04/07/2014 Daily Politics


04/07/2014

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Morning, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Prime Minister's former Director of Communications has been sentenced

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to 18 months in prison for phone hacking. We'll bring you the latest

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reaction. A bottle of single malt whisky is

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about to be smashed against the hull of the Navy?s biggest ever warship.

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But is ?60 billion of aircraft carrier money well spent?

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"Stand Up Against Austerity." Can comedy win the argument over cuts?

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Comedian Francesca Martinez makes the case for taking the brakes off

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spending. And Hardeep Singh Kohli tells us why

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peace loving father-of-a-nation Mahatma Gandhi should be an

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inspiration for politicians around the world.

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I can only imagine if we had people with that for the loss of the --

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philosophy around in Palestine and Israel, there might be peace.

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All that and more coming up in the next hour of the very finest public

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service broadcasting. So the Prime Minister's former

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Director of Communications is on his way to prison. Andy Coulson has been

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sentenced to 18 months behind bars, having been found guilty of phone

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hacking last week. He was sentenced this morning, along with four

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co-defendants. Let's talk to our correspondent Robin Brant, who is at

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Did the judge say why he did not get the maximum sentence of two years?

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What he did was explain how he came to reaches decision. Andy Coulson

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has to take the major blame for hacking at the News of the World,

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said the judge, the cos it increased enormously during the period he was

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editor. -- because. He said he did not start it but he knew about it

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and he encouraged it as he felt as editor, it gave the paper a

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competitive edge. The cut -- before he passed sentence, the judge said

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the maximum he could give us two years and he said he was aiming

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close comments at those who may feel outrage she could not give more and

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those who may feel this is an attack on the press by the courts -- he

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could not. There was a focus on the most emotive case, the hacking of

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the phone of Milly Dowler in April 2002, the missing teenager. The News

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of the World targeted her phone and they accessed her voice mails but

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the judge said it was unforgivable that when they got the information,

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they did not tell the police for a 24 hour period. This was not about

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helping the police but about trying to sell newspapers. That is a

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glimpse into some of the reasons why the judge reached this decision.

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It is not over for him. He is being tried again another charges the jury

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could not come to a decision about, when will that start?

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We do not know. Possibly early next year. He is likely to be released

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from prison in April next year. Entitled to that, once he has served

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half his sentence, so he could be out in the middle of the general

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election campaign. Pictures of him from prison might not be what David

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Cameron wants to see. Both him and Clive Goodman will be retried over

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allegations of corrupt payments to police over internal phone

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directories. Police investigation is going to claims about more phone

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hacking, Sunday Mirror hacking as well, claims of computer hacking.

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The prospect of further legal action against Andy Coulson. He is inside

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being dealt with by the present service and Andy Coulson will leave

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this building in a prison van. But it is far from over in terms of time

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in court and further allegations he will face.

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We have had a reaction from the Prime Minister. He is in Scotland

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for the floating of this new aircraft carrier.

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It says it is right to justice is done and nobody is above the law, as

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I have always said. I guess he does not want to say any

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more than that. He will probably be in jail when the retrials begin. If

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he is sentenced on these retrials and found guilty, will the speak

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additional sentences or will they serve concurrently? -- will these

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be. The best I can do is explain what

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the sentence is for somebody convicted of misconduct in a public

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office. There has been a lot of sensitivity around this and

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subsequent trials. David Cameron got into a lot of trouble with the judge

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in the aftermath of the conviction of Andy Coulson last week. If you

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offer on to guilty, technically you face life in jail because it is

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known as, more offence. It is serious, police officers and other

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public officials have gone for six months, some less and others more.

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The issue is if he is found guilty, it will be the role he played as

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editor. A senior role, and that may be reflected. We are a long way from

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that and we do not know when this trial will take place. I was not in

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court at the time but a colleague was and Andy Coulson was asked to

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stand alongside the other four and I am told he was stored upright, there

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was a glance at a public gallery, but no visible reaction of the van

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that. That sounds like the expressionless face he had when

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convicted in this court over a week ago. -- reaction other than that.

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Barely any other expression on his face.

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I sentence you to staying on that street for the rest of this year!

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Not guilty. You are, you have been sentenced!

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Now, it's as long as the Houses of Parliament. At 65,000 tonnes, it?s

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Britain's biggest ever warship. In the next hour, the Queen will smash

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a bottle of the finest single malt whisky against her hull. Well, only

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the best will do. The Queen Elizabeth and her sister ship the

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Prince of Wales have already cost more than ?6 billion.

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Greg Miskiwi it is not a launch, they do not launch these ships, they

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float them -- it is not a launch. There is still a lot of of fitting

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out to be done. That is it, HMS Queen Elizabeth. That is what you

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get for about ?3 billion before counting the planes and the

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equipment. And it will need many sailors, more than we currently

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have. Robert Fox knows a lot about these things, what do you make about

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this? I know the outrage, currently ?6.2

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billion for the two ships and counting. But the Navy say ?6.2

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billion for a ship expected to be lasting 50 years. And it looks quite

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good at the price. The carrier concept I have sympathy with, the

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conception they came up with, it is a dog's breakfast from inception to

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the naming. About 15 years. It does raise some very serious questions.

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Did it really have to be this big? Did it really have to be this shape

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and require so much in terms of escort and ancillaries that she

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rightly referred to. I think the general agreement on both sides of

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the House is now we have the things, we had better use them. And there is

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a use. And we are joined now by former

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Defence Minister Nick Harvey. When I see the American equivalent,

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they are surrounded by other American naval ships. To form US

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battle fleets. Have we in off sweets to protect these carriers?

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We will struggle cos the fleet is small. -- have we got enough sweets.

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And if one of these was to be sunk, that is a lot of capacity that has

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gone. -- enough fleets. They will need crew. That is no small

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undertaking. It has taken a long time to get here, they were

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conceived in the 1988 Strategic Defence Review, it is another six

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years because they are in service. There are issues with the aircraft.

