06/11/2015 Daily Politics


06/11/2015

Andrew Neil is joined by journalist Julia Hartley-Brewer and Kiran Stacey of the Financial Times to discuss the security situation in Sharm el-Sheikh and Labour's internal battles.


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Confusion in Sharm El-Sheikh as stranded British tourists are

:00:37.:00:45.

told to go back to their hotels and more flights are cancelled.

:00:46.:00:48.

Three police officers are hospitalised

:00:49.:00:51.

Can this sort of direct action ever be justified?

:00:52.:00:56.

He was one of UKIP's highest-profile ethnic minority candidates -

:00:57.:01:04.

now he says he's the victim of racial discrimination in the party.

:01:05.:01:07.

We'll be talking to Winston Mackenzie.

:01:08.:01:23.

And the unmistakable figure of George Galloway emerges from the

:01:24.:01:26.

I'll be asking the former MP and London mayoral hopeful

:01:27.:01:28.

about his plans to enter the vintage clothing market.

:01:29.:01:32.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today,

:01:33.:01:35.

two doyens of political style - there's some substance to them too,

:01:36.:01:38.

Kiran Stacey of the Financial Times and Julia Hartley Brewer.

:01:39.:01:49.

First this afternoon - flights were supposed to be starting to bring

:01:50.:01:52.

British holiday-makers back from the Egyptian resort of Sharm El Sheikh

:01:53.:01:55.

today, but there's considerable confusion about the number of planes

:01:56.:01:58.

that will be able to operate, and passengers are being told that

:01:59.:02:00.

they will have to fly without their luggage, which will be

:02:01.:02:03.

In a moment we'll catch up with our correspondent in Sharm.

:02:04.:02:08.

But first let's talk to our political correspondent,

:02:09.:02:10.

It is getting a bit messy now. Do we have a clear idea of the picture?

:02:11.:02:20.

Are the flights happening? Some flights are but yes a messy picture

:02:21.:02:25.

in Government as well as Sharm El-Sheikh. I'm just back from

:02:26.:02:28.

Downing Street's briefing. It looks like one charter airline, monarch

:02:29.:02:33.

are sending flights out and two easyJet flights have left for

:02:34.:02:37.

London. They were already at Sharm El-Sheikh airport. However it looks

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as though, what the Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin was

:02:44.:02:46.

talking about, that everyone who was meant to be home by Friday night

:02:47.:02:51.

will be, there will be in excess of 20 flights, looks unlikely. Downing

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Street is saying the situation is complex and fluid. Off the record,

:02:54.:02:57.

as I understand t the problem is this - in effect they think an

:02:58.:03:01.

agreement has been made with Egyptian officials to get the

:03:02.:03:06.

flights in and people out but it is not clear whether the Egyptian

:03:07.:03:08.

officials are withdrawing cooperation and making it as

:03:09.:03:11.

difficult as possible or whether people on the ground at the airport

:03:12.:03:15.

are simply saying, they are not used to having this extra capacity and

:03:16.:03:19.

can't deal with it but the upshot now is that there can be no

:03:20.:03:23.

guarantee that everyone who should have been back from Sharm El-Sheikh

:03:24.:03:27.

by this evening, will be. The British Government has firmly fixed

:03:28.:03:30.

it colours to the mast that this was a terrorist attack. The Egyptians

:03:31.:03:33.

and the Russians, for their own reasons will be hoping it is not.

:03:34.:03:39.

And indeed may not be that keen to cooperate to discover if it was. The

:03:40.:03:42.

British Government could find itself at some stage in a rather

:03:43.:03:45.

embarrassing stand-off with the Egyptians and the Russians as to

:03:46.:03:48.

what actually caused this. That's right. It is not clear whether that

:03:49.:03:55.

stand-off, which I think has already already begun given the comments we

:03:56.:04:00.

have had from Moscow and some Egyptian officials, whether that is

:04:01.:04:04.

delaying the evacuation of British tourists from Sharm El-Sheikh. I

:04:05.:04:09.

asked the number Ten spokesman about 20 minutes ago whether there was any

:04:10.:04:14.

new information relevant to the investigation of the crash that has

:04:15.:04:19.

been shared with President Abdel Fatah al-Sisi who is at the MoD this

:04:20.:04:23.

morning or the Russian allies. He said the situation hasn't changed.

:04:24.:04:28.

He said based on intelligence and other factors, it is most like that

:04:29.:04:33.

a bomb caused the jet to go down but they would not say whether there was

:04:34.:04:38.

any information to reinforce that. He said simply there was a dialogue

:04:39.:04:43.

and what they were sharing was an explanation for Britain's actions. I

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understand the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, he has been using

:04:47.:04:49.

this terrorist attack, as the British Government believes it is,

:04:50.:04:52.

to talk about the broader threat from Islamic state? Yes, he has

:04:53.:04:56.

talked about the broader threat in the region. Certainly there is some

:04:57.:05:05.

charter about whether there was the Islamic State off-shoot in sign eye

:05:06.:05:09.

who was responsible. But -- in Sinai. But he renewed his call for

:05:10.:05:14.

an extension of British air strikes in Iraq to Syria.

:05:15.:05:15.

I'm briefing MPs on the state of the campaign against Isil, and I'm

:05:16.:05:28.

asking MPs particularly to reflect on the fact that the streets of

:05:29.:05:31.

Britain, at the moment, are being kept safe by American, Australian

:05:32.:05:33.

and French aircraft, striking at the heart of Isil

:05:34.:05:35.

in north-east Syria, from where Isil is organised and directed.

:05:36.:05:38.

Britain is playing its role in the campaign against Iraq

:05:39.:05:47.

but it makes no sense for British aircraft to have to turn back

:05:48.:05:52.

at an artificial border that Isis itself does not respect.

:05:53.:05:56.

We put Michael Fallon's comments to Downing Street this morning. They

:05:57.:06:01.

are saying the Prime Minister's view on Syrian air strikes hasn't

:06:02.:06:03.

changed. Certainly the case has to be made but there needs to be a

:06:04.:06:07.

consensus in the House of Commons. And that consensus is going to be

:06:08.:06:11.

far more important, when it comes to air strikes, than anything that

:06:12.:06:14.

mayville happened over the skies of Egypt. Thank you for that and

:06:15.:06:16.

bringing us up-to-date. We can talk now to our Correspondent

:06:17.:06:19.

Sally Nabil in Sharm El-Sheikh. Is the British evacuation now

:06:20.:06:31.

getting under way? Yes, what we understand so far is that two

:06:32.:06:34.

flights have left Sharm El-Sheikh already going back to the UK. But

:06:35.:06:38.

there has been a lot of confusion over the past hour. We don't nose

:06:39.:06:43.

the schedule for the rest of the flights today but the British

:06:44.:06:46.

Ambassador has spoken to journalists a short while ago and said that the

:06:47.:06:49.

Egyptian authorities haven't blocked or cancelled any flights, it was

:06:50.:06:53.

just a matter of rescheduling. What we know is that the UK wanted to

:06:54.:06:59.

send many flights at one go and the Sharm El-Sheikh airport is not a big

:07:00.:07:03.

one, so logisticically speaking, it cannot take all of the flights at

:07:04.:07:06.

one time. So they are rescheduling the flights and that might take a

:07:07.:07:12.

much longer time to repatriot the British holiday-makers back to the

:07:13.:07:15.

