09/07/2014 Daily Politics


09/07/2014

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest on the Westminster child abuse inquiry, with education minister Elizabeth Truss and shadow attorney general Emily Thornberry.


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Transcript


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Elizabeth Butler-Sloss is to lead a wide-ranging inquiry into

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allegations of historic child abuse among the political establishment.

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But is the 80-year-old Baroness and former appeal court judge

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Labour's deputy leader Harriet Harman attacks Gordon Brown

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for failing to make her deputy prime minister.

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Was Mr Brown sexist or Ms Harman just not up to the job?

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They are hoping some of the stardust rubs off.

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Is it time for Prime Ministers stopped sucking up to celebrities?

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We take a look at why politicians should always

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Did you set it up like that? That is the kind of thing that you would do!

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LAUGHTER Did you set it

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up like that? That is of course, prime Minister's

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questions at midday. And with us for the duration,

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two politicians who we couldn't find in embarrassing photos, and

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believe me we've looked, Education Minister Liz Truss and shadow

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Attorney General Emily Thornberry. First this morning, her

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appointment was announced just yesterday but there are already

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calls as the chair of a wide-ranging

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inquiry into allegations of child Her brother Michael Havers was

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Attorney General at the time some of these allegations of child abuse

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were being made in the early 1980s. The campaigning Labour MP Simon

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Dancuzk told our correspondent Norman Smith that she was the

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wrong person to lead the inquiry. -- Simon Danczuk. I think that she

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could reconsider her position, I find it surprisingly neither she nor

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the government realise that her relationship with her brother was

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connected to Geoffrey Dickens and all of this palaver around it. It

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beggars belief that it had not been considered in the first place. The

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Home Office stressed that she is a figure of unemployed -- she is a

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figure of unimpeachable integrity and that overshadows any kind of

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family affiliation. Yes, but she sits in the House of Lords, some of

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the people accused of this kind of abuse may sit alongside her and that

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is not look good to the wider public.

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Is it right for an independent enquiry into historic sexual abuse

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at Westminster and other parts of the establishment to be led by an

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80-year-old stole wort of the establishment? This is a decision

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which has been made by the Home Secretary, Theresa May, she is a

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woman of unimpeachable integrity, former High Court judge, she has a

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lot of experience into looking into these issues. She is also a member

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of the establishment. Age should not come into it, it is how good you are

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and how capable you are of getting a job done. She's extremely

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experienced, she has worked on human trafficking, and it has been judged

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she will be the best person to do the job. When she sits in the House

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of Lords she's not sitting beside people who are into human

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trafficking but she could well be sitting beside people against whom

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allegations will be made. It is not right to question her integrity as a

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former High Court judge, she has been chosen by the Home Secretary,

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someone who is right to do the job. She will be ably assisted by a

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number of other people on the enquiry, they will have full access

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to all of the files. Theresa May has made it clear that no stone will be

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left unturned, such a critical issue, so important to keep our

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children safe. Questioning the integrity of Baroness Butler Sloss

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is not a good way to start. What is your position? When people ask for

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independent enquiries, they often want a judge to lead it, it is

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judges do come with a feeling of trust from the government. She used

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to be in the Court of Appeal. She is the chair of a major child abuse

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enquiry in the past. Yes, but, her brother was Lord favours, Attorney

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General, and if you remember, in fact, Geoffrey Dickens gave a couple

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of dossiers, one to the Home Office and the other to the DPP, two

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copies. The DPP copy has also gone missing! -- Lord have is. -- Lord

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Havers. I do not question her integrity, but I'm surprised that

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the Home Office did not look at this because I think they have put her in

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a very difficult position. I think that she has been chosen by the Home

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Secretary, Home Secretary will have looked at the various candidates

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available. As Emily points out, she has a great deal of experience in

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this area. Somebody who has the long history of working in areas like

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family law is bound to have known some of the people involved, there

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is a large establishment. As I say, I think she is absolutely committed

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to making sure that the enquiry is conducted with integrity. There is a

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motocross politics and government to once and for all open up areas that

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previously... Does it worry you that this Lady's brother was Attorney

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General at the time the allegations were originally made and nothing was

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done about those allegations. The Home Secretary will have taken that

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into account when making a decision. Might surprise some people. She will

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have looked at who was the best person to I know Elizabeth Butler

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Sloss, I think she's a woman incredible ability and integrity,

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I'm sure that is why she has been chosen by the Home Secretary. May I

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say one other thing, it has been said that the Lord try to stop the

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naming of Peter Heymann in the House of Commons, that is another issue.

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Peter Heymann turned out to be a notorious paedophile. It was covered

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up for years and years. Even when his secret flat in Notting Hill was

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discovered, with apparently horrible things in it, he was only ticked

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off. Letters, letters from all kinds of people. Exactly. The idea has

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been floated that it should be made illegal for institutions like

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schools and hospitals not to report abuse, what do you say? We welcome

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this, it is something we have been thinking about for a long time on

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the Labour side, I have had discussions with the NSPCC, I know

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that they have been against this until recently. I welcome the change

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of heart. Do you know what, I think there were terrible things that came

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out of this, one of the things which really got to me was when one young

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girl, one woman who had been a young girl, was told by a nurse to keep

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her eyes closed, to keep her eyes closed and pretend that she was

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asleep so they Jimmy Savile would not prey upon her. And yet that

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nurse did not report back to the police. There are pros and cons to

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mandatory reporting, that is something we are considering, we are

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open to the idea. You have opposed it in the past. We have posted in

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the past because of the issue of whether we up with over reporting,

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whether we end up with social services becoming overwhelmed? Do we

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end up with not actually dealing with the real cases we need to deal

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with, and do we end up putting children in more danger? One of the

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countries that has used mandatory reporting, Australia, and the

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evidence is very next. America, Australia, Canada, Northern Ireland.

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Nobody questions the desire to hold perpetrators to justice and hold

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them to account, the question is, how best to do it? We are looking at

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it, and we think, we think the case is very closely balanced, but we are

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prepared to speak with experts. What all of these various enquiries are

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showing is there is a serious issue here, we need to address that and we

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need to think again. I personally think that if someone is in loco

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parentis, if somebody has been given the trust of a child, and they see

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their child being abused, if a child abuse complains about abuse, we

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should look at whether or not they are morally obliged to a port,

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whether it should go further than that. -- morally obliged to report.

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Do you really expect whips to open their black books, all of the

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secrets that are in there? My understanding is that the

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Conservative whips along with whips of other parties have agreed to open

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up their books and that is right. We need to look at this. I presume it

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will be restricted to just child abuse issues. Presumably, the idea

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that there is a whip in the 1980s he said, "we know about them

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interfering with little boys, we hold it against them..." He said it

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on the record and he said it laughing. That is extraordinary.

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Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman, has said she

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expects Ed Miliband to give her the job of deputy Prime Minister

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if Labour win an overall majority in next year's general election.

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In a speech last night she hit out at Gordon Brown for failing to

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give her the job when she first became deputy leader back in 2007.

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"Imagine my surprise", she said, "when having won a hard-fought

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election to succeed John Prescott as deputy leader of the Labour Party, I

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discovered that I was not to succeed him as deputy prime minister."

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"If one of the men had won the deputy leadership would that have

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But Harman's comments were swiftly rebuffed by Gordon Brown's

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"It's utter bilge from Harriet", he said, "done to make her attack on

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Dave to look non-partisan." "As every man and woman who ever

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worked for him could attest, Gordon judged people on only one thing:

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Later, speaking to Laura Kuenssberg on Newsnight, Ms Harman

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indicated that she expected Ed Miliband to give her the job:

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I do expect to be Deputy Prime Minister when, as I hope, we win the

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election with a majority next year. And if that comes to pass and you do

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not become the deputy promised, will that make Ed Miliband a sexist? That

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is too many conjectures, I hope that we will win the election and I hope

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to be deputy promised but I hope that there will be more women MPs

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delivering more equality for women out in the country. That is

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important. I am a -- I am a huge fan of Harriet

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Harman, everybody knows that, Labour has pushed the agenda in terms of

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women. We should be judged on our policies. Was Gordon Brown sexist

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for not the role deputy promised? If I was Gordon Brown, I would have

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given her the role in a shot, she is an extraordinary woman with a great

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deal to offer, she is not backward in coming forward! We have a lot of

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women like that and the Labour Party, almost half the Shadow

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Cabinet are women who are like that, I put my hands up, I am one of the

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bolshie women in the Shadow Cabinet. We are not silenced. Despite Gordon

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Brown, do you think Gordon Brown made a decision based upon sexism,

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if he had made a decision based upon sexism,

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if he won the debris do leadership, made a decision based upon sexism,

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if he won the debris would Alan Johnson have been deputy promised? I

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was a backbencher at the time, I was not in the inner circle, I just know

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what I think: Harriet Harman is amazing and I would have made her

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Deputy Prime Minister. In the end it is up to leaders to decide, and as

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for the next election, we have got to win that first. If she wins the

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election it will be up to Ed to decide. You have not said if he was

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all was not sexist, and if he was sexist, he did not think she was up

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to the job. I have always been a fan of hers and always supported hers.