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The American aircraft which has had its problems. The engines just went

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on fire this week. They have had a succession of problems, but there is

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enough investment in it. But I agree with Robert, for all the problems,

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this is a happy day. We are going to make extensive use of these over 30,

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40 years, but probably in a quite different way from what George

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Robertson envisaged in 1988 when he thought it would be full of fighter

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jets which we cannot afford. We would be lucky if we have one third

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of the numbers he thought we would have.

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These are a great visual projection of power. You can project a lot of

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power with these but you also have two defend these, because if you

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lose these, it is the equivalent of the naval nine 11. July the 4th was

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the date of one of the biggest losses in World War II. The loss of

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a convoy. So you are right. That is where I am quite sanguine. If the

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Navy, and it is not very expensive... By the way, these are

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as cheap as chips compared with what the Americans spent on the

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equivalent. One third bigger. They need almost six times the crewing. I

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think the escort will be there, particularly if they get the type

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they wanted. Alex Salmond wants to hang on to that deal if Scotland

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goes independent. But they will use this in a context they did not

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devise. We do not want to fly aircraft to bomb Baghdad, they are

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dealing with points at the choke point like the red Sea, even the

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channel, where you have new kinds of threats. -- the English Channel. We

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are vulnerable in terms of maritime security. You mentioned the joint

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strikeforce. The capital cost is substantial but it seems we are not

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able to run two at one time and to put enough planes on them. Between

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them, these ships could take 36 each. I was told we would be lucky

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if we get 12 on one of them. They are working out 16 of their

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capacity, how does this make sense? The MoD are no longer talking about

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the original concept of carrier strike but carrier enabled power

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projection. What you will see is about 12 of the strike fighters,

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helicopters, and also unmanned aerial vehicles. And the roles they

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will be performing will be much more about getting people out of conflict

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zones, getting essential supplies into disaster zones. Literal

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manoeuvre rather than the heavy strike capability that Robert was

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describing. To carry marines. That is what it

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will be used for. And fly big helicopters off the deck at the same

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time. That is the real role of these things, but it is hardly being

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discussed. Starting from now, what would we

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have done this? No. We would have done something but

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it did not need to be on this scale. Don't the Spanish, they fly jumbo

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jets as we used to call them off the back of votes which are not aircraft

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carriers. -- ships. They fly from ships less than half this size and

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we have won them off smaller ships. -- loan them. We were originally

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going to fly conventional aircraft but that only survived a couple of

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years before the money men said we could not afford them. Nobody ever

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said, the emperor has no clothes, let's start again. But they will be

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magnificent, no doubt about it. The second one will be called Vince of

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Wales. -- music -- the Prince of Wales. We can see pictures of the

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Queen and the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary. And in the

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background, you can see to the other side of the Firth of Forth. You can

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see the road bridge and the railway bridge. The Red Arrows, I assume.

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aircraft carrier? The Labour frontbenchers are talking about it.

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It's nonsense. To make this work, you really have to have the second

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carrier. It is not particularly complicated. The maths is easy in

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order to do the training. If you want to use one ship, you have to

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have one in preparation to train the kids, do the ammunition, food,

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hospital and this that and the other. The real question is the Navy

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is by about 2,000 to 3,000 girls and boys too small. That is one of the

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real disasters of the 2010 defence review.

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They better start training. We leave it there. Big day for the Royal navy

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and the British taxpayer. The Queen will be floating this Queen

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Elizabeth aircraft carrier in the next couple of minutes.

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??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE next couple of minutes.

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??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE The watchdog that regulates the NHS

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in England, called Monitor, has been criticised this morning by MPs

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on the Public Accounts Committee. They've said it must get better

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at identifying NHS hospital trusts at risk of failure

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and highlighted the large proportion of foundation trusts that are

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in financial difficulties. Let's talk to our Political

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Correspondent, Norman Smith. Was this is surprise? It is. The MPs

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appear to have discovered Monitor could do with monitoring of its own

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performance. A quarter of Foundation Trusts are in financial trouble. The

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question is how on Earth did that come to pass if Monitor's meant to

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be on top of the situation and try to make sure that doesn't happen.

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Secondly, they are concerned about the way Monitor goes about its

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business. In particular, the fact it only has 1% of its staff, just

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seven, with any clinical background. Out of the 330 or so people who work

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for Monitor, just a tiny percentage have hands on experience of what on

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Earth goes on in hospitals. As a consequence of that, they are having

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to buy in people who have some know how about hospitals. The committee

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found Monitor is spending something like 20% of its budget on bringing

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in consultants to tell them about the nuts and bolts of running a

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hospital. Not surprisingly, the Labour chair woman of the Public

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Accounts Committee Margaret Hodge, was somewhat less than impressed.

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Monitor is supposed to protect the public in relation to these

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independence foundation Hospital Trusts. Yet, among their 340 or so

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staff, they only have seven who have any clinical experience at all. We

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found they are spending... 20% of their money on buying in people on

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consultancy fees because they haven't go the in-house staff. They

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have a real issue as to whether they have the skills and competence to

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support these foundation hospitals during a very difficult time when

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money is tight and when there isn't enough leadership talent to go round

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and fill the jobs. The monitor needs a monitor. Norman,

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Prime Minister's Questions, a lot of Argy bargey about statistics, A

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Waiting lists. Any further developments in this statistical

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battle? I think what we learnt is the old Winston Churchill saying,

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lies, damn lies and statistics! It is as relevant today as it was then.

