15/07/2014 Daily Politics


15/07/2014

Jo Coburn presents the latest news from Westminster, including who's in and who's out after the cabinet reshuffle.


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Transcript


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David Cameron's been a busy bee this morning conducting the most

:00:35.:00:40.

far-reaching Government reshuffle since he became Prime Minister.

:00:41.:00:42.

Phillip Hammond is the new Foreign Secretary, taking over from William

:00:43.:00:46.

The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, is moved to Chief Whip.

:00:47.:00:55.

There'll be more women around the Cabinet table.

:00:56.:00:58.

A long time coming some would say, but are departing male ministers

:00:59.:01:01.

The European Commission's also been dishing out jobs this morning.

:01:02.:01:08.

It's got a new president, Jean Claude Juncker.

:01:09.:01:11.

And "mistaken and dangerous" or " an act of kindness"?

:01:12.:01:15.

The House of Lords debates assisted dying on Friday.

:01:16.:01:18.

We'll be talking to the man behind the Bill, Lord Falconer.

:01:19.:01:26.

And with us for the duration is Sir Paul Coleridge, who was

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a high court judge in the Marriage Division until just recently.

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Now, without further ado, let's get down to the nuts and bolts of David

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Cameron's reshuffle - the most extensive since he took office.

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It's already been dubbed the cull of the white, middle-aged man, or the

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So let's have a look at who's out and who's in.

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The big news last night was that William Hague is leaving the

:02:00.:02:02.

He is going to be the new Leader of the House of Commons before he steps

:02:03.:02:08.

The current Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, will replace

:02:09.:02:15.

The new Defence Secretary will be Michael Fallon,

:02:16.:02:19.

who is promoted from his job at the Department for Business.

:02:20.:02:22.

The other big news today is that Michael Gove is moving

:02:23.:02:24.

from the Department for Education to become the new Chief Whip.

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Nicky Morgan, currently a Treasury Minister, will replace Mr Gove

:02:29.:02:31.

Another big move is Liz Truss, who is promoted to Cabinet

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The Prime Minister has also announced that Lord Hill,

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the current Leader of the Lords, will be his nomination

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Let's talk to our Deputy Political Editor, James

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James, this is far more radical and dramatic than you, or I or anyone

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expected. Ye, it is the Prime Minister has gone to make a bold

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statement here. Most reshoveles fairly percolate out of Westminster

:03:10.:03:13.

as people sit here and say - somebody replaced by somebody else I

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didn't know. This is radical enough to breakthrough and say - there is

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real change going on. A new Foreign Secretary. Will that bring any

:03:21.:03:24.

change in foreign policy, particularly in Europe? William

:03:25.:03:28.

Hague being replaced by Philip Hammond the former Defence

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Secretary. Philip Hammond last a track record of being eurosceptic.

:03:32.:03:36.

He has in the past allowed the idea to go twha he, if he had a chance,

:03:37.:03:42.

if there was a referendum now, that he would be tempted to vote no and

:03:43.:03:46.

we should leave the European Union. We have Michael Gove leaving

:03:47.:03:48.

education to become Chief Whip. Fascinating. Number Ten insisting it

:03:49.:03:54.

is not a demotion. But he is not a full men of the Cabinet. He will be

:03:55.:03:59.

paid less. His aim is to communicate the Government's policies over the

:04:00.:04:02.

next ten months. What does it mean for education? Education has been a

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big message for the Government. They have been driving the reforms

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through, primarily because of Michael Gove's energy and passion

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for that job. Has it now been a question that that drive, that

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passion was beginning to look arrogant and perhaps was urning it

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off some voters, particularly those in the education world - was turning

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off some voters. And parents. Number Ten insist the education reforms

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will carry on. A lot of change. The interesting question is what they

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will do in the new posts? Let's pick up on that. You mentioned Michael

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Gove, Chief Whip, William Hague, stepping down as Foreign Secretary,

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becoming Leader of the House. Is this the case of senior figures

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being released now because this Government is on election footing?

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We have just got the latest arrival. Penny Morden who appeared. You heard

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it there - in the programme called Splash. She did very well when she

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gave a speech just after the Queen's Speech a few weeks ago and the Prime

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Minister was known to favour her. We expect her to be another of those

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women who will make gains. The interesting question, as you say,

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Jo, is the Government now on election footing. The answer is,

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yes, it is. It has been for sometime. William Hague and Michael

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Gove have been freed up from busy jobs to be able to get on the -

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Gove have been freed up from busy the Prime Minister's official

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spokesman, not even the political spokesman, not even the political

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Service spokesman said -- you can expect to see an awful lot of

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Michael goal of on radio and television channels in the months

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ahead. The interesting question is - how else are they going to reshape

:05:33.:05:37.

the Government? Will they have a huge increase in women? All the

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middle ranking ministers have coming in to get their jobs now. I think we

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will get a very large number of them women by the end. As you say, it is

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about presentation, it is about the Government renewing itself in

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office. It is something all governments try to do. They try to

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change the personnel. The question is, will it work this time. We will

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come back to you in a few minutes tripe. Maybe more face also have

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gone in and out of the famous black door behind you. There has been

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plenty more activity overnight and this morning at Cabinet level.

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the current Chief Whip, Sir George Young, Minister without

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Portfolio, Ken Clarke, Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson

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Other big names are also out - Attorney General, Dominic Grieve,

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Leader of the Commons, Andrew Lansley, Universities Minister,

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David Willetts, International Development Minister, Alan Duncan,

:06:37.:06:37.

Also leaving Government are Oliver Heald, Nick Hurd,

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Andrew Robathan, Stephen Hammond, Greg Barker and Hugh Robertson.

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Esther McVey stays as Employment Minister

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The new Attorney General is Jeremy Wright, currently

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Stephen Crabb is promoted to Cabinet as the new Secretary of State

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Greg Clark is the new Minister for Science and Universities

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And Matt Hancock is also promoted to Energy Minister

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Let's go back to James Landale in Downing Street.

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We will go back there in a few minutes' time. We saw before we left

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him there, Penny Mordent. MP, who went into number Ten and I think

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following on her footsteps was Amber Rudd. I think we can talk to James

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who is in position outside number Ten. What do you think of the charge

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that this is the cull of white middle-aged, men, is it fair? It is

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an apt description. A lot of white, middle-aged men have lost their

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jobs, who have been Conservativing in the Cabinet, and have lost their

:07:59.:08:02.

jobs. Most have gone relatively gracefully. What will happen now, is

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one or two of them who are now seething behind closed doors will

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wait for their moment to explode and write an article for a Sunday

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newspaper or give an interview in which they will express their

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concern about how they were sacked unfairly and it is unfair. Basically

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a lot of these people have done reasonable jobs. The Prime Minister

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does not think they have done a bad job. He simply needs to renew the

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Government. It is always a tough call to make. Those MPs, those

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ministers who lost their jobs in the last major reshuffle two years ago,

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they, many of them are still pretty angry, I can tell you. They can

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cause trouble on the backbenches. The issue now is we are now ten

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months away from a general election. The pressure for party discipline is

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such that the calculation Downing Street will be making is that - the

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angry, sacked dismissed ex-ministers will feel enough sense of electoral

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loyal Tyne a desire to be re-elected themselves, that they will not rock

:09:00.:09:05.

the boat too much. One or two will not follow that pattern. But felt

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vulnerable to the charge that they zrnt a diverse enough looking

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Cabinet and Government? Yes and this is something that all the three

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largest parties at Westminster are acutely aware of, both in terms of

:09:18.:09:22.

frontbenches and governments but in terms of the MPs they have selected.

