04/07/2014 Daily Politics


04/07/2014

With Andrew Neil. Former defence minister Nick Harvey discusses the new Royal Navy aircraft carrier and comedian Francesca Martinez talks about the People's Assembly.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Prime Minister's former Director of Communications has been sentenced

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to 18 months in prison for phone hacking. We'll bring you the latest

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reaction. A bottle of single malt whisky is

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about to be smashed against the hull of the Navy?s biggest ever warship.

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But is ?60 billion of aircraft carrier money well spent?

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"Stand Up Against Austerity." Can comedy win the argument over cuts?

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Comedian Francesca Martinez makes the case for taking the brakes off

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spending. And Hardeep Singh Kohli tells us why

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peace loving father-of-a-nation Mahatma Gandhi should be an

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inspiration for politicians around the world.

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I can only imagine if we had people with that for the loss of the --

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philosophy around in Palestine and Israel, there might be peace.

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All that and more coming up in the next hour of the very finest public

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service broadcasting. So the Prime Minister's former

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Director of Communications is on his way to prison. Andy Coulson has been

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sentenced to 18 months behind bars, having been found guilty of phone

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hacking last week. He was sentenced this morning, along with four

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co-defendants. Let's talk to our correspondent Robin Brant, who is at

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Did the judge say why he did not get the maximum sentence of two years?

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What he did was explain how he came to reaches decision. Andy Coulson

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has to take the major blame for hacking at the News of the World,

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said the judge, the cos it increased enormously during the period he was

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editor. -- because. He said he did not start it but he knew about it

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and he encouraged it as he felt as editor, it gave the paper a

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competitive edge. The cut -- before he passed sentence, the judge said

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the maximum he could give us two years and he said he was aiming

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close comments at those who may feel outrage she could not give more and

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those who may feel this is an attack on the press by the courts -- he

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could not. There was a focus on the most emotive case, the hacking of

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the phone of Milly Dowler in April 2002, the missing teenager. The News

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of the World targeted her phone and they accessed her voice mails but

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the judge said it was unforgivable that when they got the information,

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they did not tell the police for a 24 hour period. This was not about

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helping the police but about trying to sell newspapers. That is a

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glimpse into some of the reasons why the judge reached this decision.

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It is not over for him. He is being tried again another charges the jury

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could not come to a decision about, when will that start?

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We do not know. Possibly early next year. He is likely to be released

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from prison in April next year. Entitled to that, once he has served

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half his sentence, so he could be out in the middle of the general

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election campaign. Pictures of him from prison might not be what David

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Cameron wants to see. Both him and Clive Goodman will be retried over

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allegations of corrupt payments to police over internal phone

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directories. Police investigation is going to claims about more phone

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hacking, Sunday Mirror hacking as well, claims of computer hacking.

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The prospect of further legal action against Andy Coulson. He is inside

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being dealt with by the present service and Andy Coulson will leave

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this building in a prison van. But it is far from over in terms of time

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in court and further allegations he will face.

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We have had a reaction from the Prime Minister. He is in Scotland

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for the floating of this new aircraft carrier.

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It says it is right to justice is done and nobody is above the law, as

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I have always said. I guess he does not want to say any

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more than that. He will probably be in jail when the retrials begin. If

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he is sentenced on these retrials and found guilty, will the speak

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additional sentences or will they serve concurrently? -- will these

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be. The best I can do is explain what

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the sentence is for somebody convicted of misconduct in a public

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office. There has been a lot of sensitivity around this and

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subsequent trials. David Cameron got into a lot of trouble with the judge

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in the aftermath of the conviction of Andy Coulson last week. If you

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offer on to guilty, technically you face life in jail because it is

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known as, more offence. It is serious, police officers and other

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public officials have gone for six months, some less and others more.

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The issue is if he is found guilty, it will be the role he played as

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editor. A senior role, and that may be reflected. We are a long way from

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that and we do not know when this trial will take place. I was not in

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court at the time but a colleague was and Andy Coulson was asked to

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stand alongside the other four and I am told he was stored upright, there

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was a glance at a public gallery, but no visible reaction of the van

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that. That sounds like the expressionless face he had when

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convicted in this court over a week ago. -- reaction other than that.

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Barely any other expression on his face.

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I sentence you to staying on that street for the rest of this year!

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Not guilty. You are, you have been sentenced!

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Now, it's as long as the Houses of Parliament. At 65,000 tonnes, it?s

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Britain's biggest ever warship. In the next hour, the Queen will smash

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a bottle of the finest single malt whisky against her hull. Well, only

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the best will do. The Queen Elizabeth and her sister ship the

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Prince of Wales have already cost more than ?6 billion.

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Greg Miskiwi it is not a launch, they do not launch these ships, they

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float them -- it is not a launch. There is still a lot of of fitting

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out to be done. That is it, HMS Queen Elizabeth. That is what you

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get for about ?3 billion before counting the planes and the

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equipment. And it will need many sailors, more than we currently

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have. Robert Fox knows a lot about these things, what do you make about

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this? I know the outrage, currently ?6.2

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billion for the two ships and counting. But the Navy say ?6.2

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billion for a ship expected to be lasting 50 years. And it looks quite

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good at the price. The carrier concept I have sympathy with, the

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conception they came up with, it is a dog's breakfast from inception to

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the naming. About 15 years. It does raise some very serious questions.

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Did it really have to be this big? Did it really have to be this shape

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and require so much in terms of escort and ancillaries that she

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rightly referred to. I think the general agreement on both sides of

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the House is now we have the things, we had better use them. And there is

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a use. And we are joined now by former

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Defence Minister Nick Harvey. When I see the American equivalent,

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they are surrounded by other American naval ships. To form US

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battle fleets. Have we in off sweets to protect these carriers?

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We will struggle cos the fleet is small. -- have we got enough sweets.

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And if one of these was to be sunk, that is a lot of capacity that has

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gone. -- enough fleets. They will need crew. That is no small

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undertaking. It has taken a long time to get here, they were

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conceived in the 1988 Strategic Defence Review, it is another six

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years because they are in service. There are issues with the aircraft.

