17/06/2014 Daily Politics


17/06/2014

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by former Scotland secretary Lord Forsyth and the SNP's Angus Robertson.


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LineFromTo

Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:43.:00:44.

The Iraqi government asks the United States for air strikes

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Reports this morning say parts of the city of Baquba,

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just 40 miles from Baghdad, have been taken over by the rebels.

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In a sign of thawing relations with Iran, the Foreign Secretary,

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William Hague, announces the UK will re-open its embassy in Tehran.

:00:57.:00:59.

The Government needs to spend more on flood defences -

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We'll hear from the MP whose report on the winter floods says ministers

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have got their priorities wrong, as well as the Floods Minister himself.

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And we hear from a political legend - Baroness Trumpington - who tells

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me about life in the Lords, Margaret Thatcher, and that V sign.

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All that in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme

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today I'm joined by two big beasts from the Scottish political jungle.

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The former Scottish Secretary, Michael Forsyth,

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from the Scottish political jungle. The former Scottish Welcome to you

:01:51.:01:51.

both. Michael Forsyth,

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Let's start with breaking news this morning - the Foreign Secretary,

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William Hague, has announced that the UK will start to restore

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diplomatic relations with Iran. How good a decision is this? I think

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it is a good reason. Any influence that can bring the different warring

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parties back from the briming and a potential civil war between sunny

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and Shi'ite is to be welcomed. But also for the other reason, which is

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trying to get Iran's nuclear weapons programme sorted out and I think

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having full diplomatic relations is conducive to that being more rather

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than less likely. Do you agree with that? I mean there has been a

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thawing of relations we have been told for sometime and it has been

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under discussion what the relationship should be between

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Britain and Iran. Do you think, first of all, that Iran is the key

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to trying to stabilise the region with events unfolding in Iraq? I

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think it is unfortunate that things have been so bad between us and

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Iran. I think quite a will the of the credit - while we are all

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agreeing - goes to Kathy Ashdown who has done a fantastic job at a

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European level, trying to restore diplomatic relations and trying to

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persuade Iran they might have a civil nuclear programme but them

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having nuclear weapons would be a very destabilising thing. So this is

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part of a process - of course there is the current problem in Iraq,

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which is very serious indeed, and if we can get the Iranians to help to

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deal with the instability that's obviously important. But this, of

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course, a country that has been blamed for exporting terrorism. Its

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ties with Hezbollah and of course the issue of whether it is

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developing a sinister nuclear programme, is this really who we

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want to have having warm relations with? The lessons from the Middle

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East is there are many things one can take exception to in many places

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but the lesson from Iraq and the instability that was caused by the

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UK's intervention together with the United States, lifted a lid on the

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pressure cooker. And has helped unleash forces which are very, very

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difficult to control. We need to look at every possible avenue to try

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and get countries that have influence on the different sides to

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use their good offices to try to get people to come back from the brink.

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So, by maintaining a embassy in different countries and one has

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embassies in one countries with all kinds of regimes, whether one likes

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them or not, it is the right thing to do, to try to get things on to a

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diplomatic route as opposed to the potential for all-out war in Iraq.

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This has been a turn around. Painted by many people, when you think of

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the axis of evil, arch enemy, Iran, certainly of the United States, if

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not of the West as a whole and here we are moving into a different

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phase. There is nothing new in that. You only have tolike at which side

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we were backing in the Iran/Iraq war. If you think back a few months

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ago, people were arguing we should be supporting the opposition

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militarily in Syria. Of course, they are the same people who are now

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threatening the stability of Iraq. So, I think what we have to

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recognise is what is going on here is, there is an age-long war between

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the sunnies and the Shi'ites and it is very important -- sunnies and

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sheitis and it is important to establish responsibility and I'm

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afraid past interventions have made things worse rather than better. We

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will come on to that later. This morning we learn that

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Michael Gove has decided to get tough on school meals,

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so our question for today is: What does the Education Secretary

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intend to ban Is it A, ketchup, B, salt, C,

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French food or D, deep fried food? At the end

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of the show our guests will try to What makes someone British?

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This morning the latest British Attitudes Survey was

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released and it shows that our views have changed in the last few years.

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The survey asked people what makes someone truly British.

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95% of people believe you must be able to speak English.

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that's gone up from 86% in 2003. Over three-quarters said you must

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have lived in Britain all your life. In 2003, that figure was 69%.

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Just under three-quarters of those polled said it's important to be

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born in Britain to be considered British and around half said it's

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important to have British ancestry. That's up from 46% in 2003.

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The survey also found a tougher stance on immigration.

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Just over 60% of those questioned said immigrants

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should wait three years or more before they claim welfare benefits.

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More than 40% of people think immigrants increase crime rates,

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that's up from 37% in 2003. We've been joined by Penny Young

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from NatCen Social Research, which compiled this report.

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Welcome to the programme. Just tell us, how do you do the research? We

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do a survey each year. We interview about 3,000 people across Great

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Britain. It is a very high-quality sample. We make great efforts to get

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people to participate. How do you do that? What sort of people are you

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getting to take part? We make sure it is representative sample. We

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don't interview people on the street. We pre-select addresses.

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They go to the addresses and they try really hard to get the right

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person to take part. So we have a high response rate on it. As Britain

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becomes more diverse, you might expect people to become more relaxed

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about what it means to be British. Is that the case? Well, not quite.

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We were really interested particularly, you know, with

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so-called Trojan Horse and the rise of Euro-scepticism and so on to

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really look at Britishness and what makes you truly British. In

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particular, is it something you can acquire or is it something you were

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born with? acquire or is it something you were

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born One of the key findings in changes, compared with ten years ago

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s now pretty much everybody thinks you must be able to speak English

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s now pretty much everybody thinks you must be able to to be considered

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truly British. It was high ten years ago, it was 86%. So that's a real

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shift. It is now a unanimous view. What about the impact of

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immigration? What does the survey tell us about that, apart that

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broadly people's views seems to have hardened? It is a mixed picture in a

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sense in terms of immigration. On some things it has definitely

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hardened. People are much less relaxed, for example about high

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grants having the same legal rights as settled citizens. That's

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toughened. There are small rises in terms of the percentage who think

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that the impact of immigration is positive on the economy and on our

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cultural life but nevertheless, what we see - these figures object cure a

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lot of differences within the population and there are different

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views. One of the most striking views is if you have a degree, you

:09:01.:09:04.

are very positive about the impact of immigration on the economy and on

:09:05.:09:07.

the cultural lifetime nation. Everybody else, it is a negative

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effect. So, in a sense, there are two sections within the British

:09:12.:09:14.

public, with very different views. In terms of the responses, where

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people live, was there a big difference between people who lived

:09:19.:09:23.

in England or English and Scottish participants, towards immigration?

