09/05/2014 Daily Politics


09/05/2014

Andrew Neil is joined by columnists Owen Jones and James Delingpole to discuss the latest political news.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to The Daily Politics.

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MPs have sharply criticised plans to allow Her Majesty's Revenue

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and Customs to recover money directly from people's bank accounts

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to pay tax bills. The Commons Treasury Committee says

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it is very concerned because tax officials have

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a history of making mistakes. Last time round,

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the BNP were the talk of the town. This time they look like they are

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heading for electoral oblivion. We will be talking to Nick Griffin.

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Is this Labour's worst party election broadcast?

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It has divided the membership. Tune in for analysis of the

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"UNcredible shrinking man". And we will be launching

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The Daily Politics political wheel. Have I Got News For You,

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eat your heart out. Public service broadcasting at its

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finest. All that in the next hour.

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With us for the duration, two shy retiring types who do not

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know what they think. Champion of the working class,

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keen environmentalist, strident feminist, James Delingpole.

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And libertarian, climate change sceptic, Owen Jones.

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I may have got at the wrong way round, but you get the general...

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Sold out already. Have not even started and they are off!

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climate change sceptic, Owen Jones. First, a taxing issue.

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In the budget in March, told the George Osborne handed

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officials, some would say, draconian new powers to seize unpaid

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taxes from the private bank accounts of thousands of ordinary people.

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It was not commented on too much at the time.

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of thousands of ordinary people. Today MPs have raised

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the alarm. They fear officials at

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Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs could get their sums wrong and raid

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the accounts of innocent people. And unsuspecting wives or husbands

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could lose out because of an errant spouse.

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Here is Mr Osborne announcing the policy in the House of Commons.

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Here is Mr Osborne announcing the policy Public tolerance for

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those who do not pay their fair share of apres to long ago. But we

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had to wait for this government and there was proper action --

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evaporated long ago. Today we go further. I am increasing the budget

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to tackle noncompliance. We will block transfers of profits between

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companies within groups to avoid tax. We will increase the recovery

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of debt for those of sufficient earnings. We will give HMRC powers

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to collect from bank accounts like most other Western countries. That

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was the bit at the end, people who had refused to pay tax, the

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was the bit at the end, people who Government could go into their bank

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accounts. In thes have said Government could go into their bank

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make a mistake. Let me start with the principle. If you have not paid

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your tax and you have been asked to repeatedly, is it right in principle

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your tax and you have been asked to HMRC should be able to go into your

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bank account? No. Tax avoidance is worth ?25

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bank account? No. Tax avoidance is this lack of...

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bank account? No. Tax avoidance is has a long track record of making

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mistakes. has a long track record of making

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and balances, there is huge scope has a long track record of making

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with people struggling and taking money away when they are already

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struggling. We need to tackle the fact HMRC is not properly resourced.

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We need to talk about the revolving door between the big four

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accountancy firms who draw up tax laws and go to their clients and

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tell them how to avoid them. The man who used to be head of HMIC is now

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working for Deloitte. The likes of Amazon and global chilly Google do

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not pay their taxes. -- and Google. The government needs an anti-tax

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avoidance bill. It is an illiberal measure. I am liking Owen Jones

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more. I think that this is measure. I am liking Owen Jones

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Osborne trying to outflank Labour on big government vindictiveness. I

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commend a piece big government vindictiveness. I

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written by a man at the Adam Smith Institute today. There is

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written by a man at the Adam Smith principle going back 800 years to

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the principle going back 800 years to

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cannot take things from you without common consent. It has got to go

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cannot take things from you without account and get the money out

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regardless, particularly given that a lot of the people who are

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reluctant to pay their taxes to HMRC, it may be for good reasons.

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Maybe their accountants have advised them that they have grounds and it

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should be decided by the courts, not by HMRC. It would go in front of the

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tax commissioners. It would go through due process. This is a

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slippery slope. We will see a lot of this in the coming years,

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governments trying to confiscate money by whatever means possible. I

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am going to agree with James Delingpole again. Help me! There is

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a problem of due process. HMRC are trying to sell the personal details

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of millions of taxpayers at the moment. There is a petition to try

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to stop it. We need the clamp-down on tax avoidance. Let us have due

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process to confiscate money where people are refusing to pay tax. They

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have to pay tax. Of course. But it is the between nature of what is

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proposed. No one objects to people paying the taxes. We need far more

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action on that. Let me move on before they start cuddling each

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other in this outbreak of consensus here.

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the policy in the House of Commons. Now, is this the worst party

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political broadcast ever? No, of course it's not.

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We have seen an awful lot of election broadcasts here at

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The Daily Politics. Let me tell you,

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the bar is not high. But Labour's latest film is

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certainly proving controversial. Let's take a look.

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This is the story of Nick Clegg, a man entrusted by a nation to act

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upon the policies he proposed. But he soon became the UNcredible

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shrinking man. He desperately tried to impress his new friends. He

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noticed something most peculiar. Everything he stood for began to

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shrink. Tax cuts. For millionaires. I think we should spare a thought

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for the wealthy. I have a friend who was down to his last two yachts. Mr

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Cameron! Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has shrunk. He has actually

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shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt him. Leave this to me.

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Don't worry. I have an important job for you. Great. I would like you to

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look after Socks. David! We are now joined by the Lib Dem peer Olly

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Grender. How did it go down at Lib Dem headquarters? Not very well. As

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you can imagine. I think it is furious that we have got this moment

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about a European election and they've vertical vote. I think it is

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critical. -- a critical vote. Here what we have is an attack. The pea

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soup of core vote rather than extended argument -- the pursuit.