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The House of Commons put up a blog raising the question mark about how

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David Cameron reached his figures. Downing Street were incensed that it

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was being questioned how he came up with these figures. Last night, the

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House of Commons official took down the blog saying Mr Cameron had

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confused mean waiting times with median waiting times. He'd confused

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waiting times for assessment with treatment. I got on to them this

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morning. I asked if they'd been put under pressure from Number Ten. They

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say not, they will be putting up a reviewed blog shortly. It tells us

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in the run up to the election how figures will be in the frontline of

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the Argy bargey. Not only have we had Downing Street getting laid into

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the House of Commons people over this set of figures, you think back

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earlier in the week when we had Ed Miliband and his launch of his

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measures to help growth outside of London and Downing Street got waded

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into him for coming up with figures which they said were not correct.

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Figures will be at the sharp end in the run up to the elections.

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Thank you for that. We all regard the House of Commons

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library as gospel. We'll look forward to what they are now going

:20:19.:20:25.

??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE ??EDITNEXTSUBTITLE

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He's the father of a nation who has inspired movements for civil rights

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And Mahatma Gandhi is also comedian Hardeep Sing Koli's

:20:38.:20:41.

Giles Dilnot's been finding out more about him.

:20:42.:21:00.

You know the thing about being a politician and wax figure in Madame

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Tussauds, you're only really relevant because you're in power.

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You're a here today, gone tomorrow politician unless you're a true icon

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There is one still relevant in 2014 even though he died in 1948. Mahatma

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Gandhi. Not only a prolific philosopher and writer. Because he

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lived that philosophy he changed the course of history for four

:21:31.:21:34.

countries, including our own. I'm off to meet a comedian and

:21:35.:21:41.

broadcaster who thinks Gandhi's influence goes even furthers than

:21:42.:21:47.

that. We leave this bizarre little man

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whose coming has caused so much comment complete with loin cloth and

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goats milk. You've brought me to Bow. We're

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talking about Gandhi. He was here in 1931 for a huge conference. Loads of

:22:03.:22:07.

countries part of the empire invited. It is up in the West End

:22:08.:22:11.

and he's here. That epitomised the man. He was offered to stay with the

:22:12.:22:17.

king but he decided to come to the gritty East End to the real people.

:22:18.:22:22.

That Martian him out from other great states men and leaders. He

:22:23.:22:28.

travelled around the country listening to people about their

:22:29.:22:32.

needs, worries and concerns. I'd like to think we could all carry an

:22:33.:22:37.

element of that. Speaking for people who cannot have their voices heard.

:22:38.:22:42.

It is a powerful message. They have his room here kept as was. Would you

:22:43.:22:49.

like to have a look? I have a loin cloth, goats milk and spinning top

:22:50.:22:56.

for you. Mr Gandhi will be able to meet friends, talks when he likes,

:22:57.:23:02.

just as we do. This is the balcony. He was staying in 1931, pretty much

:23:03.:23:09.

as we've seen. This is Mahatma Gandhi's room. Defined by its

:23:10.:23:14.

simplicity. Few cushions on the floor. He slept there. His spinning

:23:15.:23:19.

wheel. Like a prison cell which is apt considering how much time he did

:23:20.:23:25.

spend in prison. What do you think is his basic philosophy? India in

:23:26.:23:29.

the forties, incredibly February rile. A war was being fought around

:23:30.:23:36.

the reported. India had a choice, to have an around uprising or find

:23:37.:23:41.

another way. Gandhi found another way. People think it was passive but

:23:42.:23:46.

it wasn't. Gandhi and the rest walked up to the line and were

:23:47.:23:50.

battered down by the sticks of the Indian members of the British Army.

:23:51.:23:54.

They went back the next day and were battered down again. I think what

:23:55.:23:59.

Gandhi showed is there's only so many times you can hit a man with a

:24:00.:24:03.

stick before you realise it is pointless, you're losing the moral

:24:04.:24:08.

argument. That's the point. Once you wage an armed conflict you lose the

:24:09.:24:12.

morality of the argument. He never lost that. All that influence is

:24:13.:24:16.

demonstrated in paperwork from the British. They don't know how to deal

:24:17.:24:22.

with him. I can show you documents which prove it. Dr Elizabeth Fraser

:24:23.:24:28.

from Oxford University says Gandhi had many ideas which influenced

:24:29.:24:35.

Indian politics. It is a follows if I of non-violence. It has several

:24:36.:24:42.

elements to it. First, he's very worried about state power laws and

:24:43.:24:48.

policing which he thinks will always have to use violence. Secondly, of

:24:49.:24:56.

course, he sees the British imperialism as a arc typically

:24:57.:25:00.

violent, oppressive system. He thinks the only way to answer

:25:01.:25:11.

violence is with non-violent rest Is fence tb -- resistance.

:25:12.:25:22.

Got it. Let's look at this. This is basically at the national archives.

:25:23.:25:27.

Records of what the Government were making of Gandhi's campaign for

:25:28.:25:33.

Indian independence. In 1940, they are all just reporting back his

:25:34.:25:40.

intransigence, if you like. It's very clear it's independence or

:25:41.:25:45.

nothing. By 1943, they've just arrested saying he can't

:25:46.:25:49.

correspondent with begin in a, the founder of Pakistan. They won't let

:25:50.:25:53.

him talk to him. It is clear Gandhi's crucial to Indian

:25:54.:25:56.

independence. But it is not India he wants that he gets. I believe

:25:57.:26:01.

without Gandhi there would be no independent India. He was

:26:02.:26:04.

instrumental to the entire process. What's not as well known is the work

:26:05.:26:10.

he was doing in terms of keeping the internal body politic coherent,

:26:11.:26:15.

stopping the factional violence between the Hindus and Muslims. It

:26:16.:26:20.

was a dying regret partings occurred. But what's fascinating

:26:21.:26:25.

about Gandhi is he managed all this change, all this influence without

:26:26.:26:30.

being a formal politician. He never held office. It might sound cheesy.

:26:31.:26:35.

I'm taking you to an Indian restaurant but there is a point to

:26:36.:26:40.

it. I don't really like all that foreign muck! See why? Come on in.

