09/11/2015 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Four government departments say they've agreed to cut


their day-to-day spending by an average of 30%.


That's pleased the Chancellor, George Osborne, ahead of his


But savings on welfare and at the home office could prove more


Our Adam's been out and about finding out what you guys


If you have a afford to have tattoos and smoke, why should you be


claiming benefits? The Prime Minister says he's deadly


serious about securing reform in Europe


and has no emotional attachment to He likes to cut a dash


and wants to be London Mayor. And that's not all,


we'll be talking to George Galloway about his plans to enter


the vintage clothing market. All that in the next hour


and with us for the duration Conservative, Mark Field,


and Labour's Peter Kyle. Now first today, let's talk


about Jeremy Corbyn and the Chief of the Defence Staff,


Sir Nicholas Houghton who yesterday exchanged a war of words, albeit


on different television programmes. First off, let's hear from


Sir Nicholas, who was interviewed on The whole thing about deterrence


rests on the credibility of its use. When people say you were never going


to use the deterrence, what I say is you use the deterrent every second


of every minute of every day, and the purpose of a deterrent is that


you don't have to use it because you successfully deterred. So no point


in spending billions and billions of pounds? Because then terrorists are


undermined. Well that didn't please


Jeremy Corybn over much, who responded by accusing the general


of breaching the constitutional principle that the military remains


politically neutral. Let's listen to the Labour Leader


speaking to Channel 4 News last I would gently say to him, with the


greatest of respect, we live in a democracy where politicians are


elected to Parliament in order to take political decisions. The Armed


Forces, obviously, must advise, and obviously must put the point of view


across, and obviously they have a great deal of access to the


Secretary of State for Defence, the Prime Minister and every other MP


and opposition members. I do not think it is helpful for them to


start making political comments of a partisan and party political nature.


And with us now former Labour Security Minister,


First of all, is Jeremy Corbyn right? Did a Sir Nicholas Houghton


breach his constitutional duty when he said he would be worried if


Jeremy Corbyn's antinuclear views were translated into power? I think


he was bluffed into seeing a little bit more about deterrence theory


then he meant to say. I don't think he had any intention at all of


saying that Jeremy Corbyn will do this and that is wrong and therefore


he is not happy about them. I think he was gently bluffed into saying


more than he should have done and at the end of it, he probably did say


more than he should have done in a political sense. So he did cross


that line? I think so but just. Let's say that if Jimmy had not said


anything about it, it would have faded away without that much notice.


I might be wrong. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn overreacted by saying


that he would be writing to him and he was outraged by the breach? I


think sometimes it is better to let some things run. Some things need to


be reacted too but he clearly made the decision that he feels very


strongly on this issue. On the substance, did you agree with Sir


Nicholas Houghton that refusing to launch nuclear weapons, not press


the button is the fact, undermining the deterrence? Deterrence, clearly


it means that you are saying that if you do some pity me, I will do


something back to you. Whilst I have admiration for individuals who are


pacifists, I do not believe that is the way to run a country. What do


you say to that, a lot of people would agree with that. If you say


you will not press the button, you have undermined the deterrence that


cost a lot of money. The more important question is the democratic


question. It is all very well having the discussion about deterrence and


I know there is more or less a convention that senior military


figures do not tend to express their personal views on things, but he did


go well beyond that and he did give the impression that Jeremy Corbyn


was elected as Brown and Mr, if he was, and the word power must


presumably refer to that, that he would have concerns. Jeremy Corbyn


would only be elected as Prime Minister if the British people had


voted in an election for him and his policies. I think it is absolutely


inappropriate and that a senior military figure should put that


question mark over a democratic decision by the British people. The


question, what is absolutely right is, when a political party has been


voted in, the job of the military, even if they do not like what the


government is doing, is to do the best they can with a bad job. And


you try to make sure that you can defend and look after the people of


the nation and come up against any unforeseen circumstances with what


you have got. And you don't say, I'm not going to do this because I don't


like this particular party. That is absolutely right. And that has


always been a tenet of military forces. Whoever is in power, they


have been elected and they are the government and we are not a military


dictatorship. The military are subordinate to government and they


do as they are told. That aspect is absolutely right. Also, because Sir


Nicholas Houghton is such a senior figure, that could give the


impression that all military think that Trident, and replacing the


nuclear deterrent, is a good idea, but in actual fact... Presumably


they do? There are certainly some in the military, and some of the more


senior armoury officers -- army officers who don't like Trident. And


there is a debate about that. Probably the majority do like it and


feel that it should be there. They don't like it, but they feel it


should be there. And I have to say, I share that view. I have been


deeply involved in the nuclear issue for 30 years. These arguments which


the Labour Party have gone through, I have been through them so many


times and I am convinced that disarmament is not our good idea.