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-- her. In the end, what matters is what we do as a party, particularly

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when we are in government in racing to women. If Gordon Brown did not

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think that she was up to the job, was it right to make -- was it right

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not to make a deputy promised, because that would have been wrong.

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The most important thing is that women listen to and we policies, you

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can see when women are not listened to in government, you look at, for

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example, in my brief, the way in which violence against women and

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girls has been downgraded until recently in my opinion in terms of

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prosecutions. Six pimps were prosecuted last year! That sort of

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thing shows that this is not front and centre, this is not on the

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table. This is not about Harriet Harman... I take your point... Let's

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put Harman... I take your point... Let's

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this in the context of the main political party, and compare us with

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the Tories. We are light years ahead. Really, one could have

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listened to the interview and said that she is making gear to Ed

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Miliband that she should be made deputy promised. Should Ed Miliband

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promised her the role now, the ticket is, Ed Miliband, Harriet

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Harman, she will be the deputy prime ministers. Know, the ticket is

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Labour needs to win should you promise. At will make the decisions,

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Ed is very much in charge. -- Ed will make the decisions. Half the

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Shadow Cabinet are women and we have policies which are developed early

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because we are there. She is the second Labour woman who has come out

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and said that Gordon Brown was responsible for windowdressing.

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Caroline Flint. Yes, she was the first one, in the Labour Party there

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is a culture of putting women in positions and not and being

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tokenistic. Really, come on! The Secretary of State was sacked

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because she was too old and replaced by somebody who was older!

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now? There are three. Is it good enough? No, it is not good enough.

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We have got more women than ever before. There is a pipeline, women

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need to get experience at a ministerial level and they need to

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build up in a meritocratic process by which we can succeed. If you look

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at Ed Miliband's back office, if you look at who is controlling his

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operator, it is not women. They are in the Shadow Cabinet, but not in

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the back room. What about you? Are you expecting a job? I am very much

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enjoying the job I am doing. I have the responsibility for raising

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standards in schools, to make sure our children get the best education

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possible. It is hugely satisfying. If you got offered a Cabinet job,

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you would not see it as window dressing? It is up to the Prime

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Minister. In the Conservative Party we have robust debates and if you

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look at the promotion to the culture secretary, he has been put in that

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job because he is brilliant. You are not happy with the number of women.

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We want more women MPs on the Conservative Party site. We want to

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open up what politics and we want to bring more women through the

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pipeline. He has his bag carriers who are always his man, David

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Cameron. With Labour two women in the previous Labour Cabinet Bove

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said Gordon Brown did windowdressing. If you read Alistair

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Campbell's diaries, you can see what a masculine Government the Labour

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Government work. I do not think they had real power, those women. Let's

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see if in the reshuffle Ed Miliband promises Harriet Harman Deputy Prime

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Minister. They went from outstanding to be

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in special measures in just a few years,

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so did Ofsted get it spectacularly wrong in its verdict on

:17:37.:17:39.

the Birmingham schools at the centre This morning the chief inspector

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of schools and head of Ofsted, Sir Michael Wilshaw, has been

:17:43.:17:47.

grilled by MPs on whether his inspectors failed to spot a creeping

:17:48.:17:49.

Islamification of these schools. Some previously outstanding schools

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have got into difficult problems within relatively short time scales.

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Has that made you reassess about the previous attitude towards the

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inspection of outstanding schools? Yes, we do really inspect

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outstanding schools where there is a dip in performance and where our

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risk assessment processes trigger an inspection. I think we need to

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repeat this. These schools once judged to be outstanding decline

:18:30.:18:35.

rapidly. We inspect schools once in every five years and in the case of

:18:36.:18:39.

academies, once every seven. We are going to change that. There will be

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more frequent inspections. But even within those shorter inspection

:18:48.:18:53.

schedules, schools can slip. How was it that these schools went from

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outstanding to being put into special measures in the space of a

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few years? Parkview in Birmingham went from outstanding to inadequate

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in two years. First of all, Sir Michael has done a fantastic job of

:19:09.:19:14.

chief inspector of schools. He is overhauling the inspection system

:19:15.:19:17.

and is bringing on training and more high-quality inspectors and is

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bringing in-house companies that used to run inspections. What he

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admitted this morning at the select committee was that things that were

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going on in those schools that should have been noticed by a

:19:32.:19:35.

inspectors were not noticed. Why did they go from outstanding to special

:19:36.:19:40.

measures in such a small space of time? Because the initial inspection

:19:41.:19:44.

that took place did not recognise things that were going on in the

:19:45.:19:49.

school that were problematic. Such as? The overseas visits. They did

:19:50.:19:55.

not know about them? They did, but they did not recognise it was an

:19:56.:20:01.

issue. They did not think taking Muslim kids to medical on school

:20:02.:20:07.

funds was an issue? Correct and that is why Sir Michael has said that was

:20:08.:20:11.

an issue and that is why the inspection has been corrected this

:20:12.:20:15.

time around. He has admitted the inspections were not conducted as

:20:16.:20:18.

they ought to have been earlier on and that is hence the change in the

:20:19.:20:24.

judgement. But we all know there are issues across the board, there are

:20:25.:20:28.

lessons to be learned. What has been going on in these schools is not

:20:29.:20:33.

right. Children have not been taught British values, they have not learnt

:20:34.:20:38.

those shared values. I want to find out why they seem to go wrong so

:20:39.:20:44.

quickly. The man you just praise, Sir Michael Wilshaw, in March this

:20:45.:20:49.

year he was suggesting a light touch inspection of schools that had

:20:50.:20:52.

already been categorised as outstanding. That will not happen

:20:53.:20:59.

now, will it? The policy has changed since these investigations. He was

:21:00.:21:04.

suggesting they change the policy to have only light touch inspection of

:21:05.:21:09.

schools that were outstanding. Given what was made as standing in

:21:10.:21:12.

Birmingham, I am suggesting this will not be taken on board. That is

:21:13.:21:19.

what he is saying. So he was wrong? Yes, and he has changed his view on

:21:20.:21:24.

that issue, just as the view has been changed on no notice

:21:25.:21:29.

inspections. We are introducing no notice inspections to make sure

:21:30.:21:34.

schools doing those wrong things are caught out. He suggested these

:21:35.:21:42.

schools, quote, in a speech to the Association of School and College

:21:43.:21:45.

leaders, that these schools should no longer be subject to full and

:21:46.:21:49.

routine inspections in the way they are now. If we had gone down that

:21:50.:21:53.

road, we would never have found out what was happening because they were

:21:54.:21:59.

outstanding schools. That is right. He was wrong. There are two issues.

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First of all is the quality of inspectors and inspections. Those

:22:07.:22:09.

inspectors who went in in 2012 should have spotted things they did

:22:10.:22:13.

not spot. That is being addressed through better training. The second

:22:14.:22:19.

is how do we monitor outstanding schools? That is where he is saying

:22:20.:22:24.

there needs to be a change in approach to recognise it is not just

:22:25.:22:27.

about fantastic performance in league tables, but it is also about

:22:28.:22:32.

are those schools teaching British values? We introduced new guidelines

:22:33.:22:36.

this week which Ofsted will be looking at in their inspection

:22:37.:22:40.

framework. We have changed because we recognise there is an issue.

:22:41.:22:45.

Teachers and parents started raising concerns about some of these schools

:22:46.:22:50.

in Birmingham as early as 2002. Your party remained in power for eight

:22:51.:22:54.

years after that. Why did Labour do nothing about it? We want to

:22:55.:23:01.

introduce a local person... I am asking you why did you not do

:23:02.:23:06.

anything about it? It has been accepted there were mistakes made.

:23:07.:23:12.

Why? I do not know, but I know mistakes have been made. What we

:23:13.:23:17.

want to do, and we want the Conservatives to pick it up and do

:23:18.:23:23.

it, not because it is our idea, but to have someone locally whose

:23:24.:23:27.

responsibility it is to take it over. Whether you are a free school

:23:28.:23:33.

or an academy or whatever, you will be answerable. You cannot run all

:23:34.:23:38.

these plethora of new schools and academies like this. That body was

:23:39.:23:43.

meant to be Birmingham City Council. When these issues first

:23:44.:23:48.

arose all of these schools were under Birmingham council control,

:23:49.:23:51.

and many still are, and yet no action was taken. The school in the

:23:52.:23:58.

photograph is an academy and it is answerable to Whitehall. I am not

:23:59.:24:03.

making a party political point. It was a handful of academies that were

:24:04.:24:09.

failing. We did not want all schools to be made independent and

:24:10.:24:11.

answerable to Michael Gove in Whitehall, it does not work. Many of

:24:12.:24:18.

the schools in Birmingham are answerable to Birmingham City

:24:19.:24:20.

Council and it is clear it has questions to answer. Somebody

:24:21.:24:27.

locally responsible for standards up and down the country that we can

:24:28.:24:33.

make sure... That is Birmingham City Council's job. The council should

:24:34.:24:39.

take the responsibility for academies and free schools as well?

:24:40.:24:43.

They should take responsibility for their maintained schools. She is

:24:44.:24:48.

talking about how do you regulate the academies and the free schools?

:24:49.:24:54.