:09:23.:09:26.

It is not just about employment. It is about the number of women to

:09:27.:09:30.

apply to have the jobs. A lot of surveys suggests that many women are

:09:31.:09:34.

put off entering politics because of the nature of British politics. It

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is something they want tow counter. Whether or not the Prime Minister

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achieves his aim today in having a third of the Government made up of

:09:42.:09:46.

women by the end of the day, but that was the tall order some years

:09:47.:09:51.

ago he set himself. We will come back to you later and you can give

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us an update. With us now is the former Welsh

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Secretary, Cheryl Gillan and the former Children's Minister, Tim

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Loughton. Cheryl, has it been a long time

:09:59.:10:04.

coming this, promotion of women? I think it probably has, yes. I think

:10:05.:10:08.

women are not only underrepresented in Parliament but they have been

:10:09.:10:12.

unrepresented in Conservative ministerial ranks for many moons.

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When you consider, when I was made a Cabinet minister in 2010, I was only

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the fifth Conservative woman ever to serve at Cabinet level. I think

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that's a crying shame. There are 49 women on our bedges and there's

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plenty of talent. What -- on our benches. What I have been pleased to

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see is some of these women who have been promoted I think are tip-top

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and will outperform the men. Who? Let's look at Niki Morgan. She is in

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the Cabinet from the Treasury to replace plyingal Gove. Is she up to

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the job of carrying on with those reforms? I think she is. I don't

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think that would be a question you would scoff a man going into that

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position. I think she has been a feisty character she has singularity

:10:58.:11:01.

of mind, good education and she will make aed good job. She follow in the

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footsteps of Gillian Shepherd, a first-class Education Secretary.

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Nobody questioned whether she was up to the job. Liz Truss, I was with

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her last night, she is a very feisty, capable woman who knows what

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she wants in terms of both her family life and the balance she has

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there as well as her political career and what she gives to the

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country. I think we should welcome those appointments. Any other women

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you would like to have seen in? I don't want to see women promoted too

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rapidly without that hinterland and that political hinterland they need

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to be able to develop well in ministerial roles. I think he has

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chosen well with the people he has put N he is letting other women

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attend Cabinet but not of Cabinet rank, a good way of bringing them

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on. Don't forget, the Prime Minister has very little room to manoeuvre

:11:56.:11:58.

because he has Liberal Democrat posts to fill. He has undergone a

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radical reshuffle of the pack here. He has. I think it is important in a

:12:04.:12:07.

run-up to an election that a Prime Minister - this is his trump card,

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and what Prime Ministers do, that they can reshuffle the pack, but can

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I say that is not to say that I don't think there has been equally,

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very, very capable men who have left office. Right. You, Tim Loughton, we

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could say you are a middle-aged white man. Not that pale. You lost

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your ministerial job last time round. You know how it feels. How

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much resentment will there be? It was before the last time around. It

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was 2012. It is a horrible thing reshoveles. Both for the Prime

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Minister and the person on the wrong end of the rankings. But it is

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particularly annoying because you think you are doing a good job and

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you have kept your nose clean and you get some plaudits in the press

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but still you have to make way for somebody else and it is particularly

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galling. But that's politics. Politics isn't fair. As Jameses a

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saying earlier, the reshuffle isn't fair. I agree with Cheryl. There is

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really good women coming through entirely on talent. Pound-for-pound,

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I would say, that the women who were brought in in 2010, without do many

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of the men. There is talented people. The trouble s you don't want

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to promote them too early. Have they been promoted too quickly? Nicky

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Morgan, great talent. She took to being a minister like a duck to

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water. She has a big brief. She has a marginal seat. Liz Truss, another

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natural. They have been bumped up but we are eight or nine months away

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for campaigning from a general election and many people investment

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marginal seats. That will be a consideration. Do you think and do

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you agree the charge that this is a cull, if you like, that actually

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someone might say - sexists, do you think it is fair? Of course it is

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not fair. James said it wasn't fair. No reshuffle is fair. But what I

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think is fair is that the women who are coming forward are really good

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talents, will do great jobs as ministers and will portray a good

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face for the Tory Party that has been missing. Will this cut through,

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Paul coal ridge, to the general public who, most to of the time at

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reof shovels, people always say moving in one person you don't know

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being replaced by another? ? I moving in one person you don't know

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it is radical, so I think it is tribe a chord but this is surely all

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about positioning, as James Landale said, for the next general election,

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and that s I would imagine, the overwhelming consideration in

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Government at the moment. So, this is all about, I suppose, making sure

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you present a new, fresh, image to the public, you ditch all the people

:14:43.:14:48.

who bring with them a lot of rather unpleasant policy decisions that

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have gone on in the last few years and you present a new image to the

:14:53.:15:01.

electorate. Is this a friendlier face of the Conservative Government?

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Is this what David Cameron is trying to do? People who are telegenic, who

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will be able to communicate the message - that this is about a

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cinder, friendlier face, or is that not how you see it? I very much am

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hoping it is not as shallow as you are trying to make it out to be, I

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don't think it is necessarily about looking good on TV or promoting

:15:24.:15:27.

women for president sake of it. They have to be able to do the job. I

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think that these particular women, will be able to cut mustard but I

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agree with Paul, I think the Prime Minister needed to have a new and

:15:36.:15:38.

fresh approach and I think that he is sharpening up the party for what

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is going to be a very hard fight in this next general election. And we

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need politics that is constantly being lampooned at being out of

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touch with the people, we only have three women in Cabinet, that is not

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right or fair, when we have such intelligent women who should be in

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Cabinet. We are starting to see that. David Cameron might have

:16:04.:16:07.

wanted to get rid of people who had too much baggage, do you think that

:16:08.:16:11.

is the case with your boss, Michael Gove, deemed too controversial? I am

:16:12.:16:17.

probably not the right person to be asked about Michael Gove. But it was

:16:18.:16:23.

probably right. But he is being moved to Chief Whip, to bring the

:16:24.:16:30.

whip to bear on everybody else! Be afraid, be very afraid! We were

:16:31.:16:33.

surprised, and there is a big irony here because I think the education

:16:34.:16:37.

reforms have been one of the big successes of this government.

:16:38.:16:40.

