05/11/2015 Daily Politics

After the UK suspends flights to and from Sharm el-Sheikh over

security fears, the Government says it's doing all

Thousands of British holiday makers are stuck in the Egyptian resort

following fresh fears over the cause of the Russian airline disaster.

There is a growing British and American belief that the airliner

was blown up mid air. The Government says there is

a significant possibility that the crash was caused

by an explosive device. As President Sisi

of Egypt arrives in the UK for an important visit, the crisis in

Sharm el Sheikh is a major diplomatic

headache for the Government. Tax credits -

is it time for a complete rethink? George Osborne is urged to scrap any

cuts to tax credits altogether. And do you know your Das Capital

from your Communist Manifesto? We report on the surging demand

for radical left-wing literature. I'd better put my copy of the

commonest manifesto on eBay! We might get as much as for a Daily

Politics mug. All that in the next hour -

and with us for the whole of the programme today, the Shadow

Secretary of State for International The biggest title I've ever had to

introduce you with! Five days on from the Russian

airline disaster over Egypt, which killed all 224 people on board,

Britain has suspended flights to and from the resort of Sharm el-Sheikh,

from where the plane had departed. It was en route to St Petersberg and

was a charter holiday flight for holiday-makers.

The Government increasingly seems to think it was a terrorist attack.

David Cameron has today chaired another meeting of the Government's

emergency committee, Cobra, and we're joined now from Whitehall

Norman, I know there's a lot of demonstrations going on, with

Egyptians and so on. I hope they are leaving you alone. Although the

government clearly doesn't yet know for sure, it seems that the British

and the Americans are moving towards the conclusion that it was a bomb.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that certainly the British government

believes this was an ISO attack. When the Foreign Secretary, Philip

Hammond, was asked directly, was this an Isis bomb, he said, "that

supposition is a possibility". Strip away the diplomatic niceties and

that basically means yes, we think so. There are lots of different

affiliated groups to Isis but that clearly is the thinking in British

government circles and the suggestion seems to be that this is

a result of intelligence which came to Britain independently of the

Russian investigation into the crash site. It is not all clear how much

information has actually been forthcoming from the Russians accept

that one side, the British government yesterday became

absolutely clear that they to move and move very quickly. Let me tell

you this. The emergency Cobra meeting has actually just finished.

The Prime Minister has said a few words. He is flagging up that

getting the British holiday-makers home could take "sometime". That

would fit in with everything else that we've been hearing this

morning. Philip Hammond saying, "we will do everything we can to make

sure Sharm el-Sheikh airport is safe, but that is regardless of the

inconvenience, regardless of the delays, regardless of the time

endeavoured it takes". I take that to mean that people should not

expect that just because flights are likely to begin again tomorrow that

they are going to be able to hop on a plane tomorrow. It seems that it

could take quite a bit of time to get people home. There have also

been suggestions that Hercules RAF planes could be on stand-by to take

people home. That isn't going to be much of an answer because they only

carry around 100 people. The last factor which is adding to the

likelihood of the delay is the suggestion that other countries may

be poised to follow the British examples. The Dutch have already

followed our example. Philip Hammond this morning said he expected more

to do the same. When you put that together, the situation at Sharm

el-Sheikh airport seems to me to be one that will be very slow,

protracted and difficult and if you are a holiday-maker there, I think

you will have to brace yourself for some considerable delays. That's

interesting. Tell me this, coming back to the diplomacy. Never mind

the Russians, the Egyptians have their own reasons for not wanting

this to be a terrorist attack. They are highly dependent on tourism,

particularly in places like Sharm el-Sheikh. We suspended the

flights, in line but it is a bomb, but how will this affect the visit

of the Egyptian president and influence what Mr Cameron hopes to

get out of this meeting? -- in plying it is a bomb. There is no

doubt that from my colleagues who were spoken to senior figures from

the Egyptian government, they are steaming furious at the fact the

British government appears to have pretty much acted and then told the

Egyptian government what we were doing but the view in Downing Street

was that the pressure was such, planes were about to take off,

decisions had to be made. They couldn't staff around with all the

diplomatic niceties for top they had to act then. But if you're an

Egyptian, you are thinking, what is going on? This is our airport, this

is a potential body blow to our economy, you don't have the courtesy

to tell us what is going on. Inevitably, relations are going to

be bruised, particularly when part of this visit wasn't just about

security and the emerging threat from Isis in North Africa but was

also about trying to build better economic links. If tourism goes down

the Suwanee in Egypt as a result of this, that is going to be a fairly

significant body blow to economic relations. Thank you very much for

that. Good of you to update us and mark our card. The British and the

Americans set the standards on global international flights and I

think it is clear other countries will follow. The Irish and the Dutch

have done, as Norman said. Norman was talking about the impact on to

wrist and travel companies. And to get a sense of what this all

means for British tourists and travel companies, we're joined now

by Sean Tipton of the Association The Foreign Secretary has said that

flights won't be resumed until the situation is safe. That could be

days. Normal business may not resume tomorrow at all. It may be the

weekend. It may well be. We're in the hands of the governments and the

security experts who flown out from the UK to make sure that people can

fly safely. I certainly heard Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary,