It cannot all be done by Ofsted or Whitehall. She has come up with a

:24:55.:25:01.

proposal. What is your reaction? She is not acknowledging many of these

:25:02.:25:04.

schools are still maintained schools under local authority control. They

:25:05.:25:12.

are answerable to the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State has

:25:13.:25:18.

taken action. I thought the Tory party really believed the man and

:25:19.:25:21.

woman in Whitehall does not know best. That used to be your mantra.

:25:22.:25:27.

You are now saying that the man and woman in Whitehall do know best. We

:25:28.:25:33.

are creating regional schools commissioners who will have

:25:34.:25:35.

delegated powers of the Secretary of State. What does that mean? It

:25:36.:25:42.

sounds like your proposal! Let me tell you the difference. That is

:25:43.:25:52.

good news. The commissioners' policy involves recreating local policy

:25:53.:26:01.

bureaucracy at local level. There is not quite a meeting of minds there.

:26:02.:26:06.

Westminster is abuzz with feverish speculation. Who is going up and who

:26:07.:26:27.

is going down? Leave her alone. It is all people are talking about in

:26:28.:26:32.

Westminster's tearooms. But making an educated guess is a mug's game.

:26:33.:26:40.

You can see where this is going. Some might say reshuffles merely

:26:41.:26:46.

replace old mugs with new ones. If you want to clear out your old

:26:47.:26:51.

mugs, you just have to enter guess the year.

:26:52.:26:53.

Let's see if you can remember when this happens. And all over the world

:26:54.:27:02.

countless millions are awaiting to take part in spirit in the last

:27:03.:27:08.

journey of his Majesty King George V. # When the dawn flames in the

:27:09.:27:28.

sky, my love moves. #. # You ain't given no money, you

:27:29.:27:58.

can't buy no clothes to wear... # Keep your feet of my doorstep...

:27:59.:28:09.

To the new sovereign and Queen Elizabeth and the little lady who is

:28:10.:28:13.

heir to the throne, long life and all happiness.

:28:14.:28:25.

To be in with a chance of winning, send your answer to our e-mail

:28:26.:28:33.

address. You can see the full terms and conditions on the website. The

:28:34.:28:44.

clue is the funeral of the King which sparked a constitutional

:28:45.:28:49.

crisis. Don't give it away. It is coming up to midday. Prime

:28:50.:28:54.

Minister's Questions is on its way, the penultimate one until the summer

:28:55.:29:01.

recess. If you would like to comment on proceedings, and please try and

:29:02.:29:08.

be polite, send us an e-mail. Or you can tweet your thought using the

:29:09.:29:16.

hash tag. We may read some out if they are nice and literate and not

:29:17.:29:20.

nasty. Speaking of not nasty, Nick Robinson is here. You did not say

:29:21.:29:24.

not nice! nasty. Speaking of not nasty, Nick

:29:25.:29:27.

Robinson is here. You did What is going to happen? What is the leader

:29:28.:29:32.

of the opposition going to go on today? It would be odd if he did not

:29:33.:29:38.

pick up on the child abuse enquiry, but my instinct is it would be odd

:29:39.:29:43.

if he did not pick up on whether Baroness Butler-Sloss is the right

:29:44.:29:52.

person for the enquiry. If I were Ed Miliband, I would be tempted to push

:29:53.:29:58.

him on that. Last week you were talking about Ed Miliband's claim

:29:59.:30:02.

that David Cameron got his figures on waiting times in the NHS. A bit

:30:03.:30:06.

tempting to quote the House of Commons library who said the Prime

:30:07.:30:11.

Minister produced simplistic data and withdrew it when it was

:30:12.:30:15.

suggested it was a very partial description. But they then reissued

:30:16.:30:24.

it. We all regard what the House of Commons library says as gospel. All

:30:25.:30:28.

they did was change the commentary, they did not change the data. They

:30:29.:30:34.

continued to save the data was not possibly the best data to give you

:30:35.:30:38.

an indication of waiting times. They took away the other explosive,

:30:39.:30:43.

political language. There was criticism of Ed Miliband...

:30:44.:30:56.

I'm sure that the whole house would like to join me in paying tribute to

:30:57.:31:01.

all of those involved in the start of the Tour de France in Britain,

:31:02.:31:05.

this event showcased the best of Yorkshire and the whole that Britain

:31:06.:31:09.

has two offer. I was delighted to see such incredible support

:31:10.:31:13.

throughout the race. This morning I had the meetings with ministerial

:31:14.:31:16.

colleagues and others and I shall have further such meetings later

:31:17.:31:19.

today in addition to my duties in the house. We join with the good

:31:20.:31:26.

news that the parameter has just relayed. Northern Ireland equality

:31:27.:31:30.

commission is threatening legal action against the family-owned

:31:31.:31:33.

bakery, because they would not print a political message on a cake. The

:31:34.:31:41.

requested message was completely against the company 's Christian

:31:42.:31:45.

values, does the Prime Minister agree that so-called equality is now

:31:46.:31:48.

being viewed by many as an oppressive threat to

:31:49.:31:50.

agree that so-called equality is now being viewed by many as an religious

:31:51.:31:51.

freedom and does he further agree that such freedoms should be

:31:52.:31:58.

protected by the introduction of a conscience clause? I'm not aware of

:31:59.:32:01.

the specific case that the honourable gentleman raises, I shall

:32:02.:32:06.

go away and have a look at it, but I do think a commitment to equality in

:32:07.:32:10.

terms of racial equality, terms of equality to those of different

:32:11.:32:14.

sexes, able who have disabilities, or indeed tolerance and equality of

:32:15.:32:17.

people who may have a different sexuality, all of that is a very

:32:18.:32:19.

important part of being British. Mrs Caroline Spelman. CHEERING

:32:20.:32:34.

. Order, I would like the question to be heard, I would like all

:32:35.:32:39.

questions to be heard. With the Prime Minister welcomed the

:32:40.:32:42.

president MP and quiet of the German parliament, who has come to sing a

:32:43.:32:46.

joint concert with our Parliament choir, in Westminster Hall tonight,

:32:47.:32:51.

to commemorate the Centenary of the First World War, and the third

:32:52.:32:59.

Centenary of the monarchy. I would be very happy to welcome this German

:33:00.:33:03.

choir, I suspect after last nights results they will be in rather good

:33:04.:33:06.

voice! LAUGHTER In a serious moment, it is important

:33:07.:33:16.

that we commemorate the key battles and Armistice Day, as we commemorate

:33:17.:33:19.

the key battles and Armistice Day, has become up in Britain we will

:33:20.:33:27.

mark it inappropriate ways. As we come up. -- as we come up. It is

:33:28.:33:31.

important that we learn the lessons of the conflict and we commemorate

:33:32.:33:32.

those that fail. Ed Miliband. I would like to join the Prime

:33:33.:33:44.

Minister in paying tribute to the way that the Tour de France was made

:33:45.:33:47.

such a brilliant success for Britain. I was proud to be watching

:33:48.:33:51.

it on the streets, as I know that he was, I was in Leeds, with hundreds

:33:52.:33:54.

of thousands of people lining the streets. All of us have been

:33:55.:33:59.

horrified by the instances of child abuse that have been uncovered, and

:34:00.:34:02.

the further allegations that have been made, and all of the victims of

:34:03.:34:06.

child abuse are not just owed justice but an apology that it took

:34:07.:34:11.

so long for their cries to be heard. Does the Prime Minister agree that

:34:12.:34:15.

all enquiries, including by the police and by those he has set up,

:34:16.:34:18.

must go wherever the evidence leads them in whatever institution of the

:34:19.:34:23.

country, including our own, to get at what happened? Pro Minister. I

:34:24.:34:28.

absolutely agree with the right honourable gentleman, child abuse is

:34:29.:34:33.

a despicable crime and the victims lived with the horror for the rest

:34:34.:34:36.

of their lives, it is vital that whether it is the two enquiries

:34:37.:34:39.

announced by the Home Secretary or indeed vital police enquiries that

:34:40.:34:43.

are being carried out, that no stone is left unturned. The horror of the

:34:44.:34:48.

Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris cases just show what people were able to

:34:49.:34:53.

get away with. It was almost an occasion that they were committing

:34:54.:34:56.

crimes in plain sight and it took far too long to get to the bottom of

:34:57.:35:00.

what happened and for justice to be done, that is absolutely what this

:35:01.:35:04.

government is looking to achieve. On the issue of 114 missing files from

:35:05.:35:08.

the Home Office, can you clarify when ministers were first informed

:35:09.:35:12.

and what action they took? Do you agree that the review by Peter

:35:13.:35:16.

Wanless cannot simply be into the original review, but it must seek to

:35:17.:35:19.

discover what happened to the files, who knew what, and whether

:35:20.:35:23.

information was covered up, and this review must also have full

:35:24.:35:28.

investigative powers? First of all, Parliamentary question last October

:35:29.:35:33.

that revealed the points about the 2013 enquiry, what I would say: It

:35:34.:35:36.

is absolutely vital that Peter Wanless, who I think is an excellent

:35:37.:35:40.

record in this regard, and will carry out the review in absolutely

:35:41.:35:43.

the right way, that he has all of the powers that he needs. Let's be

:35:44.:35:47.

clear, if he wants more powers, if the enquiry wants to have a greater

:35:48.:35:53.

power and ability, then he can absolutely ask for it. It must go

:35:54.:35:56.

exacting where the evidence leads. We are determined to get to the

:35:57.:36:01.

bottom of what happened. The most important thing in relation to these

:36:02.:36:04.

files, is to clarify what happens to them and why they went missing. I

:36:05.:36:08.

welcome the overarching enquiry, which has been set up by the Home

:36:09.:36:12.