Michael, whether you like him or not, he is controversial, took on

:16:41.:16:45.

the mediocre educational establishment and force through a

:16:46.:16:49.

lot of changes. Or alienating the educational establishment. The irony

:16:50.:16:56.

is that he is seen as a divisive and controversial figure, so in opinion

:16:57.:16:59.

poll terms it is not done us the good it deserves to have done. That

:17:00.:17:06.

is the problem. Let's see about Owen Paterson, you could have said a

:17:07.:17:10.

cheerleader for the right. Will there be unhappiness about that on

:17:11.:17:15.

the backbenches? Yes, I think so, because Owen is seen very much as a

:17:16.:17:19.

flag waver for the right and the Eurosceptic side of the party. I

:17:20.:17:23.

also hope with the two vacancies into which the two women have gone,

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there will not be this discussion about, are these two breeds that are

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associated with women? Why do we have Michael Fallon - macro two

:17:31.:17:39.

briefs. Why do we have Michael Fallon going in as Defence Secretary

:17:40.:17:46.

when we do not have a woman? He has tried to make sure, David Cameron,

:17:47.:17:51.

that we put the message across that this party has changed. He has been

:17:52.:17:54.

consistent on that right from the beginning when he stood as leader

:17:55.:17:59.

for the party. He came in as leader of the party to change the face of

:18:00.:18:02.

this party, and that is what he's doing, and my colleagues and myself

:18:03.:18:05.

have to understand that nobody is indispensable. There always live

:18:06.:18:09.

after a reshuffle on the backbenches, and Tim and I know

:18:10.:18:14.

that. There speaks the voice of experience from the backbenches. If

:18:15.:18:18.

you are disappointed about Owen Paterson going, are you pleased that

:18:19.:18:22.

Philip Hammond is the new Foreign Secretary? Do you think he will

:18:23.:18:25.

bolster that Eurosceptic feeling? Yes, I think it is a good

:18:26.:18:33.

appointment. I came in at the same time as Philip. The whole story will

:18:34.:18:38.

be about renegotiating with Europe ahead of a referendum. William has

:18:39.:18:45.

done one a fantastic job. One of the best foreign secretaries, but has

:18:46.:18:49.

not been outspoken on euro scepticism as many would like to be

:18:50.:18:52.

and like it or not, that will be the name of the game, post-2015. Dominic

:18:53.:18:58.

Grieve, finally, sacked from being Attorney General, some say partly

:18:59.:19:03.

because he supported the European Convention on human rights. How do

:19:04.:19:06.

you view that from a legal perspective? I think it is a very

:19:07.:19:11.

political decision to make. The idea of having a different Attorney

:19:12.:19:14.

General putting a different spin on the attitude of the courts towards

:19:15.:19:20.

the European convention on human rights is in reality Fantasy

:19:21.:19:23.

Football Club a present from a political point of view at the time

:19:24.:19:27.

of the election, it may prevent a feeling that perhaps the government

:19:28.:19:30.

are less friendly towards the EEC H R than they are in fact. This is a

:19:31.:19:37.

piece of legislation now so deeply entrenched in the way the courts

:19:38.:19:43.

work. Removing the Attorney General is really peripheral. We are going

:19:44.:19:46.

to leave it there, thank you very much.

:19:47.:19:50.

is really peripheral. We are going to leave Ken Clarke and Owen

:19:51.:19:52.

Paterson are not the only Westminster figures who have found

:19:53.:19:53.

themselves out of a job this week. Baroness Butler-Sloss, who was

:19:54.:19:56.

appointed only last week by Home Secretary Theresa May, yesterday

:19:57.:19:59.

announced that she would step down as chairman of the new inquiry

:20:00.:20:01.

into alleged child abuse by the establishment,

:20:02.:20:04.

citing what she called a widespread perception that she was

:20:05.:20:05.

the wrong person for the job. It was just in time for Mrs May to

:20:06.:20:08.

appear in front of the Home Affairs Select Committee, where she was

:20:09.:20:12.

grilled over her due diligence in appointing the baroness,

:20:13.:20:14.

in particular, claims that Baroness Butler-Sloss's brother

:20:15.:20:16.

Michael Havers had attempted to play I believe that the experience of

:20:17.:20:30.

Elizabeth Butler-Sloss had, and her personal integrity... We all accept

:20:31.:20:34.

this, we are all great fans of Elisabeth Butler-Sloss's integrity,

:20:35.:20:38.

that is not in question. What we have that to you twice is did you

:20:39.:20:44.

know of this specific incident involving Mr Dickens and Sir Michael

:20:45.:20:48.

Havers? This is an issue that has been raised in the last few days,

:20:49.:20:51.

and it has surfaced in the last few days as far as I am concerned. Do we

:20:52.:20:57.

take that as being a no? I have answer the question in the way I

:20:58.:21:03.

wish to answer it, chairman. Did Juno Baroness Butler-Sloss, I

:21:04.:21:10.

presume? Very well. She has been a figure in my professional life since

:21:11.:21:13.

the very day I started, many, many decades ago. She started as a junior

:21:14.:21:21.

judge, she worked her way up. She is universally respected. In the last

:21:22.:21:25.

few decades, she has been the president of the family division,

:21:26.:21:27.

the biggest family job in the country. She was chairman, as we

:21:28.:21:33.

know, of the extraordinarily important Cliveden enquiry which

:21:34.:21:36.

looked at the passing of the children's act. There is frankly

:21:37.:21:41.

nobody... That is not true, there are very few people who have her

:21:42.:21:45.

experience, and she is also a woman of most extraordinary wisdom and

:21:46.:21:49.

common sense. But was she right to resign from her appointment to head

:21:50.:21:53.

up this enquiry? I think she provably was. I suspect nobody had

:21:54.:21:59.

given proper thought to this angle at the time she was appointed.

:22:00.:22:04.

Really? You don't think the Home Secretary should have thought about

:22:05.:22:08.

it, should have thought about how sensitive it was? Somebody must have

:22:09.:22:11.

slightly dropped the ball in not noticing that her brother had been

:22:12.:22:15.

involved in the government many, many decades ago, perhaps. I think

:22:16.:22:20.

if that had been properly considered at the time, she would probably not

:22:21.:22:29.

have been considered for the job. She is a woman of huge wisdom, and

:22:30.:22:37.

has come to the decision I think quite rightly that if she was to

:22:38.:22:41.

make findings which were not finding is that some of the victims want to

:22:42.:22:47.

be made, the comment would always be made, well, she would say that,

:22:48.:22:52.

wouldn't she, because she is protecting her. And protecting the

:22:53.:22:56.

establishment. I don't think I am very impressed by that, but possibly

:22:57.:23:04.

her brother. The problem is who do you get to head up an enquiry with a

:23:05.:23:09.

similar level of expertise? The problem here is that people don't

:23:10.:23:13.

trust the establishment, and having an establishment figure will make it

:23:14.:23:20.

difficult. There are non-establishment judges, I would

:23:21.:23:22.

rather not mention names, but there are judges I can think of who have

:23:23.:23:27.

retired quite recently and have had no particular connections with

:23:28.:23:32.

government and have had no big jobs like President of the family

:23:33.:23:34.

division who would certainly be up to doing this. Child abuse is the

:23:35.:23:38.

meat and drink of the family division. And we get appointed to do

:23:39.:23:43.

these kind of specific enquiries from time to time, and I don't

:23:44.:23:47.

think, if they spend a little time, it won't be difficult to find

:23:48.:23:51.

somebody who has the expertise. Was it right for the Prime Minister to

:23:52.:23:56.

call for this overarching enquiry into child abuse? I think it was. As

:23:57.:24:00.

everybody says, things have changed very dramatically in the course of

:24:01.:24:04.

the last 30 years, particularly since the passing of the children's

:24:05.:24:09.

act. But these skeletons in the cupboard, if they exist, need to be

:24:10.:24:13.

brought out and exposed and dealt with in the same way as all these

:24:14.:24:19.

other cases have come to light. I don't think we can shove all this

:24:20.:24:21.

stuff under the carpet any more. Jean-Claude Juncker has been

:24:22.:24:27.

speaking in the European Parliament in Strasbourg this morning, ahead

:24:28.:24:29.

of a debate and vote on approving his appointment as President

:24:30.:24:32.

of the European Commission. The session was basically seen

:24:33.:24:34.

as a rubber stamp for Mr Juncker, What about Britain? I am defending

:24:35.:24:55.

the single currency, because the single currency is protecting

:24:56.:24:57.