:26:41.:26:50.

Hardeep, I've brought to Gandhi's restaurant. It is not just a name.

:26:51.:26:57.

This is frequented by Prime Ministers, Gordon Brown, Alistair

:26:58.:27:01.

Darling. Prime Minister of Bangladesh. Does Gandhi have any

:27:02.:27:07.

relevance to modern politics? There isn't an international figure in

:27:08.:27:11.

recent history who's had a greater impact on politics. If you trace the

:27:12.:27:16.

line from Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, what's been happening

:27:17.:27:21.

recently in Burma, the passive resistance, not stepping down, but

:27:22.:27:26.

neither stepping too far up, has proven to work time and time again.

:27:27.:27:35.

I only imagine if we'd people with that ganged eian philosophy warned

:27:36.:27:39.

in Palestine and Israel, there might be peace there. There may not have

:27:40.:27:45.

been a genocide in Rwanda. No Crimean situation now. But, really,

:27:46.:27:51.

I think, what we should do to honour Mahatma Gandhi, is have a small

:27:52.:27:56.

vegetarian Indian snack. I'm not going to tell you how to eat it.

:27:57.:28:05.

Last thing I'll do is give you a pop a Dom don't preach... But #50i78'

:28:06.:28:09.

keeping the baby. It was going very well till the end.

:28:10.:28:16.

Well the economy seems to have bounced back but our public finances

:28:17.:28:19.

We're still spending ?107 billion a year more than we can afford

:28:20.:28:23.

and we're less than halfway through the planned cuts.

:28:24.:28:26.

Not everyone is in favour of sticking with that programme though

:28:27.:28:28.

and next week some of Britain's best known comics will be taking to the

:28:29.:28:32.

And we're joined now by Francesca Martinez who will be

:28:33.:28:35.

taking part in the "stand up to austerity" and by Harry

:28:36.:28:38.

I'll be at the Apollo on 7th July. You should come because it is

:28:39.:28:45.

supporting the People's Assembly which is this huge movement at grass

:28:46.:28:55.

roots level looking to change the way that the austerity is happening.

:28:56.:29:15.

Looking for an to that. There will be loads of brilliant comics. It

:29:16.:29:20.

will be for a marvellous cause. You can console yourself with the fact

:29:21.:29:20.

you've done some. All you will have done is go to a gig and done

:29:21.:29:21.

nothing, really! On 7th July it will be up against austerity. On 7th,

:29:22.:29:22.

Francesca Martinez will be there. I advise you to go. I endorse it as a

:29:23.:29:23.

concept and as a cause. And we're joined now by

:29:24.:29:28.

Francesca Martinez who will be taking part in the

:29:29.:29:30.

"stand up to austerity" and by Harry We've had austerity for years? We

:29:31.:29:44.

need to fight it. 80% of the cuts have not come in yet. It is really

:29:45.:29:48.

important we stand up against it now. Let's not kid ourselves.

:29:49.:29:55.

Austerity is not about money. It is about bringing in a near liberal

:29:56.:30:02.

agenda dominated by corporate interests. I think it's really

:30:03.:30:05.

important we challenge that rhetoric. Cameron said recently that

:30:06.:30:12.

we were having permanent austerity which proves it's about ideology and

:30:13.:30:19.

not money. If it was about money, they would be regulating the banking

:30:20.:30:29.

sector to ensure a crash never happens again. Instead, that's been

:30:30.:30:42.

left largely untouched. We have not really had austerities yet and we

:30:43.:30:45.

never really will. The government has been spending aliens this year

:30:46.:30:51.

and at the end of the government -- the Labour government, they were

:30:52.:30:57.

spending less. The debt has hit ?1.3 trillion. Why are we not talking

:30:58.:31:03.

about that? If you want to talk about protesting about future and

:31:04.:31:06.

fairness, how is saddling people not born yet with thousands of debt for

:31:07.:31:13.

our spending now fair? The problem is not money, there is always money

:31:14.:31:18.

for war, why? There is always money to bail out banks and four MP pay

:31:19.:31:28.

rises. They voted on an 11% pay rise.

:31:29.:31:33.

Actually, they have not. They tried hard! They did not say, there is no

:31:34.:31:41.

money for a pay rise. So when it suits the government, they find it.

:31:42.:31:48.

If you want to create more money in this world, there is a what we can

:31:49.:31:56.

do. We can tackle the ?120 billion tax gap that we currently have. We

:31:57.:32:01.

could introduce a living wage which would ensure working people do not

:32:02.:32:08.

have to be on benefit -- benefits. Only 3% of people on benefits are

:32:09.:32:13.

unemployed. Welfare is not the issue. But welfare is being

:32:14.:32:18.

demonised to justify the cuts. And as a taxpayer, I am totally proud to

:32:19.:32:29.

fund welfare, the NHS, education, I am not proud to fund legal wars,

:32:30.:32:32.

that is what should be demonised. She is right, there is always money

:32:33.:32:40.

around. Even borrowing ?107 billion seems a lot but interest rates are

:32:41.:32:43.

low and despite the fact the government has not cut the deficit

:32:44.:32:48.

by anything like it said it would, the economy is growing again,

:32:49.:32:53.

employment is growing, so the original strategy might not have

:32:54.:32:56.

been right. There is a ticking time bomb, they

:32:57.:33:02.

are not addressing the debt and we are living on borrowed time. Unless

:33:03.:33:06.

we radically address the situation and we do not just tinker around. We

:33:07.:33:13.

are over five years proposing a 3.9% reduction in state spending in real

:33:14.:33:17.

terms, the same amount Denis Healy did in the 1970s in one year. These

:33:18.:33:23.

are not radical cuts, which are tinkering. -- we are tinkering. We

:33:24.:33:30.

should be taking out departments. If you want to address the economy

:33:31.:33:34.

and make sure the crash never happens again, you have to change

:33:35.:33:38.

this economic system which is fundamentally unjust. It benefits an

:33:39.:33:49.

elite few. You tell the 1 million people who use food banks the cuts

:33:50.:34:01.

are tinkering. There is going to be a what more trouble than that. -- a

:34:02.:34:08.

lot more. If we do not address the financial situation. You say we want

:34:09.:34:11.

to regulate the city so it cannot happen again, the city is creating

:34:12.:34:19.

the wealth that pays the series. -- the taxes. It remains in the hands

:34:20.:34:24.

of vinyl beat a few. It pays for the NHS and the public services. -- an

:34:25.:34:32.

elite few. The NHS is being privatised because private health

:34:33.:34:37.

funds the Tory party. That is how policy works.

