03/11/2015 Daily Politics


03/11/2015

Jo Coburn hears from Crispin Blunt, whose influential committee has advised the prime minister not to press ahead with a vote on air strikes in Syria.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Has the Government backed away from plans for a Commons vote on

:00:39.:00:41.

That's the view of several newspapers this morning.

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The first right-to-buy council house was sold back in 1979.

:00:48.:00:53.

As MPs pass plans for a new wave of sales,

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we'll be asking whether it will mean more, or fewer affordable homes.

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The Chancellor is in Berlin, where he's discussing EU

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renegotiation with his German counterpart and calling for a new

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And with bonfire night just around the corner, we'll be talking

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about the 410-year-old plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme, it's the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.

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As a child he said he wanted to be Prime Minister by the age of 70.

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Well, we've checked this morning and at the moment

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the bookies are only offering odds of 100-1 that he'll ever get to

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Number Ten, but there's still plenty of time and an

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appearance on this programme can only help.

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First today, let's talk about George Osborne's trip to Berlin,

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where he's been in talks with the German Finance Minister.

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The visit has been billed as part of the Government's effort to

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renegotiate Britain's relationship with the EU

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and he's been calling for safeguards to protect British businesses

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Let's have a look at his speech to German business

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Today we both have a responsibility also to show economic leadership in

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Europe. For there is a simple truth. We are Europe's engine for jobs and

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for growth. Since the economic crash seven years ago, our two economies

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each expanded by the same 13%. That was George Osborne.

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. Integrated eurozone, surrounded by a

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looser group of countries using their own currency. Is that going to

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be enough to satisfy for people to stay in the EU? We need a more

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fundamental change in our relationship, a significantly looser

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relationship with the European Union and not so much being in a different

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tier as being an associate member who has free trade, but is not tied

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up to the concept of political union and the steps towards that. Right,

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so at the moment, you would vote to withdraw? At the moment, I would

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vote to withdraw. Going on to what George Osborne is talking about with

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his German counterpart, the treaty changes would be the recognition

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that countries should have more than one currency? That's sensible and

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actually the single market is not meant to allow people to

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discriminate on the basis of currency already. So that's already

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in the treaties, that's just changing the wording of something

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that's already there. Amongst your colleagues, are they expecting

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something substantial from the negotiations? The Government has

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amazingly cleverly lowered expectations to a point where if

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they get anything at all, people will be pleasantly surprised. The

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question is whether what they do get in the end is sufficient. Currently

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expectations are on the floor. What about the areas of freedom of

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movement and immigration? For you, is that a must in terms of getting

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some sort of deal for Britain to control or control further its own

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borders? It is absolutely essential. Partly because it is Titanic and it

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is one of the four freedoms and if the member state -- if the EU said

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that a member state could pull out of that, it is not just that the EU

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is demanding different You don't think things. That will happen?

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180,000 economic migrants came from the EU last year. If we don't get

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control of our borders, we will carry on having hundreds of

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thousands coming in. The Prime Minister committed to getting the

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number down to tens of thousands. He is a man who delivers on his

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promise. He didn't in the last Parliament? He wants to try to

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continue try to. He wants to sort out the free movement problem.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz. The question for today is:

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What item has Downing Street reportedly "photo-shopped" on to

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At the end of the show Jacob will gives the correct answer.

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The Times and The Guardian both report this morning that

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the Government has backed away from asking MPs to vote on extending

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Prompted, they say by a combination of a lack of

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parliamentary support and Russia's intervention in the conflict.

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Downing Street has vehemently denied the story,

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saying the Prime Minister's position has always been that he will only

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take the matter to the Commons when he is certain he has a majority.

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Well, our political correspondent Vicki Young is on College Green

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Has the Government changed its position regarding come to go the

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House of Commons, asking for permission to take military action

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in Syria? Well, Downing Street absolutely insist not and maybe Jo

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we shouldn't get too hung up on the language of something being

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abandoned or shelved for good. You think what we can say is when the

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Tories were elected in May, there was real momentum building behind a

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vote in the House of Commons, David Cameron making it very clear

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publicly that was the way he wanted to go. They saw an inconsistency

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between the UK launching bombing raids on Isis over Iraq, but not

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over Syria and they wanted that to change, but the key thing they calls

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talked about was the word consensus, they had to try and get it through

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the House of Commons in a vote. Of course, he has a working majority,

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David Cameron, of about 12ment there are many, many Tories MPs, very,

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very resistant to this, very, very nervous about the idea of us getting

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involved in Syria and complicating the whole matter. So what they have

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been doing is speaking to Labour MPs over the last few months, talks have

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been going on until recently with those in the Labour Party, who felt

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that they might just be able to support the Conservatives on all of

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this. Of course, complicated by the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader

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would mean them defying their leader on this and what seems to have

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happened, there was real momentum behind the move and the momentum has

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gradually faded away. So if I behind the move and the momentum has

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to ask a minister when a vote might behind the move and the momentum has

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be held, what would behind the move and the momentum has

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The answer would be when it could be won. I was

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The answer would be when it could be they said,

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The answer would be when it could be vote." It happened

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The answer would be when it could be don't want David Cameron to be

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humiliated, they think it would have an effect on his

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humiliated, they think it would have world stage. The key thing was they

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had to get the numbers behind them. They simply don't think they are

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there. It has been complicated by there. It has been complicated by

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that made MPs on both sides more nervous about all of this. They

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that made MPs on both sides more think, many of them, that the UK

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needs to concentrate on the diplomatic side

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needs to concentrate on the trying to end the long civil war in

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Syria. Thank you. Let's stick with Syria now,

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as today also sees the publication of a report by the Commons Foreign

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Affairs Select Committee concluding there is no legal or military

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justification for extending air And the chairman of the committee,

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the Conservative MP Crispin Blunt, Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

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Your committee's report gives grist to the stay out of the war mill,

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doesn't it? I think you have overstated what the report actually

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said. The legal basis is questionable. The military

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effectiveness is questionable as well, but probably only marginal and

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it is not going to make a decisive impact on the conflict in Syria. It

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is not as stark... Some members of the Foreign Affairs Committee have

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gone further than you are now? It is not as stark as you're presenting

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it. At some point, the objective has got to be to defeat Isis in both

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Syria and Iraq. That is going to mean the Government coming forward

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and asking permission for military action by British forces in Syria as

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well as Iraq. We gave permission in Iraq and over the last year, that's

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helped stabilise the position in Iraq and hopefully we are in the

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process of stepping up the Iraqi army so it is capable of re-taking

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the ground in Iraq. The position of Syria is more complicated because of

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the presence of the different international actors there. And what

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is necessary is to get a coherent international strategy which will

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then produce a coherent military strategy that can defeat Isis in

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Syria. At some point the Government is going to come forward and ask us

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permission for British forces to be part of that coalition. Our view is

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that should be done when we have a coherent international plan and that

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has got to be the priority now. But are you also saying that the only

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way to defeat Isis is at some stage to have military action? Bombing

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against Isis in Syria, which Britain would be part of? The conventional

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defeat of Isis is going to require a conventional air and land operation

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to defeat Isis on the ground in both Syria and Iraq. Because there is no

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ground capability ready at the minute to take on Isis in Syria. The

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British military contribution is only going to be marginal. We don't

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have anymore aircraft to deploy to the regionment they are already