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The American aircraft which has had its problems. The engines just went

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on fire this week. They have had a succession of problems, but there is

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enough investment in it. But I agree with Robert, for all the problems,

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this is a happy day. We are going to make extensive use of these over 30,

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40 years, but probably in a quite different way from what George

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Robertson envisaged in 1988 when he thought it would be full of fighter

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jets which we cannot afford. We would be lucky if we have one third

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of the numbers he thought we would have.

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These are a great visual projection of power. You can project a lot of

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power with these but you also have two defend these, because if you

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lose these, it is the equivalent of the naval nine 11. July the 4th was

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the date of one of the biggest losses in World War II. The loss of

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a convoy. So you are right. That is where I am quite sanguine. If the

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Navy, and it is not very expensive... By the way, these are

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as cheap as chips compared with what the Americans spent on the

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equivalent. One third bigger. They need almost six times the crewing. I

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think the escort will be there, particularly if they get the type

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they wanted. Alex Salmond wants to hang on to that deal if Scotland

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goes independent. But they will use this in a context they did not

:11:51.:11:55.

devise. We do not want to fly aircraft to bomb Baghdad, they are

:11:56.:11:59.

dealing with points at the choke point like the red Sea, even the

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channel, where you have new kinds of threats. -- the English Channel. We

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are vulnerable in terms of maritime security. You mentioned the joint

:12:14.:12:20.

strikeforce. The capital cost is substantial but it seems we are not

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able to run two at one time and to put enough planes on them. Between

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them, these ships could take 36 each. I was told we would be lucky

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if we get 12 on one of them. They are working out 16 of their

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capacity, how does this make sense? The MoD are no longer talking about

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the original concept of carrier strike but carrier enabled power

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projection. What you will see is about 12 of the strike fighters,

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helicopters, and also unmanned aerial vehicles. And the roles they

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will be performing will be much more about getting people out of conflict

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zones, getting essential supplies into disaster zones. Literal

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manoeuvre rather than the heavy strike capability that Robert was

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describing. To carry marines. That is what it

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will be used for. And fly big helicopters off the deck at the same

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time. That is the real role of these things, but it is hardly being

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discussed. Starting from now, what would we

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have done this? No. We would have done something but

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it did not need to be on this scale. Don't the Spanish, they fly jumbo

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jets as we used to call them off the back of votes which are not aircraft

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carriers. -- ships. They fly from ships less than half this size and

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we have won them off smaller ships. -- loan them. We were originally

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going to fly conventional aircraft but that only survived a couple of

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years before the money men said we could not afford them. Nobody ever

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said, the emperor has no clothes, let's start again. But they will be

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magnificent, no doubt about it. The second one will be called Vince of

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Wales. -- music -- the Prince of Wales. We can see pictures of the

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Queen and the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary. And in the

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background, you can see to the other side of the Firth of Forth. You can

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see the road bridge and the railway bridge. The Red Arrows, I assume.

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aircraft carrier? The Labour frontbenchers are talking about it.

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It's nonsense. To make this work, you really have to have the second

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carrier. It is not particularly complicated. The maths is easy in

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order to do the training. If you want to use one ship, you have to

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have one in preparation to train the kids, do the ammunition, food,

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hospital and this that and the other. The real question is the Navy

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is by about 2,000 to 3,000 girls and boys too small. That is one of the

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real disasters of the 2010 defence review.

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They better start training. We leave it there. Big day for the Royal navy

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and the British taxpayer. The Queen will be floating this Queen

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Elizabeth aircraft carrier in the next couple of minutes.

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??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE next couple of minutes.

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??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE The watchdog that regulates the NHS

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in England, called Monitor, has been criticised this morning by MPs

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on the Public Accounts Committee. They've said it must get better

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at identifying NHS hospital trusts at risk of failure

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and highlighted the large proportion of foundation trusts that are

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in financial difficulties. Let's talk to our Political

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Correspondent, Norman Smith. Was this is surprise? It is. The MPs

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appear to have discovered Monitor could do with monitoring of its own

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performance. A quarter of Foundation Trusts are in financial trouble. The

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question is how on Earth did that come to pass if Monitor's meant to

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be on top of the situation and try to make sure that doesn't happen.

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Secondly, they are concerned about the way Monitor goes about its

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business. In particular, the fact it only has 1% of its staff, just

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seven, with any clinical background. Out of the 330 or so people who work

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for Monitor, just a tiny percentage have hands on experience of what on

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Earth goes on in hospitals. As a consequence of that, they are having

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to buy in people who have some know how about hospitals. The committee

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found Monitor is spending something like 20% of its budget on bringing

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in consultants to tell them about the nuts and bolts of running a

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hospital. Not surprisingly, the Labour chair woman of the Public

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Accounts Committee Margaret Hodge, was somewhat less than impressed.

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Monitor is supposed to protect the public in relation to these

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independence foundation Hospital Trusts. Yet, among their 340 or so

:17:48.:17:55.

staff, they only have seven who have any clinical experience at all. We

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found they are spending... 20% of their money on buying in people on

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consultancy fees because they haven't go the in-house staff. They

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have a real issue as to whether they have the skills and competence to

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support these foundation hospitals during a very difficult time when

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money is tight and when there isn't enough leadership talent to go round

:18:20.:18:23.

and fill the jobs. The monitor needs a monitor. Norman,

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Prime Minister's Questions, a lot of Argy bargey about statistics, A

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Waiting lists. Any further developments in this statistical

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battle? I think what we learnt is the old Winston Churchill saying,

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lies, damn lies and statistics! It is as relevant today as it was then.

:18:53.:18:57.

The House of Commons put up a blog raising the question mark about how

:18:58.:19:05.