saying this morning that he was quite optimistic that flights could

resume tomorrow so that's a good sign. I want to stress that the

advice from the foreign office is that they are advising against all

but essential travel to and from Sharm el-Sheikh airport. That is

important because that is how you are going to get home but they are

not saying that about the resort itself. We have around 9000

customers on package holidays, many of whom haven't been there terribly

long and if they were due to be there for two weeks, they will be

continuing with their holidays. We are not being asked to get people

out of the resort as quickly as possible. They will come back in

normal way. So I say for the vast majority of passengers who are there

now, they will continue with their holidays and come back on their

originally scheduled flights. The issue will be for people who were

due to travel yesterday or until the government is happy that the

security situation has improved at Sharm el-Sheikh airport. If they are

on packages, they will almost certainly an all-inclusive package

and our members will simply let them stay in hotels and if there are any

extra bills, them to us. A lot of people may have travelled

independently and flown out with various airlines who have made their

own arrangements for accommodation. They are in a slightly different

situation. The airlines will accept bills for reasonable expenses but

they may have to pay that themselves and then take it up with the airline

when they get back to the UK. We have to end it there. Diane, we have

stopped all flights because we think there is a significant possibility

that ISDN and the plane. I haven't seen the information that government

ministers have seen but you have to accept that they have to

ministers have seen but you have to lives of British holiday-makers

first. Clearly it is disastrous for the Egyptian economy but in the

end, that is not their responsibility. The British

government have gone out on a limb. There has been some surprise from

aviation experts who have expressed intrigue stop

aviation experts who have expressed word to say

aviation experts who have expressed decision to take the action that the

Egyptians are obvious the very upset about?

Egyptians are obvious the very upset Hammond announcer? My understanding

is that they Hammond announcer? My understanding

of the United States. In such a situation, you have to be prepared

to accept situation, you have to be prepared

information you haven't seen and it is people's lives. The Americans

will have satellite surveillance is people's lives. The Americans

can't second-guess ministers who have seen security intelligence.

As Norman mentioned, the Prime Minister convened a meeting of

Cobra, the emergency Cabinet committee, this morning, to discuss

the situation in Egypt post of the Russian disaster and

the situation in Egypt post of the Minister had a few words to say as

he left the Cobra meeting. Let's hear what it was. First of all, I

have every sympathy for the Egyptians because, of course,

tourism is vitally important to the economy. I want to restore our links

and our flights with Egypt as soon is is safe and is possible but I

have to put the safety of British people first. If that Russian

airliner was brought down by a terrorist bomb, that does have very

real implications and it means it is absolutely essential that we see

that improvement of security at Sharm el-Sheikh airport, and that's

what I'll be discussing with the Egyptians today and we'll be working

round-the-clock with our experts to help put that in place. The Prime

Minister speaking in the Cabinet room after the emergency meeting of

Cobra. As we've been hearing,

the events of the last few hours have overshadowed Egyptian President

Sisi's visit to the UK. David Cameron will meet Mr Sisi this

afternoon, although the President's human rights record has made many

uneasy about the visit. President Sisi arrived in the UK

last night David Cameron argues it's

in Britain's interest to have a stable Egypt to help halt the

spread of extremism in the region. The Egyptian leader led

the army's overthrow of the democratically elected

Muslim Brotherhood's Mohammed Morsi Since then, more than 1,000 people

have been killed and 40,000 are believed to have been

jailed in a crackdown on dissent. President Sisi has told

the BBC that there is "a roadmap for real democracy in Egypt" and argues

that the threat from militants means The problem is particularly acute in

Egypt's Sinai region, which is also home to the heavily guarded and

lucrative resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, where the plane crashed and where

the UK has suspended flights. David Cameron may be willing to help

President Sisi, with reports this morning that he will announce new

curbs on Muslim Brotherhood activity in the UK - although how tough they

will be remains to be seen. Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday that

the Prime Minister's invitation to the Egyptian President showed

"contempt for human and democratic rights and threatens,

rather than protects, Speaking in the Commons a short

while ago, the Foreign Office Minister Tobias Ellwood said David

Cameron would be bringing up human It is no secret that we want to see

more political progress in Egypt, better protection of Egyptians'

constitutional rights, freedom of expression, more space

for NGOs and civil society. These rights

and freedoms are essential But megaphone diplomacy is not

the way to succeed in putting Instead, we need to treat each other

as real partners and have frank The visit provides an opportunity

for the Prime Minister to emphasise his desire to see more

political progress in Egypt. Joining me now is the

Conservative MP and former defence minister Gerald

Howarth - he now chairs the All And Tim Marshall, who is the former

Foreign Affairs editor of Sky News. Welcome to you both. Let me start

with some basics. Tim, how bad is the human rights situation in Egypt?