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You do get knock-about in politics. You have to roll with that. Some may

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find a surprise in that Labour would dedicate a full broadcast to

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attacking Nick Clegg. They are there so we do not have the kind of

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advertising you see in the US. It is for a good reason. They are free.

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But there is an expectation you slightly lay out your stall. I did

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not see that here. Douglas Alexander who I think is one of the people

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running the Labour campaign for 2015, he said, we expect a campaign

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of fear and smear from the Conservatives. What was that? This

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is the problem. They will have everything thrown at them by the

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Conservatives and Lynton Crosby. They will be able to point to this

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video. What is depressing and I wrote about it yesterday... I read

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about it in the Guardian. It should be offering a message of hope. It

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does mean taking on the record of the Lib Dems, but you have to at

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least balance it out with an alternative vision. How are you

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doing with the housing crisis, falling living standards? Tony Benn

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used to say it is about the issue is not the personalities. There was a

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lack of that in the video. This is an attack. A British version of an

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American-style attack ad at the kind that was done on Mitt Romney. Do

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they work? I thought it was funny. I like it for a number of reasons. I

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love the line about, can we hunt him? The character playing David

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Cameron was brilliant. It was a pastiche of the Harry Enfield

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sketch, woman, know your place. I also like it because it is making

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politics interesting. This is a class war attack. It is presenting

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the Conservatives as toffs who do not care, do not know what NHS

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stands for. It is absurd even how much David Cameron bangs on about

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our NHS. And how much he used it personally. This is all to the good.

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We on the right see the enemy plane in view. The Labour Party have gone

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very hard left. Come on! By supporting George Osborne was not

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spending plans -- George Osborne's spending plans? You quite like

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American-style politics where it is dirty and mean and it is about

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personalities. I think people in this country do not want it. They

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want it about the issues and politics. The one thing that maybe

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they need to start including if there is going to be an attack like

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this is Ed Miliband saying, I have seen this broadcast and I approved

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it. It would be embarrassing to ask Ed Miliband... The public purse has

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paid quite a lot of money to Ed Miliband over recent years to

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develop policies for his party. I would like to know where they are.

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An important point is about who has endorsed it. We have tried to get

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Labour people to come on and defended but they have not done it.

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I have Douglas Alexander on the programme on the Sunday Politics

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this Sunday at 11am. He tweeted it. He has to defend it. It is his

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campaign. He suggested it was more him. What do you make about James's

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point about the class war aspect of this? I am not interested in

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people's backgrounds. The problem in politics generally is that it is an

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representative. Looking at the whole parliament, there are a lack of

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working-class people. The Tories are worse but it is not great in the Lib

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Dems. There are no ethnic minority members of the Liberal Democrats.

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Not many women. Labour have a problem as well. Talk about policies

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about tax justice and making people pay taxes and income and

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distributing wealth and power. I do not think personal pop shots work. I

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do not believe in it either. I do not like this game, this divisive

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approach to society where we have to say the up against... It not about

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that. That is what the video was saying. I do not like the video. I

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said to Hazel blears before the election, why didn't they deal with

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the will social housing waiting list question what she said that no one

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was interested in housing. What that says to me is that you do not have

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people on the lists in selected for parliament, it is less likely to be

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addressed. It is hard to come from Salford and said that there is no

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interest in housing. The Lib Dems came back with a reply to this. It

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is your own attack advert. Let us have a look at this.

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No expense spared! A little YouTube number. The point you are trying to

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make is that on the European issues, Mr Miliband. At. Attacking

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Nick Clegg is a curious stance. Surely they want to hold on to the

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leftish Lib Dem voters who have moved to Labour. Someone said this

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week that there are few messages that are appealing to the south of

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England. This demonstrates that. I want to put something else up on the

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screen. This is another Labour advert. There it is. It is about Mr

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Clegg and Mr Cameron who put ?450 extra VAT on your shopping bill.

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Spot the deliberate mistake. They think there is VAT on food. Almost

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every item does not have VAT X macro that is unfortunate. That is fairly

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recent. You have to be fairly out of touch to not know that. The Lib Dems

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campaign on stopping the VAT bombshell. I think it captures

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perfectly the lamer choose of the Lib Dems generally. -- the lameness.

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I love how it completely damns the Lib Dems. The best shot they have is

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that they are saying, we are the only party that takes the UKIP

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menace seriously. Defining yourself against the most popular would-be

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MP... If only he had put himself before the electorate. Good luck to

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any party who defends himself. Or who is in favour of Europe. Give

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Owen a call for advice on any posters will stop it is quite

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remarkable, but anyway. Now for the latest in our series

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of political thinkers. Today it's the turn of

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Peter Kropotkin. Giles went to meet his champion, Tom

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Hogkinson of the Idler magazine. I will make a net that most people

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think they know what an anarchist is and would not expect to find out

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about one at the Royal geographical Society in London. I'm here in

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Kensington to meet the editor of the Idler magazine. He thinks he can

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tell us how to live our lives better. How are you? Why have I come

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to the Royal geographic Society to find out about an anarchist?