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fully engaged over Iraq so why draw us in as a combatan into Syria which

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is not going to have any military utility when the real focus has got

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to be on getting a diplomatic strategy going so the Iranians and

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the Saudis get agreed on the strategy. They are difficult to do

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and the Americans and the Russians have to be around the table too. The

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British Government should be knocking heads together to get an

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agreed strategy. By staying out of Syria for a prolonged period of time

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and I take your point about making sure other things are in place

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before there was any action, by Britain, doesn't it ensure that the

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diplomatic negotiations and any settlement in the region is skewed

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in favour of Russian and Iranian interests? Those interests are going

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to have to be recognised. It doesn't mean that they have got it

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compromise as well. There will be less pressure on them to do so and

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the momentum will be with them? The dynamics have changed and that's the

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reason we have talks in Vienna. The Iranians committed ground forces and

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if there is no transition out of the civil war, they need an exit route

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from this as much as anybody else. Do you accept the impact of your

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report could be to actually push any decision by the Government to bring

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that vote to the House of Commons way down the line? Well, I hope it

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pushes it down the line and... We need to defeat Isis. That's going to

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require a coherent international strategy. I want the Government to

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come forward to ask permission to use British military forces when

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there is a coherent international strategy. It is the absence of that

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that means we can't get on and take on Isis. Where do you stand? Should

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David Cameron come to the House of Commons in the near future asking

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for permission? Not immediately after the Foreign Affairs Select

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Committee has come out with the report saying this would not serve a

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purpose. This would not be respectful to the House of Commons.

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It is a highly respected committee. They are the experts in this field

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in the House of Commons and if that's the view they have come to,

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that will weigh heavily with members of Parliament. Right, it is a

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numbers game though? We heard from our correspondent too and even the

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Government has been fairly candid that they are not going to try for a

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second vote in the House of Commons unless they have the numbers to

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actually pass it. But it ought to be more than that. I agree with what

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Crispin is saying. It is not that we are going to bomb sairia because we

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don't like Assad. It has got to be we're going to do something that's

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beneficial and will resolve the problem or help resolve the problem

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and it should be done and brought to the House of Commons when the

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Government can make a case that it will be really effective. Not just

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because it thinks on a quiet Thursday afternoon enough people

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might be in their constituencies to get it through. Presumably the

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Government thinks it has got a case, it doesn't want to bring the vote to

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the House because it won't win if it can't persuade enough Labour and

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Tory MPs to vote in favour of it? Well if it has got a case, it hasn't

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been making it strongly. We have got the report now saying something

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different and the Government needs to counter that. I think, a lot of

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MPs will make up their minds on the basis of the arguments that they are

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not determined one way or another until they know what the balance of

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argument is I think this Foreign Affairs Select Committee report will

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be one of the most important Select Committee reports in this

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Parliament. Right. Has the Russian involvement completely changed the

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game here? In effect, yes because the Russians have now by their

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commitment have made it clear that the Assad regime is not going to be

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knocked over. It looked as though the Syrian Government was bleeding

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to death. It was taking a long time about it and a lot of people were

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getting killed in the process, but the Russian and Iranian commitment

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has meant that in effect, the Assad regime is going to survive, that's a

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reality on the ground and will continue to be so whilst the

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Russians commit. But that commitment will be endless because the

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opposition to the Assad regime is not going to go away and what's

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required is for that opposition and the regime to come to a deal about

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how the Syrian civil war is to end, what the transition arrangements are

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to be and then those people who are always going to reject a deal which

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will be the Islamist rejectionists, Isis and the Al-Qaeda associated

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forces, they will then become the enemy of everybody and then we can

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all then set-up a strategy to take rest control of those bits of Syria

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that they hold from them. Just briefly, did you interview and

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question ministers during this report? Yes, we took evidence from

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the Foreign Secretary, yes. Just the Foreign Secretary? No, we took

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evidence from the Foreign Secretary, we took evidence from the

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Government's Middle East advisor and we had, and it is part of an on

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going inquiry into the strategy against Isil. It is a narrow

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question this. What the British House of Commons does about eight

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British aeroplanes is a rather marginal issue when set against the

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whole coalition operation and the conduct of international strategy.

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Military involvement would be minimal, wouldn't it? Yes.

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Sepp Now should the Government

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re-introduce national tests That's the subject of a consultation

:16:19.:16:20.

being announced today by the education secretary Nicky Morgan,

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who wants to look at replacing the current system of informal

:16:24.:16:25.

testing introduced under Labour. Let's have a listen to Nicky Morgan

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speaking earlier. I want it make sure primary schools

:16:28.:16:32.

and headteachers are being held to account in the right way. In a way

:16:33.:16:36.

that's fair and rewards those who take on a challenge. New more

:16:37.:16:39.

rigorous SATs are being introduced at the end of primary school and the

:16:40.:16:42.

new reception baseline assessment has been introduced in primary

:16:43.:16:45.

schools this year. But to be really confident that students are grossing

:16:46.:16:47.

well through primary school, we will be looking at the assessment of

:16:48.:16:51.

pupils at the age of seven to make sure it is robust and rigorous, as

:16:52.:16:53.

it needs to be. We're joined now by the Schools

:16:54.:16:55.

Minister, Nick Gibb. The NUT says you are turning schools

:16:56.:17:06.

into exam factories making teachers teach to the tests. You will have

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heard these criticisms before. But now you are going a step further to

:17:10.:17:15.

formalise the tests. What do you say in response? There are already tests

:17:16.:17:19.

at seven. We want to work with teachers to make sure they are as

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rigorous and robust as possible to use the results to measure progress

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the children make in the next four years up to key stage 2. Can you not

:17:29.:17:32.

do that already? We can't because we don't collect the data from those

:17:33.:17:36.

tests. That's one issue but we want to look at the detail with teachers,

:17:37.:17:42.

it is about helping schools be held accountable in a fair way that

:17:43.:17:46.

reflects the challenges they have with their intake, so they are held

:17:47.:17:49.

accountable in a fair way. That's what we are trying to achieve. I

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know with my own children, the tests at the moment are informal and at

:17:54.:17:58.

the age of seven you don't want a formal testing on them, the burden,

:17:59.:18:04.

you don't want them to get worried. Teachers complain time is spent,

:18:05.:18:07.

taken out of the school day, to target these tests, instead of

:18:08.:18:09.

teaching in the round? Well that's not the right approach. A friend of

:18:10.:18:15.

mine was telling me their child came home from school a seven-year-old

:18:16.:18:21.

and he asked how he had done in the test and he said "what tests? "

:18:22.:18:24.

That's how good schools use the tests. It is important to identify

:18:25.:18:28.

the children who are struggling. We want to ensure our schools system

:18:29.:18:32.

are delivering excellence everywhere and every child is stretched to the

:18:33.:18:35.

full potential and struggling children are helped if they are

:18:36.:18:38.

falling behind. Is there evidence at the age of seven you can take that

:18:39.:18:42.

sort of broad measure and predict how the child is going to do in

:18:43.:18:47.

five, ten years' time, they do develop at ditch rates, don't they?

:18:48.:18:52.

They do. It is not about the child at seven, assessing the child

:18:53.:18:54.

itself. It is about measuring progress. You need a starting point.

:18:55.:18:58.

