Browse content similar to 06/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Confusion in Sharm El-Sheikh as stranded British tourists are | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
told to go back to their hotels and more flights are cancelled. | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
Three police officers are hospitalised | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Can this sort of direct action ever be justified? | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
He was one of UKIP's highest-profile ethnic minority candidates - | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
now he says he's the victim of racial discrimination in the party. | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
We'll be talking to Winston Mackenzie. | :01:08. | :01:23. | |
And the unmistakable figure of George Galloway emerges from the | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
I'll be asking the former MP and London mayoral hopeful | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
about his plans to enter the vintage clothing market. | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today, | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
two doyens of political style - there's some substance to them too, | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
Kiran Stacey of the Financial Times and Julia Hartley Brewer. | :01:39. | :01:49. | |
First this afternoon - flights were supposed to be starting to bring | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
British holiday-makers back from the Egyptian resort of Sharm El Sheikh | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
today, but there's considerable confusion about the number of planes | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
that will be able to operate, and passengers are being told that | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
they will have to fly without their luggage, which will be | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
In a moment we'll catch up with our correspondent in Sharm. | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
But first let's talk to our political correspondent, | :02:09. | :02:10. | |
It is getting a bit messy now. Do we have a clear idea of the picture? | :02:11. | :02:20. | |
Are the flights happening? Some flights are but yes a messy picture | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
in Government as well as Sharm El-Sheikh. I'm just back from | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Downing Street's briefing. It looks like one charter airline, monarch | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
are sending flights out and two easyJet flights have left for | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
London. They were already at Sharm El-Sheikh airport. However it looks | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
as though, what the Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin was | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
talking about, that everyone who was meant to be home by Friday night | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
will be, there will be in excess of 20 flights, looks unlikely. Downing | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
Street is saying the situation is complex and fluid. Off the record, | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
as I understand t the problem is this - in effect they think an | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
agreement has been made with Egyptian officials to get the | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
flights in and people out but it is not clear whether the Egyptian | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
officials are withdrawing cooperation and making it as | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
difficult as possible or whether people on the ground at the airport | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
are simply saying, they are not used to having this extra capacity and | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
can't deal with it but the upshot now is that there can be no | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
guarantee that everyone who should have been back from Sharm El-Sheikh | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
by this evening, will be. The British Government has firmly fixed | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
it colours to the mast that this was a terrorist attack. The Egyptians | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
and the Russians, for their own reasons will be hoping it is not. | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
And indeed may not be that keen to cooperate to discover if it was. The | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
British Government could find itself at some stage in a rather | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
embarrassing stand-off with the Egyptians and the Russians as to | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
what actually caused this. That's right. It is not clear whether that | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
stand-off, which I think has already already begun given the comments we | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
have had from Moscow and some Egyptian officials, whether that is | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
delaying the evacuation of British tourists from Sharm El-Sheikh. I | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
asked the number Ten spokesman about 20 minutes ago whether there was any | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
new information relevant to the investigation of the crash that has | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
been shared with President Abdel Fatah al-Sisi who is at the MoD this | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
morning or the Russian allies. He said the situation hasn't changed. | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
He said based on intelligence and other factors, it is most like that | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
a bomb caused the jet to go down but they would not say whether there was | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
any information to reinforce that. He said simply there was a dialogue | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
and what they were sharing was an explanation for Britain's actions. I | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
understand the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, he has been using | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
this terrorist attack, as the British Government believes it is, | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
to talk about the broader threat from Islamic state? Yes, he has | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
talked about the broader threat in the region. Certainly there is some | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
charter about whether there was the Islamic State off-shoot in sign eye | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
who was responsible. But -- in Sinai. But he renewed his call for | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
an extension of British air strikes in Iraq to Syria. | :05:15. | :05:15. | |
I'm briefing MPs on the state of the campaign against Isil, and I'm | :05:16. | :05:28. | |
asking MPs particularly to reflect on the fact that the streets of | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
Britain, at the moment, are being kept safe by American, Australian | :05:32. | :05:33. | |
and French aircraft, striking at the heart of Isil | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
in north-east Syria, from where Isil is organised and directed. | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
Britain is playing its role in the campaign against Iraq | :05:39. | :05:47. | |
but it makes no sense for British aircraft to have to turn back | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
at an artificial border that Isis itself does not respect. | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
We put Michael Fallon's comments to Downing Street this morning. They | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
are saying the Prime Minister's view on Syrian air strikes hasn't | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
changed. Certainly the case has to be made but there needs to be a | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
consensus in the House of Commons. And that consensus is going to be | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
far more important, when it comes to air strikes, than anything that | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
mayville happened over the skies of Egypt. Thank you for that and | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
bringing us up-to-date. We can talk now to our Correspondent | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
Sally Nabil in Sharm El-Sheikh. Is the British evacuation now | :06:20. | :06:31. | |
getting under way? Yes, what we understand so far is that two | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
flights have left Sharm El-Sheikh already going back to the UK. But | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
there has been a lot of confusion over the past hour. We don't nose | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
the schedule for the rest of the flights today but the British | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
Ambassador has spoken to journalists a short while ago and said that the | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
Egyptian authorities haven't blocked or cancelled any flights, it was | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
just a matter of rescheduling. What we know is that the UK wanted to | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
send many flights at one go and the Sharm El-Sheikh airport is not a big | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
one, so logisticically speaking, it cannot take all of the flights at | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
one time. So they are rescheduling the flights and that might take a | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
much longer time to repatriot the British holiday-makers back to the | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
UK and people are growing really frustrated because they wanted to | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
get back home as soon as possible. So, as it looks to you at the | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