Would you resign that the Labour whip if they took the oath? It is


highly likely that I would resign if they decided that we would become


unilateral. Because I am not a member of the military serving as an


officer so I have that luxury. But the military should get on with it,


and I think they will. My late father was in the Army added to the


purist view that he was there to fight for Queen and country and he


never even voted in the general election although we had robust


conservative views. I think there is a danger and it would be wrong to


overstate this, I think he went slightly over the line to say that


it was deservedly about Jeremy Corbyn. I think one of the strengths


of the armed services, one of the reasons that along with the


monarchy, it retains such a great public support, is that it is seen


as being above politics. It needs to make sure it is that at all times.


My frustration with this debate is we are talking about process and not


about the issues. But process is quite important. It interesting,


because Lord West explained frustration about someone stepping


over the line but now we are having a debate about you potentially


resigning the web. As a new MP, instinctively inclined to vote for


renewal, I am open to debate on both sides and I want to listen to all


the arguments, sides and I want to listen to all


the range of opinions in the military. Jeremy has come into power


the range of opinions in the and he will not be Prime Minister


for another four and he will not be Prime Minister for another,. -- four


and a half years. Except we have MPs who say that Labour will not have a


settled view by that point. Kier Starmer said


settled view by that point. Kier there could be a timing issue and


that is the problem when there could be a timing issue and


votes because Labour has not agreed. Which is why we need to get to the


issues. There are a range of issues in the


issues. There are a range of issues once debate. Let's have a


issues. There are a range of issues learn from it. On that basis,


issues. There are a range of issues think that Jeremy Corbyn could be


persuaded to think that Jeremy Corbyn could be


Party as a whole. Murray eagles has said that they are going


Party as a whole. Murray eagles has debate in the Labour Party and that


will start. But the Shadow Home Secretary is disagreeing with the


Labour Party. Do you think you could change is mind? We have seen it


before. The Lib Dems found out that when you never think you are going


to be in power, you can say all sorts of nonsense. I am afraid that


Jeremy, before he was elected, he was in that arena. Now you suddenly


find you have got to actually do real things, and it is much harder.


You have to focus. The Wilson government said that they were going


to scrap the deterrent when they came into power, and when they got


there, they had all the briefings and looked at it and they changed


their mind. I think Jeremy Corbyn is the sort of chap who will have a


debate and listen to it. I think there is a possibility we might


change our mind. His electorate would not like to think that if they


were all killed, and the children would not like to think that if they


looking after them said he would turn the other cheek. I have been so


closely involved in this for so long... And are encroached


positions. But it goes beyond deterrence. Alan has touched on


this, because there is the issue of a world where we are not able to


spend endless amounts on defence, and the notion of ring fencing money


spend endless amounts on defence, that would otherwise go to Trident


to go to conventional warfare, that is part of the argument. I am with


you. It want, is part of the argument. I am with


we will be talking about that in a moment. Could this split the Labour


Party? If we have the issue where the Shadow Defence Secretary says he


agrees with Sir Nicholas Houghton rather than Jeremy Corbyn, is that a


risk? Yes, but there are lots of risks that could split the party.