:34:38.:34:41.

We will have to leave it. It is time to look at what is going on in

:34:42.:34:43.

European politics. MEPs elected in May have met for the

:34:44.:34:48.

first time in Strasbourg this week. In a moment, we'll be joined by two

:34:49.:34:51.

of them in the studio. First though, here's our guide to the latest from

:34:52.:34:55.

Europe, in just 60 seconds. The week's most awkward phone call,

:34:56.:35:08.

as the Prime Minister congratulates Jean-Claude Juncker on his new job,

:35:09.:35:12.

despite spending week is trying to prevent him. The Parliament began

:35:13.:35:18.

the session with Beethoven's Ode to Joy, the anthem of the EU. Most MEPs

:35:19.:35:27.

looked two way, UKIP, the other. While UKIP think the EU is rubbish,

:35:28.:35:31.

the European Commission is talking rubbish. The commission has proposed

:35:32.:35:36.

councils will have to recycle 70% of household waste by the end of next

:35:37.:35:40.

decade. Better news for David this week

:35:41.:35:45.

after Germany backed plans to back migrants sending child benefits

:35:46.:35:50.

abroad. And who is this smoothly? Matteo Ramsey is the new Italian

:35:51.:35:54.

Prime Minister who says the continent is moving at half the

:35:55.:35:57.

speed of the rest of the world, so time to move on, Pronto!

:35:58.:36:06.

And with us for the next 30 minutes, I've been joined by the Conservative

:36:07.:36:11.

Ian Duncan and Labour's Jude Kirton-Darling. Welcome to the

:36:12.:36:13.

programme. Let's just pick up on the comments made by the Italian Prime

:36:14.:36:17.

Minister, Matteo Renzi, that we saw at the end of that clip there.

:36:18.:36:22.

That it is time to end austerity, is it? Is it going to happen? I think

:36:23.:36:31.

it is fundamental we see a change in direction at European level. This

:36:32.:36:35.

leads neatly from the discussion you are having about the UK. If we look

:36:36.:36:42.

across Europe, austerity has been extremely counter-productive in a

:36:43.:36:45.

lot of countries. Fran?ois Alonso was elected to bring

:36:46.:36:53.

an end to it -- Francois Hollande. France is now in a worse state than

:36:54.:37:04.

any other European economy. Figures suggest there is no growth, so why

:37:05.:37:09.

did he fail? Because we have not seen that change at European level.

:37:10.:37:13.

We saw one President elected in France but we did not see a change

:37:14.:37:19.

in the overall strategy at European level. What we need is to seek a

:37:20.:37:25.

change in the EU strategy and a posh in terms of investment and growth.

:37:26.:37:32.

-- eight posh. Labour are calling for concrete measures to put forward

:37:33.:37:36.

growth and job creation because we still have catastrophic levels of

:37:37.:37:40.

unemployment across Europe. Would that make a difference?

:37:41.:37:45.

Austerity is causing serious problems in Europe but the Eurozone

:37:46.:37:51.

is causing real problems around the Mediterranean countries. Youth

:37:52.:37:54.

unemployment above 50%. Unless you can get a serious adjustment,

:37:55.:37:59.

generations will be lost. What would that be? The Eurozone has

:38:00.:38:04.

to adjust. You have got to allow some sense of freedom. Allow

:38:05.:38:09.

devaluation, potentially countries we focusing and building themselves

:38:10.:38:14.

back up. You cannot have that unless they

:38:15.:38:16.

read. If you do not do that, you are just

:38:17.:38:21.

hoping inside that lifeboat will be survival. -- they leave. I think

:38:22.:38:24.

there will be starvation. Now, we're all used to a left-wing

:38:25.:38:29.

and right-wing divide in politics. But after the recent European

:38:30.:38:32.

elections in which anti-establishment parties made big

:38:33.:38:34.

gains, are the new division lines in European politics now between

:38:35.:38:37.

europhiles and eurosceptics? The European Parliament is still

:38:38.:38:39.

dominated by the two big traditional political groupings. The EPP, the

:38:40.:38:42.

European People's Party who have 29% of the seats, and S, the

:38:43.:38:45.

Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats, who have 25% of the

:38:46.:38:47.

seats. Although these groupings are on opposite sides of the political

:38:48.:38:58.

spectrum, the EPP on the centre-right and the S on the

:38:59.:39:00.

centre-left, they definitely have one thing in common. They are both

:39:01.:39:03.

very pro-European. But their European love-in faces a threat,

:39:04.:39:08.

after voters returned a significant numbers of MEPs from Eurosceptic

:39:09.:39:15.

parties such as UKIP, France's National Front and Italy's Five Star

:39:16.:39:18.

Movement. So the traditional rivals of European politics have got

:39:19.:39:22.

together and negotiated a grand coalition with themselves and the

:39:23.:39:26.

Liberal grouping ALDE to prevent the EU's programme being derailed, and

:39:27.:39:31.

the dividing lines in the European Parliament were on show from the

:39:32.:39:35.

very first debate a few days ago. The Eurosceptics are the

:39:36.:39:49.

progressives. These two gentleman had nothing to say today, it was the

:39:50.:39:58.

usual dull, looking back, invented 50 years ago, and we want democracy,

:39:59.:40:02.

we want nation state, we want a global future for our countries, not

:40:03.:40:07.

to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you.

