11/07/2014 Daily Politics


11/07/2014

Andrew Neil is in Edinburgh for a special edition on the Scottish independence referendum. Jo Coburn in Westminster has other political news, including the universal credit row.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 11/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Welcome to this special edition of the Daily Politics,

:00:37.:00:40.

So, will the Kingdom stay united or does Scotland go it's own way?

:00:41.:00:51.

The polls and the bookies favour the union.

:00:52.:00:54.

But Nationalists say don't underestimate this man, Alex

:00:55.:00:56.

He has a habit of confounding the pollsters and the bookies.

:00:57.:01:05.

Scottish voters have been bombarded with stats and spin.

:01:06.:01:07.

Many say they're also bamboozled - and some have even managed to avoid

:01:08.:01:13.

the whole thing all together, as our Adam's been finding out.

:01:14.:01:21.

You don't know what it is? The independence referendum? I've never

:01:22.:01:25.

heard anything of it. And here in Westminster, a committee

:01:26.:01:28.

of MPs says the taxpayer lost ?1 Was the 500-year-old business

:01:29.:01:31.

sold off too cheap? Is the Government's flagship

:01:32.:01:34.

universal credit programme Labour say so -

:01:35.:01:36.

the Government insist not. And with us

:01:37.:01:39.

for the whole programme today are Lesley Riddoch from the Scotsman

:01:40.:01:52.

and Alex Massie from the Spectator. Ten weeks to go. Some of the state

:01:53.:02:07.

of the campaign as you see it. There are two campaigns, the official one

:02:08.:02:12.

full of party leaders, Alex Salmond, keynote speakers. There is a

:02:13.:02:15.

grassroots one happening all over the country. I've been at 107

:02:16.:02:20.

meetings since September the 9th. I've been counting. That's a lot!

:02:21.:02:26.

Change happens in different ways. It can happen a little all over the

:02:27.:02:30.

place and underneath the radar. Is there a difference between the two

:02:31.:02:34.

campaigns? A difference in tone and what is being said? Yes. The yes

:02:35.:02:40.

campaign is a generally optimistic, buoyant one. It has to be because it

:02:41.:02:44.

is looking to a different future. But the no campaign is a might is

:02:45.:02:50.

right campaign. How would you sum up the state of the campaign ten weeks

:02:51.:02:54.

to go? Well, the state of the campaign is that the yes side are

:02:55.:02:58.

losing. On that everyone agrees. There is a difference between

:02:59.:03:01.

pollsters as to exactly by how much the yes campaign are losing but, at

:03:02.:03:05.

the moment, it's quite clear that no are winning. It's a bit like if

:03:06.:03:10.

you're playing roulette. You have ten spins of the wheel and if the

:03:11.:03:15.

yes side bets on red, they need Reg to come up seven or eight times of

:03:16.:03:20.

ten if they are to prevail. They say the polls are long, are skewed, not

:03:21.:03:24.

capturing the mood on the ground. That could be true but this is not a

:03:25.:03:32.

question where you have 100 things the pollsters have to try and find.

:03:33.:03:36.

Are you worried that the yes campaign has lost momentum? They

:03:37.:03:39.

seemed to have been doing very well in the spring and then the gap began

:03:40.:03:47.

to widen again. I know people say this when they are perceived to be

:03:48.:03:50.

on the losing end of opinion polls but they do fluctuate a locked and

:03:51.:03:53.

the key things are, for example, things like the missing million.

:03:54.:03:58.

There are folk who have never voted in Scotland in the large housing

:03:59.:04:03.

estate. They've been canvassed by some young folk and they have been

:04:04.:04:07.

incredibly insubordinate independent if they turn out. Which is

:04:08.:04:13.

interesting, and we don't know. -- incredibly supportive of

:04:14.:04:18.

independence. Has there been a compelling and agreed case for the

:04:19.:04:21.

union? That is a concern. It runs on the

:04:22.:04:28.

risks of uncertainties of independence but they are not

:04:29.:04:31.

necessarily a case against independence or for the union and

:04:32.:04:34.

it's true that the no campaign has relied more on dreary pros rather

:04:35.:04:42.

than Ellie element of pro-tree. -- any element of poetry. The

:04:43.:04:51.

referendum is on September the 18th. The campaign has been going on

:04:52.:04:52.

for ever. But we'll soon be moving

:04:53.:04:54.

into the final stretch. So let's have a look

:04:55.:04:57.

at how the polls are shaping up. Only those on the Scottish

:04:58.:05:00.

electoral register can vote. They will be asked

:05:01.:05:02.

a simple question - should Scotland But in together each of the last

:05:03.:05:10.

polls put together by this six main polling comprising Scotland and

:05:11.:05:16.

leaving aside those who don't know, 43% intend to vote yes to

:05:17.:05:21.

independence with 57% intending to vote no. 48% of men said they would

:05:22.:05:27.

vote yes, compared to 38% women. Older people need more persuasion on

:05:28.:05:35.

the independence merits. 64% of over 60 said they would vote no with 36

:05:36.:05:41.

saying they would vote yes. This will be the first national action

:05:42.:05:47.

where 16 and 17-year-olds are able to vote. What do they think? That is

:05:48.:05:50.

not good news for the yes campaign either. Taking out the undecided,

:05:51.:06:05.

36% said they would vote yes and 64% said no. What of English people

:06:06.:06:06.

living in Scotland? There are nearly 400,000 people born in England but

:06:07.:06:08.

living in Scotland, about 8% of the population, with only about a

:06:09.:06:11.

quarter of them intending to vote yes for independence.

:06:12.:06:17.

We're joined now by Professor John Curtice,

:06:18.:06:18.

from Strathclyde University, who knows exactly what Scotland thinks,

:06:19.:06:21.

Your latest poll of polls has yes on 43, no on 57, so roughly 65 and 40.

:06:22.:06:35.

That would suggest the campaign hasn't changed much. -- 60-40. But

:06:36.:06:42.

it has been generating excitement and interest. If we go back to last

:06:43.:06:47.

Christmas before the Scottish Government published its White Paper

:06:48.:06:50.

on independence, the polls were pointing on average to something

:06:51.:06:55.

like 61% for no and 39% four yes. All the opinion polls agree that

:06:56.:07:02.

during the winter, the yes side made progress such that by the end of

:07:03.:07:08.

March we were all looking at around 53% for the yes side. The worry for

:07:09.:07:13.

the yes side is that it's much less clear that they've made much

:07:14.:07:17.

progress since the end of March, in other words the second quarter of

:07:18.:07:21.

2014, which is not looking anything like as good as the first quarter

:07:22.:07:26.

and with just over two months to go, they have a long way to go. The

:07:27.:07:30.

second reason we have uncertainty and why this campaign will be fought

:07:31.:07:34.

very strongly to the end is that the polls do not all agree with each

:07:35.:07:39.

other. 43% is an average of some polls that say it is between 45 and

:07:40.:07:45.