Secretary. Can the prime ministers say more about what the terms of

:36:13.:36:14.

reference about that enquiry will be? Will he consider a very sensible

:36:15.:36:19.

recommendations made today by Peter Wanless, around making the covering

:36:20.:36:24.

up of abuse a criminal offence, and ensuring there is an obligation on

:36:25.:36:27.

institutions to report abuse where it can. Taking the second point

:36:28.:36:33.

first, can we change the law -- should we change the law so that

:36:34.:36:36.

there is a requirement to report and make it a criminal offence not to

:36:37.:36:40.

report? The government is looking at that and both reviews will be able

:36:41.:36:44.

to examine this particular point and advise us accordingly, it may well

:36:45.:36:47.

be time to take that kind of step forward. On the issue of the terms

:36:48.:36:52.

of reference of the wider lessons learned review, we are discussing

:36:53.:36:56.

those at the moment, we are happy to take suggestion from other parties

:36:57.:36:59.

in this house. The main aim as I have said before, you have got a

:37:00.:37:04.

number of enquiries being carried out into specific hospitals

:37:05.:37:07.

including the saddle enquiry, you have the enquiry being taken place

:37:08.:37:12.

inside the BBC, and other enquiries into Welsh children's homes. --

:37:13.:37:16.

including the Jimmy Savile enquiry. What is vital is that government

:37:17.:37:19.

land all of the lessons of the review, and where I think the

:37:20.:37:22.

Elizabeth Butler Sloss review can help is by having a panel of experts

:37:23.:37:25.

who can advise us about all of the things that need to change in these

:37:26.:37:29.

institutions. For instance, the church, the BBC, the NHS, but also,

:37:30.:37:33.

if necessary, in this place and government as well. I welcome what

:37:34.:37:40.

he has said, clearly cultural change is absolutely crucial. Turning to

:37:41.:37:43.

another matter, the health service, last week the Prime Minister said

:37:44.:37:47.

the waiting times in accident and emergency had gone down but within

:37:48.:37:51.

24-hour House of Commons library had called him out. Average waiting

:37:52.:37:55.

times have gone up. Will he now correct the record? What I said last

:37:56.:38:00.

week at prime ministers questions last week is absolutely right and...

:38:01.:38:02.

SHOUTING If he goes on the website of the

:38:03.:38:10.

organisation... If you remember, at the end of prime Minster 's

:38:11.:38:13.

questions there were some points of order, and I said very specifically

:38:14.:38:17.

that the number of people waiting longer than 18, 26 and 52 weeks to

:38:18.:38:21.

begin treatment are lower than they were at any time under the last

:38:22.:38:26.

government. That was directly contradicted by the Shadow Health

:38:27.:38:29.

Secretary, and I want to give the figures to the house now so that

:38:30.:38:32.

people can see that I got my facts right. SHOUTING

:38:33.:38:36.

April, 2010,, 217,000 people waiting over 18 weeks. It is now 186,000,

:38:37.:38:48.

that is Lola! March, 2010, 92,000 people waiting 26 weeks, it is now

:38:49.:38:56.

59,000, Lola. In terms of waiting 52 weeks, 52 weeks for treatment, in

:38:57.:39:03.

April, 2010, 21,000 people waiting that long, now it is 510, that is

:39:04.:39:06.

Lola! -- that is lower. Very clear that he does not want to

:39:07.:39:25.

talk about accident and emergency, where he was called out, let's go to

:39:26.:39:28.

the common-sense definition of what a waiting time is... As always, does

:39:29.:39:34.

not matter how long it takes, the question will be heard. The brain,

:39:35.:39:39.

the yelling, the calculated heckling may as well cease, because we will

:39:40.:39:42.

simply go for as long as is necessary.

:39:43.:39:46.

It is not how long you wait to be assessed, it is the time between

:39:47.:39:51.

arriving at the accident and emergency and leaving! The number of

:39:52.:39:57.

people waiting more than four hours is at its highest level in a decade,

:39:58.:40:01.

why does he not just admit the truth, which everybody in the

:40:02.:40:04.

country knows: People are waiting longer in accident and emergency.

:40:05.:40:09.

The figures I gave last week are correct and published by the health

:40:10.:40:12.

and social care information Centre, the average waiting time, 77

:40:13.:40:17.

minutes, when the Shadow Health Secretary was Health Secretary the

:40:18.:40:22.

average waiting time was now 30 minutes. We can trade statistics

:40:23.:40:26.

across the floor of the house, and I am absolutely clear the health

:40:27.:40:29.

service is getting better, but there is a reason it is getting better, it

:40:30.:40:34.

is because we have taken a couple of big strategic decisions: We said put

:40:35.:40:38.

more money into the NHS, they said that was irresponsible. We said cut

:40:39.:40:43.

the bureaucracy in the NHS, they wanted to keep. -- the average

:40:44.:40:52.

waiting time was 77 minutes when the Shadow Health Secretary was Health

:40:53.:40:55.

Secretary. Now the average waiting time is 30 minutes.

:40:56.:40:56.

CHEERING I would far rather have the Shadow

:40:57.:41:03.

Health Secretary than there are Health Secretary any day of the

:41:04.:41:07.

week! And I will tell you, I will tell you, I will tell you what has

:41:08.:41:11.

happened in the health service, I will tell you what has happened in

:41:12.:41:15.

the health service: Top-down reorganisation that nobody wanted

:41:16.:41:19.

and nobody voted for, and it has diverted billions of pounds away

:41:20.:41:24.

from patient care. The contrast that we see is between the complacent

:41:25.:41:29.

claims of the Prime Minister, and people 's everyday experience.

:41:30.:41:31.

People are spending longer in accident and emergency and hospital

:41:32.:41:36.

accident and emergency is have missed therefore our target for the

:41:37.:41:41.

last 50 weeks in a row. -- accident and emergencys. He pretends things

:41:42.:41:46.

are getting better but patients, NHS staff and the public can see it is

:41:47.:41:49.

getting worse right before their eyes. He still has to defend a man

:41:50.:41:55.

who presided over the mid Staffordshire disgrace, standards of

:41:56.:41:58.

patient care were so bad that patients were drinking out of dirty

:41:59.:42:02.

vases, because of standards in labour's NHS. This is the point: The

:42:03.:42:08.

reason we have been able to cut bureaucracy and the reason we have

:42:09.:42:12.

been able to put more money into the NHS is because we have taken

:42:13.:42:17.

difficult decisions. -- Labour's. Including having a 1% pay cap in the

:42:18.:42:22.

NHS, which Labour said they would support but this week they have

:42:23.:42:25.

decided that they will back strikes instead. Mr Speaker, I have here, I

:42:26.:42:30.

have here the Labour briefing on strikes. SHOUTING

:42:31.:42:34.

It says this, do we support strikes? No. Will we condemn

:42:35.:42:41.

strikes? No. There we have it, that is his leadership summed up in one

:42:42.:42:46.

go, have they got a plan for the NHS? No! Have they got a plan for

:42:47.:42:51.

the economy? No SHOUTING Issey remotely up to the job? No!

:42:52.:42:55.

Is the Prime Minister aware that British airways are to cease the

:42:56.:43:10.

link between Aberdeen and London city, in favour of increased

:43:11.:43:14.

services to already well served outpost of last go, Edinburgh and

:43:15.:43:20.

Dublin? Will he support the campaign to maintain this language is vital

:43:21.:43:23.

for business economy of northern Scotland. I am happy to look into

:43:24.:43:28.

this issue, it is an absolutely vital service, particularly when you

:43:29.:43:32.

consider how strong the economy in north-east Scotland is performing

:43:33.:43:35.

with North Sea oil and gas. I'm happy to look at the issue with him.

:43:36.:43:41.

Jonathan Edwards. Tomorrow I shall be alongside striking teachers,

:43:42.:43:46.

firefighters and nurses, the backbone of local communities. His

:43:47.:43:51.

reported plans to ban public sector workers from joining their neighbour

:43:52.:43:57.

are a silent threat to stop people supporting. I have made it clear

:43:58.:44:00.

that I do not think the strikes are right, I condemn them, it is a pity

:44:01.:44:05.

we do not have so much clarity on the issue from the party opposite or

:44:06.:44:09.

indeed from his party. I would like to give one example, the National

:44:10.:44:13.

union of teachers is proposing a strike based upon a ballot that they

:44:14.:44:17.

had almost two years ago on a very small turnout of their members.

:44:18.:44:22.

Really, is it right to continue with this situation when so many

:44:23.:44:25.

children's education is this situation when so many

:44:26.:44:27.

children's going to be so badly disrupted?

:44:28.:44:35.

Speaking on the opposition backbenchers on December nine, 2002,

:44:36.:44:41.

the prime ministers said "I find the European arrest warrant highly

:44:42.:44:47.

objectionable. " I still think it is highly objectionable. Does the Prime

:44:48.:44:52.

