05/11/2015 Daily Politics


05/11/2015

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Diane Abbott to discuss the latest news from Egypt after Britain suspends flights to Sharm el-Sheikh amid security fears.


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After the UK suspends flights to and from Sharm el-Sheikh over

:00:40.:00:43.

security fears, the Government says it's doing all

:00:44.:00:45.

Thousands of British holiday makers are stuck in the Egyptian resort

:00:46.:00:50.

following fresh fears over the cause of the Russian airline disaster.

:00:51.:00:58.

There is a growing British and American belief that the airliner

:00:59.:01:00.

was blown up mid air. The Government says there is

:01:01.:01:02.

a significant possibility that the crash was caused

:01:03.:01:05.

by an explosive device. As President Sisi

:01:06.:01:07.

of Egypt arrives in the UK for an important visit, the crisis in

:01:08.:01:16.

Sharm el Sheikh is a major diplomatic

:01:17.:01:19.

headache for the Government. Tax credits -

:01:20.:01:20.

is it time for a complete rethink? George Osborne is urged to scrap any

:01:21.:01:24.

cuts to tax credits altogether. And do you know your Das Capital

:01:25.:01:27.

from your Communist Manifesto? We report on the surging demand

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for radical left-wing literature. I'd better put my copy of the

:01:32.:01:47.

commonest manifesto on eBay! We might get as much as for a Daily

:01:48.:01:49.

Politics mug. All that in the next hour -

:01:50.:01:51.

and with us for the whole of the programme today, the Shadow

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Secretary of State for International The biggest title I've ever had to

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introduce you with! Five days on from the Russian

:01:58.:02:01.

airline disaster over Egypt, which killed all 224 people on board,

:02:02.:02:04.

Britain has suspended flights to and from the resort of Sharm el-Sheikh,

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from where the plane had departed. It was en route to St Petersberg and

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was a charter holiday flight for holiday-makers.

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The Government increasingly seems to think it was a terrorist attack.

:02:22.:02:23.

David Cameron has today chaired another meeting of the Government's

:02:24.:02:26.

emergency committee, Cobra, and we're joined now from Whitehall

:02:27.:02:28.

Norman, I know there's a lot of demonstrations going on, with

:02:29.:02:33.

Egyptians and so on. I hope they are leaving you alone. Although the

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government clearly doesn't yet know for sure, it seems that the British

:02:38.:02:43.

and the Americans are moving towards the conclusion that it was a bomb.

:02:44.:02:49.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that certainly the British government

:02:50.:02:54.

believes this was an ISO attack. When the Foreign Secretary, Philip

:02:55.:02:58.

Hammond, was asked directly, was this an Isis bomb, he said, "that

:02:59.:03:06.

supposition is a possibility". Strip away the diplomatic niceties and

:03:07.:03:08.

that basically means yes, we think so. There are lots of different

:03:09.:03:14.

affiliated groups to Isis but that clearly is the thinking in British

:03:15.:03:17.

government circles and the suggestion seems to be that this is

:03:18.:03:22.

a result of intelligence which came to Britain independently of the

:03:23.:03:29.

Russian investigation into the crash site. It is not all clear how much

:03:30.:03:32.

information has actually been forthcoming from the Russians accept

:03:33.:03:37.

that one side, the British government yesterday became

:03:38.:03:39.

absolutely clear that they to move and move very quickly. Let me tell

:03:40.:03:45.

you this. The emergency Cobra meeting has actually just finished.

:03:46.:03:51.

The Prime Minister has said a few words. He is flagging up that

:03:52.:03:54.

getting the British holiday-makers home could take "sometime". That

:03:55.:04:00.

would fit in with everything else that we've been hearing this

:04:01.:04:04.

morning. Philip Hammond saying, "we will do everything we can to make

:04:05.:04:08.

sure Sharm el-Sheikh airport is safe, but that is regardless of the

:04:09.:04:11.

inconvenience, regardless of the delays, regardless of the time

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endeavoured it takes". I take that to mean that people should not

:04:17.:04:20.

expect that just because flights are likely to begin again tomorrow that

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they are going to be able to hop on a plane tomorrow. It seems that it

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could take quite a bit of time to get people home. There have also

:04:28.:04:32.

been suggestions that Hercules RAF planes could be on stand-by to take

:04:33.:04:35.

people home. That isn't going to be much of an answer because they only

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carry around 100 people. The last factor which is adding to the

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likelihood of the delay is the suggestion that other countries may

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be poised to follow the British examples. The Dutch have already

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followed our example. Philip Hammond this morning said he expected more

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to do the same. When you put that together, the situation at Sharm

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el-Sheikh airport seems to me to be one that will be very slow,

:05:00.:05:03.

protracted and difficult and if you are a holiday-maker there, I think

:05:04.:05:06.

you will have to brace yourself for some considerable delays. That's

:05:07.:05:11.

interesting. Tell me this, coming back to the diplomacy. Never mind

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the Russians, the Egyptians have their own reasons for not wanting

:05:16.:05:19.

this to be a terrorist attack. They are highly dependent on tourism,

:05:20.:05:21.

particularly in places like Sharm el-Sheikh. We suspended the

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flights, in line but it is a bomb, but how will this affect the visit

:05:28.:05:32.

of the Egyptian president and influence what Mr Cameron hopes to

:05:33.:05:36.

get out of this meeting? -- in plying it is a bomb. There is no

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doubt that from my colleagues who were spoken to senior figures from

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the Egyptian government, they are steaming furious at the fact the

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British government appears to have pretty much acted and then told the

:05:48.:05:51.

Egyptian government what we were doing but the view in Downing Street

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was that the pressure was such, planes were about to take off,

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decisions had to be made. They couldn't staff around with all the

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diplomatic niceties for top they had to act then. But if you're an

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Egyptian, you are thinking, what is going on? This is our airport, this

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is a potential body blow to our economy, you don't have the courtesy

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to tell us what is going on. Inevitably, relations are going to

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be bruised, particularly when part of this visit wasn't just about

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security and the emerging threat from Isis in North Africa but was

:06:22.:06:26.

also about trying to build better economic links. If tourism goes down

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the Suwanee in Egypt as a result of this, that is going to be a fairly

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significant body blow to economic relations. Thank you very much for

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that. Good of you to update us and mark our card. The British and the

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Americans set the standards on global international flights and I

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think it is clear other countries will follow. The Irish and the Dutch

:06:48.:06:53.

have done, as Norman said. Norman was talking about the impact on to

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wrist and travel companies. And to get a sense of what this all

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means for British tourists and travel companies, we're joined now

:07:00.:07:02.

by Sean Tipton of the Association The Foreign Secretary has said that

:07:03.:07:09.

flights won't be resumed until the situation is safe. That could be

:07:10.:07:14.

days. Normal business may not resume tomorrow at all. It may be the

:07:15.:07:19.

weekend. It may well be. We're in the hands of the governments and the

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security experts who flown out from the UK to make sure that people can

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fly safely. I certainly heard Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary,

:07:28.:07:30.

saying this morning that he was quite optimistic that flights could

:07:31.:07:34.

resume tomorrow so that's a good sign. I want to stress that the

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advice from the foreign office is that they are advising against all

:07:38.:07:41.

but essential travel to and from Sharm el-Sheikh airport. That is

:07:42.:07:44.

important because that is how you are going to get home but they are

:07:45.:07:47.

