrat and

:17:31.:17:37.

the Lord's combined to make sure it didn't. The Lisbon matter was done

:17:38.:17:47.

by the time we came into office. We are talking about the future, the

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sort of reformed EU that we believe in, and we will get the referendum.

:17:57.:18:06.

You have just argued against your own argument. Unforeseen events

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change everything, just as you have described with the Lisbon Treaty. It

:18:14.:18:18.

isn't within your power to make a cast-iron guarantee even if David

:18:19.:18:20.

Cameron is Prime Minister. David Cameron is very pro E U. How much

:18:21.:18:25.

money is he going to put into keeping us in on a campaign? Look at

:18:26.:18:29.

how dirty the politics has got this week against UKIP. How much dirtier

:18:30.:18:33.

will it get? I think it is crude and new. UKIP claim that the ?5 million

:18:34.:18:38.

a day is being spent, and it is 24 million. UKIP claim that we are in

:18:39.:18:46.

deficit in terms of our trade with Europe, wrong. Goods and services,

:18:47.:18:52.

we are in surplus. Let's get the facts right, not have a debate about

:18:53.:18:57.

name-calling. On the facts, those of us who are positive about our

:18:58.:19:02.

membership of Europe will win. You are positive that if David Cameron

:19:03.:19:05.

doesn't succeed in repatriating significant powers, you will still

:19:06.:19:10.

vote to stay in? I think we should vote to stay in. There is every

:19:11.:19:20.

prospect, the Northern European nations are looking at things at the

:19:21.:19:23.

free movement directive to check that it might need to be redrafted.

:19:24.:19:29.

We could recast that to make sure it is not going beyond the intentions

:19:30.:19:36.

of politicians. It is all pie in the sky. This is real politics. The pie

:19:37.:19:41.

in the sky is the UKIP myth of Britain floating free on the high

:19:42.:19:46.

seas. It would devalue Britain's role. We have huge influence, and

:19:47.:19:56.

our influence... We do not. This is a negative argument, and it is time

:19:57.:20:01.

UKIP or challenged on the facts. Let Suzanne answer. You say we have no

:20:02.:20:09.

influence. We don't. Laws are not made in the European Parliament. The

:20:10.:20:16.

rules are made by unelected bureaucrats. Wrong. Wrong. It makes

:20:17.:20:28.

decisions. It is a shame that UKIP MEPs don't turn up to help make the

:20:29.:20:37.

rules. It is time we had to those who did hard work rather than

:20:38.:20:43.

absentia MEPs like UKIP. So why is a concern that UKIP might be going to

:20:44.:20:49.

top the poll? I'm interesting in the politics of Europe, and I want to

:20:50.:20:53.

persuade people of the merits of voting Conservative. Labour have

:20:54.:20:57.

come out to say that they won't change their stance on giving the

:20:58.:21:01.

British people a referendum post 2015 even if UKIP beats the mini

:21:02.:21:06.

European poll. What would the public like? Would they like Labour to

:21:07.:21:11.

offer a referendum as well? The public definitely want a referendum.

:21:12.:21:14.

Where they stand at the moment is fairly evenly split. Having said

:21:15.:21:18.

that, if the kind of reforms that David Cameron brought in does go up

:21:19.:21:26.

considerably. You are polling well in the European elections, but eight

:21:27.:21:31.

YouGov poll in March suggested more people want to stay in them to

:21:32.:21:37.

leave. It is a question that we have had for decades European propaganda

:21:38.:21:41.

coming from all of the main parties. No other party has had a high enough

:21:42.:21:48.

profile to deliver the opposite side of the story there is a lot of very

:21:49.:21:57.

effective anti-EU propaganda. If you stop someone on the street and ask

:21:58.:22:00.

them what the U has done for them, they don't know. You could say that

:22:01.:22:09.

the pro-camp haven't done their job very well. Thank you all.

:22:10.:22:14.

So, you all watched the big debate last night, right?

:22:15.:22:17.

I speak of course of the first of three televised debates

:22:18.:22:20.

between candidates for the position of President of the European

:22:21.:22:23.

Commission, a post currently held by Jose Manuel Barroso.

:22:24.:22:25.

Not to be confused of course with the President of the

:22:26.:22:28.

European Council or the President of the European Parliament.

:22:29.:22:31.

Here's a little taster of what you might have missed.

:22:32.:22:37.

We begin with Martin shots, the candidate for the socialist and

:22:38.:22:55.

Labour parties. And the candidate for the European Green party.

:22:56.:23:05.

APPLAUSE And the candidate for the Alliance

:23:06.:23:08.

of Liberals and Democrats for Europe party.

:23:09.:23:16.

