09/05/2014 Daily Politics


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to The Daily Politics.


MPs have sharply criticised plans to allow Her Majesty's Revenue


and Customs to recover money directly from people's bank accounts


to pay tax bills. The Commons Treasury Committee says


it is very concerned because tax officials have


a history of making mistakes. Last time round,


the BNP were the talk of the town. This time they look like they are


heading for electoral oblivion. We will be talking to Nick Griffin.


Is this Labour's worst party election broadcast?


It has divided the membership. Tune in for analysis of the


"UNcredible shrinking man". And we will be launching


The Daily Politics political wheel. Have I Got News For You,


eat your heart out. Public service broadcasting at its


finest. All that in the next hour.


With us for the duration, two shy retiring types who do not


know what they think. Champion of the working class,


keen environmentalist, strident feminist, James Delingpole.


And libertarian, climate change sceptic, Owen Jones.


I may have got at the wrong way round, but you get the general...


Sold out already. Have not even started and they are off!


climate change sceptic, Owen Jones. First, a taxing issue.


In the budget in March, told the George Osborne handed


officials, some would say, draconian new powers to seize unpaid


taxes from the private bank accounts of thousands of ordinary people.


It was not commented on too much at the time.


of thousands of ordinary people. Today MPs have raised


the alarm. They fear officials at


Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs could get their sums wrong and raid


the accounts of innocent people. And unsuspecting wives or husbands


could lose out because of an errant spouse.


Here is Mr Osborne announcing the policy in the House of Commons.


Here is Mr Osborne announcing the policy Public tolerance for


those who do not pay their fair share of apres to long ago. But we


had to wait for this government and there was proper action --


evaporated long ago. Today we go further. I am increasing the budget


to tackle noncompliance. We will block transfers of profits between


companies within groups to avoid tax. We will increase the recovery


of debt for those of sufficient earnings. We will give HMRC powers


to collect from bank accounts like most other Western countries. That


was the bit at the end, people who had refused to pay tax, the


was the bit at the end, people who Government could go into their bank


accounts. In thes have said Government could go into their bank


make a mistake. Let me start with the principle. If you have not paid


your tax and you have been asked to repeatedly, is it right in principle


your tax and you have been asked to HMRC should be able to go into your


bank account? No. Tax avoidance is worth ?25


bank account? No. Tax avoidance is this lack of...


bank account? No. Tax avoidance is has a long track record of making


mistakes. has a long track record of making


and balances, there is huge scope has a long track record of making


with people struggling and taking money away when they are already


struggling. We need to tackle the fact HMRC is not properly resourced.


We need to talk about the revolving door between the big four


accountancy firms who draw up tax laws and go to their clients and


tell them how to avoid them. The man who used to be head of HMIC is now


working for Deloitte. The likes of Amazon and global chilly Google do


not pay their taxes. -- and Google. The government needs an anti-tax


avoidance bill. It is an illiberal measure. I am liking Owen Jones


more. I think that this is measure. I am liking Owen Jones


Osborne trying to outflank Labour on big government vindictiveness. I


commend a piece big government vindictiveness. I


written by a man at the Adam Smith Institute today. There is


written by a man at the Adam Smith principle going back 800 years to


the principle going back 800 years to


cannot take things from you without common consent. It has got to go


cannot take things from you without account and get the money out


regardless, particularly given that a lot of the people who are


reluctant to pay their taxes to HMRC, it may be for good reasons.


Maybe their accountants have advised them that they have grounds and it


should be decided by the courts, not by HMRC. It would go in front of the


tax commissioners. It would go through due process. This is a


slippery slope. We will see a lot of this in the coming years,


governments trying to confiscate money by whatever means possible. I


am going to agree with James Delingpole again. Help me! There is


a problem of due process. HMRC are trying to sell the personal details


of millions of taxpayers at the moment. There is a petition to try


to stop it. We need the clamp-down on tax avoidance. Let us have due


process to confiscate money where people are refusing to pay tax. They


have to pay tax. Of course. But it is the between nature of what is


proposed. No one objects to people paying the taxes. We need far more


action on that. Let me move on before they start cuddling each


other in this outbreak of consensus here.


the policy in the House of Commons. Now, is this the worst party


political broadcast ever? No, of course it's not.


