03/07/2014 Daily Politics


03/07/2014

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil look at how much a private education is worth and whether it is time to tax fizzy drinks. Plus Steve Bell on the political importance of cartoons in WWI.


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Politics. Is the health service safe in David Cameron's hands? We will be

:00:43.:00:54.

asking, are the Government's health targets being met? Life can be a

:00:55.:00:59.

struggle but a posh education can leave you better off in the long

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run. Our private schools worth the DOS? The Welsh wage war on sugar.

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Plaid Cymru is a fizzy drinks should be taxed. We have sent the former

:01:12.:01:15.

Children's Minister, Tim Loughton, back to his childhood.

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Is he meant to be running the country quest might he is showing

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his childlike side. With us for the duration, Anthony Seldon, master of

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Wellington College, all-round intellectual. We don't often have

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those on the show. He has recently been knighted. But that does not

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mean we will be calling him Sir. Anyway, welcome to the programme.

:01:54.:02:00.

Thank you for having me. First today, let us look at events in the

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European Parliament work yesterday Nigel Farage and his band of

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Eurosceptic MEPs took their seats. It was like the start of a new

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school term. Everyone was on their best behaviour. Eager to make good

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friends. Not. We have seen naked militarism with the EU flag being

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virtually goose-step around the yard, we have seen the European

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anthem, and we now, the Eurosceptics, are the progressives.

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These two gentleman had nothing to say today. It was the usual dull

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looking back to a model invented 50 years ago and we are the ones that

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want democracy. We want nation state. We want a global future for

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our countries are not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. What

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are you doing here? What I heard is the speech of the Leader of the

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Opposition in the House of Commons. If you want to hold back kind of

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speech, get elected there. What are you doing here? The reason why you

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are speaking here is that you have enlisted continental Europeans in

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your group just to be able to boast as a British citizen who wants to

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get out of the EU, if you want to be considered as the leader of a

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European political group, make speeches of a European police --

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political leader. Thank you. I have to say, you sound like someone from

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the old commonest error saying, if anybody else has a different point

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of view, they are mentally ill or there is something wrong with them

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-- from the old communist era. Across the political spectrum, there

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are now more Eurosceptics in this parliament than ever and many of

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them do not subscribe to ever closer union, they do not subscribe to the

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flag, they do not want a European anthem. They want a modern Europe

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where we can trade and cooperate together and have mutual respect. Do

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not worry too much about my presence because within the next five years,

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I will not be here. All right? Well, good to see they are getting

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along so well. With us from Strasbourg is the UKIP MEP Nathan

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Gill. Welcome. All very heated in that exchange we just saw between

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Nigel Farage and Mr Lamberts, is this a taste of what is to come?

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Without a doubt. this a taste of what is to come?

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Without a The third of the MEPs here in the Parliament Eurosceptic or

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against an ever deeper union. Already in the debates yesterday, we

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were there and participating and thrown they did not like it. Does

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that mean debate will be so polarised because you have got more

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parties on the extremes, whether left or right, in or out, there will

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be no consensus? You have hit a very good point. What we have seen

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already is that the three federalist parties are ready starting to form

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one big super party. Because they have got two thirds of the MEPs,

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they are starting to get their own way with practically everything.

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There have already been stitch ups with regards to the vice

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presidency. We made an agreement with the Conservatives that we would

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vote for their candidate and they would vote for hours. The

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Conservatives stabbed us in the back and they went ahead and joined with

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the Federalists. What we are seeing is a third of the people of Europe

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who voted for anti-EU, anti-federalist parties they are

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going to be sidelined by the other parties merging together, trying to

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get their agenda through. Backroom deals, politics as usual. There will

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be people who will pose the question to you, you're taking the Brussels

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Eurosceptic line and you want out. What are you doing there? I am

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placed with my back to the EU flag. During the opening of the

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Parliament, we turned our backs on the national anthem. The people who

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voted for us want us to come here and want us to represent them in

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their anti-EU, anti-federalist voice. We do not want to be a part

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of this. We have to come here to remind the MEPs and the commission

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that there is a huge chunk of the British electorate who do not want

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this. That is our job. That is what we are going to do. Nigel Farage

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made the bold prediction he will not be there in five years time. Do you

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think he is confident of achieving it? Absolutely. I do not think any

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of us will be here in five years time because Britain will be out of

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the EU. If you really want a free and fair referendum, the only way is

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to vote UKIP. But UKIP MEPs elected next year so that we can be the

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balance of power and we can make sure whoever is in of --government,

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we can do that. Have you made any friends? We have made friends within

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our group but everyone else's avoiding us. What is your reaction,

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Anthony Seldon? I said politics as usual, but actually it has changed.

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I think Europe has changed. Europe is being driven towards an ever

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closer union and people in Britain and across Europe are Belling. Many

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people want a halfway house and maybe that is what the renegotiation

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can achieve -- are rebelling. It is appropriate with the Great War

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centenary coming up. There were two horrific world wars last century.

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The EU at its best as a way of bringing people together. The hope

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of many people and my hope is to find a renegotiation whereby there

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is a pan-European union, but it is not as ever closer federalist union

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that continental countries have been driving towards. Thank you.

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I will be getting straight down to the currency exchange! Now it is

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time for our daily quiz. Which subject is taught at Wellington

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College as part of its super curriculum? Hairdressing, how to be

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Prime Minister, happiness or Basic car mechanics? At the end of the

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show, I am sure Anthony will give us the correct answer. You think he

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will now! Private school, is it worth the

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money? The Social Market Foundation has been crunching the numbers to

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find out what it is worth. The report argues that children who

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attend private schools are more likely to get good A-levels, go to

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the most selective universities and get the top degrees. So far, so

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obvious. But the think tank reckons they know how much it is all worth.