Europe, its economy, its citizens. But in reality, you know and we know

:24:58.:25:12.

that none of this really matters. The deal has been done. The spoils

:25:13.:25:17.

have been shared out. The election that was supposed to end all of

:25:18.:25:23.

these deals has resulted in the mother of all backroom deals. You

:25:24.:25:29.

know and we know that you are likely to be the next president of the

:25:30.:25:33.

commission, and Mr Juncker, we wish you well, but members of my

:25:34.:25:36.

political group will not be able to vote for you today for two reasons:

:25:37.:25:40.

Firstly, we do not subscribe to the process that brought you here. We do

:25:41.:25:45.

not believe that you have an EU wide mandate that stretches all the way

:25:46.:25:49.

across the memo states. Secondly, members of my group are not yet

:25:50.:25:53.

convinced that you are the right man to lead the charge for European

:25:54.:25:57.

reform. Green so what of our nominee? On the plus side, still

:25:58.:26:02.

Juncker, you are a sociable cove with a much better since of tumour

:26:03.:26:07.

than most people I have met in Brussels. And there is no question

:26:08.:26:11.

that you are a political operator, and you even managed to come over

:26:12.:26:14.

the last couple of weeks, as you have gone around the political

:26:15.:26:18.

groups, changed the mood music of it. You said you don't believe in

:26:19.:26:21.

the United States of Europe, you don't believe in a common European

:26:22.:26:25.

identity, but I have to say I didn't believe a word of it.

:26:26.:26:29.

Joining me now from Strasbourg is the Tory MEP, Daniel Hannan, and the

:26:30.:26:33.

Labour MEP, Mary Honeyball. Welcome to you both.

:26:34.:26:37.

Daniel Hannan, first of all, just listening to that, is that the taste

:26:38.:26:43.

of things to come, in terms of that rather feisty debate?

:26:44.:26:49.

Yes, and you did not even show the best bits of Juncker. He was calling

:26:50.:26:57.

for a pan European minimum wage, he was calling the 300 billion euros of

:26:58.:27:01.

extra spending, because obviously Europe needs to spend more, that is

:27:02.:27:06.

not the cause of the problem at all! The wonderful passage you showed

:27:07.:27:09.

saying that the single currency was the defender of the people of

:27:10.:27:14.

Europe, that will be news to the 19 million unemployed people in the

:27:15.:27:17.

Eurozone. Then he finished by playing tribute to his heroes, force

:27:18.:27:21.

one that Iran, home and coal. I don't think there could be anyone at

:27:22.:27:24.

this stage how King that the British, was right to vote against

:27:25.:27:29.

him. Clearly, Mr Juncker did not charm you. At the same time he has

:27:30.:27:34.

said I am not in principle saying that no kind of repatriations of

:27:35.:27:39.

powers to Britain can take place. If Westminster wants to recover

:27:40.:27:42.

competencies and others agree, it shall be done. So he might not be

:27:43.:27:46.

this block to reform that you and others have stated. The word he just

:27:47.:27:51.

used for that package was reform. So reform has become absolutely

:27:52.:27:54.

meaningless. When Juncker means it to mean more Europe everywhere.

:27:55.:28:03.

Clearly we need a different word. You are right though, the deal we

:28:04.:28:09.

should be going for is a series of unilateral repatriations which will

:28:10.:28:12.

give something closer to what the Swiss and the Norwegians do, where

:28:13.:28:16.

we are in the free market, but outside the political union. What I

:28:17.:28:21.

think is a mistake is to try to go for a pan European reform. It is

:28:22.:28:25.

very clear that isn't on offer. A man espousing the views you have

:28:26.:28:30.

just shown was elected by 22 governments. Mary Honeyball, you are

:28:31.:28:36.

desperate to come in. As Daniel well knows, that package she has talked

:28:37.:28:41.

about, Britain coming out of the US not on offer, nor I content is

:28:42.:28:45.

actually what the people of the UK actually want. It is only UKIP and

:28:46.:28:51.

some Eurosceptics like Daniel who was to see that. The point I would

:28:52.:28:57.

like to make is that David Cameron, our Prime Minister, really handled

:28:58.:29:02.

the negotiations over Juncker very badly. He missed making the

:29:03.:29:06.

alliances which she could have done, and I believe that if Cameron had

:29:07.:29:10.

been better at doing that, we may not find ourselves in the position

:29:11.:29:14.

of only having Jean-Claude Juncker here today. So I think that David

:29:15.:29:19.

Cameron has a lot to answer for. It is therefore wrong, I think, to talk

:29:20.:29:23.

about this is a stitch up. It is a bit more than a stitch up, and the

:29:24.:29:27.

way it worked was that under the Lisbon Treaty the European party had

:29:28.:29:32.

to be consulted about who would be president of the commission. And the

:29:33.:29:38.

current system emerged. And it is exactly like choosing a government.

:29:39.:29:43.

When you vote in the UK, the largest party actually then provides the

:29:44.:29:50.

Prime Minister. This system that was operated today is not very different

:29:51.:29:55.

from that. Are you a fan of Jean-Claude Juncker? He was not the

:29:56.:30:00.

candidate to which your party belongs, are you confident that this

:30:01.:30:04.

arch federalist, as people like Daniel Hannan see him as, is going

:30:05.:30:08.

to deliver what you and the Labour group want? Well, as I said, it was

:30:09.:30:17.

not a stitch up, partly because the Labour MEP did not vote for

:30:18.:30:20.

Jean-Claude Juncker. We have never supported him, because we don't

:30:21.:30:23.

think he is going to deliver a lot of the things we would like to see.

:30:24.:30:27.

We want to see jobs and growth in Europe. We want to see unemployment

:30:28.:30:32.

come right down, we wanted to see action on climate change and energy

:30:33.:30:35.

security. We want to see better wages. We want a proper reform and

:30:36.:30:41.

changed agenda in Europe, and we don't believe that John Claude

:30:42.:30:45.

Juncker, who is not of our political family, we don't believe he can

:30:46.:30:51.

deliver that. Labour didn't have an alternative candidate they were

:30:52.:30:54.

pushing but do you think that Jean-Claude Juncker, now as European

:30:55.:31:01.

Commission President hastens or coup could Hayesen British departure from

:31:02.:31:07.

the EU? I do shall -- or could hasten.

:31:08.:31:11.

It puts an end to the idea of fantasy. The idea that British

:31:12.:31:16.

politicians have been pushing for 40 or 50 years, the idea that we could

:31:17.:31:21.

create this thing called a Europe of Nations in large, free trading

:31:22.:31:26.

Europe. Plainly that is not what he is talking B he has just won the

:31:27.:31:30.

support of 26 out of 28 governments. He, in about ten minutes' time I

:31:31.:31:34.

think will win the support of most ME pe. Ps, we should stop deluding

:31:35.:31:40.

ourselves and fantasising about the kind of EU we might have liked and

:31:41.:31:45.

face up to what has taken shape on our doorstep and ask the only

:31:46.:31:48.

question that matters - will he be part of that or follow into this

:31:49.:31:52.