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Kropotkin was a fascinating character. In his 20s he became an

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Explorer. He did trips across the mountains of Siberia which he wrote

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up in his learn it journals and he created fantastic and beautiful maps

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which are still in use today. Later in life, he became the foremost

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proponent of anarchism as a social theory. Why'd you like him so much?

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I was researching a book which was trying to find out how we can inject

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more freedom in to our everyday lives. I wrote a populist book about

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it. The first half of his book is about cooperation between animals

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and then it is about human beings, and is full of ideas about how we

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can improve our relationships and take control of our lives. If you

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think this is a funny place to find an anarchist philosopher, let me

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show you where he lived when he lived in England. Let do that will.

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When you said let's come and see where he lives, I did not think we

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would end up in suburban Bromley. There is a blue plaque. What is his

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theory of anarchism? He is against authority in whatever form it might

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exist will stop he is against the tyrannical power of the state which

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forces citizens to do things they do not want to do. He is against big

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business because companies force their employees to do things they do

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not want to do. State and big corporations take away our

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individual freedoms. We have become used to anarchist meaning Moloch off

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cocktails and direct action. This theorist says Kropotkin was a

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likeable man, worthy of respect. What people liked about Kropotkin

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was that he practised what he preached. He lived the kind of life

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he thought anarchists and mole people should live. -- moral people.

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I could not take you to Russia but there is a Russian restaurant in

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London that will do. The Russia we are talking about was writing in the

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late 19th century. Is it relevant? It is strikingly relevant because a

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lot of the problems our experience today. We complain about not

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enjoying our work and being stuck in a boring job, and people want to

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escape from it. The complain about a government that we think has become

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too big and controlling. His idea, really, was to take responsibility

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and this is something we can do today. We can take power back. It

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could be something like growing your own vegetables or organising a

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cricket match with the neighbours will stop or making your own clothes

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and mending them stop these creative act are the ideas we need to bring

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back into our lives today. It is not just enjoying yourselves, it is

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because he wants a better society. He thinks that is better for

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everybody. Excellent! They do get around, don't they?

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And the Editor of the Idler magazine Tom Hodgkinson is here.

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Did he have much influence at the time was to mark --? Socialism was

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influenced by Kropotkin's ideas. He called him a great White Christ

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coming from Russia. He was a big influence. Did that influence have

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any practical effect or did it go with his departure? It had the

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practical effect of affecting wild political philosophy. Idler did not

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call it anarchism will stop at his essay was read by political thinkers

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and it would have influenced people like Orwell and the anarchists in

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Spain. Would it have worked? It has worked briefly in little moments.

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One thing that Kropotkin liked was the medieval citystate system, and

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this is before we had nations, and before we had big governments. Like

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Venice and Florence, and London now! Yet! He loved the idea that a new

:23:17.:23:23.

kind of radical bourgeois culture was coming out of the countryside,

:23:24.:23:29.

removing itself from nobles, building their own cities, and

:23:30.:23:32.

governing themselves. Self-government communes. Up and

:23:33.:23:41.

down the river, these cities sprung up in the 11th and 12 century. In

:23:42.:23:51.

the 15th century, the rise of the nation occurred and when governments

:23:52.:23:55.

get out of hand, Hitler and Stalin at here. Is there a big difference

:23:56.:23:59.

between anarchism and libertarianism? This guy sounds like

:24:00.:24:08.

my kind of man. He does not like big government or corporations those are

:24:09.:24:12.

the big problems in our society. Where would he give from a

:24:13.:24:18.

libertarian like me? I am not sure how libertarian you are but I think

:24:19.:24:27.

one of the problems with libertarianism... Take for example

:24:28.:24:32.

the silicon valley libertarianism, the people that run Facebook, they

:24:33.:24:38.

have an extreme version of it, and they do not want any control on

:24:39.:24:41.

their behaviour. That can lead to immoral behaviour, especially with

:24:42.:24:46.

new industry like the Internet which needs regulation. There can be a

:24:47.:24:50.

role for the government to hold back from the excesses of that kind of

:24:51.:24:58.

commercial freedom. He emphasises mutual aid and how people can help

:24:59.:25:04.

each other. That is what I like about Kropotkin, he is optimistic

:25:05.:25:10.

and warm, and agrees that we are not all selfish and out for each other.

:25:11.:25:19.

He has a sense that, actually, we are social animals, and we depend on

:25:20.:25:22.

each other, and you can build a society together and work together

:25:23.:25:27.

collectively, but without the tyranny of the state. That is nice.

:25:28.:25:32.

I think one day in the future, centuries from now, I think it is

:25:33.:25:35.

depressing that we will all be languishing under a state, under

:25:36.:25:40.

authority where we cannot trust each other and we have to be protected

:25:41.:25:44.

from each other. We have gross inequalities between wealth and

:25:45.:25:47.

power, and while I do not agree it is a practical blueprint, it is a

:25:48.:25:57.

nice thought. My dream libertarian age the Victorian age -- is the

:25:58.:26:08.