moment, Sally, the British people stranded there, they could be there | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
over the weekend and perhaps even into the early part of next week? | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
Yes, we have no time frame actually for how long this process is going | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
to take and many tourists I have spoken to this morning have been | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
complaining a lot about lack of information, lack of communication. | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
One of them told me that he has no money to extend his booking at the | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
hotel and he does not know what he is going to do. They were hoping to | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
get back home today but it seems that the process will be a bit | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
lengthy because what we understand is that the British and the Egyptian | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
authorities are co-ordinating to bring the holiday-makers back home | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
but things are much more complicated from a logistics point of view. Some | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
of the tourists now are back to their hotels until further notice. | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
Let me just ask you one final question, Sally. The British, those | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
that can get out, are being allowed out, but only with hand luggage. | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
Certainly with very restricted luggage. Is that an independencation | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
that the British still don't trust the baggage security at Sharm el | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
Sheikh? In a way, yes. Security measures have been tightened after a | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
British aviation expert visited the airport two days ago. We have seen | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
long queues of people waiting for check-in because the security checks | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
are taking a much longer time. Three or four days ago I was here and | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
things were much quieter, even on the day of the crash. The scene was | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
totally different from today. Now you can see long queues of people | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
inside the terminals waiting for their hand luggage to be checked. | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
The picture has changed after Britain decided to stop its flights | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
to Sharm el Sheikh. I asked the people how they saw the new security | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
measures. Some were growing impatient with T others told me that | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
it'll make them feel safer. -- with it. | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
We can see the queues behind you. Thank you for joining us live from | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
Sharm El-Sheikh. Let me come back to the gee yes | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
politics of this. If it -- the geopolitics. If it turns out to be a | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
terrorist attack. This will have been the most serious Islamist | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
attack on what you would call Western assets, Western people since | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
9/11. The implications of this are huge? If Russia accepts T we have no | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
idea if it was a deliberate attack on a Russian flight or it could have | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
been on an easyJet or monarch flight back to Britain. We don't know. We | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
don't know for sure. Clearly there are massive implications. There are | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
also implications for domestic travel and politics as well. The | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
theatre of security that we do see at our airports which we have had | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
since 9/11 and since sevenself here, particularly, the -- and since 7/7. | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
It meaningless. Certainly in developing countries where we have | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
seen people buying their pay past security. Perhaps we have to accept | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
that this is possibility that could still happen to any one at any time. | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
But the biggest threat, in terms of geopolitics and in terms of Russia, | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
if Russia does accept this has happened, is it good for Putin, in | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
terms of keeping tension out of what is going home in Russia, which is an | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
economic basket case, and actually focuses more attention on what they | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
want to do on Syria. Or will it mean that the Russian people will say - | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
look, we don't want to get involved. This is not for us, we don't want | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
Russians dying at the expense of you helping Assad. | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
If Islamic State has developed a capability to penetrate the security | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
arrangements of airports like Sharm El-Sheikh, there are plenty of | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
airports like that, not just around the world but in that region. That | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
is a new dimension that Islamic State has, which has huge potential | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
in how we handle it. I think what is worrying is, is we know that | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula has been trying this for years this. | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
Won't trigger a bomb that will trigger the metical detector. They | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
have tried it four or five times. Has it now managed to develop the | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
technology to almost leap frog, aldividia, with whom of course they | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
have fallen out huge lane do this sophisticated attack. I think at the | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
moment the Brits except it is not case and there is enormously lapse | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
security on the ground and something which triggered a warning didn't. | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
The Egyptian have said that we the British, sent our experts there ten | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
months ago and it seemed to be OK. They have the scansers but pay ?10 | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
to get through. . Or if you go through and it beeps and the | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
security guard says - I'm too stressed on you. I think that's more | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
a reasonable explanation than developing new technology. Very | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
worrying. It is not the most clever technology they will have used. It | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
is not beyond the wit of your average university student. Or | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
someone managed to plant it into the baggage hold after it was full. This | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
story began with the plane coming down last Saturday. It has divom | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
nated the news this week. It'll continue, I suggest -- it has | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
dominated the news. It'll continue to dominate and there | :12:35. | :12:35. | |
will be further developments. whose giant effigy was burnt last | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
night at the infamous annual bonfire celebrations in the usually | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
peaceful Sussex town of Lewes? At the end of the show, | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
Julia and Kieran will give us Now, Labour party members and | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
supporters may have got the leader they wanted, | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
but Jeremy Corbyn was supported by just a handful of Labour MPs | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
in September's leadership election. Many turned down front bench | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
and shadow cabinet jobs, but now centrist Labour MPs - | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
amongst them some of Mr Corbyn's biggest detractors - have found | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
a new platform within the party. The Parliamentary Labour Party's | :13:10. | :13:26. | |
departmental back bench committees have been dubbed the "Shadow Shadow | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
Cabinet". And before his election as Labour | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
leader, Jeremy Corbyn declared himself | :13:35. | :13:35. | |
a big fan, saying there were, " Well, as elections for | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
the committees concluded last night, None of the 17 new chairmen had | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
backed his leadership campaign - a result which prompted one MP to | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
describe the committee chairmen They include the pro-Trident | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
John Woodock, who will chair This summer he warned if Mr Corbyn | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
was elected as Labour Leader, "We can wave goodbye to any hope of | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
electability." Tristram Hunt, | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