David Cameron reached his figures. Downing Street were incensed that it

:19:06.:19:09.

was being questioned how he came up with these figures. Last night, the

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House of Commons official took down the blog saying Mr Cameron had

:19:15.:19:19.

confused mean waiting times with median waiting times. He'd confused

:19:20.:19:24.

waiting times for assessment with treatment. I got on to them this

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morning. I asked if they'd been put under pressure from Number Ten. They

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say not, they will be putting up a reviewed blog shortly. It tells us

:19:38.:19:41.

in the run up to the election how figures will be in the frontline of

:19:42.:19:46.

the Argy bargey. Not only have we had Downing Street getting laid into

:19:47.:19:50.

the House of Commons people over this set of figures, you think back

:19:51.:19:55.

earlier in the week when we had Ed Miliband and his launch of his

:19:56.:20:00.

measures to help growth outside of London and Downing Street got waded

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into him for coming up with figures which they said were not correct.

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Figures will be at the sharp end in the run up to the elections.

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Thank you for that. We all regard the House of Commons

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library as gospel. We'll look forward to what they are now going

:20:19.:20:25.

??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE ??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE

:20:26.:20:31.

He's the father of a nation who has inspired movements for civil rights

:20:32.:20:37.

And Mahatma Gandhi is also comedian Hardeep Sing Koli's

:20:38.:20:41.

Giles Dilnot's been finding out more about him.

:20:42.:21:00.

You know the thing about being a politician and wax figure in Madame

:21:01.:21:07.

Tussauds, you're only really relevant because you're in power.

:21:08.:21:11.

You're a here today, gone tomorrow politician unless you're a true icon

:21:12.:21:16.

There is one still relevant in 2014 even though he died in 1948. Mahatma

:21:17.:21:25.

Gandhi. Not only a prolific philosopher and writer. Because he

:21:26.:21:30.

lived that philosophy he changed the course of history for four

:21:31.:21:34.

countries, including our own. I'm off to meet a comedian and

:21:35.:21:41.

broadcaster who thinks Gandhi's influence goes even furthers than

:21:42.:21:47.

that. We leave this bizarre little man

:21:48.:21:52.

whose coming has caused so much comment complete with loin cloth and

:21:53.:21:56.

goats milk. You've brought me to Bow. We're

:21:57.:22:02.

talking about Gandhi. He was here in 1931 for a huge conference. Loads of

:22:03.:22:07.

countries part of the empire invited. It is up in the West End

:22:08.:22:11.

and he's here. That epitomised the man. He was offered to stay with the

:22:12.:22:17.

king but he decided to come to the gritty East End to the real people.

:22:18.:22:22.

That Martian him out from other great states men and leaders. He

:22:23.:22:28.

travelled around the country listening to people about their

:22:29.:22:32.

needs, worries and concerns. I'd like to think we could all carry an

:22:33.:22:37.

element of that. Speaking for people who cannot have their voices heard.

:22:38.:22:42.

It is a powerful message. They have his room here kept as was. Would you

:22:43.:22:49.

like to have a look? I have a loin cloth, goats milk and spinning top

:22:50.:22:56.

for you. Mr Gandhi will be able to meet friends, talks when he likes,

:22:57.:23:02.

just as we do. This is the balcony. He was staying in 1931, pretty much

:23:03.:23:09.

as we've seen. This is Mahatma Gandhi's room. Defined by its

:23:10.:23:14.

simplicity. Few cushions on the floor. He slept there. His spinning

:23:15.:23:19.

wheel. Like a prison cell which is apt considering how much time he did

:23:20.:23:25.

spend in prison. What do you think is his basic philosophy? India in

:23:26.:23:29.

the forties, incredibly February rile. A war was being fought around

:23:30.:23:36.

the reported. India had a choice, to have an around uprising or find

:23:37.:23:41.

another way. Gandhi found another way. People think it was passive but

:23:42.:23:46.

it wasn't. Gandhi and the rest walked up to the line and were

:23:47.:23:50.

battered down by the sticks of the Indian members of the British Army.

:23:51.:23:54.

They went back the next day and were battered down again. I think what

:23:55.:23:59.

Gandhi showed is there's only so many times you can hit a man with a

:24:00.:24:03.

stick before you realise it is pointless, you're losing the moral

:24:04.:24:08.

argument. That's the point. Once you wage an armed conflict you lose the

:24:09.:24:12.

morality of the argument. He never lost that. All that influence is

:24:13.:24:16.

demonstrated in paperwork from the British. They don't know how to deal

:24:17.:24:22.

with him. I can show you documents which prove it. Dr Elizabeth Fraser

:24:23.:24:28.

from Oxford University says Gandhi had many ideas which influenced

:24:29.:24:35.

Indian politics. It is a follows if I of non-violence. It has several

:24:36.:24:42.

elements to it. First, he's very worried about state power laws and

:24:43.:24:48.

policing which he thinks will always have to use violence. Secondly, of

:24:49.:24:56.

course, he sees the British imperialism as a arc typically

:24:57.:25:00.

violent, oppressive system. He thinks the only way to answer

:25:01.:25:11.

violence is with non-violent rest Is fence tb -- resistance.

:25:12.:25:22.

Got it. Let's look at this. This is basically at the national archives.

:25:23.:25:27.

Records of what the Government were making of Gandhi's campaign for

:25:28.:25:33.

Indian independence. In 1940, they are all just reporting back his

:25:34.:25:40.

intransigence, if you like. It's very clear it's independence or

:25:41.:25:45.

nothing. By 1943, they've just arrested saying he can't

:25:46.:25:49.

correspondent with begin in a, the founder of Pakistan. They won't let

:25:50.:25:53.

him talk to him. It is clear Gandhi's crucial to Indian

:25:54.:25:56.

independence. But it is not India he wants that he gets. I believe

:25:57.:26:01.

without Gandhi there would be no independent India. He was

:26:02.:26:04.

instrumental to the entire process. What's not as well known is the work

:26:05.:26:10.

he was doing in terms of keeping the internal body politic coherent,

:26:11.:26:15.

stopping the factional violence between the Hindus and Muslims. It

:26:16.:26:20.

was a dying regret partings occurred. But what's fascinating

:26:21.:26:25.

about Gandhi is he managed all this change, all this influence without

:26:26.:26:30.

being a formal politician. He never held office. It might sound cheesy.