United States of Europe or can we have a different relationship of the

:31:53.:31:56.

kind that all the other non-EU states in Europe have, where we were

:31:57.:31:59.

open market inter-governmental cooperation and military alliance

:32:00.:32:03.

but on the basis that our own law is supreme in our territory. I would

:32:04.:32:07.

like Daniel to explain what that would mean for the UK? We know that

:32:08.:32:11.

over half of our exports could to Europe. It is not true. We know how

:32:12.:32:14.

important the single market Europe. It is not true. We know how

:32:15.:32:18.

our country. I don't believe we can have one without the other. It is no

:32:19.:32:23.

longer true that over half of our exports go to Europe. We are trapped

:32:24.:32:27.

in a trade block that is sinking. I do not want to see a superstate. I

:32:28.:32:32.

want to see reform and change but I don't think that Jean-Claude Juncker

:32:33.:32:35.

account person to do that. I will have to leave it there. You

:32:36.:32:39.

supported him. We have to stop you there. Apologies. We will get you a

:32:40.:32:42.

better earpiece next time. Later this week the House of Lords

:32:43.:32:46.

will be debating the The Private Member's Bill - bought

:32:47.:32:49.

by Labour peer Lord Falconer - would make it legal for terminally-ill

:32:50.:32:53.

adults in England and Wales to The former Archbishop of Canterbury,

:32:54.:32:55.

Lord Carey, and even Desmond Tutu, are in favour of such a change

:32:56.:33:00.

but many people still oppose it. Here's what Baroness Tanni

:33:01.:33:04.

Grey-Thompson had to say after the Supreme Court ruled against

:33:05.:33:06.

right-to-die campaigners last month. The law we have is not perfect but I

:33:07.:33:17.

think the proposition that we have before us moves the line in the sand

:33:18.:33:21.

too far the other way, where, it is open to interpretation that people

:33:22.:33:25.

may be coerced or encouraged or because they don't have the right

:33:26.:33:28.

support around them, they think that this is the only option that they

:33:29.:33:35.

have. And at the moment, you know, if there is circumstances where

:33:36.:33:38.

somebody, you know, has the wrong type of help, you know, the police

:33:39.:33:42.

investigate and there is a possibility of bringing action. If

:33:43.:33:49.

Lord falconers' bill, as it stands, go goes through, there will not be

:33:50.:33:52.

that kind of investigation. We are joined by Lord Falconer and Dr

:33:53.:33:58.

Vivienne Nathanson from the BMA who oppose a change in the law. What

:33:59.:34:02.

will be aloud over your proposal? Where somebody has a diagnosis of

:34:03.:34:06.

six months or less to live and two doctors have certified that the

:34:07.:34:09.

person has the mental capacity to make the decision as to whether or

:34:10.:34:13.

not they should be given a prescription which they can take and

:34:14.:34:16.

the doctors both certify that that person has the firm and settled

:34:17.:34:20.

intention that they wish to take their life, then they will be given

:34:21.:34:24.

a prescription but they have got to take T so what will be authorised,

:34:25.:34:27.

subject to the safeguards is the giving of a prescription, to

:34:28.:34:30.

somebody to take their own life. A lot of pressure on doctors. Isn't

:34:31.:34:35.

it? Not at all. Doctors are used to treating people in the last days of

:34:36.:34:39.

their life. What my bill does, is that it means that for those who are

:34:40.:34:44.

clear about it, they won't have to struggle and fight maybe for two or

:34:45.:34:49.

three more days of life. The BMA is very clear in its position, no

:34:50.:34:52.

change, no assisted dying. Why? Mainly because we have listened to

:34:53.:34:57.

what doctors have to say. While there are a wide variety of views,

:34:58.:35:01.

the majority are against it and they are worried. The majority of

:35:02.:35:05.

doctors, not the public? The majority of doctors. Remember, you

:35:06.:35:08.

are asking that doctors that instead of having as the basic remit of

:35:09.:35:12.

their role to be to alleviate suffering, to help and look after

:35:13.:35:15.

people, to give them control over their lives, what you are saying is

:35:16.:35:19.

they will help people to end their livers and for doctors that is such

:35:20.:35:23.

a fundamental change, that the majority are saying they wouldn't be

:35:24.:35:26.

prepared to do this. But they are out of step, aren't they, with

:35:27.:35:31.

public opinion? You see a doctor's role differently in the way you have

:35:32.:35:37.

outlined but over 80% of people in the British attitudes study have

:35:38.:35:41.

said a doctor should be able toned the life of a terminally ill person.

:35:42.:35:48.

# I think the difference here is doctors come to this from a

:35:49.:35:51.

different position. That position is understanding what can be done. A

:35:52.:35:55.

large part of a doctor's concern is that this would lead to people

:35:56.:35:59.

feeling that death was the best option for them, whereas in fact

:36:00.:36:04.

palliative care and so on maybe able to offer them those last few days,

:36:05.:36:09.

weeks or months, in a situation which is acceptable to them. It has

:36:10.:36:13.

to be what the patient wants. What about the dangers inherent in this?

:36:14.:36:19.

There are dangers? People could be pressurised into ending their own

:36:20.:36:24.

lives. And I'm sure you would not be happy about that. Not at all. In a

:36:25.:36:36.

way that people has said that legalising assisted dying, is the

:36:37.:36:44.

sword of dchl amaclese hanging over people's heads. It is beater and

:36:45.:36:50.

safer position than one and what the Supreme Court said, in a situation

:36:51.:36:54.

where somebody takes their own life and there is an investigation

:36:55.:36:57.

afterwards as to whether there was pressure. Can you put safeguards in

:36:58.:37:01.

place, legally? I don't see any problem with it. The problem with

:37:02.:37:05.

the debate is principle and practice get muddled. The principle is the

:37:06.:37:08.

one that Charlie has been talking about, that people should have the

:37:09.:37:12.

autonomy to make debt significance. That is what is supported, I think

:37:13.:37:16.

-- to make the decision. I think that's what is supported because

:37:17.:37:19.

medical science have reached the stage where people can be kept alive

:37:20.:37:23.

forever. They should be able to say, to seems to me - enough is enough

:37:24.:37:28.

and be helped to bring their lives to an end but, of course, the

:37:29.:37:32.

safeguards that need to be put in place, need to be the best possible

:37:33.:37:36.

safeguards that can be devised. I don't see a problem with this. We

:37:37.:37:41.

already, - those judges who sit in the Family Division already take

:37:42.:37:46.

these decisions frequently. The only point in which I would disagree with

:37:47.:37:51.