not saying that about the resort itself. We have around 9000

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customers on package holidays, many of whom haven't been there terribly

:07:52.:07:55.

long and if they were due to be there for two weeks, they will be

:07:56.:08:00.

continuing with their holidays. We are not being asked to get people

:08:01.:08:03.

out of the resort as quickly as possible. They will come back in

:08:04.:08:06.

normal way. So I say for the vast majority of passengers who are there

:08:07.:08:09.

now, they will continue with their holidays and come back on their

:08:10.:08:14.

originally scheduled flights. The issue will be for people who were

:08:15.:08:18.

due to travel yesterday or until the government is happy that the

:08:19.:08:20.

security situation has improved at Sharm el-Sheikh airport. If they are

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on packages, they will almost certainly an all-inclusive package

:08:28.:08:30.

and our members will simply let them stay in hotels and if there are any

:08:31.:08:34.

extra bills, them to us. A lot of people may have travelled

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independently and flown out with various airlines who have made their

:08:39.:08:42.

own arrangements for accommodation. They are in a slightly different

:08:43.:08:47.

situation. The airlines will accept bills for reasonable expenses but

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they may have to pay that themselves and then take it up with the airline

:08:52.:08:54.

when they get back to the UK. We have to end it there. Diane, we have

:08:55.:09:05.

stopped all flights because we think there is a significant possibility

:09:06.:09:09.

that ISDN and the plane. I haven't seen the information that government

:09:10.:09:13.

ministers have seen but you have to accept that they have to

:09:14.:09:16.

ministers have seen but you have to lives of British holiday-makers

:09:17.:09:18.

first. Clearly it is disastrous for the Egyptian economy but in the

:09:19.:09:20.

end, that is not their responsibility. The British

:09:21.:09:25.

government have gone out on a limb. There has been some surprise from

:09:26.:09:28.

aviation experts who have expressed intrigue stop

:09:29.:09:30.

aviation experts who have expressed word to say

:09:31.:09:33.

aviation experts who have expressed decision to take the action that the

:09:34.:09:36.

Egyptians are obvious the very upset about?

:09:37.:09:40.

Egyptians are obvious the very upset Hammond announcer? My understanding

:09:41.:09:42.

is that they Hammond announcer? My understanding

:09:43.:09:45.

of the United States. In such a situation, you have to be prepared

:09:46.:09:48.

to accept situation, you have to be prepared

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information you haven't seen and it is people's lives. The Americans

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will have satellite surveillance is people's lives. The Americans

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can't second-guess ministers who have seen security intelligence.

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As Norman mentioned, the Prime Minister convened a meeting of

:10:07.:10:10.

Cobra, the emergency Cabinet committee, this morning, to discuss

:10:11.:10:14.

the situation in Egypt post of the Russian disaster and

:10:15.:10:17.

the situation in Egypt post of the Minister had a few words to say as

:10:18.:10:20.

he left the Cobra meeting. Let's hear what it was. First of all, I

:10:21.:10:25.

have every sympathy for the Egyptians because, of course,

:10:26.:10:28.

tourism is vitally important to the economy. I want to restore our links

:10:29.:10:34.

and our flights with Egypt as soon is is safe and is possible but I

:10:35.:10:39.

have to put the safety of British people first. If that Russian

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airliner was brought down by a terrorist bomb, that does have very

:10:46.:10:49.

real implications and it means it is absolutely essential that we see

:10:50.:10:53.

that improvement of security at Sharm el-Sheikh airport, and that's

:10:54.:10:55.

what I'll be discussing with the Egyptians today and we'll be working

:10:56.:10:59.

round-the-clock with our experts to help put that in place. The Prime

:11:00.:11:04.

Minister speaking in the Cabinet room after the emergency meeting of

:11:05.:11:05.

Cobra. As we've been hearing,

:11:06.:11:07.

the events of the last few hours have overshadowed Egyptian President

:11:08.:11:10.

Sisi's visit to the UK. David Cameron will meet Mr Sisi this

:11:11.:11:12.

afternoon, although the President's human rights record has made many

:11:13.:11:15.

uneasy about the visit. President Sisi arrived in the UK

:11:16.:11:17.

last night David Cameron argues it's

:11:18.:11:23.

in Britain's interest to have a stable Egypt to help halt the

:11:24.:11:27.

spread of extremism in the region. The Egyptian leader led

:11:28.:11:32.

the army's overthrow of the democratically elected

:11:33.:11:34.

Muslim Brotherhood's Mohammed Morsi Since then, more than 1,000 people

:11:35.:11:37.

have been killed and 40,000 are believed to have been

:11:38.:11:46.

jailed in a crackdown on dissent. President Sisi has told

:11:47.:11:50.

the BBC that there is "a roadmap for real democracy in Egypt" and argues

:11:51.:11:53.

that the threat from militants means The problem is particularly acute in

:11:54.:11:58.

Egypt's Sinai region, which is also home to the heavily guarded and

:11:59.:12:04.

lucrative resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, where the plane crashed and where

:12:05.:12:09.

the UK has suspended flights. David Cameron may be willing to help

:12:10.:12:14.

President Sisi, with reports this morning that he will announce new

:12:15.:12:17.

curbs on Muslim Brotherhood activity in the UK - although how tough they

:12:18.:12:21.

will be remains to be seen. Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday that

:12:22.:12:26.

the Prime Minister's invitation to the Egyptian President showed

:12:27.:12:29.

"contempt for human and democratic rights and threatens,

:12:30.:12:32.

rather than protects, Speaking in the Commons a short

:12:33.:12:35.

while ago, the Foreign Office Minister Tobias Ellwood said David

:12:36.:12:43.

Cameron would be bringing up human It is no secret that we want to see

:12:44.:12:46.

more political progress in Egypt, better protection of Egyptians'

:12:47.:12:52.

constitutional rights, freedom of expression, more space

:12:53.:12:56.

for NGOs and civil society. These rights

:12:57.:13:02.

and freedoms are essential But megaphone diplomacy is not

:13:03.:13:04.

the way to succeed in putting Instead, we need to treat each other

:13:05.:13:12.

as real partners and have frank The visit provides an opportunity

:13:13.:13:19.

for the Prime Minister to emphasise his desire to see more

:13:20.:13:26.

political progress in Egypt. Joining me now is the

:13:27.:13:37.

Conservative MP and former defence minister Gerald

:13:38.:13:39.

Howarth - he now chairs the All And Tim Marshall, who is the former

:13:40.:13:42.

Foreign Affairs editor of Sky News. Welcome to you both. Let me start

:13:43.:13:57.

with some basics. Tim, how bad is the human rights situation in Egypt?

:13:58.:14:03.

As bad as it has ever been under all the previous leaders, including

:14:04.:14:08.

President Morsi who was overthrown. There is a continuum. Under the

:14:09.:14:12.

current president, the judiciary has been co-opted. There is massive

:14:13.:14:17.

pressure on journalists to toe the party line, and torture remains

:14:18.:14:23.

routine. It is no better or worse than it was before the Miss named

:14:24.:14:28.