We have seen an awful lot of election broadcasts here at


The Daily Politics. Let me tell you,


the bar is not high. But Labour's latest film is


certainly proving controversial. Let's take a look.


This is the story of Nick Clegg, a man entrusted by a nation to act


upon the policies he proposed. But he soon became the UNcredible


shrinking man. He desperately tried to impress his new friends. He


noticed something most peculiar. Everything he stood for began to


shrink. Tax cuts. For millionaires. I think we should spare a thought


for the wealthy. I have a friend who was down to his last two yachts. Mr


Cameron! Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has shrunk. He has actually


shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt him. Leave this to me.


Don't worry. I have an important job for you. Great. I would like you to


look after Socks. David! We are now joined by the Lib Dem peer Olly


Grender. How did it go down at Lib Dem headquarters? Not very well. As


you can imagine. I think it is furious that we have got this moment


about a European election and they've vertical vote. I think it is


critical. -- a critical vote. Here what we have is an attack. The pea


soup of core vote rather than extended argument -- the pursuit.


You do get knock-about in politics. You have to roll with that. Some may


find a surprise in that Labour would dedicate a full broadcast to


attacking Nick Clegg. They are there so we do not have the kind of


advertising you see in the US. It is for a good reason. They are free.


But there is an expectation you slightly lay out your stall. I did


not see that here. Douglas Alexander who I think is one of the people


running the Labour campaign for 2015, he said, we expect a campaign


of fear and smear from the Conservatives. What was that? This


is the problem. They will have everything thrown at them by the


Conservatives and Lynton Crosby. They will be able to point to this


video. What is depressing and I wrote about it yesterday... I read


about it in the Guardian. It should be offering a message of hope. It


does mean taking on the record of the Lib Dems, but you have to at


least balance it out with an alternative vision. How are you


doing with the housing crisis, falling living standards? Tony Benn


used to say it is about the issue is not the personalities. There was a


lack of that in the video. This is an attack. A British version of an


American-style attack ad at the kind that was done on Mitt Romney. Do


they work? I thought it was funny. I like it for a number of reasons. I


love the line about, can we hunt him? The character playing David


Cameron was brilliant. It was a pastiche of the Harry Enfield


sketch, woman, know your place. I also like it because it is making


politics interesting. This is a class war attack. It is presenting


the Conservatives as toffs who do not care, do not know what NHS


stands for. It is absurd even how much David Cameron bangs on about


our NHS. And how much he used it personally. This is all to the good.


We on the right see the enemy plane in view. The Labour Party have gone


very hard left. Come on! By supporting George Osborne was not


spending plans -- George Osborne's spending plans? You quite like


American-style politics where it is dirty and mean and it is about


personalities. I think people in this country do not want it. They


want it about the issues and politics. The one thing that maybe


they need to start including if there is going to be an attack like


this is Ed Miliband saying, I have seen this broadcast and I approved


it. It would be embarrassing to ask Ed Miliband... The public purse has


paid quite a lot of money to Ed Miliband over recent years to


develop policies for his party. I would like to know where they are.


An important point is about who has endorsed it. We have tried to get


Labour people to come on and defended but they have not done it.


I have Douglas Alexander on the programme on the Sunday Politics


this Sunday at 11am. He tweeted it. He has to defend it. It is his


campaign. He suggested it was more him. What do you make about James's


point about the class war aspect of this? I am not interested in


people's backgrounds. The problem in politics generally is that it is an


representative. Looking at the whole parliament, there are a lack of


working-class people. The Tories are worse but it is not great in the Lib


Dems. There are no ethnic minority members of the Liberal Democrats.