Could it become your Europe? Now, because I think the issue will be


settled by next summer. I think the issue will move forward and the


party will move on. Lastly, do you think that Jeremy Corbyn's


unilateralism mind is not changed, would make him unfit to to be Prime


Minister? I think you could still be Prime Minister but it would be


completely the wrong thing to do and I think it would be more dangerous


for our people and our country. It would be up to the country to


decide, wouldn't it? Thank you both. what is the House


of Commons due to debate this week? Is it moving the UK parliament to


Strasbourg whilst restoration work is carried out on the Palace


of Westminster? Is it selling off Whitehall to build


new homes. Or is it putting a pop up bar in


the House of Lords? At the end of the show one


of our guests, may just give us With the Spending Review just over


a couple of weeks away these are Some conscientious ministers have


already handed in their work, some wayward types appear to be


leaving it to the last minute. George Osborne is demanding savings


on day-to-day spending of between 25% and 40% by the end


of this Parliament to help remove Some lucky ministers, including


Education Secretary Nicky Morgan, International Development Secretary


Justine Greening and Health's Jeremy Hunt, have some or all of


their departments protected, meaning This morning the Chancellor has


announced who is in his good books, Transport's Patrick McLoughlin,


Environment Secretary Liz Truss and Greg Clarke from Communities and


Local Government are the teachers pets as they,


along with the Treasury, have worked Some ministers however have


been less forthcoming. Home Secretary Theresa May is


holding out, there are reports she's particularly concerned


about cuts to police numbers. It's believed Mr Osborne is keen to


use Mr Duncan Smith's budget to find the ?4 billion of savings that he


would have made with tax credits. The Work and Pensions Secretary is


said to be unhappy about the plans and there are reports


of furious rows behind the scenes. One thing this morning we have


learnt will be in the Spending Review is the building


of nine new prisons at a cost of more than ?1 billion, although


the Ministry of Justice hope it Speaking earlier,


George Osborne said this. Why he believed further savings were


necessary. We are still spending too much. We are set to borrow more than


?70 billion this year, added to our current mountain of debt, currently


over ?1.5 trillion. That national debt reached 80% of our national


income this year. While that is high, our economic security is in


danger. No one knows what the next economic crisis to hit our world


will be or when it will come. But we know we haven't abolished boom and


bust. We know we must prepare for whatever the world throws at us. We


know that if we don't control spending, we run the risk of higher


mortgage rates and a loss of confidence in our economy. And we


know for certain that will lead to job losses, businesses closing down,


homes being repossessed and the livelihoods of working people


destroyed. And with us now is Paul Johnson from


the Institute of Fiscal Studies. Able, The savings that we have heard


about today is about day-to-day spending, what we call current


spending, is it as big a deal as George Osborne says? The amount he


has found is small. He is not looking at most of the transport


budget, just the day-to-day spending and most of transport is capital


spending. He is not even looking at most of local government spending.


It is just a bit of what the department spends. The Treasury is


small. The amount of billions he has found is not many. But it is an


indication of scale we would expect for the rest of the Parliament. He


is making a big show of these departments that have found the


spending, but in a way it is the low hanging fruit of the departments. It


is the little bits of departments. He has not settled with transport,


because the big bit is capital and he has not settled with communities


and local government, this is is not the main local government grant and


does not tell us what total spending will be. A lot is paid for by


Council Tax and business rates. George Osborne's argument is with


debt at 80% of national income, the government needs to prepare for


another crash. Is 80% too large a proportion? It is more than it has


been at any time since the mid 1960s. So that is large in that


perspective. If you look back to the Second World War we were over 200%


of national income. The question is what are the risks that are


associated with going into the 2020s with a debt at 80% if we had another


big crash, that would take it up to 120% and is that too much or not? As


ever with these things, there is a balance of risks. The risk he is


taking is big cuts in spending and the risk by not taking it the


potential for the trouble that could be caused by another recession with


80% as debt. If you take those cuts into account, what would be the dept


made to national debt? What we are looking at in getting to 2020 with a


balanced budget or a surplus f you maintain, the debt comes down


relatively quickly f the economy grows 2 or 3% a year. But it still


above where it was before the recession. In the Financial Times it


is reported there could be some wriggle room because of continued


low interest rates that may extend into next year and 2017. How much


does that give the Chancellor to play with? Difficult to sell now, we


will wait for what the Office of Budget Responsibility says. He has


had this benefit a couple of times in the past. A couple of years ago


interest rates and inflation expectations were down. And looking


forward the shocks won't always be in this direction. The low interest


rate cuts both ways. We have had seven and half years and they don't


need to raise much to have an impact on the debt pile. I think George


Osborne is right, we need to actress this and there are -- address this


and the economic clouds are darkening. . It is good to talk


about debt. Because debt has risen And has risen despite the government


boasting about bringing down the deficit in part. Debt has not come


down. No, the deficit means you're adding to the debt each year. So the


question even if you make the cuts, how much of a dent would it ma I can


to the national debt. The issue is the confidence of the capital


markets, because it has been one of the successes that George Osborne


can point to compared to the other options that he has had the


confidence of the markets and we have a plan and we are working on


that plan. Why not bank that confidence in the capital markets if


you like and use it to invest? Why include the capital part of the


budget and not as John Macdonald said, use some of that to invest to


grow the economy. I would watch what will happen on 25th November at the


autumn review. I suspect there may be not on a huge scale, but elements


of that there. And we have had a situation that actually the


transport budget, the day-to-day budget, is neither here nor there,


most of it is large long lasting projects. Do you think it wrong to


have that fiscal charter which binds the government to balance the books


and keep a surplus on both the budgets. No, it is the rights thing


to do. Partly because of the confidence of markets and to make it


clear we have a plan, OK, there will be some pragmatic flexibility in the


plan from year-to-year. That has happened in the last government and


will happen. The flexibility is towards the end of electoral cycle


and that is what we have seen. It is interesting that each election that


the Tories have Bon, have been done on an ideological platform but they


come back to the darling plan by the end of the government. How would


Labour cut the deficit. The thing about the dech sit is about --


deficit is aimed for a balanced budget. How would you cut the


deficit. John Macdonald said he would raise taxes. I


deficit. John Macdonald said he paying down the debt


deficit. John Macdonald said he growing and has been growing. Yes,


but getting growing growing and has been growing. Yes,


been bumping along the bottom... Both the last three years...