Arab Spring. So it is like the days under Mubarak? A slight difference

:14:29.:14:36.

is that although they had the quasi-democracy under Mubarak where

:14:37.:14:38.

they pretended to count the votes, they really did have a vote for this

:14:39.:14:42.

guy and 96% voted for this president. Do we believe that? More

:14:43.:14:49.

or less. You can massage it a bit but the clear majority, even if it

:14:50.:14:53.

wasn't 96%, voted for him because after the turmoil of 2012-14, they

:14:54.:14:58.

wanted the strongman back and they voted for the strongman and they've

:14:59.:15:01.

got the strong man and he's, you could say, being strong. It is as it

:15:02.:15:07.

was. I take it that the government has been further encouraged, or

:15:08.:15:13.

facilitated, in its clamp-down by this developing terrorist situation

:15:14.:15:17.

in the northern Sinai. Could you explain how these... First of all,

:15:18.:15:22.

how bad it is in the Sinai and how it is linked to the domestic

:15:23.:15:23.

situation? When the Muslim Brotherhood was

:15:24.:15:33.

overthrown with popular support, it was suppressed and put completely

:15:34.:15:36.

underground. Therefore large sections of it have turned to

:15:37.:15:41.

terror. There's a ready made terrorist organisation already

:15:42.:15:44.

there. They've born affinity with Islamic State. They are called Sinai

:15:45.:15:50.

Province. The worst of it is in north Sinai. There's at least 1,500

:15:51.:15:55.

fighters who've signed allegiance to IS. Takes you to potential attack on

:15:56.:16:01.

Russia and on tourism. You collapse tourism and you really, really

:16:02.:16:06.

damage Egypt into that vacuum you try and step. It has spread from

:16:07.:16:10.

northern Sinai into some of the major cities. But very sporadically.

:16:11.:16:17.

Most is in northern Sinai. There you've had a Croatian hostage

:16:18.:16:21.

beheaded. Numerous attacks on army checkpoints and one very serious

:16:22.:16:27.

attack this year where 13 different positions were attacked

:16:28.:16:30.

simultaneously. That takes training. It is a proper insurgery in northern

:16:31.:16:34.

Sinai. Thank you. We have to deal with lots of Governments. That's

:16:35.:16:40.

what being in Government means. From what we hear from Tim and the

:16:41.:16:45.

crackdown taken in Egypt, shouldn't we be supping with a long spoon?

:16:46.:16:51.

We've the the President of the people's republic of China here. We

:16:52.:16:55.

know what their record on human rights and cyber attack on this

:16:56.:17:00.

country and around the world. It is entirely right that the British

:17:01.:17:03.

Government's invited President Sisi to come here. Egypt is a very

:17:04.:17:07.

important component in regional stability. Egypt has made a big

:17:08.:17:12.

contribution into trying to resolve the Arab/Israeli problem. A

:17:13.:17:15.

continuing problem. They face a real threat as Tim outlined. We face the

:17:16.:17:18.

same threat. They are trying to deal with it. I think the UK is extremely

:17:19.:17:23.

well placed to #234e7 in counter-terrorism. We should be

:17:24.:17:28.

helping President Sisi? Absolutely. Really? It is clear, of course, the

:17:29.:17:32.

human rights issue is important. The Prime Minister must deal with it.

:17:33.:17:36.

Would we have liked people telling us how to deal with Northern Ireland

:17:37.:17:39.

when we had interment without trial and issues like that? We faced...

:17:40.:17:46.

Beam did tell us. Not many from outside except perhaps the United

:17:47.:17:50.

States and those in Chicago, I think, had a voice. I want to be

:17:51.:17:57.

clear, I want to bring Diane in, it is not just enough to sup with a

:17:58.:18:02.

long spoon. You think we should be an ally of President Sisi? We

:18:03.:18:08.

should. If Egypt goes down, this is the most populist country. They have

:18:09.:18:13.

a population of 90 million. The next is Saudia Arabia with a third of

:18:14.:18:17.

that. They have a millennia of experience and, as a cultural centre

:18:18.:18:22.

in the middle East, they're very influential. Diane Abbott, we don't

:18:23.:18:29.

need to like this Government. We often don't get to choose what

:18:30.:18:34.

Governments we like and don't like. Egypt, it's probably the most

:18:35.:18:38.

important Arab country in the middle east, the one the rest of the Middle

:18:39.:18:44.

East looks to for culture. We have to deal with it? Yes, biyou think it

:18:45.:18:50.

was wrong to issue this invitation. It has been issued, he's coming now.

:18:51.:18:55.

As well as discussing what's happening in Sharm el-Sheikh and the

:18:56.:18:57.

important political considerations we have to have a dialogue about

:18:58.:19:03.

human rights? We should be speaking to him? We should not have issued

:19:04.:19:08.

the inas a result ace but if we are to solve some of the problems in the

:19:09.:19:13.

region we have to talk to people we may not want to. Including President

:19:14.:19:24.

Sisi? Mr Corbyn, your leader, argued that President Sisi's presence in

:19:25.:19:27.

the UK threatened our national security. Why? The leader of the

:19:28.:19:32.

Labour Party was post-innovatation and so was I. Why does it threaten

:19:33.:19:37.

our national security? I think this is a tightrope. It could be that be

:19:38.:19:44.

being seen to support a sleeteder with such a horrible record on human

:19:45.:19:50.

rights, we create instability. It's a judgment. That's right but that

:19:51.:19:55.

would be a case for not talking to him at all. Not a matter of timing.

:19:56.:20:01.

If he's a threat to our national security we shouldn't be talking to

:20:02.:20:05.

him at all by Mr Corbyn's lights. Not just the timing's unfortunate.

:20:06.:20:13.

The argument about these official invitations whether China or

:20:14.:20:17.

President Sisi, offering that level of acknowledge 789, it is almost

:20:18.:20:20.

like you're rubber-stamping their human rights atrocities. But we're

:20:21.:20:25.

talking about human rights. If he wasn't here we probably wouldn't be.

:20:26.:20:31.

Explain the logic Mr Corbyn doesn't want to talk to President Sisi

:20:32.:20:35.

because of his human rights record but has been happy to call

:20:36.:20:42.

Hezbollah, Hamas the IRA friends. Look at their human rights record. I

:20:43.:20:47.

don't think anyone is literally saying we shouldn't talk to

:20:48.:20:51.

President Sisi. Your leader said he's a threat to national security.

:20:52.:20:56.

Do we award him the honour of this visit. We will all, including

:20:57.:21:03.

Gerald, have to talk to people we don't particularly like. The they

:21:04.:21:09.

have regular hangings of homosexuals. Been throwing people

:21:10.:21:14.

off buildings. Should we not talk to them? None of the problems in

:21:15.:21:18.

off buildings. Should we not talk to region will be solved without

:21:19.:21:21.

off buildings. Should we not talk to talking to some major regional

:21:22.:21:26.

players. Doesn't that include Egypt? Like Egypt, like Iran. In particular

:21:27.:21:34.

in relation to human rights we have to talk to people. Diane made the

:21:35.:21:37.

cases why we should to talk to people. Diane made the

:21:38.:21:40.

sorry your to talk to people. Diane made the

:21:41.:21:44.

beige as you Diane. Our about this invitation. Not that at

:21:45.:21:50.

no point or place... It is only about timing? It's about this

:21:51.:21:52.

invitation. about timing? It's about this

:21:53.:21:55.

out to be for the ewe about timing? It's about this

:21:56.:22:01.

of what happened with this plane crash in Sharm el-Sheikh? There's a

:22:02.:22:07.

serious cape abimity in the Sinai desert with terrorists linked to the

:22:08.:22:08.

people we're fighting with our desert with terrorists linked to the

:22:09.:22:12.

bombing raids in Iraq and are active in Syria? It seems to

:22:13.:22:16.

bombing raids in Iraq and are active putting the human rights record

:22:17.:22:20.

aside, I understand that, now's not a bad time to take to the Egyptian

:22:21.:22:25.

president. We're going to have to communicate with him. At every

:22:26.:22:30.

level. There are two extra elements I'd like to put in. After the

:22:31.:22:35.

misnamed Arab Spring we've seen what happens when we get dragged in and

:22:36.:22:40.

misnamed Arab Spring we've seen what don't deal with people. We got

:22:41.:22:42.

kicked out of Afghanistan, Iraq similar. The current Government

:22:43.:22:46.

kicked out of Afghanistan, Iraq us involved in Libya. Said

:22:47.:22:48.

kicked out of Afghanistan, Iraq stand shoulder to shoulder with the

:22:49.:22:53.