:26:31.:26:35.

I'm taking you to an Indian restaurant but there is a point to

:26:36.:26:40.

it. I don't really like all that foreign muck! See why? Come on in.

:26:41.:26:50.

Hardeep, I've brought to Gandhi's restaurant. It is not just a name.

:26:51.:26:57.

This is frequented by Prime Ministers, Gordon Brown, Alistair

:26:58.:27:01.

Darling. Prime Minister of Bangladesh. Does Gandhi have any

:27:02.:27:07.

relevance to modern politics? There isn't an international figure in

:27:08.:27:11.

recent history who's had a greater impact on politics. If you trace the

:27:12.:27:16.

line from Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, what's been happening

:27:17.:27:21.

recently in Burma, the passive resistance, not stepping down, but

:27:22.:27:26.

neither stepping too far up, has proven to work time and time again.

:27:27.:27:35.

I only imagine if we'd people with that ganged eian philosophy warned

:27:36.:27:39.

in Palestine and Israel, there might be peace there. There may not have

:27:40.:27:45.

been a genocide in Rwanda. No Crimean situation now. But, really,

:27:46.:27:51.

I think, what we should do to honour Mahatma Gandhi, is have a small

:27:52.:27:56.

vegetarian Indian snack. I'm not going to tell you how to eat it.

:27:57.:28:05.

Last thing I'll do is give you a pop a Dom don't preach... But #50i78'

:28:06.:28:09.

keeping the baby. It was going very well till the end.

:28:10.:28:16.

Well the economy seems to have bounced back but our public finances

:28:17.:28:19.

We're still spending ?107 billion a year more than we can afford

:28:20.:28:23.

and we're less than halfway through the planned cuts.

:28:24.:28:26.

Not everyone is in favour of sticking with that programme though

:28:27.:28:28.

and next week some of Britain's best known comics will be taking to the

:28:29.:28:32.

And we're joined now by Francesca Martinez who will be

:28:33.:28:35.

taking part in the "stand up to austerity" and by Harry

:28:36.:28:38.

I'll be at the Apollo on 7th July. You should come because it is

:28:39.:28:45.

supporting the People's Assembly which is this huge movement at grass

:28:46.:28:55.

roots level looking to change the way that the austerity is happening.

:28:56.:29:15.

Looking for an to that. There will be loads of brilliant comics. It

:29:16.:29:20.

will be for a marvellous cause. You can console yourself with the fact

:29:21.:29:20.

you've done some. All you will have done is go to a gig and done

:29:21.:29:21.

nothing, really! On 7th July it will be up against austerity. On 7th,

:29:22.:29:22.

Francesca Martinez will be there. I advise you to go. I endorse it as a

:29:23.:29:23.

concept and as a cause. And we're joined now by

:29:24.:29:28.

Francesca Martinez who will be taking part in the

:29:29.:29:30.

"stand up to austerity" and by Harry We've had austerity for years? We

:29:31.:29:44.

need to fight it. 80% of the cuts have not come in yet. It is really

:29:45.:29:48.

important we stand up against it now. Let's not kid ourselves.

:29:49.:29:55.

Austerity is not about money. It is about bringing in a near liberal

:29:56.:30:02.

agenda dominated by corporate interests. I think it's really

:30:03.:30:05.

important we challenge that rhetoric. Cameron said recently that

:30:06.:30:12.

we were having permanent austerity which proves it's about ideology and

:30:13.:30:19.

not money. If it was about money, they would be regulating the banking

:30:20.:30:29.

sector to ensure a crash never happens again. Instead, that's been

:30:30.:30:42.

left largely untouched. We have not really had austerities yet and we

:30:43.:30:45.

never really will. The government has been spending aliens this year

:30:46.:30:51.

and at the end of the government -- the Labour government, they were

:30:52.:30:57.

spending less. The debt has hit ?1.3 trillion. Why are we not talking

:30:58.:31:03.

about that? If you want to talk about protesting about future and

:31:04.:31:06.

fairness, how is saddling people not born yet with thousands of debt for

:31:07.:31:13.

our spending now fair? The problem is not money, there is always money

:31:14.:31:18.

for war, why? There is always money to bail out banks and four MP pay

:31:19.:31:28.

rises. They voted on an 11% pay rise.

:31:29.:31:33.

Actually, they have not. They tried hard! They did not say, there is no

:31:34.:31:41.

money for a pay rise. So when it suits the government, they find it.

:31:42.:31:48.

If you want to create more money in this world, there is a what we can

:31:49.:31:56.

do. We can tackle the ?120 billion tax gap that we currently have. We

:31:57.:32:01.

could introduce a living wage which would ensure working people do not

:32:02.:32:08.

have to be on benefit -- benefits. Only 3% of people on benefits are

:32:09.:32:13.

unemployed. Welfare is not the issue. But welfare is being

:32:14.:32:18.

demonised to justify the cuts. And as a taxpayer, I am totally proud to

:32:19.:32:29.

fund welfare, the NHS, education, I am not proud to fund legal wars,

:32:30.:32:32.

that is what should be demonised. She is right, there is always money

:32:33.:32:40.

around. Even borrowing ?107 billion seems a lot but interest rates are

:32:41.:32:43.

low and despite the fact the government has not cut the deficit

:32:44.:32:48.

by anything like it said it would, the economy is growing again,

:32:49.:32:53.

employment is growing, so the original strategy might not have

:32:54.:32:56.

been right. There is a ticking time bomb, they

:32:57.:33:02.

are not addressing the debt and we are living on borrowed time. Unless

:33:03.:33:06.

we radically address the situation and we do not just tinker around. We

:33:07.:33:13.

are over five years proposing a 3.9% reduction in state spending in real

:33:14.:33:17.