The tests for seven-year-olds, woented be published on a

:18:59.:19:02.

school-by-school basis. They won't reflect the future of the child. --

:19:03.:19:06.

won't be published. It is a baseline for measuring progress. The fairest

:19:07.:19:13.

way to hold schools to account. How supportives are teachers and

:19:14.:19:16.

teaching unions? You have heard the comments from some of the unions. My

:19:17.:19:20.

understaunding when I meet some teachers is they want the best for

:19:21.:19:23.

every child. Do you think this will be the best way to do it? We want to

:19:24.:19:28.

constult with teachers to make sure the way we develop these tests is

:19:29.:19:32.

something we can use to help the teaching profession. Does it have

:19:33.:19:38.

your support? Yes it does. You should understand. I'm also liking

:19:39.:19:47.

of the Jess waits, give me a boy the a seven and I will give you a man

:19:48.:19:52.

of the Jess waits, give me a boy the When they come out at 11, it

:19:53.:19:52.

determines how they will When they come out at 11, it

:19:53.:19:57.

GCSEs. If they don't get there at 11 If they do, half get

:19:58.:20:05.

GCSEs. If they don't get there at 11 if they get beyond t 09% will

:20:06.:20:08.

GCSEs. If they don't get there at 11 beyond T getting it right in the

:20:09.:20:11.

early years is a key objective. If you find that teaches and schools

:20:12.:20:15.

decide they don't really want to go down that route, at a time when

:20:16.:20:18.

decide they don't really want to go wanted to give more autonomy to

:20:19.:20:20.

schools, shouldn't they be the one who is decide? I think there

:20:21.:20:24.

schools, shouldn't they be the one role for the state to hold schools

:20:25.:20:25.

for account for the pay role for the state to hold schools

:20:26.:20:28.

tax payers' money to ensure every child gets the best chance in life.

:20:29.:20:31.

A legitimate role. We child gets the best chance in life.

:20:32.:20:34.

the terms with child gets the best chance in life.

:20:35.:20:36.

profession to make sure they do have their support. What about the

:20:37.:20:41.

shortage of teachers? The statistics are showing quite serious shortages

:20:42.:20:44.

in particular subjects. And it is going to take many years for those

:20:45.:20:49.

gaps to be filled. Isn't that a much greater priority? It is a priority

:20:50.:20:52.

fted dope. There are 455,000 teachers, the highest number of

:20:53.:20:56.

teachers we have ever had. It is 1,000 more than we had in 2010. The

:20:57.:21:01.

short fall when we have a growing population, a growing school

:21:02.:21:05.

population, they show 57% recruitment short fall in design and

:21:06.:21:09.

technology and a short fall in religious education. It goes on.

:21:10.:21:12.

Less in music teachers but still short falls, even down to geography,

:21:13.:21:17.

maths and English. That's much more seriously than formalising tests at

:21:18.:21:21.

the age of seven, surely? The vacancy rate is under 1%. We don't

:21:22.:21:25.

underestimate the challenge. When you have a strong and growing

:21:26.:21:28.

economy, of course there is going to be demand for graduates leaving

:21:29.:21:31.

universities but we are making progress. The numbers starting

:21:32.:21:35.

teacher training this year is 3% up on last year. There are some

:21:36.:21:39.

shortage subjects where we will struggle and we have for many years,

:21:40.:21:44.

to recruit but not every new teacher coming into teaching comes through

:21:45.:21:48.

the teacher training colleges. A lot of teachers starting are returners

:21:49.:21:51.

coming back into schoo.s we are introducing generous bursaries for

:21:52.:21:55.

physics and maths graduates and shortage be subjects like foreign

:21:56.:21:59.

language and English. We are having an effective advertising campaign.

:22:00.:22:03.

We are engaging in every possible policy... Well you sound like you

:22:04.:22:08.

are. Briefly, Nicky Morgan is she working better with the blob as

:22:09.:22:12.

Michael Gove called it? Well Nicky Morgan is determined to continue the

:22:13.:22:19.

reform process to ensure high standards. We wantical educational

:22:20.:22:24.

intelligence everywhere. She's continuing great work that has

:22:25.:22:27.

happened over the last five years, and we are moving it further forward

:22:28.:22:35.

for new test muty polycation tests. More homework for parents, I think.

:22:36.:22:38.

Yesterday MPs voted to agree on the Government's Housing

:22:39.:22:40.

and Planning Bill which will extend the right-to-buy

:22:41.:22:42.

It was a promise made by the Conservatives during the general

:22:43.:22:45.

election campaign, but didn't find favour on all sides of the house.

:22:46.:22:48.

Could the Secretary of State explain how selling housing association

:22:49.:22:59.

properties, subsidising that sale by selling council properties - half

:23:00.:23:02.

the stock in the case of my local authority - reducing local authority

:23:03.:23:05.

incomes to build properties by reducing rent and allowing

:23:06.:23:08.

developers to get away without building any social homes, how does

:23:09.:23:12.

that help the thousands of people in housing need in my constituency?

:23:13.:23:15.

I'll come on to address the points that the

:23:16.:23:19.

honourable gentlemen makes but I would say at this point, the reason

:23:20.:23:22.

it helps, is we are requiring that there is a new home built for every

:23:23.:23:26.

That will improve the housing stock in London.

:23:27.:23:32.

Given that the Bill fails to include any legal commitment to replace

:23:33.:23:36.

social homes that are sold under right-to-buy on a one-to-one basis,

:23:37.:23:40.

will he accept that selling off valuable council homes to fund the

:23:41.:23:45.

extension of right-to-buy, means we are losing two social homes to rent,

:23:46.:23:48.

in return for one social home to buy, that's an overall loss.

:23:49.:23:53.

The rate of additional stock that is being provided, in response to the

:23:54.:23:58.

reinvigorated council right-to-buy, is running at over one-for-one

:23:59.:24:05.

and the agreement that we have been able to reach with the housing

:24:06.:24:12.

associations makes it very clear - and if the honourable lady hasn't

:24:13.:24:15.

had a copy of that, I will make sure she has a copy -

:24:16.:24:18.

that these homes will be replaced on at least a one-for-one basis.

:24:19.:24:21.

The homes continue to be occupied, it is an additional home that is

:24:22.:24:26.

So that was a flavour of yesterday's Commons debate.

:24:27.:24:42.

Well we asked a government minister to come on

:24:43.:24:44.

and talk about their plans, but were told none was available.

:24:45.:24:47.

But worry not as we're joined by the Shadow Housing Minister John

:24:48.:24:49.

Healey, and our guest of the day Jacob Rees-Mogg is still here.

:24:50.:24:52.

John Healey more starter homes, powers to tackle rogue landlords and

:24:53.:24:57.

powers to the planning system to allow more homes to be built. What

:24:58.:25:01.

do you not like? Starter homes will be a non-starter for most families

:25:02.:25:04.

and young people on organised incomes. So they will miss the very

:25:05.:25:08.

group that the Conservatives say they are trying to help. The

:25:09.:25:14.

clamp-down on rogue landlords is good as far as it goes, but it is

:25:15.:25:21.

much too little to deal with many of the problems and pressures people

:25:22.:25:24.

have in the private rented sector and we have 11 million people now

:25:25.:25:28.

living in the private rented sector and no mention of course of them at

:25:29.:25:31.

all in the Conservative manifesto. This is a Bill that needs to be

:25:32.:25:35.

changed big style, it as goes through Parliament, if it is going

:25:36.:25:39.

to do the job to help meet the wide housing need that we have in this

:25:40.:25:43.

country for all types of homes. Right, I mean there is a serious

:25:44.:25:46.

housing crisis in this country. All sides of the House agree with that.