Not many women. Labour have a problem as well. Talk about policies


about tax justice and making people pay taxes and income and


distributing wealth and power. I do not think personal pop shots work. I


do not believe in it either. I do not like this game, this divisive


approach to society where we have to say the up against... It not about


that. That is what the video was saying. I do not like the video. I


said to Hazel blears before the election, why didn't they deal with


the will social housing waiting list question what she said that no one


was interested in housing. What that says to me is that you do not have


people on the lists in selected for parliament, it is less likely to be


addressed. It is hard to come from Salford and said that there is no


interest in housing. The Lib Dems came back with a reply to this. It


is your own attack advert. Let us have a look at this.


No expense spared! A little YouTube number. The point you are trying to


make is that on the European issues, Mr Miliband. At. Attacking


Nick Clegg is a curious stance. Surely they want to hold on to the


leftish Lib Dem voters who have moved to Labour. Someone said this


week that there are few messages that are appealing to the south of


England. This demonstrates that. I want to put something else up on the


screen. This is another Labour advert. There it is. It is about Mr


Clegg and Mr Cameron who put ?450 extra VAT on your shopping bill.


Spot the deliberate mistake. They think there is VAT on food. Almost


every item does not have VAT X macro that is unfortunate. That is fairly


recent. You have to be fairly out of touch to not know that. The Lib Dems


campaign on stopping the VAT bombshell. I think it captures


perfectly the lamer choose of the Lib Dems generally. -- the lameness.


I love how it completely damns the Lib Dems. The best shot they have is


that they are saying, we are the only party that takes the UKIP


menace seriously. Defining yourself against the most popular would-be


MP... If only he had put himself before the electorate. Good luck to


any party who defends himself. Or who is in favour of Europe. Give


Owen a call for advice on any posters will stop it is quite


remarkable, but anyway. Now for the latest in our series


of political thinkers. Today it's the turn of


Peter Kropotkin. Giles went to meet his champion, Tom


Hogkinson of the Idler magazine. I will make a net that most people


think they know what an anarchist is and would not expect to find out


about one at the Royal geographical Society in London. I'm here in


Kensington to meet the editor of the Idler magazine. He thinks he can


tell us how to live our lives better. How are you? Why have I come


to the Royal geographic Society to find out about an anarchist?


Kropotkin was a fascinating character. In his 20s he became an


Explorer. He did trips across the mountains of Siberia which he wrote


up in his learn it journals and he created fantastic and beautiful maps


which are still in use today. Later in life, he became the foremost


proponent of anarchism as a social theory. Why'd you like him so much?


I was researching a book which was trying to find out how we can inject


more freedom in to our everyday lives. I wrote a populist book about


it. The first half of his book is about cooperation between animals


and then it is about human beings, and is full of ideas about how we


can improve our relationships and take control of our lives. If you


think this is a funny place to find an anarchist philosopher, let me


show you where he lived when he lived in England. Let do that will.


When you said let's come and see where he lives, I did not think we


would end up in suburban Bromley. There is a blue plaque. What is his


theory of anarchism? He is against authority in whatever form it might


exist will stop he is against the tyrannical power of the state which


forces citizens to do things they do not want to do. He is against big


business because companies force their employees to do things they do


not want to do. State and big corporations take away our


individual freedoms. We have become used to anarchist meaning Moloch off


cocktails and direct action. This theorist says Kropotkin was a


likeable man, worthy of respect. What people liked about Kropotkin


was that he practised what he preached. He lived the kind of life


he thought anarchists and mole people should live. -- moral people.


I could not take you to Russia but there is a Russian restaurant in


London that will do. The Russia we are talking about was writing in the


late 19th century. Is it relevant? It is strikingly relevant because a


lot of the problems our experience today. We complain about not


enjoying our work and being stuck in a boring job, and people want to


escape from it. The complain about a government that we think has become


too big and controlling. His idea, really, was to take responsibility


and this is something we can do today. We can take power back. It


could be something like growing your own vegetables or organising a


cricket match with the neighbours will stop or making your own clothes


and mending them stop these creative act are the ideas we need to bring


back into our lives today. It is not just enjoying yourselves, it is


because he wants a better society. He thinks that is better for


everybody. Excellent! They do get around, don't they?


And the Editor of the Idler magazine Tom Hodgkinson is here.