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They argued that between the ages of 26 and 42, someone who went to an

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independent school will earn on average nearly ?194,000 more than

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someone who went to a state school. But what about other factors like a

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pupil's family background? Well, the think tank reckons that even when

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the other factors are taken into account, there is still a wage

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premium of nearly ?58,000. The report goes on to look at the value

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of the proposed open access scheme set up by the education charity The

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Sutton Trust. Independent school places are available on merit with

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parents playing a sliding scale of fees according to their means --

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parents paying. The Social Market Foundation estimates that if you

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apply the scheme to the country's top 100 schools, it will cost the

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government ?215 million. It would more than double the proportion of

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children coming from the bottom 40% of household incomes. The number of

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children coming from the top 10% of household incomes would roughly

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half. Andrew. Thanks. Bailey Bram peel --

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a Labour MP Ian Austin joins us. Actually, when you drill down into

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the figures, taking out cognitive ability and family background, the

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premium is only ?57,000 for going to a private school which is less than

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two years fees at an expensive boarding school. This would suggest

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it is not much great value. Well, you can cut figures up in different

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ways, Andrew. What is the wrong with the way I have cut it up? I think

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parents are very savvy. A lot of parents are choosing to send their

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children to independent schools, they do not have a lot of money. I

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do not think they would want to do it if it was not representing value

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for money. They could be doing it for social reasons, contacts the

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kids will make in later life but my point is that when you drill

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down... They have gone for this figure of almost 200,000, but if you

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take like-for-like ability and take out the importance of family

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background which still matters in this country, it is only about

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?60,000 and I would suggest you are not getting value for money. We

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could debate the figures. There is a much wider story here which is the

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continued unfairness in Britain in life prospects between those who

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come from the bottom quartile and those who attended dependent

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schools. Britain as a show is surely divided country in the developed

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world and that divide is static or indeed growing -- Britain is a

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socially divided country. I would like to go further than The Sutton

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Trust. Is there a huge premium? The key point is one you made in your

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film a few years ago is that 7% of pupils go to these schools but they

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occupy half of the jobs in so many professions. Our boardrooms,

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newsrooms, they are increasingly populated not by the brightest but

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by the most expensively educated. It is much worse in terms of social

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mobility. That is what the reporters about. That is the central issue. As

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a country, we can no longer afford not to exploit all of the talents

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and that is what we have to address. What do you make of the open access

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scheme? I think it is brilliant. I think it should be introduced. Would

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you go along with it? I would go much further. We cannot have the

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21st-century like the 20th century where you have 7% in independent

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schools and 92%... The best skate -- state schools are superb. But there

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is still a massive divide and I think we should go for radical

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solutions. We should not go for incremental is which is what the

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political parties are offering. What would you do? They Sutton Trust says

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that the top 100 days schools, entry should be open to ability and if you

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are very poor, the government will pay all of your fees. If you are

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moderately rich, it will pay some. If you are very rich, you have to

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pay it all. How will you go further than that? I would say the bottom

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25% socioeconomically in Britain go to not just the top private schools

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but the top state schools also. Grammar schools we know are very

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heavily dominated by the middle classes. It is so unfair. There are

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only 180 left. We have taken them out of all the poor areas. All of

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the grammar schools in inner cities do not exist. There are great state

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schools which are not grammar schools. I would reserve a quarter

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of places that these schools and at independent schools from those in

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the bottom socioeconomics section of society. I would go much further by

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having independent schools all starting academies, by state schools

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emulating the best features. What do you make of that? The situation of

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education in our country is critical. It is the only way we will

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prosper in this century. We are lagging behind with basic skills. I

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think we should set a target in our country. I think every school should

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be capable of getting 70%, 80% of kids getting five eight grades to C

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grades. We need more technical colleges. In Germany, they have

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three times as many apprentices as we do. The number of young

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apprentices is actually falling. Here is a question... If you make

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all these private schools open to ability rather than money, where are

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the rich, thick, posh kids going to go? The brightest ones will go on to

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independent schools. I am talking about the thick ones! When you leave

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your media career, it is a fantastic opportunity for you to make schools

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for the toffs. You think I am going to spend the last part of my life

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watching thick, posh kids. That will not happen. You should come to the

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open Academy and implement policies you were talking about in your film

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a years ago. Andrew, you would be a great head. You would be terrifying

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for the kids. The serious point is that none of the political parties

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are fundamentally addressing what Ian and I are talking about, which

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is the squandering of the talent of the vast number of young people, or

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the fact that many of them are getting just an education in GCSEs.

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They are not getting a rich, all-round education. They are not

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getting the technical education or matching sufficiently what kids have

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to offer to what the country needs. We need a really radical rethink,

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the kind of Jim Callaghan great education debate again. If it is all

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right to open the top 100 independent schools, to access by

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ability, which means people will have to be tested before they can

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go. It will still only affect a pretty small number of people... If

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you think that is right, why would you not just bring back grammar

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schools? I want to see excellence you not just bring back grammar

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schools? I want to see in the state sector. People from ordinary

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backgrounds getting access to independent schools. I think we

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should have a commission on education. Let's get rid of the

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political argy-bargy and set some clear priorities as a country, some

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long-term goals. Let's transform education and educate British

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youngsters and British people so we can prosper as a country in the 21st

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century. There is no more urgent priority than mess. Have the

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political parties let the country down? Yes. Education Secretary are

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here for two or three years. They arrived next to nothing, they make

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little difference and then they go. The answer about grammar schools --

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to the question about grammar schools, selection at 11 is too

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early. Countries with the best education systems have comprehensive

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but streams within their schools for the very bright and technical and so

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on. When you select kids to go to independent schools, we have run out

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of time. We will have to leave it there. I am looking forward to your

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career as a head teacher. You will be on the front row.

:19:28.:19:31.

Well, the former Children's Minister, Tim Loughton,

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has today produced a report for the national charity, 4Children,

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A child at heart, we sent Tim to his favourite

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Childhood is an adventure and there are aspects of modern life which

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would make it even more exciting. With that excitement goes

:20:04.:20:06.

challenges, the challenges of 24-hour social media, peer pressure

:20:07.:20:11.

to fit in and achieve or just be cool and the sexualisation of

:20:12.:20:16.

childhood as well. Recent reports revealed that out of every 30

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16-year-olds, ten will have seen parents divorce, three will have a

:20:23.:20:25.

serious mental health problem and eight will have experienced serious

:20:26.:20:29.

physical violence. Over the last ten years, the number of children with

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sexually transmitted diseases dashed children Dash has more than doubled.