Minister? The point I make, we have made a series of changes to the

:44:53.:44:56.

European arrest warrant, so that you do not have the problem of people

:44:57.:44:59.

being arrested, for instance, for things which are not a crime in this

:45:00.:45:05.

country. Question we have got to ask, we have got to achieve this

:45:06.:45:26.

vast opt out. The head of the civil service says the business case for

:45:27.:45:31.

universal credit has not been signed off. The Department for Work and

:45:32.:45:35.

Pensions says it has. Who is telling the truth? The budget for universal

:45:36.:45:42.

credit has been signed off every year by the Treasury and will

:45:43.:45:46.

continue to do so. The good news is that next year we will have one in

:45:47.:45:52.

eight Jobcentre is rolling out universal credit I thought we had

:45:53.:45:58.

found the party opposite would be in favour of a system that makes work

:45:59.:46:04.

pay, but they have gone back into the whole of being against every

:46:05.:46:08.

single welfare change and everything that is getting this country moving.

:46:09.:46:14.

The safer Internet centre estimates up to 30 websites host UK online

:46:15.:46:23.

pornography images, another form of sexual abuse. Does the Prime

:46:24.:46:26.

Minister agree posting such material has to be recognised for what it is?

:46:27.:46:33.

A criminal, sexual offence against its victims. My honourable friend is

:46:34.:46:37.

absolutely right. This is an appalling offence and a dreadful

:46:38.:46:41.

thing for someone to do and it has criminal intent. I am glad she is

:46:42.:46:47.

championing this caused and looking at the amendment she is suggesting,

:46:48.:46:52.

I hope to take up this cause. We have to make sure we do far more to

:46:53.:47:03.

do deal with porn and Internet porn. If the business case for his

:47:04.:47:09.

universal credit proposals is robust, why is the head of the home

:47:10.:47:13.

civil service saying he has not signed it off? What has happened is

:47:14.:47:19.

universal credit has been signed off in each and every year by the

:47:20.:47:24.

Treasury. I make no apology for the fact we are rolling it out slowly.

:47:25.:47:30.

We have learned the lesson of the last Labour Government, in which he

:47:31.:47:34.

played a prominent part, where tax credits were introduced in one go

:47:35.:47:39.

and was a complete shambles. The Northwest air ambulance has three

:47:40.:47:45.

helicopters and has flown thousands of missions since 1999, one of which

:47:46.:47:50.

saved the life of a friend of mine after a car crash. There are 27 such

:47:51.:47:56.

error services throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. One of them

:47:57.:48:01.

may become a royal air Ambulance Service. Will he paid tribute to

:48:02.:48:08.

those who man the helicopters, saving people throughout the

:48:09.:48:10.

country, and heaped praise on thousands of people who raise funds

:48:11.:48:15.

every week on wet street corners in the United Kingdom to ensure they

:48:16.:48:21.

carry on flying and saving lives? My honourable friend is absolutely

:48:22.:48:26.

right. Our air ambulances provide an invaluable service and we must all

:48:27.:48:30.

pay to read to the men and women who starve them who often have to

:48:31.:48:33.

undertake very difficult landings and take-offs to rescue people and

:48:34.:48:39.

get them to hospital. It is right up and down the country people are

:48:40.:48:42.

giving charitably to fund these vital services. I am sure the Prime

:48:43.:48:50.

Minister will agree that dealing with terrorism and violence and a

:48:51.:48:54.

commitment to a democratic means were fundamental in moving Northern

:48:55.:48:57.

Ireland forward taking us to where we are today. Will the Prime

:48:58.:49:03.

Minister agree that in the Northern Ireland of 2014 Republican threats

:49:04.:49:07.

of violence for political ends must not only be deployed, but that

:49:08.:49:13.

everyone, and governmental bodies in Northern Ireland and the community,

:49:14.:49:17.

must stand up against such threats and commit themselves to fundamental

:49:18.:49:20.

freedoms and supporting democracy and the rule of law? All threats of

:49:21.:49:26.

violence are unacceptable and should be condemned on all sides. What I

:49:27.:49:30.

hope we can achieve in the coming weeks, and it will take compromise

:49:31.:49:35.

and brave decisions on all sides, it is to get the talks process on going

:49:36.:49:40.

again with commitments from his own party, as well as the DLP and Sinn

:49:41.:49:48.

Fein, to discuss these things to make progress. If we do not make

:49:49.:49:53.

progress on this issue, you leave space open for extremists on all

:49:54.:49:57.

sides of the debate to start pushing their ideas, which would be

:49:58.:50:01.

unhelpful for the future of Northern Ireland. The long-term economic plan

:50:02.:50:09.

is working. Unemployment is down a third in the last year and as the

:50:10.:50:18.

summer approaches, I am walking the boundary of my constituency to

:50:19.:50:21.

promote the local area. Can I invite him to join me for part of the walk

:50:22.:50:29.

for a fantastic charity in my constituency? I wish my honourable

:50:30.:50:35.

friend well and he is making an enticing invitation and I am a big

:50:36.:50:40.

fan of what the Peak District has to offer. It is notable in his

:50:41.:50:45.

constituency at the claimant count has fallen by 42% since the election

:50:46.:50:49.

and the youth claimant count has come down by 39% in the last year.

:50:50.:50:55.

We are seeing an economic revival and we need to stick to our plans to

:50:56.:51:01.

get the deficit down, help people with tax cuts, make it easier for

:51:02.:51:06.

firms to employ people and to reform our welfare and immigration systems.

:51:07.:51:11.

That is the plan we will stick to and it is delivering. A 62-year-old

:51:12.:51:18.

man in Eccles, a carer for his wife with Alzheimer's, sought an urgent

:51:19.:51:23.

GP appointment for her. He was told it would be five weeks to see her

:51:24.:51:28.

GP, two weeks to see any GP or he could take to the A If this is

:51:29.:51:33.

the way the NHS tree is the way the NHS trees dementia, does the Prime

:51:34.:51:40.

Minister not agree Labour's plan to give these patients the right to see

:51:41.:51:47.

a GP immediately? There are 1000 more GPs today than there were when

:51:48.:51:52.

I became Prime Minister. We are reintroducing a name to GP for a

:51:53.:51:56.

frail, elderly people, which Labour got rid of. That is one of the

:51:57.:52:00.

reasons, combined with the disastrous GP contract that Labour

:52:01.:52:06.

introduced, there is so much pressure on our accident and

:52:07.:52:10.

emergency system. We must learn from the mistakes Labour made rather than

:52:11.:52:15.

repeat them all over again. Is the Prime Minister aware that 16 to

:52:16.:52:18.

18-year-oldss in Northumberland who may live 15 miles from further

:52:19.:52:24.

education or 20 miles from high school are facing charges up to

:52:25.:52:29.

several thousand pounds in charges to get education because the

:52:30.:52:33.

Labour-controlled council has reversed the support given by the

:52:34.:52:36.

previous Liberal Democrat administration? Will he deployed

:52:37.:52:46.

this decision and see what central Government can do to promote fairer

:52:47.:52:58.

access to education. Responsibility for education and training rests

:52:59.:53:01.

with local authorities and clearly there is local authority have made

:53:02.:53:08.

this decision. We have introduced a ?180 million bursary fund to support

:53:09.:53:11.

the most disadvantaged pupils and that is something his council can

:53:12.:53:16.

make the most of. But this is another example of the fact that

:53:17.:53:22.

labour costs you more. Mr Speaker, it is estimated that each day 179

:53:23.:53:29.

British girls are at risk of being subjected to FGM, joining a total of

:53:30.:53:35.

170,000 in the United Kingdom who have been cut. Next week he hosts a

:53:36.:53:41.

summit on this issue. Does he agree with me that FGM is not cultural, it

:53:42.:53:48.

is criminal? It is not tribal, it is torture. Will he please read the

:53:49.:53:51.

report of the select committee published next Thursday, implement

:53:52.:53:57.

it in full so that we can eradicate this horrendous abuse from our

:53:58.:54:02.

country? Can I commend the honourable gentleman for the work of

:54:03.:54:05.

the Home Affairs Select Committee has done on this issue. This is a

:54:06.:54:09.

brutal, appalling practice which should have no place in the world

:54:10.:54:14.

and certainly no place in Britain and it is appalling that people

:54:15.:54:18.

living in our country are being subjected to this practice. I will

:54:19.:54:23.

study the report closely. The whole aim of the conference is to make

:54:24.:54:28.

sure these two practices of early, enforced marriage and female genital

:54:29.:54:31.

mutilation are wiped out on our planet. Does my right honourable

:54:32.:54:39.

friend accept it would be totally unacceptable to have a statutory

:54:40.:54:44.

limitation on overseas aid without having a similar statutory provision

:54:45.:54:48.

covering defence expenditure to guarantee our NATO commitments? What

:54:49.:54:53.

I would say is we are in the happy position of this country of meeting

:54:54.:54:57.

the 2% spending on defence which NATO members are meant to undertake

:54:58.:55:02.

and when we hold the NATO conference in Wales in September we should be

:55:03.:55:06.

encouraging other countries to do the same and to meet some of the new

:55:07.:55:11.

park that targets for spending on new equipment that can be used in

:55:12.:55:15.