Did he have much influence at the time was to mark --? Socialism was


influenced by Kropotkin's ideas. He called him a great White Christ


coming from Russia. He was a big influence. Did that influence have


any practical effect or did it go with his departure? It had the


practical effect of affecting wild political philosophy. Idler did not


call it anarchism will stop at his essay was read by political thinkers


and it would have influenced people like Orwell and the anarchists in


Spain. Would it have worked? It has worked briefly in little moments.


One thing that Kropotkin liked was the medieval citystate system, and


this is before we had nations, and before we had big governments. Like


Venice and Florence, and London now! Yet! He loved the idea that a new


kind of radical bourgeois culture was coming out of the countryside,


removing itself from nobles, building their own cities, and


governing themselves. Self-government communes. Up and


down the river, these cities sprung up in the 11th and 12 century. In


the 15th century, the rise of the nation occurred and when governments


get out of hand, Hitler and Stalin at here. Is there a big difference


between anarchism and libertarianism? This guy sounds like


my kind of man. He does not like big government or corporations those are


the big problems in our society. Where would he give from a


libertarian like me? I am not sure how libertarian you are but I think


one of the problems with libertarianism... Take for example


the silicon valley libertarianism, the people that run Facebook, they


have an extreme version of it, and they do not want any control on


their behaviour. That can lead to immoral behaviour, especially with


new industry like the Internet which needs regulation. There can be a


role for the government to hold back from the excesses of that kind of


commercial freedom. He emphasises mutual aid and how people can help


each other. That is what I like about Kropotkin, he is optimistic


and warm, and agrees that we are not all selfish and out for each other.


He has a sense that, actually, we are social animals, and we depend on


each other, and you can build a society together and work together


collectively, but without the tyranny of the state. That is nice.


I think one day in the future, centuries from now, I think it is


depressing that we will all be languishing under a state, under


authority where we cannot trust each other and we have to be protected


from each other. We have gross inequalities between wealth and


power, and while I do not agree it is a practical blueprint, it is a


nice thought. My dream libertarian age the Victorian age -- is the


Victorian age. There was a fine tradition of philanthropy, the


government was much smaller, the economy was driving. What was the


life expectancy in the Victorian age? -- thriving. That is not true,


actually! There was a lot of good stuff in the Victorian age but we


have to look at the facts, and the fact was that it was the government


who introduced things like the ten hour working day. In the early 1800,


women and children were literally dying because they were working so


much. It was unregulated, the labour market. The government did do some


good there. Employers want staff to die on the job, they think, but they


do not. You find that business has an interest in looking after


employers will stop the great myth of the Left is that the government


does not have to step in on time. No, no! It was Lord Shaftesbury who


introduced limitations on the working day. Fair enough. I am not


saying there is no room for the government but the work of


catalysts... We live in a society where most people in poverty are in


work and the tax payer is subsidising poverty. Instead of big


government subsidising those employers, let's have a wage that


reduces the burden on the tax payer. It is the same with housing. We


subsidised private landlords, we subsidised companies, big


corporations, industry, education. So, let's have a society where we do


not have that. What-macro hold that bought because we have to move on


and we may cover some of that. Now, talking of political thinkers,


we've got two quite large ones So we thought we'd play


Political Roulette. A sort of poor man's


"Have I Got News For You" device. Yes, we have a series of hot topics


on the Daily Politics wheel. And we want you to discuss


as many of them as we can. One of you press that button to get


it spinning and press it again when you want it to stop! Press the


button. This is a smooth operation! As you can see, we are new to this


and have I got news for you is not in any danger. Press the button,


started spinning. Press it again. The economy. I will say to you that


living standards are rising, unemployment is falling. The Tories


said they would pay off the debt, but they have added more debt. They


said it would wipe out the deficit but they will be lucky to get


through half. As for growth, the worst economic recovery since, not


the great depression, but the longest recovery since the Victorian


age. The longest fall in living standards since Victoria sat on the


throne. People will be poorer than they were in 2015 than they were in


2010. Despite having written that things are going to get better, and


this generation has -- never had it so good, I would have to concede.