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-- sexually transmitted diseases, children, has more than doubled.

:20:42.:20:50.

There has been lawlessness and riots. Kids lucky enough to be

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brought up by two married parents have the very best start in life and

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the distinct advantage. The state needs to support marriage

:20:57.:21:19.

by enabling promoting family life, not by supplanting it. The influence

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of the anti-smacking brigade, the obesity police and excessive CRB

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checks have led many mums and dads to question their own role and

:21:30.:21:32.

ability to parenting in the first place. The state should be stepping

:21:33.:21:37.

in with relationship support if things get sticky amongst families.

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If older kids get off the rails, the state must be there to support at an

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early stage before the family slipped into crisis. Here we go,

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one, two, three! If parents split, we need to make sure that children

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are absolutely put first and dads do not get frozen out of their

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relationship. Sometimes that may involve the courts. In many cases,

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we need to make sure that children centres and schools are not becoming

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to mother centric. Children need their parents. The state, which

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usually makes for a lousy parent would need to enable and support

:22:16.:22:18.

mums and that's to do the very best job they can, the hardest, but the

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best job in the world. And king of the zip wire, Tim

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Loughton joins us now. I want danger money next time. There

:22:25.:22:37.

was a contradiction in what you are saying. On the one hand he

:22:38.:22:42.

criticised the nanny state for paternalistic regulation but on the

:22:43.:22:45.

other hand you want the state to be involved in terms of promoting

:22:46.:22:50.

marriage. Surely that is the nanny state as well. Married couples and

:22:51.:22:54.

families they bring up the most independent. They tend to do a

:22:55.:22:57.

better job. That is not about denigrating people who tried to do

:22:58.:23:03.

the very difficult job of bringing up kids. We have got to the stage

:23:04.:23:07.

with good parents have to second-guess that they are supposed

:23:08.:23:12.

to do is to be seen as good parents by the

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to do is to be seen as good parents brigade, you're living in fear if

:23:16.:23:18.

you give your kids the wrong food, you are going to have a knock on the

:23:19.:23:23.

door. Other parents had advocated responsibility to the state. I think

:23:24.:23:28.

we have got to recalibrate the balance between what parents should

:23:29.:23:31.

be doing and everything starts at home and what the state should be

:23:32.:23:35.

doing when things start to go wrong. Did you want the state to be more

:23:36.:23:39.

involved? You would like them to step in with help. Do you want them

:23:40.:23:46.

to draw back? I want the state to be there to support, not to supplant,

:23:47.:23:51.

parents. When things do go wrong and they need advice and help, they can

:23:52.:23:54.

be signposted in the right direction and get that support from the state.

:23:55.:23:58.

We need to trust and give confidence back to parents that they are the

:23:59.:24:01.

ones primarily responsible for bringing up children. It is not all

:24:02.:24:05.

down to schools, the social workers or the doctors. Parents are the most

:24:06.:24:10.

important people. Do you agree with Tim about marriage? Somehow, in a

:24:11.:24:15.

married household, it provides a more stable home than any other.

:24:16.:24:26.

Yes. Evidence would tend to suggest that. Not every child will have

:24:27.:24:28.

that. A lot of marriages are breaking down. I think children,

:24:29.:24:31.

above all, need love. They need stability. They also need frontiers

:24:32.:24:35.

and clear boundaries. They need the steadiness and continuity of a

:24:36.:24:39.

loving home. I certainly agree that the home is much more important than

:24:40.:24:43.

the school in giving a child a sense of self worth and stability and a

:24:44.:24:48.

sense of identity as to who they are. They need that continuity. Are

:24:49.:24:56.

two parents better than one? Is that the same for same-sex couples?

:24:57.:25:01.

Absolutely. If you are a five-year-old child at home with two

:25:02.:25:05.

parents, there is a one in ten chance they will split up if they

:25:06.:25:09.

are married parents but a one in three chance they will split up if

:25:10.:25:12.

they are not married. I am not trying to being alive is parents who

:25:13.:25:15.

are not lucky enough to be in that position, I am just trying to say

:25:16.:25:19.

the very best start in life are kids is when that child has the love and

:25:20.:25:25.

intention -- and attention and involvement of both parents. White

:25:26.:25:30.

agree also heard about the herd mentality leading to the riots. --

:25:31.:25:40.

you also heard. Where were the parents when there were 13-year-olds

:25:41.:25:44.

and 14-year-olds smashing their way into shops in the middle of the

:25:45.:25:49.

night? Those kids need to take responsibility. We need to make sure

:25:50.:25:54.

the police are doing their job. Why were parents allowing them to be out

:25:55.:25:59.

in the first place question if parents cannot exercise authority,

:26:00.:26:02.

that is when the state can help give them the support for single parents.

:26:03.:26:06.

The impact of technology on children, something I worry about

:26:07.:26:10.

all the time and lots of my peer group, in terms of screen time, time

:26:11.:26:16.

on computers, is it a good or bad thing? It is both. It is an amazing,

:26:17.:26:23.

liberating joy for young people to experience the whole world and

:26:24.:26:30.

universe on screen and the collectivity between young people

:26:31.:26:33.

everywhere. It also can be an incredible evil. Clearly, as we

:26:34.:26:43.

know, with predators. It can be a distraction from reading books,

:26:44.:26:48.

sitting down with family and talking over males with brothers and

:26:49.:26:52.

sisters. It is both. It is neutral. We had to teach how to use it,

:26:53.:26:58.

rather than be used by it. ) you are prepared to embrace it. Would you

:26:59.:27:04.

like to see more of it used educationally? -- you are prepared

:27:05.:27:11.

to embrace it. Compare computer games to the drudgery in some

:27:12.:27:15.

classrooms, if we could use those approaches to animate and excite

:27:16.:27:20.

young people, in a good way that opens up their minds and

:27:21.:27:26.

understandings, that is fabulous. It has led to people not just spending

:27:27.:27:30.

too much time at the screen but an over sexualisation of children. Sky

:27:31.:27:35.

that is a big challenge. We have lots of programmes about how we

:27:36.:27:40.

avoid children having access to adult material on the internet.