:40:08.:40:14.

What are you doing here? I heard the speech of the Leader of the

:40:15.:40:17.

Opposition in the House of Commons. If you want to be considered as the

:40:18.:40:20.

leader of the European political group, make speeches of eight

:40:21.:40:25.

political European leader, thank you. -- apolitical.

:40:26.:40:30.

We are joined now by the UKIP MEP Tim Aker.

:40:31.:40:34.

Is Eurosceptic and Europhile the dividing line?

:40:35.:40:41.

It is business as usual. Some are challenging the big rocks. We have

:40:42.:40:50.

formed a democracy group and you could hear applause. There is a

:40:51.:40:56.

movement away from the old Moore Europe and more integration, it is

:40:57.:41:00.

coming on in stages but it is a trend that will continue at the next

:41:01.:41:04.

elections because it cannot go on. Is he right? The centre-left

:41:05.:41:11.

grouping is a coalition with the centre-right because although you

:41:12.:41:16.

disagree on individual policies, what unites you is a strong European

:41:17.:41:18.

feel. What we are there to do is to defend

:41:19.:41:24.

the people who have elected us to go to the European Parliament.

:41:25.:41:28.

Implement the programme we have committed to. In the north-east

:41:29.:41:32.

where I stood, it was during game investment, creating jobs in a place

:41:33.:41:38.

with the highest employment -- unemployment in the country. --

:41:39.:41:44.

bringing in investment. It is not opposition government, it is ELT on

:41:45.:41:48.

alliances and they need to work. You have joined a group that is

:41:49.:41:55.

Federalist. -- it is built on. The EU has to work for the people of

:41:56.:41:59.

Britain. Are you Federalist? Not especially. I think we are stronger

:42:00.:42:07.

together. That is the issue. The Labour group is explicitly

:42:08.:42:12.

Federalist, are you Federalist? I would say that I believe that

:42:13.:42:19.

Europeans working together are better off than nation state is

:42:20.:42:21.

trying to poll behind national lines. So you are Federalist. I am

:42:22.:42:28.

quite pro-European and I am proud of that. You have not answered my

:42:29.:42:33.

question. I think it is a false debate. It is not a dictatorship, as

:42:34.:42:41.

UKIP present. Where are the Conservatives in this? Isolated. The

:42:42.:42:47.

Conservatives are part of the third-largest group. A group which

:42:48.:42:53.

believes in reform. We were the only serious opposition of the stitch up

:42:54.:42:59.

whereby Jean-Claude Juncker got the presidency of the commission. But

:43:00.:43:04.

none of your allies, the German Christian Democrats, the French UMP,

:43:05.:43:11.

the Spanish Conservatives, none of these, your natural allies in

:43:12.:43:15.

Europe, or in your group. The reality is that they believe in

:43:16.:43:22.

reform and only we can deliver that. Would you want to have dinner with

:43:23.:43:27.

them? I had dinner with them several times.

:43:28.:43:30.

Should you not to choose your company more carefully?

:43:31.:43:33.

They believe in reform. When it comes to a battle between the

:43:34.:43:40.

Eurosceptics and the strongly pro-European or most federalist on

:43:41.:43:44.

the other side of the other groups, where are you? UKIP are going to

:43:45.:43:49.

turn their back on Europe as they did in the anthem. Federalism is not

:43:50.:43:54.

what we are for, we believe we can make Europe work. But it has to be

:43:55.:44:00.

serious reform and we are the only party that can deliver a referendum

:44:01.:44:03.

to give people the choice. Where does UKIP go because although the

:44:04.:44:10.

anti-European parties did very well in the European elections, when you

:44:11.:44:17.

put together the centre-right, the centre-left and the liberal

:44:18.:44:20.

grouping, you are still outnumbered and you do not all agree.

:44:21.:44:26.

The questioner who took my daughter task, what are you doing here if you

:44:27.:44:30.

oppose this? -- who took Nigel to task. That is the mindset. There

:44:31.:44:38.

were more spoilt papers that your candidate got in the elections. We

:44:39.:44:43.

want nothing to do with this. We got 100 votes, we got beyond our

:44:44.:44:50.

numbers, which is quite impressive. We are isolated because we are not

:44:51.:44:55.

willing to do cosy deals. We are not able to build alliances and at

:44:56.:45:00.

European level, you have to do that to reform. If you are going to give

:45:01.:45:05.

up on your principles, you can do what you did. He called it a free

:45:06.:45:13.

and open election but it was not, there was no EPP candidate, that is

:45:14.:45:18.

a cosy stitch up. There were five candidates and it was a secret

:45:19.:45:23.

ballot and anybody could vote. The EPP did not put up a candidate and

:45:24.:45:29.

they are the August group in -- the biggest group. You still outnumbered

:45:30.:45:33.

in the European Parliament. You are part of the group in which the

:45:34.:45:38.

British Labour Party does not agree with its policies, and you are not

:45:39.:45:44.

part of anything. We the third biggest group. You cannot swing

:45:45.:45:48.

anything, you are outnumbered by the three centre groups. For as long the

:45:49.:45:53.

Labour Party believes it should be Federalist minded, we will have a

:45:54.:45:57.

problem. We believe it is about reforming the EU. Building

:45:58.:46:03.

alliances. So you agree with me. No, it is what you define as reform.

:46:04.:46:09.

What is your most important reform? I would like a real commitment, use

:46:10.:46:14.

unemployment at the top of the programme. That is a programme. --

:46:15.:46:19.

youth unemployment. How would you like to reform Europe? It is about

:46:20.:46:24.

redressing the balance. They put employment issues in the last

:46:25.:46:29.

commission and they have been at the bottom of the pile, it has been

:46:30.:46:34.

about this ghost ability. Start on our own house, stop the circus that

:46:35.:46:42.

travels to Strasbourg every month. Save the hundreds of millions that

:46:43.:46:43.

represents. leader of my political group in the

:46:44.:46:59.