Libyan people and walked away. This is the guy who lives next to Libya.

:22:54.:22:58.

Do we really not want to talk to him about the Libyan situation and other

:22:59.:23:02.

things? Can you imagine if Egypt went the same way as these other

:23:03.:23:08.

countries? There are Coptic Christians there, about 1 million of

:23:09.:23:13.

them. If Egypt, God forbid, went down that road, those 12 million

:23:14.:23:16.

Christians would be in a serious amount of trouble. Run the risk of

:23:17.:23:20.

being massacred. Do you want to engage with this guy and find out

:23:21.:23:24.

what the hell is going on inside Egypt or just say, I'm not talking

:23:25.:23:30.

to you. Why, I know you need to get away... We have a statement from the

:23:31.:23:36.

secretary for transport. Is it seemly for Mr David Cameron to

:23:37.:23:42.

announce a crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood while the President's

:23:43.:23:45.

here? Is that really the right thing to do. Isn't that playing to the

:23:46.:23:50.

gallery? There's been a review done of the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK.

:23:51.:23:55.

That review is about to be produced. I'm sure his visit is a good

:23:56.:23:59.

opportunity to do that. He took over from President Morsi. The idea

:24:00.:24:04.

President Morsi was is saint, he was not. He suspended the constitution.

:24:05.:24:10.

I don't think anyone said he was a saint. Tim set out the history of

:24:11.:24:15.

Egypt. Not a happy history. Here's an opportunity for the UK, which

:24:16.:24:20.

knows the region, everybody tells me when I go as a minister to visit the

:24:21.:24:25.

region, they say, we don't expect the Americans to understand. We

:24:26.:24:28.

expect you to. You've been here for 200 years. Let's seize the

:24:29.:24:32.

opportunity for Britain to influence Egypt for the good and help the

:24:33.:24:38.

region to boot. We Jo understood it so well that not one of our highly

:24:39.:24:44.

paid ambassadors predicted the Arab Spring. Thank you. Thank you.

:24:45.:24:48.

Well, with concerns that terrorist activity may have been involved

:24:49.:24:50.

in the downing of the Russian jet in Sinai, it was timely for MPs

:24:51.:24:53.

yesterday to discuss plans to give the security services greater powers

:24:54.:24:56.

to intercept the communications of internet users in the UK.

:24:57.:24:59.

The Home Secretary said the new Investigatory Powers Bill

:25:00.:25:02.

would allow officers to see a list of websites visited without needing

:25:03.:25:05.

a warrant, but that safeguards were in place to ensure the content

:25:06.:25:09.

of a person's browsing history was not immediately accessible.

:25:10.:25:11.

Here's a a quick recap of the debate.

:25:12.:25:23.

Mr Speaker, the legislation we are proposing today is unprecedented.

:25:24.:25:39.

It will provide unparalleled openness and transparency

:25:40.:25:41.

It will provide the strongest safeguards and world-leading

:25:42.:25:46.

oversight arrangements, and it will give the men and women of our

:25:47.:25:48.

security and intelligence agencies and our law enforcement agencies,

:25:49.:25:51.

who do so much to keep us safe and secure, the powers they need to

:25:52.:25:54.

This will place a double lock on the authorisation of our most

:25:55.:25:58.

Democratic accountability through the Secretary

:25:59.:26:02.

of State to ensure our intelligence agencies operate in the interests

:26:03.:26:05.

of the citizens of this country, and the public reassurance of

:26:06.:26:07.

The issues which this proposed legislation seeks to tackle go

:26:08.:26:12.

Any government will face a difficult task in balancing the

:26:13.:26:16.

security of the nation with privacy and liberties of individual citizens

:26:17.:26:19.

and as somebody who was in the Home Office on 7/7, I know that challenge

:26:20.:26:22.

We will examine carefully the detail of the draft bill

:26:23.:26:31.

and seek to improve the safeguards to build trust but having listened

:26:32.:26:34.

carefully to what the Home Secretary had to say today, I believe she has

:26:35.:26:37.

responded to legitimate concerns and broadly got that difficult

:26:38.:26:40.

Her last bill on this fraught but important subject hit

:26:41.:26:45.

the buffers but this bill is a much improved model,

:26:46.:26:49.

though I have the feeling that under the bonnet it still retains some

:26:50.:26:52.

even if I'm one of the few who do remain concerned, about the

:26:53.:27:02.

excessive powers which will be given to the security authorities in

:27:03.:27:06.

Diane abpot, do you agree with Andy Burnham Theresa May got it right

:27:07.:27:22.

this time? It is a much better bill. The main thing which makes it better

:27:23.:27:27.

is the involvement of judges. We'll subject it to scrutiny in committee.

:27:28.:27:30.

We'll see what comes out of that process. What are you still unhappy

:27:31.:27:36.

with? We're unhappy about whether these very sweeping powers are

:27:37.:27:41.

really necessary. I have to admit to the fact I have a slight element of

:27:42.:27:46.

bias. I was the subject of undercover policing in another life.

:27:47.:27:52.

The Labour Party as a whole takes these issues very seriously. Right,

:27:53.:27:56.

scrutiny but not voting against. You'll join the Shadow Cabinet to

:27:57.:28:01.

vote with Andy Burnham in favour? Scrutiny, if we feel it needs

:28:02.:28:05.

amending, we will amend it. We'll look at it line by line. You say

:28:06.:28:11.

there are sweeping powers. Theresa May says there are safeguards in

:28:12.:28:16.

place. Judges having authorisation in some cases. She says people can't

:28:17.:28:21.

access everyone's browsing history, just basic data. A modern equivalent

:28:22.:28:26.

of an itemised phone bill. Are you convinced by that? I am prepared. If

:28:27.:28:32.

officers want to mount more intrusive spying operations,

:28:33.:28:36.

including accessing the content of emails, they'll still need a warrant

:28:37.:28:39.

from the Home Secretary or another senior minister. Is that enough for

:28:40.:28:44.

you? That is important. But, in the past, it seems that scrutiny

:28:45.:28:51.

undercover activity went on without a proper warrant. Jeremy Corbyn has

:28:52.:28:57.

historically opposed any increases in powers. Said the existing powers

:28:58.:29:03.

were enough. What will he do now? We have a collective position as a

:29:04.:29:07.

party on this bill. Andy Burnham set it out. The key thing will be how we

:29:08.:29:13.

are able to amend the bill and what comes up under scrutiny. You've

:29:14.:29:18.

previously said, regarding the data retention and investigatory powers

:29:19.:29:21.

act, spooks convinced gullible leaders of all three parties to push

:29:22.:29:27.

through I will liberal legislation. Do you think think that's happening

:29:28.:29:33.

here still? Spooks did but the important thing about this ledge Is

:29:34.:29:37.

slayings is the judicial checks and balances which is what makes it

:29:38.:29:41.

different from the Liberal Democrat isolation we were presented before.