NATO operations. We can also be proud of the fact we are meeting the

:55:16.:55:22.

promise we made our spending 0.7% on overseas aid which is saving lives

:55:23.:55:27.

all over the world. I would not divorce it from our defence spending

:55:28.:55:30.

because the money we spent in places like Somalia, Nigeria or Pakistan is

:55:31.:55:37.

about reducing the pressures of asylum and immigration and

:55:38.:55:41.

terrorism, making our world safer. That is what our defence budget

:55:42.:55:45.

should be about and it is what our aid budget is about as well.

:55:46.:55:52.

Conditions like rheumatoid arthritis mean patients can be out of work for

:55:53.:55:58.

years if they do not get the right treatment and we should look at the

:55:59.:56:02.

wider benefits rather than the initial cost of that treatment. I

:56:03.:56:08.

agree. My understanding is that work is carried out and I will look at

:56:09.:56:15.

the particular condition she raises. Businesses across Lincolnshire

:56:16.:56:21.

report growing conference that confidence in growing order books,

:56:22.:56:24.

highly skilled workers benefiting from the tax cuts this Government

:56:25.:56:30.

has introduced and hard-working apprentices enjoying opportunities

:56:31.:56:34.

they did not have a few years ago. Does the Prime Minister agree the

:56:35.:56:38.

Shadow Chancellor's plans of borrowing yet more money, whilst

:56:39.:56:42.

heaving tax on businesses and making it more expensive for people to hire

:56:43.:56:51.

workers is an economic scam? We have got to stick to the plan and that

:56:52.:56:56.

plan involves training young people and we are on track to hit 2 million

:56:57.:57:00.

apprentices trained under this Government. The worst thing to do

:57:01.:57:05.

would be to start spending and borrowing and taxing more, which are

:57:06.:57:09.

the proposals of the opposition. With the Prime Minister explain why

:57:10.:57:15.

it is the only people who feel there are no problems in the National

:57:16.:57:18.

Health Service are members of the Conservative Party? What I would say

:57:19.:57:26.

is every single health system are right across the developed world is

:57:27.:57:29.

facing huge challenges and pressures. Pressures of an ageing

:57:30.:57:36.

population, new drugs and treatments coming on stream and the pressures

:57:37.:57:39.

of children surviving with conditions that need to be treated

:57:40.:57:43.

throughout their lives. How do we respond? Our response has been to

:57:44.:57:51.

fund the health service and protected from cars and to reform

:57:52.:57:55.

the health service so there are more doctors and more nurses. The figures

:57:56.:58:02.

speak for themselves because you can see more people being treated. 40

:58:03.:58:07.

million more people are getting GP appointments. It is because we have

:58:08.:58:12.

taken the difficult decisions Labour have not taken in Wales and that is

:58:13.:58:16.

why in Wales at UC longer waiting lists and real problems with the

:58:17.:58:24.

NHS. Should taxpayer money be used to gather information on MPs which

:58:25.:58:27.

is then retained by a Chief Whip or shredded? If my honourable friend is

:58:28.:58:36.

referring to the situation that took place in the Welsh assembly which I

:58:37.:58:42.

was reading about overnight, that seems to be a worrying development.

:58:43.:58:45.

If he is referring to something else, he could perhaps write to me

:58:46.:58:53.

and I will get back to him. Would the Prime Minister look into the

:58:54.:58:57.

case of a young mother in my constituency who has a significant

:58:58.:59:02.

spinal injury that has left her unable to walk? Her GB has

:59:03.:59:04.

spinal injury that has left her unable to walk? Her GB referred her

:59:05.:59:07.

for an urgent appointment with a neurosurgeon. Could the Prime

:59:08.:59:11.

Minister explain why urgent on his watch means a four-week wait lying

:59:12.:59:17.

in pain? I will look at the KC raises and I am happy to look at

:59:18.:59:21.

individual cases, but the figures quoted earlier demonstrate when you

:59:22.:59:28.

look at people waiting 18 weeks, 26 weeks or 52 weeks, they are lower

:59:29.:59:34.

now than at any time under the last Labour Government. I am very happy

:59:35.:59:41.

to look at the individual case. Is the Prime Minister aware that since

:59:42.:59:45.

2012 when he made his promise to increase access to innovative

:59:46.:59:52.

radiotherapy for cancer patients, the number has decreased in some

:59:53.:59:57.

hospitals by 70% and state-of-the-art machines are lying

:59:58.:00:01.

idle because NHS England will not allow doctors to use them? Can I ask

:00:02.:00:08.

him to meet with me and other campaigners like Lawrence Dallaglio

:00:09.:00:15.

to discuss this scandal? I read the report that Lawrence Dallaglio was

:00:16.:00:18.

referring to over the weekend and I am happy to meet with her and him to

:00:19.:00:23.

discuss this. We have introduced the Cancer Drugs Fund which is also for

:00:24.:00:28.

innovative treatment. I know there have been changes in the way

:00:29.:00:32.

radiotherapy has been carried out and new technology that is being

:00:33.:00:36.

used, which may be part of the explanation. Jobs growth Wales has

:00:37.:00:43.

been a huge success in tackling youth unemployment outperforming

:00:44.:00:49.

similar schemes across the United Kingdom. Will the Prime Minister

:00:50.:00:53.

join me in congratulating Welsh businesses and enterprises, the

:00:54.:00:58.

Welsh Government and the young people of Wales who have made this a

:00:59.:01:04.

success? In doing so he can end his agenda of attacking Wales at every

:01:05.:01:08.

opportunity and he might even get a welcome in the hillside! I want to

:01:09.:01:13.

do everything I can to support economic recovery in Wales and that

:01:14.:01:18.

is why, for instance, in September when the NATO conference comes to

:01:19.:01:24.

Wales, an initiative launched by me, there will be a very strong welcome

:01:25.:01:28.

in the valleys and this will be the first time that a serving American

:01:29.:01:34.

president has ever been to Wales. We are doing everything we can to help

:01:35.:01:39.

business in Wales employ more people and grow the economy.

:01:40.:01:52.

On Monday I hosted a meeting in Birmingham to mark the agreement of

:01:53.:01:58.

a great deal which will see over ?350 million invested in Birmingham

:01:59.:02:03.

and Solihull. It will help to create 19,000 jobs and generate up to ?110

:02:04.:02:09.

million from local partners and private investment. With employment

:02:10.:02:17.

is just 1.5% and down by over 28,000 across the whole region, does this

:02:18.:02:23.

not demonstrate the model bolstered by those growth funds is working?

:02:24.:02:29.

But how does my right honourable friend plan to build on this success

:02:30.:02:35.

and encourage the most ambitious local enterprise partnerships to

:02:36.:02:39.

promote the local economy still further? As I said at the meeting,

:02:40.:02:47.

the growth deal is a very big step forward for Birmingham and the West

:02:48.:02:51.

Midlands and will result in more jobs and investment. It will see new

:02:52.:02:56.

railway stations and transport links built, but we need to be more

:02:57.:02:59.

ambitious in terms of the money we need to find in central Government

:03:00.:03:05.

to support these schemes. I also hope local councils will look at

:03:06.:03:09.

every piece of unused Brownfield land and we will look at every piece

:03:10.:03:13.

of extra development they put on the table. It is offering this region

:03:14.:03:30.

just ?10 ahead 37 days before the election and it is too late. You can

:03:31.:03:40.

tell the difference between this gentleman and any other issues. He

:03:41.:03:45.

might want to explain why the leader of Birmingham City Council, the

:03:46.:03:50.

Labour leader, said this is good news for Birmingham. A number of

:03:51.:03:56.

major projects will be accelerated. Transport routes will be approved

:03:57.:03:59.

and other money will go into site development. He needs a bit more

:04:00.:04:09.

time with this gentleman. Tomorrow Britain faces damage and disruption

:04:10.:04:13.

from strikes, none backed by a majority of union members. Since the

:04:14.:04:18.

Right Honourable member became leader of the Labour Party he has

:04:19.:04:24.

taken 30 million from them and will not stand up to that union barons.

:04:25.:04:33.

Will he votes to stop this licensed sabotage? My honourable friend makes

:04:34.:04:39.

a very good point and the time has come to look at setting thresholds

:04:40.:04:44.

in strike ballots. I mentioned the NUT strike earlier. I note they are

:04:45.:04:49.

paid for by the unions, but they might want to listen to this because

:04:50.:04:53.

it will disrupt our children's' education. The ballot took place in

:04:54.:05:01.

2012, it is based on a 27% turnout. How can it be right for our

:05:02.:05:05.

children's education to be disrupted by trade unions acting in that way.

:05:06.:05:11.

It is time to legislate and it will be in the Conservative manifesto.

:05:12.:06:06.

One viewer has said that it was good to see proper discourse but soon it

:06:07.:06:11.

descended once again into heckling. One point was picked to try to score

:06:12.:06:16.

points on whereas waiting times have gone down in all other areas. On the

:06:17.:06:23.

first three questions, on a and A, three direct questions from Ed

:06:24.:06:26.

