13/05/2014 Daily Politics


13/05/2014

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The American pharmaceuticals giant Pfizer has begun defending

:00:35.:00:41.

its attempted takeover of Britain's AstraZeneca,

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Scientists and unions have warned that

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the move could lead to cuts in jobs, and a loss of UK research skills.

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Heathrow and Gatwick want another runway, but which airport will win?

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The bosses of both will be fighting it out in the studio.

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Would you want this man to troubleshoot your business?

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And, apparently, MPs don't like being seen at the opera.

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So we thought we'd bring the opera to MPs.

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And with us for the whole programme today is the

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Digby served in Gordon Brown's government,

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He is stuck in traffic but should be with us soon.

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Martin Boon is with us, with a headline grabbing pole.

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The rarest of things, as you say, March 2012 is the last time we saw a

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small Conservative lead. Labour have been in charge in terms of the polls

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since then. It suddenly feels like a little something is beginning to

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happen. Lord Ashcroft had his own poll which reinforced what we had to

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say, a two points Conservative lead.

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The Lib Dems are even further down. You say this could be the start. We

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have seen a pattern of the Labour lead being cut to five percentage

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points over the last seven months. Is this really the start of

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something? It could be. We clearly are in a

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period of political flux. European elections next week. This is a

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relatively unusual couple of weeks in British politics where we have a

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new party emerging strongly, potentially winning those European

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elections, dominating the media narrative. People are focusing on

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what they can see, Nigel Farage and UKIP. That may be reversed after the

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elections. But some are thinking a Conservative lead has been a long

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time coming. Conservatives have been wondering

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why, in their minds, the effect of improving economic news had not been

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shown in the polls. Is this the start of that?

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I have been saying, wrongly, as it turns out! The conditions are

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therefore a Conservative lead. We have economic optimism. We have

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David Cameron and George Osborne seeming competent than their Labour

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counterparts in managing the economy. Positive approval ratings

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for both those leading conservative politicians, not the case for Ed

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Miliband and Ed Balls. And good news emerging. Conditions are therefore

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the Conservatives to grab the polling lead, to build on it and

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build the kind of numbers you might expect to see with those conditions.

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All the talk will be whether there is panic at Labour HQ. Let us hear

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Ed Miliband when he was asked about the polls.

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Polls go up and down. That is always what you say when you wear down. I

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have seen that in three and a half years in this job.

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have seen that in three and a half What matters is the bread and butter

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issues, energy prices, childcare, NHS, improving GP access, something

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which Labour is leading the other parties on. We will focus on those

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questions. The people will make the decisions. Putting a brave face on

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it, he has too. No doubt, psychologically, this will be a

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boost for Tory MPs. Let us look at the reliability of the polls.

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Michael Ashcroft's poll also had a two point lead for the

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Conservatives, how reliable is that? They are standard classic opinion

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polls. They were both conducted by telephone which dishes nearly have

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excellent records. So there is that. Every opinion poll, Ed

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Miliband is right, there are ups and downs. But they are correct

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generally two plus or -3%. It is fair to say the parties are running

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neck and neck. Was about the polls showing the

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Tories are narrowly first in the European elections bearing in mind

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most of those polls have put the Tories in third place behind Labour

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and UKIP? How reliable would that be? I will

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be the rarest of beasts, a pollster who will not stand. Behind an

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opinion poll. I am cautious about that. And it comes to European

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elections, we expect a turnout of 30% which means we are taking out a

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chunk of our poll sample for a start. When we have fewer numbers to

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play with, we have wider margins of error so there will be some flux in

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terms of the shares of the vote. The Tories in the lead in the European

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elections? Possibly. Possibly not stop briefly, the marginals are

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where the big battles. I would be interested to see which

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particular marginals have been polled or whether it is one pole

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across specific types of marginal areas. Those are confiscated polls

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to undertake. The devil is in the detail. We need more evidence.

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Who are these MPs, and who are they pretending to be?

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At the end of the show, Digby will give us the correct answer.

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The head of the American drugs company Pfizer faces

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tough questioning by MPs over the next two days,

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about the proposed purchase of its British rival, AstraZeneca.

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before the Business Committee this morning,

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and he'll appear in front of the Science Committee tomorrow.

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The MPs want to test Pfizer's claims that it's committed to safeguarding

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Let's get a flavour of this morning's events.

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Combined budget of AstraZeneca and Pfizer would not be reduced as a

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result of this taking over? I mean in this country. Can you just

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clarify? Yes, our commitment is to 20% of our global RND numbers

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worldwide would be in the UK. So you're not making that commitment?

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20% of the headcount of Pfizer in the UK. The Swedish experience is

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rather concerning and you can understand why people feel this.