UK and people are growing really frustrated because they wanted to

:07:16.:07:18.

get back home as soon as possible. So, as it looks to you at the

:07:19.:07:23.

moment, Sally, the British people stranded there, they could be there

:07:24.:07:26.

over the weekend and perhaps even into the early part of next week?

:07:27.:07:31.

Yes, we have no time frame actually for how long this process is going

:07:32.:07:36.

to take and many tourists I have spoken to this morning have been

:07:37.:07:43.

complaining a lot about lack of information, lack of communication.

:07:44.:07:49.

One of them told me that he has no money to extend his booking at the

:07:50.:07:53.

hotel and he does not know what he is going to do. They were hoping to

:07:54.:07:58.

get back home today but it seems that the process will be a bit

:07:59.:08:01.

lengthy because what we understand is that the British and the Egyptian

:08:02.:08:04.

authorities are co-ordinating to bring the holiday-makers back home

:08:05.:08:07.

but things are much more complicated from a logistics point of view. Some

:08:08.:08:10.

of the tourists now are back to their hotels until further notice.

:08:11.:08:13.

Let me just ask you one final question, Sally. The British, those

:08:14.:08:17.

that can get out, are being allowed out, but only with hand luggage.

:08:18.:08:20.

Certainly with very restricted luggage. Is that an independencation

:08:21.:08:24.

that the British still don't trust the baggage security at Sharm el

:08:25.:08:31.

Sheikh? In a way, yes. Security measures have been tightened after a

:08:32.:08:35.

British aviation expert visited the airport two days ago. We have seen

:08:36.:08:39.

long queues of people waiting for check-in because the security checks

:08:40.:08:44.

are taking a much longer time. Three or four days ago I was here and

:08:45.:08:48.

things were much quieter, even on the day of the crash. The scene was

:08:49.:08:51.

totally different from today. Now you can see long queues of people

:08:52.:08:55.

inside the terminals waiting for their hand luggage to be checked.

:08:56.:09:02.

The picture has changed after Britain decided to stop its flights

:09:03.:09:06.

to Sharm el Sheikh. I asked the people how they saw the new security

:09:07.:09:10.

measures. Some were growing impatient with T others told me that

:09:11.:09:14.

it'll make them feel safer. -- with it.

:09:15.:09:17.

We can see the queues behind you. Thank you for joining us live from

:09:18.:09:21.

Sharm El-Sheikh. Let me come back to the gee yes

:09:22.:09:27.

politics of this. If it -- the geopolitics. If it turns out to be a

:09:28.:09:32.

terrorist attack. This will have been the most serious Islamist

:09:33.:09:36.

attack on what you would call Western assets, Western people since

:09:37.:09:39.

9/11. The implications of this are huge? If Russia accepts T we have no

:09:40.:09:45.

idea if it was a deliberate attack on a Russian flight or it could have

:09:46.:09:49.

been on an easyJet or monarch flight back to Britain. We don't know. We

:09:50.:09:53.

don't know for sure. Clearly there are massive implications. There are

:09:54.:09:55.

also implications for domestic travel and politics as well. The

:09:56.:09:59.

theatre of security that we do see at our airports which we have had

:10:00.:10:05.

since 9/11 and since sevenself here, particularly, the -- and since 7/7.

:10:06.:10:13.

It meaningless. Certainly in developing countries where we have

:10:14.:10:19.

seen people buying their pay past security. Perhaps we have to accept

:10:20.:10:22.

that this is possibility that could still happen to any one at any time.

:10:23.:10:27.

But the biggest threat, in terms of geopolitics and in terms of Russia,

:10:28.:10:30.

if Russia does accept this has happened, is it good for Putin, in

:10:31.:10:35.

terms of keeping tension out of what is going home in Russia, which is an

:10:36.:10:40.

economic basket case, and actually focuses more attention on what they

:10:41.:10:44.

want to do on Syria. Or will it mean that the Russian people will say -

:10:45.:10:48.

look, we don't want to get involved. This is not for us, we don't want

:10:49.:10:53.

Russians dying at the expense of you helping Assad.

:10:54.:10:56.

If Islamic State has developed a capability to penetrate the security

:10:57.:10:58.

arrangements of airports like Sharm El-Sheikh, there are plenty of

:10:59.:11:02.

airports like that, not just around the world but in that region. That

:11:03.:11:08.

is a new dimension that Islamic State has, which has huge potential

:11:09.:11:12.

in how we handle it. I think what is worrying is, is we know that

:11:13.:11:19.

Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula has been trying this for years this.

:11:20.:11:26.

Won't trigger a bomb that will trigger the metical detector. They

:11:27.:11:29.

have tried it four or five times. Has it now managed to develop the

:11:30.:11:33.

technology to almost leap frog, aldividia, with whom of course they

:11:34.:11:38.

have fallen out huge lane do this sophisticated attack. I think at the

:11:39.:11:44.

moment the Brits except it is not case and there is enormously lapse

:11:45.:11:48.

security on the ground and something which triggered a warning didn't.

:11:49.:11:52.

The Egyptian have said that we the British, sent our experts there ten

:11:53.:11:58.

months ago and it seemed to be OK. They have the scansers but pay ?10

:11:59.:12:03.

to get through. . Or if you go through and it beeps and the

:12:04.:12:07.

security guard says - I'm too stressed on you. I think that's more

:12:08.:12:11.

a reasonable explanation than developing new technology. Very

:12:12.:12:15.

worrying. It is not the most clever technology they will have used. It

:12:16.:12:20.

is not beyond the wit of your average university student. Or

:12:21.:12:23.

someone managed to plant it into the baggage hold after it was full. This

:12:24.:12:27.

story began with the plane coming down last Saturday. It has divom

:12:28.:12:30.

nated the news this week. It'll continue, I suggest -- it has

:12:31.:12:34.

dominated the news. It'll continue to dominate and there

:12:35.:12:35.

will be further developments. whose giant effigy was burnt last

:12:36.:12:37.

night at the infamous annual bonfire celebrations in the usually

:12:38.:12:43.

peaceful Sussex town of Lewes? At the end of the show,

:12:44.:12:45.

Julia and Kieran will give us Now, Labour party members and

:12:46.:12:54.

supporters may have got the leader they wanted,

:12:55.:12:57.

but Jeremy Corbyn was supported by just a handful of Labour MPs

:12:58.:13:00.

in September's leadership election. Many turned down front bench

:13:01.:13:03.

and shadow cabinet jobs, but now centrist Labour MPs -

:13:04.:13:06.

amongst them some of Mr Corbyn's biggest detractors - have found

:13:07.:13:09.

a new platform within the party. The Parliamentary Labour Party's

:13:10.:13:26.

departmental back bench committees have been dubbed the "Shadow Shadow

:13:27.:13:32.

Cabinet". And before his election as Labour

:13:33.:13:34.

leader, Jeremy Corbyn declared himself

:13:35.:13:35.

a big fan, saying there were, " Well, as elections for

:13:36.:13:40.

the committees concluded last night, None of the 17 new chairmen had

:13:41.:13:44.

backed his leadership campaign - a result which prompted one MP to

:13:45.:13:48.

describe the committee chairmen They include the pro-Trident

:13:49.:13:51.

John Woodock, who will chair This summer he warned if Mr Corbyn

:13:52.:13:54.

was elected as Labour Leader, "We can wave goodbye to any hope of

:13:55.:13:58.

electability." Tristram Hunt,

:13:59.:14:01.

who has said he has "substantial political differences" with Mr

:14:02.:14:05.