Charlie is with leaving it to the doctors. I would in fact shift that

:37:52.:37:56.

to the court. I would make a judge make that final decision, which is

:37:57.:37:59.

what he does now in circumstances where we are dealing with PVS

:38:00.:38:03.

patients, where we are dealing with children who can't make up decisions

:38:04.:38:08.

for themselves, for the mentally incapacitated and we are very used

:38:09.:38:12.

to doing it. They are very difficult decisions but they are tried

:38:13.:38:16.

extremely sensitively in public and there is nothing secret about it. I

:38:17.:38:20.

would be uneasy about leaving it to doctors. I think it is putting too

:38:21.:38:24.

much responsibility on them. Wouldn't that be a safer, judicial

:38:25.:38:29.

way of dealing with it? We considered carefully whether or not

:38:30.:38:33.

is should be a court-based decision process. A lot of people concluded

:38:34.:38:38.

that but the conclusion we have reached is that it is much better

:38:39.:38:42.

that it be done by the doctors, some who maybe involved in the treatment

:38:43.:38:46.

of the patient. They don't want to do it. That is the key, isn't it? I

:38:47.:38:50.

very much question what Vivien is saying is the view of the doctors. I

:38:51.:38:54.

really that that, with the greatest of respect, my experience of talking

:38:55.:38:58.

to a lot of doctors is that there are some who are very opposed to it

:38:59.:39:03.

be, there are some who are very in favour of it, the vast majority what

:39:04.:39:07.

a clear decision to be made about it, so that they, the doctors, know

:39:08.:39:11.

where they stwand. They would be following the law. Exactly. Would

:39:12.:39:14.

that change your attitude? Well, obviously if there was a law we

:39:15.:39:18.

would have to look at what that meant from doctors but the evidence

:39:19.:39:22.

we have from doctors is that the majority wouldn't want to take part

:39:23.:39:27.

in this. But we know there are some who would be willing. I don't argue

:39:28.:39:30.

about that. The question is whether those who are not willing, feel that

:39:31.:39:34.

this could damage their relationship with patients. That's part of the

:39:35.:39:38.

sensitivity here. You are a doctor, how would you feel personally,

:39:39.:39:41.

putting aside the views you are expressing of the BMA, how would you

:39:42.:39:46.

feel about making that decision personally? I would feel

:39:47.:39:50.

extraordinarily difficult. Really? Yes Having started my career working

:39:51.:39:54.

in palliative medicine. One of the things that is key is talking to the

:39:55.:39:58.

patient Bo and finding out what they want and making sure they are

:39:59.:40:01.

getting all options. What worries me and a lot of doctors s that a lot of

:40:02.:40:07.

patients don't get every option of palliative care available. The

:40:08.:40:11.

second thing is absolutely we must never force people to have a

:40:12.:40:15.

treatment that would extend their life that they don't want. It is

:40:16.:40:18.

part of the sensitivity. It is one of the things that doctors, we know,

:40:19.:40:22.

is people are more frightened, is being forced to have a treatment

:40:23.:40:26.

that is unacceptable. I will have to leave it there.

:40:27.:40:33.

Now, have you ever said "I do" or more to the point, asked, "will you

:40:34.:40:38.

marry me"? Well, apparently after decades of decline, getting married

:40:39.:40:41.

is more popular. But how important is marriage when it comes to

:40:42.:40:44.

bringing up a family? Here's Eleanor.

:40:45.:40:44.

Love to and to cherish until death do us part. We all love celebrating

:40:45.:40:50.

a good wedding but how many of us think marriage really is essential

:40:51.:40:54.

when it comes to having a family? I don't believe it is important at

:40:55.:40:58.

all. Even though we are married. You don't have to have married. You can

:40:59.:41:02.

have a stable relationship and bring up children without having to

:41:03.:41:09.

commit. I'm 50/50 on that. Oh, gosh, very important. That's bus I'm a

:41:10.:41:19.

Christian. -- -- that's because. Since the 107s there has been a

:41:20.:41:24.

long-term decline in weddings in England and Wales. That's because

:41:25.:41:26.

more couples are living together without getting married and many are

:41:27.:41:31.

delaying marriage altogether now, though, weddings are back in vogue.

:41:32.:41:35.

Marriage is up 5% according to the latest figures from the office of

:41:36.:41:39.

national statistics. It might be getting more popular but there are

:41:40.:41:43.

still clear generation a differences on marriage, according to the

:41:44.:41:46.

British Social Attitudes Survey. It says people born in the 1950s and

:41:47.:41:52.

60s are much more likely to think you ought to get married, if you

:41:53.:41:56.

want to have children, than people currently in their 20s and 30s. And

:41:57.:42:00.

the differences and opinion on marriage are played out in the

:42:01.:42:05.

political sphere, too. ! Those who are Conservative supporters are much

:42:06.:42:08.

more likely to think that marriage and children go to together than

:42:09.:42:11.

Labour and certainly Liberal Democrat supporters. You can see why

:42:12.:42:16.

this is an issue which has been a particular touchstone for the

:42:17.:42:20.

Conservative Party. Why it has wanted to reintroduce the marriage

:42:21.:42:22.

tax allowance because its supporters are particularly still in favour of

:42:23.:42:25.

marriage and certainly in favour of marriage when children are involved.

:42:26.:42:29.

And some MPs couldn't be clearer on the value of tying the knot. I think

:42:30.:42:34.

marriage is absolutely critical. As the previous Labour Government

:42:35.:42:38.

established when they did a report supporting families, marriage is

:42:39.:42:41.

historically the best foundation for bringing up children. There is no

:42:42.:42:45.

point in denying it and we face a real problem in this country, with

:42:46.:42:49.

dysfunctional families. Every Member of Parliament experiences it. We see

:42:50.:42:54.

the trail of human misery. Family breakdown is now costing this nation

:42:55.:42:59.

?46 billion a year, more than we spend on defence. I used to work at

:43:00.:43:04.

the Children's Society before I was elected to Parliament. What I saw

:43:05.:43:07.

there is that for children the most important thing is they had strong,

:43:08.:43:10.

loving relationships with their parents and their wider family. So,

:43:11.:43:13.

while we should celebrate marriage and respect it as a great

:43:14.:43:18.

institution, if children's parents aren't married they may have chosen

:43:19.:43:22.

to express that commitment in a completely different way. We should

:43:23.:43:27.

still respect and support that. Same-sex marriage became legal in

:43:28.:43:30.

England and Wales after a new law was passed in Parliament last year.

:43:31.:43:35.

As the institution of marriage is opened up to more people, some may

:43:36.:43:41.

question its value, but the trend is on the rise.

:43:42.:43:46.

We are joined by the writer and activist Julie Bindel who says

:43:47.:43:50.

marriage is a Conservative institutions which curtail's women's

:43:51.:43:55.

freedom and still with us, Paul Coleridge, previously a High Court

:43:56.:44:00.

judge specialising in family matters and founder of the Marriage

:44:01.:44:04.

Foundation. Why does marriage provide a better foundation for

:44:05.:44:08.

bringing up children than having two loving parents who aren't married?

:44:09.:44:13.

Because it lasts. The statistics are overwhelming that people who get

:44:14.:44:15.

married for all sorts of psychological reasons that we

:44:16.:44:19.

discuss, stay together longer than people who don't have children and

:44:20.:44:23.

the overwhelmingly important factor in the upbringing of children, as

:44:24.:44:27.

your film, one of your commentators on your film made clear, is for the

:44:28.:44:33.

overwhelmingly important factor in the development of children is the

:44:34.:44:36.

stable relationship of their parents and so anything that provides that

:44:37.:44:39.

stability, which is what the Marriage Fundation is all about -

:44:40.:44:43.

anything that reinforce that is stability is a good thing from the

:44:44.:44:48.

point of view of children. You are going against the statistics, the

:44:49.:44:52.

evidence of being married is better if you are going to have children.