:29:42.:29:46.

Some of your MPs aren't convinced the privacy concerns have been taken

:29:47.:29:53.

on board enough. David Winnick is sceptical. A lot of us are but we

:29:54.:29:58.

are happy to be convinced as the bill goes through its stages.

:29:59.:30:05.

A big report has come out this morning. Inflation, which is 0% by

:30:06.:30:12.

the CPI measure this year, will stay below 1% until at least the second

:30:13.:30:16.

half of next year. It has extended the period of low inflation. It has

:30:17.:30:20.

cut growth for this year but only very marginally. It is also said,

:30:21.:30:26.

and this is a big development, that it is going to keep the quantitative

:30:27.:30:30.

easing, the electronic printing of money that I grow 375 billion - it

:30:31.:30:36.

will stay out there until inflation hits the bank's target of 2%. But as

:30:37.:30:42.

a major change our at least a loosening of our policy.

:30:43.:30:46.

The Government has promised to look again

:30:47.:30:47.

at its proposed cuts to tax credits after the proposal was defeated

:30:48.:30:50.

Here's what George Osborne had to say to the House of Commons

:30:51.:30:55.

I said I would listen and that's precisely what I intend to do.

:30:56.:30:59.

I believe we can achieve the same goal of reforming tax credits,

:31:00.:31:02.

saving the money we need to save to secure our economy, while at the

:31:03.:31:05.

That is what I intend to do at the Autumn Statement.

:31:06.:31:10.

I'm determined to deliver that lower welfare, higher wage economy that we

:31:11.:31:14.

were elected to deliver and the British people want to see.

:31:15.:31:19.

And we can welcome viewers in Scotland, who have been watching

:31:20.:31:30.

first ministers questions. Although he's been forced

:31:31.:31:32.

in to a U-turn of sorts, Mr Osborne says he is determined to push

:31:33.:31:35.

through with reform to tax credits. However, the Resolution Foundation,

:31:36.:31:38.

which deals with policy issues that affect those on low incomes,

:31:39.:31:40.

says the Chancellor should scrap his planned cuts to tax credits

:31:41.:31:42.

altogether and says Torsten Bell is the Director

:31:43.:31:45.

of the Resolution Foundation, and we're also joined by the

:31:46.:31:48.

Chief Executive of the Welcome to both of you. We've heard

:31:49.:31:59.

about weeks being made. Things are going to be done to mitigate cuts to

:32:00.:32:04.

tax credits. So how can you say that he should drop the idea altogether

:32:05.:32:07.

when we don't quite know what he is proposing? Your was the right, we

:32:08.:32:11.

don't know what he's proposing but the state of the debate we're now at

:32:12.:32:14.

is that we are at the stage where something must be done and we are

:32:15.:32:17.

looking at what the options are that Osborne has Ed Veal statement which

:32:18.:32:22.

is now only 20 days away. Our view is that fudge options, where they

:32:23.:32:28.

are tweaked a little, would deliver economically or politically for the

:32:29.:32:31.

Chancellor. He should look to reverse some of the changes and he

:32:32.:32:34.

can do that while maintaining his fiscal objectives. So you are saying

:32:35.:32:38.

there isn't money that can be spent that will make a dramatic enough

:32:39.:32:42.

change to tax credit cuts, or make the savings he once? Clearly there

:32:43.:32:47.

are things the Chancellor could do and we should welcome his raising of

:32:48.:32:50.

the new national minimum wage, which will benefit some people who boos

:32:51.:32:53.

from the tax credit changes but further increases to the minimum

:32:54.:32:58.

wage or tax cuts won't compensate them for losing tax credits. These

:32:59.:33:01.

are fundamentally different people. Five ways you've got of changing the

:33:02.:33:06.

system and offering an alternative. Why didn't the government come up

:33:07.:33:10.

with that? If they are so obvious and seem to be pain-free, why

:33:11.:33:12.

wouldn't the Chancellor have come up with them? Very few decisions in

:33:13.:33:18.

politics are trade free -- pain-free and they involve trade-offs. He will

:33:19.:33:25.

be looking to make trade-offs when -- on the 25th of December. You have

:33:26.:33:35.

an amount of pain borne by a small group of people and that will ease

:33:36.:33:40.

the pressure. Before we go onto exactly what you are proposing, do

:33:41.:33:44.

you accept that cuts to tax credits, morally, were the right thing to do?

:33:45.:33:48.

I certainly wouldn't have started from here and I think there are a

:33:49.:33:51.

lot of things the government should have been looking at before it

:33:52.:33:54.

looked at cutting these tax credits, not least the benefits received by

:33:55.:34:01.

pensioners. Inflation is running at no % this year. We've got pensions

:34:02.:34:07.

going up by 2.5%. That is utterly unsustainable and unaffordable and

:34:08.:34:09.

the government should be looking up that kind of thing. The fact that

:34:10.:34:12.

winter fuel payments are given to every pensioner, even millionaire

:34:13.:34:16.

pensioners, despite the fact that the government has rightly stopped

:34:17.:34:21.

giving child benefit to better off families. It is still giving winter

:34:22.:34:24.

flu payments to the richest pensioners. Ugly unjustifiable. --

:34:25.:34:33.

winter fuel payments. There are other things that should have been

:34:34.:34:36.

cut first but there are also other things the government needs to be

:34:37.:34:38.

looking at that it should be doing things the government needs to be

:34:39.:34:41.

itself to give people a better and more affordable cost of living. When

:34:42.:34:46.

forced and was working for Ed Miliband, Ed Miliband rightly talked

:34:47.:34:49.

about the cost of living crisis in this country. We've got to remember

:34:50.:34:51.

the this country. We've got to remember

:34:52.:34:57.

through taxes. The poorest in this country pay a huge amount for that

:34:58.:35:03.

is -- of their disposable income on VAT and fuel duty. Housing in this

:35:04.:35:07.

country is incredible expensive because planning restrictions

:35:08.:35:09.

resulting not of homes being built, which means rises are more expensive

:35:10.:35:14.

than they should be. There are things that government itself should

:35:15.:35:16.

be doing at the outset to improve the cost of living for everybody.

:35:17.:35:23.

Your suggestions? We are trying to say there are a range of ways the

:35:24.:35:26.

Chancellor can do this because they will all face different trade-offs.

:35:27.:35:29.

Even without raising any additional taxes, the Chancellor could reverse

:35:30.:35:33.

the most punitive parts of the tax credits, the cut to the income

:35:34.:35:36.

threshold, where you start to lose your tax credits when you're earning

:35:37.:35:41.

increases, and still deliver fiscal objectives by the end of this

:35:42.:35:45.

Parliament. Was it ever acceptable to have taxpayers and the government

:35:46.:35:49.

topping up people's income, just as a principle, with that bill now at

:35:50.:35:54.

?30 billion a year? At the time Gordon Brown brought them in, the

:35:55.:35:57.

alternative would have been to put up child benefit quite sharply and

:35:58.:36:03.

have a higher minimum wage, quite a distinctly higher minimum wage, and

:36:04.:36:07.

the judgment at the time was that that wasn't politically acceptable.