47 and a poll out this morning says it is 47, another says it is 41, 42.

:07:46.:07:50.

We don't know which of those sets of results is more accurate. If only

:07:51.:07:54.

men had the vote, Scotland would be independent. If only men had the

:07:55.:07:59.

vote there would be a very tight race. Some of the polls suggest that

:08:00.:08:04.

a majority of men are in favour and there is an enormous gender gap and

:08:05.:08:10.

this is a gap which has long been noticed in Scottish politics so far

:08:11.:08:14.

as willingness to vote for the SMB and support for independence. That

:08:15.:08:19.

gap seems to have remained constant. -- the SNP. Does the polling tell us

:08:20.:08:27.

why women are more resistant? Two reasons seem to emerge. One is that

:08:28.:08:32.

women are more likely to feel the consequences of independence are

:08:33.:08:38.

uncertain and voters who think they are uncertain are less likely to

:08:39.:08:42.

vote yes, weathermen or woman. Secondly, women seem to be less

:08:43.:08:48.

convinced that independence will bring economic benefits to Scotland

:08:49.:08:50.

and all the issues the campaign is about, the one that matters most to

:08:51.:08:56.

voters is whether they think independence will be economically

:08:57.:09:02.

beneficial or not. If the yes side are going to win, that is the issue

:09:03.:09:06.

on which they need to make progress above all. Why is the independence

:09:07.:09:10.

campaign struggling to get women's votes? Or women are more able to say

:09:11.:09:15.

when they don't know than men. You think a bigger number of them are

:09:16.:09:20.

saying they don't know? They are more likely relatively to say yes.

:09:21.:09:25.

If I can get a word in... The point is that when you say something, you

:09:26.:09:30.

can get folk jumping down your throat. It is very much easier to

:09:31.:09:34.

keep your powder dry and hide behind what ever vote responses going to

:09:35.:09:38.

keep some distance and allow you to have time to think things through

:09:39.:09:43.

and I think it's no coincidence that Christmas allowed a bit of a Philip

:09:44.:09:48.

for the yes campaign because it allowed intimate, ordinary campaigns

:09:49.:09:51.

between people that were sincere and less localised. You get the very

:09:52.:09:57.

contested public space and I think tactically everyone ran screaming

:09:58.:10:04.

from it. They are not running, they are saying no. The view on the yes

:10:05.:10:07.

side is that if you can move people a little bit over time, that is

:10:08.:10:14.

good. Time is running out but the opinion polls wouldn't have even put

:10:15.:10:18.

us here because they wouldn't have predicted the last two SNP election

:10:19.:10:19.

victories. Has it come predicted the last two SNP election

:10:20.:10:26.

Alex Salmond that young folk are not anywhere near as enthusiastic about

:10:27.:10:32.

independence as he thought? It might be a disappointment but in truth it

:10:33.:10:37.

was always a mistake to assume that the SMB and franchised 16 and

:10:38.:10:42.

17-year-olds on the grounds that it would be to their benefit. I think

:10:43.:10:46.

we have to accept that they believe in principle that they should have

:10:47.:10:56.

the vote. I'm suggesting to you that it was not the principal

:10:57.:10:59.

motivation. Here is one example where probably a government did

:11:00.:11:02.

something because it believed in it rather than necessarily because it

:11:03.:11:06.

simply thought it was to its own benefit. Are you surprised that

:11:07.:11:10.

young people are distinctly less in favour of independence than their

:11:11.:11:15.

parents? Not necessarily because young people have grown up in an era

:11:16.:11:18.

where you have the Scottish parliament in Edinburgh, where some

:11:19.:11:22.

of the political aspirations of the Scottish people have been met,

:11:23.:11:26.

whereas people in their late 30s and so on were the generation that were

:11:27.:11:31.

campaigning for that Parliament and so the institutional apparatus of

:11:32.:11:34.

Scottish politics is perhaps more important than it is for newly

:11:35.:11:39.

franchised young people. It's also the case that we don't really know

:11:40.:11:45.

exactly how many 16, 17 and 18-year-olds are all that engaged

:11:46.:11:49.

with politics anyway. They tend not to vote in huge numbers but I'm

:11:50.:11:54.

surprised that they are not more nationalist minded. There is still a

:11:55.:11:58.

large chunk of those who don't know in all the polls, a decent amount.

:11:59.:12:01.

The Nationalists are kind of betting the farm on the don't knows skewing

:12:02.:12:08.

their way. But I noticed a recent polls adjusted they were actually

:12:09.:12:13.

falling away of people that had already made up their minds. We had

:12:14.:12:18.

a couple of opinion polls today and one last weekend which suggest that

:12:19.:12:21.

the number of don't knows, which are not particularly large, look as

:12:22.:12:26.

though they are beginning to come down and the truth is that so far

:12:27.:12:32.

the evidence is that if they are coming down it isn't making any

:12:33.:12:37.

difference at all to the relative strength of yes and no so if the yes

:12:38.:12:40.

side were hoping to gain from the decisions of the undecided, there

:12:41.:12:45.

isn't any evidence of that so far. One final question. You hear it said

:12:46.:12:49.

again and again by those in favour of independence and the SNP and

:12:50.:12:53.

their supporters in the media that in 2011, ten weeks before the

:12:54.:12:56.

Hollywood elections to the parliament here, Labour had a

:12:57.:13:00.

double-digit lead over the SNP but Alex Salmond went on to win by 18

:13:01.:13:05.

points. Is that relevant to where we are now? Not entirely because it is

:13:06.:13:11.

very clear that why that happened in 2011 is that the Labour Party messed

:13:12.:13:14.

up its election campaign and it was a judgement on the failure of the

:13:15.:13:18.

Labour Party, together with the fact that people think the SNP have been

:13:19.:13:22.

rather good at governing Scotland. But if you look at what happened to

:13:23.:13:25.

the opinion polls during that campaign, you discover that they did

:13:26.:13:31.

identify a swing to the SNP but at the same time no swing in terms of

:13:32.:13:35.

more people being in favour of independence. The SNP won because

:13:36.:13:39.

they were regarded as capable of providing Scotland with government,

:13:40.:13:42.

not because it was a vote in favour of independence. Thanks for joining

:13:43.:13:44.

us. Let's go back to Joe in London. Now, here in Westminster a

:13:45.:13:49.

cross-party group of MPs is accusing the Government of making a royal

:13:50.:13:52.

mess of the Royal Mail sell-off. The Business Select Committee says

:13:53.:13:55.

that poor advice and a fear of failure

:13:56.:13:58.

on the Government's part caused the Royal Mail to be significantly

:13:59.:13:59.

undervalued - depriving taxpayers Business Secretary Vince Cable,

:14:00.:14:02.

who oversaw the sale, was defended by his boss Nick Clegg

:14:03.:14:04.

on LBC radio this morning. Share prices gyrate wildly and the

:14:05.:14:19.