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When the Prime Minister of Sweden said that, following the purchase

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there, they have had a negative experience, there were promises it

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would mean jobs and operations in Sweden that we don't think were

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honoured, it makes us feel great concern for jobs and resources for

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research. Does that bother you? Let me... No, answer my question is not

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your question. Does that bother you was my question? I am worried the

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facts are incorrect. That the Prime Minister is wrong? This is about

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limiting your tax to give to any government in the business model of

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your company. 80,000 people. It has produced innumerable numbers of

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great projects. Our purpose is to bring life changing products... Let

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me finish. Two patients. The way we will do that is by putting together

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the pipelines and scientists, being more efficient and gaining tax

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advantages. What are the drawbacks? Exactly what I was getting at. The

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disruption. What will we tell the person whose father died from lung

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cancer, because one of our medicines was delayed because, in the

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meantime, our two companies were involved in selling costs? Would

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your attitude change if there was a longer time frame?

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We have a 20, 30, 50 year commitment to this country.

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With us now is former Chancellor and now Conservative peer Nigel Lawson.

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And Labour's Shadow Minister For Industry, Iain Wright.

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I am pleased to say Digby Jones has made it.

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Were you reassured by what you heard? No, I wasn't, there was an

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admission that research and government spending could go down.

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What is the central element regarding British industrial

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competitiveness? We are very strong in science and research and we have

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to maintain that as a means of paying our way in the world. We

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didn't get those reassurances. Pfizer said its commitment to

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preserve UK site jobs are legally binding. They said that and promised

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to complete an AstraZeneca research Centre in Cambridge, and place 20%

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of research staff in the UK. Do you not believe them?

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Subject to circumstances, was the phrase used, the get out of jail

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card. That is not defined. They have previous on this. They have a

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business model that often produces acquisitions and has cost cutting at

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the expense of research and treatment. Digby Jones, it is their

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history of being asset strippers which has made people nervous at a

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time when Britain is very proud of its research and advancement.

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I can see why people are nervous. AstraZeneca, a lot of their research

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and investment is in Bangalore, and in the States. It is the product of

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a transnational merger acquisition. ICI bought a Swedish company. It is

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easy to polarise this. We should elevate the debate into saying the

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best way to keep research and develop

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elevate the debate into saying the best way to keep research and meant

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and highly skilled jobs is an education system that works, and

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produce people for business. A transport system which gives us a

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runway at Heathrow. A competitive tax regime. Then there wouldn't be

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any argument about legal obligations. It would be so good

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here they would not want to leave. What we should be doing as

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politicians, you should be saying to the American government, not Pfizer,

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could AstraZeneca do this in America? The answer is, no, they are

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a protectionist country. You should be saying, they are very welcome.

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It seems, Nigel Lawson, the whole of British science is against this

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takeover, despite the investment it would bring, according to Pfizer.

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The award against this takeover as it currently stands.

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Look, in my experience, they are almost invariably wrong. Whether

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they are or not, I don't know. I am completely neutral. I am concerned

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whether the British government should block this. I don't think it

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is in our interest that they do. I think it is in our fundamental

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interest we are an open country, open for business, welcoming inward

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investment. Pfizer are a perfectly respectable company, not crooks. I

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welcome the fact that assurances are sought. But at the end of the day,

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it is not in our interest the government should step in and block

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this bid. With Labour block this if they were

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in a position to do so? Can I respond by saying I agree with

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having an open economy. In my own region, Nissan has been a massive

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success. What the Shadow Business Secretary has done is said, why

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don't we extend as is legal and reasonable the enterprise act to

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ensure we have an additional category beyond media plurality to

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ensure the maintenance of the science and development base. That

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will help us pay our way in the future.

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want to get cast iron assurances. , you would say no at the moment, but

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if you had the so-called cast iron agreements, you would go ahead. At

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the moment I am worried this would not be in our interest. When the

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enterprise act was in an enterprise Bill, in the CBI we campaigned

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hugely to say to Gordon Brown and Patricia Hewitt, please let the

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maintenance of our RND science bases be one of the tests. I would have

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that as one of the tests, but that does not mean I have got the bid.

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Even if Pfizer failed a strengthened public interest test, could the

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Government blocked this? If the shareholders said it was a good

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deal? In legal terms, they could, it is in the statute. But that is not

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the point. But with respect to you, some are in agreement. That is

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posturing. No, it is not. In a global economy you cannot say,

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AstraZeneca do it in Britain because they do it everywhere. Both of them

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joined together are doing more in India than they are doing in America

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or Britain. You cannot distil it down to yes or no. You have to say

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where does this work to create wealth and be attractive for other

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investors. ? You do not want a storm on television about why we suddenly

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do not like inward investment. You do not want that. What reassurances

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would you want? I would go to Congress in Washington and say,

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would you let this happen in America. They will say no. Then we

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should say why should an American company do it anywhere else in the

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world? What about the issue of the taxpayer. It would reduce the amount

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they would have to pay in tax. That is seen as a cynical reason for the

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takeover. It was designed deliberately by the present

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Government to be friendly to business and to encourage enterprise

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and that includes companies from other countries which have a higher

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tax rate tend to come here. Although that is a consideration, there is no

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way Pfizer would want to take over AstraZeneca just for the tax. Why do