Corbyn, will chair the Communities And former Shadow Chancellor,

:14:06.:14:07.

Chris Leslie - he's attacked the "starry-eyed,

:14:08.:14:16.

hard left" economics of Mr Corbyn - To add to Mr Corbyn's potential

:14:17.:14:18.

headaches, last night Jim McMahon was chosen to

:14:19.:14:24.

be Labour's candidate in the The Oldham Council leader won 232

:14:25.:14:28.

votes compared to 17 won by ex-MP and close Corbyn ally

:14:29.:14:33.

Chris Williamson. And for a full list

:14:34.:14:40.

of the declared candidates in the Oldham West and Royton

:14:41.:14:43.

by-election, visit the BBC website. And joining me now is Mike Gapes,

:14:44.:14:55.

who has been elected as chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party's

:14:56.:14:58.

Foreign Affairs Committee, and Ronnie Campbell, a Labour MP

:14:59.:15:02.

and supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. Welcome to you both. Mike Gapes, is

:15:03.:15:16.

it just a happy coincidence that none of the shadow Shadow Cabinet

:15:17.:15:19.

winners are Jeremy Corbyn supporters? I think we reflect the

:15:20.:15:25.

views of the Parliamentary party. All of us who have been chosen to

:15:26.:15:29.

chair these backbench committees stood. There was the election, in my

:15:30.:15:35.

case, several contested elections, and people who have not nominated

:15:36.:15:40.

Jeremy Corbyn were widely supported by our colleagues. Does that not

:15:41.:15:46.

illustrate a systemic problem in the Labour Party, that the Parliamentary

:15:47.:15:49.

Labour Party, and the Labour Party in the country have become two very

:15:50.:15:54.

different animals. We will see how it works. The party in a country

:15:55.:15:59.

voted for Mr Corbyn, and the Parliamentary party votes for people

:16:00.:16:03.

like you. The Parliamentary party has a very important role over party

:16:04.:16:11.

policy over the next few years. No leader can be successful if they

:16:12.:16:14.

don't take their Parliamentary colleagues with them. Ronnie

:16:15.:16:18.

Campbell, what do you make of it? Does it have the smell of a clue

:16:19.:16:25.

about it? No, it doesn't, but these are talking shops, these committees.

:16:26.:16:30.

They do not make policies. The Labour Party members and the

:16:31.:16:34.

affiliates make policy. That's not what Jeremy Corbyn said before the

:16:35.:16:38.

elections, he said they were very important and useful in developing

:16:39.:16:43.

policy. Yes, within Parliament itself, they debate whatever the

:16:44.:16:47.

issue is coming up, foreign affairs next week, of course they will be

:16:48.:16:50.

debated, but they do not make policy. Mike Gapes, you tweeted, you

:16:51.:16:59.

are quite a voracious tweeter, there is now no collective Shadow Cabinet

:17:00.:17:03.

responsibility in our party, no clarity of economic policy, no

:17:04.:17:08.

credible leadership. Will there be collective shadow Shadow Cabinet

:17:09.:17:13.

responsibility? There is no shadow Shadow Cabinet. It's a nice

:17:14.:17:16.

headline, but the reality is the Parliamentary party will want to

:17:17.:17:21.

work collectively and cohesively. The backbench committees will play a

:17:22.:17:25.

big role in the input to development of policy. For example, we will

:17:26.:17:29.

choose to be pulled to be on a National policy Forum, to be part of

:17:30.:17:33.

that process. Mr Campbell says you will not be able to decide policy.

:17:34.:17:38.

Policy will be decided by the party overall, but the members of

:17:39.:17:46.

Parliament are an essential part of the process and no party can win an

:17:47.:17:49.

election without the support of leadership and membership and the

:17:50.:17:50.

Parliamentary party working together. Do you think there's the

:17:51.:17:57.

danger a growing division between the attitudes of the Parliamentary

:17:58.:18:01.

party and the policies and demands and attitudes of the Labour Party in

:18:02.:18:05.

the country? The Labour members of Parliament have to remember they are

:18:06.:18:10.

selected by their local Labour Party and voted on by their constituents.

:18:11.:18:14.

They are not the Labour Party, which is made up of members and

:18:15.:18:18.

affiliates, and they are the ones who decide policy. They think they

:18:19.:18:23.

will take over the Parliamentary Labour Party and run the party, they

:18:24.:18:26.

are not running the party and never will. They are in Parliament. I'm

:18:27.:18:33.

saying the Labour Party is a Parliamentary party which wins or

:18:34.:18:38.

loses elections. Without members of Parliament, including those of us

:18:39.:18:42.

who have been clearly elected by our colleagues campaigning and working

:18:43.:18:47.

collectively, if we have an attempt to try to pick off MPs or drive MPs

:18:48.:18:52.

into positions where we no longer are able to speak out for what we

:18:53.:18:56.

believe, then that will be to the detriment of the Labour Party and we

:18:57.:19:00.

will lose elections. We have got to get it right. We have to have a

:19:01.:19:04.

leadership that listens and works with the Parliamentary Labour Party.

:19:05.:19:09.

You are talking about deselection again. They are the only ones

:19:10.:19:13.

mentioning it, as far as I am concerned, and the press. Any

:19:14.:19:24.

policy, where ever, to deselect members of Parliament, that is up to

:19:25.:19:28.

the Labour Party. The members. They will select and deselect. Ken

:19:29.:19:36.

Livingstone said on Sunday, the former Mayor of London, if an MP was

:19:37.:19:41.

seen not to represent the views of the constituency party, then the

:19:42.:19:45.

constituency party would be within its rights to deselect and get

:19:46.:19:48.

somebody who more accurately reflects what they want to believe.

:19:49.:19:54.

As I said, the local Labour Party selects the candidate, and they can

:19:55.:19:58.

deselect them. Not many candidates in my time, and I've been in

:19:59.:20:02.

Parliament a long time, have been deselected. We have boundary changes

:20:03.:20:07.

coming up so there might be a lot of need for reselection. That's another

:20:08.:20:12.

matter. You might have two MPs fighting for one constituency. They

:20:13.:20:15.

will have to put their names in the Hat and hope they can fight and win

:20:16.:20:22.

the seat. That's not deselection. Mike Gapes, you said in the 1980s

:20:23.:20:27.

you were never taken seriously on defence and there's a real danger

:20:28.:20:30.

you could get into a similar situation. Yes, I was a candidate in

:20:31.:20:36.

1983, the same time Jeremy was a candidate in Islington North, and I

:20:37.:20:40.

was in Ilford North. In Ilford North we had huge rallies, big

:20:41.:20:46.

demonstrations and enthusiasm among activists but a terrible election

:20:47.:20:50.

result. We have to recognise as a Labour Party, that just entered

:20:51.:20:53.

using activists is not necessarily going to win the election. We have

:20:54.:20:58.

to cut through to people in England, in particular, who didn't vote for

:20:59.:21:03.

us last time. We have to win 106 more seats to have a majority and we

:21:04.:21:07.

have to recognise we have a big challenge. Is there a danger that

:21:08.:21:11.

the kind of people who have joined into the Labour Party to help elect

:21:12.:21:19.