terms, the same amount Denis Healy did in the 1970s in one year. These

:33:18.:33:23.

are not radical cuts, which are tinkering. -- we are tinkering. We

:33:24.:33:30.

should be taking out departments. If you want to address the economy

:33:31.:33:34.

and make sure the crash never happens again, you have to change

:33:35.:33:38.

this economic system which is fundamentally unjust. It benefits an

:33:39.:33:49.

elite few. You tell the 1 million people who use food banks the cuts

:33:50.:34:01.

are tinkering. There is going to be a what more trouble than that. -- a

:34:02.:34:08.

lot more. If we do not address the financial situation. You say we want

:34:09.:34:11.

to regulate the city so it cannot happen again, the city is creating

:34:12.:34:19.

the wealth that pays the series. -- the taxes. It remains in the hands

:34:20.:34:24.

of vinyl beat a few. It pays for the NHS and the public services. -- an

:34:25.:34:32.

elite few. The NHS is being privatised because private health

:34:33.:34:37.

funds the Tory party. That is how policy works.

:34:38.:34:41.

We will have to leave it. It is time to look at what is going on in

:34:42.:34:43.

European politics. MEPs elected in May have met for the

:34:44.:34:48.

first time in Strasbourg this week. In a moment, we'll be joined by two

:34:49.:34:51.

of them in the studio. First though, here's our guide to the latest from

:34:52.:34:55.

Europe, in just 60 seconds. The week's most awkward phone call,

:34:56.:35:08.

as the Prime Minister congratulates Jean-Claude Juncker on his new job,

:35:09.:35:12.

despite spending week is trying to prevent him. The Parliament began

:35:13.:35:18.

the session with Beethoven's Ode to Joy, the anthem of the EU. Most MEPs

:35:19.:35:27.

looked two way, UKIP, the other. While UKIP think the EU is rubbish,

:35:28.:35:31.

the European Commission is talking rubbish. The commission has proposed

:35:32.:35:36.

councils will have to recycle 70% of household waste by the end of next

:35:37.:35:40.

decade. Better news for David this week

:35:41.:35:45.

after Germany backed plans to back migrants sending child benefits

:35:46.:35:50.

abroad. And who is this smoothly? Matteo Ramsey is the new Italian

:35:51.:35:54.

Prime Minister who says the continent is moving at half the

:35:55.:35:57.

speed of the rest of the world, so time to move on, Pronto!

:35:58.:36:06.

And with us for the next 30 minutes, I've been joined by the Conservative

:36:07.:36:11.

Ian Duncan and Labour's Jude Kirton-Darling. Welcome to the

:36:12.:36:13.

programme. Let's just pick up on the comments made by the Italian Prime

:36:14.:36:17.

Minister, Matteo Renzi, that we saw at the end of that clip there.

:36:18.:36:22.

That it is time to end austerity, is it? Is it going to happen? I think

:36:23.:36:31.

it is fundamental we see a change in direction at European level. This

:36:32.:36:35.

leads neatly from the discussion you are having about the UK. If we look

:36:36.:36:42.

across Europe, austerity has been extremely counter-productive in a

:36:43.:36:45.

lot of countries. Fran?ois Alonso was elected to bring

:36:46.:36:53.

an end to it -- Francois Hollande. France is now in a worse state than

:36:54.:37:04.

any other European economy. Figures suggest there is no growth, so why

:37:05.:37:09.

did he fail? Because we have not seen that change at European level.

:37:10.:37:13.

We saw one President elected in France but we did not see a change

:37:14.:37:19.

in the overall strategy at European level. What we need is to seek a

:37:20.:37:25.

change in the EU strategy and a posh in terms of investment and growth.

:37:26.:37:32.

-- eight posh. Labour are calling for concrete measures to put forward

:37:33.:37:36.

growth and job creation because we still have catastrophic levels of

:37:37.:37:40.

unemployment across Europe. Would that make a difference?

:37:41.:37:45.

Austerity is causing serious problems in Europe but the Eurozone

:37:46.:37:51.

is causing real problems around the Mediterranean countries. Youth

:37:52.:37:54.

unemployment above 50%. Unless you can get a serious adjustment,

:37:55.:37:59.

generations will be lost. What would that be? The Eurozone has

:38:00.:38:04.

to adjust. You have got to allow some sense of freedom. Allow

:38:05.:38:09.

devaluation, potentially countries we focusing and building themselves

:38:10.:38:14.

back up. You cannot have that unless they

:38:15.:38:16.

read. If you do not do that, you are just

:38:17.:38:21.

hoping inside that lifeboat will be survival. -- they leave. I think

:38:22.:38:24.

there will be starvation. Now, we're all used to a left-wing

:38:25.:38:29.

and right-wing divide in politics. But after the recent European

:38:30.:38:32.

elections in which anti-establishment parties made big

:38:33.:38:34.

gains, are the new division lines in European politics now between

:38:35.:38:37.

europhiles and eurosceptics? The European Parliament is still

:38:38.:38:39.

dominated by the two big traditional political groupings. The EPP, the

:38:40.:38:42.

European People's Party who have 29% of the seats, and S, the

:38:43.:38:45.

Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats, who have 25% of the

:38:46.:38:47.

seats. Although these groupings are on opposite sides of the political

:38:48.:38:58.

spectrum, the EPP on the centre-right and the S on the

:38:59.:39:00.

centre-left, they definitely have one thing in common. They are both

:39:01.:39:03.

very pro-European. But their European love-in faces a threat,

:39:04.:39:08.

after voters returned a significant numbers of MEPs from Eurosceptic

:39:09.:39:15.

parties such as UKIP, France's National Front and Italy's Five Star

:39:16.:39:18.

Movement. So the traditional rivals of European politics have got

:39:19.:39:22.

together and negotiated a grand coalition with themselves and the

:39:23.:39:26.