As bad as it has ever been under all the previous leaders, including

President Morsi who was overthrown. There is a continuum. Under the

current president, the judiciary has been co-opted. There is massive

pressure on journalists to toe the party line, and torture remains

routine. It is no better or worse than it was before the Miss named

Arab Spring. So it is like the days under Mubarak? A slight difference

is that although they had the quasi-democracy under Mubarak where

they pretended to count the votes, they really did have a vote for this

guy and 96% voted for this president. Do we believe that? More

or less. You can massage it a bit but the clear majority, even if it

wasn't 96%, voted for him because after the turmoil of 2012-14, they

wanted the strongman back and they voted for the strongman and they've

got the strong man and he's, you could say, being strong. It is as it

was. I take it that the government has been further encouraged, or

facilitated, in its clamp-down by this developing terrorist situation

in the northern Sinai. Could you explain how these... First of all,

how bad it is in the Sinai and how it is linked to the domestic

situation? When the Muslim Brotherhood was

overthrown with popular support, it was suppressed and put completely

underground. Therefore large sections of it have turned to

terror. There's a ready made terrorist organisation already

there. They've born affinity with Islamic State. They are called Sinai

Province. The worst of it is in north Sinai. There's at least 1,500

fighters who've signed allegiance to IS. Takes you to potential attack on

Russia and on tourism. You collapse tourism and you really, really

damage Egypt into that vacuum you try and step. It has spread from

northern Sinai into some of the major cities. But very sporadically.

Most is in northern Sinai. There you've had a Croatian hostage

beheaded. Numerous attacks on army checkpoints and one very serious

attack this year where 13 different positions were attacked

simultaneously. That takes training. It is a proper insurgery in northern

Sinai. Thank you. We have to deal with lots of Governments. That's

what being in Government means. From what we hear from Tim and the

crackdown taken in Egypt, shouldn't we be supping with a long spoon?

We've the the President of the people's republic of China here. We

know what their record on human rights and cyber attack on this

country and around the world. It is entirely right that the British

Government's invited President Sisi to come here. Egypt is a very

important component in regional stability. Egypt has made a big

contribution into trying to resolve the Arab/Israeli problem. A

continuing problem. They face a real threat as Tim outlined. We face the

same threat. They are trying to deal with it. I think the UK is extremely

well placed to #234e7 in counter-terrorism. We should be

helping President Sisi? Absolutely. Really? It is clear, of course, the

human rights issue is important. The Prime Minister must deal with it.

Would we have liked people telling us how to deal with Northern Ireland

when we had interment without trial and issues like that? We faced...

Beam did tell us. Not many from outside except perhaps the United

States and those in Chicago, I think, had a voice. I want to be

clear, I want to bring Diane in, it is not just enough to sup with a

long spoon. You think we should be an ally of President Sisi? We

should. If Egypt goes down, this is the most populist country. They have

a population of 90 million. The next is Saudia Arabia with a third of

that. They have a millennia of experience and, as a cultural centre

in the middle East, they're very influential. Diane Abbott, we don't

need to like this Government. We often don't get to choose what

Governments we like and don't like. Egypt, it's probably the most

important Arab country in the middle east, the one the rest of the Middle

East looks to for culture. We have to deal with it? Yes, biyou think it

was wrong to issue this invitation. It has been issued, he's coming now.

As well as discussing what's happening in Sharm el-Sheikh and the

important political considerations we have to have a dialogue about

human rights? We should be speaking to him? We should not have issued

the inas a result ace but if we are to solve some of the problems in the

region we have to talk to people we may not want to. Including President

Sisi? Mr Corbyn, your leader, argued that President Sisi's presence in

the UK threatened our national security. Why? The leader of the

Labour Party was post-innovatation and so was I. Why does it threaten

our national security? I think this is a tightrope. It could be that be

being seen to support a sleeteder with such a horrible record on human

rights, we create instability. It's a judgment. That's right but that

would be a case for not talking to him at all. Not a matter of timing.

If he's a threat to our national security we shouldn't be talking to

him at all by Mr Corbyn's lights. Not just the timing's unfortunate.

The argument about these official invitations whether China or

President Sisi, offering that level of acknowledge 789, it is almost

like you're rubber-stamping their human rights atrocities. But we're

talking about human rights. If he wasn't here we probably wouldn't be.

Explain the logic Mr Corbyn doesn't want to talk to President Sisi

because of his human rights record but has been happy to call

Hezbollah, Hamas the IRA friends. Look at their human rights record. I

don't think anyone is literally saying we shouldn't talk to

President Sisi. Your leader said he's a threat to national security.