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The key finding we found is actually the big differences between London

:09:27.:09:29.

and the rest of Great Britain. It is a very striking finding. People in

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London are really about twice as positive as the rest of the UK. It's

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a very different finding. Now that's partly explained because it is

:09:39.:09:41.

younger, more mobile population, clearly more migrants. People have

:09:42.:09:45.

more contact with migrants, better educated and so on. But it is a

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striking finding. Again, one of the key themes in the report is one of

:09:50.:09:53.

polarisation, we find that again on what makes you British. There is a

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significant minority of about one-third who are relaxed who think

:09:59.:10:02.

you can acquire British identity but everybody else thinks you have to be

:10:03.:10:05.

born, three-quarters says you have to be born. Does that worry you, the

:10:06.:10:09.

changes in statistics, now that so many people think that in order to

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be British you have to be born here and certainly to speak English. I

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thought it was a very interesting report. What it seems to me is it

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shows what happens if you lose control of your borders and you have

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substantial immigration, which is what happened under the last Labour

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Government. I think it is quite important that we recognise that the

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experience which people who are not graduates, who are struggling to be

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find work, living in perhaps deprived areas, struggling to find

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housing, then it is much more of an issue for them. I'm not surprised by

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the numbers. On the business of having to speak English,ing I mean I

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think that should be absolutely the law. I don't think you should be

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allowed to come into Britain unless you can speak English. It has become

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more of an issue now, I think, because there are so many people in

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our country who do not speak English. Annous combha what about

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your response. You are saying there is a more mixed Piccadilly tour,

:11:06.:11:10.

people are more positive about the economics -- more picked picture.

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That would be the case in my part of the world in the north of Scotland

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where people who have come from other European countries are now a

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vital part of our local economy. It is not part of the Social Attitude

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Survey so, it is not a criticism but I would draw attention tote fact

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that at the time of the last survey when it was taken, last year s about

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the beginning of the time when an unprecedented amount of media

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coverage was given to an anti-immigration party using

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anti-immigration rhetoric, a political party which I'm very

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disappointed did so well particularly down south. In Scotland

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UKIP only polled fourth. Something I'm pleased about. Indeed, nobody

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should downplay the risks of anti-immigration rhetoric on public

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opinion and I think that some of that is being reflected in some of

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the findings that have been published today. You are shaking

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your head. Let me bring to you something else, Michael Forsyth.

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Research shows people in England and Wales are not necessarily as hostile

:12:19.:12:22.

to the idea of Scotland continuing to use the pound in the convenient

:12:23.:12:26.

of a "yes" vote. What do you say to that. I would be very interested -

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if they have asked people - would you like to guarantee the savings

:12:32.:12:34.

deposits of people in a foreign country like Scotland, whether you

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would have got the same answer. I think it is a question - not being

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patronising at all, but it is a question that most people don't

:12:43.:12:46.

understand theism gaugeses or the difference between a money union or

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a dollarisation. How was the question posed? I must admit we

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didn't ask it quite like that. Quite in the leading way that Lord Forsyth

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mentioneds. Nonetheless it is important to understand where people

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are coming from. There are interesting findings south of the

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border in terms of how people would feel. What we were interesting in,

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is what would happen if Scotland does votele. On some things, for

:13:11.:13:13.

example, the English and Welsh have firm views. They say - actually we

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thinks the Scots should face up to whether they should choose a British

:13:19.:13:24.

or Scottish passport. Actually we think they should face up to try

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department and we would take them up to. But on other thing, the BBC and

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the Queen, people south of the border are relaxed for the Scots to

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carry on. So the interesting thing, post a "yes" vote we would still be

:13:37.:13:43.

interested in the Queen, the about BBC and Stlictly. This is debated in

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a Scottish context, the social union, the things we would share and

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would continue to after a "yes" vote. This is the first detailed

:13:53.:13:55.

examination of views in England and Wales on this subject I'm delighted

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there is a such a positive view across all of the subjects when it

:13:59.:14:02.

comes to those things that we plan and wish to continue sharing because

:14:03.:14:07.

we value the social union rather than reacting to the smears and

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fears we have had from the "no" side. We will leave it there.

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Sadly Scotland didn't qualify for the World Cup but that's OK because

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there's another major news event to get Scots arguing down the pub.

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The independence referendum on 18th September.

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There's a different story to cover every day, so here's

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Adam to bring us up to date. A busy time in the referendum campaign. The

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pro union campaign revealed its plans. Nicola Sturgeon unveiled an

:14:41.:14:47.

interim god Egyptian. JK Rowling donated ?1 million to the no

:14:48.:14:52.

campaign. Alex campaign Ruslan Tuchin Alex Salmond was accused of

:14:53.:14:59.

smearing and activist. Before Christmas, the polls were

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pointing consistently towards a 3-2 majority for the no vote, just over

:15:05.:15:11.

60%, under 40% saying they would vote yes. Look at the same picture

:15:12.:15:17.

now, it is only 56% for the no campaign. The polls are showing

:15:18.:15:25.

this. What about the campaign on the ground? First stop, on Glasgow South

:15:26.:15:33.

Side. What struck me is how the campaign has tweaked its message so

:15:34.:15:36.

there is a leaflet that appeals to everyone.

:15:37.:15:42.

We have the official Yes Scotland is that, green leaflets, labour for

:15:43.:15:47.

independence leaflets, bicycle independence, all the information

:15:48.:15:50.

for the different parts of the campaign. The grandma shopping

:15:51.:15:56.

bags, are they freebies for older voters or for campaigners?

:15:57.:16:03.

They could be either. They reckon their secret weapon isn't free bags

:16:04.:16:09.

but mums like Anna, apolitical but passion for independence.

:16:10.:16:18.

When I am with friends who know I am campaigning, asking my opinions,

:16:19.:16:23.

asking how the campaign is going. It has created a sense of enthusiasm. I

:16:24.:16:29.

have not seen that before. Now to Edinburgh and the no campaign who

:16:30.:16:35.

preferred to be called the Better Together campaign and who want to

:16:36.:16:38.

talk about the facts. The leaflets don't give the

:16:39.:16:44.

information, so here are the facts about the currency which is a big

:16:45.:16:48.

issue in this campaign. Jobs, shipyards. But the campaign has been

:16:49.:16:55.

criticised for being too negative so they have unveiled a new slogan, No

:16:56.:17:01.