:25:47.:25:50.

Should the focus really be on selling off council homes, to fund

:25:51.:25:55.

schemes like extending right-to-buy. You know, should it really be about

:25:56.:25:59.

first-time buyers, helping them to buy houses of up to ?450,000, which

:26:00.:26:06.

is out of the reach of most people? Selling council homes is a really

:26:07.:26:11.

sensible thing to do. That the same people carry on living in those

:26:12.:26:15.

properties. That you still have people living in the homes they

:26:16.:26:18.

bought when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister. The idea that the

:26:19.:26:21.

home is taking out of the housing stock is fundamentally false. I

:26:22.:26:27.

think it makes this debate misleading, it leads to

:26:28.:26:29.

misunderstandings. The key is going to be building. Pricing, in all

:26:30.:26:34.

markets, is set at the margin where, supply and demand do not meet. And

:26:35.:26:38.

because supply is not meeting demand, house prices in this country

:26:39.:26:42.

are very high. If we can build more houses, increase the supply to meet

:26:43.:26:46.

the demand, then price also level off. We will come to the prices. But

:26:47.:26:50.

let's go back to the issue about selling off council homes. Because

:26:51.:26:53.

it is very controversial but it was something that previous Labour

:26:54.:26:57.

governments also persued and thought was a good idea. The problem with

:26:58.:27:04.

Jacob Rees-Mogg's argument is four out of ten every council houses sold

:27:05.:27:08.

are not bought to live in but bought to let. And that's what happened.

:27:09.:27:12.

The second big problem, over the last five years, the council homes

:27:13.:27:17.

that have been sold, have not been replaced one-for-one as the

:27:18.:27:19.

Government promised but nine sold for every one replaced. That problem

:27:20.:27:24.

is likely to get worse, as we heard yesterday in the Commons. False sale

:27:25.:27:28.

of council homes -- forced sale of council homes in order to pay for

:27:29.:27:32.

the ex-tense of the right-to-buy for housing association tennants. It

:27:33.:27:35.

will be a huge let down for the tennants who believe they have a

:27:36.:27:39.

chance of their own home and a huge loss of affordable homes across the

:27:40.:27:42.

country. Why shouldn't there be a legal requirement to replace or make

:27:43.:27:46.

sure that any home lost is replaced by another affordable or council

:27:47.:27:50.

home? I don't think it is necessarily. The Government has made

:27:51.:27:54.

that commitment. On the house that is go into the private rented

:27:55.:27:59.

sector... They haven't made a legal requirement. Hold on a second.

:28:00.:28:04.

Should it be a legal requirement? They have not made that commitment.

:28:05.:28:07.

I don't believe a legal requirement is necessary. The thing is, when

:28:08.:28:11.

people let out their house in the private rented sector, a lot of that

:28:12.:28:16.

may then be paid for through housing benefit, so there is support for

:28:17.:28:19.

people who have homes and there are two different ways of doing it. One

:28:20.:28:23.

is through private sector and housing benefit. The other is

:28:24.:28:27.

through socially subsidised housing. Neither is intrisically morally

:28:28.:28:30.

better. Both provide housing for people. One meets the immediate

:28:31.:28:34.

needs of people, allows for greater moeblted and that's housing benefit.

:28:35.:28:38.

The other provides greater security of tenure. And I don't think there

:28:39.:28:43.

is a solution that is purely social housing or purely housing benefit. I

:28:44.:28:46.

think the mix is about right. Well, if we don't want to talk which is

:28:47.:28:51.

better morally, let's at least talk what is better value for the

:28:52.:28:58.

taxpayer? It is clear if you invest public money and invest in new homes

:28:59.:29:02.

and rent the them at a social housing level, you can recycle on

:29:03.:29:06.

the benefits and stop the housing benefits bill soaring through the

:29:07.:29:09.

roof as it has done over the last five years. It is much better value

:29:10.:29:14.

for tennants and tax payers. It is not necessarily better value for

:29:15.:29:17.

money because you are ignoring the sunk cost of the capital investment

:29:18.:29:20.

which you would expect to get a return on. Governments have a choice

:29:21.:29:26.

between day-to-day expenditure and capital expenditure but both have a

:29:27.:29:30.

cost. Can I put to you there are many Tory MPs, enough, probably, to

:29:31.:29:34.

get the legislation through, who are unhappy about the idea of councils

:29:35.:29:43.

being forced to sell off their big expensive council house properties,

:29:44.:29:46.

which isn't used to... Boys Johnson one.

:29:47.:29:52.

. . Councils should not own high value properties. It is about

:29:53.:29:56.

providing housing. It is not about owning properties. As Westminster

:29:57.:30:01.

Council used to do a few hundred yards from here. Smith Square, they

:30:02.:30:05.

were owned by the council. Multi-million pound houses, it is

:30:06.:30:08.

crazy, of course they should be sold. What about the private sector,

:30:09.:30:13.

what would you like to see done to help people who are paying expensive

:30:14.:30:16.

rents, paying for it themselves, can't get council housing or some

:30:17.:30:19.

sorts of subsidised housing. What should be done? At least three

:30:20.:30:23.

things. First, you have to start from the point that our tennants in

:30:24.:30:29.

the private rent sector have a very poor set of rights as consumers.

:30:30.:30:33.

Fist of all, there ought to be a standard length of tenancy for three

:30:34.:30:38.

years, then there ought to be a break on an agreement about the rent

:30:39.:30:41.

rises through that period and there ought to be a clear obligation, with

:30:42.:30:45.

ways of redress for those people who can't get their landlords to repair

:30:46.:30:50.

the windows, deal with the mould and dotted proper job they had should be

:30:51.:30:53.

doing if they are responsible landlords. Do the proper job. Do you

:30:54.:30:57.

doing if they are responsible agree your Government is focussing

:30:58.:30:57.

It is Her Majesty's Government, not much more on home-ownership.

:30:58.:31:03.

It is Her Majesty's Government, not mine, home ownership should remain

:31:04.:31:05.

the focus of Government policy, mine, home ownership should remain

:31:06.:31:06.

on the private rented mine, home ownership should remain

:31:07.:31:09.

have a choice between a flexible mine, home ownership should remain

:31:10.:31:14.

that it does and a highly regulated one and we have tried this before

:31:15.:31:16.

through the 60s and the 70s, one and we have tried this before

:31:17.:31:23.

a very regulated, but small regulated sector. We have a large

:31:24.:31:26.

unregulated one. regulated sector. We have a large

:31:27.:31:29.

things that need to be adjusted in favour of the tenants, but if too

:31:30.:31:33.

much is done, there won't be the properties. They have got their own

:31:34.:31:40.

track record, five years of failure. Home ownership has fallen through

:31:41.:31:46.

the floor since 2010. Jacob wasn't in the chamber yesterday, I heard

:31:47.:31:50.

concern from Conservative in the chamber yesterday, I heard

:31:51.:31:51.

about the Bill. About starter homes in the chamber yesterday, I heard

:31:52.:32:00.

which would be beyond reach of many ordinary

:32:01.:32:05.

which would be beyond reach of many to impose

:32:06.:32:09.

even if local people have decided they don't want them this. Is

:32:10.:32:13.

even if local people have decided Conservative Party and even the Tory

:32:14.:32:16.

mayoral candidate for London, said Conservative Party and even the Tory

:32:17.:32:19.

he couldn't support the Bill unless it was amended. It is a slow burn

:32:20.:32:23.

he couldn't support the Bill unless problem which will go to 2020.