Royal Mail's share prices have gyrated wildly and will continue to

:14:20.:14:23.

do so, I suspect the stop there has been a 25 per cent drop in the share

:14:24.:14:27.

price. The idea that Vince cable, wise though he is, should be a

:14:28.:14:32.

soothsayer and should have been able to predict that, I think is

:14:33.:14:35.

something... And by the way, in the process, he's given thousands of

:14:36.:14:38.

people working in Royal Mail a piece of it.

:14:39.:14:40.

Well, here in the studio are Billy Hayes, General Secretary

:14:41.:14:42.

of the Communication Workers Union, which represents postal workers,

:14:43.:14:44.

and Adam Memon from the Centre for Policy Studies - a think tank

:14:45.:14:47.

Welcome to both of you. A stake in the Royal Mail. The taxpayer me have

:14:48.:15:07.

been short-changed but postal workers got almost 3500 free shares

:15:08.:15:07.

each in a workers got almost 3500 free shares

:15:08.:15:07.

done well. Postal workers were given the Royal Mail. The taxpayer me have

:15:08.:15:10.

been short-changed but shares as an attempt to buy them off. When we

:15:11.:15:15.

polled our members, they were against privatisation. Vince Cable

:15:16.:15:22.

says it is all about hindsight. What is clear is that Vince Cable never

:15:23.:15:26.

had foresight. He lost the British public ?1 billion. If you are a

:15:27.:15:29.

postal worker and you lost an important package and you face the

:15:30.:15:33.

prospect of the SAC... Vince Cable has an opinion on everything. Postal

:15:34.:15:43.

workers have done well, haven't they? If you calculated how much

:15:44.:15:48.

they would make, they would make ?5,000. Not many people would say

:15:49.:15:52.

that was a bad deal. I think they would. Really? ? Only 368 turned the

:15:53.:16:02.

shares down. They did not have a choice. They did not have to do

:16:03.:16:09.

anything. The shares were put in their pay packet. Both the workers

:16:10.:16:17.

were against the sale of Royal Mail. 60% of the British public from all

:16:18.:16:20.

parties were opposed to the sale of Royal Mail. Vince Cable made a

:16:21.:16:25.

botched sale, he panicked, he did not have the foresight and he is

:16:26.:16:33.

trying to blame everybody else. It looks a bit of a disaster for

:16:34.:16:36.

taxpayers of a committee of MPs have said it was -- it was undersold.

:16:37.:16:49.

This is ?2 billion that taxpayers have got which they otherwise would

:16:50.:16:53.

not have. As the National Audit Office says taxpayers are no longer

:16:54.:16:56.

liable for the losses Royal Mail me or may not make. If you look back at

:16:57.:17:03.

what Royal Mail was doing in the past, yes, they are making profits,

:17:04.:17:08.

but after so many decades of trying to do that, finally the government

:17:09.:17:15.

has been able to do this, and the ordinary people who have bought

:17:16.:17:18.

these shows, many of whom have not bought shares before, these are

:17:19.:17:24.

average people who have benefited. If you are saying it was a

:17:25.:17:29.

successful thing to do, the price has rose as high as 1600 and 18p,

:17:30.:17:34.

how did he get it so wrong in terms of how to price it? The share price

:17:35.:17:40.

is a reflection of expectations of future earnings. Partly it is

:17:41.:17:44.

because of the fact that so many employers decided to accept --

:17:45.:17:51.

employees decided to accept these shares which meant strike action was

:17:52.:17:56.

unlikely and it was more stable and investors see that and see it as a

:17:57.:18:00.

better bet and a good opportunity to invest. The fact that the share

:18:01.:18:04.

price has gone up is not a bad thing. It means the 700,000 people

:18:05.:18:11.

across the country are benefiting. These are not institutional

:18:12.:18:13.

investors, these are people on average incomes. What do you say to

:18:14.:18:19.

that? I know you have said hindsight is a wonderful thing, but could you

:18:20.:18:23.

or I have estimated how much we could have got for selling off Royal

:18:24.:18:27.

Mail and the figures that have been given sure that long-term it could

:18:28.:18:32.

be very successful? I am not a city banker. I am not an institution

:18:33.:18:38.

advice in the government on the sale and then another section of my

:18:39.:18:44.

company making a profit on the sale. I do not know if you run a business,

:18:45.:18:48.

but if I had something for sale that was worth ?3 billion and I sold it

:18:49.:18:52.

for ?2 billion and then I argued that is good for me because I made

:18:53.:18:58.

?2 billion... It was sold. There was a doubt about whether you could

:18:59.:19:04.

sell. Absolutely. It was almost free money. The company was worth a lot

:19:05.:19:07.

more. City institutions got it wrong. 24 times oversubscribed. The

:19:08.:19:15.

great British public lost ?1 billion. The point you made earlier,

:19:16.:19:21.

the company 's which were advising and the companies which sold

:19:22.:19:28.

them... The indication was there was a conflict-of-interest. That is

:19:29.:19:34.

quite a big allegation. I do not know, but it seems odd to me that a

:19:35.:19:38.

company that is advising on the sale on one hand and another part of the

:19:39.:19:43.

company is benefiting and the select committee said there was not... You

:19:44.:19:50.

think there was? The ordinary person in the street would not understand

:19:51.:19:58.

somebody advising and benefiting. It is wrong of you to say that. There

:19:59.:20:04.

are firewalls. If you are saying they have broken firewalls and

:20:05.:20:10.

committed mass corporate fraud... I am saying if there was not a problem

:20:11.:20:18.

why has Vince Cable ask someone to come in and look at what happened?

:20:19.:20:24.

Everybody recognises it was botched. Not everybody. The National Audit

:20:25.:20:30.

Office. Vince Cable himself is looking at the sale and that is a

:20:31.:20:34.

little bit like judging your all homework, but the fact is that ?1

:20:35.:20:42.

billion went adrift. Let us ask about the pension liability, that

:20:43.:20:45.

had to be put onto the taxpayer. That is not great for the taxpayer.

:20:46.:20:52.

Not in the long term but obviously it is not desirable but it had to be

:20:53.:20:56.

done to get the Royal Mail into the market. It is a necessary cost

:20:57.:21:00.

because of the benefit of having the Royal Mail in the market in terms of

:21:01.:21:04.

the freedom it gives it and the people who benefited from

:21:05.:21:08.

investing, the employees, all of that is worthwhile. We only have a

:21:09.:21:13.

few seconds, you said it would destroy the Postal Service, has it?