who has said he has "substantial political differences" with Mr | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
Corbyn, will chair the Communities And former Shadow Chancellor, | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
Chris Leslie - he's attacked the "starry-eyed, | :14:08. | :14:16. | |
hard left" economics of Mr Corbyn - To add to Mr Corbyn's potential | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
headaches, last night Jim McMahon was chosen to | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
be Labour's candidate in the The Oldham Council leader won 232 | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
votes compared to 17 won by ex-MP and close Corbyn ally | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
Chris Williamson. And for a full list | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
of the declared candidates in the Oldham West and Royton | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
by-election, visit the BBC website. And joining me now is Mike Gapes, | :14:44. | :14:55. | |
who has been elected as chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party's | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
Foreign Affairs Committee, and Ronnie Campbell, a Labour MP | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
and supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. Welcome to you both. Mike Gapes, is | :15:03. | :15:16. | |
it just a happy coincidence that none of the shadow Shadow Cabinet | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
winners are Jeremy Corbyn supporters? I think we reflect the | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
views of the Parliamentary party. All of us who have been chosen to | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
chair these backbench committees stood. There was the election, in my | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
case, several contested elections, and people who have not nominated | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
Jeremy Corbyn were widely supported by our colleagues. Does that not | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
illustrate a systemic problem in the Labour Party, that the Parliamentary | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
Labour Party, and the Labour Party in the country have become two very | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
different animals. We will see how it works. The party in a country | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
voted for Mr Corbyn, and the Parliamentary party votes for people | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
like you. The Parliamentary party has a very important role over party | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
policy over the next few years. No leader can be successful if they | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
don't take their Parliamentary colleagues with them. Ronnie | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
Campbell, what do you make of it? Does it have the smell of a clue | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
about it? No, it doesn't, but these are talking shops, these committees. | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
They do not make policies. The Labour Party members and the | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
affiliates make policy. That's not what Jeremy Corbyn said before the | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
elections, he said they were very important and useful in developing | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
policy. Yes, within Parliament itself, they debate whatever the | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
issue is coming up, foreign affairs next week, of course they will be | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
debated, but they do not make policy. Mike Gapes, you tweeted, you | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
are quite a voracious tweeter, there is now no collective Shadow Cabinet | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
responsibility in our party, no clarity of economic policy, no | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
credible leadership. Will there be collective shadow Shadow Cabinet | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
responsibility? There is no shadow Shadow Cabinet. It's a nice | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
headline, but the reality is the Parliamentary party will want to | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
work collectively and cohesively. The backbench committees will play a | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
big role in the input to development of policy. For example, we will | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
choose to be pulled to be on a National policy Forum, to be part of | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
that process. Mr Campbell says you will not be able to decide policy. | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
Policy will be decided by the party overall, but the members of | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
Parliament are an essential part of the process and no party can win an | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
election without the support of leadership and membership and the | :17:50. | :17:50. | |
Parliamentary party working together. Do you think there's the | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
danger a growing division between the attitudes of the Parliamentary | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
party and the policies and demands and attitudes of the Labour Party in | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
the country? The Labour members of Parliament have to remember they are | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
selected by their local Labour Party and voted on by their constituents. | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
They are not the Labour Party, which is made up of members and | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
affiliates, and they are the ones who decide policy. They think they | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
will take over the Parliamentary Labour Party and run the party, they | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
are not running the party and never will. They are in Parliament. I'm | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
saying the Labour Party is a Parliamentary party which wins or | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
loses elections. Without members of Parliament, including those of us | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
who have been clearly elected by our colleagues campaigning and working | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
collectively, if we have an attempt to try to pick off MPs or drive MPs | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
into positions where we no longer are able to speak out for what we | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
believe, then that will be to the detriment of the Labour Party and we | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
will lose elections. We have got to get it right. We have to have a | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
leadership that listens and works with the Parliamentary Labour Party. | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
You are talking about deselection again. They are the only ones | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
mentioning it, as far as I am concerned, and the press. Any | :19:14. | :19:24. | |
policy, where ever, to deselect members of Parliament, that is up to | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
the Labour Party. The members. They will select and deselect. Ken | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
Livingstone said on Sunday, the former Mayor of London, if an MP was | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
seen not to represent the views of the constituency party, then the | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
constituency party would be within its rights to deselect and get | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
somebody who more accurately reflects what they want to believe. | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
As I said, the local Labour Party selects the candidate, and they can | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
deselect them. Not many candidates in my time, and I've been in | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
Parliament a long time, have been deselected. We have boundary changes | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
coming up so there might be a lot of need for reselection. That's another | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
matter. You might have two MPs fighting for one constituency. They | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
will have to put their names in the Hat and hope they can fight and win | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
the seat. That's not deselection. Mike Gapes, you said in the 1980s | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
you were never taken seriously on defence and there's a real danger | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
you could get into a similar situation. Yes, I was a candidate in | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
1983, the same time Jeremy was a candidate in Islington North, and I | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
was in Ilford North. In Ilford North we had huge rallies, big | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
demonstrations and enthusiasm among activists but a terrible election | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
result. We have to recognise as a Labour Party, that just entered | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
using activists is not necessarily going to win the election. We have | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
to cut through to people in England, in particular, who didn't vote for | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
us last time. We have to win 106 more seats to have a majority and we | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
have to recognise we have a big challenge. Is there a danger that | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
the kind of people who have joined into the Labour Party to help elect | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, they have invigorated your party, and you have a lot more | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