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you disagree? It is going down from 38% to 21%. It is a big drop. The

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shift in Pfizer's argument seems to have changed. It was about

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repatriation of tax to the US. This was a tax deal rather than becoming

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a science powerhouse. It seems to be because of tax reasons. When the

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board at Pfizer was sitting there deciding, do we go for this? The

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finance director would have said, there is a nice tax regime and

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Britain is attractive. But you do not at that level make decisions

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like this just for tax. It helps gild the decision. You are stepping

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up the card against the company on the basis of tax and whether it will

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be committed to keeping Britain as a research and development Centre and

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jobs, but do you see it looks as if there is a block to this bid coming

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in? The wriggle room has circumstances changing and the

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wording of the letter is too vague. The commitment of five years, given

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the life sciences sector, is too short. We are thinking about the

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next 15 or 20 years. AstraZeneca, unlike Glaxo Smith Kline which is

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bigger and British, and Pfizer at the top, where you are onto

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something is AstraZeneca's pipe line of patented discovery, which is not

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going to go generic to anybody, that pipeline is very small. You need to

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have ten or 15 years out and it is diminishing by the day. To have a

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longer term commitment to research and development needs more time. Do

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you think it will go ahead? There is a general expectation that Pfizer

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are going to make a bid, which technically they have not yet done.

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That bid will be something higher than the price they indicated

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originally. Then each company will be making its own pitch. And of

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course there is the scrutiny, which is quite right, I am in favour of

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that and the Government will get undertakings. But let me add one

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thing, I am neutral, but I do not believe it is in our interests to

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block this bid. As far as Pfizer is concerned they know it is not in

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their long-term interest to alienate the British Government. Will they

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really care about that in the future? Why is it not in their

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interest? Because it is in our interests to make it clear that we

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are an open economy and we welcome inward investment. That looked at

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Kraft's takeover of Cadbury. There are always arguments on both sides,

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but overwhelmingly we are benefiting from inward investment. Kraft's

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takeover of Cadbury went down badly. It went down badly and basically

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they were never going to do what they said. That is not the point.

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Kraft's and Cadbury make a commodity. AstraZeneca and Pfizer

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need a very strong university-based to help with research and

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development and the second strongest university based in the world is in

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this country. If you put a sign up saying, we don't like other

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countries coming in, look at Jaguar Land Rover, Indian money, the

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biggest market China. Welcome to globalisation. Nissan, welcome to

:22:10.:22:17.

globalisation. Very briefly, you are reported as saying you would like

:22:18.:22:20.

the top rate of tax to come down to 40p. Would you like that in the

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manifesto? They do not need it in their manifesto, they will do it

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when the time is right. He's been the head of the CBI. He's

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been a government minister. He's in the House of Lords. And now it looks

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like Digby Jones is after my job as a top broadcaster! He's just

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finished a series of programmes for BBC2 where he visits businesses

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and solves their problems. But does the Digby dust really rub off?

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Adam's been to a firm that starred Tonight, Digby Jones tries to help

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one company take a radical change in direction. They made dehumidifiers

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in County Durham and spent ?1 million by a chest freezer firm in

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Scotland and were moving it down south,

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million by a chest freezer firm in Scotland and were moving it down but

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it did not end well. They planned to be making freezers by Christmas, but

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they missed that deadline and the next, much to his disappointment.

:23:22.:23:30.

You promised me. The boss was the one on the receiving end. I went to

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meet her this week. one on the receiving end. I went

:23:33.:23:39.

What is it do you like about him coming in? Most of it happened in

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such a world you do not know what is going on at the time. We always used

:23:45.:23:50.

to have a debrief at the end of the filming. The place looks pretty

:23:51.:23:55.

shipshape, full of gadgets and robots, but... They are not doing

:23:56.:24:04.

anything. No, we are about a few weeks away from being able to hit

:24:05.:24:08.

the button and this process being able to join up and work. What would

:24:09.:24:16.

he say if he was here today? He knows where we are on the dates and

:24:17.:24:21.

the one thing he really did admire is we took the decision to make the

:24:22.:24:24.

right decision for the business and not to get into the documentary.

:24:25.:24:34.

Digby taught her the importance of marketing and leadership, but you

:24:35.:24:38.

read that moment was a visit to the Nissan plant in Sunderland. It was a

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light bulb moment for me where they are making half a million cars and

:24:45.:24:49.

you think it looks amazing. But in a few years time we could be making

:24:50.:24:54.

half a million appliances across these factories, so we have to plan

:24:55.:24:59.

for the future and the big scale. But there is one thing in particular

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that made it all worth it. The response we had from the British

:25:04.:25:10.

public that really want to see you succeed and value manufacturing

:25:11.:25:13.

jobs. Maybe that is an older generation, they remember when we

:25:14.:25:19.

used to make things. But even the youth of today, we get students on

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placement and they thought places like this did not exist any more.

:25:24.:25:29.