Victorian age. There was a fine tradition of philanthropy, the

:26:09.:26:15.

government was much smaller, the economy was driving. What was the

:26:16.:26:18.

life expectancy in the Victorian age? -- thriving. That is not true,

:26:19.:26:33.

actually! There was a lot of good stuff in the Victorian age but we

:26:34.:26:37.

have to look at the facts, and the fact was that it was the government

:26:38.:26:42.

who introduced things like the ten hour working day. In the early 1800,

:26:43.:26:49.

women and children were literally dying because they were working so

:26:50.:26:56.

much. It was unregulated, the labour market. The government did do some

:26:57.:27:03.

good there. Employers want staff to die on the job, they think, but they

:27:04.:27:09.

do not. You find that business has an interest in looking after

:27:10.:27:12.

employers will stop the great myth of the Left is that the government

:27:13.:27:16.

does not have to step in on time. No, no! It was Lord Shaftesbury who

:27:17.:27:22.

introduced limitations on the working day. Fair enough. I am not

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saying there is no room for the government but the work of

:27:28.:27:32.

catalysts... We live in a society where most people in poverty are in

:27:33.:27:37.

work and the tax payer is subsidising poverty. Instead of big

:27:38.:27:43.

government subsidising those employers, let's have a wage that

:27:44.:27:49.

reduces the burden on the tax payer. It is the same with housing. We

:27:50.:27:54.

subsidised private landlords, we subsidised companies, big

:27:55.:27:59.

corporations, industry, education. So, let's have a society where we do

:28:00.:28:04.

not have that. What-macro hold that bought because we have to move on

:28:05.:28:05.

and we may cover some of that. Now, talking of political thinkers,

:28:06.:28:09.

we've got two quite large ones So we thought we'd play

:28:10.:28:12.

Political Roulette. A sort of poor man's

:28:13.:28:23.

"Have I Got News For You" device. Yes, we have a series of hot topics

:28:24.:28:26.

on the Daily Politics wheel. And we want you to discuss

:28:27.:28:31.

as many of them as we can. One of you press that button to get

:28:32.:28:35.

it spinning and press it again when you want it to stop! Press the

:28:36.:28:53.

button. This is a smooth operation! As you can see, we are new to this

:28:54.:28:58.

and have I got news for you is not in any danger. Press the button,

:28:59.:29:08.

started spinning. Press it again. The economy. I will say to you that

:29:09.:29:16.

living standards are rising, unemployment is falling. The Tories

:29:17.:29:22.

said they would pay off the debt, but they have added more debt. They

:29:23.:29:25.

said it would wipe out the deficit but they will be lucky to get

:29:26.:29:29.

through half. As for growth, the worst economic recovery since, not

:29:30.:29:37.

the great depression, but the longest recovery since the Victorian

:29:38.:29:44.

age. The longest fall in living standards since Victoria sat on the

:29:45.:29:51.

throne. People will be poorer than they were in 2015 than they were in

:29:52.:29:58.

2010. Despite having written that things are going to get better, and

:29:59.:30:06.

this generation has -- never had it so good, I would have to concede.

:30:07.:30:10.

This is a feeble recovery and it is driven by quantitive easing, which

:30:11.:30:16.

is creating this room. This enables the rich get richer. The housing

:30:17.:30:21.

bubble. A housing bubble, I do not think it is a real recovery, and I

:30:22.:30:26.

worry that the worst is yet to come and we are going to have something

:30:27.:30:32.

horrible to happen. Nevertheless, it is a vindication of having not

:30:33.:30:44.

joined the euro. They cheated! I wanted to get climate change will

:30:45.:30:49.

stop I can happily talk about UKIP. It is very exciting. Some polls seem

:30:50.:30:55.

to be suggesting they are almost 40%. Question Time... Namely poll.

:30:56.:31:18.

-- named the poll. James Delingpole! It was dominated by Nigel Farage.

:31:19.:31:24.

The audience was all over him. They thought he was fantastic. He is

:31:25.:31:30.

different. Will they come first in the European elections? Yes. And

:31:31.:31:36.

other public schoolboy who worked in the City. He trades on the

:31:37.:31:42.

antiestablishment. That is the reality of it. The problem with UKIP

:31:43.:31:49.

is they are deflecting people's anger at real problems. 5 million

:31:50.:31:54.

people on social housing waiting lists, not because of immigrants,

:31:55.:31:59.

but because of the Government not building housing. We have a lack of

:32:00.:32:04.

skilled jobs, not because of immigrants, but because successive

:32:05.:32:09.

governments... Why are they doing so well? The polls of UKIP motors, very

:32:10.:32:16.

different opinions than James Delingpole. They want to

:32:17.:32:22.

renationalise energy, rail, they want to tax the rich. They are seen

:32:23.:32:30.

as up yours, immigration is the big issue driving it. Your turn. Press

:32:31.:32:43.

it again. Cameron. Where do I start? Give me that. Do it again. Climate

:32:44.:33:01.

change. I am surrounded by two powerful believers in the consensus.

:33:02.:33:07.

We have seen a fascinating report, the... The IPCC report. In a sense,

:33:08.:33:13.

it makes for depressing reading because if we do not deal with the

:33:14.:33:17.

threat of climate change, we will have more extreme weather, drought,

:33:18.:33:24.

floods, so one. The key point is it is an opportunity for jobs and for

:33:25.:33:29.

growth. If we in Britain have a mass insulation programme of homes and

:33:30.:33:33.

businesses, good for fuel poverty and the environment. We lost

:33:34.:33:38.

industries, we do not want to send people down the mines, like Germany,

:33:39.:33:44.

we could have hundreds of thousands of renewable energy jobs. Whilst it

:33:45.:33:47.

might look bleak, great opportunity for jobs and the economy. We should

:33:48.:33:53.

get to work on it. I am a great believer in climate change will stop

:33:54.:33:56.

it has been changing for the last 4.5 billion worth years -- 4.5

:33:57.:34:04.

billion years. There have been other warming periods where people were

:34:05.:34:06.

billion years. There have been other not flying around in jets or

:34:07.:34:11.

billion years. There have been other in four x fours. In its own way, the

:34:12.:34:14.

climate was capable of changing. We are just coming out of the Little

:34:15.:34:22.

ice age which ended in 1850. In the recent warming and the warming the

:34:23.:34:26.

IPCC has concentrated on, from the mid to early 70s, man has played no

:34:27.:34:33.

role in that? It has played a tiny role. What percentage? Less than

:34:34.:34:45.

half the warming. That is not tiny. In the last 150 years, global

:34:46.:34:49.

half the warming. That is not tiny. temperatures have risen by 0.8

:34:50.:34:54.

half the warming. That is not tiny. degrees. Do you think the scientific

:34:55.:34:56.

consensus is wrong degrees. Do you think the scientific

:34:57.:35:01.

in terms of drought and extreme weather patterns? I love this appeal

:35:02.:35:08.

to authority. Scientists know what they are talking about.

:35:09.:35:12.

to authority. Scientists know what Ph.D. In it. Again, the appeal to

:35:13.:35:17.

authority. A lot of the scientists are actually green activists. They

:35:18.:35:25.

work for Greenpeace, the WWF. Many are actually green activists. They

:35:26.:35:31.

respected scientists dispute the claims of the IPC 's. They said this

:35:32.:35:39.

about HIV and AIDS. It is also an economic question. I am making a

:35:40.:35:48.

point. Even if you accept that the climate is warming slightly, you

:35:49.:35:51.

have to ask yourself, are the measures being taken to deal with

:35:52.:35:55.

what so far seems to be a slight problem? Are they causing more harm

:35:56.:36:00.

than good? I would argue that they are.

:36:01.:36:03.

than good? I would argue that they you said. 50% of the climate

:36:04.:36:10.

change... It is less than that. What is your explanation for the pause in

:36:11.:36:18.

temperature rises is your explanation for the pause in

:36:19.:36:21.

years? It is climate change. is your explanation for the pause in

:36:22.:36:22.

is the long view. is your explanation for the pause in

:36:23.:36:29.

projections over the coming years. is your explanation for the pause in

:36:30.:36:33.

The computers never predicted this pause. Again, if you look at the

:36:34.:36:39.

consensus over the last few years, pause. Again, if you look at the

:36:40.:36:43.

what we see at the moment is that we are ready seeing the impact of

:36:44.:36:48.

climate change with extreme weather events, and impact particularly in

:36:49.:36:51.

many third World countries, an increase in flooding, things like

:36:52.:36:56.

hurricane 's. We are de seeing the impact. It is not something to be

:36:57.:37:00.

frightened about. Do you accept these extreme weather events must

:37:01.:37:04.

have something to do with climate change? Extreme weather events go on

:37:05.:37:10.

in the world and there will be tomorrow. Extreme weather happens

:37:11.:37:13.

all of the time. People like Owen love to fetishise the IPCC. The men

:37:14.:37:23.

in the white lab coats. It has become like a religion and these are

:37:24.:37:27.

the high priests. The economic damage is worrying. We will leave it

:37:28.:37:33.

there. I enjoy that. Now, this is the season

:37:34.:37:40.

of election launches and today it's the turn of the Trade

:37:41.:37:43.

Union and Socialist Coalition. They have more than 500 candidates

:37:44.:37:46.

standing in the local elections. Let's take a look at one

:37:47.:37:48.

of their election videos. Cuts! No! I am standing for TUSC in

:37:49.:37:59.

Tower Hamlets. Why should we have to pay for the mistakes of the bankers?

:38:00.:38:06.

I am standing to be a TUSC candidate in the Lewisham are. I am at the

:38:07.:38:14.

conference for the simple reason I believe this is the start of

:38:15.:38:18.

something monumental. I believe this is the start of a working people

:38:19.:38:24.

getting political, active and also having an alternative voice to

:38:25.:38:31.

Labour when Labour decide one central to sever links with the

:38:32.:38:36.

trade unions. We are joined by the national chair of the Trade Union

:38:37.:38:39.

and Socialist Coalition. It is good to have a moderate on the programme

:38:40.:38:47.

at last! I take it from that video that the party's concentration is

:38:48.:38:54.

overwhelmingly on what you think of the cuts and austerity. That is

:38:55.:39:00.

right. Three quarters of our candidates are active trade

:39:01.:39:03.

unionists and very senior people. We have also got a lot of anti-bedroom

:39:04.:39:11.

tax campaigners, anti-fracking campaigners, anti-cuts campaigners.

:39:12.:39:16.

We have some people who have already made history. We have Lord Dixon

:39:17.:39:20.

whose Heckel started the process that led to the new Hillsborough

:39:21.:39:28.

inquest. We are tackling austerity and cuts. You are contesting 559

:39:29.:39:37.

seats in 87 cities. What would be a good result for you? I will give you

:39:38.:39:42.

the same answer as when you asked before. We have only been going for

:39:43.:39:49.

years. Do you have any councils at the moment? I have just come from a

:39:50.:39:53.

press conference where a councillor who was expelled by the Labour Party

:39:54.:39:57.

a few months ago for voting against the closure of a swimming pool in

:39:58.:40:03.

his ward, he was sat by me at the press conference because he is

:40:04.:40:05.

standing for us for re-election. Like I said before, when you are

:40:06.:40:09.

starting from scratch and you have not got big money behind you, let us

:40:10.:40:14.

remember, the unions has given Labour third of a third of ?1

:40:15.:40:18.

billion and they have less influence now than the poor in the early part

:40:19.:40:23.

of the 19th century. It is visibility we are after to try to

:40:24.:40:27.

get the alternative message out. You get some backing from the RMT. Yes.

:40:28.:40:37.

Will that continue now that Bob Crow has passed away? His passing was a

:40:38.:40:42.

tremendous shock. He was a driving force. But the RMT is a democratic

:40:43.:40:48.

union and has twice had an annual conference of delegates around the

:40:49.:40:52.

country and the conference has decided to back the coalition and

:40:53.:40:55.

its representatives are drawn from the whole executives. Owen Jones's

:40:56.:41:04.

father... I remember his dad very well. What can you say to him to get

:41:05.:41:13.

him to join you? He has made excellent points. Our difference

:41:14.:41:17.

really is that we have already reached a conclusion like the

:41:18.:41:20.

counsellor I have been speaking about in Southampton. You have two

:41:21.:41:26.

chances daily macro choices in the Labour Party. You vote for cuts or

:41:27.:41:30.

if you vote against them like in Hull and other places, Labour is

:41:31.:41:37.

expelling councillors. I want to be on their side. He won spectator

:41:38.:41:45.

magazine's backbencher of the year. He is a very principled man and lots

:41:46.:41:50.

of people involved... Why are you not with him? My dad was a militant.

:41:51.:41:57.

My great uncle, he was on the football team of the Independent

:41:58.:42:00.

Labour Party in the 1930s. They left the Labour Party and they dwindled

:42:01.:42:07.

into insignificance. That has been the story of every attempt to set up

:42:08.:42:12.

a new left party, unafraid. The question I put two people setting up

:42:13.:42:17.

a left party is that why given every single other attempt having failed

:42:18.:42:25.

why will it be different? The early period is hard. The leader of the

:42:26.:42:31.

first party up in Scotland... UKIP when they stood initially got 1.7%.

:42:32.:42:42.

We have been averaging 5%, 6%, in council elections. I am confident

:42:43.:42:45.

that given the choice, Labour, Tories, Liberal Democrats, there is

:42:46.:42:52.

an alternative. I do not disagree that it is a hard job. We will have

:42:53.:42:55.

to leave it there. of their election videos.

:42:56.:43:01.

Andrew Breitbart, not a household name here, but

:43:02.:43:04.

across the pond, he was renowned, or notorious, depending on which side

:43:05.:43:09.

of the political spectrum use it. A leading right-wing blogger,

:43:10.:43:12.

he was at the forefront of digital media, breaking high-profile stories

:43:13.:43:14.

of political scandal and helping to develop the Huffington Post.

:43:15.:43:19.

Before his early death two years ago, he established the Breitbart

:43:20.:43:21.

news website which has now just launched in

:43:22.:43:27.

the UK, featuring James Delingpole. Giles Dilnot paid them

:43:28.:43:31.

a visit to have a look at the latest in online-only journalism.

:43:32.:43:37.

It started life as Boris wants said as wiff-waff, became ping-pong and

:43:38.:43:43.

officially table tennis. The back and forth his political news. The

:43:44.:43:51.

quirky. Abu Hamza tucks into a doughnut. Breibart London may be

:43:52.:44:00.

coming from the editor's flat, but it is another voice online doing

:44:01.:44:04.

serious business in what rather dated Lee is referred to as the

:44:05.:44:09.

blogosphere. It is not just filing copy, Breibart is batting with a

:44:10.:44:17.

spin. We do not hide it. It is very obvious. It should be obvious when

:44:18.:44:22.

you hit the front page. If not, we are doing a bad job. But it is

:44:23.:44:26.

fact. We are serving a market which is fed up of buying newspapers and

:44:27.:44:30.

getting press releases. Traditional media have spent the last year aping

:44:31.:44:36.

online political news because they are serious competition. Looking at

:44:37.:44:39.

the national newspapers, they are covering stories from three or four

:44:40.:44:44.

days ago. What is the hold-up? They have to deal

:44:45.:44:50.

days ago. What is the hold-up? They pages. We do not have that. The

:44:51.:44:56.

agility is at the offices of Vice.com where the freedom of the

:44:57.:45:00.

internet and its ability not to be bound to old formats or loyalties is

:45:01.:45:06.

tricky for politicians. One of the freedoms we have that other

:45:07.:45:09.

organisations we have that have existed for longer and in a more

:45:10.:45:13.

conservative space, we do not necessarily have to behave in the

:45:14.:45:20.

same manner as the BBC or the Times. Perhaps it would be more risky for

:45:21.:45:25.

politicians to come and get into bed with this, as it were. Political

:45:26.:45:31.

Scrapbook sees politics as better for the online challenge. The reason

:45:32.:45:37.

politicians do not like the blog is clear is that it has democratised

:45:38.:45:42.

access to information -- the blogosphere. There

:45:43.:45:45.

access to information -- the an open secret in Westminster a

:45:46.:45:47.

couple of years ago that 250 people knew about. The difference now is

:45:48.:45:55.

lid on that information. It has opened it up to anybody with an

:45:56.:46:00.

internet connection. They all agree that nobody involved knows how big

:46:01.:46:02.

internet connection. They all agree online media is going to be except

:46:03.:46:04.

that it is not a fad. If online media is going to be except

:46:05.:46:07.

not sure, you can bet that online media is going to be except

:46:08.:46:11.

politicians and old media do not have a clue. James you are involved

:46:12.:46:21.

with this. It has become fundamentally uninspiring,

:46:22.:46:25.

with this. It has become going to shake things up?

:46:26.:46:29.

with this. It has become long time. It is the greatest

:46:30.:46:35.

with this. It has become invention of the printing press.

:46:36.:46:37.

Information is You start from a low base in the UK,

:46:38.:46:42.

don't you? You start from a low base in the UK,

:46:43.:46:48.

expectations. This is exciting. Old media is dying on its feet and new

:46:49.:46:55.

media is a new thing. One of the reasons is that it can get onto

:46:56.:46:59.

stories more quickly and also, it also circumvents the way that the

:47:00.:47:09.

Left has occupied the universities, the schools, the newspapers. Right

:47:10.:47:13.

wingers can get round that. I would give you one example. Climate gate,

:47:14.:47:20.

that story would not have broken without the Internet. Most of the

:47:21.:47:27.

information about that is on the Internet. In this country, is there

:47:28.:47:34.

a left wing equivalent of Breitbart? You saw Political Scrapbook which is

:47:35.:47:47.

an equivalent. The problem is this idea that the traditional media is

:47:48.:47:53.

dominated by the left. It does not resonate with me. It depends on the

:47:54.:47:59.

definition of left. There are lots of left blog is, certainly. If you

:48:00.:48:05.

look at the Guardian, that gets 100 million hit. -- hits. That gives a

:48:06.:48:15.

platform to a variety of voices on the left, and the right as well stop

:48:16.:48:19.

rather than stick with the dead tree press... The Guardian is the

:48:20.:48:26.

second-biggest website in the world! Rather than sticking with the dead

:48:27.:48:32.

tree press, why do you not do a British Breitbart of the left? I

:48:33.:48:40.

will tell you why I do not agree. One contributed to Breitbart in the

:48:41.:48:45.

USA, he treated that if there is another terrorism attack in the USA,

:48:46.:48:50.

all Muslims should be slaughtered in the street. I do not think that

:48:51.:48:54.

style of politics, that extreme it is, is helpful. -- extremism. The

:48:55.:49:02.

danger of Breitbart is that it becomes the lowest common to. You

:49:03.:49:09.

said that every time you speak, 1000 new Socialists are born. Is that

:49:10.:49:16.

right? Did that come out of my mouth? Ultimately, the facts of life

:49:17.:49:26.

are of Conservative, and this is what the Internet shows. People have

:49:27.:49:32.

an appetite for ideas, and not just... Sorry, we are going to have

:49:33.:49:42.

to move on. The success of the BNP, the British National party, in the

:49:43.:49:45.

last election. They won two seats in the North of England. Since then,

:49:46.:49:49.

their fortunes have declined and they looked to be cruising for a

:49:50.:49:54.

bruising this time around. In a moment, we will talk to the party

:49:55.:49:58.

leader, Nick Griffin. He was a flavour of their latest campaign

:49:59.:50:04.

video. Can I make something clear to you? UKIP is not against

:50:05.:50:08.

immigration. We welcome immigration and want immigration.

:50:09.:50:24.

# Tell them where to go by voting BNP.

:50:25.:50:30.

# That is it, that is all you are allowed to see. It has been

:50:31.:50:36.

censored. The powers that be say it is because we break off, rules. We

:50:37.:50:41.

think it is because the message of hope is out of kilter with the

:50:42.:50:49.

agenda of making British people a minority in this country. -- OFCOM.

:50:50.:50:58.

You are in terminal decline, aren't you? That video, which the BBC

:50:59.:51:08.

censored... Actually, it was OFCOM. No, it was OFCOM. It does not

:51:09.:51:14.

matter. It does. It has been seen by thousands of people. It is the most

:51:15.:51:22.

popular British political broadcast in history, it is gone by wilful

:51:23.:51:28.

Ain 2007, you've got 200,000 votes. After the local elections, you had

:51:29.:51:32.

55 councillors. You now have two, why did you lose your seats? You are

:51:33.:51:37.

doing it again. We are not down to two councillors. We have dozens in

:51:38.:51:42.

the North of England. Parish and town council is working hard for

:51:43.:51:46.

their community. We have not got the seats where people are paid for

:51:47.:51:49.

working as a councillor. When we stand in those, the Labour Party

:51:50.:51:54.

rolls out electoral fraud campaigns and the BBC covered it up. If it is

:51:55.:52:01.

our fault that you have lost most of your councillors, is it our fault

:52:02.:52:06.

that you got 55 in the first place? I did not say it was your fault, I

:52:07.:52:11.

said it was the BBC's fault for covering up electoral fraud. Who's

:52:12.:52:18.

fault is it that your membership has collapsed? Again, I would love to

:52:19.:52:26.

blame the BBC because if you do not pay or BBC licence, you put in

:52:27.:52:31.

prison. I cannot do that. How much is it to join the BMP? A full

:52:32.:52:40.

membership is ?90. Unemployed, ?60. You have lost almost 10,000 members

:52:41.:52:53.

in recent years. Our membership has gone down in recent years, so has

:52:54.:53:02.

other parties. The BBC should be talking about this issue. We have a

:53:03.:53:06.

system in Britain where people are sacked, fired and discriminated

:53:07.:53:09.

against because of their beliefs. That is a scandal. Are you to blame

:53:10.:53:15.

for the party's decline? My members do not think so. There are always

:53:16.:53:21.

people who fall out, who are sacked for some reason. That is politics. I

:53:22.:53:27.

was in charge of the party's electoral rise, I have seen it

:53:28.:53:30.

through the hard times, we were massively in debt, and we are now in

:53:31.:53:35.

the black. We will still be here in the future. You have fallen out with

:53:36.:53:40.

senior members, you have been declared bankrupt in January as

:53:41.:53:45.

well, is it not time to let someone else have a go? My members say that

:53:46.:53:49.

the legal debt which bankrupted me were rung up because the British

:53:50.:53:55.

government attacked the BNP with the equality commission, and I was right

:53:56.:54:01.

to defend that case, so my members do not care if I am bankrupt. A lot

:54:02.:54:05.

of people have come to me, ordinary people, and said, I am bankrupt,

:54:06.:54:12.

Nick, can you give me some advice? In recent years, you have tried to

:54:13.:54:15.

make the party seem more respectable. I have looked at your

:54:16.:54:20.

website and Signor manifesto. The top issue, you talk about austerity.

:54:21.:54:33.

-- your manifesto. You talk about adding the burger. Is that your top

:54:34.:54:44.

issue? -- banning the burka. In this country, there is a steady

:54:45.:54:52.

Islamisation, and the burka is a symbol of that. We make a point of

:54:53.:54:57.

resisting it for symbolic reasons and many people agree with me. Why

:54:58.:55:02.

are you still alerting and consorting with neo-Nazis? Such as?

:55:03.:55:11.

You spoke at an explicitly neo-Nazi press conference in January. No, it

:55:12.:55:17.

is not! The leader is in custody on suspicion of murder. No, he is not!

:55:18.:55:26.

That is utter rubbish. You asked me about Golding Dawn, and the leader

:55:27.:55:37.

is imprisoned. -- Golden Dawn. As for them being neo-Nazis, they are

:55:38.:55:45.

descended from the only people to resist Nazi occupation of Greece at

:55:46.:55:49.

the start of the Second World War, thereby saving Russia and the West

:55:50.:55:53.

from Nazi domination. I am not neo-Nazi. When we see Golden Dawn

:55:54.:56:00.

with Nazi insignia and giving Hitler salutes, they are not Nazis? If you

:56:01.:56:04.

studied the history, you would know that that salute was used by young

:56:05.:56:10.

Greeks who went off to fight and die when they were killing young

:56:11.:56:19.

fascists and Nazis. There is the German neo-Nazi group that you spoke

:56:20.:56:25.

at. They are not neo-Nazi. Being neo-Nazi is illegal in Germany and

:56:26.:56:31.

they would have been banned. What we need in the European Parliament is a

:56:32.:56:35.

proper radical national block so that there is a real voice against

:56:36.:56:38.

the criminal war mongering that is going on from everyone for all the

:56:39.:56:43.

other parties, including UKIP and the BBC, to get us into war is in

:56:44.:56:47.

Syria and the Ukraine which has nothing to do with Britain. We need

:56:48.:56:52.

to speak up against that. Are you being squeezed on the one side by

:56:53.:56:56.

UKIP, which speaks about issues you have mentioned, including

:56:57.:57:01.

immigration and membership of the EU, and on the other side, by the

:57:02.:57:08.

English Defence League, which has become better at street protests and

:57:09.:57:14.

thuggery than you. No! The English Defence League was a big thing two

:57:15.:57:23.

years ago, that it has gone. The demonstrations where we were calling

:57:24.:57:25.

for capital punishment to be introduced, there were only ten

:57:26.:57:30.

elderly skinheads there. Do you think it is a Zionist front

:57:31.:57:37.

organisation? No doubt at all. If you go online and look what lies

:57:38.:57:42.

behind the EDL, you will find all the facts. Is this not a hallmark of

:57:43.:57:52.

fascism when you are labelling people as Zionist? We are not being

:57:53.:57:59.

anti-Italian and to talk about the problems of Zionism, you are not

:58:00.:58:05.

being anti-Semitic. You asked about UKIP, perhaps we should touch on

:58:06.:58:08.

that. You get are squeezing everybody and because they managed

:58:09.:58:13.

to convince some people they have an anti-immigration policy, that could

:58:14.:58:18.

eat into our vote. Their anti-immigration policy is a net

:58:19.:58:21.

increase of 50,000 a year which would actually mean an increase of

:58:22.:58:26.

350 thousand Africans and Asians coming into Britain every year. As

:58:27.:58:30.

that message sinks in, people are taking to us. Our message is to stop

:58:31.:58:36.

all immigration. If you lose any peas, will you give up? No, we will

:58:37.:58:41.

carry on campaigning and we will be back. -- MEPs. That is it for today,

:58:42.:58:52.

I will be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics. It is a 11am. I

:58:53.:58:57.

will be joined by Douglas Alexander and Nigel Farage. The by.

:58:58.:59:01.

You've dug, you've sown, you've planted,

:59:02.:59:04.

you've watered, you've trimmed, you've nurtured.

:59:05.:59:07.

Look what you've grown with your patch of land.

:59:08.:59:09.

A massive thank you for sending in all your pictures, from BBC Two's...

:59:10.:59:14.

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