members, but perhaps they are not representative of the wider | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
electorate? I don't know, I've had a big increase of nearly 600, but I | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
haven't met many of them. They might just be ordinary union members. I | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
don't know who they are. As far as I'm concerned, there is no takeover | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
of the Labour Party. It has gone to the left, of course, by collecting | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. It's a different idea and tactic to the past, but we have | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
just lost two elections. We can't run alongside the Tories and have | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
better policies than them, we have been beaten twice. Should you get to | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
meet the new members? I have e-mailed all of them. Inviting them | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
into the party, now they have paid ?3, but I'm not getting many | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
responses. Have you met union members, Mike Gapes? I've had a | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
similar experience. I've e-mailed twice new members, my constituency | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
party has doubled. I've e-mailed twice to say to come out knocking on | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
doors with the Greater London Authority candidate, and both | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
occasions I've had a handful of new members come out, but no response | :22:31. | :22:39. | |
from the ?3 payers. Is it true, using the media shorthand of the | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
shadow Shadow Cabinet, that you have the toe of the shadow Shadow | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
Cabinet, that you have veto? I don't think the right of veto applies. I | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
will be working with Hilary Benn, Shadow Foreign Secretary, and the | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
pro-European shadow minister, to campaign and work for Labour | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
policies. Can you speak from the dispatch box? I would have thought | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
it was unlikely. Technically you have the right to speak. Technically | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
and theoretically. I would love to, but I don't think I will be asked. | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
Would you like to see Mike Gapes is big from the dispatch box at shadow | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
shadow foreign affairs member? I might have a bash myself! What | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
subject would you talk about? I would have a bash at the economy. | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
Looking at one other subject. Earlier this week Jeremy Corbyn | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
suggested British air strikes on ice is it in Iraq should be | :23:39. | :23:47. | |
reconsidered. -- on Isis. The government wants to extend air | :23:48. | :23:49. | |
strikes into Syrian territory because they say that is where the | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
supply lines and bases are. Mr Corbyn is now questioning whether we | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
should be in Iraq. I think he's wrong. I think Daesh, Isil, are a | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
fundamental threat to Iraq, other Arab countries and ourselves. The | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
reality is that British forces and other coalition forces are in Iraq, | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
at the invitation of the Iraqi government. It is in accordance with | :24:15. | :24:16. | |
international law and I think we should be doing more there. I know | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
you need to see the details and what the government is actually planning, | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
but on general principle you think Britain should take the fight into | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
Syria? I don't think it's logical to be hitting targets in Iraq and not | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
being able to carry on a few miles over the desert to hit targets in | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
their headquarters in Syria. It seems illogical. Mr Campbell, I | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
assume you don't want to extend bombing into Syria. I may be wrong, | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
you tell me, but do you agree with Mr Corbyn that we should be | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
reconsidering bombing in Iraq, which we have been asked to do by the | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
Iraqi government. The Russians have started bombing and they haven't got | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
an answer. And they have just lost a plane. Do you think the British | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
government is right, there is a clear connection? I think there is, | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
that it was a bomb. It will be there people who have done it. If we start | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
bombing, the consequences for us are there. Do you think we should stop | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
bombing in Iraq as well? Yes. I don't think bombing makes any | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
difference at all. You are killing a lot of innocent people to maybe get | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
half a dozen Isis people. It's an interesting proposition, terrible if | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
true, but do we have evidence that the British Tornado bombing has | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
killed innocent people? We had before. We don't know, because they | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
haven't been bombing. But the bombing in Iraq. We haven't been | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
doing that much. Not a great deal. Just to speak to my two guests. The | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
Labour Party story has a long way to go. It's clear listening to this, a | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
lot of matters to be reconciled, and clearly tensions between the | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
parliamentary party and the membership. They are now completely | :26:04. | :26:10. | |
separate entities. Two months into Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and they | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
are talking to themselves. Not to be electorate at large. A lot of these | :26:14. | :26:21. | |
journalists have never even heard of these committees inside the Labour | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
Party. I think it's extraordinary. 1117 parliamentary party chairs | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
nominated Liz Kendall. Perhaps as much as the whole membership! -- 11 | :26:33. | :26:41. | |
out of 17 Parliamentary party chairs. What is interesting about | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
what these gentlemen are saying is that new members are not showing up. | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
I've heard it from activist friends in the Labour Party, they say the | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
new guys flooding in, they lumbered us with Jeremy Corbyn, and I'm | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
talking about centrist people here, they feel lumbered by Jeremy Corbyn, | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
but they are not turning up on the doorstep. There is talk of | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
deselection, but they are not there in numbers to engage with the Labour | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
Party. Long-standing Labour Party members were not given the chance to | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
vote for socialism, and not surprisingly, they voted for | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
socialism. If those members want to take over the party they have to | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
ring gauge. You mean me here today and gone tomorrow type? | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
I'm sure if Mr Campbell and Mike Gapes invite these members round for | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
a cup of tea they will be happy to join them and tell us what their | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
attitudes are and how important they will be for the party. I thank you | :27:44. | :27:44. | |
both for joining us. Now, remember, remember the 5th of | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
November - and if you were out in central London last night, you might | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
have had a little help courtesy of protesters wearing Guido Fawkes | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
masks. The Million Mask March, associated with a group called | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
Anonymous calls itself the "Largest They had events and other UK and US | :27:57. | :28:11. | |
cities. Police in London were said to be braced for a turnout of 18000 | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
and warned of an element intent on criminality. There were five arrests | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
last night and three police officers were hospitalised. Didn't look like | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
18,000 on the streets. We kept an eye on what was going on. | :28:25. | :28:37. | |
The whole thing was organised on social media. Facebook said 18,000 | :28:38. | :29:00. | |
people would come. We walked down Whitehall to Sarah 's of our | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
streets, not revolution. -- shouts of. I'm not sure where we will end | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
up, and I'm not sure this lot know either. A lot of us are saying that | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
enough is enough. If you know the realities of what's going on then | :29:15. | :29:22. | |