And his lordship is not the only one who has been helping out. They have

:25:30.:25:33.

received cash from the regional growth fund which they are using to

:25:34.:25:37.

develop the only made in Britain washing machines.

:25:38.:25:43.

Digby Jones is still here as is Iain Wright. How long do you spend

:25:44.:25:51.

generally with a company? For an hour's programme you do ten days.

:25:52.:25:55.

That is the filming. Behind that is the research, the chatting and all

:25:56.:26:04.

of that all to distil down. What my vision was, and the BBC approached

:26:05.:26:09.

me, I had said we have a generation of kids coming out of school who

:26:10.:26:14.

think business is about a rich man getting out of a Rose Royce. It is

:26:15.:26:19.

about somebody selling in a kitchen with a trainee cook and screaming

:26:20.:26:25.

the F word. The average businesswoman and businessman in

:26:26.:26:28.

this country do not identify with that at all. I said if you want me,

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you are not going to get reality television. She said she was not

:26:35.:26:39.

going to switch the on button to give a happy ending. She said, I am

:26:40.:26:47.

not going to produce a freezer for you because it is the end of the

:26:48.:26:52.

series. Yes, we missed our date and these are the reasons and we do

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something about it. Are you confident about that business? Of

:26:59.:27:03.

the three, I think the middle one will always exist, it is a question

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of whether it will fulfil its potential. This one are so utterly

:27:11.:27:14.

part of their community in the North East, I think they will succeed. I

:27:15.:27:24.

was privileged. I was so lucky to work with this great organisation

:27:25.:27:30.

called the Beeb and at the same time working with wealth creation and job

:27:31.:27:35.

creation in the country. I have a more confident generally? If you

:27:36.:27:39.

look at the current economic indicators, Labour look at it

:27:40.:27:43.

differently, but do you think the businesses you talk to are feeling

:27:44.:27:48.

more optimistic than they were? I hate to say to an opposition, it

:27:49.:27:53.

doesn't matter which side it is, it is very difficult to start picking

:27:54.:28:00.

holes in a sustainable recovery. I dare holes in this recovery? Loo-mac

:28:01.:28:05.

I am not going to criticise backing British business and this is

:28:06.:28:09.

fantastic and for too long there has been petty party politics. But my

:28:10.:28:15.

constituents and others around the country do not feel the effects of

:28:16.:28:20.

recovery. I do not feel it in my wage packet. I feel like I am

:28:21.:28:25.

struggling week in, week out. We have to make sure we have a real,

:28:26.:28:31.

sustainable recovery and that means emphasising the importance of

:28:32.:28:33.

manufacturing and real wealth creation that is not at the very top

:28:34.:28:39.

but has to go all the way through. Do you accept that? I do not think

:28:40.:28:45.

there is a disconnect between the wealth creation and its

:28:46.:28:49.

constituents, I think it is between the metropolitan elite of South East

:28:50.:28:56.

England and they constituents. Which it is becoming. It is like an

:28:57.:28:59.

Italian citystate of the 14th century. That has a property bubble

:29:00.:29:07.

aspect to it. But your constituents and the guys I advised around the

:29:08.:29:12.

Midlands believe me do not see a house price bubble in this. They

:29:13.:29:15.

need to feel their jobs are safe and they are better off because of this

:29:16.:29:21.

constant increase in the wealth creating, tax paying side of the

:29:22.:29:27.

economy. You used to work for a Labour Prime Minister. Do you think

:29:28.:29:30.

this current Labour leadership and Iain Wright are business friendly

:29:31.:29:33.

with the policies they are putting out? You included the Labour

:29:34.:29:41.

leadership and Iain Wright. Iain Wright has a different dimension in

:29:42.:29:46.

many ways and he will be loyal. If you are a North East MP you look at

:29:47.:29:51.

life a little differently to the Labour leadership. I think the

:29:52.:29:55.

Labour leadership is one of the least business friendly I have seen.

:29:56.:30:01.

Why do you think Labour is business friendly when the policies you have

:30:02.:30:06.

made quite a lot of political weather on has been the proposed

:30:07.:30:10.

intervention in the energy market, rents and trying to catch them and

:30:11.:30:23.

railways, why are business friendly? Markets need to function efficiently

:30:24.:30:33.

and some segments do not. I have been at an event with

:30:34.:30:35.

manufacturers, energy producers, who has said in terms of cutting

:30:36.:30:44.

business rates, that is what we need for manufacturing to thrive. A good

:30:45.:30:47.

example of what a Labour business policy is. That longer term view,

:30:48.:30:57.

that is best for wealth creation. The last people who should plan

:30:58.:31:01.

anything for business is a politician of any party at any time.

:31:02.:31:06.

Has this government rebalanced the economy? It promised to have a

:31:07.:31:13.

long-term industrial strategy. To move away from a housing bubble. You

:31:14.:31:20.

have to understand, you need an environment to create wealth. The

:31:21.:31:26.