Productivity is comes from a Both the last three years...


specific part of the economy in the city of London. We don't


specific part of the economy in the industrial platform or growth.


specific part of the economy in the services as a whole. The


of England, people who are unemployed are against it, small


businesses, we have favs and high start ups, but we don't have the


growth and that is where the real growth needs to come from. Should


the money if there is wriggle room be used to lessen the impact of the


cuts? It will be use fodder that. -- used for that. It will be utilised


and we will touch on the tax credit. You think that is right. What about


the building of prisons. Nine new You think that is right. What about


prisons. In fairness part of that will


central... Something like Pentonville you will build luxury


flats on the site and relocate it and a lot of that will be


investment, but will wash its face. We need to renew the physical side


of Prison Service and to invest in the social side and make sure that


we invest more in breaking the cycle of crime that goes on within


prisons. You're going to of crime that goes on within


us. What to the votersers think about what we spend on benefits. If


only there was a way to find out. Well here is Adam. Everyone loves a


discussion about the welfare state on the way to work. So are we


spending too much on on the way to work. So are we


benefits. A lot of people who are destitute. So too little. Grab a


green ball. They have enough for us here, but it is so many that comes


from abroad. I don't think that is enough. It spreads for too many


people. If you can afford tattoos and smoke or things like that, why


should you be claiming benefits? What would you increase? Maybe the


tax credits. Controversial. People are suffering. I want you to picture


the benefits bill. It is ?202 billion a year. Is that too much? No


it is too little. How much more would you spend? Probably about


another half again. Really? Yes, why not? I get all benefits, DLA and


housing benefit and I have applied for extra benefit. Hopefully I will


get that. Your benefits could be going up. Yes, why not. Grab a ball


then. Pop it in. She had taken it and run away. You have to put it in


the box. It is not a benefit! You put that in very forcefully. I


believe strongly. I why do you think we spend too much? Because I think


we can't afford it for a start. There are too many other things that


we need to spend it on. I think we have fallen into a culture of all


rights and no responsibilities. Nobody has a right to endless free


living. Well people don't like discussing the welfare state on the


way to work. We have an embarrassing meagre number of balls. I think this


side's slightly in the lead though. Not much in it. How much of a hit do


you think the welfare budget is going to have to take? Or will have


to take? That is really largely been announced. The Chancellor announced


12 billion of cuts in July. This is what causing him problems, for


billion was to come from tax credit cut and it looks like there will be


some rowing back from that as a result of vote in the House of


Lords. But the 12 billion was in the manifesto and what is being


delivered is less. We are aiming at 2020 and we are not sure if we will


get the first four billion next year. Should they cut more from the


welfare budget? You have got to realise the politics is the art of


possible and what happened with the tax credit changes is a sign it will


be difficult to get through not just the House of Lords, but the House of


Commons. I have been right in favour of what we are doing on tax credits.


It is one of the most pernicious elements of the Brown regime. It is


negative income tax. Hang on. No, what it was you have to remember why


we had tax credits, was that we brought in the minimum wage and your


party opposed it. We needed to find a way, we couldn't have brought in


the living wage and we needed to get the supplement. Minimum wage is a


maximum wage. Don't talk over each other. Where I will extend an olive


branch was to say we should have Tran sixed earlier and we --


transitioned earlier we should have transitioned from a tax credits to


increasing the minimum wage. Your party would have opposed it. We


should have made that transition in government. But the problem is the


transition now, you're going to cut tax credits and not supplement it


with the so-called living wage for another three and a half or four


years. So let's see what happens when George Osborne makes his


statement. In the battle between George Osborne and Iain Duncan Smith


you said you think he was doing the right thing with tax credits, whose


side are you on if Iain Duncan Smith digs his heel in. That is up to


them. They have got to work it out. Whose side are you on? I think we


have got the welfare budget is too high and we need, because I think


the economic clouds are darkening and we need to address this and


particularly the whole tax credits. There is a irony in fairness one of


reasons we have had the jobs miracle, because we have had tax


credit and subsidised employment and keep employment levels up. Now you


want the pull the rug in under people? Now we want to eget


employers to realised a minimum wage shouldn't be a maximum wage.