Thanks. The activists have been told to be patriotic and personal.

:17:02.:17:08.

I grew up in London. Do you have issues with explaining you spend a

:17:09.:17:13.

bit of your life down south? Not at all. I feel this campaign is about

:17:14.:17:19.

keeping together. The fact I grew up in England, I was 11 when I moved

:17:20.:17:25.

back, I feel that strength is our message. They are running a phone

:17:26.:17:29.

campaign called Blather Together, a joke will get only if you have lived

:17:30.:17:31.

here. It's not just the big boys of your

:17:32.:17:32.

Scotland and better together involved in this referendum. There

:17:33.:17:37.

are loads of other players. For example, all the main political

:17:38.:17:39.

parties are each allowed to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on

:17:40.:17:42.

campaigning, and then there are the associated groups in the worlds of

:17:43.:17:45.

religion, creative arts and business. I just found one on

:17:46.:17:50.

Twitter called Grannies For The report would be complete without

:17:51.:18:00.

an obligatory time reference, there are just 92 days to go.

:18:01.:18:03.

And my two guests throughout the programme today, Michael Forsyth and

:18:04.:18:08.

Angus Robertson, are on opposing sides in the referendum debate.

:18:09.:18:13.

Michael, we saw both campaigns. Have you been impressed with the Better

:18:14.:18:21.

Together campaign? It got off to a slow start. There

:18:22.:18:26.

was some complacency but they are winning the argument is hands down.

:18:27.:18:31.

Whenever anyone comes out in support of the Better Together campaign, the

:18:32.:18:35.

Secretary-General of the NATO alliance, or the Pope who indicated

:18:36.:18:41.

he was worried about division, this is published by the other side. On

:18:42.:18:48.

the big issues, the currency, membership of Europe, the natural

:18:49.:18:51.

services, we are accused of scaremongering and being negative.

:18:52.:18:57.

People are beginning to realise the importance. I spoke at a meeting on

:18:58.:19:02.

Sunday night at five pm., and 500 people turned up, in a debate where

:19:03.:19:08.

I have never known so much interest in a political issue. It is good we

:19:09.:19:14.

are having that. On the campaign, has Alistair

:19:15.:19:17.

Darling done a good job, was he the right figurehead?

:19:18.:19:23.

He has done a good job. It is great Gordon Brown and others have become

:19:24.:19:30.

involved. A bit late? It is a bit late. I would have liked to have

:19:31.:19:33.

seen every household getting a leaflet setting out the positive

:19:34.:19:38.

case for our continued membership of the UK. The SNP have been using

:19:39.:19:43.

Government resources to put across their propaganda which is another

:19:44.:19:45.

issue. You have been using Government

:19:46.:19:53.

resources for propaganda? The UK government is spending

:19:54.:19:57.

?700,000 on giving information to every household. The debate is

:19:58.:20:02.

happening in every community in every village and town. There is

:20:03.:20:07.

unprecedented turnout at these meetings. A tremendously healthy

:20:08.:20:12.

thing. The debate is overwhelmingly positive. It is one that is

:20:13.:20:17.

respectful, one that people listen to. In the darker recesses of the

:20:18.:20:23.

Internet, there are those who use language which every side would

:20:24.:20:30.

deprecate. Alistair Darling describing the First Minister,

:20:31.:20:35.

comparing him with Kim Donald John. I want to concentrate on the

:20:36.:20:51.

positive. -- Kim il-Jong. I condemn anybody who uses intemperate

:20:52.:20:59.

language. He makes accusations about people's motives. This is a

:21:00.:21:02.

democratic debate about how we should be governed. It is not about

:21:03.:21:09.

where people come from, it is not impugning people's motives.

:21:10.:21:16.

Sometimes, unfortunately, we ascribe far too much importance to the

:21:17.:21:20.

darker recesses of Facebook or Twitter, and it is beyond me. Any

:21:21.:21:25.

time anyone is intemperate, I will condemn it. Michael, you said in the

:21:26.:21:31.

past there are Conservative MPs in England who want Scotland to vote

:21:32.:21:34.

for independence because it would electorally be better for the

:21:35.:21:38.

Conservative Party. Who are you referring to?

:21:39.:21:41.

There have always been a few people who have taken the view if we didn't

:21:42.:21:47.

have Scotland, we wouldn't have 49 Labour MPs coming down. It is what

:21:48.:21:51.

Labour bought when they set up a Scottish Parliament, they thought

:21:52.:21:56.

they would dominate. But we have ended up with a nationalist

:21:57.:22:00.

Government. Things don't always work out. We United Kingdom. We want

:22:01.:22:07.

proper representation from Scotland. It is important to maintain that

:22:08.:22:12.

union. The Scottish Conservatives are behind more devolution for

:22:13.:22:15.

Scotland, is that something you support?

:22:16.:22:19.

That is not an issue for now. The issue for now is whether Scotland is

:22:20.:22:24.

going to be part of the United Kingdom.

:22:25.:22:27.

If we are going to talk about more powers for the Scottish Parliament,

:22:28.:22:31.

then that is not just a matter for Scotland but for the UK as a whole.

:22:32.:22:37.

Are you against more devolution for Scotland? If you are going to give

:22:38.:22:41.

more powers, we have two address the West Lothian Scotland -- question.

:22:42.:22:47.

That is about what are the walls of the club? We are deciding whether

:22:48.:22:52.

Scotland remains in the club. And this, on key issues like the pound,

:22:53.:23:04.

monarchy, why would anyone risk to go back to the beginning of the

:23:05.:23:08.

Better Together campaign? The reason I am

:23:09.:23:10.

Better Together campaign? The smiling is in that report, the

:23:11.:23:16.

no vote claiming to be in support of more powers, they were demonstrating

:23:17.:23:22.

their support for this on top of Carlton Hill at a monument better

:23:23.:23:28.

known as Edinburgh's folly. An apt choice where they chose to

:23:29.:23:31.

demonstrate their support for further devolution. The leader of

:23:32.:23:37.

the Scottish Conservative Party was elected on a platform of a line in

:23:38.:23:42.

the sand. How credible is that? We were told in the 1970s to vote no,

:23:43.:23:48.

then had 18 years of Tory Government with no further devolution. He is

:23:49.:23:55.

not answering the question. Alex Salmond was opposed to devolution.

:23:56.:24:00.