Do we award him the honour of this visit. We will all, including

Gerald, have to talk to people we don't particularly like. The they

have regular hangings of homosexuals. Been throwing people

off buildings. Should we not talk to them? None of the problems in

off buildings. Should we not talk to region will be solved without

off buildings. Should we not talk to talking to some major regional

players. Doesn't that include Egypt? Like Egypt, like Iran. In particular

in relation to human rights we have to talk to people. Diane made the

cases why we should to talk to people. Diane made the

sorry your to talk to people. Diane made the

beige as you Diane. Our about this invitation. Not that at

no point or place... It is only about timing? It's about this

invitation. about timing? It's about this

out to be for the ewe about timing? It's about this

of what happened with this plane crash in Sharm el-Sheikh? There's a

serious cape abimity in the Sinai desert with terrorists linked to the

people we're fighting with our desert with terrorists linked to the

bombing raids in Iraq and are active in Syria? It seems to

bombing raids in Iraq and are active putting the human rights record

aside, I understand that, now's not a bad time to take to the Egyptian

president. We're going to have to communicate with him. At every

level. There are two extra elements I'd like to put in. After the

misnamed Arab Spring we've seen what happens when we get dragged in and

misnamed Arab Spring we've seen what don't deal with people. We got

kicked out of Afghanistan, Iraq similar. The current Government

kicked out of Afghanistan, Iraq us involved in Libya. Said

kicked out of Afghanistan, Iraq stand shoulder to shoulder with the

Libyan people and walked away. This is the guy who lives next to Libya.

Do we really not want to talk to him about the Libyan situation and other

things? Can you imagine if Egypt went the same way as these other

countries? There are Coptic Christians there, about 1 million of

them. If Egypt, God forbid, went down that road, those 12 million

Christians would be in a serious amount of trouble. Run the risk of

being massacred. Do you want to engage with this guy and find out

what the hell is going on inside Egypt or just say, I'm not talking

to you. Why, I know you need to get away... We have a statement from the

secretary for transport. Is it seemly for Mr David Cameron to

announce a crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood while the President's

here? Is that really the right thing to do. Isn't that playing to the

gallery? There's been a review done of the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK.

That review is about to be produced. I'm sure his visit is a good

opportunity to do that. He took over from President Morsi. The idea

President Morsi was is saint, he was not. He suspended the constitution.

I don't think anyone said he was a saint. Tim set out the history of

Egypt. Not a happy history. Here's an opportunity for the UK, which

knows the region, everybody tells me when I go as a minister to visit the

region, they say, we don't expect the Americans to understand. We

expect you to. You've been here for 200 years. Let's seize the

opportunity for Britain to influence Egypt for the good and help the

region to boot. We Jo understood it so well that not one of our highly

paid ambassadors predicted the Arab Spring. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, with concerns that terrorist activity may have been involved

in the downing of the Russian jet in Sinai, it was timely for MPs

yesterday to discuss plans to give the security services greater powers

to intercept the communications of internet users in the UK.

The Home Secretary said the new Investigatory Powers Bill

would allow officers to see a list of websites visited without needing

a warrant, but that safeguards were in place to ensure the content

of a person's browsing history was not immediately accessible.

Here's a a quick recap of the debate.

Mr Speaker, the legislation we are proposing today is unprecedented.

It will provide unparalleled openness and transparency

It will provide the strongest safeguards and world-leading

oversight arrangements, and it will give the men and women of our

security and intelligence agencies and our law enforcement agencies,

who do so much to keep us safe and secure, the powers they need to

This will place a double lock on the authorisation of our most

Democratic accountability through the Secretary

of State to ensure our intelligence agencies operate in the interests

of the citizens of this country, and the public reassurance of

The issues which this proposed legislation seeks to tackle go

Any government will face a difficult task in balancing the

security of the nation with privacy and liberties of individual citizens

and as somebody who was in the Home Office on 7/7, I know that challenge

We will examine carefully the detail of the draft bill

and seek to improve the safeguards to build trust but having listened

carefully to what the Home Secretary had to say today, I believe she has

responded to legitimate concerns and broadly got that difficult

Her last bill on this fraught but important subject hit

the buffers but this bill is a much improved model,

though I have the feeling that under the bonnet it still retains some

even if I'm one of the few who do remain concerned, about the

excessive powers which will be given to the security authorities in

Diane abpot, do you agree with Andy Burnham Theresa May got it right

this time? It is a much better bill. The main thing which makes it better

is the involvement of judges. We'll subject it to scrutiny in committee.

We'll see what comes out of that process. What are you still unhappy

with? We're unhappy about whether these very sweeping powers are

really necessary. I have to admit to the fact I have a slight element of

bias. I was the subject of undercover policing in another life.

The Labour Party as a whole takes these issues very seriously. Right,

scrutiny but not voting against. You'll join the Shadow Cabinet to

vote with Andy Burnham in favour? Scrutiny, if we feel it needs

amending, we will amend it. We'll look at it line by line. You say

there are sweeping powers. Theresa May says there are safeguards in

place. Judges having authorisation in some cases. She says people can't

access everyone's browsing history, just basic data. A modern equivalent

of an itemised phone bill. Are you convinced by that? I am prepared. If

officers want to mount more intrusive spying operations,

including accessing the content of emails, they'll still need a warrant

from the Home Secretary or another senior minister. Is that enough for

you? That is important. But, in the past, it seems that scrutiny

undercover activity went on without a proper warrant. Jeremy Corbyn has

historically opposed any increases in powers. Said the existing powers

were enough. What will he do now? We have a collective position as a

party on this bill. Andy Burnham set it out. The key thing will be how we

are able to amend the bill and what comes up under scrutiny. You've

previously said, regarding the data retention and investigatory powers

act, spooks convinced gullible leaders of all three parties to push

through I will liberal legislation. Do you think think that's happening

here still? Spooks did but the important thing about this ledge Is

slayings is the judicial checks and balances which is what makes it

different from the Liberal Democrat isolation we were presented before.