:21:14.:21:19.

Look at what has happened to Post Office counters today. It is going

:21:20.:21:23.

to cause major problems. It has not done so, has it? They are talking

:21:24.:21:29.

about universal sale, Vince Cable should be sacked.

:21:30.:21:36.

Labour used to rule the roost here in Scotland.

:21:37.:21:38.

In 2011 the Nationalists did what the voting system was

:21:39.:21:42.

They won a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament.

:21:43.:21:46.

Scottish Labour is now the largest opposition party.

:21:47.:21:48.

I'm joined by their leader, Johann Lamont.

:21:49.:21:55.

Alistair Darling said this week that the red percussion is of a yes vote

:21:56.:22:01.

would be worse than the 2008 banking crisis for Scotland. More of the

:22:02.:22:09.

same scaremongering. I do not think it is scaremongering. I think it is

:22:10.:22:13.

important to be put out there what the consequences are. How would he

:22:14.:22:17.

know? Regardless of what the consequence would be people would

:22:18.:22:20.

want Scotland to be a separate country, I understand the passion,

:22:21.:22:24.

but on the other said it is important for the ball who are not

:22:25.:22:29.

sure to understand the scale of the challenge we would be facing --

:22:30.:22:32.

people. There would have to be cuts or taxes. That may or may not be

:22:33.:22:41.

true but that is not a 2008 scale banking crisis. How would anybody

:22:42.:22:47.

know that would be a consequence? He was a great deal closer to the

:22:48.:22:51.

banking crisis than I was so I would respect what he says. I love the

:22:52.:22:59.

fact that I live in a country where I can be Scottish, proud of my

:23:00.:23:03.

identity, my many identities, a Glaswegian and an islander, and be

:23:04.:23:08.

part of the country where we can work together, find ways of sorting

:23:09.:23:12.

out our differences, and in tough times we can share a re-source, and

:23:13.:23:19.

cool resource and risk. There are many people who feel the same and

:23:20.:23:23.

said to me, please tell people we feel is passionately about being in

:23:24.:23:28.

the United Kingdom as the yes people feel about Scotland leaving. Only

:23:29.:23:33.

23% of Scots regard themselves as British. What label you put on

:23:34.:23:38.

yourself is not the same as how people feel... It tells you how you

:23:39.:23:46.

feel... You feel Glaswegian. I call myself Glaswegian because it is

:23:47.:23:50.

where I was born. I, is self an islander because that is where my

:23:51.:23:57.

heart is. I know that very many people look at the United Kingdom

:23:58.:23:59.

and think we have achieved something pretty special. It is finding a way

:24:00.:24:04.

of protecting our Scottish institutions... As John Curtis

:24:05.:24:12.

explained to us, Labour was well ahead in the polls against Alex

:24:13.:24:15.

Salmond, you spectacularly collapsed and Alex Salmond won an overall

:24:16.:24:22.

majority. What is to stop another spectacular collapse? That is why we

:24:23.:24:27.

are far from complacent, out every gay. -- day. We know that in our

:24:28.:24:41.

hearts we do not have the confidence just to say that the polls are OK.

:24:42.:24:45.

The polls tell us something important but it will never be a

:24:46.:24:50.

substitute for talking to people and arguing and listening to what they

:24:51.:24:54.

are saying. The polls tell us that although you are the leader of the

:24:55.:24:57.

biggest party against independence only for 2% of Scots now you do you

:24:58.:25:05.

are -- who you are. That is a work in progress. I will have a critical

:25:06.:25:14.

role, but the debate is beyond party. One of the things that has

:25:15.:25:17.

come to this is that when politicians argue with each other

:25:18.:25:23.

people stop listening. We need to make sure that the voices that are

:25:24.:25:27.

here are the people who understand the consequences for them and their

:25:28.:25:31.

families. How long have you been leader? Two and a half years. 64% of

:25:32.:25:38.

people in Scotland think Ed Miliband is doing badly. Why should they

:25:39.:25:46.

listen to him about independence? I was out with Ed Miliband on two

:25:47.:25:51.

occasions in Scotland. At the time of the carrier being launched and

:25:52.:25:58.

four armed services day and what struck me was how popular he is. The

:25:59.:26:02.

extent to which people want to come and speak to him. 64% of bee pollen

:26:03.:26:12.

Scotland said he is doing badly -- people in Scotland. The Scots think

:26:13.:26:18.

worse of him than in London. If you ask people what they think of as

:26:19.:26:21.

idea of taking on the big energy companies ripping them off, people

:26:22.:26:27.

support him. They are behind him on some of the very big issues. Talking

:26:28.:26:34.

about zero hours contracts, he is on the side of people and I see it

:26:35.:26:38.

myself in working with them. He has that passion to make sure that

:26:39.:26:44.

politics is about a different kind of way of doing business. It is not

:26:45.:26:49.

getting through in the polls. You may be right. If Scotland votes no,

:26:50.:26:56.

can you tell us, can you commit to what extra devolution Scotland would

:26:57.:27:05.

get? Our commitment is to add proposal... Two things, on one side

:27:06.:27:16.

is the importance, if you have a Parliament that does not have

:27:17.:27:21.

accountability for raising money you end up not taking on the really

:27:22.:27:25.

difficult debates. That is how your party designed it. We have to face

:27:26.:27:32.

that... I think in the early stages we put in tax-raising powers. The

:27:33.:27:38.

SNP allowed them to fall into disuse. It was not... The SNP said

:27:39.:27:49.

we could not use them. I think we should have tax raising powers. On

:27:50.:27:54.

the other side, I think the argument about powers should not be about

:27:55.:27:57.

institutions arguing with each other it is about how these are used. That

:27:58.:28:03.

is why we also talk about what it would take to meet the needs of

:28:04.:28:08.

cities so that we can have strong economies and what we do in the

:28:09.:28:12.

island communities. You say you want more tax-raising powers, dead Ed --

:28:13.:28:37.

did Ed Balls veto that? No. What we said in our interim report was that

:28:38.:28:41.

we would be ready to look and we tested it and what I wanted was on

:28:42.:28:45.

the one hand fiscal accountability at on the other hand you do not

:28:46.:28:50.

break that sharing, you do not create unnecessary tax... What about

:28:51.:28:57.

Phil devolution of income tax? We came to a conclusion that we struck

:28:58.:29:06.

the right balance between making sure there is accountability but

:29:07.:29:09.

also that we did not put ourselves in the place where we were losing

:29:10.:29:13.

the benefits of sharing resources. What was Ed Balls view on film did

:29:14.:29:23.