:27:41.:27:55.

Actually, social media and sexting, that should not be happening. People

:27:56.:28:03.

have been driven to self harm and, in some cases, suicide. We need to

:28:04.:28:07.

tell kids that social media is a great tool but it needs to be used

:28:08.:28:16.

responsibly because it can be dangerous. Are you shocked by the

:28:17.:28:20.

scale of what has been revealed through investigations like Jimmy

:28:21.:28:24.

Savile, Cyril Smith? We could go on and on. Who could not be shocked?

:28:25.:28:36.

Even the most hard-nosed child protection official could not have

:28:37.:28:45.

been affected. Some of the stuff that has been coming out is deeply

:28:46.:28:49.

troubling. The problem I have, all the good work this Gutman has been

:28:50.:29:00.

doing on child protection, really improving the safeguarding of

:29:01.:29:02.

children, there are historic cases which are coming up weekly. They

:29:03.:29:12.

need to get to the bottom of it. Was there a cover-up? Should people

:29:13.:29:18.

still be brought to justice? To make sure from those lessons that we get

:29:19.:29:22.

it child protection policy in 2014 which is fit for purpose for our

:29:23.:29:25.

kids in a technological age which is fit for purpose for our

:29:26.:29:27.

kids in a technological and is being properly followed. Education has

:29:28.:29:35.

also been part of some of these investigations. Of course. There

:29:36.:29:40.

have been some appalling cases of abuse of power over helpless

:29:41.:29:48.

children. We have to move on. We have to ensure that nothing like

:29:49.:29:53.

that is happening today and that schools have the best possible

:29:54.:29:58.

systems in place. It is about respecting people and helping them

:29:59.:30:03.

to respect themselves, which is the point about sexting. It is about how

:30:04.:30:07.

neutral digitalisation is. It can be a great force for good and evil.

:30:08.:30:11.

Schools and parents need to do more to educate young people and to use

:30:12.:30:18.

it well. PMQs was a feisty affair yesterday. There was a

:30:19.:30:23.

statistician's dream exchange. Or not. Look at this. Can he tell us

:30:24.:30:29.

whether the number of people having to wait more than the guaranteed two

:30:30.:30:32.

months for cancer treatment has got better? The number of people being

:30:33.:30:38.

treated for cancer has gone up by 50% and we are meeting the kid

:30:39.:30:43.

waiting time target, particularly the waiting time target for accident

:30:44.:30:49.

and emergency. -- the key waiting time targets. We introduced for the

:30:50.:30:52.

first time ever a Cancer Drugs Fund which is treating 50,000 people. The

:30:53.:30:59.

in the four years since the reorganisation, have the number of

:31:00.:31:03.

people waiting more than the guaranteed four hours in A got

:31:04.:31:08.

better or worse? The average waiting time when the shadow Secretary of

:31:09.:31:13.

State was Secretary of State was 77 minutes. Under this government, it

:31:14.:31:17.

is 30 minutes. He asked me to defend my record over the last four years.

:31:18.:31:23.

I will. There are 7000 more doctors, 4000 more nurses, over 1000

:31:24.:31:31.

more midwives. We are treating over 1 million more patients a year.

:31:32.:31:35.

Before his reorganisation, the number of people waiting more than

:31:36.:31:41.

four hours was 353 and after his reorganisation it has risen to

:31:42.:31:51.

939,000 -- 353,000. In million more patients treated, a Cancer Drugs

:31:52.:31:54.

Fund for the first time, more doctors, more nurses, more

:31:55.:31:58.

midwives, more people being treated. And it is official, the best NHS in

:31:59.:32:00.

the world. That was yesterday. And it is official, the best NHS in

:32:01.:32:08.

like ships passing in the night. The Leader of the Opposition gave one

:32:09.:32:11.

set of statistics and the Prime Minister replied with a different

:32:12.:32:16.

set of statistics using different parameters. Richard Murray, director

:32:17.:32:20.

of policy at The King's Fund. Let us see if he can shed light on it. What

:32:21.:32:25.

are best metrics by which to judge the performance of the health

:32:26.:32:32.

service? There are a number. The key ones are those in the NHS

:32:33.:32:35.

Constitution and those were debated yesterday around waiting time in

:32:36.:32:41.

accident and emergency, waiting time for routine operations, and waiting

:32:42.:32:45.

times for cancer. These are processed targets, about how long

:32:46.:32:48.

you wait. We would also like to know about how well people are treated

:32:49.:32:53.

but the data is not available. In terms of waiting times, in the

:32:54.:32:58.

round, how is the health service performing? Are things getting

:32:59.:33:05.

better or worse? Until quite recently, performance was holding up

:33:06.:33:09.

well, particular considering the health service has had no real term

:33:10.:33:13.

increase in funding since 2010. It was looking pretty good. What we

:33:14.:33:16.

have seen now are the beginnings of cracks in the service. A has had a

:33:17.:33:22.

very difficult spring which is unusual. Normally spring is the time

:33:23.:33:25.

it does quite well. We have seen the 18 week target for hip replacements

:33:26.:33:31.

and how long people wait for cataracts and routine operations,

:33:32.:33:34.

that was broken in February and March. It has just been caught back

:33:35.:33:38.

now. The waiting time for cancer as well was broken for the first time.

:33:39.:33:42.

But only just. None of these are catastrophic. Quite marginal. If you

:33:43.:33:48.

add them up, they begin to be more significant. A number of cracks

:33:49.:33:52.

across the system. Each one on its own probably isn't that great. The

:33:53.:33:55.

elephant in the room is the money. The money seems to be deteriorating.

:33:56.:34:02.