Some of your MPs aren't convinced the privacy concerns have been taken

on board enough. David Winnick is sceptical. A lot of us are but we

are happy to be convinced as the bill goes through its stages.

A big report has come out this morning. Inflation, which is 0% by

the CPI measure this year, will stay below 1% until at least the second

half of next year. It has extended the period of low inflation. It has

cut growth for this year but only very marginally. It is also said,

and this is a big development, that it is going to keep the quantitative

easing, the electronic printing of money that I grow 375 billion - it

will stay out there until inflation hits the bank's target of 2%. But as

a major change our at least a loosening of our policy.

The Government has promised to look again

at its proposed cuts to tax credits after the proposal was defeated

Here's what George Osborne had to say to the House of Commons

I said I would listen and that's precisely what I intend to do.

I believe we can achieve the same goal of reforming tax credits,

saving the money we need to save to secure our economy, while at the

That is what I intend to do at the Autumn Statement.

I'm determined to deliver that lower welfare, higher wage economy that we

were elected to deliver and the British people want to see.

And we can welcome viewers in Scotland, who have been watching

first ministers questions. Although he's been forced

in to a U-turn of sorts, Mr Osborne says he is determined to push

through with reform to tax credits. However, the Resolution Foundation,

which deals with policy issues that affect those on low incomes,

says the Chancellor should scrap his planned cuts to tax credits

altogether and says Torsten Bell is the Director

of the Resolution Foundation, and we're also joined by the

Chief Executive of the Welcome to both of you. We've heard

about weeks being made. Things are going to be done to mitigate cuts to

tax credits. So how can you say that he should drop the idea altogether

when we don't quite know what he is proposing? Your was the right, we

don't know what he's proposing but the state of the debate we're now at

is that we are at the stage where something must be done and we are

looking at what the options are that Osborne has Ed Veal statement which

is now only 20 days away. Our view is that fudge options, where they

are tweaked a little, would deliver economically or politically for the

Chancellor. He should look to reverse some of the changes and he

can do that while maintaining his fiscal objectives. So you are saying

there isn't money that can be spent that will make a dramatic enough

change to tax credit cuts, or make the savings he once? Clearly there

are things the Chancellor could do and we should welcome his raising of

the new national minimum wage, which will benefit some people who boos

from the tax credit changes but further increases to the minimum

wage or tax cuts won't compensate them for losing tax credits. These

are fundamentally different people. Five ways you've got of changing the

system and offering an alternative. Why didn't the government come up

with that? If they are so obvious and seem to be pain-free, why

wouldn't the Chancellor have come up with them? Very few decisions in

politics are trade free -- pain-free and they involve trade-offs. He will

be looking to make trade-offs when -- on the 25th of December. You have

an amount of pain borne by a small group of people and that will ease

the pressure. Before we go onto exactly what you are proposing, do

you accept that cuts to tax credits, morally, were the right thing to do?

I certainly wouldn't have started from here and I think there are a

lot of things the government should have been looking at before it

looked at cutting these tax credits, not least the benefits received by

pensioners. Inflation is running at no % this year. We've got pensions

going up by 2.5%. That is utterly unsustainable and unaffordable and

the government should be looking up that kind of thing. The fact that

winter fuel payments are given to every pensioner, even millionaire

pensioners, despite the fact that the government has rightly stopped

giving child benefit to better off families. It is still giving winter

flu payments to the richest pensioners. Ugly unjustifiable. --

winter fuel payments. There are other things that should have been

cut first but there are also other things the government needs to be

looking at that it should be doing things the government needs to be

itself to give people a better and more affordable cost of living. When

forced and was working for Ed Miliband, Ed Miliband rightly talked

about the cost of living crisis in this country. We've got to remember

the this country. We've got to remember

through taxes. The poorest in this country pay a huge amount for that

is -- of their disposable income on VAT and fuel duty. Housing in this

country is incredible expensive because planning restrictions

resulting not of homes being built, which means rises are more expensive

than they should be. There are things that government itself should

be doing at the outset to improve the cost of living for everybody.

Your suggestions? We are trying to say there are a range of ways the

Chancellor can do this because they will all face different trade-offs.