Liberal grouping ALDE to prevent the EU's programme being derailed, and

:39:27.:39:31.

the dividing lines in the European Parliament were on show from the

:39:32.:39:35.

very first debate a few days ago. The Eurosceptics are the

:39:36.:39:49.

progressives. These two gentleman had nothing to say today, it was the

:39:50.:39:58.

usual dull, looking back, invented 50 years ago, and we want democracy,

:39:59.:40:02.

we want nation state, we want a global future for our countries, not

:40:03.:40:07.

to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you.

:40:08.:40:14.

What are you doing here? I heard the speech of the Leader of the

:40:15.:40:17.

Opposition in the House of Commons. If you want to be considered as the

:40:18.:40:20.

leader of the European political group, make speeches of eight

:40:21.:40:25.

political European leader, thank you. -- apolitical.

:40:26.:40:30.

We are joined now by the UKIP MEP Tim Aker.

:40:31.:40:34.

Is Eurosceptic and Europhile the dividing line?

:40:35.:40:41.

It is business as usual. Some are challenging the big rocks. We have

:40:42.:40:50.

formed a democracy group and you could hear applause. There is a

:40:51.:40:56.

movement away from the old Moore Europe and more integration, it is

:40:57.:41:00.

coming on in stages but it is a trend that will continue at the next

:41:01.:41:04.

elections because it cannot go on. Is he right? The centre-left

:41:05.:41:11.

grouping is a coalition with the centre-right because although you

:41:12.:41:16.

disagree on individual policies, what unites you is a strong European

:41:17.:41:18.

feel. What we are there to do is to defend

:41:19.:41:24.

the people who have elected us to go to the European Parliament.

:41:25.:41:28.

Implement the programme we have committed to. In the north-east

:41:29.:41:32.

where I stood, it was during game investment, creating jobs in a place

:41:33.:41:38.

with the highest employment -- unemployment in the country. --

:41:39.:41:44.

bringing in investment. It is not opposition government, it is ELT on

:41:45.:41:48.

alliances and they need to work. You have joined a group that is

:41:49.:41:55.

Federalist. -- it is built on. The EU has to work for the people of

:41:56.:41:59.

Britain. Are you Federalist? Not especially. I think we are stronger

:42:00.:42:07.

together. That is the issue. The Labour group is explicitly

:42:08.:42:12.

Federalist, are you Federalist? I would say that I believe that

:42:13.:42:19.

Europeans working together are better off than nation state is

:42:20.:42:21.

trying to poll behind national lines. So you are Federalist. I am

:42:22.:42:28.

quite pro-European and I am proud of that. You have not answered my

:42:29.:42:33.

question. I think it is a false debate. It is not a dictatorship, as

:42:34.:42:41.

UKIP present. Where are the Conservatives in this? Isolated. The

:42:42.:42:47.

Conservatives are part of the third-largest group. A group which

:42:48.:42:53.

believes in reform. We were the only serious opposition of the stitch up

:42:54.:42:59.

whereby Jean-Claude Juncker got the presidency of the commission. But

:43:00.:43:04.

none of your allies, the German Christian Democrats, the French UMP,

:43:05.:43:11.

the Spanish Conservatives, none of these, your natural allies in

:43:12.:43:15.

Europe, or in your group. The reality is that they believe in

:43:16.:43:22.

reform and only we can deliver that. Would you want to have dinner with

:43:23.:43:27.

them? I had dinner with them several times.

:43:28.:43:30.

Should you not to choose your company more carefully?

:43:31.:43:33.

They believe in reform. When it comes to a battle between the

:43:34.:43:40.

Eurosceptics and the strongly pro-European or most federalist on

:43:41.:43:44.

the other side of the other groups, where are you? UKIP are going to

:43:45.:43:49.

turn their back on Europe as they did in the anthem. Federalism is not

:43:50.:43:54.

what we are for, we believe we can make Europe work. But it has to be

:43:55.:44:00.

serious reform and we are the only party that can deliver a referendum

:44:01.:44:03.

to give people the choice. Where does UKIP go because although the

:44:04.:44:10.

anti-European parties did very well in the European elections, when you

:44:11.:44:17.

put together the centre-right, the centre-left and the liberal

:44:18.:44:20.

grouping, you are still outnumbered and you do not all agree.

:44:21.:44:26.

The questioner who took my daughter task, what are you doing here if you

:44:27.:44:30.

oppose this? -- who took Nigel to task. That is the mindset. There

:44:31.:44:38.

were more spoilt papers that your candidate got in the elections. We

:44:39.:44:43.

want nothing to do with this. We got 100 votes, we got beyond our

:44:44.:44:50.

numbers, which is quite impressive. We are isolated because we are not

:44:51.:44:55.

willing to do cosy deals. We are not able to build alliances and at

:44:56.:45:00.

European level, you have to do that to reform. If you are going to give

:45:01.:45:05.

up on your principles, you can do what you did. He called it a free

:45:06.:45:13.

and open election but it was not, there was no EPP candidate, that is

:45:14.:45:18.

a cosy stitch up. There were five candidates and it was a secret

:45:19.:45:23.

ballot and anybody could vote. The EPP did not put up a candidate and

:45:24.:45:29.

they are the August group in -- the biggest group. You still outnumbered

:45:30.:45:33.

in the European Parliament. You are part of the group in which the

:45:34.:45:38.

British Labour Party does not agree with its policies, and you are not

:45:39.:45:44.

part of anything. We the third biggest group. You cannot swing

:45:45.:45:48.

anything, you are outnumbered by the three centre groups. For as long the

:45:49.:45:53.

Labour Party believes it should be Federalist minded, we will have a

:45:54.:45:57.

problem. We believe it is about reforming the EU. Building

:45:58.:46:03.

alliances. So you agree with me. No, it is what you define as reform.

:46:04.:46:09.