But that was not discussed yesterday. Thank you very much. With

:34:03.:34:07.

us now is the Health Minister, Dan Poulter, and the Shadow Health

:34:08.:34:11.

Secretary, Andy Burnham. Welcome. Andy Burnham, let me come to you

:34:12.:34:16.

first. Labour is very critical of the Government's handling of the

:34:17.:34:21.

health service. What is the most important fact you can give us that

:34:22.:34:26.

sums up your case that things are getting a lot worse? A is the

:34:27.:34:33.

barometer of the whole health and care system. If there is a problem

:34:34.:34:37.

anywhere in the system, in social care or general practice, in the

:34:38.:34:42.

end, it tells in pressure in A We are coming up to the point soon, in

:34:43.:34:48.

a couple of weeks, when hospital A will have missed the

:34:49.:34:51.

Government's own target for a whole year put up could you remind us what

:34:52.:34:57.

the target is. They lowered it. The use to be 98% of patients would be

:34:58.:35:01.

seen within four hours. The current government lowered it to 95. They

:35:02.:35:06.

had an argument for doing it. They are not even hitting the lowered

:35:07.:35:12.

target. The A target is the barometer and it is telling us that

:35:13.:35:16.

there are severe storms ahead for the NHS. As Richard Murray said, the

:35:17.:35:20.

cracks are appearing under the Government is not getting a grip on

:35:21.:35:26.

it. What do you say to that? The health service has faced challenges,

:35:27.:35:35.

and -- an ageing population. Would you answer his point? We have not

:35:36.:35:41.

got all day. We have a lot of patients getting older, we have

:35:42.:35:46.

increasing patient demand of the NHS, the health service is bearing

:35:47.:35:51.

up and treating people very well. We have very good patient outcomes and

:35:52.:35:54.

people are experiencing very good standards of care. In terms of

:35:55.:35:58.

looking at a tee, it is the case there is a direct comparison the

:35:59.:36:02.

public can make between how a conservative led government is

:36:03.:36:05.

delivering A services compared to a Welsh administration in Wales. In

:36:06.:36:10.

this country, we have found we are making sure 95% of patients are

:36:11.:36:13.

being treated on the whole in a timely manner. In Wales... Hold on.

:36:14.:36:20.

Forgive me. The Prime Minister talks about Wales every week and I am sure

:36:21.:36:24.

at some stage we will come back to Wales. Let us stick with what you

:36:25.:36:27.

are responsible for. Are you telling us you are hitting your 95% target

:36:28.:36:34.

of 95% of people who go to A being seen in under four hours? We have

:36:35.:36:43.

been doing that consistently. We haven't. We had a difficult winter

:36:44.:36:51.

the winter before. Sometimes A can have difficulties. Let me bring in

:36:52.:36:58.

Andy Burnham. That is not right what the minister said. They have hit the

:36:59.:37:02.

target is some weeks but the NHS as a whole has listed in recent weeks.

:37:03.:37:11.

Hospital iron tees, the A target as a whole includes walk-in centres,

:37:12.:37:16.

if you look at hospital A, they have not hit the Government's target

:37:17.:37:24.

for 15 league 50 weeks. The minister did not answer that -- for 50 weeks.

:37:25.:37:33.

What is your answer? We have trying to look for a crisis in A I am my

:37:34.:37:40.

doctor and I still work in the NHS and I know the

:37:41.:37:40.

doctor and I still work in the NHS and I know NHS is coping very well.

:37:41.:37:46.

This is beginning to get a little bit like Prime Minister's Questions.

:37:47.:37:50.

Andy Burnham is making points and you are answering with different

:37:51.:37:54.

points that are not germane to the point he has made. Let us confront

:37:55.:38:01.

this. In hospital A, have you failed to meet your target for a

:38:02.:38:05.

long time now? It is not the case we are struggling to meet the target.

:38:06.:38:11.

You cannot look at A in isolation. Is to use me, minister I am looking

:38:12.:38:16.

at it in isolation and I am asking you one more time. Have you failed

:38:17.:38:21.

to meet your A hospital target for a long time? There are some weeks

:38:22.:38:29.

when hospitals fail to meet targets. Consistently, we have been meeting

:38:30.:38:34.

targets broadly. We will have to move on. Andy Burnham's response. It

:38:35.:38:41.

is just not true. They have been missing the target in hospital A

:38:42.:38:48.

for nearly a year. The question is a while? Nobody wants this trading

:38:49.:38:52.

statistics. What is happening to people's real experience of the

:38:53.:38:57.

NHS? People are finding it harder to get GP appointments. They do not

:38:58.:39:02.

have support in the home anymore. That is what is driving people to

:39:03.:39:07.

A in greater numbers. The reason why the system is under such

:39:08.:39:11.

pressure is because people cannot be discharged home from hospital

:39:12.:39:15.

because the social care has been cut. This is mismanagement of the

:39:16.:39:21.

NHS on a pretty grand scale. It all goes back to the reorganisation they

:39:22.:39:27.

said they would never have. No top-down reorganisation, remember?

:39:28.:39:31.

It through the NHS into chaos when it most needed stability. The NHS

:39:32.:39:35.

has been going downhill on their watch. This is what Ed Miliband

:39:36.:39:41.

pointed out yesterday. You say that, Andy Burnham, and it is clear that

:39:42.:39:46.

you can see some cracks developing, but the latest report from the fund

:39:47.:39:52.

says that despite no real rise in spending, on key performance

:39:53.:39:58.

measures, the NHS has provided services to a growing population and

:39:59.:40:02.

maintain the quality of these services. Things may not be as good

:40:03.:40:09.

as they should be, but according to The King's Fund, it is not a crisis.

:40:10.:40:14.

Not yet, anyway. What I said was that the NHS has been going downhill

:40:15.:40:19.

on their watch. I think the figures will tell you that. Let us look at

:40:20.:40:23.

the overall figure. Public satisfaction was around 70% when we

:40:24.:40:26.

left government. It is around 60% today. The service is heading in the

:40:27.:40:33.

wrong direction. That is what people's experience is telling us.

:40:34.:40:36.