-- Phil devolution of income tax? I do not know. You cannot do it

:29:24.:29:28.

without the Shadow Chancellor agreeing. Of course we do. What did

:29:29.:29:37.

he say? Through the period between the interim report and the full

:29:38.:29:42.

report the conclusion became too across a united movement was that

:29:43.:29:45.

was the way to strike the balance. Your party told us that independence

:29:46.:29:50.

would be killed stone dead with Scottish devolution. That did not go

:29:51.:29:55.

according to plan. Why would more devolution kill independence? That

:29:56.:30:00.

was not the purpose. I was very clear, I said, the first thing the

:30:01.:30:13.

SNP will says it is not good enough. It's a more fundamental question. We

:30:14.:30:18.

would told by the Labour Party that if Scotland had its own parliament

:30:19.:30:21.

with a limited array of powers on domestic matters, that would kill

:30:22.:30:26.

independence stone dead. That was 1999. This is 2014 and we're having

:30:27.:30:32.

able referendum on independence. I didn't say would kill independence

:30:33.:30:35.

stone dead because you will never kill something stone dead simply by

:30:36.:30:38.

setting up an institution. You have to win the political argument. The

:30:39.:30:43.

argument is not between institutions but how they use power, how you get

:30:44.:30:47.

people involved and that's the debate we have to have, rather than

:30:48.:30:53.

one that just asks with stitch -- which institution is stronger. Let

:30:54.:30:59.

me get some thoughts on our journalists. You see the

:31:00.:31:06.

intellectual bankruptcy of the party which hasn't had a decent idea in

:31:07.:31:10.

years. Labour haven't really recovered from the shock of losing

:31:11.:31:16.

in 2007, let alone in 2011. It was a party that had the arrogance and

:31:17.:31:19.

complacency to think it spoke as the voice of the people. It turns out

:31:20.:31:25.

that the people actually don't think the Labour Party represent them. The

:31:26.:31:31.

SNP is Goldie of some of the same mistakes but Labour's devolution

:31:32.:31:35.

proposals are utterly incoherent. On the one hand they say that while we

:31:36.:31:39.

need to do something with income tax, they put in a mechanism that

:31:40.:31:43.

says they could only increase it, not decrease it. A quick thought

:31:44.:31:53.

from you? Scots have been voting for your party for the best part of 80

:31:54.:31:58.

years. That is distinctly different. A lot of folks south of the border

:31:59.:32:02.

can recognise that. It's not distinctly different. If I could

:32:03.:32:08.

finish... Andrew asked me a question. That's not the

:32:09.:32:13.

distinction. The reason we're sitting here today is not just

:32:14.:32:17.

opinion polls. It's not all of the rest of that. The question is, don't

:32:18.:32:21.

you recognise that the Scots want a social democracy and the rest of

:32:22.:32:25.

Britain doesn't? I don't see the world in that way. I think what has

:32:26.:32:31.

happened, when people rejected Tory politics across the UK, in some

:32:32.:32:35.

parts of England, historically, people in the North voted Labour and

:32:36.:32:42.

people in Scotland did. The SNP afforded people to vote for an --

:32:43.:32:50.

afforded people an opportunity to vote for another party. I can't

:32:51.:32:54.

accept your construction that says the people in Newcastle and Glasgow

:32:55.:32:58.

and Cardiff don't believe in the same things and warrior at the same

:32:59.:33:02.

things. Wires Gordon Brown not involved in the no camping? He is.

:33:03.:33:09.

He does his own thing. That's not true. He was at a Better Together

:33:10.:33:14.

event. He was at one recently. We were having a discussion. He is a

:33:15.:33:23.

powerhouse of ideas. A powerhouse? Yes, in terms of this campaign, as

:33:24.:33:26.

has Alistair Darling been. Are they speaking yet? Of course they are.

:33:27.:33:31.

More importantly, ordinary people right across the country are saying

:33:32.:33:35.

they want to hear more about this debate. Baxter Jo in London.

:33:36.:33:40.

The Government's flagship welfare reform - the introduction

:33:41.:33:42.

of a new universal credit, which it's promised will ensure that

:33:43.:33:45.

people are always better off in work, has been a long time coming.

:33:46.:33:48.

The Prime Minister has made it clear he was happy to see

:33:49.:33:51.

the project phased in slowly, to ensure any problems are ironed

:33:52.:33:53.

But this week more questions have been raised about universal credit's

:33:54.:33:58.

long-term future - with confusion over whether or not the Treasury has

:33:59.:34:02.

Labour tabled what's known as an urgent question

:34:03.:34:07.

There has been so much beating about the bush that it feels as if this

:34:08.:34:21.

House has been misled by a Government engaged in a deliberate

:34:22.:34:26.

act of deception. The truth is that the department is relying, month by

:34:27.:34:32.

month, on hand-outs from the... The truth is, the department is relying,

:34:33.:34:36.

month by month, on hand-outs from the national food bank. How ironic!

:34:37.:34:43.

Mr Speaker, that has been the most pompous, ludicrous statement that I

:34:44.:34:49.

have ever heard. I know what the right honourable gentleman did. He

:34:50.:34:54.

wrote this down before he heard the answer. I made it quite clear - and

:34:55.:35:00.

I stand by what I said - the strategic outline business case

:35:01.:35:04.

plans for this Parliament have been approved.

:35:05.:35:07.

We asked the Department for Work and Pensions for a minister

:35:08.:35:10.

I'm joined now from Leeds by Shadow Work and

:35:11.:35:13.

Welcome to the programme. We heard in that film but Chris Bryant -- we

:35:14.:35:27.

heard that film from Chris Bryant. Well see right or wrong when he said

:35:28.:35:30.

the House had been misled by the Government? He is absolutely right

:35:31.:35:36.

because four months, Iain Duncan Smith has been saying that universal

:35:37.:35:40.

credit and on budget and it clearly isn't and it took a civil servant to

:35:41.:35:43.

servant to come to Parliament last week and expose the fact that the

:35:44.:35:46.