European Parliament. I didn't vote Conservative. He was the candidate,

:47:00.:47:01.

the leader of my group. So, after that 26-2 defeat

:47:02.:47:06.

on the election of Jean Claude Junker as Commission

:47:07.:47:08.

President and UKIP's success in the European Parliament elections

:47:09.:47:10.

what does the rest of Europe think of Britain and its prospects

:47:11.:47:13.

as a member of the European Union? By the magic of television

:47:14.:47:16.

Giles Dilnot's been able to talk to If you reflect on it, members ship

:47:17.:47:32.

of the European Union has not been conjured out of nowhere. However

:47:33.:47:37.

warped the debate gets our leaving the whole show has been rising up

:47:38.:47:42.

the agenda. Not only do lots of country think it's a difficult trick

:47:43.:47:46.

to pull off but it is the kind of magic you shouldn't even attempt. It

:47:47.:47:52.

is very important Britain stays in the EU. And in Austria, we think

:47:53.:47:59.

it's only a threat from Britain it will leave. Mr Cameron will show us

:48:00.:48:11.

how important he is in Europe we take it as a joke. After the

:48:12.:48:16.

European elections, nearly half the old MEPs have transformed into new

:48:17.:48:20.

ones. As a result of attitudes here and elsewhere, it is worth flagging

:48:21.:48:24.

up for Britain and many of the other 28 member states their con tingents

:48:25.:48:31.

are now more eurosceptic than ever. Debating our exit is a good thing

:48:32.:48:35.

and also very revealing. It is not a joke. It is a big issue. Whatever

:48:36.:48:40.

the British decide to do it is significant for all. It is not

:48:41.:48:45.

harmful for the EU. It is helpful for the EU to know we are not locked

:48:46.:48:51.

in. We can exit if we want to. It's even better that a big country like

:48:52.:48:56.

Britain has taken up these issues of reform and even possible exit if the

:48:57.:49:02.

EU continues on this path of federalism. But many Europeans see

:49:03.:49:06.

Britain as descending into the dark arts. The official awkward squad

:49:07.:49:13.

making tactical threats. Then they think, well, maybe they are

:49:14.:49:17.

blackmailing us. Is it worth it. Or maybe they think, can we conceive of

:49:18.:49:23.

the European Union without the UK? The answer to that, if you ask it

:49:24.:49:28.

often enough, yes. The costs would be very high both ways round. A

:49:29.:49:35.

terrible loss of prestige. What that really reveals to those who want to

:49:36.:49:42.

map you out Britain's future is we can leave without each other. But

:49:43.:49:48.

when you see the gap, it's something everyone a would want to reconsider.

:49:49.:49:52.

I'm one of those who thinks it could work better. Be careful what you

:49:53.:49:58.

wish for. Be careful of destroying something that has taken wars to

:49:59.:50:02.

create and peace to stabilise. Do you want to be the political group

:50:03.:50:06.

that pulled it apart when others look to Europe as being the envy of

:50:07.:50:11.

democracy, modernisation, freedom, liberty and free movement. For those

:50:12.:50:18.

who are transparently pro-European, this strike tearily debate appears

:50:19.:50:23.

to disstrict. Eurosceptic voters need to know where that leaves those

:50:24.:50:29.

who want out. All the voters need to understand they have no influence.

:50:30.:50:35.

They are not part of the discussions in the committees where we are

:50:36.:50:40.

talking about creating rules, financial sector stab I willisation.

:50:41.:50:44.

There's no participation of these groups. They getting money for doing

:50:45.:50:51.

nothing. In one sense, it doesn't really matter what other countries

:50:52.:50:55.

think. If we have a referendum and if we vote no, like that, we're

:50:56.:51:05.

gone. How big an issue is it with other

:51:06.:51:09.

Europeans in the European Parliament of the possibility of Britain's

:51:10.:51:15.

departure? It's been discussed now. This Parliament is one which is

:51:16.:51:20.

different from the past. The general consensus is it is different. There

:51:21.:51:25.

is a mood for reform and change. There's the Rec negligence Britain

:51:26.:51:29.

is pushing for that. I think many other countries want that same

:51:30.:51:32.

reform. It is not just about what Britain wants. It is about what the

:51:33.:51:38.

rest of Europe wants as well. We have to listen to people who put us

:51:39.:51:42.

into that Parliament. They want something different. If everyone

:51:43.:51:48.

shouted for reform, why can't a consensus emerge and we proceed?

:51:49.:51:53.

Fundamentally, we're talking about different of reforms. There are some

:51:54.:51:57.

things we clearly agree. Stopping the charade of us all trooping down

:51:58.:52:01.

to Strasbourg and making one seat for the Parliament. That makes

:52:02.:52:05.

complete sense. You know that's not going to change? . That would take

:52:06.:52:09.

David Cameron going into negotiation with other leaders and being able to

:52:10.:52:15.

build an alliance for that. An alliance would make no difference.

:52:16.:52:21.

The French would just veto it. You find ways of finding a compromise

:52:22.:52:26.

which could work forthe French. Those reforms are actually in the

:52:27.:52:29.

hands of the European council. Many of the things in the European

:52:30.:52:35.

Parliament are more policy reforms. Redirecting where the focus is in

:52:36.:52:39.

terms of growth, in terms of investment, in terms of employment.

:52:40.:52:46.

Could you get this biggest spending in Europe is still the Common

:52:47.:52:50.