:36:08.:36:14.

Torsten is a boffin. Is that a compliment? He was Ed Miliband's

:36:15.:36:21.

boffin but the policy is clear. It is this government taking money off

:36:22.:36:27.

the strivers, exactly the working people whose support they need if

:36:28.:36:30.

they are going to become what George Osborne tried to post a few weeks

:36:31.:36:33.

ago they had become, the party of the workers. His tax credit strategy

:36:34.:36:39.

has blown his "we are the party of the workers" strategy out of the

:36:40.:36:43.

water. That's his political problem. Can I pick up something you said at

:36:44.:36:47.

the start of that question, which is the 30 million tax credit bill

:36:48.:36:50.

doesn't all go to working families. The majority of that goes to out of

:36:51.:36:55.

work families and is wrong to talk about that subsidising employers.

:36:56.:36:59.

There is no country in the world that doesn't provide a form of in

:37:00.:37:03.

work support so the idea of a black-and-white ideological... Once

:37:04.:37:07.

you're in work, the firm should pave everything for large families, that

:37:08.:37:10.

isn't a world that exists and is available to us. You would be

:37:11.:37:14.

talking about minimum wage is much higher than anywhere in the world.

:37:15.:37:18.

The Chancellor in the last parliament said that tax credits

:37:19.:37:21.

were serving three different objectives. Tackling child poverty,

:37:22.:37:24.

improving work incentives for those on low incomes but it is also

:37:25.:37:28.

providing some cash support for those on hiring comes and he did

:37:29.:37:34.

change that. There is an argument that that is a reasonable thing to

:37:35.:37:39.

do stopped -- higher incomes. He is now cutting into the core of the

:37:40.:37:45.

system, which is why we are getting large losses for working people. How

:37:46.:37:49.

much should somebody be working at the point where tax credits stop? I

:37:50.:37:54.

don't think it is for me to pluck a number out of the air but I think

:37:55.:37:58.

the government needs to look at what it is doing itself. It is making the

:37:59.:38:01.

cost of living more expensive for people. Moreover, the whole tax

:38:02.:38:05.

credit system is incredibly compensated to understand. We all

:38:06.:38:10.

remember a few weeks ago the woman on Question Time talking about her

:38:11.:38:16.

potential losses of tax credits. It emerged later she isn't going to

:38:17.:38:21.

lose out. It is the perception. The fact that you have the tax credits

:38:22.:38:26.

system and you have the tax system separated... We have said for some

:38:27.:38:30.

time that there would be an argument for introducing a negative income

:38:31.:38:33.

tax which would be administered and integrated inside the tax system so

:38:34.:38:37.

that you don't have the DWP and HMRC both playing with different pots of

:38:38.:38:44.

money... It is complicated but the truth is that hundreds of thousands

:38:45.:38:48.

of people - David Cameron still won't admit how many - are going to

:38:49.:38:54.

lose money. Real people, real lives. We will see what happens in the

:38:55.:38:57.

spending review and the Autumn Statement. But since Diane mentioned

:38:58.:39:01.

it, because we weren't going to mention it at all, she did say you

:39:02.:39:07.

were Miliband's director of policy. How do you think his successor is

:39:08.:39:12.

getting on? I worked for the Labour Party for five years and I'm really

:39:13.:39:15.

proud to have done that. I now work for a charity working for low and

:39:16.:39:18.

middle income families. That is different and we will be holding

:39:19.:39:22.

parties and policies across the spectrum into account. I'm not going

:39:23.:39:29.

to get into a commentary. The British public are going to do judge

:39:30.:39:34.

their views on Jeremy Corbyn, George Osborne and others. You don't want

:39:35.:39:38.

former advisers being the people casting their judgment on them. Oh,

:39:39.:39:43.

we do. Do you think it is right that Ed Miliband stepped down after the

:39:44.:39:46.

election and left a vacuum stop to you think you should have stuck

:39:47.:39:51.

around? Looking at it as a human being, asking someone to go back

:39:52.:39:54.

into the House of Commons to do Prime Minister's Questions after

:39:55.:39:57.

eight general election defeat is asking a lot. You were apparently

:39:58.:40:06.

the man who came up with the idea of the Ed Stone and we would like to

:40:07.:40:09.

give it away as a Daily Politics prize. Where is it? The honest

:40:10.:40:17.

answer to your question is, I have absolutely no idea, which is

:40:18.:40:19.

probably in my interests and your interests and stop was a your idea?

:40:20.:40:24.

I'd take responsibility for anything good or bad ... Was it your idea?

:40:25.:40:34.

What did you think of it? I can't tell you where the Ed Stone is but I

:40:35.:40:41.

can tell you that we will not be going into stone masonry it any time

:40:42.:40:44.

in the next few years. What gave you the idea? Lots of ideas in the heat

:40:45.:40:50.

of politics come and go. You and I should be thinking that we did a big

:40:51.:40:54.

service to British Telecom by providing that level of fun and

:40:55.:40:57.

amusement for a considerable period of time. We put you through the

:40:58.:41:03.

ringer! Diane, the Parliamentary Labour Party have elected a series

:41:04.:41:08.

of chairs and they are all what we might call moderates in the party -

:41:09.:41:14.

Tristram Hunt, Caroline Flint, Stephen Timms stop it has been

:41:15.:41:18.

described as the Shadow shadow cabinet. What do you say? They are

:41:19.:41:22.

great men and women and those of us in the shadow cabinet look forward

:41:23.:41:27.

to working with them closely. Why is your nose getting longer? I didn't

:41:28.:41:37.

notice that! Very soon. Thank you, gentlemen.

:41:38.:41:39.

The Stop the War Coalition has been accused of not allowing Syrians to

:41:40.:41:43.

speak during a panel discussion about Syria.

:41:44.:41:45.

It was chaired by our very own Diane Abbott.

:41:46.:41:54.

The Stop the War Coalition has been criticised for allowing no Syrians

:41:55.:42:00.

on a panel and for reportedly not allowing Syrian activists to speak

:42:01.:42:04.

from the floor. Let's get a flavour of some of the rather heated

:42:05.:42:05.

exchanges. You're not even letting Syrians

:42:06.:42:22.

speak! You invite people because they are socialists. You don't even

:42:23.:42:26.

let them speak. You have them on your platform and then you lecture

:42:27.:42:34.

us? Let me try... You told me I would speak and you lied. Police?

:42:35.:42:40.

You are getting coppers for us now? That is so radical. You cannot

:42:41.:42:51.

exclude Syrians who are Democrats. Some of you will recognise Peter

:42:52.:42:54.

Tatchell making his point at the end of that little clip.

:42:55.:42:56.

Joining us now is Muzna who is from the Syria Solidarity Movement.

:42:57.:42:59.

She was at that meeting on Monday night.

:43:00.:43:04.

Talking about Syria, what to do about Syria, and why were there no

:43:05.:43:10.

Syrians on the panel? I chaired the meeting first off I didn't determine

:43:11.:43:14.

the panel. But I did call is Syrian speaker but as you can see, it was a

:43:15.:43:19.

tricky meeting to chair. I will come on to that in a second. If it had

:43:20.:43:24.

been up to you, would you have put Syrians on the panel? If it had been

:43:25.:43:28.

up to me, we would have had a wide-ranging panel. Why did you

:43:29.:43:32.

chair it? Because I feel very strongly that people need to hear

:43:33.:43:37.

the case. I have a long-standing commitment on that. But not strongly

:43:38.:43:41.

enough that you have to hear from Syrians? I called a Syrians. But on

:43:42.:43:50.

the panel. That was a matter. The war. You need to talk to them. I

:43:51.:43:57.

can't tell who was Syrian and who wasn't but we had Crispin Blunt who

:43:58.:44:04.

came... He is not Syrian. He came outspoken because he had to leave, I

:44:05.:44:07.

called speakers after he had spoken in the first speaker I called was a

:44:08.:44:12.

Syrian. The Syrians were called from the floor, or were they? I am the

:44:13.:44:16.

first Syrian woman who was called and I was only called because one of

:44:17.:44:20.

the audience pointed at me to be allowed to speak. And then I was

:44:21.:44:24.

interrupted and then other Syrians were not allowed to speak and we

:44:25.:44:28.

were obviously we were. We were at the back, we were shouting, we were

:44:29.:44:34.

waving, doing whatever we can to get noticed. This is about Syria and

:44:35.:44:39.

Syrians' voices should be there. Did Diane give you a fair hearing or

:44:40.:44:44.

not? No and this is traditional for the Stop the War Coalition. They

:44:45.:44:47.

don't want to listen to Syrians. If they listened to Syrians, they would

:44:48.:44:51.

have much better information to make decisions but they have this the

:44:52.:44:54.

re-about nonintervention and they want to apply it without

:44:55.:44:58.

information. If they listened to Syrians and did their homework on

:44:59.:45:02.

what is happening on the ground and what we really want, they would have

:45:03.:45:05.

a different position but they are not even doing that. What Syrians in

:45:06.:45:12.

the UK want is the protection of civilians. This is what we want.

:45:13.:45:17.

This is what we advocate and we are not asking for imperial powers to

:45:18.:45:22.

come and occupy our country. We want a stop to the killing and that's not

:45:23.:45:27.

going to happen by political talks. We had years and years of political

:45:28.:45:29.

talks that are producing nothing. We all want an end to the killing.

:45:30.:45:40.

When the House of Commons produce add report after that meeting, that

:45:41.:45:44.

sets out where we all want to stop the killing, the UK coming and

:45:45.:45:47.

bombing Syria in current circumstances will not save lives.

:45:48.:45:51.

I'm not clear that's what you're asking for, is it? The major

:45:52.:46:00.

problem... Are you, or not? They were debating bombing ISIS, whether

:46:01.:46:09.

we wanted to say of it ISIS. The cancer is the dictatorship. I was

:46:10.:46:12.

looking at reports from this stop of the war meeting. Andrew Murray's

:46:13.:46:16.

quite a big figure in stop of the war. He was a chair or still is? I'm

:46:17.:46:25.

not sure. It was about stopping the -- it was not about stopping the war

:46:26.:46:36.

at all... It's about helping as sad win the war. That's what it was

:46:37.:46:40.

about. I don't recognise that description. That's what Andrew

:46:41.:46:48.

Murray called for. He wanted as sad to defeat ISIS -- Asad. I was on the

:46:49.:46:55.

Murray called for. He wanted as sad frontbench calling not for bombing

:46:56.:46:55.

Syria two years ago. Am I wrong? did a lot of the stop the war

:46:56.:47:05.

people, did they asad to attack eyes skis? They want to make it

:47:06.:47:12.

legitimate again. ISIS is like this big tool throwing sands in the eyes

:47:13.:47:19.

so you don't see the real problem which is Asad. I don't know a single

:47:20.:47:26.

Labour MP that wants legitimise Asad. Siren will never accept Asad

:47:27.:47:35.

if remains in power. The Syrian people want a free country, a

:47:36.:47:40.

democratic country. We deserve that. The problem is that Stop the War

:47:41.:47:45.

Coalition is very active on refugee cause. Very active on Palestine, on

:47:46.:47:50.

Iraq. But when it comes to Syria, they ethically fail. Are we not

:47:51.:47:56.

worthy until we drown on your shores? One doesn't have to agree or

:47:57.:48:05.

disagree but would it not have been a rather useful Stop the War

:48:06.:48:08.

Coalition event to have heard all that at the event you chaired? She

:48:09.:48:13.

hasn't got quite to the point. What's the answer to me question?

:48:14.:48:17.

Would it not have been useful to have heard that? The event was about

:48:18.:48:21.

the arguments against military intervention. You want to argue for

:48:22.:48:25.

military intervention. You're perfectly entitled to do that. The

:48:26.:48:31.

event was to support Asad. No. It was. You are shifting the discourse.

:48:32.:48:41.

That wasn't the title. It could be named anything. What happened really

:48:42.:48:47.

is you shifted the discourse from arguing to stop Asad from killing

:48:48.:48:54.

civilians to stop ISIS and make us legitimate again. Asad kill seven

:48:55.:49:02.

times more civilians than ISIS. This week, I want to tell you what do you

:49:03.:49:07.

want to say to people there? They want protection. Why would you not,

:49:08.:49:14.

Stop the War Coalition of people who are pacifist, you don't want to go

:49:15.:49:19.

to war and throw Britain's weight around, why would you not want

:49:20.:49:24.

tolies Yoann to that? We do. You didn't. You stopped them speaking.

:49:25.:49:29.

Did you call the police? No. The police were called? I don't know

:49:30.:49:34.

about that. They were called. One of our members was escorted outside and

:49:35.:49:39.

asked repeatedly to lead. Why did you do that? I wouldn't do that. A

:49:40.:49:45.

radical politician like yourself, I'm not chairing this anymore, I'm

:49:46.:49:50.

joining the protesters. I was not aware the police were called. I

:49:51.:49:54.

didn't see the police. Let me say one thing, there is not a line from

:49:55.:50:00.

me on the record or any Labour MP saying we want to rehabilitate Asad.

:50:01.:50:10.

This is not about you, Diane. It is like giving people like money zoo a

:50:11.:50:17.

voice. -- Munza. You get to finish. The Green Party MP asked to hear

:50:18.:50:21.

from Syrians. You didn't allow it to happen. We were there, because we

:50:22.:50:29.

wanted our voice to be heard. It is veryrespect to discuss our country

:50:30.:50:35.

and not to let Syrians speak. I hope you feel the Daily Politics allowed

:50:36.:50:43.

you to have your voice:. The Transport Secretary has been updated

:50:44.:50:47.

Parliament on the situation in Sinai and the decision to cancel nights.

:50:48.:50:51.

The decisions we made were based on the review of all the information

:50:52.:50:56.

available to us. Some is sensitive. I cannot go into detail on that

:50:57.:51:01.

information. The House can be assured we've taken this decision on

:51:02.:51:04.

the basis of the safety of British citizens. There are two stages to

:51:05.:51:09.

this process. We are wokking with the airlines to put in place a

:51:10.:51:14.

short-term measure. This could include different arrangements for

:51:15.:51:17.

handling luggage. Beyond that, we are working with the Egyptians and

:51:18.:51:23.

airlines to put in place long-term sustainable measures to ensure our

:51:24.:51:27.

flights remain safe. We very much Pope it will be possible to declare

:51:28.:51:32.

it is safe to fly to the resort and resume normal flight operations in

:51:33.:51:36.

due course. But we don't know quite when. That was Patrick McLoughlin in

:51:37.:51:41.

the House of Commons as the Transport Secretary.