:44:53.:44:58.

No we have not polled those people who live in non-twra digsal

:44:59.:45:02.

non-wedded relationships. They are increasing, although there is a

:45:03.:45:06.

slight rise as the figures show in marriage, more and more heterosexual

:45:07.:45:11.

couples are veering away, choosing not to share the same household.

:45:12.:45:17.

Many children are being raised in non-traditional families and are

:45:18.:45:21.

better off for T my person about the way marriage is being peddled as a

:45:22.:45:25.

great institution is we are not looking at the number of women who

:45:26.:45:28.

instigate stwors. The majority is about one in two of all marriages at

:45:29.:45:34.

the moment are instigated by women, and the majority are either their

:45:35.:45:38.

husband's infidelity or domestic violence. Now, many children who

:45:39.:45:42.

grow up in environments, in marriage environments, are very badly

:45:43.:45:46.

affected by domestic violence, by child sexual abuse and by very

:45:47.:45:50.

unhappy relationships. That's not the sort of stability children

:45:51.:45:56.

should be forced to - that should be forced upon children. And you must

:45:57.:46:04.

have seen plenty of that in the family division, are you advocating

:46:05.:46:08.

that couples should stay together even in those circumstances,

:46:09.:46:11.

marriage, above everything else, is more important, whatever is going on

:46:12.:46:17.

in that family? No, I am not advocating that, we never have

:46:18.:46:21.

advocated that. What we are advocating is much more thought

:46:22.:46:24.

before you break your relationship up, whether it be married or

:46:25.:46:28.

unmarried relationship, because what we do know, and there is very recent

:46:29.:46:33.

literature by experts that has demonstrated this, however you dress

:46:34.:46:39.

it up, the separation of parents, the break-up of a parent 's's

:46:40.:46:42.

relationship, affects the children for the rest of their lives. So

:46:43.:46:48.

everything that can reasonably done to keep relationships reasonably

:46:49.:46:54.

happy, and don't let's have a fairy tale ideal about long-term

:46:55.:46:57.

relationships, whether they be married or not, should be done. And

:46:58.:47:01.

the current level of breakdown, which as you rightly say, is miles

:47:02.:47:05.

too high, needs to be addressed and tackled. And the government, all of

:47:06.:47:10.

us, individual organisations like ours, needs to focus people 's minds

:47:11.:47:15.

on the damage they are doing to their children. I can think of

:47:16.:47:19.

nothing worse than staying in a relationship for the sake of staying

:47:20.:47:23.

in that relationship. But do people walk away too easily, if there was

:47:24.:47:27.

more, if not pressure, being put on them, but if there were more

:47:28.:47:31.

agencies working with people to keep people together, would that not be

:47:32.:47:35.

better? I think that is the worst possible thing you can do for women

:47:36.:47:39.

and their children in particular. Many women are worst intermarriage.

:47:40.:47:42.

We just have to look in the UK, never mind elsewhere, where was the

:47:43.:47:47.

early marriage, chartered marriages, forced marriages, where within are

:47:48.:47:52.

trapped because of religious organisation. -- childhood marriages

:47:53.:47:58.

was the state is involved it is far more difficult to win in to leave,

:47:59.:48:02.

and that is the last thing we should be doing, piling more pressure on

:48:03.:48:12.

them. The view that women are shackled to that household has to be

:48:13.:48:16.

very bad for the children. What about this idea of single parents,

:48:17.:48:21.

in this whole debate, they are going to feel that people in the family

:48:22.:48:26.

division do not regard them as being able to provide a loving,

:48:27.:48:29.

division do not regard them as being able to provide stable home? And

:48:30.:48:33.

that actually the only option is the institution of marriage? We have

:48:34.:48:36.

never said that, I have never said that. But is that not the

:48:37.:48:42.

implication? Well, I am very sad if it is. Single women do a fantastic

:48:43.:48:49.

job. Single men, for that matter, though it is mainly single

:48:50.:48:54.

job. Single men, for that matter, children know what an

:48:55.:48:58.

extraordinarily arduous task it is, over many, many years and it is very

:48:59.:49:02.

much more difficult to do it on your own. So, of course, they should be

:49:03.:49:07.

given every plaudits are doing what they do. Are you advocating,

:49:08.:49:15.

though, judicial activism here? Do you think it is right for a judge or

:49:16.:49:19.

someone in a position to be advocating a moral standpoint, if

:49:20.:49:24.

you like? It has nothing to do with it. I am not interested in people 's

:49:25.:49:30.

morals. If they don't have children, they can have as have as far as I am

:49:31.:49:33.

concerned three relationships a week. That is nothing to do with

:49:34.:49:39.

what we are about. We are about children and the best outcome for

:49:40.:49:44.

them. He has had experience in the family division of the misery that

:49:45.:49:48.

has caused. Is it not worth listening to him? It still wants

:49:49.:49:53.

people to stay married despite the misery. Interestingly, your

:49:54.:49:57.

organisation was against equal marriage for lesbians and gay

:49:58.:50:00.

people, when I think the reason they have been invited to join the

:50:01.:50:04.

institution is because it is a failing one, with numbers dwindling.

:50:05.:50:08.

We have to look at not just child sexual abuse and domestic violence

:50:09.:50:12.

is a cause for the breaking of relationships, but the fact that men

:50:13.:50:18.

within marriages are doing so little more housework and childcare than

:50:19.:50:23.

they ever were. One minute per day per year for the last three decades

:50:24.:50:30.

increase. No wonder so many women are unhappily married.

:50:31.:50:32.

Let's get more on the reshuffle and our Deputy Political Editor, James

:50:33.:50:35.

Give us the latest details. There is a brief lunchtime hiatus going on

:50:36.:50:44.

here but in the last half an hour, we have had a string of women MPs

:50:45.:50:49.

coming in with big smiles, and leaving that door with even bigger

:50:50.:50:53.

smiles. By my count now, we have eight Wigan who have been promoted,

:50:54.:50:57.

three obviously to the Cabinet that we have seen earlier in the day, we

:50:58.:51:01.

have seen Anna superego she has been promoted, now a mid-ranking defence

:51:02.:51:10.

minister. -- Anna Subri. And Rudd is an environment minister. Preeti

:51:11.:51:21.

Patel Is joining the Exchequer. George Osborne's team. There is a

:51:22.:51:24.

bit of redemption going on here. We talk about the women but we should

:51:25.:51:28.

not forget that men have been promoted too. There are two new male

:51:29.:51:33.

faces in the Cabinet, Michael Fallon and Stephen Crabb, and a lot of

:51:34.:51:38.

other men being promoted too. What about the political impact, as we

:51:39.:51:46.

stand now? I think the rest of Whitehall is sitting down, having

:51:47.:51:49.

its lunch, thinking what does that mean? Clearly there will be a huge

:51:50.:51:51.

presentational change in the way the government presents itself to the

:51:52.:51:54.

outside world. We will see an awful lot of Michael Gove on our channels,

:51:55.:51:59.

an awful lot of these female MPs who have been promoted to the front

:52:00.:52:03.

stage. Will it change policy, and I think that is more of a subtle

:52:04.:52:06.

question and one we will have to wait a while to see. But clearly the

:52:07.:52:12.