Agricultural Policy. Not as big as it was but still the biggest. Would

:52:51.:52:56.

reform include getting that money being spent on infrastructure, job

:52:57.:53:02.

creation, modernising Europe? If you look at how the negotiations over

:53:03.:53:08.

how the budget was placed, Monet fecked things like broadband, to

:53:09.:53:12.

shore up the French needs for farming. It is not just about

:53:13.:53:16.

maintaining how things have been in the past. We have to get things more

:53:17.:53:19.

focussed. No idea the number of times I've

:53:20.:53:24.

been told that. Maybe one day it will happen. Snell

:53:25.:53:29.

How big an issue is it with other Europeans in the European Parliament

:53:30.:53:32.

of the possibility of Britain's departure? It's been discussed now.

:53:33.:53:34.

This Parliament is one which is different from the past. The general

:53:35.:53:48.

The biggest thing which surprised me on my travels in Euroland is the

:53:49.:53:54.

number of British people I've bumped into. In the Hague, the head of euro

:53:55.:54:00.

poll. In Switzerland, the EU's ambassador. And in Brussels, Mrs

:54:01.:54:07.

Evans. She overseas fish. When people are talking to you, they

:54:08.:54:12.

don't say, she's a British person. They are talking to you as the woman

:54:13.:54:17.

in charge of fisheries policy or state aid. They are not saying, she

:54:18.:54:23.

is a British person. It's not really the primary thing. Is it useful for

:54:24.:54:28.

Whitehall having you in this job? Is there a little back channel there?

:54:29.:54:35.

There's no back channel. I will talk to anybody that wants to talk to me.

:54:36.:54:40.

The problem is, there are a lot of senior people reaching the end of

:54:41.:54:45.

long EU careers and not enough Jones who's starting her as an assistant

:54:46.:54:50.

in the IT department of the European Commission. Since I've been here,

:54:51.:54:54.

I'm probably one of a handful of Brits that I've known over the last

:54:55.:55:00.

18 months. Mainly my colleagues are from lots of different European

:55:01.:55:03.

countries. And, of course, that was part of the appeal of coming to work

:55:04.:55:09.

here. The mix of people and cultures and I find that really interesting.

:55:10.:55:14.

And that's the story the statistics tell too. For simplicity let's look

:55:15.:55:19.

at the commission where Joanne works. The number of UK nationals

:55:20.:55:24.

employed there has fallen by 24% over the last seven years which

:55:25.:55:29.

means now just 4.5% of the staff are British. The UK makes up 12.5% of

:55:30.:55:35.

the population of the EU. So, as a nation, we're seriously

:55:36.:55:38.

underrepresented. A situation one British EU official told me is a

:55:39.:55:42.

catastrophe. That's how they see it here at the

:55:43.:55:45.

Foreign Office in London too. So much so, earlier this year, they

:55:46.:55:49.

launched a new drive to get more people thinking of careers as EU

:55:50.:55:58.

civil servants. There's a whole office dedicated to getting people

:55:59.:56:02.

working in Whitehall to Brussels. But what's the EU really like as an

:56:03.:56:07.

employer? Do you find yourself going home and being an advocate of the

:56:08.:56:17.

EU? Absolutely. 100%. Is this a fun place to work? We don't have fun,

:56:18.:56:25.

you know. We have job satisfaction! We've neither here sclachlt The

:56:26.:56:33.

position of European Commission working for Jean-Claude Juncker. Who

:56:34.:56:40.

will it be? I put my money on Malcolm Rifkind. Malcolm Rifkind?

:56:41.:56:45.

Yeah, former Foreign Secretary. You'd probably win a by-election in

:56:46.:56:50.

Kensington. The important thing is to get the ride man up for the job.

:56:51.:56:58.

He's not up for the job. I've heard his name talked about. News to me.

:56:59.:57:04.

From our perspective it is the Government who decides. So bound to

:57:05.:57:10.

be a Tory? You'd guess unless Nick Clegg wants a platinum balloon out

:57:11.:57:13.

of the coalition, I'm guessing it will be a Tory. Provacative! Whoever

:57:14.:57:20.

it is, we hope it is somebody able to build those alliances at European

:57:21.:57:23.

level and we'll work with them. What would be a good portfolio for them

:57:24.:57:31.

to get? There's quite a ripe choice. An economic Nd one! The British have

:57:32.:57:36.

always gone for internal market. We've not managed to get it tube to

:57:37.:57:40.

our position from other countries up to now. There are big issues in the

:57:41.:57:45.

future around energy, climate change. There are lots of key

:57:46.:57:51.

issues. Which would you like and the British commissioner to get?

:57:52.:57:56.

Internal market would make a difference but trade. It will be

:57:57.:58:02.

important to trade internal markets. These trade agreements are not going

:58:03.:58:09.

well at the moment? They've been bogged down. We need to get them

:58:10.:58:14.

moving. You can create growth and jobs.

:58:15.:58:18.

Peter Mandelson took the prey seriously? He did. He's regarded

:58:19.:58:22.

well in Brussels as a result of it. The key thing is to have a

:58:23.:58:25.

commissioner who's willing to do the hard work and is willing to put

:58:26.:58:31.

themselves into the job fully. If that's the case, then I think the UK

:58:32.:58:37.

will be in a good position. I think the key, it is interesting in the

:58:38.:58:43.

report, we have to be encouraging younger people to work in the

:58:44.:58:47.

institutions. That's also about changing and informing better the

:58:48.:58:50.

British public about what the institutions are. We have to leave

:58:51.:58:55.

it there. Thanks to my guests Jude and Ian, bye-bye.

:58:56.:59:09.

When Barbara and I started the Review,

:59:10.:59:12.

we were seeking to examine the workings

:59:13.:59:15.

and the truthfulness of establishments.

:59:16.:59:18.

Albatross? There it is. The albatross.

:59:19.:59:25.

The albatross is going to need a hair-styling.

:59:26.:59:27.

A thrilling tale of double agents and a man on the run.

:59:28.:59:34.

John Buchan's flair for wartime propaganda

:59:35.:59:38.

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