:32:24.:32:28.

Now let's stick with talking about property, but move to

:32:29.:32:30.

In his Autumn Statement last year George Osborne made a series

:32:31.:32:34.

of reforms to the way property taxes work including a substantial

:32:35.:32:37.

hike on the stamp duty paid on homes worth more ?1.5 million.

:32:38.:32:40.

Some saw it as an attempt to frustrate Labour and the Lib Dems

:32:41.:32:43.

And it's apparently having an effect on the sales of the UK's

:32:44.:32:47.

I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk

:32:48.:32:58.

Gordon Brown, in his first Budget as Chancellor, introducing

:32:59.:33:05.

Stuck 2% on purposes of a property worth more than ?500,000.

:33:06.:33:09.

Fast-forward 17 years and you have a Conservative Chancellor tinkering

:33:10.:33:11.

It's time we fundamentally changed this badly-designed tax

:33:12.:33:18.

George Osborne said his changes would cut stamp duty

:33:19.:33:22.

for 98% of home buyers in last year's Autumn Statement.

:33:23.:33:25.

But it came at the expense of those at the higher end

:33:26.:33:28.

Properties worth more than ?1.5 million were in for a 12% tax bill.

:33:29.:33:35.

So I've worked out you only need to spend about ?2.5 million - evidently

:33:36.:33:46.

not that hard to do here in London - to be landed with a stamp duty bill

:33:47.:33:51.

that's worth more than the entire amount I spent on my small flat.

:33:52.:33:54.

Industry types say such high stamp duty bills have slowed

:33:55.:33:57.

down the market at the higher end and that will affect the amount

:33:58.:34:00.

We've looked at the tax take between January and July

:34:01.:34:09.

of this year and yes, the tax take is down in the prime central London

:34:10.:34:13.

boroughs of Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster.

:34:14.:34:14.

And I think looking at last year's figures,

:34:15.:34:16.

we saw a slowdown in terms of the revenue being created in those

:34:17.:34:19.

boroughs, but it is the rest of the country, so in essence the prime end

:34:20.:34:23.

The tax take is slowing and you could argue to some extent the

:34:24.:34:29.

The Chancellor's changes came months before the general election with

:34:30.:34:36.

the backdrop of Labour's mansion tax proposals.

:34:37.:34:40.

The decision may have been as much about politics as it was economics.

:34:41.:34:43.

The Chancellor and his ministers will muse on the question of whether

:34:44.:34:47.

it is worth losing ?2 or ?3 billion worth of stamp duty on houses at

:34:48.:34:54.

that are very expensive in order to be off the hook of the embarrassment

:34:55.:34:57.

of endless stories about how rich people are coming from overseas

:34:58.:35:00.

If that stops, they might think it is a price worth paying.

:35:01.:35:05.

The Treasury has downgraded its forecast for the amount

:35:06.:35:08.

of revenue stamp duty will bring in in the last year of this Parliament,

:35:09.:35:12.

And it could be a slightly quieter autumn for some estate agents.

:35:13.:35:22.

Ellie there taking a look at the effect of the stamp tax changes.

:35:23.:35:25.

So let's remind ourselves how stamp duty currently works.

:35:26.:35:27.

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland you must

:35:28.:35:30.

pay stamp duty land tax - stamp duty for short - if you buy a property.

:35:31.:35:34.

Until last December, it charged successively higher rates

:35:35.:35:37.

on the whole of the purchase price, a structure which saw it known

:35:38.:35:41.

But in the 2014 Autumn Statement Chancellor George Osborne announced

:35:42.:35:47.

a reform of stamp duty after criticising what he called a

:35:48.:35:50.

Under the new staggered system, stamp duty only applied to

:35:51.:35:58.

the amount of a property purchase price that falls

:35:59.:36:00.

So up to ?125,000, you don't pay anything.

:36:01.:36:15.

Then on the value between ?125,000 and ?250,000, you pay 2%.

:36:16.:36:18.

Between ?250,000 and ?925,000, you pay 5%.

:36:19.:36:23.

Between ?925,000 and ?1.5 million, you pay 10%.

:36:24.:36:26.

And on the remaining amount, that's anything above ?1.5 million,

:36:27.:36:28.

Got it? Most homebuyers benefited, but those who fell

:36:29.:36:39.

If you spend ?2.1 million on a home, instead of the ?147,000 you paid

:36:40.:36:45.

And the rates are lower in Scotland, where a Land and

:36:46.:36:57.

Buildings Transaction Tax was introduced in April this year.

:36:58.:36:59.

Well, we're joined now by the Guardian columnist

:37:00.:37:01.

Owen Jones, and our guest of the day Jacob Rees Mogg is still here.

:37:02.:37:07.

We're not letting him go. Why is it bad economics to charge people

:37:08.:37:13.

buying houses over ?2 million higher rates of stamp duty? Because it is

:37:14.:37:18.

reducing revenue for the Government. Taxes should be set to raise money

:37:19.:37:22.

for the Government to afford to do what it needs to do. And if you set

:37:23.:37:26.

rates that are so high that you don't get that revenue, that is

:37:27.:37:31.

unwise, but on top of that, you're also reducing the flexibility of the

:37:32.:37:35.

market. You want markets to have transactions. You want people to be

:37:36.:37:39.

able to move. You actually want foreign billionaires to think it is

:37:40.:37:42.

a good idea to buy property in London because they come here and

:37:43.:37:47.

they spend money and we earn a huge amount of invincible earnings from

:37:48.:37:50.

the spending of foreigners in the United Kingdom. So you make it

:37:51.:37:55.

harder for people to buy properties, you discourage high end transactions

:37:56.:37:57.

and you have an effect down the pyramid and you get less tax

:37:58.:38:02.

revenues for it. So this maybe passable politics, but it is not

:38:03.:38:06.

good economics. Do you think it is just about politics? This was George

:38:07.:38:10.

Osborne trying to show he would be fairer when it came to stamp duty It

:38:11.:38:14.

is probably in response to the so-called mansion tax, the gimmicky

:38:15.:38:19.

policy Labour stole off the Lib Dems during the general election.

:38:20.:38:22.

However, I mean, you know, I know you're trying to get me to defend

:38:23.:38:27.

George Osborne against one of his backbenchers. I don't like stamp

:38:28.:38:32.

duty. I would get rid of it and replace tax, it is a regressive tax

:38:33.:38:37.

and it is bad for low and middle income tax with a land value tax, we

:38:38.:38:40.

should tax the value of the land. It is an old idea, it goes back to the

:38:41.:38:45.

well-known lefty, the economist Adam Smith in countries like Denmark, and

:38:46.:38:52.