Treasury still hadn't signed the business case. Universal credit is

:35:47.:35:52.

this Government's flagship welfare reform, merging six benefits and tax

:35:53.:35:57.

credits into one. We've always supported this in principle but so

:35:58.:36:04.

far the Government has been spending taxpayers' money for a benefit that

:36:05.:36:08.

now just over 6000 people are claiming it should have been over a

:36:09.:36:12.

million by now. There are serious questions to answer, which is why

:36:13.:36:15.

we've said the Government should call in the National Audit Office to

:36:16.:36:18.

do independent review to find out whether we can achieve value for

:36:19.:36:21.

money from this project or whether it should be abandoned. But you seem

:36:22.:36:26.

to be conflating two issues. On one hand, you say you support the

:36:27.:36:30.

universal credit programme in principle, on the other you say it's

:36:31.:36:33.

cost a lot of money, and then you say they haven't been given the

:36:34.:36:37.

money by the Treasury. As far as I understand it, the money has been

:36:38.:36:41.

released but it has been released in a gradual way. Surely you would want

:36:42.:36:45.

the programme to be given a blank cheque? I would want it to be rolled

:36:46.:36:49.

out gradually, absolutely, but before you start spending money on

:36:50.:36:52.

something you have to do a business case to work out whether you think

:36:53.:36:57.

the project is value for money. That happens in businesses and I worked

:36:58.:37:00.

in the business sector before I was an MP. You wouldn't start spending

:37:01.:37:04.

money on a project before you had confidence you were going to get

:37:05.:37:07.

value for money. That's what hasn't happened in the case of universal

:37:08.:37:12.

credit. New business case was submitted - because the first one

:37:13.:37:17.

had to be rewritten - at the end of last year and we are now into July

:37:18.:37:20.

and it hasn't been signed off and yet taxpayers' money is still being

:37:21.:37:26.

spent on this project, even though we have no reassurance that it is a

:37:27.:37:29.

chilly going to deliver value for money. That is the issue and the

:37:30.:37:33.

Prime Minister and Iain Duncan Smith need to urgently get a grip of this

:37:34.:37:36.

flagship welfare reform. But they are releasing the money, albeit bit

:37:37.:37:42.

by bit, and you've made your point about the business case, but what

:37:43.:37:46.

real difference does it actually make to the emperor mentation of the

:37:47.:37:50.

programme? As it's being rolled out, it gets the money every three or

:37:51.:37:54.

months. It doesn't actually change anything materially to the

:37:55.:37:59.

programme, does it? First of all, you shouldn't be spending

:38:00.:38:03.

taxpayers' money, our money, unless we have that certainty that it's

:38:04.:38:07.

going to deliver value for money. The second problem is that this is

:38:08.:38:12.

being rolled out at such a gradual rate that so few people are on it,

:38:13.:38:17.

?600 million has been spent so far and it has rolled out to just 6000

:38:18.:38:23.

people. That is around ?1000 per person... Sorry, ?100,000 per person

:38:24.:38:29.

on universal credit. It is costing a huge amount of money without that

:38:30.:38:31.

certainty that it is going to deliver value. Yes, roll it out

:38:32.:38:36.

gradually, but let's make sure that we're getting value for money and

:38:37.:38:41.

not throwing good money after bad. Would you argue that some of the

:38:42.:38:45.

programmes rolled out under Labour the last government were successful,

:38:46.:38:49.

like the tax credit system or the NHS IT system? If you look at tax

:38:50.:38:57.

credits, it helped to lift more than 600,000... But was the roll-out a

:38:58.:39:00.

success? There were massive problems. This Government need to

:39:01.:39:05.

learn from mistakes of the past and I'm not saying the last Labour

:39:06.:39:10.

government got everything right, but what I am saying is that this

:39:11.:39:14.

Government should not be spending money on a project when there no

:39:15.:39:17.

reassurance as it is going to deliver value for money and they

:39:18.:39:22.

need to learn lessons from past IT problems. We have said right from

:39:23.:39:26.

the beginning when the Government embarked on this in 2010 that there

:39:27.:39:31.

were very serious risks and that they needed to understand the risks

:39:32.:39:35.

before they started spending money. This is a ?12.8 billion programme,

:39:36.:39:42.

the largest IT project this Government is pursuing, and we know

:39:43.:39:45.

now - because of what a civil servant told us, not because of

:39:46.:39:49.

ministers - that the business case has been signed off and that is a

:39:50.:39:54.

huge worry. Of course cynics would say that you agree with that in

:39:55.:39:57.

principle and are using this to score points against the Government.

:39:58.:40:03.

You have called for a three-month pause in the universal credit

:40:04.:40:07.

roll-out if you come to power. How will that help it? At the moment,

:40:08.:40:12.

the Government are spending millions of pounds every month on universal

:40:13.:40:17.

credit. How would your pores improve the roll-out? If we paused it and we

:40:18.:40:21.

stopped spending that money, we could bring in the National Audit

:40:22.:40:24.

Office and do a full review of universal credit. That would cause

:40:25.:40:29.

chaos. What is causing chaos is a system where money is being spent on

:40:30.:40:33.

a project and we don't know if it will deliver value for money. Let's

:40:34.:40:38.

pause the spending of money and bring in the National Audit Office

:40:39.:40:40.

to assess whether the project can succeed. And if it said no, you

:40:41.:40:47.

would stop the? If they say it can't succeed, I'm not going to throw good

:40:48.:40:51.

money after bad. What about all those people that would have been

:40:52.:40:55.

put on the universal credit? A complicated manoeuvre as it was, you

:40:56.:40:59.

would stop it dead in its tracks? And what would you do with all those

:41:00.:41:05.

people who were on universal credit? As you know, fewer than 6000 people

:41:06.:41:08.

are on universal credit but if universal credit didn't succeed, the

:41:09.:41:13.

existing benefits that are still being paid today... Universal credit

:41:14.:41:17.

is only being paid out at a very small number of job centres for a

:41:18.:41:22.

tiny subset of claimants, so single people on job-seeker's allowance

:41:23.:41:26.

without children who don't own their own homes. It's only going to a

:41:27.:41:30.

small number of people. You could move people back to the existing

:41:31.:41:34.

benefits. We want universal credit to succeed but we think it will only

:41:35.:41:37.

succeed if we have greater transparency, and that's why we

:41:38.:41:42.

would pause it and call in the National Audit Office. That's how

:41:43.:41:46.

you get value for money for taxpayers. Thank you and with that,

:41:47.:41:48.

time to go back to Andrew. The turnout is predicted

:41:49.:41:51.

to be very high. But have most already made up

:41:52.:41:53.

their minds? Will the don't knows break

:41:54.:41:56.

differently from those who What do voters feel

:41:57.:42:00.

about the campaign? We sent Adam out with

:42:01.:42:03.

his scientific mood box. I've come to the seaside town of

:42:04.:42:14.

Largs on the West Coast of Scotland but don't worry, I've remembered the

:42:15.:42:18.

mood box. We are going to ask people if they feel informed or not about

:42:19.:42:22.

the referendum, though I'm not sure it's going to work on here!

:42:23.:42:28.

Informed or not? Yes, I am informed. Informed enough? Informed enough, I

:42:29.:42:41.

should think. I think he needs to give us some more answers, Alex

:42:42.:42:44.

Salmond, but I think we know a lot about it. Thank you very much. Where

:42:45.:42:48.

have you got most of your information from? Some through the

:42:49.:42:52.

postal stop I had a phone call. Who phoned you up? The SNP. Do you feel

:42:53.:42:59.

informed? Not totally because I still don't think they're telling

:43:00.:43:02.

the whole truth about the financial side.