One thing we have in common. He was against devolution because they

:24:01.:24:04.

thought it would spike their guns. I was against because I thought it

:24:05.:24:09.

would give the SNP a platform to break up the UK. The idea of going

:24:10.:24:13.

back and looking at what they said in the past, the issue for now is

:24:14.:24:18.

whether we want to destroy the UK. As people in Scotland are aware, the

:24:19.:24:23.

offer was on the table when we knew there was a referendum for the no

:24:24.:24:27.

side to state exactly what they wanted. They weren't prepared to

:24:28.:24:34.

come up with detail. We are supposed to believe that they are going to

:24:35.:24:38.

deliver a fantastically improved package of governance when they

:24:39.:24:42.

can't provide details. Have you provided detail on things like the

:24:43.:24:48.

pound, membership of the EU. A good question, I have before me

:24:49.:24:54.

what a yes vote will mean, the most detailed proposal provided. I have

:24:55.:25:01.

glimpsed that, does it answered those questions? Scotland's future,

:25:02.:25:10.

an anagram is fraudulent cost. It does not have any answers to the key

:25:11.:25:15.

questions. It does say we would have an entry into the Eurovision Song

:25:16.:25:19.

contest, but does not deal with our position and able to join the EU, or

:25:20.:25:26.

how we would defend ourselves against a nuclear deterrent. Do you

:25:27.:25:34.

both agree, though, watching that film, that actually in these closing

:25:35.:25:39.

few weeks, is it more about Hearts and minds? Yes, heart and head. I

:25:40.:25:48.

think it is about Hearts, history and heritage. Paul says, why can't

:25:49.:25:53.

Scots who are born in Scotland vote, because they happen to live in

:25:54.:25:58.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland? The voting rules which have been

:25:59.:26:03.

agreed to follow the president of past referenda. -- precedent. I can

:26:04.:26:19.

understand why they would wish to take part but there isn't a

:26:20.:26:24.

tradition of extraterritorial voting in the UK. The way the system has

:26:25.:26:29.

been organised is exactly the same as it has been for previous

:26:30.:26:32.

referenda. Colin says, who qualifies for a

:26:33.:26:36.

Scottish passport in the event of a yes?

:26:37.:26:40.

Really that is a question for the people who want to break up the UK.

:26:41.:26:50.

There are 800,000 Scots in England. In Scotland, if they vote yes to

:26:51.:26:54.

separatism, they will become foreigners in their own country,

:26:55.:26:59.

that is a huge step and will cause resentment on both sides of the

:27:00.:27:03.

border. 40,000 English people live in Scotland who will be turned into

:27:04.:27:08.

foreigners and who will have to choose their citizenship. It is a

:27:09.:27:13.

nonsense, citizens of the Irish Republic are not considered

:27:14.:27:20.

foreigners in the UK. We are in favour of a grown up relationship

:27:21.:27:24.

between the nations. The elements of the social union we value, a shared

:27:25.:27:33.

head of state, shared TV programmes, but of course there will be a

:27:34.:27:38.

Scottish passport. For those who haven't taken the opportunity to

:27:39.:27:41.

read about this, page 222 of the White Paper, on citizenship and

:27:42.:27:49.

passports, is very detailed. I look forward to having a Scottish

:27:50.:27:53.

passport. PJ says what happened to the big UK

:27:54.:27:57.

civil service officers in Scotland, do they close?

:27:58.:28:03.

Not at all, we require Government ministries in Scotland. The vast

:28:04.:28:10.

majority of 77 deal with the administration of reserved powers in

:28:11.:28:18.

London. -- majority of civil servants.

:28:19.:28:24.

This morning a committee of MPs has published its report

:28:25.:28:26.

on the winter storms during which over 7,000 homes were flooded.

:28:27.:28:29.

Eleanor Garnier is outside the Palace of Westminster,

:28:30.:28:31.

Last winter was the wettest in more than 200 years in England and the

:28:32.:28:46.

way. There were record levels of water which meant widespread

:28:47.:28:50.

flooding and widespread misery. There were more than 150 severe

:28:51.:28:57.

weather warnings. Parts of Somerset remained underwater for three

:28:58.:29:01.

months. Joining me to discuss the report today is Anne McIntosh, and

:29:02.:29:11.

the Floods Minister. You said the Government has got its spending

:29:12.:29:13.

priorities wrong. We would like to return to more

:29:14.:29:19.

money being spent on dredging and maintenance to clear the backlog.

:29:20.:29:22.

The single change we would like to see which is what the Secretary Of

:29:23.:29:28.

State asked for is to remove the artificial distinction between

:29:29.:29:30.

capital spending and revenue spending, to have a total

:29:31.:29:34.

expenditure budget. On the first point, do you agree to

:29:35.:29:39.

maintenance, things like dredging, when neglected, and instead there

:29:40.:29:43.

was an obsession with new flood defences?

:29:44.:29:46.

I do not think you can choose between one or the other. We have

:29:47.:29:51.

detected many more communities under this scheme. We need to work with

:29:52.:29:57.

local partners to get the most out of

:29:58.:29:57.

this scheme. We need to work with local partners to get the most money

:29:58.:29:57.

invested. local partners to get the most money

:29:58.:30:01.

That is something we are doing in Somerset.

:30:02.:30:05.

Even if the revellers have been better maintained with board

:30:06.:30:07.

dredging, it wouldn't have prevented the flooding.

:30:08.:30:12.

No, it is like the health service, we will never have enough money to

:30:13.:30:16.

spend on all of the projects the Government would like. We would like

:30:17.:30:20.

to support the Government, labouring in new public sector and private

:30:21.:30:28.

sector funding. Why not get pension funds to invest in these real

:30:29.:30:30.

infrastructure projects. spending? We have to make sure it is

:30:31.:30:41.

new money, not money being used to rob peater to pay Paul. Teet of the

:30:42.:30:45.

floods, David Cameron said that money would be no object. But it

:30:46.:30:48.

seemed to be taking a very long time for this help to get through. For

:30:49.:30:52.

example, to farmers, whose land was destroyed. Certainly the money is

:30:53.:30:55.

there. It is making sure that farm remembers able to apply for T we

:30:56.:30:59.

simplified the o process and applications are going up. The key

:31:00.:31:03.

question is how we spend the money we are investing. The coalition is

:31:04.:31:08.

spending more in Norman Lamont. We want to get the best use of that,

:31:09.:31:12.

use the local knowledge. It will be a combination of schemes, with

:31:13.:31:16.

capital and working on the maintenance issues and looking at

:31:17.:31:19.

the ways we can hold water back higher up catchments. Each catchment

:31:20.:31:23.

is different. We have to manage it in a different way. Your committee

:31:24.:31:27.

is saying invest in prevention, rather than spending on the clear-up

:31:28.:31:30.

is obviously the priority. How are you going to convince Dan and his

:31:31.:31:33.

colleagues that that is exactly what is going to happen? Well, I believe

:31:34.:31:38.

that the single thing is to merge the budget and stop this the a fish

:31:39.:31:42.

argument about whether it is capital or rev UN we support in my own area,

:31:43.:31:49.

we've benefited from the upstream management scheme, retraining it and

:31:50.:31:53.

stopping it going through into towns like ours, it could work in the

:31:54.:31:57.

Somerset levels, and working more imagine in a #2i68. Having

:31:58.:32:01.

infrastructure and flood defences where needed. Having softer flood

:32:02.:32:07.

defences and regular drainage and maintenance but working, as Dan has

:32:08.:32:10.

said, with the locals, which is vital. Can you guarantee that the

:32:11.:32:15.

Somerset levels cannot flood again next year As a Government we cannot

:32:16.:32:19.

stop it raining. You set out in your piece how much water fell. But we

:32:20.:32:24.

can do things to help, we can use that local knowledge. The dredge

:32:25.:32:27.

something under way and demunts across the country there will be

:32:28.:32:31.

flood schemes -- under way and communities across the country,

:32:32.:32:36.

there will be flood schemes under way and the money invested Where

:32:37.:32:41.

drainage exists we ought to allow them to use more of their own

:32:42.:32:45.

resources and own engineering skills and knowledge to hold back the water

:32:46.:32:49.

more effectively. And finally, are you convinced, now your report and

:32:50.:32:53.

its findings will be taken up and followed through? Well, Government

:32:54.:32:58.

has two months in which to respond. We'll debate those issues when we

:32:59.:33:02.

hear a response but we believe we are pushing at an open door.

:33:03.:33:06.

Well, clearly those who hadhomes and businesses devastated by the floods

:33:07.:33:10.

will be hoping the Government has got its priorities right. And one

:33:11.:33:15.

final point from the report, the committee claims that because

:33:16.:33:19.

climate change is so unpredictable, the risk of flooding will continue

:33:20.:33:25.

to rise. ! Well, with that risk continuing and none of us left in

:33:26.:33:29.

any doubt S it about more money being spent on flood defence. -- any

:33:30.:33:35.

doubt. Is it about more money? No, that is important but where I live,

:33:36.:33:39.

my village has been flooded many times seriously. I went to a public

:33:40.:33:43.

meeting and there were experts who commissioned reports from

:33:44.:33:45.

consultants and the locals said - there are two trees in the river and

:33:46.:33:49.

we stopped cleaning out the river and there has been a change to the

:33:50.:33:54.

road which has - people don't listen to local opinion. The local

:33:55.:33:57.

authorities, in the old days, used to lack at the roads every year and

:33:58.:34:01.

expect the culverts and make sure the drains were maintained. But that

:34:02.:34:07.

costs and Yes and is easy to cut and that's why when we get the flash

:34:08.:34:11.

floods and systems can't cope. The answer is, as the report says, we

:34:12.:34:16.

need to put more money into minute tennance and maintaining our river

:34:17.:34:19.

banks and drainage systems and that has been lost because as a

:34:20.:34:23.

short-term measure with long-term and devastating consequences. But

:34:24.:34:26.

also because central government has cut the amount of money going to

:34:27.:34:29.

local authorities and as you say they make the decisions... In

:34:30.:34:36.

England and Wales. Thank you. It has had an affect. And the freezing of

:34:37.:34:39.

the council tax which means resources are limited. The truth of

:34:40.:34:44.

the matter is you can't have good local Government if they haven't got

:34:45.:34:48.

the resources to carry out long-term projects in the long-term interests

:34:49.:34:51.

of the communities. Flooding is an example of that.

:34:52.:34:51.

All right. Let's leave it there. Let's return to the crisis in Iraq.

:34:52.:34:57.

Yesterday the Foreign Secretary William Hague made a statement to

:34:58.:35:00.

the House of Commons about the ISIS insurgency there. Here's some of

:35:01.:35:08.

what was said. Our national interest lies

:35:09.:35:14.

in supporting a sovereign and democratic Iraq to resist these

:35:15.:35:16.

threats, offering assistance, where necessary and working with others to

:35:17.:35:20.

prevent the spread of terrorism in Iraq and throughout the region.

:35:21.:35:26.

We are taking action in three areas: promoting political unity

:35:27.:35:31.

among those who support a democratic Iraq, offering

:35:32.:35:34.

assistance where possible and alleviating humanitarian suffering.

:35:35.:35:38.

We have made it clear that this does not involve planning

:35:39.:35:44.

a military intervention by the UK. For most British people,

:35:45.:35:46.

including many of us who supported the action at

:35:47.:35:51.

the time, the fears of those opposed to the intervention have been

:35:52.:35:53.

vindicated by subsequent events. It is futile to deny that subsequent

:35:54.:35:57.

history as surely as it would be folly to repeat it.

:35:58.:36:02.

Yet it is also facile to suggest that the crisis affecting Iraq today

:36:03.:36:09.

can be attributed solely to the consequences of intervention.

:36:10.:36:11.

Such an account denies the truth that the slide towards

:36:12.:36:14.

crisis in Iraq has been exacerbated by the civil war in Syria.

:36:15.:36:17.

Mr Speaker, it's Foreign Secretary today and in his statements over

:36:18.:36:22.

recent days, confirmed that British military intervention in Iraq,

:36:23.:36:27.

is not being contemplated. I welcome this assurance.

:36:28.:36:32.

The Foreign Secretary was a minister in John Major's government.

:36:33.:36:35.

A government which did use military intervention to impose

:36:36.:36:40.

a no-fly zone to protect the Kurds. That policy was continued under

:36:41.:36:44.

the Tony Blair government and enhanced under that government.

:36:45.:36:47.

Therefore, is it not the case, that if there is a request

:36:48.:36:50.

from the Kurdish regional government for assistance, we should give it

:36:51.:36:56.

sympathetic consideration? Tony Blair took the UK to war

:36:57.:36:59.

in Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction, which never existing.

:37:00.:37:05.

Never existed. And he was then rewarded remarkably

:37:06.:37:11.

with the post of a Middle East peace envoy.

:37:12.:37:13.

Given his dangerous and ill-judged comments in

:37:14.:37:16.

the last days, described by his own colleague, the Mayor of London as

:37:17.:37:19.

"unhinged", does he not agree that Tony Blair should not continue in

:37:20.:37:23.

post, as a Middle East peace envoy? No, I don't agree with that.