Miliband, waffle and brother from David Cameron, and pantomime time on

:06:27.:06:34.

the Tory backbenches. -- on a and E. Teflon Dave dodges another question,

:06:35.:06:38.

according to one viewer. Stop this statistical nonsense, make it a

:06:39.:06:43.

worthwhile exercise. Another viewer, once again, David Cameron answering

:06:44.:06:47.

a question nobody has asked. Isn't that the point of statistical rows!

:06:48.:06:53.

And not for the first time. Broadly supportive Labour leader, on the

:06:54.:06:56.

enquiries into this historic sex abuse case. Did we learn anything

:06:57.:07:07.

new from one -- from what the Prime Minister told us? The big

:07:08.:07:11.

overarching enquiry, looking at why institutions including the BBC

:07:12.:07:15.

failed to deal with sexual abuse, even when some people were alerted

:07:16.:07:20.

about it, the Prime Minister seems like he does not see it as a way of

:07:21.:07:24.

enquiring into the allegations that there was a conspiracy or a cover up

:07:25.:07:28.

in the establishment, meaning there were paedophiles in high places in

:07:29.:07:32.

politics in both the Commons and the Lords, in the judiciary and

:07:33.:07:35.

elsewhere. Does not sound to me like he thinks it is that sort of

:07:36.:07:39.

enquiry. The reason I focus on that, that is critical to whether Butler

:07:40.:07:48.

Sloss gains that confidence. If she is looking at the legal framework,

:07:49.:07:51.

the culture, she can easily say that the fact that her brother was the

:07:52.:07:55.

Attorney General may not have any relevance. If she is expected to

:07:56.:08:00.

hear from the victims, then it seems to me there are real questions to

:08:01.:08:11.

ask. The MP who has campaigned on this, Simon Danczuk, successor to

:08:12.:08:17.

Cyril Smith in Rochdale, he has questions as well. To times of

:08:18.:08:28.

waiting lists, we will try to untangle them. Waiting lists to get

:08:29.:08:32.

in for an operation, a procedure, some kind of treatment, and there

:08:33.:08:38.

are waiting times, if you go to the accident and emergency. Let's take

:08:39.:08:42.

accident and emergency first, can we accept this trust that there are

:08:43.:08:48.

more people waiting over four hours for a and E treatment than their

:08:49.:09:01.

were before? It has almost trebled since 2009.

:09:02.:09:14.

There are more people going to a and E. Record numbers, as a result of

:09:15.:09:22.

the health service. More people waiting. What we saw at PMQ 's, we

:09:23.:09:25.

had a similar debate at last weeks PMQ 's, is a battle over different

:09:26.:09:30.

types of statistics, by Mr mention the statistic, that times have

:09:31.:09:35.

reduced from 77 minutes down to 30 minutes... -- PMQ s. What I will say

:09:36.:09:49.

is that what people will be looking at is what is going on in the local

:09:50.:09:53.

area, in terms of my local area and the King Lynn hospital, times are

:09:54.:09:58.

going down, people are getting better service and fewer complaints.

:09:59.:10:03.

The proof is in the pudding. Hold on, hold on, these figures are quite

:10:04.:10:07.

clear, these figures are your government figures. On major a and

:10:08.:10:17.

E, it has doubled, there is three types of a and E, on the majors,

:10:18.:10:31.

overall it has trouble. -- trebled. -- A

:10:32.:10:34.

The last figures I have seen, they are better than what we have now.

:10:35.:10:51.

Four weeks ago I went into A I'm trying... You are going to give me

:10:52.:10:55.

an anecdote. It took five and a half hours for me to have an x-ray. That

:10:56.:11:01.

is what people are experiencing. We all have individual anecdote,

:11:02.:11:04.

somebody can come and say something different. The point I'm trying to

:11:05.:11:09.

make... The percentage in the most recent figures for June, at major

:11:10.:11:19.

A centres that waited less than four hours, 95%, the difference has

:11:20.:11:24.

been the increasing number of people going to accident and emergency.

:11:25.:11:28.

When you go in you can get assessed, you get treated, both of those are

:11:29.:11:33.

different times. It is the time going in and how long it takes you

:11:34.:11:36.

to go in and come out the other side. I come from an accident prone

:11:37.:11:40.

family, we are constantly there! LAUGHTER

:11:41.:11:44.

You are the one! You are the one! I knew there was a cause! I was there

:11:45.:11:49.

for five and half hours. People watching this, you can trade

:11:50.:11:54.

numbers, but... That is what Ed Miliband was doing with the Prime

:11:55.:11:57.

Minister. When you try to hold the government to account you trade

:11:58.:12:01.

numbers, it gets lost, people only hear numbers. What they know is what

:12:02.:12:05.

they know. What they know is what they have experienced themselves,

:12:06.:12:08.

people are experiencing longer waits at accident and emergency. I do not

:12:09.:12:15.

think that is true. It is not because more people are falling off

:12:16.:12:19.

their bicycles. Excepting your family. On both of these exchanges,

:12:20.:12:25.

this week and last week, Ed Miliband has failed to score. That is because

:12:26.:12:30.

the Prime Minister makes up statistics as he goes along. I am

:12:31.:12:33.

trying to look at the figures, instead of by Minister D that's

:12:34.:12:38.

macro instead of politicians trading insult to do not know the figures.

:12:39.:12:44.

Can we accept that the figures show that there are more people waiting

:12:45.:12:46.

more than four hours for accident and emergency and there were when

:12:47.:12:52.

the government came to power? -- I'm trying to look at the figures,

:12:53.:12:57.

instead of politicians who do not know the figures arguing and trading

:12:58.:13:02.

insults. I trust the figures, I shall take your word for it. The

:13:03.:13:06.

second kind of waiting time, the wait for an operation. Do you accept

:13:07.:13:13.

that the numbers waiting for operations on the 18, 26 and 52

:13:14.:13:18.

weeks, has come down? Yes, no problem with that. It also depends

:13:19.:13:26.

upon what you look at. 18, 26, 52... The question, what is it they are

:13:27.:13:33.

waiting for? It depends... That is true of any government. Knee

:13:34.:13:38.

operations and hip operations, real-life experiences that people

:13:39.:13:41.

have got to wait longer to have an operation that key is a very painful

:13:42.:13:44.

condition. Will use a prize that when your government left power,

:13:45.:13:49.

21,000 people were waiting more than 52 weeks for an operation? -- were

:13:50.:13:54.

you surprised? And that is now down to 500. I was not aware of that, it

:13:55.:13:59.

would be interesting to know what kind of operations we are talking

:14:00.:14:02.

about. With that suggest the Tories are not making quite as big a mess

:14:03.:14:07.

of the NHS as you have suggested? They are making a mess, they have

:14:08.:14:11.

spent billions of pounds on top reorganisation they did not need.

:14:12.:14:14.

They are failing to keep up with demand. On this other waiting list

:14:15.:14:21.

I've now talking about, although, as the Prime Minister said, only 180

:14:22.:14:26.

6000, 186,000 people had to wait more than 18 weeks, there are now 3

:14:27.:14:34.

million people, in the 18 week category. 3 million people waiting

:14:35.:14:38.

for a procedure. It has doubled in recent years. The NHS is now under a

:14:39.:14:42.

lot of pressure, a lot more than before. What we know is a record

:14:43.:14:48.

number of patients are using the NHS and we are seeing growing figures in

:14:49.:14:51.

accident and emergency and this is the whole point of what we have done

:14:52.:14:55.

in terms of critical commissioning, making more efficient use of

:14:56.:14:59.

services, making sure services are redesigned to fit the modern age,

:15:00.:15:02.

making sure more things can be accessed. It is not more efficient

:15:03.:15:06.

if you have to go to accident and emergency because you cannot get an

:15:07.:15:10.

appointment with your GP, you can say it is more efficient but it is

:15:11.:15:16.

not correct! Can I finish my point? You are talking nonsense. Increased

:15:17.:15:18.

doctors, decreased managers, that is -- increased doctors, decreased

:15:19.:15:26.

managers, that is what we have got. And all of these figures are

:15:27.:15:35.

English, remember. both of them. There was a figure

:15:36.:15:54.

used by David Cameron last week, which he repeated this week, which

:15:55.:16:00.

is a misleading figure. It is not untrue, they can be not very

:16:01.:16:04.

helpful, not the right way to look at things. The phrase they used was

:16:05.:16:10.

simplistic which was taken down. I will agree with her on that. I agree

:16:11.:16:17.

with Liz Truss that despite having that ammunition, Ed Miliband did not

:16:18.:16:23.

score a political point. In the test of the crucible of Prime Minister 's

:16:24.:16:27.

questions, having that ammunition you would expect him to do well and

:16:28.:16:33.

interestingly he did not do it. It is quite striking about the big

:16:34.:16:39.

politics of the NHS, there is a big opportunity for a big opportunity

:16:40.:16:43.

for Labour with it, they founded it in the first place and there are

:16:44.:16:46.

increasing warnings the NHS will run out of money whoever is in power.

:16:47.:16:52.