:43:03.:43:04.

still don't think they're telling the whole truth about the I don't

:43:05.:43:09.

really know. I don't really think about. You don't even know what you

:43:10.:43:14.

don't know about? You don't know what it is? The independence

:43:15.:43:17.

referendum? I haven't heard anything of it? Have you been living in a

:43:18.:43:27.

cave? I don't really know until we actually make the decision. What

:43:28.:43:31.

does the UK Treasury say the union is worth per person in Scotland? The

:43:32.:43:38.

UK Treasury says ?1400. He is well-informed! That is what they

:43:39.:43:42.

say. What does the yes campaign say in return? I think they were trying

:43:43.:43:50.

to bump it up a bit. There is a Yes Scotland shop over there. I wonder

:43:51.:43:53.

if we will see any campaigners come to vote. Have you been doing a

:43:54.:44:00.

referendum at school? Yes. What have you learned? It's complicated. That

:44:01.:44:08.

is a very good summary! What is the most unbelievable thing you've

:44:09.:44:11.

heard? We can carry on with the pound. They save that we are going

:44:12.:44:16.

to have it on all the English guys are turning round and saying we're

:44:17.:44:20.

not, so what's it going to be? It's started raining. I know the perfect

:44:21.:44:25.

place to take cover, a famous Largs landmark.

:44:26.:44:30.

Do you feel informed and simultaneously not informed enough?

:44:31.:44:41.

Exactly. Informed. You are an expert? Oh, definitely. People are

:44:42.:44:46.

getting so overloaded, they're getting fed up with it. Everyone has

:44:47.:44:52.

their own opinion so I'm just waiting. I might say that's a little

:44:53.:44:56.

bit lazy. It's lazy but also... waiting. I might say that's a little

:44:57.:45:03.

Well, yeah, it's lazy. It's stopped raining now. Here comes the ferry

:45:04.:45:13.

from the island so loads of people should be about to get off. Do you

:45:14.:45:19.

feel informed about the referendum? Have you got enough information? No.

:45:20.:45:23.

What would you like to know? Everything. What is the crucial

:45:24.:45:26.

piece of information you'd like to know? How it's going to affect me

:45:27.:45:32.

and my grandchildren and the next one is coming up.

:45:33.:45:36.

About 50% of people say they don't feel very

:45:37.:45:40.

well informed about the referendum. No, I have left it behind!

:45:41.:45:42.

Bye! With us now is Blair Jenkins who

:45:43.:45:56.

leads the Yes Campaign. Why, according to the polls, our

:45:57.:46:08.

young Scots rejecting your independence message? That is not

:46:09.:46:13.

what the polls show. Normally we do well. It is 2-1. Not samples. --

:46:14.:46:28.

some polls. You have lost in every school in the country. That is

:46:29.:46:33.

untrue. I have taken part in some personally. You have lost the Bates.

:46:34.:46:40.

The average is that young Scots are to do one against independence. Why?

:46:41.:46:45.

I find that young Scots are very open to this debate. People are

:46:46.:46:50.

capable of changing their minds and move around perhaps more than the

:46:51.:46:56.

older part of the population. I am confident that young Scots will vote

:46:57.:47:00.

yes. Why are women rejecting the arguments for independence? I think

:47:01.:47:05.

women are going to make their minds up later than men, that may a

:47:06.:47:13.

sweeping statement. It is funny, I was in a public debate with someone

:47:14.:47:26.

who said that he thought 70% of the population were up for grabs, people

:47:27.:47:29.

who might change their minds -- Levantine percent. You would not

:47:30.:47:41.

push the parallel too much. It is the case that the gender gap for

:47:42.:47:44.

people who are going to vote SNP closed by polling day. It is

:47:45.:47:49.

worrying the Labour Party. You can see that. Maybe one of the reasons

:47:50.:47:55.

is uncertainty or risk because you say an independent Scotland should

:47:56.:47:58.

keep the pound, still have monetary union with the UK, continue seamless

:47:59.:48:04.

membership of the EU, membership of NATO, these are things Scotland has

:48:05.:48:08.

at the moment as part of the UK and although that is what you want, you

:48:09.:48:11.

cannot guarantee a single one of those things. You're right, and a

:48:12.:48:17.

couple of those at least it is not possible to be absolutely certain

:48:18.:48:20.

but the reason is evident and I think people are switching on to

:48:21.:48:24.

this, the reason for some of the uncertainty for things like the

:48:25.:48:28.

precise method by which we continue in EU membership is because the

:48:29.:48:31.

British government is the only one that can get that clarified at EU

:48:32.:48:36.

level and will not do it. You may say this is perfectly legitimate, we

:48:37.:48:40.

are up against the campaign whose main strategy is uncertainty and to

:48:41.:48:43.

maintain as much uncertainty as possible. As you sit here today,

:48:44.:48:52.

there's not one of these you can guarantee an independent Scotland

:48:53.:48:56.

would have. What we can guarantee is that an independent Scotland will

:48:57.:49:01.

get government it elects. I understand that. You cannot

:49:02.:49:06.

guarantee any of these things. I accept entirely for instance that

:49:07.:49:10.

the currency union is one. People are going to have to make up their

:49:11.:49:14.

minds who they trust. From every single poll that has been done

:49:15.:49:17.

people of Scotland trust the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish

:49:18.:49:20.

Government more than they trust the Westminster government. Let us take

:49:21.:49:27.

Scotland's membership of the EU. It is the Scottish Government's

:49:28.:49:32.

intention that it would do these negotiations, it says it would have

:49:33.:49:38.

to renegotiate while the negotiations with London are going

:49:39.:49:42.

on. EU membership could not be taken for granted. That is what the

:49:43.:49:49.

commission president said. He has said it could be very difficult.

:49:50.:49:57.

They -- he was dismissed but the new president has said that he agrees

:49:58.:50:00.

with him. Are you going to dismiss him? What he has been trying to do

:50:01.:50:07.

this week in various meetings is to say as little as possible about the

:50:08.:50:11.

Scottish referendum. He has said it is a decision for the people of

:50:12.:50:14.