Labour government before 2010 invested in apprenticeships. This

:31:27.:31:29.

government has carried it on. That is excellent for manufacturing and

:31:30.:31:37.

business. You need a competitive tax regime, runways, railways. And if it

:31:38.:31:41.

depends tax rate would not be. If you go to that lady up in Newton

:31:42.:31:48.

Aycliffe, is small businesswoman today shall we pick in Exeter, they

:31:49.:31:54.

will say the same thing. They can't get enough skilled people. If you

:31:55.:32:01.

have an education system, both parties for 30 years have produced

:32:02.:32:04.

kids who can't read or write. Which businesses are backing Labour? We

:32:05.:32:09.

are making sure our business policies are pro-business. Big

:32:10.:32:14.

business hasn't come out for Labour yet. That must be worrying for Ed

:32:15.:32:24.

Miliband if you cannot cite big business there for Labour. Let me

:32:25.:32:29.

help him. You have a Business Secretary, his opponents, Vince

:32:30.:32:35.

Cable, he bought his trains from dust and off, his cars from Tokyo.

:32:36.:32:40.

This is not about labour, but about politicians as a whole. Everyone

:32:41.:32:48.

tried the lies of it. I agree that is one policy that is good for

:32:49.:32:51.

business, but there are loads that aren't.

:32:52.:32:55.

I don't think politicians should plan, but having a vision and making

:32:56.:33:01.

sure industry can lead where it needs to. The automotive industry

:33:02.:33:04.

has been rejuvenated through long-term policies. Would you be a

:33:05.:33:10.

trade and industry blister under a Labour government? You would, with

:33:11.:33:22.

their policies? I would serve my country. I wouldn't serve a

:33:23.:33:26.

political party. If Ed Miliband did ask Digby Jones? With no tribal

:33:27.:33:35.

political party strings attached. Including not taking the whip. And

:33:36.:33:40.

David Cameron? I really do treat them all the same. Business will

:33:41.:33:44.

work with any democratically elected government. You have to get away

:33:45.:33:47.

from party politics. Now to the long-running saga

:33:48.:33:52.

of airport expansion. Detailed proposals

:33:53.:33:54.

to increase capacity in the south east of England have

:33:55.:33:56.

been delivered today to the body set up

:33:57.:33:58.

to select the best location. So, what's happening with

:33:59.:34:01.

the incredible expanding airport? Captain Howard Davies was charged

:34:02.:34:03.

with deciding which of Britain's major airports

:34:04.:34:05.

should be allowed to grow. The captain has landed the two

:34:06.:34:09.

leading contenders, both of whom

:34:10.:34:12.

have revealed their plans today. Big old Heathrow

:34:13.:34:16.

wants to make room for over 200,000

:34:17.:34:18.

extra flights every year. The captain has been studying

:34:19.:34:22.

plans to add a third runway. Some would prefer Heathrow

:34:23.:34:27.

to extend an existing one. Meanwhile, plucky Gatwick hopes

:34:28.:34:31.

its second runway will be granted Last year, Captain Howard's Airport

:34:32.:34:34.

Commission threw out plans by other airports, including

:34:35.:34:38.

Birmingham and Stansted, to expand. And said, for the moment, he would

:34:39.:34:44.

not consider as suggested by a certain

:34:45.:34:47.

blond-haired wing commander. The Government has asked

:34:48.:34:54.

Captain Howard to make a final recommendation

:34:55.:34:57.

after next year's general election. Ministers will then decide

:34:58.:35:00.

which scheme to back. Well, we're joined now by

:35:01.:35:04.

the big hitters from both airports. The chief executive of Gatwick,

:35:05.:35:07.

Stewart Wingate. And the newly-appointed chief exec

:35:08.:35:10.

of Heathrow, John Holland-Kaye. Why would a Gatwick second runway be

:35:11.:35:25.

better than expansion at Heathrow? There are two reasons why Gatwick

:35:26.:35:29.

would be better. The first is the case for Gatwick is very strong. The

:35:30.:35:35.

second runway would get more connections to more destinations

:35:36.:35:38.

worldwide. It would open five years faster than a new runway at

:35:39.:35:42.

Heathrow. It would seem more passengers utilise the runway

:35:43.:35:46.

because being south of the city we could use the full capability of the

:35:47.:35:51.

runway. Gatwick is an opportunity to have a runway finally delivered. I

:35:52.:35:55.

have been talking to different businesses, some in the north-east.

:35:56.:36:02.

What I hear is we need this to be delivered. Heathrow is politically

:36:03.:36:08.

toxic. Your turn, why would an expanded Heathrow be better?

:36:09.:36:13.

Heathrow and Gatwick are different. Gatwick is a very good at what the

:36:14.:36:19.

serving low-cost markets and long haul leisure destinations. Heathrow

:36:20.:36:23.

Connect businesses with the world. We serve network areas pulling

:36:24.:36:29.

together the demand for remote markets and growth markets in Asia,

:36:30.:36:36.