Hong Kong operate this, Pennsylvania in America, we could go on. It is a

:38:53.:38:56.

better system, what is unfair at the moment is if you're rich and you

:38:57.:39:01.

happen to live in an area which is desirable, you will accrue a huge

:39:02.:39:04.

amount of wealth, not from your own efforts, but because you are living

:39:05.:39:09.

in a desirable area. If you are a private renter of which there are 11

:39:10.:39:12.

million, your rents are being hiked up. If you want a council house, you

:39:13.:39:17.

are languishing on society house waiting list, there are five million

:39:18.:39:21.

in that position now. The whole housing crisis, we need to build

:39:22.:39:24.

housing and regulate the private rented sector and when it kms to

:39:25.:39:27.

home ownership, unthis Government, it has fallen. There is 250,000

:39:28.:39:38.

fewer homeowners. I think we can promote home ownership, build

:39:39.:39:44.

council housing. It goes against the grain for Conservatives over home

:39:45.:39:46.

ownership if there are fewer people owning their own homes. Most people,

:39:47.:39:50.

I would put to you, watching this will say who cares whether rich

:39:51.:39:54.

oligarchs are finding it more difficult to come and buy top end

:39:55.:39:57.

homes here in London? That's a good thing. I completely understand that

:39:58.:40:03.

rich oligarchs are not the most popular constituency to defend. Well

:40:04.:40:07.

done for having a go. The question is whether by attacking them or

:40:08.:40:11.

viewing them as being the opponent, you take decisions that are

:40:12.:40:15.

economically disadvantageous down the housing pyramid and I think

:40:16.:40:20.

stamp duty at 5% above ?250,000 is very high. It is a big burden for

:40:21.:40:27.

people moving within family homes. I would argue from a more progressive

:40:28.:40:34.

value-added tax. In term of foreign ownership, I don't know what the

:40:35.:40:37.

figures are now, but a couple of years ago, it was estimated out out

:40:38.:40:43.

of ten new build properties were being snapped up by foreign buyers,

:40:44.:40:47.

they are often left vacant and empty at a time when lots of people can't

:40:48.:40:51.

get a home and that's pushing up prices and making it unaffordable

:40:52.:40:54.

for the average homebuyer because prices are unaffordable. I don't

:40:55.:40:57.

agree with that. Which bit don't you agree? The reason the prices are

:40:58.:41:02.

going up is because we are not building enough houses and there is

:41:03.:41:04.

a lack of supply and we need to tackle that. A lot of existing

:41:05.:41:08.

properties in London are owned by local people who are also finding it

:41:09.:41:12.

harder to move because of this tax. But it is reducing revenue for the

:41:13.:41:16.

exchequer, so the Government is limited in what it is able to do. I

:41:17.:41:26.

don't support that. There are difficulties can capital taxation,

:41:27.:41:30.

except where there is a transaction, there is no flow of income to pay

:41:31.:41:34.

the tax from and therefore, you force people to make inefficient

:41:35.:41:38.

decisions in terms of their allocation of capital. The whole

:41:39.:41:42.

property speculation market led people to cash in on their assets

:41:43.:41:46.

while twiddling their thumbs rather than through work? The assumption

:41:47.:41:49.

that house prices will rise forever is not a correct one. We have seen

:41:50.:41:54.

periods in the past when property prices collapsed. Has the Government

:41:55.:41:58.

not fuelled that? The Government should not be in the business in

:41:59.:42:01.

trying it get house prices to go up or down. We have seen that type of

:42:02.:42:04.

demand price management from Governments in the past and it is a

:42:05.:42:09.

very... Your Government, is doing that. For example, Right to Buy,

:42:10.:42:18.

that gimmicky scheme is pushing up house prices and your Government is

:42:19.:42:22.

catastrophicically failing to build housing in this country. Well, it is

:42:23.:42:26.

getting better from the last Government as you know perfectly

:42:27.:42:29.

well. Your Government has been in power for over five years. Planning

:42:30.:42:33.

is a slow system, but it is getting there. The Government is doing... We

:42:34.:42:36.

need to be building there. The Government is doing... We

:42:37.:42:43.

year. The record was lamentable under Labour too The

:42:44.:42:47.

year. The record was lamentable the economic model that your

:42:48.:42:48.

chancellor has, we have an economic model based on inflated house prices

:42:49.:42:53.

which leads to huge economic instability as we

:42:54.:42:54.

which leads to huge economic past. Now what we should be doing is

:42:55.:42:59.

giving councils the power to build housing, it will create jobs and

:43:00.:43:01.

brick housing, it will create jobs and

:43:02.:43:04.

as well as reduce the waiting lists housing, it will create jobs and

:43:05.:43:09.

sector, let's look at home ownership. Looking at for example

:43:10.:43:11.

stamp duty, replacing it with a progressive tax like land value tax.

:43:12.:43:13.

You had the progressive tax like land value tax.

:43:14.:43:21.

will make sure he doesn't. Now Labour's economic policy under

:43:22.:43:23.

Jeremy Corbyn and Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell is still a work

:43:24.:43:26.

in progress, but they've set out some of the broad principles that

:43:27.:43:29.

separate the party under its new Here's Mr Corbyn speaking at his

:43:30.:43:32.

party conference back in September. The many with little or nothing, are

:43:33.:43:36.

told they live in a global economy They must accept the place assigned

:43:37.:43:42.

to them by competitive markets. By the way, isn't it really curious

:43:43.:43:47.

that globalisation seems to always mean low wages for the poor people

:43:48.:43:50.

but always used to justify massive payments for top chief executives

:43:51.:43:54.

of global corporations? Our Labour Party came

:43:55.:43:59.

into being more than a century ago, Well, one figure we recognise from

:44:00.:44:11.

before the Corbyn era is the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury

:44:12.:44:20.

under Gordon Brown, Liam Byrne, and today he's been offering his own

:44:21.:44:23.

thoughts on where Labour's economic policy should go next, he's calling

:44:24.:44:26.

it "entrepreneurial socialism". So, you have set out in a speech

:44:27.:44:41.

what you have called an alternative economic strategy. What is your

:44:42.:44:44.

message to the Labour Leadership? My first message is to the Labour

:44:45.:44:48.

Party. Which is that we have to respect Jeremy's mandate and his

:44:49.:44:51.

mantra, that the fight against inequality has to be centre stage in

:44:52.:44:57.

our politics. Jeremy has set out during his leadership campaign, a

:44:58.:45:01.

lot on which we agree. Tax Jews particulars welfare efficiency,

:45:02.:45:03.

industrial policy, green strategy. There are a if you things, though --

:45:04.:45:06.

tax justice. There are a few things that are risk

:45:07.:45:13.

failure. I'm not a fan of quantitative easing. Printing money

:45:14.:45:19.

when the economy is growing. Not a fan of wholesale nationalisation.

:45:20.:45:25.

Those are the planks from which his economic policy would spring

:45:26.:45:28.

forward. You will disagree with the basics? He has called for real

:45:29.:45:35.

debate. After top-down politics for 20 years, it is a breath of fresh

:45:36.:45:40.

air which is welcome. There is a different approach no rewriting

:45:41.:45:43.

rules of some institutions like Bank of England, capital markets, science

:45:44.:45:46.

poll circumstances National Curriculum and Social Security

:45:47.:45:49.

system. I guess what I'm saying to my wivengt party, if you like, is we

:45:50.:45:53.

have to get with the programme now, to my wing of the party. We have to

:45:54.:45:57.

fight against the progress of equality. And if we have better

:45:58.:46:01.

ideas, let's put them on the table and add to the debate. You have

:46:02.:46:05.

better ideas, you think in the round than the current leadership. How are

:46:06.:46:09.

you going to persuade them? Well, my arguing the corner. They have the

:46:10.:46:13.

mandate. And in fact we have made from John McDonnell that he agrees

:46:14.:46:17.

watch of what you say but you have to go in his direction? I think the

:46:18.:46:22.

whole of the party has actually got to focus on the central ground that

:46:23.:46:28.