Prime Minister wanted to do a reshuffle, hates doing them, this

:52:13.:52:16.

time he has wanted to try and be bold, so he can try to break through

:52:17.:52:20.

the Westminster bubble, to try and impact on some of the voters out

:52:21.:52:23.

there who might just be engaging with this, to say there is a bit of

:52:24.:52:27.

change, a bit of freshness. That is his aim. Whether the public respond

:52:28.:52:31.

like that, we will have to wait and see. We are joined by the Sun's

:52:32.:52:36.

political editor, Tom Newton Dunn and by Steve

:52:37.:52:39.

Richards from the Independent. welcome to both of you. Tom Newton

:52:40.:52:48.

Dunn, much more radical, much more different than any of us predicted.

:52:49.:52:52.

Will it make a material difference to what we see in policy terms, or

:52:53.:52:57.

is it all about presentation? Almost certainly not, this is effectively

:52:58.:53:06.

cosmetic. Dramatically cosmetic, a lot of interesting faces, but it is

:53:07.:53:10.

also not just the female element. There is also the rise of the

:53:11.:53:14.

regional accents, to put it another way, the toffs are slightly down,

:53:15.:53:18.

those with a more modest background are up. That is very important for

:53:19.:53:22.

David Cameron to present this new, slightly softer face to the country.

:53:23.:53:26.

They have been well aware now for a year or two fine, they have sorted

:53:27.:53:31.

out the, tackling the deficit Benchley, they have done the hard

:53:32.:53:34.

stuff, the numbers look good. But they have not translated the feeling

:53:35.:53:40.

to victories. This is all about cosmetics. How could you change

:53:41.:53:44.

policy, if you think about it? All the big reforms through, Iain

:53:45.:53:47.

Smith's universal credit, free schools, there is not much new

:53:48.:53:53.

legislation. It is how you present the legislation that is already

:53:54.:53:57.

there. Do you think it will work, if we take what Tom Newton Dunn has

:53:58.:54:01.

said, this is an election footing, clearly moving across to next May,

:54:02.:54:08.

Lynton Crosby perhaps has a singer Prince all over this, the election

:54:09.:54:13.

strategist? No, because in the end in British politics, certainly in

:54:14.:54:16.

the build-up to an election, as far as voters notice things at all, they

:54:17.:54:21.

might notice the leader, the Chancellor, if he or she is lucky,

:54:22.:54:25.

and a couple of others, but not much beyond that. And we still have the

:54:26.:54:29.

same leader, we still have the same Chancellor. If these moves have

:54:30.:54:35.

happened in year one, there could be big policy applications, but I

:54:36.:54:38.

completely agree with Tom, there will be no policy implications. The

:54:39.:54:43.

strategy is decided at the very top and that strategy is in place. It is

:54:44.:54:47.

about communicating the message, isn't it? Will that not be more

:54:48.:54:53.

effective now? Although Michael Gove has alienate it a huge number of

:54:54.:54:57.

people in the education world, he is a brilliant interviewee. He has the

:54:58.:55:02.

art of the political interview back down to a fine art. Seeing more

:55:03.:55:08.

within on the television at the margins will make a slight defence.

:55:09.:55:13.

Otherwise, this will have very little practical consequence. This

:55:14.:55:17.

charge, Tom Newton Dunn, that this has been the cult of the pale, male

:55:18.:55:24.

and stale, has it been overstated? Cheryl Gillan said it had been a

:55:25.:55:28.

long time coming, David Cameron should have done this a long time

:55:29.:55:32.

ago, promoting able women to these positions. He was just answering the

:55:33.:55:37.

charge that there were too many posh boys in the government and in

:55:38.:55:40.

Cabinet, and they should have been more women promoted before now.

:55:41.:55:46.

Because they have never had them. She and the Chancellor are both

:55:47.:55:51.

correct. Don't underestimate, 17 ministers went last night, half of

:55:52.:55:55.

them sacked. Owen Paterson did not want to go, Dominic Grieve did not

:55:56.:55:59.

want to go, Damian Green did not want to go. These are to a greater

:56:00.:56:02.

or lesser extent, the posh ones, the old ones, people who are not quite

:56:03.:56:07.

as electorally presentable as perhaps they should be in this

:56:08.:56:10.

modern day and age was that I agree with Steve, but I would not

:56:11.:56:18.

underestimate the repeated effect of Esther McVey, Liverpool born and

:56:19.:56:21.

bred, brilliant TV performer, and Michael Gove, the Mr and Mrs of the

:56:22.:56:25.

TV studios and that they will have their own seats, you will have to

:56:26.:56:28.

write their names on the back of the seats for the next nine months. That

:56:29.:56:35.

seeps in. You think it will have cut through? It will to a certain

:56:36.:56:40.

extent. David Cameron's problem is he is a terrible toffs and he is out

:56:41.:56:44.

of touch, so say the polls. This will help, to a greater or lesser

:56:45.:56:48.

extent, but it will help. Ideological aeon Europe, what do you

:56:49.:56:52.

make of the changes, looking at that prism? It has become slightly more

:56:53.:56:59.

Eurosceptic. We have a Foreign Secretary who has publicly

:57:00.:57:01.

contemplated the idea of leaving the European Union. It is not that much

:57:02.:57:07.

more right wing than the previous cabinet that Cameron led, but if you

:57:08.:57:11.

compare it to the last time they won an overall majority in 1992, when he

:57:12.:57:15.

had Ken Clarke, Douglas Hurd and Michael Heseltine might at the top,

:57:16.:57:19.

it is way to the right and more Eurosceptic than that major Cabinet

:57:20.:57:23.

that won an overall majority in 1992. Cameron has not changed his

:57:24.:57:27.

party, which is what he started promising to do. I wonder honestly

:57:28.:57:32.

whether being Eurosceptic is right wing any more. What has changed

:57:33.:57:39.

policy wise is that it is a more Eurosceptic Cabinet and it perhaps

:57:40.:57:43.

ever has been under the Tories but look at the Labour benches. What is

:57:44.:57:47.

Labour's response to this, Stephen Richards? I don't know, haven't they

:57:48.:57:52.

put out a line that it has been the purge of the moderates. This should

:57:53.:57:59.

be frightened on one ground, ASH macro they should be, what they need

:58:00.:58:03.

to reflect on is that Cameron, at times, can do the leader role. He is

:58:04.:58:09.

utterly ruthless. He has sacked a lot of people. He has brought about

:58:10.:58:14.

sweeping change. It won't make any practical difference or electoral

:58:15.:58:18.

difference, but he has shown he can rise to these legally challenges, --

:58:19.:58:25.

leadership challenges, and that is one star that Cameron can cling to

:58:26.:58:29.

after all of this. Apart from that, it hasn't made much difference. Has

:58:30.:58:33.

he stored up any trouble for himself, David Cameron with these

:58:34.:58:37.

people going on to the backbenches? Not really. They will make some

:58:38.:58:41.

trouble. Owen Paterson will shout about climbing change but not

:58:42.:58:45.

really. Thank you for being the guest of the day, Paul Coleridge.

:58:46.:58:49.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:50.:58:54.

Andrew and I will be here at 11.30 am tomorrow with Prime

:58:55.:58:57.

Ministers Questions, and all the big political stories of the day.

:58:58.:59:00.

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