Jeremy Corbyn, they have invigorated your party, and you have a lot more

:21:20.:21:22.

members, but perhaps they are not representative of the wider

:21:23.:21:27.

electorate? I don't know, I've had a big increase of nearly 600, but I

:21:28.:21:33.

haven't met many of them. They might just be ordinary union members. I

:21:34.:21:39.

don't know who they are. As far as I'm concerned, there is no takeover

:21:40.:21:43.

of the Labour Party. It has gone to the left, of course, by collecting

:21:44.:21:48.

Jeremy Corbyn. It's a different idea and tactic to the past, but we have

:21:49.:21:53.

just lost two elections. We can't run alongside the Tories and have

:21:54.:21:57.

better policies than them, we have been beaten twice. Should you get to

:21:58.:22:02.

meet the new members? I have e-mailed all of them. Inviting them

:22:03.:22:08.

into the party, now they have paid ?3, but I'm not getting many

:22:09.:22:12.

responses. Have you met union members, Mike Gapes? I've had a

:22:13.:22:18.

similar experience. I've e-mailed twice new members, my constituency

:22:19.:22:22.

party has doubled. I've e-mailed twice to say to come out knocking on

:22:23.:22:27.

doors with the Greater London Authority candidate, and both

:22:28.:22:30.

occasions I've had a handful of new members come out, but no response

:22:31.:22:39.

from the ?3 payers. Is it true, using the media shorthand of the

:22:40.:22:43.

shadow Shadow Cabinet, that you have the toe of the shadow Shadow

:22:44.:22:47.

Cabinet, that you have veto? I don't think the right of veto applies. I

:22:48.:22:52.

will be working with Hilary Benn, Shadow Foreign Secretary, and the

:22:53.:22:59.

pro-European shadow minister, to campaign and work for Labour

:23:00.:23:03.

policies. Can you speak from the dispatch box? I would have thought

:23:04.:23:07.

it was unlikely. Technically you have the right to speak. Technically

:23:08.:23:11.

and theoretically. I would love to, but I don't think I will be asked.

:23:12.:23:16.

Would you like to see Mike Gapes is big from the dispatch box at shadow

:23:17.:23:23.

shadow foreign affairs member? I might have a bash myself! What

:23:24.:23:28.

subject would you talk about? I would have a bash at the economy.

:23:29.:23:35.

Looking at one other subject. Earlier this week Jeremy Corbyn

:23:36.:23:38.

suggested British air strikes on ice is it in Iraq should be

:23:39.:23:47.

reconsidered. -- on Isis. The government wants to extend air

:23:48.:23:49.

strikes into Syrian territory because they say that is where the

:23:50.:23:53.

supply lines and bases are. Mr Corbyn is now questioning whether we

:23:54.:23:58.

should be in Iraq. I think he's wrong. I think Daesh, Isil, are a

:23:59.:24:05.

fundamental threat to Iraq, other Arab countries and ourselves. The

:24:06.:24:08.

reality is that British forces and other coalition forces are in Iraq,

:24:09.:24:14.

at the invitation of the Iraqi government. It is in accordance with

:24:15.:24:16.

international law and I think we should be doing more there. I know

:24:17.:24:21.

you need to see the details and what the government is actually planning,

:24:22.:24:24.

but on general principle you think Britain should take the fight into

:24:25.:24:29.

Syria? I don't think it's logical to be hitting targets in Iraq and not

:24:30.:24:35.

being able to carry on a few miles over the desert to hit targets in

:24:36.:24:39.

their headquarters in Syria. It seems illogical. Mr Campbell, I

:24:40.:24:45.

assume you don't want to extend bombing into Syria. I may be wrong,

:24:46.:24:49.

you tell me, but do you agree with Mr Corbyn that we should be

:24:50.:24:53.

reconsidering bombing in Iraq, which we have been asked to do by the

:24:54.:24:57.

Iraqi government. The Russians have started bombing and they haven't got

:24:58.:25:01.

an answer. And they have just lost a plane. Do you think the British

:25:02.:25:05.

government is right, there is a clear connection? I think there is,

:25:06.:25:11.

that it was a bomb. It will be there people who have done it. If we start

:25:12.:25:16.

bombing, the consequences for us are there. Do you think we should stop

:25:17.:25:21.

bombing in Iraq as well? Yes. I don't think bombing makes any

:25:22.:25:24.

difference at all. You are killing a lot of innocent people to maybe get

:25:25.:25:30.

half a dozen Isis people. It's an interesting proposition, terrible if

:25:31.:25:35.

true, but do we have evidence that the British Tornado bombing has

:25:36.:25:39.

killed innocent people? We had before. We don't know, because they

:25:40.:25:44.

haven't been bombing. But the bombing in Iraq. We haven't been

:25:45.:25:50.

doing that much. Not a great deal. Just to speak to my two guests. The

:25:51.:25:54.

Labour Party story has a long way to go. It's clear listening to this, a

:25:55.:26:01.

lot of matters to be reconciled, and clearly tensions between the

:26:02.:26:03.

parliamentary party and the membership. They are now completely

:26:04.:26:10.

separate entities. Two months into Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and they

:26:11.:26:13.

are talking to themselves. Not to be electorate at large. A lot of these

:26:14.:26:21.

journalists have never even heard of these committees inside the Labour

:26:22.:26:27.

Party. I think it's extraordinary. 1117 parliamentary party chairs

:26:28.:26:32.

nominated Liz Kendall. Perhaps as much as the whole membership! -- 11

:26:33.:26:41.

out of 17 Parliamentary party chairs. What is interesting about

:26:42.:26:47.

what these gentlemen are saying is that new members are not showing up.

:26:48.:26:51.

I've heard it from activist friends in the Labour Party, they say the

:26:52.:26:56.

new guys flooding in, they lumbered us with Jeremy Corbyn, and I'm

:26:57.:27:01.

talking about centrist people here, they feel lumbered by Jeremy Corbyn,

:27:02.:27:05.

but they are not turning up on the doorstep. There is talk of

:27:06.:27:09.

deselection, but they are not there in numbers to engage with the Labour

:27:10.:27:13.

Party. Long-standing Labour Party members were not given the chance to

:27:14.:27:18.

vote for socialism, and not surprisingly, they voted for

:27:19.:27:21.

socialism. If those members want to take over the party they have to

:27:22.:27:25.

ring gauge. You mean me here today and gone tomorrow type?

:27:26.:27:30.

I'm sure if Mr Campbell and Mike Gapes invite these members round for

:27:31.:27:39.

a cup of tea they will be happy to join them and tell us what their

:27:40.:27:43.

attitudes are and how important they will be for the party. I thank you

:27:44.:27:44.

both for joining us. Now, remember, remember the 5th of

:27:45.:27:47.

November - and if you were out in central London last night, you might

:27:48.:27:50.

have had a little help courtesy of protesters wearing Guido Fawkes

:27:51.:27:53.

masks. The Million Mask March, associated with a group called

:27:54.:27:56.

Anonymous calls itself the "Largest They had events and other UK and US

:27:57.:28:11.

cities. Police in London were said to be braced for a turnout of 18000

:28:12.:28:16.

and warned of an element intent on criminality. There were five arrests

:28:17.:28:20.

last night and three police officers were hospitalised. Didn't look like

:28:21.:28:24.

18,000 on the streets. We kept an eye on what was going on.

:28:25.:28:37.