:51:42.:51:43.

One side effect of the rise of Corbynmania has been

:51:44.:51:46.

a huge upsurge of interest in Marxist and left-wing literature.

:51:47.:51:48.

A number of leading stores belonging to the UK's Alliance of

:51:49.:51:51.

Radical Booksellers said that sales were up and new customers want to

:51:52.:51:54.

read about the Labour Party history, as well as about socialist,

:51:55.:51:56.

If books are weapons, then these guys are big time arms dealers.

:51:57.:52:04.

Bookmarks in London is the UK's biggest socialist bookshop.

:52:05.:52:07.

Sales are up 20% since Jeremy Corbyn became Labour Leader.

:52:08.:52:12.

But they reckon it's not just down to him.

:52:13.:52:15.

I think Jeremy Corbyn's articulated a set of views

:52:16.:52:20.

and politics that lots of people have wanted expressed.

:52:21.:52:25.

I think they have been there for a very long time and there's been

:52:26.:52:31.

Since he's given them that expression, people feel a lot

:52:32.:52:36.

Noam Chomsky's polemic about Palestine is flying off the shelves.

:52:37.:52:41.

So too is the book by former Greek finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis.

:52:42.:52:46.

Channel 4 News Economics Editor Paul Mason is

:52:47.:52:49.

selling well and wait till you hear about Das Capital by Karl Marx.

:52:50.:53:03.

We've sold more copies of Capital in the last month-and-a-half than

:53:04.:53:05.

I think a whole wide range of people.

:53:06.:53:15.

A lot of students are buying it, trying to engage with his ideas.

:53:16.:53:17.

But I think lots of ordinary people as well that are encountering a

:53:18.:53:20.

But, what three titles does a self-respecting Corbynista need

:53:21.:53:24.

About the role of tax, why some people should pay more

:53:25.:53:32.

because they can and the role of tax in creating a fairer society.

:53:33.:53:35.

Next one is The Establishment by Owen Jones.

:53:36.:53:38.

Essentially talking about people at the top of society and how they

:53:39.:53:41.

run society for their own benefits at the expense of everyone else.

:53:42.:53:44.

Finally, a big issue at the moment, NHS For Sale.

:53:45.:53:48.

It is a big issue and people care a lot

:53:49.:53:51.

This book talks about the privatisation that's happening

:53:52.:53:56.

And if all that sounds a bit heavy, don't worry, there's a

:53:57.:54:01.

Jeremy Corbyn colouring book coming out just in time for Christmas!

:54:02.:54:12.

That's solved your Christmas present for me. It has. Jeffrey Archer, have

:54:13.:54:23.

you been swept up in Marxist literature. When you rang me

:54:24.:54:29.

yesterday I thought it was nothing less than my duty to check next

:54:30.:54:34.

week's bestseller list in hard back. Number one is When You're Dead,

:54:35.:54:42.

You're Dead. Number four is Binge. He doesn't drink. That can't be him.

:54:43.:54:48.

Number 8 is Leading. That's Alex Ferguson. Number 17 is Open The

:54:49.:54:59.

Cage, that's Paul O'Grady. And 47 is Absolutely Pandemonium. The Brian

:55:00.:55:04.

Blessed autobiography. None of those are leading left books. That's the

:55:05.:55:09.

top 50. Let's stick with the theme. You haven't picked up your old copy

:55:10.:55:15.

of Das Capital and had a look? It is a good thing. Anyone going into

:55:16.:55:21.

bookshops to buy box, I'm all in favour of that. We've seen many

:55:22.:55:28.

examples, JK Rowling is a classic, out came the great books all in a

:55:29.:55:32.

row for children. It was the grown-ups who benefitted later.

:55:33.:55:36.

They've gone on to read other books. She got people into books. So, if Mr

:55:37.:55:42.

Jeremy Corbyn's getting people into bookshops, that's wonderful. Diane,

:55:43.:55:48.

have you copies of these Marxist books? I read most of them years

:55:49.:55:53.

ago. On my Kindle is a book books? I read most of them years

:55:54.:56:06.

Melvin brag NOW now is the time. Do you agree with that? I can't confess

:56:07.:56:12.

to have read Melvin brag's latest book so not in a position so

:56:13.:56:18.

comment. Has Jeremy Corbyn's election interested people? I was

:56:19.:56:22.

among those and said it publicly, I felt he was bound to win. When the

:56:23.:56:27.

people were rushing out to pay ?3 to join the Labour Party to get a vote,

:56:28.:56:31.

they weren't rushing out for Andy Burnham. I worked it out pretty

:56:32.:56:34.

quickly they were rushing out for Jeremy Corbyn. I said publicly he's

:56:35.:56:38.

going to win and win easily. It doesn't surprise me. I also think

:56:39.:56:42.

he'll survive for a very long time. That will be the subject of many

:56:43.:56:46.

discussions on the Daily Politics over the next fee years. I'm sure

:56:47.:56:50.

die in ya will be part of some of those. We revisited some of your

:56:51.:56:55.

books to see if they could find a place in this up surge. First

:56:56.:57:02.

Amongst Equals And the Labour man wins and become Prime Minister. You

:57:03.:57:09.

were ahead of your times, it seems. Which books were popular during the

:57:10.:57:11.

Thatcher years? During the Thatcher Which books were popular during the

:57:12.:57:16.

years. In terms of political books on the right. Did they

:57:17.:57:21.

years. In terms of political books upsurge? The big political

:57:22.:57:22.

years. In terms of political books didn't have an upsurge in that time.

:57:23.:57:30.

years. In terms of political books The West Wing was a triumph. When

:57:31.:57:36.

that that start? 15 or 0 -- 20 years ago. So was House Of Cards. Lord

:57:37.:57:46.

that that start? 15 or 0 -- 20 years Dobbs book. Brilliant. One of the

:57:47.:57:47.

books to read Dobbs book. Brilliant. One of the

:57:48.:57:52.

Miliband. The other is Dobbs book. Brilliant. One of the

:57:53.:57:59.

unexpectedly becomes a leader of his party and is removed by conspiracy.

:58:00.:58:03.

unexpectedly becomes a leader of his Let's get quickly to the Jeremy

:58:04.:58:06.

Corbyn colouring book. Are you going do get it? Will it be on your

:58:07.:58:12.

Corbyn colouring book. Are you going Christmas list? I'm not a colouring

:58:13.:58:12.

book person. Shouldn't you be? Christmas list? I'm not a colouring

:58:13.:58:19.

all the rage. Will you get one? No, I think I'm more likely to get yum

:58:20.:58:27.

one When You're Dead, You're Dead. I think I'm more likely to get yum

:58:28.:58:31.

Not a very uplifting title. Thank you very much.

:58:32.:58:34.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:35.:58:37.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:38.:58:40.

I'll be on BBC One tonight with Michael Portillo, Alan Johnson,

:58:41.:58:42.

And I will be here again in the chair at noon tomorrow with all the

:58:43.:58:49.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by shadow international development secretary Diane Abbott to discuss the latest news from Egypt after Britain suspends flights to Sharm el-Sheikh amid security fears. They are also joined by Lord Archer to debate why left-wing literature is so popular at the moment, and debate tax credits with the Resolution Foundation and the TaxPayers' Alliance.


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