Even without raising any additional taxes, the Chancellor could reverse

the most punitive parts of the tax credits, the cut to the income

threshold, where you start to lose your tax credits when you're earning

increases, and still deliver fiscal objectives by the end of this

Parliament. Was it ever acceptable to have taxpayers and the government

topping up people's income, just as a principle, with that bill now at

?30 billion a year? At the time Gordon Brown brought them in, the

alternative would have been to put up child benefit quite sharply and

have a higher minimum wage, quite a distinctly higher minimum wage, and

the judgment at the time was that that wasn't politically acceptable.

Torsten is a boffin. Is that a compliment? He was Ed Miliband's

boffin but the policy is clear. It is this government taking money off

the strivers, exactly the working people whose support they need if

they are going to become what George Osborne tried to post a few weeks

ago they had become, the party of the workers. His tax credit strategy

has blown his "we are the party of the workers" strategy out of the

water. That's his political problem. Can I pick up something you said at

the start of that question, which is the 30 million tax credit bill

doesn't all go to working families. The majority of that goes to out of

work families and is wrong to talk about that subsidising employers.

There is no country in the world that doesn't provide a form of in

work support so the idea of a black-and-white ideological... Once

you're in work, the firm should pave everything for large families, that

isn't a world that exists and is available to us. You would be

talking about minimum wage is much higher than anywhere in the world.

The Chancellor in the last parliament said that tax credits

were serving three different objectives. Tackling child poverty,

improving work incentives for those on low incomes but it is also

providing some cash support for those on hiring comes and he did

change that. There is an argument that that is a reasonable thing to

do stopped -- higher incomes. He is now cutting into the core of the

system, which is why we are getting large losses for working people. How

much should somebody be working at the point where tax credits stop? I

don't think it is for me to pluck a number out of the air but I think

the government needs to look at what it is doing itself. It is making the

cost of living more expensive for people. Moreover, the whole tax

credit system is incredibly compensated to understand. We all

remember a few weeks ago the woman on Question Time talking about her

potential losses of tax credits. It emerged later she isn't going to

lose out. It is the perception. The fact that you have the tax credits

system and you have the tax system separated... We have said for some

time that there would be an argument for introducing a negative income

tax which would be administered and integrated inside the tax system so

that you don't have the DWP and HMRC both playing with different pots of

money... It is complicated but the truth is that hundreds of thousands

of people - David Cameron still won't admit how many - are going to

lose money. Real people, real lives. We will see what happens in the

spending review and the Autumn Statement. But since Diane mentioned

it, because we weren't going to mention it at all, she did say you

were Miliband's director of policy. How do you think his successor is

getting on? I worked for the Labour Party for five years and I'm really

proud to have done that. I now work for a charity working for low and

middle income families. That is different and we will be holding

parties and policies across the spectrum into account. I'm not going

to get into a commentary. The British public are going to do judge

their views on Jeremy Corbyn, George Osborne and others. You don't want

former advisers being the people casting their judgment on them. Oh,

we do. Do you think it is right that Ed Miliband stepped down after the

election and left a vacuum stop to you think you should have stuck

around? Looking at it as a human being, asking someone to go back

into the House of Commons to do Prime Minister's Questions after

eight general election defeat is asking a lot. You were apparently

the man who came up with the idea of the Ed Stone and we would like to

give it away as a Daily Politics prize. Where is it? The honest

answer to your question is, I have absolutely no idea, which is

probably in my interests and your interests and stop was a your idea?

I'd take responsibility for anything good or bad ... Was it your idea?

What did you think of it? I can't tell you where the Ed Stone is but I

can tell you that we will not be going into stone masonry it any time

in the next few years. What gave you the idea? Lots of ideas in the heat

of politics come and go. You and I should be thinking that we did a big

service to British Telecom by providing that level of fun and

amusement for a considerable period of time. We put you through the

ringer! Diane, the Parliamentary Labour Party have elected a series

of chairs and they are all what we might call moderates in the party -

Tristram Hunt, Caroline Flint, Stephen Timms stop it has been

described as the Shadow shadow cabinet. What do you say? They are

great men and women and those of us in the shadow cabinet look forward

to working with them closely. Why is your nose getting longer? I didn't

notice that! Very soon. Thank you, gentlemen.

The Stop the War Coalition has been accused of not allowing Syrians to

speak during a panel discussion about Syria.

It was chaired by our very own Diane Abbott.

The Stop the War Coalition has been criticised for allowing no Syrians

on a panel and for reportedly not allowing Syrian activists to speak

from the floor. Let's get a flavour of some of the rather heated

exchanges. You're not even letting Syrians

speak! You invite people because they are socialists. You don't even

let them speak. You have them on your platform and then you lecture

us? Let me try... You told me I would speak and you lied. Police?

You are getting coppers for us now? That is so radical. You cannot

exclude Syrians who are Democrats. Some of you will recognise Peter

Tatchell making his point at the end of that little clip.

Joining us now is Muzna who is from the Syria Solidarity Movement.

She was at that meeting on Monday night.