you would be joining in. Free hugs. It did get violent last year, didn't | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
it? I'm a peaceful person, and that's how I will remain. | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
Well, it has been going for less than an hour but already | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
Over the other side there is a line of police on police horses | :29:35. | :30:02. | |
The crowd has been pushing backwards and forwards | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
A lot of protesters running around and police running around. | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
Protesters shouting "kettle, kettle" they are concerned they are | :30:13. | :30:14. | |
Ie stuck in this area here and not being able to run off, | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
We have seen several thousand protesters but we are not | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
That seems to be the nature of this whole march. | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
We have found them and they are now on Pall Mall. | :30:29. | :30:30. | |
And certainly a big column of people walking up this way. | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
Is this going to make a difference, this march tonight? | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
I don't think it will, but I want us to hear the voices. | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
We don't want to fight but we are going to have to fight soon. | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
It is raining, you don't mind the rain? | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
Well, there was a flurry of activity, | :30:48. | :31:03. | |
suddenly the police arrived and quite literally blocked the road. | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
There have been some shouts that the kettle is on | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
but I imagine that's not the kettle being on in a good way. | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
The protesters were told they have to stop protesting after 9.00pm. | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
Quite what happens next I'm not sure. | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
In the end it didn't take long to clear them. Elsewhere there were | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
small pockets of violence and three police officers were injured, | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
needing hospital treatment. At least 50 arrests were made, mainly for | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
public order offences. And some of the protesters were disappointed | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
with how it turned out. It is about making a statement and saying - we | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
are not happy. We are not happy with what is going on. Do you think | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
tonight will have made any difference? Unfortunately it wasn't, | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
no. Of course it won't. It is not really a march. It is just people | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
standinger around in a corner. They are scattered around. They didn't | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
get together. If they did get together, it would have been a | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
revolution. I think the weather has put everyone off, to be honest. A | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
very British approach to the revolution, the weather. | :32:17. | :32:18. | |
And we're joined now by Adam Clifford of the Class War party, who | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
What was last night's march against? Against a lot of things, austerity. | :32:22. | :32:31. | |
The state that London is N the desperation of the people. There is | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
a lot of homeless at the moment. -- London is in. That's off the scale | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
at the moment. I myself am actually homeless at the moment. So I feel | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
very - yeah, I salute the guys who went out last night but it was | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
boring. It was such a police display, a military march. You know, | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
nothing could really happen. Are you worried that the whole - this whole | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
movement is running out of steam? There weren't that many people there | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
last night? ? It is just the sort of crunchdown, really. It is just the | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
police. There was as many police as there was protesters last night and | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
you know, in Trafalgar Square, all these sections were being read out, | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
that you couldn't cover up. It was police state. Orwellian, like 1984. | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
They couldn't find any of the organisers to deal with in advance | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
It is Anonymous, so there are no... That is That's what the thing is. | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
Have you undermined yourselves by being a bit unfocussed. There were | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
so many different protesters and issue last night. I was looking at | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
the general concept of being against capitalism. You mentioned | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
homelessness. Animal rights was one. What is happening to South Korean | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
dogs, paedophiles. Is there not a danger that you are firing on too | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
many fronts? No, I think all this stuff crosses over. I think it is a | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
march of the underdogs, really. It is the people, the other side of the | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
fence, that are really feeling it. You know, London is in this kind of | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
state at the moment. It has become Victorian again. You have the super | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
rich and the super poor. So, I mean, what are we meant to do? You say it | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
is the march of the underdogs. A number of people were tweeting who | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
watched T members of the public. One said - nice to see anti-capitalists | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
queueing patiently at McDonald's while on iPhones. Well, we are | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
underdogings, actually. We could not do anything last night with the | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
police in full-scale displaying all their techniques, doing all their | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
dances up and down and all that stuff with all their armour and guns | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
and tasers and all that business, really. Explain, what is the purpose | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
of the mask? Well, I mean, the bottom line is - say you had a job, | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
you were trying to get by and you don't believe this is a democracy or | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
something is not fair, you could go out on the street and go to a | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
protest and basically be profiled. There is this whole thing of joint | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
enterprise now, you could be picked up a few days after the event just | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
for going. Maybe you didn't do anything, anything violent and you | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
are named, shaped and framed and all the rest of it and probably lose the | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
basic prif larges you have. We have cover -- privileges. We have covered | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
these on years gone by, pretty huge ones. This one was smaller. For Guy | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
Fawkes night, I suggest it is a damp squib. It was boring. I went home | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
early. I don't think these protests that really work in the past will | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
work again in the future. I think there will have to be new protests. | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
That's the way it will have to go. Does the violence help by drawing | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
attention, or does it make it easier for your protests to be dismissed? I | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
mean throwing fireworks at the police horse, for example. You know | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
how much the British love animals? I love animals, too, but you have to | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
take a different approach with this whole situation, with animals and | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
what they are trained to do, charge at crowds. They weren't charging at | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
crowds. A little bit last night. They were simply around Buckingham | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
Palace and some people threw fire crackers at them. Was that a wise | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
thing to do? I don't about wise. I have seen police brutality. I have | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
seen police knock girls around and all sorts of things, I have no faith | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
in the police. Why are we taking it out on the horse? Why are we going | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
on about the horse? Because fireworks were thrown and smoke | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
grenades. The question I am asking you, is whether this does your case, | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