What is your most important reform? I would like a real commitment, use

:46:10.:46:14.

unemployment at the top of the programme. That is a programme. --

:46:15.:46:19.

youth unemployment. How would you like to reform Europe? It is about

:46:20.:46:24.

redressing the balance. They put employment issues in the last

:46:25.:46:29.

commission and they have been at the bottom of the pile, it has been

:46:30.:46:34.

about this ghost ability. Start on our own house, stop the circus that

:46:35.:46:42.

travels to Strasbourg every month. Save the hundreds of millions that

:46:43.:46:43.

represents. leader of my political group in the

:46:44.:46:59.

European Parliament. I didn't vote Conservative. He was the candidate,

:47:00.:47:01.

the leader of my group. So, after that 26-2 defeat

:47:02.:47:06.

on the election of Jean Claude Junker as Commission

:47:07.:47:08.

President and UKIP's success in the European Parliament elections

:47:09.:47:10.

what does the rest of Europe think of Britain and its prospects

:47:11.:47:13.

as a member of the European Union? By the magic of television

:47:14.:47:16.

Giles Dilnot's been able to talk to If you reflect on it, members ship

:47:17.:47:32.

of the European Union has not been conjured out of nowhere. However

:47:33.:47:37.

warped the debate gets our leaving the whole show has been rising up

:47:38.:47:42.

the agenda. Not only do lots of country think it's a difficult trick

:47:43.:47:46.

to pull off but it is the kind of magic you shouldn't even attempt. It

:47:47.:47:52.

is very important Britain stays in the EU. And in Austria, we think

:47:53.:47:59.

it's only a threat from Britain it will leave. Mr Cameron will show us

:48:00.:48:11.

how important he is in Europe we take it as a joke. After the

:48:12.:48:16.

European elections, nearly half the old MEPs have transformed into new

:48:17.:48:20.

ones. As a result of attitudes here and elsewhere, it is worth flagging

:48:21.:48:24.

up for Britain and many of the other 28 member states their con tingents

:48:25.:48:31.

are now more eurosceptic than ever. Debating our exit is a good thing

:48:32.:48:35.

and also very revealing. It is not a joke. It is a big issue. Whatever

:48:36.:48:40.

the British decide to do it is significant for all. It is not

:48:41.:48:45.

harmful for the EU. It is helpful for the EU to know we are not locked

:48:46.:48:51.

in. We can exit if we want to. It's even better that a big country like

:48:52.:48:56.

Britain has taken up these issues of reform and even possible exit if the

:48:57.:49:02.

EU continues on this path of federalism. But many Europeans see

:49:03.:49:06.

Britain as descending into the dark arts. The official awkward squad

:49:07.:49:13.

making tactical threats. Then they think, well, maybe they are

:49:14.:49:17.

blackmailing us. Is it worth it. Or maybe they think, can we conceive of

:49:18.:49:23.

the European Union without the UK? The answer to that, if you ask it

:49:24.:49:28.

often enough, yes. The costs would be very high both ways round. A

:49:29.:49:35.

terrible loss of prestige. What that really reveals to those who want to

:49:36.:49:42.

map you out Britain's future is we can leave without each other. But

:49:43.:49:48.

when you see the gap, it's something everyone a would want to reconsider.

:49:49.:49:52.

I'm one of those who thinks it could work better. Be careful what you

:49:53.:49:58.

wish for. Be careful of destroying something that has taken wars to

:49:59.:50:02.

create and peace to stabilise. Do you want to be the political group

:50:03.:50:06.

that pulled it apart when others look to Europe as being the envy of

:50:07.:50:11.

democracy, modernisation, freedom, liberty and free movement. For those

:50:12.:50:18.

who are transparently pro-European, this strike tearily debate appears

:50:19.:50:23.

to disstrict. Eurosceptic voters need to know where that leaves those

:50:24.:50:29.

who want out. All the voters need to understand they have no influence.

:50:30.:50:35.

They are not part of the discussions in the committees where we are

:50:36.:50:40.

talking about creating rules, financial sector stab I willisation.

:50:41.:50:44.

There's no participation of these groups. They getting money for doing

:50:45.:50:51.

nothing. In one sense, it doesn't really matter what other countries

:50:52.:50:55.

think. If we have a referendum and if we vote no, like that, we're

:50:56.:51:05.

gone. How big an issue is it with other

:51:06.:51:09.

Europeans in the European Parliament of the possibility of Britain's

:51:10.:51:15.

departure? It's been discussed now. This Parliament is one which is

:51:16.:51:20.

different from the past. The general consensus is it is different. There

:51:21.:51:25.

is a mood for reform and change. There's the Rec negligence Britain

:51:26.:51:29.

is pushing for that. I think many other countries want that same

:51:30.:51:32.

reform. It is not just about what Britain wants. It is about what the

:51:33.:51:38.

rest of Europe wants as well. We have to listen to people who put us

:51:39.:51:42.

into that Parliament. They want something different. If everyone

:51:43.:51:48.

shouted for reform, why can't a consensus emerge and we proceed?

:51:49.:51:53.

Fundamentally, we're talking about different of reforms. There are some

:51:54.:51:57.

things we clearly agree. Stopping the charade of us all trooping down

:51:58.:52:01.

to Strasbourg and making one seat for the Parliament. That makes

:52:02.:52:05.

complete sense. You know that's not going to change? . That would take

:52:06.:52:09.

David Cameron going into negotiation with other leaders and being able to

:52:10.:52:15.

build an alliance for that. An alliance would make no difference.

:52:16.:52:21.

The French would just veto it. You find ways of finding a compromise

:52:22.:52:26.

which could work forthe French. Those reforms are actually in the

:52:27.:52:29.

hands of the European council. Many of the things in the European

:52:30.:52:35.

Parliament are more policy reforms. Redirecting where the focus is in

:52:36.:52:39.

terms of growth, in terms of investment, in terms of employment.

:52:40.:52:46.

Could you get this biggest spending in Europe is still the Common

:52:47.:52:50.