Crucially, Ed Miliband laid out a series of issues yesterday. Cancer

:40:37.:40:43.

treatment, people are now waiting longer to start cancer treatment.

:40:44.:40:46.

The government has missed for the first time as Richard Murray said

:40:47.:40:51.

its cancer target. All right. He needs to have a say now, Ian Poulter

:40:52.:40:59.

-- Dan Poulter. What matters is patient experience. Over the last

:41:00.:41:03.

four years, there are 35,000 more people being treated for cancer than

:41:04.:41:08.

before. 50,000 people now have access to cancer drugs they would

:41:09.:41:11.

not have had under the previous government. These are things that

:41:12.:41:15.

are improving the care and changing the lives of patients. We have

:41:16.:41:19.

introduced a friends and family test to get direct feedback on the

:41:20.:41:23.

quality of care they receive helping to improve services. As The King's

:41:24.:41:27.

Fund said, yes, there are always going to be pressures on the NHS,

:41:28.:41:31.

but the quality of care and patient experience remains good. The Labour

:41:32.:41:37.

Party are grasping at straws. The King's Labour that there is a

:41:38.:41:44.

crisis. It says the quality of the service has been maintained, but it

:41:45.:41:49.

goes on to say it is deeply pessimistic about 2015-16 when you

:41:50.:41:54.

will run out of money. It says there is a risk... It does not agree there

:41:55.:42:00.

is a crisis now, but it sees a crisis coming. Andy Burnham is a

:42:01.:42:04.

professional politician. I work as a doctor and I see the quality of care

:42:05.:42:10.

being delivered. What is your point about 2015? Are we going to have the

:42:11.:42:14.

money in the system to deliver the care? Every year during this

:42:15.:42:18.

Parliament, we have made ?4 billion worth of efficiency savings, not

:42:19.:42:23.

cuts, to free up more money. Can I come into this? Yes. The minister...

:42:24.:42:38.

All right. Andy Burnham, can the league I don't see you can complain

:42:39.:42:42.

about not having your site and I don't thing you can complain. He has

:42:43.:42:50.

done a good job of moving the goalposts. The Government will not

:42:51.:42:55.

answer about the main indicators. I know what it is like on the walls.

:42:56.:43:00.

The Prime Minister did this yesterday. He did not answer one of

:43:01.:43:04.

Ed Miliband's questions. That is what Dan Poulter is doing. The

:43:05.:43:10.

reason the money is such a problem is because... Hang on. There is no

:43:11.:43:20.

point both of you talking. Let Andy Burnham finishes pointers. The

:43:21.:43:24.

reason the money is such a problem is because the Government has frozen

:43:25.:43:29.

the NHS will stop from within that, they have wasted ?3 billion on a

:43:30.:43:35.

reorganisation that nobody wanted. They have given 6-figure payoffs to

:43:36.:43:41.

managers who have since been re-employed in the NHS. The money

:43:42.:43:45.

has come from general practice and mental health and it has put the NHS

:43:46.:43:50.

in a dangerous position. We are way over but for fairness sake, your

:43:51.:43:56.

final point, briefly. I work in the NHS and I see patients receiving

:43:57.:44:02.

good care thanks to as trusting doctors and nurses and we have made

:44:03.:44:06.

efficiency savings and it has meant more money has been freed up for

:44:07.:44:10.

patient care by reducing administrators. We have 14,000 more

:44:11.:44:14.

clinical staff delivering care. It is wrong for Labour to look at

:44:15.:44:19.

trying to grasp at straws and create a crisis. The Conservative run NHS

:44:20.:44:23.

in England delivers much better cared... I did say briefly. You are

:44:24.:44:28.

now taking advantage. Andy Burnham, Dan Poulter, we will have to leave

:44:29.:44:33.

it. It was better than the exchange in PMQs, I thought.

:44:34.:44:37.

Last week we were told we should ban fizzy drinks from the dinner table.

:44:38.:44:40.

Health professionals say they should be banned from schools. In Wales,

:44:41.:44:44.

Plaid Cymru say they will campaign for a tax on fizzy drinks when

:44:45.:44:49.

eventually the Welsh Assembly gets tax-raising powers. Joining us is

:44:50.:44:54.

Hwyell Williams, Plaid Cymru's Westminster health spokesman, and

:44:55.:44:58.

Gavin Partington, from the British soft drink 's Association. Hwyell

:44:59.:45:00.

Williams, are you not just jumping on the latest dietary public enemy

:45:01.:45:08.

number one bandwagon? No. We published this last year and have

:45:09.:45:13.

followed it up with careful studies as to the potential effects. Also

:45:14.:45:16.

what we could do with any money raised. It's been a policy we have

:45:17.:45:21.

had for some time and I'm glad to see others are agreeing with us.

:45:22.:45:26.

What would you do with the money? We'd like to employ more doctors in

:45:27.:45:30.

Wales. We have a crisis in general practice and hospital doctors for

:45:31.:45:35.

that matter, so we would use the money specifically to employ more

:45:36.:45:39.

doctors. It's true at the moment isn't it that we have had so much

:45:40.:45:43.

publicity that sugar is public enemy number one, particularly for

:45:44.:45:47.

children, all the fruit and fizzy drinks really are doing substantial

:45:48.:45:50.

damage? We have to make a deaf Rennes shakes here Jo between the

:45:51.:45:56.

facts -- differentiation between the facts and the campaigning. Obesity

:45:57.:46:01.

is a complicated problem stemming from a whole range of factors and

:46:02.:46:05.

cannot be attributed to one predict, let alone one ingredient like sugar.

:46:06.:46:09.

The fact of the matter is, if you look at the international experience

:46:10.:46:14.

where tax on soft drinks has been trying to stay in France, where

:46:15.:46:18.

sales dipped initially, subsequent increases have increased by 6% in

:46:19.:46:21.

the first four months, so it's not clear to me that a tax on soft

:46:22.:46:26.

drinks would either be fair or would have the desired effect that Mr

:46:27.:46:30.