The whole thing was organised on social media. Facebook said 18,000

:28:38.:29:00.

people would come. We walked down Whitehall to Sarah 's of our

:29:01.:29:04.

streets, not revolution. -- shouts of. I'm not sure where we will end

:29:05.:29:09.

up, and I'm not sure this lot know either. A lot of us are saying that

:29:10.:29:14.

enough is enough. If you know the realities of what's going on then

:29:15.:29:22.

you would be joining in. Free hugs. It did get violent last year, didn't

:29:23.:29:28.

it? I'm a peaceful person, and that's how I will remain.

:29:29.:29:31.

Well, it has been going for less than an hour but already

:29:32.:29:34.

Over the other side there is a line of police on police horses

:29:35.:30:02.

The crowd has been pushing backwards and forwards

:30:03.:30:05.

A lot of protesters running around and police running around.

:30:06.:30:12.

Protesters shouting "kettle, kettle" they are concerned they are

:30:13.:30:14.

Ie stuck in this area here and not being able to run off,

:30:15.:30:18.

We have seen several thousand protesters but we are not

:30:19.:30:24.

That seems to be the nature of this whole march.

:30:25.:30:28.

We have found them and they are now on Pall Mall.

:30:29.:30:30.

And certainly a big column of people walking up this way.

:30:31.:30:33.

Is this going to make a difference, this march tonight?

:30:34.:30:36.

I don't think it will, but I want us to hear the voices.

:30:37.:30:42.

We don't want to fight but we are going to have to fight soon.

:30:43.:30:45.

It is raining, you don't mind the rain?

:30:46.:30:47.

Well, there was a flurry of activity,

:30:48.:31:03.

suddenly the police arrived and quite literally blocked the road.

:31:04.:31:06.

There have been some shouts that the kettle is on

:31:07.:31:13.

but I imagine that's not the kettle being on in a good way.

:31:14.:31:16.

The protesters were told they have to stop protesting after 9.00pm.

:31:17.:31:19.

Quite what happens next I'm not sure.

:31:20.:31:25.

In the end it didn't take long to clear them. Elsewhere there were

:31:26.:31:31.

small pockets of violence and three police officers were injured,

:31:32.:31:34.

needing hospital treatment. At least 50 arrests were made, mainly for

:31:35.:31:38.

public order offences. And some of the protesters were disappointed

:31:39.:31:45.

with how it turned out. It is about making a statement and saying - we

:31:46.:31:50.

are not happy. We are not happy with what is going on. Do you think

:31:51.:31:54.

tonight will have made any difference? Unfortunately it wasn't,

:31:55.:31:58.

no. Of course it won't. It is not really a march. It is just people

:31:59.:32:02.

standinger around in a corner. They are scattered around. They didn't

:32:03.:32:06.

get together. If they did get together, it would have been a

:32:07.:32:09.

revolution. I think the weather has put everyone off, to be honest. A

:32:10.:32:16.

very British approach to the revolution, the weather.

:32:17.:32:18.

And we're joined now by Adam Clifford of the Class War party, who

:32:19.:32:21.

What was last night's march against? Against a lot of things, austerity.

:32:22.:32:31.

The state that London is N the desperation of the people. There is

:32:32.:32:35.

a lot of homeless at the moment. -- London is in. That's off the scale

:32:36.:32:39.

at the moment. I myself am actually homeless at the moment. So I feel

:32:40.:32:46.

very - yeah, I salute the guys who went out last night but it was

:32:47.:32:50.

boring. It was such a police display, a military march. You know,

:32:51.:32:54.

nothing could really happen. Are you worried that the whole - this whole

:32:55.:32:58.

movement is running out of steam? There weren't that many people there

:32:59.:33:05.

last night? ? It is just the sort of crunchdown, really. It is just the

:33:06.:33:10.

police. There was as many police as there was protesters last night and

:33:11.:33:15.

you know, in Trafalgar Square, all these sections were being read out,

:33:16.:33:18.

that you couldn't cover up. It was police state. Orwellian, like 1984.

:33:19.:33:24.

They couldn't find any of the organisers to deal with in advance

:33:25.:33:28.

It is Anonymous, so there are no... That is That's what the thing is.

:33:29.:33:34.

Have you undermined yourselves by being a bit unfocussed. There were

:33:35.:33:38.

so many different protesters and issue last night. I was looking at

:33:39.:33:42.

the general concept of being against capitalism. You mentioned

:33:43.:33:48.

homelessness. Animal rights was one. What is happening to South Korean

:33:49.:33:51.

dogs, paedophiles. Is there not a danger that you are firing on too

:33:52.:33:56.

many fronts? No, I think all this stuff crosses over. I think it is a

:33:57.:34:01.

march of the underdogs, really. It is the people, the other side of the

:34:02.:34:05.

fence, that are really feeling it. You know, London is in this kind of

:34:06.:34:09.

state at the moment. It has become Victorian again. You have the super

:34:10.:34:13.

rich and the super poor. So, I mean, what are we meant to do? You say it

:34:14.:34:19.

is the march of the underdogs. A number of people were tweeting who

:34:20.:34:23.

watched T members of the public. One said - nice to see anti-capitalists

:34:24.:34:28.

queueing patiently at McDonald's while on iPhones. Well, we are

:34:29.:34:35.

underdogings, actually. We could not do anything last night with the

:34:36.:34:41.

police in full-scale displaying all their techniques, doing all their

:34:42.:34:44.

dances up and down and all that stuff with all their armour and guns

:34:45.:34:48.

and tasers and all that business, really. Explain, what is the purpose

:34:49.:34:53.

of the mask? Well, I mean, the bottom line is - say you had a job,

:34:54.:34:58.

you were trying to get by and you don't believe this is a democracy or

:34:59.:35:02.

something is not fair, you could go out on the street and go to a

:35:03.:35:06.

protest and basically be profiled. There is this whole thing of joint

:35:07.:35:10.

enterprise now, you could be picked up a few days after the event just

:35:11.:35:15.

for going. Maybe you didn't do anything, anything violent and you

:35:16.:35:19.

are named, shaped and framed and all the rest of it and probably lose the

:35:20.:35:25.

basic prif larges you have. We have cover -- privileges. We have covered

:35:26.:35:30.

these on years gone by, pretty huge ones. This one was smaller. For Guy

:35:31.:35:36.

Fawkes night, I suggest it is a damp squib. It was boring. I went home

:35:37.:35:41.

early. I don't think these protests that really work in the past will

:35:42.:35:45.

work again in the future. I think there will have to be new protests.

:35:46.:35:50.

That's the way it will have to go. Does the violence help by drawing

:35:51.:35:54.

attention, or does it make it easier for your protests to be dismissed? I

:35:55.:35:58.

mean throwing fireworks at the police horse, for example. You know

:35:59.:36:03.

how much the British love animals? I love animals, too, but you have to

:36:04.:36:07.

take a different approach with this whole situation, with animals and

:36:08.:36:11.

what they are trained to do, charge at crowds. They weren't charging at

:36:12.:36:17.

crowds. A little bit last night. They were simply around Buckingham

:36:18.:36:21.

Palace and some people threw fire crackers at them. Was that a wise

:36:22.:36:26.

thing to do? I don't about wise. I have seen police brutality. I have

:36:27.:36:29.

seen police knock girls around and all sorts of things, I have no faith

:36:30.:36:34.

in the police. Why are we taking it out on the horse? Why are we going

:36:35.:36:39.

on about the horse? Because fireworks were thrown and smoke

:36:40.:36:43.

grenades. The question I am asking you, is whether this does your case,

:36:44.:36:47.

does it draw attention and you get coverage or people look at what you

:36:48.:36:51.

are protesting for or does it make it easier for people to dismiss you.