Jeremy has mapped out, reversing the spiralling inequality spiralling the

:46:29.:46:30.

country. But to be fair to Jeremy and John they have called for an

:46:31.:46:35.

open debate and we have to get stuck into the debate on the terms Jeremy

:46:36.:46:40.

has set out. Jeremy Corbyn declined an to speak at the CBI annual

:46:41.:46:44.

conference. Do you think it would have been better to him and for

:46:45.:46:47.

Labour to engage with business at that level? Well, look, I used to be

:46:48.:46:51.

in business before I went into politics. I was was intren air

:46:52.:46:55.

before I got elected in 2004. I do think it is a good idea to engage in

:46:56.:46:59.

business for this reason - entrepreneur. I think there is a

:47:00.:47:06.

widespread view in the business economy that inequality is hurting

:47:07.:47:10.

growth and we need to work with those who want to change things. How

:47:11.:47:15.

big a mistake was it for him not to g the Shadow Chancellor and Shadow

:47:16.:47:18.

Business Secretary? Nobody wanted to speak to the CBI I think it would

:47:19.:47:23.

have been better to go but I don't think it is a massive dee. You said

:47:24.:47:28.

in your introe, our economic policy is a work in progress. I would get

:47:29.:47:32.

across this message, there are lots of people in the business community

:47:33.:47:37.

who want to cre create wealth and social justice. We need to embrace

:47:38.:47:42.

with them H Are you worried, you are not, you have set out an alternative

:47:43.:47:47.

and are getting stuck in. Some of the fears expressed by parliamentary

:47:48.:47:50.

colleagues of your on this programme is that by not falling into line

:47:51.:47:55.

with the new Labour leadership on a range of issues, you may be the sort

:47:56.:47:59.

of candidate who could face a challenge of deselection when it

:48:00.:48:02.

comes to the boundaries being redrawn? I don't worry about that. I

:48:03.:48:07.

think we have to, in the parliamentary Parliament, listen to

:48:08.:48:10.

the mandate Jeremy has been given and the man trashing the central

:48:11.:48:15.

battle is the battle for ideas in reversing spiralling inequality and

:48:16.:48:18.

we have to look at the best ideas possible. To express that unionivity

:48:19.:48:21.

purpose, I have said we need to rewrite clause 4 our aims and values

:48:22.:48:26.

to put the fight of Ian quality centre stage and to say to everybody

:48:27.:48:30.

on the party but the country beyond, we are all on the same side. The

:48:31.:48:35.

reason why both Jeremy Corbyn corn and I are in the Labour Party, he is

:48:36.:48:42.

not a trot. Ian' not a Tory we share the unease about inequality and want

:48:43.:48:46.

to do something about it. What do you say to Tristan Hunt to says the

:48:47.:48:50.

Labour could turn into a sect. I say to everybody in the Labour Party. We

:48:51.:48:55.

have to get stuck in. It is a battle of ideas. We can wint argument,

:48:56.:48:59.

let's crack on. So So from economic socialism to

:49:00.:49:00.

capitalism. Capitalism has succeeded

:49:01.:49:01.

in making the poor poorer At least that's what most us

:49:02.:49:03.

believe, according to a YouGov poll carried

:49:04.:49:06.

out in seven countries including The bad news for capitalism

:49:07.:49:08.

in the survey is that. There's an almost universal belief

:49:09.:49:14.

that the world's biggest businesses have cheated and polluted

:49:15.:49:16.

their way to success with barely 10% of respondents thinking big

:49:17.:49:20.

businesses are "clean". Substantial majorities in all seven

:49:21.:49:26.

countries surveyed think the poor The populations of Britain, Brazil,

:49:27.:49:28.

Germany and America don't expect their children to be richer,

:49:29.:49:34.

safer and healthier. But the good news is that for all of

:49:35.:49:40.

the negativity towards capitalism, more people in all seven nations

:49:41.:49:44.

believe that the free enterprise system is better at lifting people

:49:45.:49:48.

out of poverty than government. There is

:49:49.:50:00.

a widespread recognition that entrepreneurs and business leaders

:50:01.:50:02.

are just as important to society. The overwhelming majorities

:50:03.:50:04.

in all seven countries recognise that strong community and family

:50:05.:50:06.

life underpin a strong economy. To discuss this, Tim Montgomerie

:50:07.:50:09.

from The Times joins us. They are findings of a new report

:50:10.:50:18.

published tomorrow. It is due to be launched by the Chancellor, George

:50:19.:50:19.

Osborne. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

:50:20.:50:28.

Broadly, has capitalism #235i8d? I don't think it has failed in the

:50:29.:50:37.

fundamental sense. -- -- that is failed? Poverty around the world is

:50:38.:50:44.

falling at an historically unprecedented rate but if you ask

:50:45.:50:49.

people whether poverty or hunger rising, they think it is. So

:50:50.:50:55.

capitalism although it is good at advertising soap powder, car and

:50:56.:51:02.

computers is bad at selling itself. Its achievements are unknown. The

:51:03.:51:07.

fact is most people in Britain, America and Germany think the poor

:51:08.:51:14.

are getting poorer, and the reverse is the case, that shows capitalism

:51:15.:51:18.

has a terrible PR problem even though it is a very successful

:51:19.:51:21.

system. We have heard from Liam Byrne, he wants to concentrate

:51:22.:51:23.

Labour's fight on fighting inequality. Isn't it true in

:51:24.:51:25.

highly-developed country, there is an ever-widening gap between the

:51:26.:51:28.

poorest and the top 1%? There is a mixed picture. Within some advanced

:51:29.:51:31.

societies there is a widening gap between the top and the bottom. In

:51:32.:51:35.

the world as a whole, we are becoming more equal because the

:51:36.:51:38.

likes of China, India, Africa, are beginning to see their incomes

:51:39.:51:41.

rising. Don't people want to focus on what is happening, where they

:51:42.:51:44.

are? Of course. One of the opinion poll findings in this poll conducted

:51:45.:51:48.

for us by YouGov asked - what are the big problems. What do you want

:51:49.:51:53.

Government to focus on, fighting poverty, fighting unemployment or

:51:54.:51:56.

reducing inequality and bringing the super-rich down to size. By

:51:57.:51:59.

overwhelming majorities people want to focus on unemployment and

:52:00.:52:03.

poverty. The danger for Liam Byrne and the Labour Party if they go down

:52:04.:52:07.

this route, is they are going - while people worry about inequality,

:52:08.:52:11.

it is not their priority. Do you think, from your perspective, that

:52:12.:52:14.

actually the Tories should be doing more about trying to close the gap

:52:15.:52:19.

between the top, the highest earners and those at the very bottom.

:52:20.:52:23.

Absolutely not, no. I think you don't want to cut down the tall

:52:24.:52:27.

poppies. You want them to grow and flourish. They spend the money that

:52:28.:52:32.

helps lift everybody else up. Is there so much evidence that

:52:33.:52:35.

trickle-down economics works that effectively for those at the lower

:52:36.:52:38.

end of the pay scale? If you don't have an ct aive economy, the people

:52:39.:52:43.

at the bottom are the one who is suffer more. This is the argument

:52:44.:52:46.

the Chancellor has been making. The thing that hits the poorest of

:52:47.:52:49.

society most is a failing economy. If you frighten off your wealth

:52:50.:52:52.

creators your economy will fail. I don't think the Government should be

:52:53.:52:54.

concerned about inequality. It should be concerned in factually as

:52:55.:52:59.