:37:24.:37:27.

Nor do I think that recent events in Iraq should be turned

:37:28.:37:30.

into a proxy debate about Tony Blair and everything that he has ever said

:37:31.:37:35.

or done. In any case,

:37:36.:37:38.

we have set up an inquiry in this House, into the Iraq war, and that

:37:39.:37:40.

inquiry will report in due course. Defence Select Committee, Rory

:37:41.:37:49.

Stewart. Welcome to the programme. We will

:37:50.:37:59.

come back to the issue of history and context and the 2003 invasion

:38:00.:38:04.

but can we concentrate for the moment on what is happening right

:38:05.:38:09.

now N your mind how much of a threat does Isis pose to the Middle East

:38:10.:38:13.

and in general, the world? Very considerable. It is great nightmare

:38:14.:38:18.

scenario. When people were talking about Iraq in 2007/8. They said a

:38:19.:38:24.

jihadist controlled failed state was what the entire operation was

:38:25.:38:29.

supposed to avoid and it is what we now have. Would it have happened if

:38:30.:38:44.

Sunnis in Iraq... That is that's a very good point. There is a lot of

:38:45.:38:52.

re-Septemberment against the Shia government. Malaki has been

:38:53.:38:58.

resistant to reaching out. In a hypothetical world you could imagine

:38:59.:39:01.

that happening but realistically there hasn't been much sign of that

:39:02.:39:04.

or much evidence that's the way things will go in the future. How

:39:05.:39:10.

well-funded and well-armed is ISIS. They now seem to be well-funded they

:39:11.:39:16.

have helped themselves to over $1 billion of cash. Even when they were

:39:17.:39:21.

operating on more of a shoe string, getting money from individual

:39:22.:39:24.

businessmen funneled through Kuwait or coming from Europe, they were

:39:25.:39:28.

proving effective and they must be much larger than some of the

:39:29.:39:30.

intelligence agencies were suggesting or they wouldn't be able

:39:31.:39:33.

to take a city of 2 million people. What about the state of the Iraqi

:39:34.:39:38.

Army? Very worrying again. We have been pumping an enormous amount of

:39:39.:39:43.

training and energy into making this Iraqi Army. $14 billion a year is

:39:44.:39:49.

spent on the Iraqi Army. It is one of the large armies per capital is

:39:50.:39:59.

it is not doing its job if we are talking about a collapsing army and

:40:00.:40:04.

are talking about ISIS forces coming closer, although it is reported they

:40:05.:40:07.

were held back outside of Baghdad. What exactly is the prospect of bag

:40:08.:40:16.

saying as a country or is it on the verge of collapse? It is difficult

:40:17.:40:21.

to predict. I don't think anyone saw this - predicted this four weeks

:40:22.:40:27.

ago. Why not? Western intelligence agencies criticised for failing to

:40:28.:40:29.

predict what might have happened. Why wasn't it seen We haven't been

:40:30.:40:33.

concentrating on Iraq, I think. That's all of us. Politicians, the

:40:34.:40:38.

media, think-tanks, we have been focussed on Syria and recently on

:40:39.:40:42.

Ukraine. We can now see over the last 12 months Isis has been

:40:43.:40:50.

developing in Iraq. And in Syria too But Mosul, almost 10% of the

:40:51.:40:54.

population there, if you'd suggested a group we had been told was 2,000,

:40:55.:40:59.

to 3,000 fighters would be able to do that, I don't think anyone would

:41:00.:41:03.

believe T where do we go in the future? You are right it'll increase

:41:04.:41:08.

the demand for an autonomous Sunni region. You back the idea of no

:41:09.:41:12.

intervention. That seems to be agreed across parties. What should

:41:13.:41:16.

be the British Government do? Firstly, understand the situations.

:41:17.:41:19.

I think your point is a really good one. We clearly have been taken

:41:20.:41:24.

aback by the speed of this. We need it get diplomats on the ground, more

:41:25.:41:27.

diplomats, more zwraunding more focus. And above all, we need to

:41:28.:41:34.

work out what we can do rather than saying what we ought to do. You are

:41:35.:41:40.

nodding Angus, the antiwar stance you and your party have taken, let's

:41:41.:41:44.

return to the comments made by Tony Blair. Is it really the right time

:41:45.:41:47.

to be going over recriminations that are made about what happened and

:41:48.:41:51.

uted reasons for the invasion in 2003 when we have a very serious

:41:52.:41:55.

situation here right now? Well, unless we get to the bottom of the

:41:56.:42:01.

stakes mistakes that have been made, there is possibility that we may

:42:02.:42:05.

repeat them. I'm glad there seems to be all-party consensus that military

:42:06.:42:08.

intervention is not the right thing but we have to learn the lessons. We

:42:09.:42:13.

don't have the conclusions of the Chilcot Inquiry. I think it is

:42:14.:42:16.

possible to do both things. I think we have to make sure we learn the

:42:17.:42:20.

lessons of what happened in the past. I endorse what Rory said on

:42:21.:42:23.

where we are now, we must understand what is going on. The forces behind

:42:24.:42:27.

the conflict and the potential for a full-on civil war between Sunni and

:42:28.:42:31.

Shi'ite and then not just in Iraq bus this goes across all kinds of

:42:32.:42:36.

borders, is absolutely calamitous and the ability of anybody of good

:42:37.:42:41.

faith, wherever in the international community, of having any impact is

:42:42.:42:44.

going to be very, very small. We have to invest what we can down the

:42:45.:42:49.

diplomatic rout. We have to make sure we are doing everything down

:42:50.:42:52.

the humanitarian route and it is only when we fully understand what

:42:53.:42:56.

is actually happening and how one could make a positive impact,

:42:57.:43:01.

increasingly through proximityies and neighbours that can exercise

:43:02.:43:05.

influence, that one can try to pull people back from the brink but it is

:43:06.:43:08.

important to understand potentially how calamitous. It is bad enough for

:43:09.:43:13.

those who have lost their lives and the hundreds of thousands of people

:43:14.:43:16.

who have had to leave Mosul and elsewhere, it is awful but it can

:43:17.:43:20.

get much worse and in pretty short order. What about Nouri Al-Maliki

:43:21.:43:30.

call for air strikes? Would you back that intersfrenges Washington?

:43:31.:43:34.

Absolutely not. It seems extraordinary to be advocating that

:43:35.:43:38.

in what is a civil war between two peating groups who have been

:43:39.:43:41.

competing for more than a Millennium. It is a complicated

:43:42.:43:46.

situation. It is Gilbert and Sullivan who warns statesmen not to

:43:47.:43:51.

interfere in matters that they do not understand. It is perfectly

:43:52.:43:54.

clear that people do not understand what happened is going on in

:43:55.:43:58.