:36:52.:36:55.

That was my question. I don't think people that were on this march,

:36:56.:36:58.

fighting for this particular cause, really care about being dismissed.

:36:59.:37:02.

Because, you know - I mean this is a bit of a circus, it is a spectacle.

:37:03.:37:08.

The media is a whole circus. We know what the media can do to us. It is

:37:09.:37:13.

the bottom line. We just carry on, carry on fighting for what we

:37:14.:37:16.

believe in. Is this getk anywhere? It doesn't look at it. That is your

:37:17.:37:22.

point of view. What are you doing? I was interested you said the protests

:37:23.:37:26.

might not have been working recently. That's what you said.

:37:27.:37:29.

Would you say it is getting anywhere? Is it achieving what you

:37:30.:37:33.

wanted? I don't think the one last night did but some other protests

:37:34.:37:37.

have worked, raising awareness and could lead to a bigger thing that

:37:38.:37:41.

could change things for a lot of people, sure. I remember thinking

:37:42.:37:46.

this in 2010-11 when student protests were happening around

:37:47.:37:50.

tuition fees. You felt - is this a moment, is this when the

:37:51.:37:53.

Conservative Party in particular and obviously the Lib Dems will feel the

:37:54.:37:57.

effect of the public anger brewing. It didn't happen because most people

:37:58.:38:01.

don't feel T Most people, who is most people? The people who vote n

:38:02.:38:05.

May, we had an election. That's how we find out. You are talking about

:38:06.:38:09.

believe who belief in the establishment. Works really for you,

:38:10.:38:12.

sweet heart. Thank you for patronising me. I would like to ask

:38:13.:38:20.

a question. You talked about it big boring, I don't want to put words

:38:21.:38:24.

into your mouth. My guess is you would have liked lots of violence,

:38:25.:38:28.

attacking police officers and damaging public and private property

:38:29.:38:32.

s that what you would have preferred S that your requesting anything"?

:38:33.:38:42.

How did women get the vote? Have you seen the Suffragetteses film? It was

:38:43.:38:47.

a crap film. For the huge numbers of young people, particularly young

:38:48.:38:49.

people from poorer families who don't vote. What do you know about

:38:50.:38:54.

poor families? Can I finish. You don't know. Well I'm just a

:38:55.:38:59.

sweetheart or a word you called me before we came on air, rather more

:39:00.:39:03.

rudely that we can't say Whatever. All right. We need young people to

:39:04.:39:08.

get the vote, rather than smashing up London. I have a feeling this is

:39:09.:39:13.

not going to go any further Well thank you. Hold on, let me read this

:39:14.:39:16.

bit and then you can depart. Now - if you're spending ?27,000

:39:17.:39:19.

on something you would expect Today

:39:20.:39:22.

the Government are outlining reforms to the higher education sector

:39:23.:39:29.

in a Green Paper that they hope will They'll let universities increase

:39:30.:39:32.

their fees beyond the current ?9,000 a year

:39:33.:39:34.

limit but only if they improve Earlier Jo Johnson,

:39:35.:39:37.

the Universities Minister, was asked if this meant universities

:39:38.:39:40.

that were under-performing would be There's a lot of excellence

:39:41.:39:48.

in our higher education system. We have four out of the world's

:39:49.:39:53.

top ten best universities. 38 out of

:39:54.:39:56.

the world's top 100 universities. So there's a lot of excellence

:39:57.:39:58.

in our system. But there is also the patchiness

:39:59.:40:04.

and the bit of variability in the quality of teaching within

:40:05.:40:07.

and in between universities. That's what we want to

:40:08.:40:09.

constructively shine a light on, so we can all work together to lift

:40:10.:40:12.

overall teaching standards, so students get

:40:13.:40:14.

the best quality experience Taxpayers will benefit underwriting

:40:15.:40:16.

the system, and employers will benefit because they will get

:40:17.:40:35.

a better skilled workforce coming We're joined now by Dave Phoenix

:40:36.:40:37.

of the "million plus" He's also Vice Chancellor of

:40:38.:40:40.

the London South Bank University. What is your take on what the

:40:41.:40:48.

Government is now saying? I'm pleased to see the Government

:40:49.:40:51.

putting this paper forward. I think there are a number of really

:40:52.:40:55.

important principles in there. They are reemphasising thor importance

:40:56.:41:00.

and focus of widening access on social be mobility which we are

:41:01.:41:04.

making in-roads on, but could do more and they are emphasising

:41:05.:41:07.

putting students at the heart of the system which is always something

:41:08.:41:10.

that universities need to continue to work on. They are looking at the

:41:11.:41:13.

fact that the sector has changed substantially over recent years,

:41:14.:41:17.

therefore, what will it look like in the future and what regulatory

:41:18.:41:20.

framework do we need? It is positive to see them putting this forward.

:41:21.:41:26.

Are the universities, the former polytechnics, are they fairly

:41:27.:41:29.

unstigmatised places, as places of bad teaching. In my experience, you

:41:30.:41:35.

get pretty bad teaching at Russell Group universities as well? I don't

:41:36.:41:39.

think they are necessarily stigmatised. I think the challenge I

:41:40.:41:44.

have with actually is the things like the phrase dock polytechnics.

:41:45.:41:49.

But when you think, most universities like Egyptian officials

:41:50.:41:52.

like mine have been universities since 1992. When the big switch-over

:41:53.:41:58.

took place. Most of the students coming from school now weren't born

:41:59.:42:02.

them. It doesn't have context now for a lot of the students coming

:42:03.:42:05.

through. Do you charge ?9,000? We do. Does it make sense, in effect,

:42:06.:42:10.

all the universities are really charging the same. Does it really

:42:11.:42:15.

make sense - let's just take the London South Bank University. The

:42:16.:42:21.

Guardian Higher Education Tables, you are 11th out of 119th higher

:42:22.:42:27.

education institutions in the 2016 rankings but you charge the same as

:42:28.:42:34.

Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE. Does that make sense? A couple of

:42:35.:42:38.

points. If you look at the ?9,000 fee. It has been fixed for coming up

:42:39.:42:43.

to five years. Therefore, we are in a position where actually delivering

:42:44.:42:45.

that education, in many courses, actually costs more than ?9,000. It

:42:46.:42:50.

is not that we have brought in the additional nvenlingt we have

:42:51.:42:53.

actually seen a cut in grants from Government of about 80%. Additional

:42:54.:42:59.

income. I understand why you are charging it. I would think if you

:43:00.:43:04.

are a student, do you think - I will get to one of the most famous

:43:05.:43:08.

universities in the world t costs me ?9,000, or do I go to London South

:43:09.:43:12.

Bank University, not quite so famous t still costs me ?9,000 Let's look

:43:13.:43:17.

at specifics. Maybe this is one of the opportunities that we have with

:43:18.:43:20.

the paper about trying to puncture some of those myths. If we look at

:43:21.:43:25.

London South Bank University we take a diverse range of students.

:43:26.:43:31.

Graduate employment rates are comparable with many select

:43:32.:43:34.

institution, top half of the table. According to the Guardian fewer than

:43:35.:43:38.

50% of your graduates are in graduate level employment within six

:43:39.:43:41.

months. It is the second-worst in the country. I think your data is a

:43:42.:43:47.

little old. Currently the amount of students in graduate employment for

:43:48.:43:51.