Talking about Syria, what to do about Syria, and why were there no

Syrians on the panel? I chaired the meeting first off I didn't determine

the panel. But I did call is Syrian speaker but as you can see, it was a

tricky meeting to chair. I will come on to that in a second. If it had

been up to you, would you have put Syrians on the panel? If it had been

up to me, we would have had a wide-ranging panel. Why did you

chair it? Because I feel very strongly that people need to hear

the case. I have a long-standing commitment on that. But not strongly

enough that you have to hear from Syrians? I called a Syrians. But on

the panel. That was a matter. The war. You need to talk to them. I

can't tell who was Syrian and who wasn't but we had Crispin Blunt who

came... He is not Syrian. He came outspoken because he had to leave, I

called speakers after he had spoken in the first speaker I called was a

Syrian. The Syrians were called from the floor, or were they? I am the

first Syrian woman who was called and I was only called because one of

the audience pointed at me to be allowed to speak. And then I was

interrupted and then other Syrians were not allowed to speak and we

were obviously we were. We were at the back, we were shouting, we were

waving, doing whatever we can to get noticed. This is about Syria and

Syrians' voices should be there. Did Diane give you a fair hearing or

not? No and this is traditional for the Stop the War Coalition. They

don't want to listen to Syrians. If they listened to Syrians, they would

have much better information to make decisions but they have this the

re-about nonintervention and they want to apply it without

information. If they listened to Syrians and did their homework on

what is happening on the ground and what we really want, they would have

a different position but they are not even doing that. What Syrians in

the UK want is the protection of civilians. This is what we want.

This is what we advocate and we are not asking for imperial powers to

come and occupy our country. We want a stop to the killing and that's not

going to happen by political talks. We had years and years of political

talks that are producing nothing. We all want an end to the killing.

When the House of Commons produce add report after that meeting, that

sets out where we all want to stop the killing, the UK coming and

bombing Syria in current circumstances will not save lives.

I'm not clear that's what you're asking for, is it? The major

problem... Are you, or not? They were debating bombing ISIS, whether

we wanted to say of it ISIS. The cancer is the dictatorship. I was

looking at reports from this stop of the war meeting. Andrew Murray's

quite a big figure in stop of the war. He was a chair or still is? I'm

not sure. It was about stopping the -- it was not about stopping the war

at all... It's about helping as sad win the war. That's what it was

about. I don't recognise that description. That's what Andrew

Murray called for. He wanted as sad to defeat ISIS -- Asad. I was on the

Murray called for. He wanted as sad frontbench calling not for bombing

Syria two years ago. Am I wrong? did a lot of the stop the war

people, did they asad to attack eyes skis? They want to make it

legitimate again. ISIS is like this big tool throwing sands in the eyes

so you don't see the real problem which is Asad. I don't know a single

Labour MP that wants legitimise Asad. Siren will never accept Asad

if remains in power. The Syrian people want a free country, a

democratic country. We deserve that. The problem is that Stop the War

Coalition is very active on refugee cause. Very active on Palestine, on

Iraq. But when it comes to Syria, they ethically fail. Are we not

worthy until we drown on your shores? One doesn't have to agree or

disagree but would it not have been a rather useful Stop the War

Coalition event to have heard all that at the event you chaired? She

hasn't got quite to the point. What's the answer to me question?

Would it not have been useful to have heard that? The event was about

the arguments against military intervention. You want to argue for

military intervention. You're perfectly entitled to do that. The

event was to support Asad. No. It was. You are shifting the discourse.

That wasn't the title. It could be named anything. What happened really

is you shifted the discourse from arguing to stop Asad from killing

civilians to stop ISIS and make us legitimate again. Asad kill seven

times more civilians than ISIS. This week, I want to tell you what do you

want to say to people there? They want protection. Why would you not,

Stop the War Coalition of people who are pacifist, you don't want to go

to war and throw Britain's weight around, why would you not want

tolies Yoann to that? We do. You didn't. You stopped them speaking.

Did you call the police? No. The police were called? I don't know

about that. They were called. One of our members was escorted outside and

asked repeatedly to lead. Why did you do that? I wouldn't do that. A

radical politician like yourself, I'm not chairing this anymore, I'm

joining the protesters. I was not aware the police were called. I

didn't see the police. Let me say one thing, there is not a line from

me on the record or any Labour MP saying we want to rehabilitate Asad.

This is not about you, Diane. It is like giving people like money zoo a

voice. -- Munza. You get to finish. The Green Party MP asked to hear

from Syrians. You didn't allow it to happen. We were there, because we

wanted our voice to be heard. It is veryrespect to discuss our country

and not to let Syrians speak. I hope you feel the Daily Politics allowed

you to have your voice:. The Transport Secretary has been updated

Parliament on the situation in Sinai and the decision to cancel nights.

The decisions we made were based on the review of all the information

available to us. Some is sensitive. I cannot go into detail on that

information. The House can be assured we've taken this decision on

the basis of the safety of British citizens. There are two stages to

this process. We are wokking with the airlines to put in place a

short-term measure. This could include different arrangements for

handling luggage. Beyond that, we are working with the Egyptians and

airlines to put in place long-term sustainable measures to ensure our

flights remain safe. We very much Pope it will be possible to declare

it is safe to fly to the resort and resume normal flight operations in

due course. But we don't know quite when. That was Patrick McLoughlin in

the House of Commons as the Transport Secretary.

One side effect of the rise of Corbynmania has been

a huge upsurge of interest in Marxist and left-wing literature.

A number of leading stores belonging to the UK's Alliance of

Radical Booksellers said that sales were up and new customers want to

read about the Labour Party history, as well as about socialist,

If books are weapons, then these guys are big time arms dealers.

Bookmarks in London is the UK's biggest socialist bookshop.

Sales are up 20% since Jeremy Corbyn became Labour Leader.

But they reckon it's not just down to him.

I think Jeremy Corbyn's articulated a set of views

and politics that lots of people have wanted expressed.

I think they have been there for a very long time and there's been

Since he's given them that expression, people feel a lot

Noam Chomsky's polemic about Palestine is flying off the shelves.

So too is the book by former Greek finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis.

Channel 4 News Economics Editor Paul Mason is

selling well and wait till you hear about Das Capital by Karl Marx.

We've sold more copies of Capital in the last month-and-a-half than

I think a whole wide range of people.

A lot of students are buying it, trying to engage with his ideas.

But I think lots of ordinary people as well that are encountering a

But, what three titles does a self-respecting Corbynista need

About the role of tax, why some people should pay more

because they can and the role of tax in creating a fairer society.

Next one is The Establishment by Owen Jones.

Essentially talking about people at the top of society and how they

run society for their own benefits at the expense of everyone else.

Finally, a big issue at the moment, NHS For Sale.

It is a big issue and people care a lot

This book talks about the privatisation that's happening

And if all that sounds a bit heavy, don't worry, there's a

Jeremy Corbyn colouring book coming out just in time for Christmas!

That's solved your Christmas present for me. It has. Jeffrey Archer, have

you been swept up in Marxist literature. When you rang me

yesterday I thought it was nothing less than my duty to check next

week's bestseller list in hard back. Number one is When You're Dead,

You're Dead. Number four is Binge. He doesn't drink. That can't be him.

Number 8 is Leading. That's Alex Ferguson. Number 17 is Open The

Cage, that's Paul O'Grady. And 47 is Absolutely Pandemonium. The Brian

Blessed autobiography. None of those are leading left books. That's the

top 50. Let's stick with the theme. You haven't picked up your old copy

of Das Capital and had a look? It is a good thing. Anyone going into

bookshops to buy box, I'm all in favour of that. We've seen many

examples, JK Rowling is a classic, out came the great books all in a

row for children. It was the grown-ups who benefitted later.

They've gone on to read other books. She got people into books. So, if Mr

Jeremy Corbyn's getting people into bookshops, that's wonderful. Diane,

have you copies of these Marxist books? I read most of them years

ago. On my Kindle is a book books? I read most of them years

Melvin brag NOW now is the time. Do you agree with that? I can't confess

to have read Melvin brag's latest book so not in a position so

comment. Has Jeremy Corbyn's election interested people? I was

among those and said it publicly, I felt he was bound to win. When the

people were rushing out to pay ?3 to join the Labour Party to get a vote,

they weren't rushing out for Andy Burnham. I worked it out pretty

quickly they were rushing out for Jeremy Corbyn. I said publicly he's

going to win and win easily. It doesn't surprise me. I also think

he'll survive for a very long time. That will be the subject of many

discussions on the Daily Politics over the next fee years. I'm sure

die in ya will be part of some of those. We revisited some of your

books to see if they could find a place in this up surge. First

Amongst Equals And the Labour man wins and become Prime Minister. You

were ahead of your times, it seems. Which books were popular during the

Thatcher years? During the Thatcher Which books were popular during the

years. In terms of political books on the right. Did they

years. In terms of political books upsurge? The big political

years. In terms of political books didn't have an upsurge in that time.

years. In terms of political books The West Wing was a triumph. When

that that start? 15 or 0 -- 20 years ago. So was House Of Cards. Lord

that that start? 15 or 0 -- 20 years Dobbs book. Brilliant. One of the

books to read Dobbs book. Brilliant. One of the

Miliband. The other is Dobbs book. Brilliant. One of the

unexpectedly becomes a leader of his party and is removed by conspiracy.

unexpectedly becomes a leader of his Let's get quickly to the Jeremy

Corbyn colouring book. Are you going do get it? Will it be on your

Corbyn colouring book. Are you going Christmas list? I'm not a colouring

book person. Shouldn't you be? Christmas list? I'm not a colouring

all the rage. Will you get one? No, I think I'm more likely to get yum

one When You're Dead, You're Dead. I think I'm more likely to get yum

Not a very uplifting title. Thank you very much.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

I'll be on BBC One tonight with Michael Portillo, Alan Johnson,

And I will be here again in the chair at noon tomorrow with all the