China, the Americas. If we want to deliver the ?100 billion of economic

:36:37.:36:41.

growth, only Heathrow can get us to those local markets. Who would you

:36:42.:36:45.

go for? I would go for both. Because you

:36:46.:36:50.

both have done it really well. You best highlighted why you are both

:36:51.:36:55.

good. You can both serve the country in a different way. We have to stop

:36:56.:37:00.

internal flights going to Scotland and getting the railway up there. We

:37:01.:37:07.

need to get to Brazil, China, India. An awful lot of traffic

:37:08.:37:11.

doesn't generate and originate in London. You need to have a hub to

:37:12.:37:17.

justify the cost. You need Gatwick because you can't have it, to make

:37:18.:37:24.

sure the government can cope for the next 50 years in the south-east of

:37:25.:37:28.

England. The problem is for Gatwick is this

:37:29.:37:36.

hub issue. The strongest argument it seems for Heathrow, that people

:37:37.:37:40.

coming into London will want to use Heathrow as it is the most connected

:37:41.:37:46.

airport. This is a choice between the competitive airports market, and

:37:47.:37:52.

going back to a monopoly situation. Gatwick was sold by Heathrow

:37:53.:37:56.

following the forced break-up of the monopoly, to create competition. In

:37:57.:38:00.

four years we have already connected to 50% of high-growth markets

:38:01.:38:09.

globally with a European network. If we are going to have a market, let

:38:10.:38:12.

it be a competitive market with affordable fares, and connectivity

:38:13.:38:21.

worldwide. It is politically toxic, expanding

:38:22.:38:24.

Heathrow, which is why a decision has been made on airport expansion.

:38:25.:38:31.

It will be extremely difficult to get past the politicians. I don't

:38:32.:38:37.

agree. The politicians recognise the economic value that Britain needs to

:38:38.:38:44.

connect to the world, to get to the growing markets in Asia and the

:38:45.:38:50.

Americas. They can only do that through a hub airport. We have

:38:51.:38:54.

listened to our local communities and business. We have changed our

:38:55.:39:01.

plans. Tell us about that, is it, in terms of compensation, the issues of

:39:02.:39:08.

noise and pollution are of concern. We have moved the location of the

:39:09.:39:13.

runway and changed its alignment so it has less impact on noise. Reduced

:39:14.:39:18.

the impact on the number of houses affected. Increasing the level of

:39:19.:39:22.

compensation to people who lose their homes. A well thought through

:39:23.:39:27.

town which reflects the feedback from local communities. And giving

:39:28.:39:31.

respite to all people affected by Heathrow. Do we need it? Let us say

:39:32.:39:38.

that Howard Davies recommends a second runway at Gatwick. Could we

:39:39.:39:49.

survive? You have had Lib Dem politicians saying, don't want

:39:50.:39:53.

anything. Tory, let us kick it in the long grass because it is toxic.

:39:54.:39:58.

And labour saying, I am going to stop building this third runway

:39:59.:40:01.

because it is not popular. A complete lack of leadership in this

:40:02.:40:08.

issue for 20 years. Businesses are screaming for them to make a

:40:09.:40:12.

decision and make it happen. On that basis, that is why I say both. If

:40:13.:40:21.

you want to let Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, take the hub traffic, the

:40:22.:40:25.

best thing is not to expand Heathrow. If you leave Heathrow on

:40:26.:40:33.

its own, you really will choke it incredibly quickly because Gatwick

:40:34.:40:36.

is an enormous asset for the nation serving a different market. We need

:40:37.:40:42.

both. The most important thing is we deliver additional capacity.

:40:43.:40:51.

Heathrow has failed. That is why we have improved our plan, listened to

:40:52.:40:55.

business and local communities. More people in west London support the

:40:56.:41:01.

expansion than oppose it. We heard about Heathrow planning to build

:41:02.:41:06.

over the M25. The disruption costs are captivated at ?1 billion. Those

:41:07.:41:13.

watching this in Essex or the West Midlands will be saying, what about

:41:14.:41:19.

Stansted and Birmingham? This is not a South East exclusive argument. You

:41:20.:41:24.

agree with that. What about campaigning together? Can you not

:41:25.:41:32.

see eye to eye on this? We support expansion at Heathrow and Gatwick.

:41:33.:41:38.

We want as much runway capacity for the UK we can. We are in a global

:41:39.:41:43.

condition against the French and Germans. What we do need is

:41:44.:41:46.

expansion at Heathrow well because we need something different. We are

:41:47.:41:55.

at capacity. We need to unlock that. Would you support both of you

:41:56.:42:01.

campaigning together? Sir Howard Davies has essentially said he will

:42:02.:42:05.

come up with a recommendation for where the next runway goes. The

:42:06.:42:08.

condition is between ourselves and Heathrow. Would you have competition

:42:09.:42:14.

between the two of you if you had a choice? Would you choose only one

:42:15.:42:21.

between the two of you if you had a runway? Or both? There needs to be

:42:22.:42:24.

capacity at both airports in the fullness of time. That is a yes,

:42:25.:42:30.