David Cameron seems to be able to insulated himself in the Commons by

:16:53.:16:57.

pointing at Andy Burnham and saying, you used to run it and it is a

:16:58.:17:01.

mess, and pointing at the Welsh assembly saying it is a mess. Policy

:17:02.:17:08.

is very important. You and I know if you talk to experts, they genuinely

:17:09.:17:13.

believe there is a funding crisis. The taxpayer will have to give more

:17:14.:17:18.

money or we all as consumers of health will have to pay directly

:17:19.:17:21.

through charges, some four of insurance. The King's fund is quite

:17:22.:17:28.

clear there is a major problem coming in 2016. And beyond that.

:17:29.:17:36.

What people forget, the statistic I remember is the era of cuts in the

:17:37.:17:42.

NHS, Margaret Thatcher increased spending on the NHS by more than 3%

:17:43.:17:50.

above inflation. I think that was too little, but under both Tory and

:17:51.:17:55.

Labour plans, it is not going up at all. Spreading your wisdom and

:17:56.:18:07.

diplomacy across the studio. Is that your next job? We have to

:18:08.:18:13.

move on. See you next week for the final one. Of course.

:18:14.:18:18.

Remember the champagne-filled days of cool Britannia where pop stars

:18:19.:18:21.

were invited through the doors of Number Ten?

:18:22.:18:23.

Well, last week our Dave had his own chill out in honour

:18:24.:18:26.

Journalist Tanya Gold thinks that, in her words,

:18:27.:18:29.

a "gruel Britannia" is the last thing our political system needs.

:18:30.:18:32.

In our soapbox this week, which contains flash photography,

:18:33.:18:34.

Politics is show business for ugly people, so the saying goes, but

:18:35.:19:00.

should their worlds ever meet? I think politicians should resist the

:19:01.:19:06.

temptation of courting people who trivialise politics. His main

:19:07.:19:09.

interest was a Champagne supernova in the sky, but Tony Blair thought

:19:10.:19:15.

it significant to court with this. How we do not miss the vapid days of

:19:16.:19:21.

cool Britannia. Oh, it seems we do. Last week a party was thrown to

:19:22.:19:27.

honour the entertainment industry. A gaggle of celebrities gathered to

:19:28.:19:29.

hear the Prime Minister say to them, you make your can be so proud. Why

:19:30.:19:38.

not the fishing industry? Celebrity is trivial and when it touches

:19:39.:19:42.

politics, that seems trivial as well. Of course, the mix of

:19:43.:19:49.

celebrity and politics is not new, but it is surprising politicians

:19:50.:19:53.

have not learned their lesson. Another visitor to Mrs Thatcher was

:19:54.:19:58.

Jimmy Savile and he had many holidays at Chequers during which he

:19:59.:20:03.

used to write, in case of national emergency, phone Jimmy Savile, on

:20:04.:20:09.

every notepad in the house. Sometimes the celebrity becomes

:20:10.:20:13.

genuinely politicised. Russell Brown believes abolishing democracy will

:20:14.:20:20.

make Britain a greater place. His narcissism is nothing strange, but

:20:21.:20:24.

politicians should perhaps do better and recognise it. The death of

:20:25.:20:30.

naivete and fake television niceness is not a terrible thing. Why should

:20:31.:20:35.

we exalt only creatures who speak to children in children's words. Clear

:20:36.:20:41.

them away completely. Tanya Gold is with us now. Is the

:20:42.:20:45.

attraction between politicians and celebrities mutual? Sometimes. For

:20:46.:20:56.

instance in 20 first 2002 at a Labour conference Kevin Spacey

:20:57.:21:01.

appeared. Last week at the Tory party there were Ronnie Corbett,

:21:02.:21:07.

Cilla Black and Bruce Forsyth. I think sometimes it is. Politicians

:21:08.:21:13.

like celebrities because they think the electorate like celebrities and

:21:14.:21:16.

they think it makes them look glamorous. Personally I would rather

:21:17.:21:22.

my politician looked effective. Is narcissism at the centre of it? I

:21:23.:21:29.

think a lot of celebrities have a tendency towards narcissism, you

:21:30.:21:37.

have to think you can headline Glastonbury and solve world

:21:38.:21:42.

problems. Not everybody is a narcissist, but a lot of celebrities

:21:43.:21:48.

are. Do you think if Ed Miliband comes Prime Minister he should spend

:21:49.:21:52.

no time at all with celebrities and a lot more time with fishing

:21:53.:21:56.

representatives are people from the rail industry? I wish the world was

:21:57.:22:01.

like that, I think that is how it should be, but sometimes in order to

:22:02.:22:06.

get a message through, using a celebrity happens. We saw it

:22:07.:22:22.

recently using rape in war. Angelina Jolie. Yes, but I would like to

:22:23.:22:30.

think it would bring as much publicity if it had only been

:22:31.:22:35.

William Hay, that it wouldn't have. Is Angelina Jolie trivial or does

:22:36.:22:38.

she bring something to the cause? I thought she has done a tremendous

:22:39.:22:45.

job and it has made a difference. Firstly, the creative industries are

:22:46.:22:50.

incredibly important to our economy. We had one of the biggest creative

:22:51.:22:56.

sectors than virtually any country in the world. Last week we held a

:22:57.:23:03.

reception for maths teachers. The reality is the press are not as

:23:04.:23:12.

interested in them. Boris Johnson has had time to meet with Will

:23:13.:23:18.

Smith, but he has not been to a food bank? Has he got his priorities

:23:19.:23:23.

wrong? I do not have any knowledge of Boris Johnson's diary, but

:23:24.:23:30.

politicians work with all people across all groups. The point about

:23:31.:23:33.

the creative industries reception is the way it was built up by the press

:23:34.:23:39.

because the press were interested in celebrities. Other things are

:23:40.:23:44.

equally as important, but they do not get attention. Sometimes you

:23:45.:23:46.

need to use celebrities to get attention. Professor Brian Cox is a

:23:47.:23:52.

fantastic physicist and we want more kids to do physics and that is a

:23:53.:23:57.

good way to get that message across to young people. Celebrities can be

:23:58.:24:01.

helpful and they are an inevitability. Should they not touch

:24:02.:24:06.

them with a barge pole? At the same time as William Hague was appearing

:24:07.:24:11.

with Angelina Jolie he was a member of Government decimating support

:24:12.:24:17.

centres for victims of rape in Britain. I thought she was being

:24:18.:24:24.

used. Imagine our delight when an ambitious Tory minister Matt Hancock

:24:25.:24:27.

was snapped this week ringing in front of graffiti calling for his

:24:28.:24:34.

boss to be sacked. And after Ed Miliband's sandwich gaffe, we could

:24:35.:24:38.

not resist trailing through our awkward photos of the political

:24:39.:24:43.

elite. We start with Mike Hancock himself posing for total politics

:24:44.:24:44.

magazine. Fantastic. With us now is a man who

:24:45.:26:04.

has tried to keep politicians out of pictures, former spin doctor Lance

:26:05.:26:09.

Price. We have only got a couple of minutes, but this would never have

:26:10.:26:13.

happened in your day. It happens and all governments and all

:26:14.:26:17.

politicians. You have to keep an eye on them. There are some that you can

:26:18.:26:26.

see which were avoidable. There are others like Nigel Farage with the

:26:27.:26:28.

microphone is the way the camera chose to take the picture. You can

:26:29.:26:35.

do all kinds of things. If you take enough pictures of somebody, you can

:26:36.:26:40.

make them look stupid. It is a bit more difficult with TV pictures.

:26:41.:26:47.

Iain Duncan Smith, when he was Tory leader, they used to cover the fire

:26:48.:26:55.

signs and the exit signs. We used to do that for other people. Would you

:26:56.:27:02.

have put Gordon Brown or Tony Blair on a boat? They look comfortable.

:27:03.:27:08.

You make these things a bit more interesting. You try to make people

:27:09.:27:14.

look more human. I put Tony Blair on a Tube train by himself trying to

:27:15.:27:20.

look like an ordinary member of the public. He was hanging on looking

:27:21.:27:23.

completely stupid and it was a disaster. Did he ask for the

:27:24.:27:30.

refreshment card? We love politicians, but they are not

:27:31.:27:37.

ordinary folk. One of Parliamentary candidate to eat a photograph which

:27:38.:27:41.

he had a photograph taken with four lady councillors and it said by four

:27:42.:27:51.

get one free on the sign behind. If you think of the banana and David

:27:52.:27:56.

Miliband there was he at that point, and I am a big fan of his, but it

:27:57.:28:02.

was a mistake to get himself into, he was putting himself forward as a

:28:03.:28:05.

potential leader of the Labour Party. When he should have been

:28:06.:28:10.

looking prime ministerial he was walking down the street with a

:28:11.:28:15.

banana. That was avoidable. Sometimes politicians do it on

:28:16.:28:19.

purpose. John Prescott was vying with Peter Mandelson when Tony Blair

:28:20.:28:28.

went on holiday over who was at the helm and he got a photo taken with a

:28:29.:28:32.

crab. Guess the year, hit the button. This is the winner. Thank

:28:33.:28:45.

you to all of our guests. The one o'clock News is on BBC One and we

:28:46.:28:49.

will be back here tomorrow at noon with the Daily Politics.

:28:50.:28:54.

The big story is the public sector strikes.

:28:55.:29:09.

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