South Bank is about 75% and we are in the top 20 of graduate starters.

:43:52.:43:57.

When did that? This year's data. This data is... It is out of date.

:43:58.:44:01.

What was the revolution in two years? The main changes we have been

:44:02.:44:05.

making, the same with every university, you focus on your

:44:06.:44:08.

courses, look at how you develop. What we have been doing is focussing

:44:09.:44:14.

much more on placement opportunities, on providing

:44:15.:44:16.

additional guidance, and volunteering activity. Awe dress the

:44:17.:44:20.

issues? It is around not just the teaching and what we deliver but it

:44:21.:44:23.

is around the environment that students get access to. A lot of

:44:24.:44:28.

students were telling us, one of the key aims was around career

:44:29.:44:30.

progression. It is not true for every student. Some students want to

:44:31.:44:35.

do other things. It is trying to meet the diverse requirement of the

:44:36.:44:40.

student body and to celebrate the range and diversity of students we

:44:41.:44:45.

have within the UK. Would you have more diversity if your fees were

:44:46.:44:50.

lower? I'm in the too sure we would have more diversity. More students

:44:51.:44:54.

from poorer backgrounds? There is no evidence for that. The area where we

:44:55.:44:58.

have concerns is on part-time numbers. They have dropped

:44:59.:45:01.

nationally. And that's got to be addressed. Because a lot of the

:45:02.:45:05.

future potential for higher education, is around part-time

:45:06.:45:09.

because a lot of people we need to retrain are already in jobs. If you

:45:10.:45:14.

look at the entry to undergraduate course, those numbers have remained

:45:15.:45:17.

stable. I think there is a need, as we move forward, to try to address

:45:18.:45:25.

two things - one is making sure that the universities have the ability it

:45:26.:45:30.

depeet globally because we do compete globally, whilst at the same

:45:31.:45:34.

time looking at the tow tality of the total the student has to borrow

:45:35.:45:39.

and see if we have the individual right between the student and state

:45:40.:45:43.

and employer. It is not just the student. Many come from socio

:45:44.:45:50.

economic backgrounds, so they are Borowski yoking to cope with

:45:51.:45:53.

subsistence. To live in London. Yes and it is not cheap.

:45:54.:46:02.

Because of these students are expecting some sort of return. When

:46:03.:46:07.

I went there were no fees and you could do what you want and the job

:46:08.:46:13.

would look after itself. Could we get to a situation where some of the

:46:14.:46:21.

underperforming universities might close because students will say, I'm

:46:22.:46:23.

not going there. And they should. I hate we start the debate from the

:46:24.:46:27.

point of view of these of ?9,000 per year. It is wrong, Tony Blair

:46:28.:46:32.

brought it in, and education should be free at undergraduate level. The

:46:33.:46:37.

other issue is the ridiculous 50% target people going to university.

:46:38.:46:41.

I've spoken to people who say, I don't see why I should take a job

:46:42.:46:44.

working as a carer or waitress because I have a degree. And they

:46:45.:46:48.

have a 2.2 in media studies from Bank! With all due respect, those

:46:49.:46:54.

degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on. It looks like

:46:55.:47:01.

there's a market failure going on. Worst performing universities are

:47:02.:47:05.

still charging ?9,000. The signals are not working the way they should

:47:06.:47:10.

be. The problem is, if you are a student, and you make the decision

:47:11.:47:16.

for three years, and if you discover halfway through the teaching is not

:47:17.:47:18.

up to scratch, it's difficult to go back on your choice. There is a high

:47:19.:47:27.

dropout rate as well. There are two points, one is that a lot of people

:47:28.:47:33.

are out of date with what the courses are like. Media is one of

:47:34.:47:43.

the UK, creative industries. It's predicted around 80% of future jobs

:47:44.:47:47.

will require a degree of higher-level education. I think a

:47:48.:47:51.

lot of people are out of tune. We don't need to just look at current

:47:52.:47:56.

universities, but what we can do is look at providers to upscale people

:47:57.:47:59.

and provide all those with opportunities. Thank you for joining

:48:00.:48:02.

us. Now,

:48:03.:48:04.

he was one of Ukip's highest profile ethnic minority candidates and

:48:05.:48:06.

their former Commonwealth spokesman, but now Winston McKenzie has quit

:48:07.:48:08.

the party claiming that he's been Here's Nigel Farage lauding

:48:09.:48:11.

Mr McKenzie earlier this year as proof of the party's appeal

:48:12.:48:15.

amongst ethnic minority voters. Let this picture of me on the stage

:48:16.:48:22.

with these wonderful men and women, from all their different backgrounds

:48:23.:48:27.

and their united belief in being British and being part of this

:48:28.:48:30.

country and in wanting this country to be free and independent,

:48:31.:48:34.

and self-governing and proud. Let this be Ukip's

:48:35.:48:39.

Clause Four moment. But from this moment on, please,

:48:40.:48:45.

do not ever call us a racist party. Good to see you. Handshake, very

:48:46.:49:12.

nice. Let me quote, earlier this week you said you were racially

:49:13.:49:16.

discriminated against by people higher up in Ukip. Without naming

:49:17.:49:19.

names, because the lawyers are watching, what evidence do you have?

:49:20.:49:24.

I was receiving letters, phone calls, and the work I had done for

:49:25.:49:29.

the party with regards to the infrastructure of Ukip in London was

:49:30.:49:36.

profound. I created a training course that was so successful,

:49:37.:49:44.

certain members higher up became jealous and angry of me. The

:49:45.:49:49.

training class that I created, I personally trained 30 people...

:49:50.:49:54.

Let's accept that you have done a great job for the party. I'm asking

:49:55.:49:59.

you for the evidence that you suffered from racial dissemination.

:50:00.:50:04.

When I initially came into the party, the Ukip website was people

:50:05.:50:10.

issuing their comments about me. Racist comments that were so bad

:50:11.:50:14.

that they had to pull down the site. Did you know these were Ukip

:50:15.:50:19.

members? All sorts of websites have all sorts of trolling. The situation

:50:20.:50:25.

got so bad I brought it to the party's Chief Executive. I spoke to

:50:26.:50:29.

Nigel Farage and told him I was having problems. There were people

:50:30.:50:33.

in the party that were racist. When I say racist, Andrew, I'm not

:50:34.:50:37.

referring to Ukip members, these people are the salt of the earth.

:50:38.:50:41.

I'm not referring to people directly involved with Nigel and the

:50:42.:50:46.

leadership itself, I'm referring to four or five people within the party

:50:47.:50:52.

who are blatantly racist. So is your complaint that Ukip is not

:50:53.:50:57.

institutionally racist, but it has some members that are racist? Some

:50:58.:51:01.

members in it are racist. As a man of my integrity, I'm a black man

:51:02.:51:07.

trying to make better in society, and I will not stand for it in this

:51:08.:51:12.

day and age. What would you say to some people who say it is just sour

:51:13.:51:16.

grapes on your part after you were dropped from the front bench earlier

:51:17.:51:20.

this year, did not become the London mayor candidate and did not become

:51:21.:51:24.

one of the London assembly candidates, and maybe you have

:51:25.:51:27.

concluded that your career in Ukip is going nowhere? They would love

:51:28.:51:32.

for that to be the case. Every politician within Ukip or any

:51:33.:51:36.

political party would love to be included in the list. To be the

:51:37.:51:41.

mayor candidate, whatever. But the simple fact is that I pride myself

:51:42.:51:48.

as a politician in democracy. Ukip prides itself in democracy. The

:51:49.:51:53.

selection process for the mayoral candidates and the London assembly,

:51:54.:51:57.

the Ukip membership was not included. It is this lackadaisical

:51:58.:52:04.

form of organisation that are ignored me at the end of the day. Is

:52:05.:52:09.

it true that you've been a member of every political party? I never

:52:10.:52:16.

joined Labour. Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, Veritas, with

:52:17.:52:24.