then. The demand must go to a runway where it can be delivered. Gatwick

:42:31.:42:36.

is on the table for the first time in decades because we are in

:42:37.:42:41.

separate ownership. We can connect to 60% of the demand in the European

:42:42.:42:47.

market. And the emerging economies. You can have a strong Heathrow and a

:42:48.:42:52.

strong Gatwick serving London, the London to compete with other cities

:42:53.:42:57.

in Europe. What about the alternative of extending an existing

:42:58.:43:04.

runway at Heathrow? We have looked at it. What put us off that idea is

:43:05.:43:09.

it would mean there would be arrivals and departures on the

:43:10.:43:12.

runways continually and those living in the flight

:43:13.:43:56.

capacity to collect -- connect Britain and to the world. To boost

:43:57.:44:02.

the British economy. Not rely on the Dutch, French or Germans.

:44:03.:44:07.

What if politicians say they won't make a decision? Let us say they

:44:08.:44:13.

don't do anything. Which is what they could do. By the way, I read an

:44:14.:44:20.

article about this. The article was headed, no is an answer. Because the

:44:21.:44:25.

nation, especially the airlines and business, will know where they

:44:26.:44:29.

stand. The political class, because they want popularity, will have

:44:30.:44:34.

basically said, OK, let's be a second rate nation, over to you,

:44:35.:44:41.

Germany. Great to have you both on together, do come back again.

:44:42.:44:44.

Our guest of the day Lord Digby Jones has been

:44:45.:44:47.

a long-standing critic of the European Union.

:44:48.:44:49.

He once said the EU creates a "staggeringly large pile

:44:50.:44:52.

of regulation in virtually every part of our lives".

:44:53.:44:54.

So you can see why UKIP might be trying to recruit him.

:44:55.:44:58.

In a moment, we'll discuss the pros and cons of being in the EU

:44:59.:45:01.

But, first, here's a flavour of their election campaign video.

:45:02.:45:49.

And joining me now is leader of the four Freedoms Party, Dirk Hazell,

:45:50.:45:59.

the UK version of the European people's party. Welcome to the

:46:00.:46:03.

programme. When you go to the doorsteps, have people heard of you?

:46:04.:46:11.

Honestly? Our party is not on the tip of everybody's tongue, but the

:46:12.:46:17.

voters at the back of their minds no Mr Cameron left the big party for a

:46:18.:46:22.

funny, small one. People know that and there is recognition for that

:46:23.:46:27.

and when you start to discuss it, they know the Tories chose to take

:46:28.:46:33.

the people out of the leading party with the Chancellor Angela Merkel.

:46:34.:46:42.

Do they care? We had a 92% increase at the end of the meeting of people

:46:43.:46:47.

who believed we could stake in Europe. The British people are the

:46:48.:46:51.

most sophisticated electorate in the world and they know when they are

:46:52.:46:54.

being sold out and they know by and large politicians are not telling

:46:55.:46:59.

them the truth. I agree with what you say about training and

:47:00.:47:07.

education. If people have an idea that David Cameron took to the

:47:08.:47:11.

Conservative party out of this big, centre-right grouping to join a

:47:12.:47:15.

group of mismatched other parties, some of whom have been making less

:47:16.:47:21.

than desirable comets, was that a mistake? Yes. Why UKIP will have

:47:22.:47:29.

disappointing news today is the chance of rejoining them are nil

:47:30.:47:33.

because I believe the future of the nation is in Europe. But what I

:47:34.:47:38.

believe passionately, and where I am is where most of the nation and

:47:39.:47:43.

Europe is, is that I think there is a golden chance between Germany

:47:44.:47:48.

within the Eurozone and Britain outside the euro zone, two big

:47:49.:47:52.

economies, at a time when Italy and France have got the challenges, they

:47:53.:47:59.

have got a golden opportunity to reform Europe into a point where it

:48:00.:48:03.

delivers for the businesses and the people of our country. Cameron is

:48:04.:48:09.

going to have a more difficult job doing that reform job when he has

:48:10.:48:14.

left the grouping that Angela Merkel was in. That has hampered his

:48:15.:48:19.

position? That does not mean we need to reform Europe. You said it made

:48:20.:48:28.

his position more difficult. If he is not able to repatriate some of

:48:29.:48:33.

those powers, will you be campaigning to stay in or pull out?

:48:34.:48:38.