Although put the mood box to one side that said it was too much. The


public tend to be on the side of cutting the welfare bill. Saying it


is too expensive. The public want value for money and sensitive tot


itive to the fact that their money is hard earn and they want the


Government to spend the money wisely. But the public are sensitive


to fairness and want to make sure that people in need of support get


the support and that is why the mood box shows a more balanced view than


two years ago. After this tax credit cuts problem, are you worried that


George Osborne has lost his credibility? No it is a short-term


thing. The issue is none of the options for getting out of this will


be easy. He has made it clear that we are not going to ignore the House


of Lords. I would be happy to support him continuing with this


policy. My instinct is what might happen is that we cannot, this


element of policy and bring in the changes for any new applicants. The


truth that does leave a gap in what we are trying to achieve this


getting the budget down. It only needs a another 0.2% growth and that


can be bridged. What are the options in terms of tweaking the tax credits


or putting money in, are those the things that are on offer to George


Osborne? The trust in long-term savings, then


just doing this for new applicants, or as you roll onto Universal


Credit, don't change the system that was cut. The system that was cut.


There were big. You could do nothing to the current system. And then once


Universal Credit is in place, you have made the savings. But it is


important to be clear that there is an issue here for the Chancellor,


because he set himself a welfare cap for next year. Does the tax credit


changes for 2016, he will likely bust the welfare cap, which means he


will have to go back to back to Parliament to ask them to give him


more money to spend on welfare, which of course he can do, but it


might be a little bit embarrassing because there are constraints year.


There is a constraint for 2016 and he is also got a overall budget


constraint for 2020. And meeting the latter might be easier than meeting


the former. Thank you. The Prime Minister has told the CBI


annual conference that he is "deadly serious" about securing


reform in Europe and has "no emotional attachment" to the


institutions of the EU. In a speech this morning,


Mr Cameron said he wasn't going to pretend for a second that Britain


couldn't survive outside the EU and he stressed


that the key goal was to secure Let's listen to what the PM had


to say just a little earlier. The argument isn't whether Britain


could survive outside the EU, of course it could. The argument is how


are we going to be best off. That is the argument that I hope we're going


to be making together after this successful negotiation. When it


comes to the crucial issues, our prosperity, our national security,


of course we can prosperity, our national security,


those things outside the EU, and how we make ourselves more


Joining me now is the UKIP MP Douglas Carswell.


Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Mark, recent reports suggest the


Prime Minister is preparing to watered-down plans to ban EU


migrants from claiming in work benefits for four years. Would you


like him to stick to the plan of four years? I would like him to put


this forward but inevitably this is going to be a negotiation that will


have to take place. The important thing about all of the reforms, the


EU is clearly a body that needs reform. I am under no illusions


about that. I don't think it is a perfect institution at all. However,


we need to recognise that this is a down payment of reform. I hope we


will get a package to be put to the electorate at some point in the next


year or so but however, the truth is this has got to be not a destination


but a process. I think in years to come, reform is something we need to


look at and take EU members with an attorney. If like many of the other


things on the shopping list, although we don't know the detail,


David Cameron has been advised by civil senior servants that they are


not achievable. As you say, it is a journey but will that be enough to


convince people, on trust, an something happening down the line,


that we might actually lay treble -- actually get something as important


as reforming benefits? I think that is an important part of it. But with


regards to the broader competitive agenda, making sure that Britain is


capable and protected outside the euro zone, I think the important


thing is that there is a package that David Cameron comes back with,


not just for UK exceptionalism but for the reforms that needs to happen


in the EU as a whole. Also, a programme of reform that will extend


beyond the referendum. David Cameron says that a vote to leave the EU is


not without risk. Did you accept that? The risky option would be to


say that we would remain part of a group of countries


say that we would remain part of a control. The EU cannot deal


say that we would remain part of a huge economic and demographic and


technological changes that are happening around the world.


technological changes that are have lost control of the agenda.


They cannot control currency or borders. The risky option would be


to show our -- through our lot in with a feeling project. We need to


take back control. But do you with a feeling project. We need to


the point that it is not without risk to leave the EU? I think


the point that it is not without less risky option is leave the EU.


Is the more honest argument from the banister, as he says it is not about


whether the UK can survive outside, because he accept that we can, but


it is about which option will make the UK more prosperous and secure,


so there is a more honest argument. If he was going to be honest he


would be telling us that he is planning on having this in June and


he's not going to get any significant new deal. I have to say,


if there is honesty, I don't think the CBI is the forum to discuss it,


given that they have been releasing some dodgy bowling. Will he


presented as a big win? I think he will be candid about it and I think


that they are looking at the other options. What are they? Can we see a


list of the reforms? We are going to have a letter tomorrow and it will


not be a bullet pointed list but it will look at the areas in which we


are looking to continue to negotiate. I have been struck by


David Cameron and Philip Hammond, because they have been out in many


of the European capitals over the last few months, looking to build an


alliance on to make this sort of reform. Everyone recognises that the


EU needs these reforms. You have to look at the other options, you are


right. The notion that we can restate the Commonwealth, I mean,


the Indians laugh at the facility, how facile that prospect is.