Tim was saying, about issues relating to unemployment and people

:53:00.:53:02.

living in Poff tie giving them the routes out of, that which I think

:53:03.:53:07.

our welfare reforms have been doing. -- living in poverty. Was the last

:53:08.:53:13.

government sane the good too close to big business, that hoard its

:53:14.:53:16.

money, didn't spend, didn't invest to do much to help unemployment at

:53:17.:53:19.

that particular time when it should have been? The Government didn't

:53:20.:53:23.

seem to have any impact in that? In a word, yes. Absolutely too cloe.s

:53:24.:53:27.

Michael Gove at an event at the Conservative Party Conference he

:53:28.:53:30.

made a distinction, Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, made a

:53:31.:53:34.

distinction between the deserving rich and undeserving rich. We had

:53:35.:53:38.

this traditional distinction between the deserving poor and undeserving

:53:39.:53:41.

poor. He talked for example, about bankers who during the good times

:53:42.:53:44.

closed down the accounts of small business people who didn't pay on

:53:45.:53:48.

time and were very tough on the little guy but when they ran into

:53:49.:53:52.

trouble they were bailed out by the taxpayer. There are a lot of

:53:53.:53:55.

business, the fossil fuel industry, the bankers who got too close to

:53:56.:53:59.

Government. Government helps them out. There are lots of ladders on

:54:00.:54:03.

the way up, but not enough snakes on the way down. If capitalism is to be

:54:04.:54:08.

seen to be fair, the same rules that apply to the little guy, must apply

:54:09.:54:13.

to the big guy. That's one of the approaches we are taking in this

:54:14.:54:16.

institute manifesto, to ensure that capitalism works for everyone and

:54:17.:54:20.

the rules are equal. At the moment that's in the how capitalism is

:54:21.:54:24.

seen. We'll watch it closely. Thank you.

:54:25.:54:25.

Now Halloween has been and gone and that can only mean one thing.

:54:26.:54:28.

Not just plenty of discounted pumpkins in the supermarkets.

:54:29.:54:30.

But it's time for the proper British tradition of Bonfire Night,

:54:31.:54:33.

commemorating, of course, the failure of the Gunpowder Plot

:54:34.:54:35.

in November 1605 to blow up the Houses of Parliament.

:54:36.:54:38.

Let's have a look at how the popular CBBC programme,

:54:39.:54:40.

It was the plot that seemed unthinkable.

:54:41.:54:46.

So we are going to blow up King James and his entire family

:54:47.:54:53.

Because you are a Catholic and I'm a Catholic and the King

:54:54.:55:02.

He seems to think we are always plotting something.

:55:03.:55:05.

It was the plot that sounded impossible.

:55:06.:55:08.

So we are just supposed to roll 36 barrels of gun powder down the

:55:09.:55:15.

Thames, sneak it into this rented cellar, wait for Parliament to open,

:55:16.:55:18.

then I creep back in, light the fuse, run away and blow up the King

:55:19.:55:22.

OK, just checking I had that down right.

:55:23.:55:29.

It was the plot that surely would go wrong.

:55:30.:55:35.

Well, joining us now, and I hope he's not left any barrels

:55:36.:55:38.

of gunpowder deep under the Daily Politics studio, is Guy Fawkes.

:55:39.:55:44.

Otherwise known as Neal Foster, the manager of the Birmingham Stage

:55:45.:55:46.

Company and the director of Horrible Histories on tour.

:55:47.:55:52.

I love the outfit. Welcome on to the dale comblivenlingts remind us why

:55:53.:55:58.

it is such an important event and evening? -- welcome on to the daily

:55:59.:56:03.

mrivenlingts We wanted to blow up the Parliament and king and

:56:04.:56:05.

mrivenlingts We wanted to blow up members of the House of Lords

:56:06.:56:08.

mrivenlingts We wanted to blow up wanted to destroy the elite, so we

:56:09.:56:09.

could take over and wanted to destroy the elite, so we

:56:10.:56:11.

could be in charge Why do you think it still resonates?

:56:12.:56:16.

King James decided everyone Why do you think it still resonates?

:56:17.:56:27.

to celebrate it, right up until late in Victorian times. Now we celebrate

:56:28.:56:29.

it, in Victorian times. Now we celebrate

:56:30.:56:38.

Robert Catesby. It should be burn Bob, rather than Guy. What do you

:56:39.:56:40.

think of it historically Bob, rather than Guy. What do you

:56:41.:56:45.

we commemorate so religiously to coin a phrase. As a Papist, I

:56:46.:56:49.

we commemorate so religiously to some concerned. I'm glad the Pope

:56:50.:56:54.

isn't burned in effigy so much as he used to be. . There is a theory that

:56:55.:57:00.

it was organised by Robert Cecil, that he knew what was going on and

:57:01.:57:05.

hence the plot was so ludicrous that it couldn't be successful that the

:57:06.:57:09.

Government secret agents knew it was happening and wanted the

:57:10.:57:12.

Government secret agents knew it was against James. The first who had

:57:13.:57:16.

feelings of being more tolerant. His ministers didn't like that and

:57:17.:57:18.

therefore if they had a great plot ministers didn't like that and

:57:19.:57:23.

that went badly wrong and official commemorations to remind everyone of

:57:24.:57:26.

how awful the Catholics were, that would be a great victory for the

:57:27.:57:30.

establishment. There you have heard the aleasterntive few. Was it

:57:31.:57:36.

ludicrous? Given what they did to me, all my friends hung, drawn and

:57:37.:57:41.

quarter,ed insides were taken out and we were chopped into four

:57:42.:57:46.

pieces. I think someone might have said - hang on, we want to tell the

:57:47.:57:52.

truth. And then put the finger on Cecil. Where can we see you? We are

:57:53.:57:56.

on tour all over the country. That's right until July. Will you be going

:57:57.:58:01.

along, Jacob? Remember, remember, the 5th November. Gun powder treason

:58:02.:58:07.

and plot. I see no reason why gun powder treason should ever be

:58:08.:58:10.

forgot. I'm very impressed. You should win a prize just for doing

:58:11.:58:14.

that. Thank you for coming on and making it colourful for us. #12k3w4r

:58:15.:58:16.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:17.:58:19.

The question was - what has Downing Street apparently "photo-shopped"

:58:20.:58:21.

Downing Street didn't Photoshop anything. You are so loyal. Hackers

:58:22.:58:42.

from an enemy power probably got into the Downing Street machine and

:58:43.:58:45.

put a poppy on the Prime Minister. Well done. This is' it for today.

:58:46.:58:50.

Thank you for being our guest of the day and to everybody else too. I

:58:51.:58:54.

will be back tomorrow at 11.30am. Goodbye.

:58:55.:59:00.

Jo Coburn hears from Crispin Blunt, whose influential committee has advised the prime minister not to press ahead with a vote on air strikes in Syria. Guest of the day Jacob Rees-Mogg explains why he's against the recent changes to stamp duty. And Horrible Histories' Guy Fawkes makes an appearance.


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