If we have the Europe of the day with no reform, I think our chances

:48:39.:48:44.

are better off out than in. What are the responses on the doorstep? Are

:48:45.:48:49.

people saying they have not seen a major change and so we should pull

:48:50.:49:00.

out? We are going to get reform. The reason we are going to get reform is

:49:01.:49:04.

because the European people's party is going to win this election and we

:49:05.:49:09.

are committed to reform. Our presidential candidate could not

:49:10.:49:13.

have made it clearer. The priority is to create massive new jobs for

:49:14.:49:19.

talented youth in the digital economy, in London in that sector,

:49:20.:49:25.

and we are going to get it. The Governments have got to work

:49:26.:49:28.

together and also within the European Parliament we have to have

:49:29.:49:31.

a British and a London voice inside. Can I ask you a question

:49:32.:49:41.

about the core of reform? The taxes of the people spend more money on

:49:42.:49:45.

subsidising a commodity called agriculture than they do on growing

:49:46.:49:50.

and developing the education base of the European union. If you are one

:49:51.:49:56.

of the 50% under 25s in Spain, you have more chance of getting a job if

:49:57.:50:00.

you are skills that if you do not and we carry on spending more money

:50:01.:50:06.

of my and your taxes on subsidising Spanish agriculture than we do on

:50:07.:50:14.

Spanish education. Can they really change? I mean fundamental reform.

:50:15.:50:24.

The European people's party is really serious. If we had in this

:50:25.:50:29.

country full reports of what Angela Merkel said and other European

:50:30.:50:34.

leaders said, you would see how serious our natural allies are. The

:50:35.:50:39.

leader of Ireland, Sweden, Poland, Germany, all these people are

:50:40.:50:43.

natural allies and who has our Prime Minister gone in with? Can they

:50:44.:50:51.

deliver reform? The money that subsidises agriculture and

:50:52.:50:56.

education, and even if every penny of it went to sort out unemployment

:50:57.:51:04.

in Greece... This country has paid quite a high price for not being an

:51:05.:51:08.

entry country into the European union and the Conservatives have

:51:09.:51:15.

made decisions with serious consequences. The poll tax in

:51:16.:51:20.

Scotland, a strategic long-term error. Leaving the European

:51:21.:51:25.

people's party at precisely the time where there is the leadership in

:51:26.:51:30.

Europe that can deliver this change. Yes, there should be more spent on

:51:31.:51:36.

training. The European people's party has increased the training

:51:37.:51:41.

budget 40%, but it is mostly member states' responsibility. I am a

:51:42.:51:46.

school governor and the whole of our meetings are spent on rules and

:51:47.:51:50.

regulations and not the pupils. These are problems made in Britain,

:51:51.:51:55.

but not in Brussels. We have to leave it there.

:51:56.:51:58.

Now, are politicians too scared to go to the opera?

:51:59.:52:00.

Well, the Musical Director at the Royal Opera House,

:52:01.:52:03.

Sir Antonio Pappano, thinks MPs are too frightened to

:52:04.:52:05.

show their faces at the opera in case they're seen as too elitist.

:52:06.:52:09.

In a moment we'll be discussing that, but first lets see what MPs

:52:10.:52:12.

I am a slightly witless prints. Slightly in fortunate there. I am

:52:13.:53:22.

joined by the Sun newspaper on Sunday political editor, and are you

:53:23.:53:34.

an opera buff? Yes, I am. The Sun newspaper laid on tickets for the

:53:35.:53:38.

Royal Opera and it was a sell-out. It is not elitist at all. But it is

:53:39.:53:45.

normally very expensive. Blame politicians for that because they

:53:46.:53:50.

should subsidise it more. Do you like opera? No, I like ballet, and I

:53:51.:53:58.

go to ballet a lot. I like a June. At least I am honest. There is a

:53:59.:54:07.

difference. Elitism is for a guy who buys a lottery ticket in Manchester

:54:08.:54:12.

today to buy a very wealthy person to go to the opera in Covent Garden,

:54:13.:54:20.

that is elitist. To take opera into schools, to take its ability and is

:54:21.:54:23.

a participant of quality into schools all over Britain that cannot

:54:24.:54:29.

be elitist. I do not think Opera is elitist. I think the Royal Opera

:54:30.:54:35.

house might be. Our MPs embarrassed to be seen at the Opera? Yes, they

:54:36.:54:42.

want to appeared to be cool. David Cameron says he likes the Smiths,

:54:43.:54:47.

David Blair liked the Arctic monkeys. Nobody sees through that.

:54:48.:54:57.

Anything a politician touches is not cool. They may as well go to the

:54:58.:55:02.

opera. It is all about politics, with backstabbing, sex, and it is

:55:03.:55:07.

all there. All the great figures end in tragedy. Why can't politicians be

:55:08.:55:14.

genuine wine? People would respect them more. Do you think there are

:55:15.:55:19.

people in politics who like it JENSON BUTTON: Yes,

:55:20.:56:41.

Marvellous, well done. All the best Spanish music written

:56:42.:56:51.

by French men! Right, any guesses? You were shaking

:56:52.:57:30.

your head. I have no idea. Dom Pasquale.

:57:31.:57:54.

Is it Mozart? Don Giovanni. Marvellous. Something nonparty

:57:55.:58:07.

political. There's just time

:58:08.:58:10.

before we go to find out The question was who are these MPs

:58:11.:58:12.

and who are they pretending to be? And they are pretending to be from

:58:13.:58:18.

the Eurovision Song Contest.

:58:19.:58:49.

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