Australia, New Zealand, they see themselves as Asian nations. What


has happened in Canada, we might be able to cut a deal with Stephen


Harper but not Trudeau. I think it is perfectly possible for us to...


Ascot the Norwegians and the Swiss. They trade outside the EU, and


profitably. But the officials do not because they negotiate these


conditions as a condition of joining. The problem you have is


that the European Union you describe is unrecognisable to the millions of


people... Let me finish. It is unrecognisable to the millions who


visit Europe in the last couple of months. You have described something


that is just destitute. Morally, economically and socially. This is a


hyperbole... It is their to say that the Labour Party's position is to


stay in, whatever the report. But also, the focus on the rapport. It


comes down to the fact that people in this country are supportive of


the European Union. -- focus on the reform. We will have a referendum


and we will see. We don't want to stay in at any price... But let's


see what the voters say. We were famously in the same lobby in 2011,


voting in favour of the referendum. I think the public needs to have a


say. We want the Europeans to stop meddling in details of the country,


and focus on the big issues. Well David Cameron was speaking


at the CBI conference in Their Director General,


John Cridland joins us now. Welcome to the programme. The Prime


Minister argues that a vote to leave the EU is not risk-free but he rules


nothing out of the cannot secure necessary reform. Do you rule


nothing out? I am encouraged that the Prime Minister is serious about


that reform and that process is what we will need to convince British


business and the public that Europe is the way forward. For me, reform


is everything and we have heard from my own Prime Minister, committing to


a strong reform agenda, and from the tee shot, the Minister of Ireland,


how important it is that he helps Britain support that reform because


Ireland wants Britain to be in. Most Britons want to stay in a reformed


EU. That is the issue of the day. But if the majority of your members


vote to leave, eight out of ten firms who attended the July meeting


of the CBI Presidents committee are not actually allowed to support any


political campaigning, so whose views do you represent? I represent


the views of 190,000 businesses, which through our 140 trade


associations, we speak for, employing 7 million workers. And the


large majority of those want to remain in a reformed EU, not the EU


of the status quo. And I am always happy to debate on the issues, but


they don't seem to want to debate on the issues. They just want to debate


on bits of process. John Criddle and saying that the majority of his


members want to stay within the EU. -- Tabak. These CBI polls measure


voter opinion in the way that Volkswagen measure emissions. They


are inherently dodgy. They claim that eight out of ten... They have


not actually said that, Douglas Carswell. Let's look at objective


assessment. Ernst Young, the Federation of Small Businesses,


business for Britain, they have produced calling data that produces


the business -- that shows that business is divided. Douglas


Carswell says dodgy, in terms of the way you do polling. I can speak with


a strong mandate from my members, and I spent five years in this job.


I don't think I would be doing this job if I was not speaking for the


voice of British business. There are more than 1000 small and medium-size


businesses in the room behind me and they have listened patiently and


politely to political speakers who have debated this issue this


morning. Of course, there are a variety of views and the more


international business, the more likely they are to see the upside to


Europe. The more domestic the business, the more likely they are


to see the downside. So you would expect a different business


organisations with different membership profiles to come up with


different results. Let's look at these pictures because as the Prime


Minister was speaking, some protesters unfurled a banner which


said, CBI, the voice of Brussels. I think you can see that they are.


They clearly do not think that you would never recommend to leave the


EU. Whatever happens. Reform or not. Are they right to? The word two


demonstrators and there were 1000 other people in the room. The


demonstrators were politely heard, as I hope my views are. But you have


not answered my question, and you said that you desperately want


reform. If there is no substantial of reform, would you recommend


voters leave to -- vote to leave the EU? I am confident that there will


be reform but we will take that reform package back to CBI members


and ask them for a renewed mandate. We are not unconditional on being in


the EU, we want a reform package. If we get it, we will ask our members


whether they are satisfied with it. Welcome to democracy. That is clear.


They are going to ask the members again. Leaked members from the --


minutes from the board meeting show that they are in at any price. They


are possessed about promoting the EU. They wanted Britain to join the


euro a decade ago and they wanted us to join the ERM in the 1980s. They


were wrong then and they are wrong now. I will come back to you in a


moment, John Cridland. I never believed in joining the euro. I am


the Director General of the CBI and I speak for the organisation. The


CBI is not in favour of joining the euro. What we want to do -- what you


seem to want to do is talk over other people. Don't govern him,


because we want to hear everybody. The question John Cridland said is


even if the leadership of the CBI site that they would advocate to


stay in, they are going to give their members a chance to have their


say and judgment. Surely that enough? I think it is good that they


will ask the members, but the poll that they have produced, showing


that eight out of ten businesses support being in the EU is


inherently dodgy. I think we have to question whether or not the


leadership of the CBI generally reflects business opinion. There are


other voices out there that have produced objective data that shows


the business is divided. Companies that can afford to hire lobbyists in


Brussels might like the system but others that cannot, organisations


that are not big banks and lobbies, might recognise that actually the


single market... The CBI exists to consult its members and to speak for


its members. The idea that you want to... There are other organisations.