does it draw attention and you get coverage or people look at what you | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
are protesting for or does it make it easier for people to dismiss you. | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
That was my question. I don't think people that were on this march, | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
fighting for this particular cause, really care about being dismissed. | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Because, you know - I mean this is a bit of a circus, it is a spectacle. | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
The media is a whole circus. We know what the media can do to us. It is | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
the bottom line. We just carry on, carry on fighting for what we | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
believe in. Is this getk anywhere? It doesn't look at it. That is your | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
point of view. What are you doing? I was interested you said the protests | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
might not have been working recently. That's what you said. | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
Would you say it is getting anywhere? Is it achieving what you | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
wanted? I don't think the one last night did but some other protests | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
have worked, raising awareness and could lead to a bigger thing that | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
could change things for a lot of people, sure. I remember thinking | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
this in 2010-11 when student protests were happening around | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
tuition fees. You felt - is this a moment, is this when the | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
Conservative Party in particular and obviously the Lib Dems will feel the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
effect of the public anger brewing. It didn't happen because most people | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
don't feel T Most people, who is most people? The people who vote n | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
May, we had an election. That's how we find out. You are talking about | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
believe who belief in the establishment. Works really for you, | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
sweet heart. Thank you for patronising me. I would like to ask | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
a question. You talked about it big boring, I don't want to put words | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
into your mouth. My guess is you would have liked lots of violence, | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
attacking police officers and damaging public and private property | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
s that what you would have preferred S that your requesting anything"? | :38:33. | :38:42. | |
How did women get the vote? Have you seen the Suffragetteses film? It was | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
a crap film. For the huge numbers of young people, particularly young | :38:48. | :38:49. | |
people from poorer families who don't vote. What do you know about | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
poor families? Can I finish. You don't know. Well I'm just a | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
sweetheart or a word you called me before we came on air, rather more | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
rudely that we can't say Whatever. All right. We need young people to | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
get the vote, rather than smashing up London. I have a feeling this is | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
not going to go any further Well thank you. Hold on, let me read this | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
bit and then you can depart. Now - if you're spending ?27,000 | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
on something you would expect Today | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
the Government are outlining reforms to the higher education sector | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
in a Green Paper that they hope will They'll let universities increase | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
their fees beyond the current ?9,000 a year | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
limit but only if they improve Earlier Jo Johnson, | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
the Universities Minister, was asked if this meant universities | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
that were under-performing would be There's a lot of excellence | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
in our higher education system. We have four out of the world's | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
top ten best universities. 38 out of | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
the world's top 100 universities. So there's a lot of excellence | :39:57. | :39:58. | |
in our system. But there is also the patchiness | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
and the bit of variability in the quality of teaching within | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
and in between universities. That's what we want to | :40:08. | :40:09. | |
constructively shine a light on, so we can all work together to lift | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
overall teaching standards, so students get | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
the best quality experience Taxpayers will benefit underwriting | :40:15. | :40:16. | |
the system, and employers will benefit because they will get | :40:17. | :40:35. | |
a better skilled workforce coming We're joined now by Dave Phoenix | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
of the "million plus" He's also Vice Chancellor of | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
the London South Bank University. What is your take on what the | :40:41. | :40:48. | |
Government is now saying? I'm pleased to see the Government | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
putting this paper forward. I think there are a number of really | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
important principles in there. They are reemphasising thor importance | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
and focus of widening access on social be mobility which we are | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
making in-roads on, but could do more and they are emphasising | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
putting students at the heart of the system which is always something | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
that universities need to continue to work on. They are looking at the | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
fact that the sector has changed substantially over recent years, | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
therefore, what will it look like in the future and what regulatory | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
framework do we need? It is positive to see them putting this forward. | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
Are the universities, the former polytechnics, are they fairly | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
unstigmatised places, as places of bad teaching. In my experience, you | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
get pretty bad teaching at Russell Group universities as well? I don't | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
think they are necessarily stigmatised. I think the challenge I | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
have with actually is the things like the phrase dock polytechnics. | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
But when you think, most universities like Egyptian officials | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
like mine have been universities since 1992. When the big switch-over | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
took place. Most of the students coming from school now weren't born | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
them. It doesn't have context now for a lot of the students coming | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
through. Do you charge ?9,000? We do. Does it make sense, in effect, | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
all the universities are really charging the same. Does it really | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
make sense - let's just take the London South Bank University. The | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
Guardian Higher Education Tables, you are 11th out of 119th higher | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
education institutions in the 2016 rankings but you charge the same as | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE. Does that make sense? A couple of | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
points. If you look at the ?9,000 fee. It has been fixed for coming up | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
to five years. Therefore, we are in a position where actually delivering | :42:44. | :42:45. | |
that education, in many courses, actually costs more than ?9,000. It | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
is not that we have brought in the additional nvenlingt we have | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
actually seen a cut in grants from Government of about 80%. Additional | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
income. I understand why you are charging it. I would think if you | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
are a student, do you think - I will get to one of the most famous | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
universities in the world t costs me ?9,000, or do I go to London South | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
Bank University, not quite so famous t still costs me ?9,000 Let's look | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
at specifics. Maybe this is one of the opportunities that we have with | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
the paper about trying to puncture some of those myths. If we look at | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
London South Bank University we take a diverse range of students. | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
Graduate employment rates are comparable with many select | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