Scotland that he and their EU will respect the outcome. You know what

:50:15.:50:20.

else he said? He has said many things. When asked if he agreed did

:50:21.:50:30.

not agree, with the President of the commission, he said, they were

:50:31.:50:37.

perfectly clear, I do not have to change a word as far as they --

:50:38.:50:44.

their declarations are concerned. Earlier this year when that was said

:50:45.:50:53.

we had people distancing themselves from his remarks. The reality of

:50:54.:51:00.

this is that there is will not be a legalistic decision taken by civil

:51:01.:51:03.

servants in the commission. It is a political decision which will be

:51:04.:51:08.

reached in the future of the EU. Are you dismissing what he said? I think

:51:09.:51:14.

he was very diplomatic. He agrees with his predecessor. I think it is

:51:15.:51:20.

incredible. It is incredible to think that the Beeb all Scotland

:51:21.:51:24.

exercise their right of self-determination, as I believe

:51:25.:51:28.

they well, that this will somehow lead to hostility, exclusion. That

:51:29.:51:34.

is not the issue. The issue is how long it may take. How -- what you

:51:35.:51:39.

may have to renegotiate and the different terms you may get. Getting

:51:40.:51:48.

a share of the British rebate. All the Scottish Government's

:51:49.:51:50.

calculations depend on oil revenues making up for the loss of public

:51:51.:51:53.

spending money that currently comes from the London Treasury. Every

:51:54.:51:58.

calculation the Scottish Government has made has overestimated oil

:51:59.:52:05.

revenues. Why should we trust you? Lots of people have it on different

:52:06.:52:10.

future projections. I am not talking about future projections. I am

:52:11.:52:14.

talking about projections the Scottish Government made in

:52:15.:52:17.

2010-2011 up until now the real malady of the revenues they got is a

:52:18.:52:23.

lot less -- reality. There were particular reasons. There are always

:52:24.:52:30.

reasons. That is right. Why should we trust you? The future off oil,

:52:31.:52:36.

one cannot be certain about the price, but one can be certain about

:52:37.:52:41.

the volume of oil that remains and the companies operating there are

:52:42.:52:45.

making regular of investment. There is every reason to believe that

:52:46.:52:48.

North Sea oil, which is not the basis of the argument for Scottish

:52:49.:52:58.

and -- Scottish independence, is very important. Higher than the UK

:52:59.:53:06.

average, the government is saying, we will get the oil revenues which

:53:07.:53:11.

currently go to London, we will be able to afford it, but if you're

:53:12.:53:16.

projections, you were out by almost ?4 billion... Not me personally. Not

:53:17.:53:24.

you personally. If you are owed by that much you cannot guarantee that

:53:25.:53:27.

these revenues will pay for your public spending. There were

:53:28.:53:33.

particular circumstances where at the companies were unable to take

:53:34.:53:36.

advantage of the investment they had made is to reduce tax liability so

:53:37.:53:40.

that resulted in the loss of revenue. You knew that when you made

:53:41.:53:45.

the projections. I did not make the projections. There are highly

:53:46.:53:49.

credible people in the industry themselves to have much more

:53:50.:53:52.

optimistic projections than the UK Government. A forecast today on the

:53:53.:54:01.

current lines, you would probably be denied the existence by the time we

:54:02.:54:02.

get to the temper -- September 2018. Now, if you have vote on Scottish

:54:03.:54:10.

independence and you're still undecided,

:54:11.:54:12.

despite the best efforts of any of Our Giles has been

:54:13.:54:15.

following the campaign. You know, for some, because, let's

:54:16.:54:18.

face it, not everybody is fussed, the dream of Scottish independence

:54:19.:54:21.

or the concept of Britain as The tartan glitterati have not been

:54:22.:54:23.

shy of raising their proverbial kilts and showing us what they

:54:24.:54:30.

really think on the big question. Brian Cox, the gritty Hannibal

:54:31.:54:34.

actor, not the boyish physicist, You are in favour of Scottish

:54:35.:54:40.

independence. As for coming together,

:54:41.:54:45.

Alan is not so sure. After independence,

:54:46.:54:56.

and I am a supporter and I hope it We will still be a part

:54:57.:55:01.

of the British Isles. However, Mike Myers is

:55:02.:55:05.

so ogre the idea of independence. Shrek wants what the will

:55:06.:55:09.

of the Scottish people want. That is interesting, and conclusive,

:55:10.:55:15.

coming from a man who is Canadian Captain Jack Harkness from

:55:16.:55:29.

Doctor Who and Torchwood. Let's stand together and let us not,

:55:30.:55:34.

like snarling currs, Apparently that meant he is

:55:35.:55:44.

for unionism. Harry Potter author JK Rolling

:55:45.:55:50.

conjured up a ?1 million donation to And brought herself a bout

:55:51.:55:57.

of online abuse. We are in the middle

:55:58.:56:02.

of a huge terrible terrifying I think now is the time

:56:03.:56:09.

for stability. That is a magic that is not working

:56:10.:56:16.

on Irvine Welsh, who has been spotted boarding a train leaving

:56:17.:56:19.

the British union station. That sense of Britishness,

:56:20.:56:23.

I do not think it is served Frankie Boyle agrees,

:56:24.:56:26.

funnily enough, or unfunnily I've kind of romanticised about

:56:27.:56:31.

Scotland being this foreign country. Our culture is actually very vibrant

:56:32.:56:40.

and something we should try to Thinking of culture, there is

:56:41.:56:43.

even musicians in each camp. The first pop stars with thick

:56:44.:56:48.

specks and huge mouths when they We are voting yes

:56:49.:56:54.

for an independent Scotland because we believe we should take

:56:55.:56:59.

responsibility for our own lives. We are voting yes for an independent

:57:00.:57:02.

Scotland because we want to see You will recognise him

:57:03.:57:05.

at these awards coming up. He is the one who is not there and

:57:06.:57:14.

is being represented by Kate Moss. The big issue is not

:57:15.:57:18.

so much will they won't they, He told a magazine he absolutely

:57:19.:57:27.

supported David Bowie's viewpoint, especially if Miss Piggy could

:57:28.:57:35.

become the Queen of Scotland. Are these celebrities making any

:57:36.:57:54.

difference? It is astonishing that there is even 40% still considering

:57:55.:57:59.

voting yes, but when David Bowie came out with that we had the

:58:00.:58:03.

greatest fun. Everybody was looking at the titles. We had the man who

:58:04.:58:12.

fell to Perth. Let us hope not. Why not? The idea that someone's vote on

:58:13.:58:19.

something of this importance should be influenced by what some two bit

:58:20.:58:26.

actor, pop star or other reality TV consistent as disease strikes me as

:58:27.:58:27.

being beyond depressing. Thanks to our guests,

:58:28.:58:35.

especially Lesley and Alex. We'll be back in this spot

:58:36.:58:38.

in September, when we'll be just In the meantime,

:58:39.:58:41.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be

:58:42.:58:44.

speaking to Scotland's Deputy First DRUMBEATS CONTINUE

:58:45.:58:47.

WITH SWELLING, DRAMATIC MUSIC

:58:48.:59:15.

Andrew Neil is in Edinburgh for a special edition focusing on the upcoming Scottish independence referendum.

Jo Coburn is in Westminster with all the other political news, including a look at the row over universal credit.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS