10/07/2014 Daily Politics


10/07/2014

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. He discusses the public sector strike with TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady.


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Transcript


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David Cameron announces emergency legislation to allow

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the security services to access our phone, email and internet records.

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We'll hear why from a Home Office minister.

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And a Labour MP who says it's a back-room stitch-up.

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Around one million public sector workers go out

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The Conservatives say they'll make it tougher to call a strike

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We have even seen who you have a cigarette.

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We've got the latest on Mr Juncker's campaign to lead the next European

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Commission as the Luxembourger gets a grilling from UKIP.

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And after another World Cup washout, we'll debate whether the UK's four

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national football teams should play together as one combined team.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration director of

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You may remember him from the stand-off last year at

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the Grangemouth petrochemicals plant in Scotland when the company's

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management closed the plant and locked out workers in a dispute

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We'll talk about today's public sector strikes in a moment.

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First, though, let's start with the breaking news this morning that

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the Government is rushing through emergency legislation which will

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ensure that the police and security services can access people's phone,

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The law will replace previous data rules, which were struck down by the

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European Court of Justice earlier this year because they were ruled to

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This is how the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister explained

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the reasons behind the new law in a press conference this morning.

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We face real and credible threats to our security from serious organised

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crime, from the activity of paedophiles, from the collapse

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of Syria, the growth of Isis in Iraq and Al-Shabab in East Africa.

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I am simply not prepared to be a Prime Minister who has to address

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people after a terrorist incident and explain I

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As a Liberal Democrat I believe successive governments have

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neglected civil liberties as they claim to pursue greater security but

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I will not stand idly by when there is a real risk we will suddenly be

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deprived of the legitimate means by which we keep people safe.

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Liberty and security must go hand-in-hand.

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We can't enjoy our freedom if we are unable to keep ourselves safe.

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Let's talk now to Nick Robinson, who's in Central Lobby just outside

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David Davis, prominent Tory MP, has just asked, why is this having to be

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rushed? Do we have an answer? The judgement from the European Court

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came the Magna month ago. The answer appears to be ministers looked to

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doing it in other ways, whether it was possible to change regulations,

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attack on a new clause to an existing piece of legislation and it

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took them a while to come to the view that it's needed primary

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legislation, watching a Bill through the House of Commons that the Lords

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in the space of a week. There have been other MPs who have criticised

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the rush. The cover of the Prime Minister has easy has the Deputy

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Prime Minister and the Labour Party. Is it technical or can you explain

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to us how what they are doing now, this legislation they are rushing

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through, will make it compliant with European law to do what they had

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already been doing and it was ruled they should not have been doing? I

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can. I knew you could. The surprising thing was that there was

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no British law on this. The security services and the police, the

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National Crime Agency, were able to find out who you spoke to on your

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phone and who you email and when as a result of a European directive. It

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was the European directive that has been struck down in the European

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Court of Justice. Other countries are going to have to make their own

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arrangements to deal with that. It may be that the EU comes up with a

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new directive which is compliant. This is the first time there will be

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a specific piece on British law to deal with this particular problem.

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If what we were doing did not comply according to the court, is there not

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a possibility that what we are about to do could end up in front of the

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European court? You are stretching my legal knowledge but there has to

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be a possibility and a possibility that this sort of thing goes before

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the European Court of Human Rights because the groans on which that

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court are judged against our the words sufficient protection. That is

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what is interesting about the behind-the-scenes deal that has been

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done between Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives on

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this issue. Labour and the Liberal Democrats have been pushing for

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greater safeguards. Some people say it is a dramatic step forward,

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others that it is cosmetic, but there will be an annual review and a

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major review including a controversial Bill known as the

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regulatory investigatory Powers act which allows your local council to

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spy on you if it wants to. There is going to be an oversight board to

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check issues of civil liberties when these laws are introduced so in

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theory what you are getting is no law that does all things and new

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safeguards. -- new law. Critics say how can we be sure this is true when

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there is only a week to look at this and this is not long enough? I hope

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they do not have our emails. I've been joined by the

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Liberal Democrat Home Office Welcome back. Why is this being

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rushed? Because there has been a court judgement and there is some

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legal uncertainty and we have to make sure that those who are part of

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the process, including internet service providers, have that. Have

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you taken a long while to be convinced? I have been involved in

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the discussion for some time. If the delay because the Lib Dems took

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convincing? We have to make sure that it is legally sound and we are

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convinced. We have been negotiating successfully. You may be right or

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wrong but you are one of the reasons for the delay and the rush. It is

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proper that those who are involved in these matters make sure that the

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law is sound and that is what we have done. That is correct. If you

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like, along with everybody else who has been involved. I thought you

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were against this. This is not the Communications Data Bill, this is

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the reinstatement of existing powers which have been questioned as a

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result of a European judgement. This is area and reduction of what is

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already there plus new safeguards. You tell us that but Nick Clegg also

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said, we will be the first government to increase transparency.

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There has been no transparency. This has been done behind closed doors.

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Discussions about the nuances have been behind closed doors. No public

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debate. The Bill has been published. It is being rushed through next

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week. You have not allowed time for public debate. It has been going on

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for several years. Ever since the revelations in the guardian. We are

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glad that we have the opportunity for a wider debate and that is why

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we have insisted on a clause to make sure that we have a debate and no

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government can run away from this. You have had all of your

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conversations behind closed doors that we have not known they have

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been going on. This is a big issue, something the government has been

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doing has been ruled illegal and you are now going to push this through

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in the dying days of Parliament as it goes into the summer. We are

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reinstating the position that existed before the European Court of

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it into uncertainty. It is European legislation. We are ensuring that

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the security services have the necessary information to deal with

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exploitation. We have set a date by which this has to be consigned to

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the dustbin and that will force the next government to have these

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matters properly considered and there will be a debate between now

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and December 2016. What is the biggest safeguard that this will not

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be abused? Annual transparency reports, a board, a reduction in the

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number of bodies, councils, who can get access. The Washington Post

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published a report that the NSA and America had managed to collect what

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they almost cold was collateral information in the process of

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listening to the bad guys, they pick up a tonne of information from

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people who are not bad guys and they have all of these emails and voice

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mail is and mobile phone records sitting on their computers, they

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know about people 's affairs, private lives, why do we know that

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is not that? It would be a waste of people's time to be looking at

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people who are not threats. Where is the safeguard? The safeguard those

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we have a proper debate starting. We have not, you are rushing it

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through. We have, in 2016. Between now and 2016 we can have the debate

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and those questions can be addressed, but we have to get the

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balance right between looking after the country and making sure we have

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civil liberty safeguards. Have you gone native? I am busy championing

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the safeguards. I am keen to make sure that those guys who are trading

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in child sexual images are dealt with. Everybody does. That is key to

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making sure we have the information. What is your view? There is a

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consensus that says if there is data out there that is being used to do

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harm to society we have to be monitoring it and managing it and

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there would be a backlash if the government failed to do that. Your

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point about the collateral is the issue, we must avoid the collateral

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of innocent people's data being used or abused and for me the big concern

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is making sure we think about it properly. Rushed legislation gives

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me concern because we have seen legislation rushed and we have to

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spend a lot of time unravelling problems. That is why we have a

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sunset clause and a board to deal with that very important point. Good

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to see you. Let's talk

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about today's other big news, the mass public sector strike that's

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taking place across the country. Across the country, public sector

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unions, including Unison, Unite and the NUT, are going on strike to

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protest over pay, pensions and cuts. More than

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a million public sector workers are expected to be taking part

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including teachers, council staff, The biggest issue

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in the dispute is pay. Public sector salaries were

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frozen in 2010 and since 2012 pay Unison general secretary

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Dave Prentis claims public sector workers are now ?4,000 a year worse

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off than they were in 2010. The Conservatives have condemned

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the strikes, claiming the majority Cabinet Office Minister Frances

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Maude said the party is looking to change the law by introducing a

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minimum turn-out for ballots, and a limit on the length of time between

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the ballot and actually going on the strike, to make unions to get

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a fresh mandate for any new action. With us now is the General Secretary

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of the TUC, Frances O'Grady. We had hoped to be joined by a

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Conservative MP but we are waiting for him. Maybe he cannot get in!

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What is this strike going to achieve? It is for one day. It is a

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political strike to draw attention, isn't it? This is local government

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workers, school meals workers, half a million or in less than the

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minimum wage saying that they have had four years of real pay cuts,

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prices keep rising, they cannot afford to carry on in the government

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has announced there will be four more years or real pay cuts. There

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is upset and anger amongst ordinary public sector workers that

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politicians do not seem to understand how tough it is. As you

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describe it, you said you would not be surprised that there is anger but

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if that is the case why did so few members vote?

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if that is the case why did so few We had a high turnout from

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firefighters stop what they are a small union. They always turn out.

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If it is hurting so much, how come or did not vote to come out on

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strike? One problem is that we have this 20th-century method of

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balloting, postal ballots. If that had been imposed on the general

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election, we would see turnout go down significantly. In fact, postal

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ballots tends to raise those balloted. We need to improve

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participation but first, we should talk about not just the symptoms but

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the causes of the reason why people are out on strike. We cannot dismiss

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dedicated firefighters worried about lining up ladders into burning

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buildings, losing half of their pension. -- climbing up ladders. As

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I understand, their biggest beef is pensions. There is a whole mixture

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of different reasons why people are marching today, if they are marching

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at all. Pay, pensions and real concerns about the future of our

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public services. We talked on Sunday, on the Sunday politics. We

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did. On general, public sector workers are still better paid on

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average than private sector, I do not want to go over that again, you

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had different reasons. We think there has been a pay freeze in the

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public sector but actually when you look at earnings, there has not been

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a pay freeze. Median earnings in the public sector rose by 2.6% this

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year. Are you making the point about pay progression? The freeze does not

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cover lots of things, does it. The key issue, workers across both the

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public and private sector, their earnings are coming in below

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inflation. The median earning, ?24,000, 2%, 2.6% up on the previous

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year. It is not a princely sum, it's just about keeps pace with inflation

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now, but it is not quite the Draconian pay freeze that you would

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have us believe. You will have seen from the TUC report that workers on

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average across the public services have lost over ?2000 a year. It is

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more than ?40 a week. When you are on a modest income, I can tell

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you... I was talking to workers today, cleaners getting up at 4am,

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doing one job, coming to the depot to do a second job, going on to do a

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third, and still not managing the living wage. It has got to change,

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the government has got to listen. Hold that thought, before I go to

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Dominic, Tom Crotty, you have had your run-in with the unions, what is

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your attitude? It is worth saying, we had a run-in with a union on a

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specific site. Generally we have very good relations on 4950 sites

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around the world. -- 49 out of 50 sites. But the private sector has

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made a lot more change to terms and conditions, particularly pensions,

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than has been achieved in the public sector, that disparity is

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significant. I think that the bigger issue is probably the one around the

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very low turnout, as you have highlighted in some of the ballots.

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Dominic, I am glad you made it, good of you to come off the picket line

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and join us on the daily politics! If you freeze pay for a long time as

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this government has, and we are talking about people who by and

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large are not paid huge salaries at all. It's not surprising they will

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take to the streets in a peaceful way. It is perfectly legitimate to

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protest, and legitimate to have a debate about economic policy but the

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fact of the matter, the restraint on public sector spending which we have

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had to introduce is part of a much wider economic policy of this

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elected government. What is quite wrong is for the unions, on

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incredibly low turnout, some with as little as 8% of support from their

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own membership, like Unison, to be able to inflict so much damage,

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hundreds of millions of pounds, on the economy in one day, according to

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the Treasury and the FSP, not to mention widespread disruption to

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families with kids in schools and commuters. With such low support

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from their own members. Why is it right for them to wield such a

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powerful strike weapon without some safeguards for the hard-working

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majority? What you think the safeguard should be when it comes to

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ballot, what is the minimum turnout? I think it should be a very simple

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rule which says that if a union is unable to persuade majority of his

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own members to strike, it should not be able to inflict that on the wider

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public. It should not be about turnout, that was proposed by Boris

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Johnson. Clarifying, it is not the majority of those who vote, it

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should be a majority of the total membership eligible to vote? A

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majority of the balloted membership. I'm delighted to debate

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this with Dominik, because Dominik wrote a pamphlet suggesting that

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British workers were among the worst idlers in the world. The worst

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idlers! Dominik would need to apply that testing himself, he got a good

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turnout and a good vote at the general election but he did not meet

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the 50% threshold that he has just advocated in the ten minute rule

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Bill. 1-run all for union members, one role for members of Parliament.

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The cry of double standards from unions is chaff, you are not

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comparing like-for-like, looking at a general election or a by-election,

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everyone affected by that wrote gets to vote. -- one raw for union

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members, one rule for members of Parliament. Sometimes very small

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menorah to support from membership. -- one rule. Actually, what she

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would want is referendum for strikes, but nobody is suggesting

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that and it we are talking about a safeguard to protect the majority

:21:49.:21:52.

from the militant menorah T. -- sometimes a very small menorah team

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support from membership. -- minority. -- minority. Dominik has

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judged the question -- dodged the question... Perhaps he did not dodge

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it, perhaps you are just unconvinced. We ballot all he is

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saying that if it is a threshold, then we have got to do better than

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politicians. His argument is... By going on strike on public services,

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you affect everybody. A lot of people feel that the Conservative

:22:32.:22:35.

Party, which was elected with... Is in power on the basis of 23% of

:22:36.:22:39.

everybody who was entitled to vote in the general election, a lot of

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people feel that the Conservative Party have inflicted a lot of

:22:44.:22:50.

damage. Not everyone gets to vote -- not everyone who is affected gets to

:22:51.:22:56.

vote when you decide to strike. Nile Ferguson said that Europeans are

:22:57.:22:58.

among the worst idlers in the world, but I did make the point in Britain

:22:59.:23:03.

that we have got an increasingly small proportion of people peddling

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harder and harder to sustain the economy. -- peddling. But also

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public services. That is socially unfair and unsustainable economic

:23:13.:23:16.

rape. We have the highest employment rate since 1973, 73% of the eligible

:23:17.:23:24.

labour force is employment. Not just the eligible labour force but look

:23:25.:23:27.

at those staying in higher education, compared to life

:23:28.:23:29.

expectancy we are retiring earlier and earlier and also look at average

:23:30.:23:34.

working hours, which have declined substantially since the war. Not

:23:35.:23:40.

among the people I know! Tom Crotty, you have said that you would like to

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see somebody like Dominik -- you have said that you would like to see

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something like what is being suggested by Dominic. It would be

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perfectly reasonable to expect that more than 50% of the balloted union

:23:55.:23:59.

members vote in favour of a strike. That is what he said... In your

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case, the real issue here was not the strike of the workers, it was

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the strike of the employer, it was the employer who locked the workers

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out and threatened to close the plant down, where do ordinary people

:24:12.:24:17.

get a vote there? Is that true? It is not true. We should be talking

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about how we get the economy growing again, what we can do for

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manufacturing. I agree with the second part of that dialogue but

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that is not the question I was asked, I was asked about the issue

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at Grangemouth, and at Grangemouth this issue would not have been an

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issue, we had more than 50% of the elected members voted, but it is a

:24:43.:24:47.

point of principle that you should have that, and the issue that

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compares this to a general election does not work for me, in a general

:24:51.:24:54.

election we are not being asked for a yes/no decision. This is a very

:24:55.:25:03.

clear yes/no decision. We have a system where we assume that a

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non-voted in favour of a strike, I think that you should assume that a

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non-voted against the strike. Dominik, we will let you go. Before

:25:13.:25:16.

you go, do you think you get a better deal on public sector pay out

:25:17.:25:25.

of labour? I certainly think that Labour support for the living wage

:25:26.:25:28.

would see that every public sector worker would get a better deal. The

:25:29.:25:34.

important thing here is about talking, unions are all about

:25:35.:25:37.

negotiation, strikes in this country are rare, what we do is negotiate

:25:38.:25:42.

and I would hope that we would have a government in power that would

:25:43.:25:44.

talk. You may not, Labour have said they support these measures. Labour,

:25:45.:25:51.

I hope, would get around the negotiating table and try to resolve

:25:52.:25:54.

problems when we face them, that is the difference, that is what we have

:25:55.:25:59.

got to do. That is the future. Banks. -- thank you.

:26:00.:26:08.

After several years of no or anaemic growth in the British economy,

:26:09.:26:10.

this year our economic fortunes have been looking up with growth now

:26:11.:26:13.

But despite this boost, the feel-good factor hasn't

:26:14.:26:17.

Here's a green-fingered Giles to explain.

:26:18.:26:29.

Do not adjust your set, this is still the daily politics, not

:26:30.:26:35.

gardeners world, but just as garden plants depend on growth to survive

:26:36.:26:39.

and flourish, so does the economy. Recent statistics show that these

:26:40.:26:43.

long for green shoots of recovery are slowly emerging. Are they

:26:44.:26:49.

flowering everywhere? You see, the point about the UK economy and the

:26:50.:26:54.

plant, is that once they experience growth, across-the-board, it is not

:26:55.:27:01.

uniform, everything in the economy is built up around London and the

:27:02.:27:07.

south-east, that is growing nicely. Other areas, pockets of the

:27:08.:27:10.

Midlands, parts of the urban centres in the North are doing OK, but

:27:11.:27:15.

Wales, the south-west, and up into the North, it is not so great and

:27:16.:27:19.

that is part of the problem. What appears to be happening, we do not

:27:20.:27:23.

write now have the numbers to show this but we will eventually, this is

:27:24.:27:28.

primarily a southeastern pick-up, at least initially, London and the

:27:29.:27:31.

south-east are doing very well, places further north, the north-east

:27:32.:27:36.

not doing quite so well. However, it is likely that over time we are

:27:37.:27:39.

going to see a ripple out effect from the south-east region to region

:27:40.:27:43.

further north, but it is going to take time before people up there get

:27:44.:27:50.

the benefit of the feel-good factor. Government can do some things to

:27:51.:27:52.

feed the recovery and they will tell you that their plan is to do just

:27:53.:27:56.

that but there is many other drivers to this that the government finds

:27:57.:28:00.

harder to control. Bank lending to small business, inward investment,

:28:01.:28:04.

exports and foreign investment are other key drivers. Of course it is

:28:05.:28:09.

only where you get growth that you find job creation. If you only have

:28:10.:28:12.

recovery in one part of the economy, one part of the country, then you

:28:13.:28:18.

have two problems: If everything is happening in the south, then that

:28:19.:28:22.

will overheat. Number two, the people in the Midlands and the North

:28:23.:28:25.

will be wondering, what is the big gap between the political rhetoric

:28:26.:28:28.

and what is happening on the ground, they will not give the government

:28:29.:28:35.

any credit. If the overall spread of growth outside of London and the

:28:36.:28:38.

south-east in the urban centres of the North is slow, then the

:28:39.:28:41.

political dilemma is not only do too many people miss out for the time

:28:42.:28:45.

being on the benefits of growth and job creation but any electoral

:28:46.:28:50.

benefit for government about their nurturing a recovery may end up in

:28:51.:28:56.

the bin. If you are up in Newcastle and reading newspapers and seeing

:28:57.:28:58.

stories telling you that house prices are rising, ten, 20%, you are

:28:59.:29:04.

not seeing that up there. People are saying, "my wealth is not going up

:29:05.:29:09.

that anything like the same pace, I do not feel the benefit" and frankly

:29:10.:29:13.

I think they will not over the next 12 months. The time horizon is too

:29:14.:29:18.

short. This at the moment is a recovery based on consumer spending

:29:19.:29:24.

and the housing market. There is no prizes for guessing where that is

:29:25.:29:28.

greatest. No wonder there is a drive for exports and foreign investment.

:29:29.:29:32.

Whether what is being done is enough to bring the UK into bloom

:29:33.:29:36.

everywhere is uncertain. What we do know is that nobody wants the

:29:37.:29:38.

economy heading back to the compost heap.

:29:39.:29:41.

He's good with the gardening metaphors! In geographic terms, is

:29:42.:29:50.

this recovery unbalanced? Yes, but geography is simplistic, it is a

:29:51.:29:54.

strong recovery in London and the south-east, driven by the strong

:29:55.:29:58.

service sector, by housing valuations growing. We are seen

:29:59.:30:03.

parts of the North, where there is still good growth, for the same

:30:04.:30:07.

reasons. There are very large tracts of what I call the industrial

:30:08.:30:12.

heartland of the UK, which depend historically on manufacturing, we

:30:13.:30:16.

are not seeing growth there. That is my concern, we are not doing

:30:17.:30:17.

are not seeing growth there. That is my concern, enough yet to really

:30:18.:30:21.

fire up UK manufacturing industry. What should be done? A whole host of

:30:22.:30:27.

things, it is a broken record for me but energy

:30:28.:30:32.

-- it is a broken record for me but energy policy is a big thing.

:30:33.:30:48.

solution to many of these issues. We are building large ships to bring in

:30:49.:30:56.

the US gas our operations. That is what we are doing. It is because it

:30:57.:31:00.

is the only way to be competitive with the rest of the world. We

:31:01.:31:04.

should not need to be spending that money moving that gas when we are

:31:05.:31:08.

potentially sitting on that and that value could be going to the UK

:31:09.:31:12.

Exchequer. There are issues like that that would make a huge

:31:13.:31:17.

difference. You're one of the biggest industrial complexes in

:31:18.:31:19.

Scotland. If the recovery under way there? It will be because of what we

:31:20.:31:27.

are doing. Because we are going to address that issue of energy

:31:28.:31:30.

competitiveness. We have had to solve that problem ourselves by

:31:31.:31:35.

bringing gas in from America. Does the prospect of Scottish

:31:36.:31:37.

independence have a bearing on your business? No. We are pretty neutral.

:31:38.:31:44.

We operate in big economies and small. We operate in Germany with 70

:31:45.:31:49.

million people and in Norway with 4 million people. It is not an issue

:31:50.:31:54.

about whether an independent Scotland is viable. We were dumb at

:31:55.:32:00.

work with what we are given. You take now stands? Absolutely not. It

:32:01.:32:05.

is up to the people of Scotland. He smokes, he drinks,

:32:06.:32:14.

just what else Jean Claude Juncker Well, they met in Brussels last

:32:15.:32:16.

night when Mr Juncker was quizzed by Mr Farage's Europe of Freedom

:32:17.:32:20.

and Direct Democracy group. That's

:32:21.:32:23.

the European parliamentary group of You are a smoker and I read you

:32:24.:32:24.

drink endless cups of black coffee. I do not believe in the

:32:25.:32:38.

United States of Europe. Given you're planning to introduce

:32:39.:32:46.

the European Union education in our schools, will you be offering David

:32:47.:32:51.

Cameron a course in EU negotiation It would depend

:32:52.:32:54.

on the price he would offer me. Let's talk now to our Europe Editor,

:32:55.:33:11.

Gavin Hewitt, Is Mr Juncker doing the rounds and

:33:12.:33:27.

is it a formality because he is a shoe in to be the commission

:33:28.:33:33.

president? He is a shoe in. He is doing the rounds and with UKIP's

:33:34.:33:40.

group it was knock-about stuff. He tried to express some humour and

:33:41.:33:43.

when he was talking to the conservative group the day before,

:33:44.:33:48.

very much sending out this message, he wants a fair deal for Britain, he

:33:49.:33:53.

would not block Britain trying to repatriate some powers. On the big

:33:54.:33:58.

marker he put down was he was not in for undertaking the treaties and

:33:59.:34:06.

changing those. He made it clear that would not happen. This is

:34:07.:34:10.

Jean-Claude Juncker putting himself out there and trying to convince the

:34:11.:34:18.

UK he is not a bogeyman. When will we get to his portfolio of his

:34:19.:34:23.

fellow commissioners and where are on where the British are going to

:34:24.:34:29.

fit into this? We may get the names or most of the names as early as

:34:30.:34:34.

next week. I understand at least six countries have put forward their

:34:35.:34:41.

names. He has already indicated one portfolio, the crucial economic and

:34:42.:34:44.

monetary affairs, is going to go to a social Democrat. Trying to balance

:34:45.:34:50.

the political groupings. The expectation is that that would go to

:34:51.:34:57.

a candidate from France. Other countries are being encouraged to

:34:58.:35:01.

put forward those names and Jean-Claude Juncker said he is

:35:02.:35:05.

looking to see more women's names, he wants to increase the number of

:35:06.:35:11.

female commissioners. The big fight for Britain is, will it get one of

:35:12.:35:16.

the key economic portfolios? Trade, energy or the internal market.

:35:17.:35:21.

Jean-Claude Juncker is saying whoever comes from Britain needs to

:35:22.:35:23.

be serious, credible and a big hitter. That is the message they are

:35:24.:35:30.

putting out. Any ideas on who would fulfil these criteria? You have

:35:31.:35:38.

heard all the names. We have heard about Michael Howard, Andrew Lang 's

:35:39.:35:43.

Lay, William Hague, I am not sure he would be keen on it, even Nick

:35:44.:35:50.

Clegg. Lots of names out there. The expectation is that sometime next

:35:51.:35:54.

week when the European heads of government come here to Brussels,

:35:55.:35:59.

that he needs to have names, 28 names at least from all the

:36:00.:36:03.

countries, he may not get them I then but he would like them by then.

:36:04.:36:09.

He has also suggested that maybe some countries should put forward

:36:10.:36:15.

more than one name. The timetable, he would like to present those

:36:16.:36:21.

commissioners by October, but before then whoever is selected has to go

:36:22.:36:26.

before Parliamentary committees for a hearing in September, so there is

:36:27.:36:30.

a way to go. At the moment this is the key battle for Britain to secure

:36:31.:36:33.

one of those top economic post. Now,

:36:34.:36:37.

there's a big birthday coming up. It is the birthday of Magna Carta

:36:38.:36:39.

and using the opportunity to ask if it's

:36:40.:36:55.

time to ditch our unwritten using the opportunity to ask if it's

:36:56.:37:05.

constitution in favour of an American-style

:37:06.:37:06.

codified, written constitution. The closest we have got to written

:37:07.:37:07.

constitution, the Magna Carta. Oops, there is no 'the',

:37:08.:37:13.

it is just Magna Carta, It set out basic things

:37:14.:37:15.

like the idea of a law of the land and was signed 790 years

:37:16.:37:19.

ago in Runnymede by King John. Oops, it was not sign,

:37:20.:37:27.

it was sealed. Other concepts are enshrined

:37:28.:37:33.

in other bits of paper stowed away in Westminster like the Bill of

:37:34.:37:36.

Rights and the habeas corpus act. For some it is not what is written

:37:37.:37:39.

down that matters, it is what we do, conventions like the state opening

:37:40.:37:43.

of Parliament which remind us how But as long

:37:44.:37:45.

as this stuff is not codified into one document there will be a slight

:37:46.:37:49.

debate about whether it should be. The question is,

:37:50.:37:52.

will he be the first king who has I am joined by the chair of a

:37:53.:38:08.

political reform select committee which has published a consultation

:38:09.:38:13.

document and by a professor of government. What is the case for a

:38:14.:38:21.

written constitution? We have set out the case for and against because

:38:22.:38:25.

we want a debate. We are going to have six months of debate and

:38:26.:38:29.

hopefully every school child and student and professor and MP and

:38:30.:38:36.

journalists can participate. If you are asking my personal opinion why I

:38:37.:38:39.

would support a written constitution, it is important we

:38:40.:38:43.

know the rules. John Smith said you only know the British constitution

:38:44.:38:47.

if you have a degree in judicial archaeology. Why can you not have

:38:48.:38:51.

something you put in your back pocket and even quoted -- what it? I

:38:52.:39:02.

wish I had jumped on the bandwagon but if you are going to produce a

:39:03.:39:07.

document this thick, it is four years of hard work. How many trees

:39:08.:39:16.

have died in the process? We have provided a model written

:39:17.:39:18.

constitution and a couple of options to codify what we have now and to

:39:19.:39:23.

put into law the Cabinet manual. It is a debate rather than, I think

:39:24.:39:29.

this has to happen. It is great for people out there. Is it not true

:39:30.:39:33.

that we have in recent years moved away down anyway, devolution for

:39:34.:39:39.

Scotland, it provides a written constitution for a devolved

:39:40.:39:45.

Scotland, we have a Supreme Court, which is more written to the law

:39:46.:39:48.

than before, but whereas we used to say our Constitution was written,

:39:49.:39:54.

big parts of it are written? It is not that it is on written, it is

:39:55.:40:06.

uncle divide. -- uncodified. My problem with what is presented as

:40:07.:40:12.

the lack of clarity. Simply drawing together the existing rules and

:40:13.:40:14.

actually entrenching them, which is what the committee means by a

:40:15.:40:20.

written constitution. It does not actually address what it claims to

:40:21.:40:24.

address. Do you have a fundamental principle objection to a written

:40:25.:40:29.

concert douching? Principled and practical because I do not see how

:40:30.:40:32.

we get from here to there at the committees do not provide that. My

:40:33.:40:38.

objection is who ultimately resolves issues? Should it be representatives

:40:39.:40:45.

or the judges? You can make a principled argument for it being the

:40:46.:40:48.

judgement but political issue should be resolved by representatives. That

:40:49.:40:58.

does not include the second chamber. Part of the problem is that the

:40:59.:41:03.

representatives and government are conflated in our system. We do not

:41:04.:41:07.

have a separation of powers within our system or that Parliament can

:41:08.:41:11.

hold government to account and what we are trying to do is get that

:41:12.:41:18.

argument into the open to being. People are fed up with our politics

:41:19.:41:22.

and have lost faith and something like this will allow them to enter

:41:23.:41:29.

the debate and transcend that. It will not get the issues people are

:41:30.:41:32.

concerned about because the argument is not that our system is not

:41:33.:41:36.

broken, there are problems we need to address, but this does not do it.

:41:37.:41:44.

All this does is codify the existing system. The metaphor I like to use

:41:45.:41:48.

is a boxing ring. It is not about the boxers. What this does is set

:41:49.:41:56.

the boundaries, the framework, what is the relationship between local

:41:57.:41:59.

government and national government? What is the relationship between

:42:00.:42:04.

devolved countries and the centre? Does it set the framework for

:42:05.:42:08.

changing the constitution? Yes, there are proposals about how you

:42:09.:42:14.

can do that. To allow yourself and everybody watching the show to write

:42:15.:42:19.

in between now and January the 1st, it is on the website, and make

:42:20.:42:27.

changes. Viewers will love this. Make changes, this is a model. Does

:42:28.:42:35.

this get your juices going? In the context of things that need to be

:42:36.:42:38.

addressed, this is not on the agenda. You could always say that.

:42:39.:42:45.

It is never a good time. Would you like local government to know

:42:46.:42:47.

exactly where maggots bands and have the ability to be independent? Do

:42:48.:42:55.

you think England should have a devolved settlement? Is that in

:42:56.:43:03.

there? Yes. You can amend that and make that relevant. This is the

:43:04.:43:11.

point. More excited? Not yet. The issue for me, I am sure it is the

:43:12.:43:15.

problem you have with people out there generally, the attitude says,

:43:16.:43:20.

we have managed for 800 years, what is the urgent aid for change? Do you

:43:21.:43:26.

think things are fine at the moment with the party coming from nowhere

:43:27.:43:34.

to get 25% of the vote with an collection where a majority could be

:43:35.:43:43.

formed on 28%? Our union partners saying we are thinking about leaving

:43:44.:43:46.

the union. You have mentioned that. Let me ask you, if Scotland votes to

:43:47.:43:56.

stay in the union, the three main Westminster parties, and the UKIP,

:43:57.:44:02.

have promised further devolution. I would suggest that if there is a lot

:44:03.:44:07.

more devolution to Edinburgh other will be demands for more to Cardiff

:44:08.:44:12.

and the English will want the West Lothian question answered. Would

:44:13.:44:15.

there be a possibility of a constitutional convention for the

:44:16.:44:18.

whole of the UK for this to become relevant? There is an argument for

:44:19.:44:23.

convention but not for the purposes indicated. We need to make sense of

:44:24.:44:30.

where we are. The point you have made militates against this document

:44:31.:44:34.

because it will not be static. There will be the sort of changes you have

:44:35.:44:38.

mentioned. It is a framework that is amendable. Scots will not believe us

:44:39.:44:47.

unless there is something written very carefully. Most of the Scots

:44:48.:44:52.

would come back to the union and be part of the family if they knew...

:44:53.:45:00.

They have said unless you sort yourself out we will leave. One of

:45:01.:45:04.

the ways is to be clear. You are not clear. You need a precise act of

:45:05.:45:11.

Parliament because that makes clear what the relationship is rather than

:45:12.:45:18.

a broad document. I think we can agree we have started the argument.

:45:19.:45:23.

We have started the journey. Thank you.

:45:24.:45:28.

More now on the Government's announcement of emergency

:45:29.:45:30.

legislation designed to ensure the police and security services

:45:31.:45:32.

can continue to access people's phone and internet records.

:45:33.:45:34.

Just over an hour ago the Home Secretary Theresa May told

:45:35.:45:37.

the House of Commons why the new legislation is needed.

:45:38.:45:43.

We face two significant and urgent problems relating to both

:45:44.:45:47.

communications data and interception. First, the recent

:45:48.:45:52.

judgement by the European Court of Justice, that called into question

:45:53.:45:58.

the legal basis upon which we require communication service

:45:59.:46:00.

providers in the UK to retain communications data. And second, the

:46:01.:46:06.

increasingly pressing need to put beyond doubt the application of our

:46:07.:46:09.

laws on interception so that communication service providers have

:46:10.:46:14.

to comply with their legal obligations irrespective of where

:46:15.:46:17.

they are based. So I can tell the house that today the government is

:46:18.:46:21.

announcing the introduction of fast track legislation, through the data

:46:22.:46:25.

retention and investigatory Powers Bill, to deal with these two

:46:26.:46:27.

problems. We have been joined by the Labour

:46:28.:46:31.

backbencher Tom Watson, who this morning has condemned

:46:32.:46:33.

the plans as a "stitch up" which prevent MPs from considering

:46:34.:46:36.

the legislation properly. You have a principled objection to

:46:37.:46:55.

this. It is very difficult for me whether to say whether I do or do

:46:56.:47:00.

not, I have only received the bill in the last 30 minutes, there is

:47:01.:47:03.

virtually no way that I can come to an informed view on it and that is

:47:04.:47:09.

the real problem. It is the stitch up that is making you suspicious.

:47:10.:47:14.

This is hasty legislation, and we know that invariably goes wrong.

:47:15.:47:18.

This is on an issue of great concern to many people out there in the

:47:19.:47:22.

country. There have been secret talks between the three party

:47:23.:47:25.

frontbenchers, to reach an accommodation on legislation that

:47:26.:47:29.

most MPs are still not aware about, let alone have the ability to read

:47:30.:47:33.

it. That has recipe for disaster written all over it! There will be

:47:34.:47:37.

people out there in the country who are yet further in gate from the

:47:38.:47:42.

political process, further eroded, because the some reason they were

:47:43.:47:48.

not given time to discuss this. Is a crucial backbencher in this process,

:47:49.:47:53.

how do you see it unfolding over the next... Parliament goes out for the

:47:54.:47:56.

summer recess in a few weeks. Theresa May will get this three

:47:57.:48:05.

major parties have been talked to. It is very frustrating because we

:48:06.:48:09.

will go next week, we will try to improve the bill, look at the

:48:10.:48:12.

clauses as best we can and maybe move amendments but it will be

:48:13.:48:16.

whipped through. There will be no proper scrutiny, the select

:48:17.:48:19.

committees will not have time to look at it. Will it go to a standing

:48:20.:48:24.

committee? We do not yet know... ! As it stands it looks like it will

:48:25.:48:28.

be railroaded through both houses in a day or two! It will be done on the

:48:29.:48:35.

floor of the house. If all three parties are being whipped, that will

:48:36.:48:41.

make amendments more difficult. I do not know what Nick Clegg did... Here

:48:42.:48:46.

is the Deputy Prime Minister, who stood up to say "I do not believe in

:48:47.:48:50.

the surveillance state", one of his key manifesto promises, like tuition

:48:51.:48:56.

fees, and yet he is standing up a three party deal in just lay lay

:48:57.:49:00.

next week. It is a real shame. What you say to the people who are

:49:01.:49:04.

watching events unfolding in Iraq. -- is standing a three party deal in

:49:05.:49:12.

legislation next week. Many British citizens involved in Iraq and Syria,

:49:13.:49:15.

our concern is that they come back and they are serious terror threats

:49:16.:49:19.

and people may think, give the security services what they need, we

:49:20.:49:23.

need is to be protected. I am a patriot, I believe we need a secure

:49:24.:49:29.

state, I have authorised covert surveillance by military

:49:30.:49:31.

intelligence as a former defence secretary, I am not running away

:49:32.:49:34.

from that concern. What we have got to do is draw the line between

:49:35.:49:37.

liberty and security and the only way you can do that is by having a

:49:38.:49:42.

public discourse where civic institutions can take part in this

:49:43.:49:46.

democratic process. There is no way they can do that in three days. How

:49:47.:49:51.

come Ed Miliband has gone along with this? I have absolutely no idea and

:49:52.:49:55.

I'm afraid I'm very disappointed... I can understand him reaching a

:49:56.:49:58.

conclusion that you support the content of the bill which I have not

:49:59.:50:02.

yet seen but which he has, but to allow this to go through with such

:50:03.:50:09.

unnecessary haste... That is not just anti-democratic, I think it is

:50:10.:50:12.

a political mistake that the Labour Party. You have any idea how many

:50:13.:50:15.

like-minded people like yourself on both sides. -- do you have any idea

:50:16.:50:22.

how many like-minded people you have? When I left the chamber it

:50:23.:50:25.

seemed to be just me and David Davies! But there is hundreds of MPs

:50:26.:50:31.

who will not even know we had an emergency statement today because

:50:32.:50:34.

they are in their constituencies! Over the weekend, this may build,

:50:35.:50:42.

but at the moment, it is two! It can only grow! Thank you for joining us.

:50:43.:50:48.

So, the stage is set for a thrilling World Cup final

:50:49.:51:06.

on Sunday, I'm told it's Germany and Argentina battling it

:51:07.:51:09.

out in Rio. Of course, England's world cup dreams died what seems

:51:10.:51:16.

like months ago, and just in case you needed reminding, take a look.

:51:17.:51:52.

How could England and for that matter the national teams of

:51:53.:51:57.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ever hope for success in a major

:51:58.:52:02.

tournament? One MP thinks he has the answer, you're starting a campaign

:52:03.:52:06.

to get the four national football associations to field a combined UK

:52:07.:52:10.

team. Laurence Robertson joins us now.

:52:11.:52:16.

Laurence Robertson joins me now, as does the SNP's Pete Wishart.

:52:17.:52:19.

This smacks of desperation! The Scots, the Welsh and the Northern

:52:20.:52:28.

Ireland to help us out. Perhaps I do not have the answer, I am not

:52:29.:52:33.

prepared to accept... I'm not prepared to accept the inevitability

:52:34.:52:36.

that we cannot compete at world level at football any more. We have

:52:37.:52:40.

had the players over the years, we have divided ourselves into four, I

:52:41.:52:44.

am not aware of any other country in the world that does that. America

:52:45.:52:50.

does not put forward 50 teams! We are causing problems for ourselves

:52:51.:52:53.

and we are denying opportunities to people in Scotland, Wales and

:52:54.:52:57.

Northern Ireland to appear in World Cup finals. It is the only

:52:58.:53:01.

opportunity a Scottish football player is ever going to get as

:53:02.:53:04.

qualifying for a major tournament. Scotland have done pretty well just

:53:05.:53:12.

now... Where were they in Brazil? When did we, if I am allowed to use

:53:13.:53:17.

the week, when did we last qualify? 1990, for the World Cup. But we have

:53:18.:53:24.

got some fantastic games and we have seen some fantastic games. This is

:53:25.:53:28.

part of national life, this is ingrained into the culture, it is

:53:29.:53:33.

something, when Scotland... We were internationally recognised, part and

:53:34.:53:39.

parcel of what we are about. I am sick and tired of Westminster trying

:53:40.:53:42.

to subvert the national football team. What is happening is we have

:53:43.:53:47.

all of the International football authorities sitting in Geneva, they

:53:48.:53:51.

are looking for any excuse to combine these teams together. We

:53:52.:53:55.

must do all that we can to defend the national side, I do not detect

:53:56.:53:58.

any sense that this is what is desired in England. Scottish fans

:53:59.:54:02.

are Scottish fans, England fans are England fans. -- Scottish fans are

:54:03.:54:10.

Scotland fans. I was in a bar in Edinburgh watching England against

:54:11.:54:13.

Italy, a number of fellow Scotsmen were cheering for Italy and I

:54:14.:54:18.

reminded them, and my friend Stephen Hepburn MP reminded me, when

:54:19.:54:21.

Scotland play, we cheer for Scotland. They were very well

:54:22.:54:27.

mannered. When Andy Murray won Wimbledon, fantastic achievement for

:54:28.:54:30.

Scotland, but for the United Kingdom as well. Let me ask you this, would

:54:31.:54:37.

it really make any difference? Is there any Scottish... Is there any

:54:38.:54:41.

Scottish player who would actually get into a British... I think there

:54:42.:54:47.

is and over the years, he may have even... Over the years, certainly,

:54:48.:54:52.

but what about now? Looking at the long-term. In the 1970s, Pete

:54:53.:54:58.

referred to, there would have been a majority of the Scottish players in

:54:59.:55:03.

the UK team. Name me one, now that would make it. I do not know if

:55:04.:55:06.

there is one England player who was good enough to be there, to be

:55:07.:55:12.

honest! Why bother having a team! The British Lions, the whole of

:55:13.:55:14.

Ireland plays with the British Lions. The British Lions to warrant

:55:15.:55:21.

it, there is a great opportunity for people to participate, but there is

:55:22.:55:25.

no desire, nobody wants a joint UK football team!

:55:26.:55:59.

through... Belgium, Holland. Belgium, the Netherlands, Costa

:56:00.:56:00.

Rica, Uruguay, they are not massive. We are one jurisdiction

:56:01.:56:08.

with four teams, that is crazy. The point you have been making, it is

:56:09.:56:11.

something of a historical anomaly, that we are allowed to put in four

:56:12.:56:17.

teams. My understanding is that it is basically because this was the

:56:18.:56:20.

home of football, better organised, separate football associations when

:56:21.:56:25.

these competitions began. At some stage, like our seat in the UN, they

:56:26.:56:32.

may rumble us! They are watching motions like this, the footballing

:56:33.:56:36.

authorities, they do not like the idea that we have four national

:56:37.:56:41.

side. What has happened here, he has encouraged them! I hope my level of

:56:42.:56:48.

influence is that strong! It would threaten the integrity of the

:56:49.:56:53.

national football side and... They come forward with these motions and

:56:54.:56:58.

these ideas. The Tartan Army, every Scottish football fan would be

:56:59.:56:59.

appalled. Team GB in the Olympics two years

:57:00.:57:11.

ago. That is different! Goodness... I want to see success for the

:57:12.:57:14.

football team. Should you not have checked out if there were any

:57:15.:57:17.

Scottish Welsh or Northern Irish players good enough to play in a

:57:18.:57:21.

British team before you came up with this idea. I think there are. You

:57:22.:57:28.

cannot give me a name. Gareth Bale, of course. Where is he from? He is

:57:29.:57:34.

Welsh. Ryan Giggs would have been good enough to get in the present

:57:35.:57:39.

squad. So we have got to Welshman. Wales are probably doing better than

:57:40.:57:44.

Scotland. Gareth Bale is the only one that would come to my mind at

:57:45.:57:50.

the moment. If that is how the people of Scotland vote, that yes on

:57:51.:57:55.

your lapel, then it is a nonstarter! That is the only way to preserve the

:57:56.:58:00.

integrity of the national side. Don't turn it into a referendum!

:58:01.:58:01.

LAUGHTER If we vote no, then what we are

:58:02.:58:08.

hearing from Conservative Westminster MPs is that if we vote

:58:09.:58:11.

no, the National football side is in danger! I'm told it is every couple

:58:12.:58:18.

of years, in between the World Cup, it is the European tournament of

:58:19.:58:22.

nations, will Scotland qualify for that? Very good question, yes we

:58:23.:58:27.

will! But the first site we are up against, Germany! Wales have got a

:58:28.:58:34.

better chance of qualifying! -- but the first side we are up against is

:58:35.:58:38.

Germany. Thanks to Tom Crotty

:58:39.:58:43.

and all my guests. I'm back on BBC One tonight at 11.35

:58:44.:58:46.

with a special edition of This Week and I shall be in Edinburgh with

:58:47.:58:52.

guests including Michael Portillo, Diane Abbott, Charles Kennedy

:58:53.:58:57.

and Susan Boyle, all in front

:58:58.:59:02.

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