This is a feeble recovery and it is driven by quantitive easing, which


is creating this room. This enables the rich get richer. The housing


bubble. A housing bubble, I do not think it is a real recovery, and I


worry that the worst is yet to come and we are going to have something


horrible to happen. Nevertheless, it is a vindication of having not


joined the euro. They cheated! I wanted to get climate change will


stop I can happily talk about UKIP. It is very exciting. Some polls seem


to be suggesting they are almost 40%. Question Time... Namely poll.


-- named the poll. James Delingpole! It was dominated by Nigel Farage.


The audience was all over him. They thought he was fantastic. He is


different. Will they come first in the European elections? Yes. And


other public schoolboy who worked in the City. He trades on the


antiestablishment. That is the reality of it. The problem with UKIP


is they are deflecting people's anger at real problems. 5 million


people on social housing waiting lists, not because of immigrants,


but because of the Government not building housing. We have a lack of


skilled jobs, not because of immigrants, but because successive


governments... Why are they doing so well? The polls of UKIP motors, very


different opinions than James Delingpole. They want to


renationalise energy, rail, they want to tax the rich. They are seen


as up yours, immigration is the big issue driving it. Your turn. Press


it again. Cameron. Where do I start? Give me that. Do it again. Climate


change. I am surrounded by two powerful believers in the consensus.


We have seen a fascinating report, the... The IPCC report. In a sense,


it makes for depressing reading because if we do not deal with the


threat of climate change, we will have more extreme weather, drought,


floods, so one. The key point is it is an opportunity for jobs and for


growth. If we in Britain have a mass insulation programme of homes and


businesses, good for fuel poverty and the environment. We lost


industries, we do not want to send people down the mines, like Germany,


we could have hundreds of thousands of renewable energy jobs. Whilst it


might look bleak, great opportunity for jobs and the economy. We should


get to work on it. I am a great believer in climate change will stop


it has been changing for the last 4.5 billion worth years -- 4.5


billion years. There have been other warming periods where people were


billion years. There have been other not flying around in jets or


billion years. There have been other in four x fours. In its own way, the


climate was capable of changing. We are just coming out of the Little


ice age which ended in 1850. In the recent warming and the warming the


IPCC has concentrated on, from the mid to early 70s, man has played no


role in that? It has played a tiny role. What percentage? Less than


half the warming. That is not tiny. In the last 150 years, global


half the warming. That is not tiny. temperatures have risen by 0.8


half the warming. That is not tiny. degrees. Do you think the scientific


consensus is wrong degrees. Do you think the scientific


in terms of drought and extreme weather patterns? I love this appeal


to authority. Scientists know what they are talking about.


to authority. Scientists know what Ph.D. In it. Again, the appeal to


authority. A lot of the scientists are actually green activists. They


work for Greenpeace, the WWF. Many are actually green activists. They


respected scientists dispute the claims of the IPC 's. They said this


about HIV and AIDS. It is also an economic question. I am making a


point. Even if you accept that the climate is warming slightly, you


have to ask yourself, are the measures being taken to deal with


what so far seems to be a slight problem? Are they causing more harm


than good? I would argue that they are.


than good? I would argue that they you said. 50% of the climate


change... It is less than that. What is your explanation for the pause in


temperature rises is your explanation for the pause in


years? It is climate change. is your explanation for the pause in


is the long view. is your explanation for the pause in


projections over the coming years. is your explanation for the pause in


The computers never predicted this pause. Again, if you look at the


consensus over the last few years, pause. Again, if you look at the


what we see at the moment is that we are ready seeing the impact of


climate change with extreme weather events, and impact particularly in


many third World countries, an increase in flooding, things like


hurricane 's. We are de seeing the impact. It is not something to be


frightened about. Do you accept these extreme weather events must


have something to do with climate change? Extreme weather events go on


in the world and there will be tomorrow. Extreme weather happens


all of the time. People like Owen love to fetishise the IPCC. The men


in the white lab coats. It has become like a religion and these are


the high priests. The economic damage is worrying. We will leave it


there. I enjoy that. Now, this is the season


of election launches and today it's the turn of the Trade


Union and Socialist Coalition. They have more than 500 candidates


standing in the local elections. Let's take a look at one


of their election videos. Cuts! No! I am standing for TUSC in


Tower Hamlets. Why should we have to pay for the mistakes of the bankers?


I am standing to be a TUSC candidate in the Lewisham are. I am at the


conference for the simple reason I believe this is the start of


something monumental. I believe this is the start of a working people


getting political, active and also having an alternative voice to


Labour when Labour decide one central to sever links with the


trade unions. We are joined by the national chair of the Trade Union


and Socialist Coalition. It is good to have a moderate on the programme


at last! I take it from that video that the party's concentration is


overwhelmingly on what you think of the cuts and austerity. That is


right. Three quarters of our candidates are active trade


unionists and very senior people. We have also got a lot of anti-bedroom


tax campaigners, anti-fracking campaigners, anti-cuts campaigners.


We have some people who have already made history. We have Lord Dixon


whose Heckel started the process that led to the new Hillsborough


inquest. We are tackling austerity and cuts. You are contesting 559


seats in 87 cities. What would be a good result for you? I will give you


the same answer as when you asked before. We have only been going for


years. Do you have any councils at the moment? I have just come from a


press conference where a councillor who was expelled by the Labour Party


a few months ago for voting against the closure of a swimming pool in


his ward, he was sat by me at the press conference because he is


standing for us for re-election. Like I said before, when you are


starting from scratch and you have not got big money behind you, let us


remember, the unions has given Labour third of a third of ?1


billion and they have less influence now than the poor in the early part


of the 19th century. It is visibility we are after to try to


get the alternative message out. You get some backing from the RMT. Yes.


Will that continue now that Bob Crow has passed away? His passing was a


tremendous shock. He was a driving force. But the RMT is a democratic


union and has twice had an annual conference of delegates around the


country and the conference has decided to back the coalition and


its representatives are drawn from the whole executives. Owen Jones's


father... I remember his dad very well. What can you say to him to get


him to join you? He has made excellent points. Our difference


really is that we have already reached a conclusion like the


counsellor I have been speaking about in Southampton. You have two


chances daily macro choices in the Labour Party. You vote for cuts or


if you vote against them like in Hull and other places, Labour is


expelling councillors. I want to be on their side. He won spectator


magazine's backbencher of the year. He is a very principled man and lots


of people involved... Why are you not with him? My dad was a militant.


My great uncle, he was on the football team of the Independent


Labour Party in the 1930s. They left the Labour Party and they dwindled


into insignificance. That has been the story of every attempt to set up


a new left party, unafraid. The question I put two people setting up


a left party is that why given every single other attempt having failed


why will it be different? The early period is hard. The leader of the


first party up in Scotland... UKIP when they stood initially got 1.7%.


We have been averaging 5%, 6%, in council elections. I am confident


that given the choice, Labour, Tories, Liberal Democrats, there is


an alternative. I do not disagree that it is a hard job. We will have


to leave it there. of their election videos.


Andrew Breitbart, not a household name here, but


across the pond, he was renowned, or notorious, depending on which side


of the political spectrum use it. A leading right-wing blogger,


he was at the forefront of digital media, breaking high-profile stories


of political scandal and helping to develop the Huffington Post.


Before his early death two years ago, he established the Breitbart


news website which has now just launched in


the UK, featuring James Delingpole. Giles Dilnot paid them


a visit to have a look at the latest in online-only journalism.


It started life as Boris wants said as wiff-waff, became ping-pong and


officially table tennis. The back and forth his political news. The


quirky. Abu Hamza tucks into a doughnut. Breibart London may be


coming from the editor's flat, but it is another voice online doing


serious business in what rather dated Lee is referred to as the


blogosphere. It is not just filing copy, Breibart is batting with a


spin. We do not hide it. It is very obvious. It should be obvious when


you hit the front page. If not, we are doing a bad job. But it is


fact. We are serving a market which is fed up of buying newspapers and


getting press releases. Traditional media have spent the last year aping


online political news because they are serious competition. Looking at


the national newspapers, they are covering stories from three or four


days ago. What is the hold-up? They have to deal


days ago. What is the hold-up? They pages. We do not have that. The


agility is at the offices of Vice.com where the freedom of the


internet and its ability not to be bound to old formats or loyalties is


tricky for politicians. One of the freedoms we have that other


organisations we have that have existed for longer and in a more


conservative space, we do not necessarily have to behave in the


same manner as the BBC or the Times. Perhaps it would be more risky for


politicians to come and get into bed with this, as it were. Political


Scrapbook sees politics as better for the online challenge. The reason


politicians do not like the blog is clear is that it has democratised


access to information -- the blogosphere. There


access to information -- the an open secret in Westminster a


couple of years ago that 250 people knew about. The difference now is


lid on that information. It has opened it up to anybody with an


internet connection. They all agree that nobody involved knows how big


internet connection. They all agree online media is going to be except


that it is not a fad. If online media is going to be except


not sure, you can bet that online media is going to be except


politicians and old media do not have a clue. James you are involved


with this. It has become fundamentally uninspiring,


with this. It has become going to shake things up?


with this. It has become long time. It is the greatest


with this. It has become invention of the printing press.


Information is You start from a low base in the UK,


don't you? You start from a low base in the UK,


expectations. This is exciting. Old media is dying on its feet and new


media is a new thing. One of the reasons is that it can get onto


stories more quickly and also, it also circumvents the way that the


Left has occupied the universities, the schools, the newspapers. Right


wingers can get round that. I would give you one example. Climate gate,


that story would not have broken without the Internet. Most of the


information about that is on the Internet. In this country, is there


a left wing equivalent of Breitbart? You saw Political Scrapbook which is


an equivalent. The problem is this idea that the traditional media is


dominated by the left. It does not resonate with me. It depends on the


definition of left. There are lots of left blog is, certainly. If you


look at the Guardian, that gets 100 million hit. -- hits. That gives a


platform to a variety of voices on the left, and the right as well stop


rather than stick with the dead tree press... The Guardian is the


second-biggest website in the world! Rather than sticking with the dead


tree press, why do you not do a British Breitbart of the left? I


will tell you why I do not agree. One contributed to Breitbart in the


USA, he treated that if there is another terrorism attack in the USA,


all Muslims should be slaughtered in the street. I do not think that


style of politics, that extreme it is, is helpful. -- extremism. The


danger of Breitbart is that it becomes the lowest common to. You


said that every time you speak, 1000 new Socialists are born. Is that


right? Did that come out of my mouth? Ultimately, the facts of life


are of Conservative, and this is what the Internet shows. People have


an appetite for ideas, and not just... Sorry, we are going to have


to move on. The success of the BNP, the British National party, in the


last election. They won two seats in the North of England. Since then,


their fortunes have declined and they looked to be cruising for a


bruising this time around. In a moment, we will talk to the party


leader, Nick Griffin. He was a flavour of their latest campaign


video. Can I make something clear to you? UKIP is not against


immigration. We welcome immigration and want immigration.


# Tell them where to go by voting BNP.


# That is it, that is all you are allowed to see. It has been


censored. The powers that be say it is because we break off, rules. We


think it is because the message of hope is out of kilter with the


agenda of making British people a minority in this country. -- OFCOM.