institution, top half of the table. According to the Guardian fewer than | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
50% of your graduates are in graduate level employment within six | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
months. It is the second-worst in the country. I think your data is a | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
little old. Currently the amount of students in graduate employment for | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
South Bank is about 75% and we are in the top 20 of graduate starters. | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
When did that? This year's data. This data is... It is out of date. | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
What was the revolution in two years? The main changes we have been | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
making, the same with every university, you focus on your | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
courses, look at how you develop. What we have been doing is focussing | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
much more on placement opportunities, on providing | :44:15. | :44:16. | |
additional guidance, and volunteering activity. Awe dress the | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
issues? It is around not just the teaching and what we deliver but it | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
is around the environment that students get access to. A lot of | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
students were telling us, one of the key aims was around career | :44:29. | :44:30. | |
progression. It is not true for every student. Some students want to | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
do other things. It is trying to meet the diverse requirement of the | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
student body and to celebrate the range and diversity of students we | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
have within the UK. Would you have more diversity if your fees were | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
lower? I'm in the too sure we would have more diversity. More students | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
from poorer backgrounds? There is no evidence for that. The area where we | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
have concerns is on part-time numbers. They have dropped | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
nationally. And that's got to be addressed. Because a lot of the | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
future potential for higher education, is around part-time | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
because a lot of people we need to retrain are already in jobs. If you | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
look at the entry to undergraduate course, those numbers have remained | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
stable. I think there is a need, as we move forward, to try to address | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
two things - one is making sure that the universities have the ability it | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
depeet globally because we do compete globally, whilst at the same | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
time looking at the tow tality of the total the student has to borrow | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
and see if we have the individual right between the student and state | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
and employer. It is not just the student. Many come from socio | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
economic backgrounds, so they are Borowski yoking to cope with | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
subsistence. To live in London. Yes and it is not cheap. | :45:54. | :46:02. | |
Because of these students are expecting some sort of return. When | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
I went there were no fees and you could do what you want and the job | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
would look after itself. Could we get to a situation where some of the | :46:14. | :46:21. | |
underperforming universities might close because students will say, I'm | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
not going there. And they should. I hate we start the debate from the | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
point of view of these of ?9,000 per year. It is wrong, Tony Blair | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
brought it in, and education should be free at undergraduate level. The | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
other issue is the ridiculous 50% target people going to university. | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
I've spoken to people who say, I don't see why I should take a job | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
working as a carer or waitress because I have a degree. And they | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
have a 2.2 in media studies from Bank! With all due respect, those | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on. It looks like | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
there's a market failure going on. Worst performing universities are | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
still charging ?9,000. The signals are not working the way they should | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
be. The problem is, if you are a student, and you make the decision | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
for three years, and if you discover halfway through the teaching is not | :47:17. | :47:18. | |
up to scratch, it's difficult to go back on your choice. There is a high | :47:19. | :47:27. | |
dropout rate as well. There are two points, one is that a lot of people | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
are out of date with what the courses are like. Media is one of | :47:34. | :47:43. | |
the UK, creative industries. It's predicted around 80% of future jobs | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
will require a degree of higher-level education. I think a | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
lot of people are out of tune. We don't need to just look at current | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
universities, but what we can do is look at providers to upscale people | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
and provide all those with opportunities. Thank you for joining | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
us. Now, | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
he was one of Ukip's highest profile ethnic minority candidates and | :48:05. | :48:06. | |
their former Commonwealth spokesman, but now Winston McKenzie has quit | :48:07. | :48:08. | |
the party claiming that he's been Here's Nigel Farage lauding | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
Mr McKenzie earlier this year as proof of the party's appeal | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
amongst ethnic minority voters. Let this picture of me on the stage | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
with these wonderful men and women, from all their different backgrounds | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
and their united belief in being British and being part of this | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
country and in wanting this country to be free and independent, | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
and self-governing and proud. Let this be Ukip's | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
Clause Four moment. But from this moment on, please, | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
do not ever call us a racist party. Good to see you. Handshake, very | :48:46. | :49:12. | |
nice. Let me quote, earlier this week you said you were racially | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
discriminated against by people higher up in Ukip. Without naming | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
names, because the lawyers are watching, what evidence do you have? | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
I was receiving letters, phone calls, and the work I had done for | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
the party with regards to the infrastructure of Ukip in London was | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
profound. I created a training course that was so successful, | :49:37. | :49:44. | |
certain members higher up became jealous and angry of me. The | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
training class that I created, I personally trained 30 people... | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
Let's accept that you have done a great job for the party. I'm asking | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
you for the evidence that you suffered from racial dissemination. | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
When I initially came into the party, the Ukip website was people | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
issuing their comments about me. Racist comments that were so bad | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
that they had to pull down the site. Did you know these were Ukip | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
members? All sorts of websites have all sorts of trolling. The situation | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
got so bad I brought it to the party's Chief Executive. I spoke to | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
Nigel Farage and told him I was having problems. There were people | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
in the party that were racist. When I say racist, Andrew, I'm not | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
referring to Ukip members, these people are the salt of the earth. | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
I'm not referring to people directly involved with Nigel and the | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
leadership itself, I'm referring to four or five people within the party | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
who are blatantly racist. So is your complaint that Ukip is not | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
institutionally racist, but it has some members that are racist? Some | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
members in it are racist. As a man of my integrity, I'm a black man | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
trying to make better in society, and I will not stand for it in this | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