Agricultural Policy. Not as big as it was but still the biggest. Would

:52:51.:52:56.

reform include getting that money being spent on infrastructure, job

:52:57.:53:02.

creation, modernising Europe? If you look at how the negotiations over

:53:03.:53:08.

how the budget was placed, Monet fecked things like broadband, to

:53:09.:53:12.

shore up the French needs for farming. It is not just about

:53:13.:53:16.

maintaining how things have been in the past. We have to get things more

:53:17.:53:19.

focussed. No idea the number of times I've

:53:20.:53:24.

been told that. Maybe one day it will happen. Snell

:53:25.:53:29.

How big an issue is it with other Europeans in the European Parliament

:53:30.:53:32.

of the possibility of Britain's departure? It's been discussed now.

:53:33.:53:34.

This Parliament is one which is different from the past. The general

:53:35.:53:48.

The biggest thing which surprised me on my travels in Euroland is the

:53:49.:53:54.

number of British people I've bumped into. In the Hague, the head of euro

:53:55.:54:00.

poll. In Switzerland, the EU's ambassador. And in Brussels, Mrs

:54:01.:54:07.

Evans. She overseas fish. When people are talking to you, they

:54:08.:54:12.

don't say, she's a British person. They are talking to you as the woman

:54:13.:54:17.

in charge of fisheries policy or state aid. They are not saying, she

:54:18.:54:23.

is a British person. It's not really the primary thing. Is it useful for

:54:24.:54:28.

Whitehall having you in this job? Is there a little back channel there?

:54:29.:54:35.

There's no back channel. I will talk to anybody that wants to talk to me.

:54:36.:54:40.

The problem is, there are a lot of senior people reaching the end of

:54:41.:54:45.

long EU careers and not enough Jones who's starting her as an assistant

:54:46.:54:50.

in the IT department of the European Commission. Since I've been here,

:54:51.:54:54.

I'm probably one of a handful of Brits that I've known over the last

:54:55.:55:00.

18 months. Mainly my colleagues are from lots of different European

:55:01.:55:03.

countries. And, of course, that was part of the appeal of coming to work

:55:04.:55:09.

here. The mix of people and cultures and I find that really interesting.

:55:10.:55:14.

And that's the story the statistics tell too. For simplicity let's look

:55:15.:55:19.

at the commission where Joanne works. The number of UK nationals

:55:20.:55:24.

employed there has fallen by 24% over the last seven years which

:55:25.:55:29.

means now just 4.5% of the staff are British. The UK makes up 12.5% of

:55:30.:55:35.

the population of the EU. So, as a nation, we're seriously

:55:36.:55:38.

underrepresented. A situation one British EU official told me is a

:55:39.:55:42.

catastrophe. That's how they see it here at the

:55:43.:55:45.

Foreign Office in London too. So much so, earlier this year, they

:55:46.:55:49.

launched a new drive to get more people thinking of careers as EU

:55:50.:55:58.

civil servants. There's a whole office dedicated to getting people

:55:59.:56:02.

working in Whitehall to Brussels. But what's the EU really like as an

:56:03.:56:07.

employer? Do you find yourself going home and being an advocate of the

:56:08.:56:17.

EU? Absolutely. 100%. Is this a fun place to work? We don't have fun,

:56:18.:56:25.

you know. We have job satisfaction! We've neither here sclachlt The

:56:26.:56:33.

position of European Commission working for Jean-Claude Juncker. Who

:56:34.:56:40.

will it be? I put my money on Malcolm Rifkind. Malcolm Rifkind?

:56:41.:56:45.

Yeah, former Foreign Secretary. You'd probably win a by-election in

:56:46.:56:50.

Kensington. The important thing is to get the ride man up for the job.

:56:51.:56:58.

He's not up for the job. I've heard his name talked about. News to me.

:56:59.:57:04.

From our perspective it is the Government who decides. So bound to

:57:05.:57:10.

be a Tory? You'd guess unless Nick Clegg wants a platinum balloon out

:57:11.:57:13.

of the coalition, I'm guessing it will be a Tory. Provacative! Whoever

:57:14.:57:20.

it is, we hope it is somebody able to build those alliances at European

:57:21.:57:23.

level and we'll work with them. What would be a good portfolio for them

:57:24.:57:31.

to get? There's quite a ripe choice. An economic Nd one! The British have

:57:32.:57:36.

always gone for internal market. We've not managed to get it tube to

:57:37.:57:40.

our position from other countries up to now. There are big issues in the

:57:41.:57:45.

future around energy, climate change. There are lots of key

:57:46.:57:51.

issues. Which would you like and the British commissioner to get?

:57:52.:57:56.

Internal market would make a difference but trade. It will be

:57:57.:58:02.

important to trade internal markets. These trade agreements are not going

:58:03.:58:09.

well at the moment? They've been bogged down. We need to get them

:58:10.:58:14.

moving. You can create growth and jobs.

:58:15.:58:18.

Peter Mandelson took the prey seriously? He did. He's regarded

:58:19.:58:22.

well in Brussels as a result of it. The key thing is to have a

:58:23.:58:25.

commissioner who's willing to do the hard work and is willing to put

:58:26.:58:31.

themselves into the job fully. If that's the case, then I think the UK

:58:32.:58:37.

will be in a good position. I think the key, it is interesting in the

:58:38.:58:43.

report, we have to be encouraging younger people to work in the

:58:44.:58:47.

institutions. That's also about changing and informing better the

:58:48.:58:50.

British public about what the institutions are. We have to leave

:58:51.:58:55.

it there. Thanks to my guests Jude and Ian, bye-bye.

:58:56.:59:09.

When Barbara and I started the Review,

:59:10.:59:12.

we were seeking to examine the workings

:59:13.:59:15.

and the truthfulness of establishments.

:59:16.:59:18.

Albatross? There it is. The albatross.

:59:19.:59:25.

The albatross is going to need a hair-styling.

:59:26.:59:27.

A thrilling tale of double agents and a man on the run.

:59:28.:59:34.

John Buchan's flair for wartime propaganda

:59:35.:59:38.

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. He discusses the new Royal Navy aircraft carrier with former defence minister Nick Harvey and the comedian Francesca Martinez talks about the People's Assembly.


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