APPLAUSE And the candidate for the European

:23:17.:23:20.

people's party. APPLAUSE

:23:21.:23:27.

Well, we did find someone if Brussels who

:23:28.:23:29.

Our correspondent Ben Wright is there.

:23:30.:23:34.

Ben, give us the lowdown on those candidates and who won the first

:23:35.:23:41.

televised debate? They are all very familiar names

:23:42.:23:50.

(ex-mac) these other people but those in the European Parliament

:23:51.:23:53.

have decided should be their candidate in the race to be the next

:23:54.:23:55.

president of the European Commission. It matters hugely who

:23:56.:24:15.

does the job. So we have a line-up of five, although only four were

:24:16.:24:23.

there last night. There was the spread of four from the green

:24:24.:24:30.

through to the EP P. It was an interesting spectacle. They are all

:24:31.:24:36.

believers in the European Union, not a Nigel Farage among them. They

:24:37.:24:43.

believe the European Union produces better economic growth, has a more

:24:44.:24:46.

coherent foreign policy. Of consensus. But there is a lot of

:24:47.:24:55.

differences, too. They had the anti-austerities voice, and the man

:24:56.:24:59.

of sound money. So there were different platforms laid out, and it

:25:00.:25:03.

was a novelty. For the first time, they are trying to put a single face

:25:04.:25:06.

to the various European political platforms. And he does have that

:25:07.:25:10.

feeling then of being more presidential. This is an important

:25:11.:25:15.

contest in terms of the European Union and any future economic

:25:16.:25:22.

policy, because there is diverging in whether you pursue more austerity

:25:23.:25:28.

for Southern European countries, or go for more stimulus, taking you in

:25:29.:25:34.

a different direction. Yes, and that is a very divided debate here in

:25:35.:25:40.

Brussels, still. All of the candidates concede that European

:25:41.:25:43.

growth is far weaker than it should be, and that the story of the

:25:44.:25:48.

eurozone crisis is far from over. There were fairly distinct economic

:25:49.:25:52.

platforms set out. One of the surreal things about all of this is

:25:53.:25:57.

that even though in the European Parliament have decided that they

:25:58.:26:00.

should do this, they should put forward candidates, and that in

:26:01.:26:05.

their view, the group that is the largest has the biggest majority

:26:06.:26:10.

after the European elections will be the candidate that becomes the

:26:11.:26:15.

European Commission, national leaders and the European Council are

:26:16.:26:18.

really not very happy about this at all. They think the European

:26:19.:26:22.

Parliament is overstepping its remit here, misreading the Lisbon Treaty.

:26:23.:26:27.

You are looking at quite a bust up after the European elections,

:26:28.:26:29.

because there are names knocking around that people like David

:26:30.:26:32.

Cameron and other European leaders would much rather have in charge of

:26:33.:26:37.

the European Commission, not any of these four.

:26:38.:26:39.

would much rather have in charge of the European Commission, When the

:26:40.:26:43.

next two debates? Good question. One is on May the 15th, being broadcast

:26:44.:26:47.

by the European broadcasting union, that is the one that will be shown

:26:48.:26:51.

on the BBC. I think there is another one before that. Ben, thank you very

:26:52.:26:54.

much. Well, quite a lot according to

:26:55.:26:58.

its fans, who say that a British exit from the EU would be

:26:59.:27:04.

a setback for women's rights. Paola Buonadonna is from the

:27:05.:27:07.

British Influence, a pro-EU pressure group, and

:27:08.:27:09.

UKIP's Suzanne Evans is still here. Paola, welcome to the programme. Are

:27:10.:27:23.

there examples of where we would be worse off without the E U?

:27:24.:27:27.

Absolutely, but first of all, it is not an abstract concept. I would

:27:28.:27:31.

argue that Britain working with its other partners in the EU has for the

:27:32.:27:37.

past 40 years contributed to bring forward measures that have made the

:27:38.:27:40.

lives of women much, much better. Starting off in 1975 with the equal

:27:41.:27:45.

pay legislation, and progressing on with maternity leave, parental

:27:46.:27:50.

leave. Measures fighting discrimination against women in the

:27:51.:27:53.

workplace, but also in access to services, really concrete measures,

:27:54.:27:58.

without whom the life of women would be much worse. And also, we with the

:27:59.:28:03.

other partners, the UK and the rest of them, are exerting a lot more

:28:04.:28:08.

pressure on other countries to make sure that gender rights are taken

:28:09.:28:18.

seriously and improve. Has that made much difference here in the UK. Are

:28:19.:28:23.

those achievements you talk about, such as equal pay, which many women

:28:24.:28:26.

would tell you still isn't a reality, many of those policies

:28:27.:28:31.

would be in place anyway, whether or not EU legislation had taken place?

:28:32.:28:36.

This is interesting, because if I understand it correctly, if your

:28:37.:28:45.

party triumphed in an alternative scenario in the general election

:28:46.:28:48.

next year, it would be your priority to take Britain out of the EE in

:28:49.:28:54.

order to create a huge bonfire of legislation measures. That is what

:28:55.:29:00.

you want? That is a logical end of what you envision? Is that what you

:29:01.:29:07.

think? That you would be rolling back rights for employees. That

:29:08.:29:14.

would affect women. We have heard Nigel Farage say that women with

:29:15.:29:19.

children are worthless to employers. It is true that we want a bonfire of

:29:20.:29:26.

an enormous number of regulations, we have had more than 4000 since

:29:27.:29:31.

2010 alone. Which ones? It is interesting that Paola mentioned the

:29:32.:29:39.

1975 equal pay act, but we had no need for it, because we already had

:29:40.:29:46.

the equal pay act of 1970. It tries to take over existing British laws

:29:47.:29:49.

and even water them down and make things worse for women. I can give

:29:50.:29:55.

you three examples of how the EU has made things worse for women. Let's

:29:56.:30:00.

take people trafficking. The majority of them are women sold into

:30:01.:30:05.

sex slavery. With the open door policy it is much easier now for a

:30:06.:30:08.

woman in the Czech Republic or Bulgaria to be told she is getting a

:30:09.:30:11.

lovely job in Britain, Germany, France, and find herself a sex slave

:30:12.:30:17.

in a brothel. Car insurance premiums have gone up purely because of EU

:30:18.:30:23.

regulation. We all know that women are the safest and most capable

:30:24.:30:26.

drivers. That is why we used to have cheaper car insurance. We no longer

:30:27.:30:30.

do. And zero hours contracts have been in the news all week. We can

:30:31.:30:35.

chart the rise of zero hours contracts which particularly affect

:30:36.:30:39.

women since the EU agency workers directive. It is big business's way

:30:40.:30:44.

of getting around regulation. because Tay a trafficked from

:30:45.:31:00.

outside and the this Government who had an opt out on EU wide

:31:01.:31:05.

anti-trafficking measures and decided to opt back in because

:31:06.:31:10.

Britain would have been a magnet for human traffickers, if they had been

:31:11.:31:14.

the only country not to strengthen controls and measures on that. The

:31:15.:31:17.

car insurance thing, that is the flip side of something else. That is

:31:18.:31:22.

a flip side of not treating women pensioners worse than male

:31:23.:31:25.

pensioners. If you want women to be equal, then you have to treat them

:31:26.:31:29.

equally with men, for everything you might think we have lost, we have

:31:30.:31:34.

gained something more substantial. Let me ask, in terms of the policies

:31:35.:31:40.

and bureaucracy you could like to get rid of. It is rue your party

:31:41.:31:47.

advocates scrapping a raft of employment rights for small

:31:48.:31:51.

business, including parental leave. No that is a myth. You wouldn't

:31:52.:31:55.

scrap parental leave, you won't want to see that being taken out in thes

:31:56.:32:01.

of employee rights? We wouldn't. It is interesting. When I look at the

:32:02.:32:06.

sources she puts forward for all these concerns she says, these

:32:07.:32:11.

policies she says that UKIP has, like establishing equal pay. Look at

:32:12.:32:17.

your manifesto. With respect I checked the website out. Was it not

:32:18.:32:23.

in your manifesto in 2010? ? That has been ripped up. Nigel Farage

:32:24.:32:29.

says we haven't got the 2015 manifesto. Which one are we working

:32:30.:32:39.

on. Nigel says he hasn't read the 2012 manifesto. What is on is it

:32:40.:32:45.

getting out of EU. Taking control of our borders again. You have no

:32:46.:32:48.

vision beyond that. We have huge visions beyond that. It is about

:32:49.:32:52.

green taxes, there is another way in which the EU has not supported

:32:53.:32:56.

women. 20% of fuel bills are caused by the green taxes that have been

:32:57.:33:02.

imposed by the EU. Who, who is affected worse? Very often British

:33:03.:33:06.

female pensioners living alone who are in desperate fuel poverty. Did

:33:07.:33:10.

you regret Nigel Farage's comment, you say he didn't say it, he did say

:33:11.:33:15.

women who leave to have children are far worse less in a client sense to

:33:16.:33:21.

employers and young able women stick with their careers do as well if not

:33:22.:33:27.

better than men if they sacrifice a family life. He made it clear he was

:33:28.:33:33.

with you, think, Jo, he was talking about that instance when he was

:33:34.:33:36.

working, nobody believes that. I certainly don't. Do you think as an

:33:37.:33:39.

intelligent woman I would be in a party like UKIP if I thought it was

:33:40.:33:47.

even remotely sixist? To you, you have written the rise of UKIP has

:33:48.:33:57.

been the... I want to clarify this, UKIP has come back and is enjoying a

:33:58.:34:01.

measure of success for a number of reason, and there are also good

:34:02.:34:06.

reasons why people feel annoyed about the way the debate has been

:34:07.:34:11.

conducted, about the fact that the Westminster elites are responding to

:34:12.:34:17.

the needs or worry, I don't want to disqualify or lessen the concerns of

:34:18.:34:21.

people who might be inclined to vote for UKIP. The Berlusconi-fication, I

:34:22.:34:30.

have to TM it, it is mine. Of British public life and media. When

:34:31.:34:36.

Berlusconi recreated himself as a politician in Italy he was given a

:34:37.:34:41.

20 year pass from having to explain himself, from having to answer

:34:42.:34:46.

supplementary questions in interview, from having to be

:34:47.:34:50.

coherent and or be ashamed of the kind of things that would have led

:34:51.:34:55.

somebody else to resign. Is Nigel Farage like Berlusconi? Not in any

:34:56.:34:58.

other respect but he is in this respect. He is treated as a

:34:59.:35:04.

phenomenon, above the rules. I want to bring Deborah Mattinson in.

:35:05.:35:07.

Suzanne Evans said she would not be in a party that is not sexist. What

:35:08.:35:15.

is the view to of women to UKIP? UKIP has less support from women

:35:16.:35:19.

than men. The classic UKIP supporter is an older man, however, there is

:35:20.:35:24.

an interesting gender gap, well, I mean, that is what the data bears

:35:25.:35:32.

out. It is true. There is an interesting gender gap in attitudes

:35:33.:35:36.

towards Europe, which is that men are significantly more likely to

:35:37.:35:41.

support staying in than women. Men about 42%. Women about 27%. Why?

:35:42.:35:45.

Well, when you ask women, you know, what the reasons for that is, they

:35:46.:35:49.

don't, they don't actually know enough, they are more likely to say

:35:50.:35:54.

I don't know. So I would say your positive case isn't being well

:35:55.:35:57.

enough made. It may be there, it is not well enough made. That is

:35:58.:36:02.

interesting. That is a poignant statistic in terms of the message

:36:03.:36:06.

that is not getting across to we I think what it is is that politics is

:36:07.:36:15.

dealt with an either boo-ho shouty rowdy rhetoric of Westminster, or in

:36:16.:36:19.

the case of the coverage of UKIP's, so far as a bit of a joke, with

:36:20.:36:23.

Nigel being the chap down the pub and so on and so forth. There has

:36:24.:36:27.

been nothing for women to tune in and to get a sense of what is

:36:28.:36:33.

actually... I would agree. Women are more disengaged with politics. It is

:36:34.:36:37.

just partly the nature of thing, women have a lot more pressing

:36:38.:36:42.

issues to concern about. Than politics. That is right. I really

:36:43.:36:50.

struggle. I think that is the issue. Politics a huge amount of time and

:36:51.:36:54.

energy. I sometimes think it is not so easy for women to get involved

:36:55.:36:58.

which is a great shame. Thank you. Now, our guest of the day Deborah

:36:59.:37:02.

Mattinson is an expert on what Britain thinks, she used to work for

:37:03.:37:06.

the last Labour Prime Minister, Gordon Brown. What does Britain

:37:07.:37:10.

think about the man who wants to be the next Labour Prime Minister Ed

:37:11.:37:13.

Miliband? We will ask her in a minute, but to get things started

:37:14.:37:18.

Adam took the Daily Politics mood box to -- Hertfordshire.

:37:19.:37:22.

If he wants to get into Number Ten he has to win in places like this,

:37:23.:37:27.

Stevenage, a Tory marginal, so where better to ask the question has Ed

:37:28.:37:31.

Miliband got what it takes to be Prime Minister? Yes or no? What is

:37:32.:37:39.

he missing? I don't think he has a grasp on anything really. I don't

:37:40.:37:45.

think any of them have to be honest. What are his most Prime Ministerial

:37:46.:37:49.

qualities? I don't know politics. Is He looks the part. Oh yes. He is not

:37:50.:37:57.

a bad man. First satisfied customer Ed. And he has fallen over. He has

:37:58.:38:02.

given up already. His brother would have been better. Really? Yes. Do

:38:03.:38:06.

you think he is going to lose Labour the election? I think so. So what is

:38:07.:38:11.

so wrong with him? He has no go. Really? No. Can he get some go in

:38:12.:38:19.

time for the next election. It will take a (BLEEP) miracle. There is

:38:20.:38:24.

something about his hair I am not keen on. Is there something about

:38:25.:38:29.

his eyes? Yes Why? He is confident. I saw him a few months ago. You have

:38:30.:38:36.

seen the real one. Got it on my phone to prove it. How does the

:38:37.:38:41.

cardboard cut off In real life I don't think he smiles that much. Ed

:38:42.:38:44.

Miliband is Labour. The working class people of this country should

:38:45.:38:49.

never vote for the Tories at all. There is a ruling class elite. You

:38:50.:38:54.

put a snipe on his face. He doesn't have a backbone. He stood up to News

:38:55.:38:58.

International, the energy firms Not if you look at him, he is more

:38:59.:39:11.

reactive than proactive. Give him a kiss. What were you

:39:12.:39:15.

saying about him? He is useless. What do you think it would be like

:39:16.:39:18.

to hang out with Ed Miliband? Boring. Boring completely. A night

:39:19.:39:25.

out in Nandos with Ed Miliband? I would be up for that!

:39:26.:39:32.

One member, one vote. Just like the Labour leadership contests.

:39:33.:39:37.

What is his best quality? He has the socialist principles and that is

:39:38.:39:41.

what is important to me. And other people. I don't think he has the

:39:42.:39:46.

gravitas to be Prime Minister. He is torn between the unions and the

:39:47.:39:54.

members of his party. The real Ed was here and he saw that

:39:55.:39:58.

result, what do you think he would do? Probably cry! What does he make

:39:59.:40:06.

you think? He is a really good chef. He is a really good chef. Yes, he is

:40:07.:40:12.

a chef isn't he The people of the marginal seat of Stevenage have

:40:13.:40:16.

spoken, they are clear he doesn't have what it takes to be Prime

:40:17.:40:19.

Minister. I know it is not scientific. Come on. I love the idea

:40:20.:40:27.

of Ed Miliband as a celebrity chef. Which one, I am not sure. With us is

:40:28.:40:37.

the Telegraph columnist Dan Hodges who probably doesn't think thinks he

:40:38.:40:48.

doesn't have what it takes. Does it reflect what you find in your polls

:40:49.:40:52.

in terms of people's views on Ed Miliband? I think that the polls

:40:53.:40:57.

very clearly show that Ed Miliband has some with to go in persuading

:40:58.:41:01.

the public he has what it take, having said that, I think it is the

:41:02.:41:05.

very first lady in your package said, you know, they have all got

:41:06.:41:09.

problem, she said none of them have it. None have what it take, that is

:41:10.:41:13.

what the polls beer out. We have never been at a point where all the

:41:14.:41:20.

political leaders are held in such low regard. -- bare. People look at

:41:21.:41:24.

them and say, you know what, I don't like any of them, and that is the

:41:25.:41:29.

situation we are in. According to your rivals, YouGov Ed Miliband

:41:30.:41:31.

scores better than the Prime Minister on thinks like honesty and

:41:32.:41:36.

being in touch with ordinary people, but loses out on strength and being

:41:37.:41:43.

good in a crisis, decisiveness, the things you would need for people to

:41:44.:41:46.

see you as the next Prime Minister. So a nice guy but not someone would

:41:47.:41:51.

like in charge, is that fair? Yes, I think that is fair, I mean going

:41:52.:41:55.

back to the point I just made there, if you look at this YouGov data or

:41:56.:42:00.

any data that looks at the attributes of leader, you will see

:42:01.:42:04.

the current batch score lore than any other previous group of people.

:42:05.:42:08.

The highest score anybody gets the average is in the low teens on these

:42:09.:42:13.

sorts of attributes, Ed Miliband does have one very clear strength,

:42:14.:42:18.

which is being in touch with the needs of ordinary people. And that

:42:19.:42:21.

is something I any needs to build on. Isn't that going to be key in

:42:22.:42:26.

the run up to the election? That is why the leadership and the Labour

:42:27.:42:29.

Party are pushing things like the cost of living crisis, if he is seen

:42:30.:42:33.

as the embodiment if you like of that, then that will do him a lot of

:42:34.:42:37.

favours. The Dee when people are choosing a Prime Minister is one of

:42:38.:42:41.

the candidates is best suited to be Prime Minister, as we have said Ed

:42:42.:42:45.

Miliband consistently lags behind David Cameron on all key indicator,

:42:46.:42:49.

what is interesting about Ed Miliband, I said to Deborah before

:42:50.:42:53.

we came on, we have had several discussions of this nature since Ed

:42:54.:42:57.

Miliband was elected leader and they are the same. The perceptions of Ed

:42:58.:43:02.

Miliband haven't really changed since the first six months after he

:43:03.:43:07.

was elected. He has that window to define himself, he failed. The

:43:08.:43:10.

public have made their mind up about Ed Miliband now. They won't be

:43:11.:43:14.

changing this side of the election and Labour will have to win the next

:43:15.:43:18.

election, despite Ed Miliband, not because of him. Do you they is true

:43:19.:43:23.

the perceptions were set at the beginning and that is it? I think

:43:24.:43:28.

that haven't changed as much as he would have liked them to have. I

:43:29.:43:31.

think there was some improvement. The cost of living campaign was

:43:32.:43:35.

successful. It put him on the map. The challenge, and it is a problem

:43:36.:43:39.

being leader of the opposition, famously it's the worst job in

:43:40.:43:43.

politics, it is very hard to get yourself in the limelight to get

:43:44.:43:47.

people to hear what you are say, he has not done that as well as he

:43:48.:43:50.

should have done. He needed clearer communications than he has had and

:43:51.:43:55.

he needs to up his game. But there has been some improvement. It is

:43:56.:44:00.

unfair to say there has been none. This is argument we have had from

:44:01.:44:09.

supporters, his approval ratings have, if anything deteriorated. You

:44:10.:44:14.

know, the interesting thing I think is tactically is the way the Labour

:44:15.:44:17.

Party keep doubling down own Ed Miliband. This is the strategic

:44:18.:44:22.

problem they have got. Because his approval ratings are so weak they

:44:23.:44:26.

try to build him up. They build their political strategy round him.

:44:27.:44:29.

Labour has quite a talented team, it has a number of talented front

:44:30.:44:37.

bench, Andy Burnham, Chuka Umunna, people who are interested in. Who

:44:38.:44:40.

can communicate well and they have been pushed to one side in this

:44:41.:44:44.

failed attempt, if you like, to build up Ed Miliband, and sooner

:44:45.:44:47.

rather than later the Labour Party will have to cut their losses on Ed

:44:48.:44:51.

Miliband and start to push the rest of the Shadow Cabinet. Not have a

:44:52.:44:56.

new leader? . No. I mean they will have to is that right to focus on

:44:57.:44:59.

the team. Do you agree with that? I think there is a need to bring the

:45:00.:45:03.

rest of the team forward and I agree that there is a talented team there,

:45:04.:45:07.

but I also think that you know, the party is not going to win, without

:45:08.:45:12.

persuading people that Ed Miliband is going to be a suitable PM. There

:45:13.:45:17.

is some way to go with that. I wouldn't disagree. Where I don't

:45:18.:45:20.

agree, I don't think there has been no progress, I don't think his

:45:21.:45:26.

ratings have got worse. We are debating whether he will be Prime

:45:27.:45:30.

Minister. He is currently losing the mantle of being leader the

:45:31.:45:33.

opposition which is being taken by Nigel Farage. We are going into the

:45:34.:45:37.

euro election, this should be Labour's breakthrough moment. Labour

:45:38.:45:40.

is fighting for its life, to even top the poll. Now that is a

:45:41.:45:44.

ridiculous situation for party in opposition. Except they would argue

:45:45.:45:59.

that it is more difficult for the Conservatives than it is for Labour.

:46:00.:46:04.

But he has taken quite tough positions, or certainly ones that

:46:05.:46:07.

are noticeable on things like Syria, on his own leadership

:46:08.:46:11.

election, and taking on the energy companies. Those were specific

:46:12.:46:15.

positions, you might not agree with them but they were positions. But

:46:16.:46:20.

this is the problem. He takes decisions which align himself with

:46:21.:46:24.

what he sees as his natural constituency, and the constituency

:46:25.:46:30.

he identifies is too narrow. So he has either appealed to Lib Dem

:46:31.:46:36.

switchers, or that part of the electorate the left Labour because

:46:37.:46:42.

of Tony Blair. At the point when he should have been introducing him to

:46:43.:46:52.

the public at whole, he lost it. Do you think Labour will win? No. They

:46:53.:46:58.

have been ahead consistently in the polls are couple of months. That

:46:59.:47:02.

must be in part down to Ed Miliband, surely? Labour are currently having

:47:03.:47:13.

a 4% lead with UKIP holding 12 or 13%. That is after the

:47:14.:47:16.

a 4% lead with UKIP holding 12 or 13%. That is after Government has

:47:17.:47:17.

been pursuing this historic posterity agenda. The key thing is

:47:18.:47:23.

on the two key issues of leadership and the economy, Labour is too far

:47:24.:47:29.

behind now to win the next election. You think it is a tactical mistake

:47:30.:47:32.

of Ed Miliband to be pushing the televised debates? If he hasn't got

:47:33.:47:40.

the sort of charismatic leadership style that Dan Hodges maintains he

:47:41.:47:45.

hasn't got, why push that? He would be very exposed potentially. Or does

:47:46.:47:50.

he not have much to lose? I think he might do quite well in the debates.

:47:51.:47:54.

Where we have got to, there is this common view that he is not hacking

:47:55.:47:59.

it, although by the way, the most likely outcome still has to be

:48:00.:48:02.

Labour is the largest party, even if it doesn't win outright. Setting

:48:03.:48:11.

that aside for a minute, if people's expectations are low, he

:48:12.:48:14.

can perform well. He is a good speaker. I think he might confound

:48:15.:48:19.

people and do much better than people expect. He is certainly

:48:20.:48:23.

starting from a low base, but the debates aren't going to happen

:48:24.:48:26.

because you can't have them without Nigel Farage getting into the frame,

:48:27.:48:30.

and David Cameron isn't gay to walk onto stage next to Nigel Farage. --

:48:31.:48:39.

isn't going to. He doesn't want to spend the next ten or 12 months.

:48:40.:48:47.

Now, Nick Clegg and Danny Alexander have announced details

:48:48.:48:50.

of ?500 million worth of investment to support the development

:48:51.:48:52.

of low-emission cars, including cash to provide more charge points

:48:53.:48:55.

I think we need to show people that we are keeping the price down when

:48:56.:49:08.

people buy them, so the government is funding a deduction of ?5,000 if

:49:09.:49:13.

you buy one. Second, we're making sure it is run, so we are installing

:49:14.:49:18.

thousands of charging points up and down the country. By this time next

:49:19.:49:24.

year, every electric -- service station will have an electric

:49:25.:49:34.

points. We will make cities and councils make bus lanes available

:49:35.:49:40.

for them. I really think if we can persuade people that they are

:49:41.:49:45.

convenient and affordable, and there is no need to worry that the battery

:49:46.:49:49.

will run out while you are driving it, more and more people will buy

:49:50.:49:51.

them. Nick Clegg.

:49:52.:49:56.

So, do electric vehicles really represent the future of motoring

:49:57.:49:58.

We're joined now by the Liberal Democrat MP Tessa Munt and Hilton

:49:59.:50:02.

It is going to take more than ?5,000 to change people's views. What it

:50:03.:50:19.

will do is focus more money on research and development so that we

:50:20.:50:22.

get the prices of these cars down. They are quite expensive. Some of

:50:23.:50:28.

them are. You can buy one for about ?16,000, which is still a lot of

:50:29.:50:33.

money. But we need to also focus on the huge benefits. If I bought a

:50:34.:50:38.

second-hand electric car, and there is a second-hand market gaining, I

:50:39.:50:46.

could actually save the purchase price of the car in one year in the

:50:47.:50:51.

mileage. It is about attitude and perception. Using programmes like

:50:52.:50:55.

top gear but people off electric cars? No, I don't think so. Quentin

:50:56.:51:02.

Willson, motoring journalist, is an avid supporter. When you look at

:51:03.:51:08.

urban milage, the average urban milage is 17 miles a day, that is so

:51:09.:51:13.

easily done. The capacity of these vehicles is going up and up. That's

:51:14.:51:18.

look at that point, of urban cars. I imagine Ben meisters are -- I

:51:19.:51:25.

imagined in my scenario that they would be useful, but most people

:51:26.:51:28.

don't have somewhere to park the car where you could charge it overnight.

:51:29.:51:33.

Isn't that a key problem? It is. I had an electric car for a year. I

:51:34.:51:36.

had a driveway with a charger. Isn't that a key problem? It is. I

:51:37.:51:37.

had an electric car for a year. When I moved to a flat, the car became

:51:38.:51:46.

hopeless. And they suffer in the winter. When it is very, very cold,

:51:47.:51:53.

the range shrinks down. If you're going to Gatwick Airport, it can be

:51:54.:51:59.

touch and go in the winter. What about more charge points? That would

:52:00.:52:04.

mitigate the fear of breaking down or running out. It would. They are

:52:05.:52:11.

fantastically good to drive. I have just driven hearing one. Are you a

:52:12.:52:19.

fan? Brilliant to do drive. It is very suitable for a very narrow way

:52:20.:52:32.

of using a car. Have you managed to persuade Tesla to let you drive

:52:33.:52:42.

their S? I haven't yet. That is why the research and development is so

:52:43.:52:46.

important. If you look at what happened with all of those things

:52:47.:52:49.

like solar panels, they were very expensive, limited government help,

:52:50.:52:55.

a little bit of help, it comes down and it keeps coming down. I have

:52:56.:53:00.

driven everything, I am lucky. The Tesla is the one car I haven't

:53:01.:53:05.

driven. I have driven fuel celled cars. I have more hope for cars

:53:06.:53:19.

powered by natural gas plus pollutants are an issue, which

:53:20.:53:24.

electric cars playing to. Hydrogen in a fuel cells in ten or 15 years

:53:25.:53:28.

could be the thing. You don't think there will be an electric car

:53:29.:53:32.

revolution? There is a place for them. Every car will have some kind

:53:33.:53:38.

of electrification, but big fat battery packs? Maybe not. Where will

:53:39.:53:43.

you put the new charge points? Where I live in Somerset, I live in

:53:44.:53:50.

Wedmore, and at the pub there, there is an electric charging point. What

:53:51.:53:56.

more could you want? I don't have an electric car yet, but these can be

:53:57.:53:59.

put anywhere. Glastonbury is doing a programme of having them in the high

:54:00.:54:05.

Street. In rural areas where you are going to do greater distances, I

:54:06.:54:09.

presume, then comes what they call the range anxiety, and you will

:54:10.:54:14.

worry. I would worry the whole time. The Tesla S... I do a few

:54:15.:54:24.

miles... There is evidence that Kessler and Audi would probably

:54:25.:54:32.

follow up with batteries. We can't let the other countries do it, we

:54:33.:54:37.

have to do it. Thank you both very much.

:54:38.:54:40.

Now, which political leaders do you admire?

:54:41.:54:42.

Well that's what the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond has said

:54:43.:54:52.

Speaking on March the 14th as Russia was being accused of military

:54:53.:54:57.

aggression over the future of Crimea, which it has since annexed,

:54:58.:55:00.

in neighbouring Ukraine, Alex Salmond said he admires "certain

:55:01.:55:02.

aspects" of Mr Putin, including how he had restored part

:55:03.:55:05.

of Russian pride, although added he does not approve

:55:06.:55:07.

He's not the first party leader to make such comments, so let's have

:55:08.:55:15.

# What a man, what a man, what a man...

:55:16.:56:19.

And we're joined now by the psychotherapist Lucy Beresford.

:56:20.:56:30.

Deborah Mattinson, he an interesting character. Are these politicians

:56:31.:56:40.

right to say that they are full of admiration for, or admire him? If

:56:41.:56:46.

that is what they feel, they are right to say it. We asked people in

:56:47.:56:51.

a survey who they respected as political leaders, and I don't

:56:52.:56:57.

recall Putin appearing anywhere. He is not really on the public radar.

:56:58.:57:03.

He might be a little more now. Is it because some of our male leaders

:57:04.:57:07.

admire that rather aggressive, match... Alpha male, I can shoot a

:57:08.:57:15.

gun, I can walk through the hail. There is something about the way he

:57:16.:57:18.

has harnessed the nationalist fervour in Russia that anybody who

:57:19.:57:25.

was disgruntled at the collapse of the Soviet Union is supporting him,

:57:26.:57:28.

and maybe Nigel Farage things, I want a bit of that. And he is also

:57:29.:57:34.

may be trying to say, I'm not like the people before me, not like RAC,

:57:35.:57:42.

not weak over Syria like Obama. Not like Boris Yeltsin. Strength is what

:57:43.:57:51.

people want, even if you don't agree with what they say? What people want

:57:52.:57:57.

is strongly do ship. And you can't get much stronger than that. I do

:57:58.:58:02.

think there are gender differences there, and polling bears that out.

:58:03.:58:06.

If we look at what is happening in the UK, the Labour voters, women go

:58:07.:58:14.

for Labour with their soft values, and they think more of Ed Miliband

:58:15.:58:15.

than men do. for Labour with their soft values,

:58:16.:58:18.

and they Men are more likely to support UKIP, for example, and love

:58:19.:58:26.

Nigel Farage and the lavish... When we see Putin stripping off, taking

:58:27.:58:31.

his top off, he is saying, I am all man, I am the Fatherland. He is

:58:32.:58:36.

identifying with Russia. His destiny and the country's destiny are

:58:37.:58:40.

entwined, particularly because he has been in power for so long.

:58:41.:58:42.

Thank you very much. The One O'Clock News is

:58:43.:58:49.

starting over on BBC One now. Andrew and I will be here

:58:50.:58:54.

at 11.30 tomorrow with Prime Minister's Questions and all the big

:58:55.:58:57.

political stories of the day.

:58:58.:59:01.

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