I am sitting here with two bastions of conservatism and I am pretty


proud that I am the only person to let finish a around here. 1-0 for


public education. It is right that the CBI listens and represents its


members. That is the right process to go through and I am proud that


they are doing it. They need to speak with a voice and listen and


consult. John does not exist to tell his members what to think, he exists


to listen to them and speak for them. Douglas Carswell is obsessed


with polling and the process of polling. Let's stick to the issue


and let him speak for his members. But shouldn't they be transparent,


as transparent as possible about the broad views of business?


Absolutely. And John was trying to speak but he was spoken over the top


of. You have made that point. As a pushy grammar schoolboy, I have to


say... The difficulty of your stands, Douglas, you started by


single thing was a sham and we would get no reform. We're going to get


reform but you will say that is nothing like enough. You are going


to say it is smoke and mirrors, come the referendum. I think we are going


to get a package here. I hope there will be some exceptions, that we


will be able to get a good deal for Britain but also, we all know that


this institution does require reform. We are members of lots of


institutions, like the UN, which disappoints us from time to time. We


are members of NATO and various elements of that disappoint us. It


does not mean we walk out, we want to play an ongoing role and try to


make it better. John Cridland, you're stepping down


and on our membership of the EU, are you at your successor at one? Yes.


We want Europe to do more of what it does well and less of what it does


badly. British business wants a better deal from Europe and Caroline


will continue to represent the views of broad mass of business. Would you


be a dpan of having the referendum in June? -- fan. I want to have the


referendum when we have the reform package and so the public can make


an informed choice. Thank you. Next June, you would be in favour of next


June? I I want it as soon as possible. We are committed to having


reform and it shouldn't be rushed. But for certainty let's get this


done and But for certainty let's get this


it is conducted honestly with honest polling.


Now how's the political calendar shaping up this week?


the Scottish Parliament, will complete its stages in the Commons


And tomorrow the Trade Union Bill should also complete its final


stages in the Commons before MPS pack up for a short recess.


On Wednesday the European Union will hold


And on Thursday Britain plays host to the Prime Minister of India,


The first visit by an Indian Prime Minister for over ten years.


Let's talk now to Kevin Maguire from the Mirror and Sam Coates


There may are outside st houses of Parliament. The spending review, how


tricky is this row going to be an Iain Duncan Smith and George


Osborne. Will Iain Duncan Smith win or will he be forced to resign? If I


knew that, I would be a rich man. But it is a live and quite personal


row between these two. At stake is Iain Duncan Smith's flagship


project, universal credit to help people to earn more in work. George


Osborne has come into try and raid it and George Osborne wants between


one and two billion out of project in order to pay for what was a mess


up with tax credits after the House of Lords rejected the plans to cut


about a thousand pounds from three million low paid households. I


wouldn't expect Iain Duncan Smith to go without quite a fight. Whether he


encourages George Osborne to back down, or points him in another


direction of his budget for savings, we are still waiting to find out.


They have got two weeks. There is in spending review times that is a long


time. But it is one of most fraught bits of the review. Followed by


Theresa May protecting cuts to police. Is that again going to be


the battle symbolising for those departments that are unprotected?


The Home Office is in a different place, we are not hearing the


squeals of outrage you do from people around Iain Duncan Smith.