Williams says he wishes to see. Do you accept that sugar contributes

:46:31.:46:35.

though to childhood obesity? I accept that sugar, along with other

:46:36.:46:41.

factors contribute to obesity, including the lack of exercise, the

:46:42.:46:45.

fact we sit behind computer desks and don't get enough sport, these

:46:46.:46:51.

are all facts and we should look at it realistically. To just pick out

:46:52.:46:57.

soft drinks is unfair. Really it's not going to tackle the possible.

:46:58.:47:03.

It's gesture politics I'm afraid. Do you agree soft drinks, people don't

:47:04.:47:10.

realise how much sugar exists in fruit juices on a daily basis?

:47:11.:47:16.

Increasingly because there is a lot of publicity around this, and we

:47:17.:47:22.

have led the way in providing a range of options that allow

:47:23.:47:26.

consumers to make the choice for their diet which is proper, if

:47:27.:47:30.

there's clear labelling on the product, you are free to choose, but

:47:31.:47:33.

to demonise one product isn't going to solve the problem. There is no

:47:34.:47:37.

point in demonising sugar, we used to have a thing about saturated fat,

:47:38.:47:42.

you cannot just attribute it to one ingredient? Well, sugar is one of

:47:43.:47:47.

the things. High fat consumption is another. The effect is undeniable.

:47:48.:47:54.

The figures show that about 28% of children in Wales and 15 obese are

:47:55.:47:59.

overweight. The actual effect of all of this is to be seen in every

:48:00.:48:03.

school playground in Wales. So I think whatever we can do, and public

:48:04.:48:07.

education is one of them certainly I think we have seen fat as another,

:48:08.:48:11.

sugar is a specific thing that we can look at and we should be doing

:48:12.:48:16.

it. Thank you both very much. Anthony, tax, fizzy soft drinks or

:48:17.:48:22.

not? Linking your last two items, why is the NHS going up so much,

:48:23.:48:26.

because people are not looking after themselves properly, they are eating

:48:27.:48:29.

and drinking the wrong things, they are not taking enough per size, we

:48:30.:48:35.

should be really, it's a national illness service, we need far more

:48:36.:48:40.

focus from Government in educating young people and parents and

:48:41.:48:43.

everybody to live well. Would you tax them? If necessary, absolutely,

:48:44.:48:47.

yes. Now, hands up if you like to write a

:48:48.:48:54.

biography about David Cameron? No. Our guest of the day is writing

:48:55.:48:59.

about him. In fact, he's writing an official biography of Mr Cameron

:49:00.:49:02.

which means he gets exclusive access to the Prime Minister, his family

:49:03.:49:06.

and frindzth friends I guess. We are join bid former star of the Sunday

:49:07.:49:11.

Politics who's writing an unofficial biography of David Cameron which

:49:12.:49:16.

means she dozen get the same access but can be as horrible as she likes

:49:17.:49:20.

about hill. Why are you writing a biography about David Cameron?

:49:21.:49:24.

There's only been one real biography of David Cameron so far, that was

:49:25.:49:30.

written very well in 2007 when David Cameron had only just become Leader

:49:31.:49:35.

of the Opposition. Who wrote that? Francis Elle yous and James Hanning.

:49:36.:49:40.

They did a great job, but lots has happened in David Cameron's life

:49:41.:49:46.

since then so the time is right for a new one. Do you agree? I think

:49:47.:49:53.

Isabel is going to write a great book. She's a great journalist. Do

:49:54.:49:57.

you think her book will be better? It will be different. For one thing,

:49:58.:50:01.

it's just a study of what happened when he's Prime Minister, so my book

:50:02.:50:07.

begins where Brown at Ten finished, when the door at Number Ten closes

:50:08.:50:11.

and the Prime Minister goes off and it will finish with the general

:50:12.:50:15.

election. So you won't be doing all the boring stuff? No, it won't be.

:50:16.:50:20.

It starts when he becomes Prime Minister, that's principally what

:50:21.:50:23.

interests me. It's not official, it's inside because this is I think

:50:24.:50:26.

the fifth of these books I've done in a row. He's given you an

:50:27.:50:31.

interview, hasn't he? People are talking to me because they are

:50:32.:50:35.

making a judgment. I've written these previous four books on Prime

:50:36.:50:38.

Ministers and they'll make a judgment but I'm trying to write as

:50:39.:50:42.

a historian, trying to stand back and think, in 30 years' time, how

:50:43.:50:47.

will we view him, what do we think about the Thatcher Government and

:50:48.:50:51.

what was being said in 1983 after her first Government, do we know

:50:52.:50:56.

much more now? It's valuable. I bet you are not getting an interview?

:50:57.:51:00.

Well, I think our books will be very different. My book is with Lord

:51:01.:51:06.

Ashcroft, the Conservative peer. A supporter of David Cameron - not!

:51:07.:51:10.

Whatever his personal view and I'm not privy the detail on that, you

:51:11.:51:14.

only have to see his polling to see how impartial he is, whether it's

:51:15.:51:19.

Lord Ashcroft talking about David Cameron or Ed Miliband or negligent.

:51:20.:51:24.

You don't know what Lord Ashcroft thinks about David Cameron? My brief

:51:25.:51:30.

is to write an objective biography and they'll be two different books,

:51:31.:51:34.

his starts when they enter Number Ten, mine with Lord Ashcroft starts

:51:35.:51:40.

at the beginning. His book is often referred to as authorised. That is

:51:41.:51:43.

not the case, as far as I understand, from Number Ten. I don't

:51:44.:51:46.

think you are really claiming that. He may get some access to David

:51:47.:51:49.

Cameron, I'm not sure that's been decided. You are getting access s,

:51:50.:51:56.

aren't you? It isn't an authorised version, authorised means that... I

:51:57.:52:00.

know what it means. Yes. I asked you, are you getting access to David

:52:01.:52:06.

Cameron? Am I getting access... You know everything. I don't know the

:52:07.:52:10.

answer to my question. I spoke to Downing Street about this this

:52:11.:52:12.

morning and I can answer the question which is, it's not clear.

:52:13.:52:16.

They were very unclear about it at this stage so he may or neonatal.

:52:17.:52:22.

I'm still quite early in this book. It'ser in mall that I get access to

:52:23.:52:27.

Prime Ministers and people around them -- it's normal.

:52:28.:52:34.

He's going to write a book from his entire life, he's an extraordinary

:52:35.:52:39.

human being, love or loathe him, he's a phenomenal politician.

:52:40.:52:47.

But he didn't win the election? But look at what he's done since. He's

:52:48.:52:56.

an extraordinary person, a well-informed biography will have a

:52:57.:52:59.

great market. Is he a phenomenal person? Lord Ashcroft and I think

:53:00.:53:05.

it's too early to judge. The French revolution! He wrote

:53:06.:53:15.

recently that history would be kinder to his contemporaries. On the

:53:16.:53:19.

radio you were supportive of David Cameron. We are reserving judgment

:53:20.:53:22.

at the moment, there is a lot of research to be done before drawing a

:53:23.:53:26.

conclusion. When is yours out? Post-election. And your?s

:53:27.:53:32.

Post-election. That's a waste of time. We need them before. The

:53:33.:53:37.

outcome of the election will make a difference.

:53:38.:53:42.

Political cartoons often highlight the inadequacies of politicians and

:53:43.:53:44.

provide a sideways look at current affairs. During the First World War,

:53:45.:53:48.

they had a much more important purpose in mind sattising and

:53:49.:53:52.

be-Dunking the German threat was an important tool in raising spirits in

:53:53.:53:57.

Blighty. A new series of cartoons has been released which looks at the

:53:58.:54:01.

run-up to war a century ago and they have been penned by some familiar

:54:02.:54:02.

names. Steve Bell, the Forwardian

:54:03.:54:52.

cartoonist joins me now. Welcome to the programme. We have just seen

:54:53.:54:57.

those, we may be able to show some original World War I cartoons which

:54:58.:55:03.

answer the question - how do their compare, today's and

:55:04.:55:04.

answer the question - how do their compare, today's the ones done at

:55:05.:55:06.

the time? The ones done today weren't done in the heat of the

:55:07.:55:10.

moment while it was all happen, they were done with a hundred years of

:55:11.:55:15.

reflection. But I suppose I can only think about the one I did which was

:55:16.:55:19.

done I think more or less in the same way, I had a much longer

:55:20.:55:24.

deadline so was able to take more time to finish it off. Essentially,

:55:25.:55:28.

the principle was the same, getting the idea, summing up a situation or

:55:29.:55:33.

a moment, in my case, the moment of the assassination. Do you think a

:55:34.:55:39.

lot's changed in your trade? Yes and no. In essentials it hasn't because

:55:40.:55:51.

it's making seasons out of politics through a visual medium. The nuts

:55:52.:55:57.

and bolts of politics has changed lots. I don't know if you had a BBC

:55:58.:56:03.

100 years ago. None of this existed so it's all changed there. But I

:56:04.:56:08.

think the press was far more important, so in a sense, there

:56:09.:56:12.

seemed to be more slots for cartoonists then. Seems to be more

:56:13.:56:18.

papers are closing so there seems to be less slots but I think it's

:56:19.:56:24.

booming elsewhere in other media. As you say, many cartoons were at the

:56:25.:56:27.

for front of bolstering the war effort, if you like, the war

:56:28.:56:32.

campaign. Do we still see that image today or is it the exact opposite,

:56:33.:56:37.

is it more antiwar than bolstering effort, if you think of recent

:56:38.:56:42.

conflicts? We don't find many Steve Bells who are supporting the Iraq

:56:43.:56:48.

war or Afghanistan and cartoons are so brilliant, aren't they, at

:56:49.:56:52.

lightening what the politicians are not saying to us and using the

:56:53.:56:56.

visual medium to appeal to a different part of the brain. So most

:56:57.:57:01.

cartoonists tend to be critical, rather than supporters. The idea of

:57:02.:57:05.

an official Government cartoonist would be really bizarre, you know,

:57:06.:57:10.

on the NHS, you know, a cartoonist saying what a great job the

:57:11.:57:16.

Government NHS policy is - unhikely. Your cartoon depicts the

:57:17.:57:23.

assassination of Archduck Ferdinand, do you think people know what the

:57:24.:57:29.

image means? -- Afterth archDuke? The particularity of it is

:57:30.:57:33.

horrifying. The actual what happened and what was said at the time of the

:57:34.:57:38.

assassination, it was horrible, people were killed. Politically,

:57:39.:57:40.

they people were killed. Politically,

:57:41.:57:44.

and all the rest of it, it's easy to take the Mickey out of that, but as

:57:45.:57:48.

something happens, it take the Mickey out of that, but as

:57:49.:57:54.

and arresting. The significance ballooned and swelled and that's the

:57:55.:57:57.

thing about the day-to-day thing, the thing that's been on the BBC,

:57:58.:58:02.

into how this apparent hi small act blew up into a major thing. It was

:58:03.:58:07.

the spark. Anthony, do you think teaching children about the events

:58:08.:58:12.

leading up to World War I, including the assassination should be

:58:13.:58:16.

compulsory? Oh, absolutely. It's our world and the lessons of what

:58:17.:58:19.

happened there are so profound and the late radioture and the cartoons

:58:20.:58:24.

and the painting -- literature. It's magnificent. And tragic. Time for

:58:25.:58:31.

the answer to our quiz: Which subject is taught at Wellington

:58:32.:58:36.

College? Air dressing, how to be Prime Minister, happiness or basic

:58:37.:58:44.

car mechanics. Steve Bell thinks it's... What do you think? Happiness

:58:45.:58:50.

for well-being. That's it. I'll be back on BBC One tonight with This

:58:51.:58:57.

Week. Portillo, Abbott, Green. Bye!

:58:58.:59:01.

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil look at how much a private education is worth and whether it is time to tax fizzy drinks. Plus Steve Bell on the political importance of cartoons in World War One.


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