day and age. What would you say to some people who say it is just sour | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
grapes on your part after you were dropped from the front bench earlier | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
this year, did not become the London mayor candidate and did not become | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
one of the London assembly candidates, and maybe you have | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
concluded that your career in Ukip is going nowhere? They would love | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
for that to be the case. Every politician within Ukip or any | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
political party would love to be included in the list. To be the | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
mayor candidate, whatever. But the simple fact is that I pride myself | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
as a politician in democracy. Ukip prides itself in democracy. The | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
selection process for the mayoral candidates and the London assembly, | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
the Ukip membership was not included. It is this lackadaisical | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
form of organisation that are ignored me at the end of the day. Is | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
it true that you've been a member of every political party? I never | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
joined Labour. Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, Veritas, with | :52:17. | :52:24. | |
Kilroy. Unity was my party. And. You only have to look at the greats, and | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
I'm great. Looked at Churchill matter how many times did he move | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
his position? He won elections. I'm a new boy. I only want a shadow box | :52:35. | :52:44. | |
with you today, not spa. Didn't you audition for the X factor? That's | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
what's wrong with politics today, politicians need to put themselves | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
about and get involved in ordinary peoples' lives. I get around. I know | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
what's going on. They didn't choose you, but looking at the Ukip | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
candidates for the London assembly, they chose them a couple of weeks | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
ago and a third of them are from ethnic minorities. Thanks to Winston | :53:09. | :53:18. | |
McKenzie. But not you. So is racism... Would a racist party | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
choose a third of its membership from ethic minorities? Speak to any | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
member or activist, and ask them who is responsible for the influx of | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
black and ethnic minorities into Ukip, and they will say it was | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
Winston. You can never be a prophet in your own land! I'm a profit where | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
ever I go. I didn't need them to choose me because the work I did | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
will go on as a legacy. I wonder if Ukip took the view that as a | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
politician you could be a bit of a liability. After all, you once | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
described Croydon as a dump. It's a point of view, but probably not a | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
point of view you should have, if, as you were, the local election | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
candidate. Andrew, you have to speak the truth and tell it as you see it. | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
That's why you lost! The place is a dump. The whole of London is | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
becoming a dump. Go outside portcullis house and see the chewing | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
gum on the floor. I'm sorry I didn't include the rest of London. That's | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
obviously why they didn't choose you for the London assembly. When you | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
are growing up, did you see black bags and rubbish dumped everywhere? | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
Of course I did, I grew up in Paisley! I never saw that when I | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
came to this country when I was five years old, and the streets were | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
clean. It's a dump. It's about time we did something about it. Sounds | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
like the people weren't ready for your message. Most people think that | :54:51. | :54:59. | |
London is kind of... Having a render sums beyond belief. When I first | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
came to London after university it was a declining British city. It's | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
now one of the... If not the... Global cities of the world. It's a | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
shame Boris Johnson got voted out with regard to the water cannons. If | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
I was Mayor of London tomorrow I would have the streets washed with | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
water cannons. The whole town, Andrew, needs an enema. There is no | :55:24. | :55:31. | |
doubt about it. You have been complaining about racism in Ukip. I | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
understand you are not saying the party is institutionally racist. And | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
it's not aimed at the leader. I understand. You've had a few what I | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
might call politically incorrect positions. You said a gay couple | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
adopting a child was abuse. I'm entitled to my personal Christian | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
opinions. It's not very diverse or inclusive. If you claim to purport | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
to represent the people, a certain amount of people in various | :56:02. | :56:03. | |
different areas that need to be heard and you carry their voice. You | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
said you were dismayed that former boxing promoter Frank Maloney, now | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
Kellie Maloney, had a six change. I knew the guy well. I wish him all | :56:13. | :56:21. | |
the best as a woman. You are not dismayed any more? I'm not dismayed. | :56:22. | :56:32. | |
I'm sad at the loss of Frank Maloney. He was a great man. Has | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
Winston McKenzie been badly done by? It seems to be a bruised ego. The | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
only person with a justifiable bruised ego over the candidate for | :56:43. | :56:56. | |
Ukip for London mayor is Susan. She had a brief couple of days as party | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
leader, had name recognition, and would have been ideal candidate to | :57:00. | :57:01. | |
become fifth in the elections. Which is what will happen. I would love to | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
have seen a London mayoral candidate with the slogan, London is a dump. | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
It would have been great. If we are to talk the truth, speak the truth, | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
you go around London, and many of us don't walk with our heads down, but | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
London specifically is becoming the most atrocious place with regards to | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
hygiene. But it's also becoming a place that is welcoming to people of | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
many different backgrounds and people of different sexual | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
orientation. It's a liberal city with a small letter L. I'm | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
incredibly offended by somebody who uses God as a get out clause for | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
homophobia. What party will you join now? The Greens! My intention is to | :57:49. | :57:57. | |
support Ukip policies and stand as an independent mayoral candidate. If | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
any sponsors out there want to back me, come on board, join the Winston | :58:01. | :58:14. | |
McKenzie. If you stop talking, I will give you a mug. | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
Well, we asked Ukip for an interview to respond to Winston's claims | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
However, the party did send us a statement. | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
"We are sorry to say goodbye to Winston after six eventful years, | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
and saddened by the manner of his leaving. | :58:28. | :58:29. | |
We have enjoyed working with him, and he has kept us busy defending | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
his right to free speech, his imaginative schemes and his highly | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
We will miss him, and wish him well." | :58:36. | :58:37. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
The question was whose giant effigy was burnt last night | :58:42. | :58:43. | |
at the infamous annual bonfire celebrations in the usually peaceful | :58:44. | :58:45. | |
I think Nigel Farage. I think it was Cameron. | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
A giant effigy of David Cameron and a dead pig's head was burnt | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
last night in Lewes at their bonfire celebrations. | :58:52. | :58:53. | |
The 15 foot puppet of the Prime Minister was wearing nothing | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
MUSIC: Lust For Life by Iggy Pop | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
There is a place where music comes to life, | :59:06. | :59:07. | |
With one foot in the past and one in the future. | :59:08. | :59:19. | |
..could be the best record you've ever heard. | :59:20. | :59:23. |