Theresa May is a canny operator and knows the point that they cut police


funding in the last Parliament and yet crime went down and not up. So


there is little less squeamishness there about spending. There will be


spending for intelligence agencies that will continue to go up. Part of


that comes under the Home Office. It will be a mixed picture. But that I


don't think feel like it is at the heart of a big battle. Now Jeremy


Corbyn and Trident. It is difficult, he is outraged by what he calls a


constitutional breach by Nicholas Houghton, but his shadow Defence


Secretary seems to agree with the chief of defence. She did initially,


not realising that Jeremy Corbyn would make a statement and Maria


Eagle is all for Trident, which ever you want, he Jeremy Corbyn, isn't


and Downing Street was clear they thought that Nicholas Houghton was


entitled to say what he said, I suspect because they did because


when another defence staff criticised the military strategy,


David Cameron said I will do the talking, you do the fighting. ? A


democracy he should not intervene. That is an error on his part and the


Conservatives have criticised him and the principle of him intervening


and I suspect the SNP are in the same boat and some Labour people who


are for renewing Trident, but they will think it is wrong that the head


of armed forces is intervening. What about the timings, because if as we


were talking, there isn't a settled position on the Labour side, on


Trident, one way or the other, before some key votes, that is going


to be difficult? Is Yes Labour are in a mess on this. Jeremy Corbyn is


against renewing Trident, the position of the party across the UK


is to renew it. The Scottish Labour Party have voted against renewing it


and in some ways he was saved from himself at the last Labour


conference when it wasn't debated, because it would probably have voted


to retain Trident and it would have meant if his new politics lets the


party make policy, he then presumably would have had to troop


into the lobby with the serves to renew Trident. In one way it suits


Jeremy Corbyn that no decision is made and until and if it will go his


way. Otherwise, he will be in embarrassing position. Worse than


now. That will be the key, the timing of the votes. On George


Osborne I asked about his credibility, how damaged is it or is


it not by the tax credit row? Well I think it is too early to say it has


damaged his chances for the leadership, because that is three


years away and there will be a lot of ups and Down's before that. The


tax credit measure is the biggest item, the biggest change at welfare


that I can remember in ten years of covering Parliament and it changed


eight million people and made them worse off, including three million


who will lose an average of a thousand pounds a year. That is


massive and it looks like George Osborne got the tactics wrong,


because he put it through the lords as well. He got the strategy wrong


and it was hurting hard working family and got the communication


wrong by saying there maybe mitigation and many Tory MPs are


baffled, because the things that George Osborne should be good at he


didn't. Thank you. Now, he's made the Fedora


his trademark accessory and he says Now former MP and London mayoral


hopeful, George Galloway, has plans to open a shop


specialising in vintage clothing. He's even put his money where his


mouth is and bought a lease on one In a moment we'll be talking to


the man himself but first a reminder of some other politicians


that like to cut a dash. # You can win the admiration


of the common population # You can be a star,


long as you're looking good! # You have made the main connection,


you can win the next election # Don't care who you are,


just leave them mesmerised, # Long as you're looking good


at how much you can get away with # You'll get treatment preferential


your main credential # It's a rule rule that's still


essentially iron-clad # Remember you can't look


back, long as you're looking good! # They air-brushed me. Who is the best


dressed politician apart from yourself. You showed a good cross


section. Even the unlikely Ronald Reagan, who I thought was imMacyou


latly -- well dressed. Even if his brain was missing. Both of your


guests this morning in fact are well dressed, well turned out. I won't


ask about me. What about Jeremy Corbyn? Well he is actually brushing


himself up well now I think. You thought he was a scruff before. He


looked fine at the Cenotaph in white tie and tails at the buck pas


reception -- Buckingham Palace reception for the chps the Chinese


president. He should have discovered this years ago. What about Zac


Goldsmith? Yes and he wears vintage clothes and his billionaire father


deceased, he wears his suits and wears him well. That is not Vince


thaj. -- vintage. Everything I'm wearing apart from the underwear and


socks is vintage. I buy my shirts which are bespoke British made, now


long extinct English tailors for ?10 a pop. I buy shirts every week at


?10 a time. You will pay ?100 for a new shirt made... You have to swap


contacts and cards. Give these guys some tips. You mentioned Reagan and


we focussed on Margaret Thatcher. Was she stylish. I may not be a


gentleman, but I know how gentlemen behave and it was impolite to


comment on any woman's dress. But no, I didn't. I thought he was going


soft. Do you think the BMA were wrong to turn down the Chancellor? I


thought it was lower middle class boredom. In a glass case. I am sure


it was a commercial decision that Margaret Thatcher would have


approved of. No one would have gone to see it. You know that is a point.


What, is it important to look good for politicians? I don't think


sharp, politicians need to look authentic. As I'm finished in the


House I put jeans on. I dress for the occasion. I want to make sure


your shop is a success. I like your suit and lapels. Don't worry I


haven't given up politicians. suit and lapels. Don't worry I


si Deek Khan be wok? Yes he is third place in the sattorial stakes. I'm


third place in the sattorial stakes. I'm


am on 33/1 today and Greens and Ukip are on 100/1. Me and Zac are out in


front sattorially. Yes. The campaign's going from


strength to strength. Have you decided about joining Labour, you


wanted there been an invitation? There has


been no invitation. It is a question of rescinding. They have to rescind


my unjust expulsion opposed by Mr Foot and Mr Benn and Mr Corbyn. But


they're showing no sign. Well, watch this space.


There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question was - what is the House of Commons due to debate this week?


(A) Moving the UK parliament to Strasbourg whilst restoration work


(B) Selling off Whitehall to build new homes.


(D) Putting a pop up bar in the House of Lords.


The knives are sharpened and the heat is on. It can only mean one thing.


Britain's best chefs are back in town.


They're here because they want this title. I'm really excited.


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