#24r50es countries. One thing I would say, these appalling

:43:59.:44:01.

atrocities, the ordinary people who are in fear and now refugees,

:44:02.:44:06.

putting countries under pressure, which are already end prusure

:44:07.:44:10.

because of Syria, the most important thing we need to do is provide

:44:11.:44:14.

humanitarian aid and support to the countries. But it is also about

:44:15.:44:17.

bolstering some sort of Iraqi force to try to deal with it themselves?

:44:18.:44:24.

Yes, without underunderestimating how difficult it is going to be, it

:44:25.:44:29.

is a different situation than in 2007/8. We had over 00,000 soldiers

:44:30.:44:35.

t wasn't just done by air strikes. It didn't achieve a lasting

:44:36.:44:38.

solution, so we have to be realistic about what we can do. We need to be

:44:39.:44:42.

focussed on the fact that players like Russia Ian Iraq will try to

:44:43.:44:48.

exploited. But you sport idea of thawing relation was Iran and

:44:49.:44:51.

reopening the embassy in Tehran.. Don't get into the mindset that Iran

:44:52.:44:56.

is going to solve the situation. The Sunnis are angry about the Shias in

:44:57.:45:02.

Baghdad. Given Iran a big hand will not make the Sunni insurgents happy.

:45:03.:45:06.

In the end we will be taking sides to some extent if we are seen to

:45:07.:45:10.

boll stert Nouri Al-Maliki government, seen to be talking to

:45:11.:45:14.

Iran in more friendly terms than B as you said earlier, the sectarian

:45:15.:45:28.

rift that will only intensify. It is a matter which affects a number of

:45:29.:45:32.

countries in the Middle East and a number of our key allies. It is not

:45:33.:45:39.

something that can be solved by launching drones or engaging in

:45:40.:45:43.

military action. The consequences, the humanitarian consequences, will

:45:44.:45:49.

be awful. Even those people who have been subject to invasion now by

:45:50.:45:54.

these forces must be worrying about the counter offensive. And the

:45:55.:45:59.

brutality is unbelievable. We can't do very much, but what we

:46:00.:46:04.

can do in terms of what you are blind, we must do fairly quickly.

:46:05.:46:10.

In terms of the invasion in 2003, do you think that is now cladding our

:46:11.:46:15.

judgement? No, I think it is very useful to

:46:16.:46:20.

look at the lessons of that. It is not a very different situation now,

:46:21.:46:25.

to them. Similar players, similar insurgents. It would be foolish not

:46:26.:46:33.

to look at what we did. And to learn some humility from that.

:46:34.:46:38.

You were against the invasion in 2003, and like your party?

:46:39.:46:43.

I thought it would radicalise people in the Middle East and cause trouble

:46:44.:46:47.

on our own streets. You are in the Government of John

:46:48.:46:52.

Major during the first Gulf war. It was a different matter, the

:46:53.:46:56.

invasion of Kuwait. There is a doctrine of bringing democracy. You

:46:57.:47:02.

cannot democratise countries of the night. It was naive. Tony Blair's

:47:03.:47:09.

intervention has been unhelpful. He is in denial. Rory is right, there

:47:10.:47:14.

are lessons to be learned, for goodness sake, let us learn them.

:47:15.:47:24.

One reason to be anxious is we are relying on the Afghan National Army,

:47:25.:47:27.

saying if we train it properly, it will be fine. We said that about the

:47:28.:47:33.

Iraqi army four years ago. That is a reason to be concerned.

:47:34.:47:37.

Baroness Trumpington is one of the most adored characters in politics.

:47:38.:47:39.

And, at the age of 91, she's still going strong, regularly

:47:40.:47:42.

attending debates in the House of Lords, giving interviews to the

:47:43.:47:44.

Her book, Coming Up Trumps, tells the story of her fascinating life.

:47:45.:47:49.

Fom being a land girl during the Second World War,

:47:50.:47:51.

An advertising executive, a headmaster's wife.

:47:52.:47:54.

All that before a long career in politics, even serving as a minister

:47:55.:47:57.

Two years ago, she became

:47:58.:48:06.

Two years ago, a household name when, during a

:48:07.:48:07.

debate in the House of Lords, she stuck two fingers up at her

:48:08.:48:10.

remarks about her age! after he made some ill-advised

:48:11.:48:18.

Well, the clip was seen around the world, and won her a new army of

:48:19.:48:21.

fans. I went to her home to meet her, and I began by asking if she

:48:22.:48:25.

Oh, yes, very much so. He got what he deserved at the time. Did he see

:48:26.:48:40.

the joke? None of us knew that was going to happen.

:48:41.:48:44.

I thought I was doing it privately. I think he thought I was doing it

:48:45.:48:51.

privately. But, his relations in Australia said messages, how could

:48:52.:48:55.

you be so nasty to the lovely lady. Silly got told off by his own

:48:56.:49:00.

family. Did you regret swearing at him?

:49:01.:49:06.

No, he said people of my age were starting to look very old. Wouldn't

:49:07.:49:14.

you do that? What about you as a person? You seem

:49:15.:49:19.

to have a great sense of fun. Is that what has got you through?

:49:20.:49:24.

Something has got me through, I don't know what it is. I think I am

:49:25.:49:33.

terribly lucky. You see, I didn't owe anybody

:49:34.:49:39.

anything for having got where I got. So I think I was incredibly lucky.

:49:40.:49:45.

Did you love it in the House of Lords?

:49:46.:49:48.

Oh, yes, such a privilege, you know. And you learn so much about this

:49:49.:49:52.

country. One way or the other, there is always somebody who really knows

:49:53.:50:01.

what they are talking about. Really knows the situation. You always have

:50:02.:50:06.

somebody who has had practical experience. And you are a fall if

:50:07.:50:12.

you argue ignorantly against them, as some do.

:50:13.:50:16.

Did you ever fancy becoming an MP? Yes, I tried.

:50:17.:50:21.

I was much too difficult for them. On the Isle of Ely. And it ended up,

:50:22.:50:33.

they called me Mrs Baker all the way through, and I was too frightened to

:50:34.:50:38.

say I was Mrs Barker. They asked what I think. I've said, I think you

:50:39.:50:43.

are not going to make your MP, and I burst into tears.

:50:44.:50:47.

What about working with Margaret Thatcher? What was that like?

:50:48.:50:54.

Well, I took the view if she was going to sack me, she was going to

:50:55.:50:59.

sack me, so I had better be true to myself and set exactly what I

:51:00.:51:03.

thought. And if she sacked me, so what.

:51:04.:51:07.

Did you say what you thought to have?

:51:08.:51:10.

Exactly. And I think it was useful for her. She was terribly kind to

:51:11.:51:19.

me. I loved her dearly. I think she used me, because she

:51:20.:51:25.

knew I would not just say yes to something she had said. And that I

:51:26.:51:31.

would argue the matter. And it gave her ammunition on how to deal with

:51:32.:51:36.

other people. There was a poor man who sat between us at a dinner. And

:51:37.:51:43.

I started off by saying the Daily Mail is perfectly all right about

:51:44.:51:50.

mentally handicapped. Margaret barked, the Daily Mail is never

:51:51.:51:57.

right. Whereupon that started a verbal fisticuffs. This poor man

:51:58.:52:00.

thought we were going to hit each other. He had to sit in the middle

:52:01.:52:05.

of us, getting smaller and smaller. But that was the kind of thing that

:52:06.:52:08.

happened. That was the relationship you had.

:52:09.:52:15.

But you were friends? We work, to the last time I saw her.

:52:16.:52:20.

What about the current Prime Minister, do you like David Cameron?

:52:21.:52:25.

Let me put it this way. I don't think you know it Prime Minister

:52:26.:52:29.

terribly well, but I certainly knew his father very well, and I loved

:52:30.:52:35.

his father. And his mother. Heavenly people.

:52:36.:52:40.

How do you know them? We lived near each other. We were

:52:41.:52:48.

also very keen racing people, horse racing.

:52:49.:52:50.

Right, so you knew the family. And are you proud of him as a

:52:51.:52:56.

Conservative Prime Minister? Yes, of course. Do you think the

:52:57.:53:01.

Conservatives will still win the next election?

:53:02.:53:06.

I hope so, I hope so. We have got some jolly strong people, you know.

:53:07.:53:16.

And I am pro-Europe. I do think it is terribly important that we don't

:53:17.:53:23.

have a lot of people who haven't worked, who don't know Europe,

:53:24.:53:36.

worked with Europe, and are entirely island minded which I think is a

:53:37.:53:39.

mistake. So, the 20 17th issue, if the

:53:40.:53:46.

Conservatives are still in power, is that a good idea having a

:53:47.:53:49.

referendum? It is going to clear the air, I

:53:50.:53:55.

think. I instantly think that the Scots, if your name is Cameron, it

:53:56.:54:01.

must be difficult with the Scottish situation. And I think the Scots are

:54:02.:54:10.

really led by a madman, it is absolutely crazy what they are

:54:11.:54:15.

trying to do and I hope that their leader goes down, down, down.

:54:16.:54:21.

Politics, do you think it is changing for the better, how has it

:54:22.:54:26.

changed? Is it still a good thing? I don't know. I think it is hard. I

:54:27.:54:37.

am too near the, near what goes on in politics, to be able to judge

:54:38.:54:41.

that really, I think. What would I say? I think it has always been one

:54:42.:54:51.

party struggling against another, it always has been, taking the best

:54:52.:54:59.

advantage you can in a situation. And I do think, in this difficult

:55:00.:55:03.

time, we have got some pretty wonderful ministers are a wonderful

:55:04.:55:09.

Foreign Secretary, a wonderful Home Secretary. Those are pretty

:55:10.:55:15.

important jobs these days. I do think it is terribly difficult in

:55:16.:55:21.

this country, particularly with people coming in to an already

:55:22.:55:25.

crowded island. But you are still going to enjoy

:55:26.:55:33.

it, and life. And life. I get a hell of a kick out of

:55:34.:55:39.

talking to people I have never met before. And the police outside the

:55:40.:55:45.

house of lords are all my best friends. I probably shouldn't say

:55:46.:55:50.

that, probably get them all sacked. But I love them dearly. And they are

:55:51.:55:56.

nice to me. I like people who are nice to me, let us face it.

:55:57.:55:59.

Don't we all? Baroness Trumpington speaking to me

:56:00.:56:01.

earlier. Scotland being led by a madman?

:56:02.:56:12.

I thought, what an amazing person. What an amazing life she has led.

:56:13.:56:17.

Her views on Scottish politics are out of step with the realities and I

:56:18.:56:23.

am not sure the name-calling behoves anybody. But I think the interview

:56:24.:56:28.

was very nice, and you know her a lot better than I do. There are

:56:29.:56:35.

people there who have made a contribution in the House of Lords.

:56:36.:56:40.

Although their presence in a Chamber that is not elected doesn't seem to

:56:41.:56:44.

me to be the best way to do democracy. A very interesting

:56:45.:56:48.

person. Has she stuck two fingers up to you?

:56:49.:56:53.

I sat beside her on that bench and she made her views quite clear. She

:56:54.:56:59.

is in favour of legalising brothels, for example, in order to protect

:57:00.:57:05.

women. She has some radical views. She was talking about speaking her

:57:06.:57:13.

mind. She was a famous -- at a famous dinner where John Major fell

:57:14.:57:17.

at with Margaret Thatcher, and the attempt to call the atmosphere, she

:57:18.:57:22.

said, this is that chap, what you said if you minutes ago was

:57:23.:57:26.

brilliant. Margaret said, what did I say? She said, to be perfectly

:57:27.:57:31.

honest, I can't remember. Everyone fell about laughing. She has this

:57:32.:57:36.

honesty. A journalist rang her up about her book. They said, we would

:57:37.:57:42.

like you to comment. She said, I am not going to comment because I

:57:43.:57:45.

haven't read it and I didn't write it. Another teaser for you, what is

:57:46.:57:58.

Angela Merkel celebrating in this photo? Is it the prospect of John

:57:59.:58:04.

Paul Junker becoming president? It is Germany winning in the World Cup.

:58:05.:58:13.

There she is. With the whole team. Can you imagine any of the party

:58:14.:58:23.

leaders do that? Let us do the quiz now.

:58:24.:58:29.

What does the Education Secretary, Michael Gove, intend to ban

:58:30.:58:32.

Thanks to Michael Forsyth, Angus Robertson and all my guests today.

:58:33.:59:10.

to the cutting-edge science that's driving it,

:59:11.:59:16.

Horizon investigates one of the biggest mysteries

:59:17.:59:20.

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by former Scotland secretary Lord Forsyth and the SNP's Angus Robertson. As well as debating Scottish independence, they look at the new social attitudes survey on Britishness.


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