You are in terminal decline, aren't you? That video, which the BBC


censored... Actually, it was OFCOM. No, it was OFCOM. It does not


matter. It does. It has been seen by thousands of people. It is the most


popular British political broadcast in history, it is gone by wilful


Ain 2007, you've got 200,000 votes. After the local elections, you had


55 councillors. You now have two, why did you lose your seats? You are


doing it again. We are not down to two councillors. We have dozens in


the North of England. Parish and town council is working hard for


their community. We have not got the seats where people are paid for


working as a councillor. When we stand in those, the Labour Party


rolls out electoral fraud campaigns and the BBC covered it up. If it is


our fault that you have lost most of your councillors, is it our fault


that you got 55 in the first place? I did not say it was your fault, I


said it was the BBC's fault for covering up electoral fraud. Who's


fault is it that your membership has collapsed? Again, I would love to


blame the BBC because if you do not pay or BBC licence, you put in


prison. I cannot do that. How much is it to join the BMP? A full


membership is ?90. Unemployed, ?60. You have lost almost 10,000 members


in recent years. Our membership has gone down in recent years, so has


other parties. The BBC should be talking about this issue. We have a


system in Britain where people are sacked, fired and discriminated


against because of their beliefs. That is a scandal. Are you to blame


for the party's decline? My members do not think so. There are always


people who fall out, who are sacked for some reason. That is politics. I


was in charge of the party's electoral rise, I have seen it


through the hard times, we were massively in debt, and we are now in


the black. We will still be here in the future. You have fallen out with


senior members, you have been declared bankrupt in January as


well, is it not time to let someone else have a go? My members say that


the legal debt which bankrupted me were rung up because the British


government attacked the BNP with the equality commission, and I was right


to defend that case, so my members do not care if I am bankrupt. A lot


of people have come to me, ordinary people, and said, I am bankrupt,


Nick, can you give me some advice? In recent years, you have tried to


make the party seem more respectable. I have looked at your


website and Signor manifesto. The top issue, you talk about austerity.


-- your manifesto. You talk about adding the burger. Is that your top


issue? -- banning the burka. In this country, there is a steady


Islamisation, and the burka is a symbol of that. We make a point of


resisting it for symbolic reasons and many people agree with me. Why


are you still alerting and consorting with neo-Nazis? Such as?


You spoke at an explicitly neo-Nazi press conference in January. No, it


is not! The leader is in custody on suspicion of murder. No, he is not!


That is utter rubbish. You asked me about Golding Dawn, and the leader


is imprisoned. -- Golden Dawn. As for them being neo-Nazis, they are


descended from the only people to resist Nazi occupation of Greece at


the start of the Second World War, thereby saving Russia and the West


from Nazi domination. I am not neo-Nazi. When we see Golden Dawn


with Nazi insignia and giving Hitler salutes, they are not Nazis? If you


studied the history, you would know that that salute was used by young


Greeks who went off to fight and die when they were killing young


fascists and Nazis. There is the German neo-Nazi group that you spoke


at. They are not neo-Nazi. Being neo-Nazi is illegal in Germany and


they would have been banned. What we need in the European Parliament is a


proper radical national block so that there is a real voice against


the criminal war mongering that is going on from everyone for all the


other parties, including UKIP and the BBC, to get us into war is in


Syria and the Ukraine which has nothing to do with Britain. We need


to speak up against that. Are you being squeezed on the one side by


UKIP, which speaks about issues you have mentioned, including


immigration and membership of the EU, and on the other side, by the


English Defence League, which has become better at street protests and


thuggery than you. No! The English Defence League was a big thing two


years ago, that it has gone. The demonstrations where we were calling


for capital punishment to be introduced, there were only ten


elderly skinheads there. Do you think it is a Zionist front


organisation? No doubt at all. If you go online and look what lies


behind the EDL, you will find all the facts. Is this not a hallmark of


fascism when you are labelling people as Zionist? We are not being


anti-Italian and to talk about the problems of Zionism, you are not


being anti-Semitic. You asked about UKIP, perhaps we should touch on


that. You get are squeezing everybody and because they managed


to convince some people they have an anti-immigration policy, that could


eat into our vote. Their anti-immigration policy is a net


increase of 50,000 a year which would actually mean an increase of


350 thousand Africans and Asians coming into Britain every year. As


that message sinks in, people are taking to us. Our message is to stop


all immigration. If you lose any peas, will you give up? No, we will


carry on campaigning and we will be back. -- MEPs. That is it for today,


I will be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics. It is a 11am. I


will be joined by Douglas Alexander and Nigel Farage. The by.


You've dug, you've sown, you've planted,


you've watered, you've trimmed, you've nurtured.


Look what you've grown with your patch of land.


A massive thank you for sending in all your pictures, from BBC Two's...


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