Kilroy. Unity was my party. And. You only have to look at the greats, and

:52:25.:52:28.

I'm great. Looked at Churchill matter how many times did he move

:52:29.:52:34.

his position? He won elections. I'm a new boy. I only want a shadow box

:52:35.:52:44.

with you today, not spa. Didn't you audition for the X factor? That's

:52:45.:52:49.

what's wrong with politics today, politicians need to put themselves

:52:50.:52:53.

about and get involved in ordinary peoples' lives. I get around. I know

:52:54.:52:59.

what's going on. They didn't choose you, but looking at the Ukip

:53:00.:53:04.

candidates for the London assembly, they chose them a couple of weeks

:53:05.:53:08.

ago and a third of them are from ethnic minorities. Thanks to Winston

:53:09.:53:18.

McKenzie. But not you. So is racism... Would a racist party

:53:19.:53:22.

choose a third of its membership from ethic minorities? Speak to any

:53:23.:53:28.

member or activist, and ask them who is responsible for the influx of

:53:29.:53:32.

black and ethnic minorities into Ukip, and they will say it was

:53:33.:53:37.

Winston. You can never be a prophet in your own land! I'm a profit where

:53:38.:53:42.

ever I go. I didn't need them to choose me because the work I did

:53:43.:53:49.

will go on as a legacy. I wonder if Ukip took the view that as a

:53:50.:53:53.

politician you could be a bit of a liability. After all, you once

:53:54.:53:59.

described Croydon as a dump. It's a point of view, but probably not a

:54:00.:54:04.

point of view you should have, if, as you were, the local election

:54:05.:54:08.

candidate. Andrew, you have to speak the truth and tell it as you see it.

:54:09.:54:13.

That's why you lost! The place is a dump. The whole of London is

:54:14.:54:19.

becoming a dump. Go outside portcullis house and see the chewing

:54:20.:54:22.

gum on the floor. I'm sorry I didn't include the rest of London. That's

:54:23.:54:27.

obviously why they didn't choose you for the London assembly. When you

:54:28.:54:33.

are growing up, did you see black bags and rubbish dumped everywhere?

:54:34.:54:37.

Of course I did, I grew up in Paisley! I never saw that when I

:54:38.:54:42.

came to this country when I was five years old, and the streets were

:54:43.:54:46.

clean. It's a dump. It's about time we did something about it. Sounds

:54:47.:54:50.

like the people weren't ready for your message. Most people think that

:54:51.:54:59.

London is kind of... Having a render sums beyond belief. When I first

:55:00.:55:05.

came to London after university it was a declining British city. It's

:55:06.:55:10.

now one of the... If not the... Global cities of the world. It's a

:55:11.:55:15.

shame Boris Johnson got voted out with regard to the water cannons. If

:55:16.:55:19.

I was Mayor of London tomorrow I would have the streets washed with

:55:20.:55:23.

water cannons. The whole town, Andrew, needs an enema. There is no

:55:24.:55:31.

doubt about it. You have been complaining about racism in Ukip. I

:55:32.:55:35.

understand you are not saying the party is institutionally racist. And

:55:36.:55:42.

it's not aimed at the leader. I understand. You've had a few what I

:55:43.:55:45.

might call politically incorrect positions. You said a gay couple

:55:46.:55:51.

adopting a child was abuse. I'm entitled to my personal Christian

:55:52.:55:55.

opinions. It's not very diverse or inclusive. If you claim to purport

:55:56.:56:01.

to represent the people, a certain amount of people in various

:56:02.:56:03.

different areas that need to be heard and you carry their voice. You

:56:04.:56:08.

said you were dismayed that former boxing promoter Frank Maloney, now

:56:09.:56:12.

Kellie Maloney, had a six change. I knew the guy well. I wish him all

:56:13.:56:21.

the best as a woman. You are not dismayed any more? I'm not dismayed.

:56:22.:56:32.

I'm sad at the loss of Frank Maloney. He was a great man. Has

:56:33.:56:37.

Winston McKenzie been badly done by? It seems to be a bruised ego. The

:56:38.:56:42.

only person with a justifiable bruised ego over the candidate for

:56:43.:56:56.

Ukip for London mayor is Susan. She had a brief couple of days as party

:56:57.:56:59.

leader, had name recognition, and would have been ideal candidate to

:57:00.:57:01.

become fifth in the elections. Which is what will happen. I would love to

:57:02.:57:07.

have seen a London mayoral candidate with the slogan, London is a dump.

:57:08.:57:13.

It would have been great. If we are to talk the truth, speak the truth,

:57:14.:57:19.

you go around London, and many of us don't walk with our heads down, but

:57:20.:57:24.

London specifically is becoming the most atrocious place with regards to

:57:25.:57:29.

hygiene. But it's also becoming a place that is welcoming to people of

:57:30.:57:33.

many different backgrounds and people of different sexual

:57:34.:57:37.

orientation. It's a liberal city with a small letter L. I'm

:57:38.:57:44.

incredibly offended by somebody who uses God as a get out clause for

:57:45.:57:48.

homophobia. What party will you join now? The Greens! My intention is to

:57:49.:57:57.

support Ukip policies and stand as an independent mayoral candidate. If

:57:58.:58:00.

any sponsors out there want to back me, come on board, join the Winston

:58:01.:58:14.

McKenzie. If you stop talking, I will give you a mug.

:58:15.:58:17.

Well, we asked Ukip for an interview to respond to Winston's claims

:58:18.:58:20.

However, the party did send us a statement.

:58:21.:58:23.

"We are sorry to say goodbye to Winston after six eventful years,

:58:24.:58:27.

and saddened by the manner of his leaving.

:58:28.:58:29.

We have enjoyed working with him, and he has kept us busy defending

:58:30.:58:32.

his right to free speech, his imaginative schemes and his highly

:58:33.:58:35.

We will miss him, and wish him well."

:58:36.:58:37.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:38.:58:41.

The question was whose giant effigy was burnt last night

:58:42.:58:43.

at the infamous annual bonfire celebrations in the usually peaceful

:58:44.:58:45.

I think Nigel Farage. I think it was Cameron.

:58:46.:58:48.

A giant effigy of David Cameron and a dead pig's head was burnt

:58:49.:58:51.

last night in Lewes at their bonfire celebrations.

:58:52.:58:53.

The 15 foot puppet of the Prime Minister was wearing nothing

:58:54.:58:56.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:57.:59:02.

MUSIC: Lust For Life by Iggy Pop

:59:03.:59:05.

There is a place where music comes to life,

:59:06.:59:07.

With one foot in the past and one in the future.

:59:08.:59:19.

..could be the best record you've ever heard.

:59:20.:59:23.

Andrew Neil is joined by journalist and broadcaster Julia Hartley-Brewer and Kiran Stacey of the Financial Times to discuss the security situation in Sharm el-Sheikh and Labour's ongoing internal battles. They also speak to George Galloway about his plans for a vintage clothing store.


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