16/11/2015 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Police in France have carried out nearly 170 raids,

targeting suspected Islamists, in the wake of the Paris attacks.

The French authorities have identified two more

of the attackers - as the hunt continues for another suspect.

Over the weekend the death toll reached 129.

This morning the French Prime Minister warned further

France retaliates, bombing targets in Syria overnight.

20 bombs were dropped on the city of Raqqa, the IS stronghold.

People across France and throughout Europe have observed a minute's

The tribute was led by the French President Francois Hollande at the

Sorbonne University in recognition of the many young people who died.

The Prime Minister reveals seven terror plots have been foiled

The government announces more money for counter terrorism efforts.

All that in the next hour and with us for most

of it the Foreign Affairs analyst, writer and broadcaster,

Tim Marshall and Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee,

So to Paris where on Friday night 129 people died

in one of the worst terrorist attrocities on European soil.

It's been revealed that French police have carried out 168 raids

across the country following the attacks.

The interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, told reporters 104 people

Weapons have been seized, including a Kalashnikov, automatic

The French government says it is using the state of emergency to

question people who are part of the radical Jihadist movement.

Let's recap now on the events this weekend.

At around 9:20pm Paris time on Friday the first explosions were

heard near the Stade de France where President Francois Hollande was at a

France Germany bid by match. At that stage it was reported that one

person had been killed. It later emerged a suicide bomber had

attempted to enter the 80,000 capacity stadium but was stopped by

a security guard. Five minutes later than men with Kalashnikovs opened

fire at the bar and restaurant. They killed 15 and injured ten. Another

five lives were lost during gun attacks in the 11 district. At

9:36pm and other 19 people were killed at a restaurant. That was

followed by an explosion when a suicide bomb was detonated inside

another restaurant. The biggest loss of life came in the gun men stormed

Bataclan during a concert by American rock band Eagles Of Death

Metal. By midnight president want had placed France under a state of

emergency -- president will want. Salah Abdeslam, 26, is a key

suspect. He was reportedly stopped by officers in the wake of the

attacks and let go. His brother Mohammed Abdeslam has reportedly

been arrested in Belgium. By the assailants have also been named.

So-called Islamic State has claimed responsibility and it is believed

the attacks originated in Syria. France has responded with the

strikes which they see it destroyed a jihadi training camp and the

munitions dump in the city of Raqqa. This is what the Prime Minister had

to say this morning. To cut of the financing that

terrorists rely on, to counter the terrorist ideology and a gander and

to better protect ourselves from the threat of foreign fighters by

sharing intelligence and stopping them from travelling.

Well earlier I spoke to our Paris Correspondent, Anna Holligan.

I began by asking about the conflicting reports we had heard

after a Belgian radio station reported that Russell is born Salah

Abdeslam had been arrested. This is the most wanted man

in Europe at the moment. There is an operation underway

in the Molenbeek area of Belgium. This is

a very multicultural district and we are being told by Belgian

police on their official Twitter account, they are asking

journalists not to tweet or retweet close up photos of the operation

in progress for security reasons. The suggestion is that this

operation, there may be somebody there who they

are trying to coax out or get out in some way and any photos or tweets

could jeopardise their highly There have been conflicting reports

because we were told not very long ago that Salah Abdeslam,

the man you are talking about, It now looks like there is

some doubt about that. It looks like he is still wanted,

still out there. What we do know about this man is

that he was stopped at the border and it was a huge intelligence

missed opportunity, they went through his papers and he was

allowed to travel on and this is the man they are now searching for,

potentially You are just metres away

from the Bataclan venue where the majority of the victims

on Friday night were murdered. The Prime Minister in France,

Manuel Valls, has said he expects Has he talked any more

about that or is there anything else There have been some very worrying

words from the Prime Minister today. Earlier, he talked about more than

150 raids that were conducted He said that weapons,

including a rocket launcher, rifles and bullet-proof vests,

were picked up in Lyon. There were 15 raids there,

but right across the country. I think we can move around

and show you some of the flowers and candles that have been burning here

ever since the attacks and just behind you can see the Bataclan

music cafe where the majority Today it has been a time

of reflection here, they held People now,

it is coming to the end of three days of national mourning and they

are looking for action and that is what we are expecting to hear more

about today because the Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, warned

that there may be more attacks. He said they were aware that attacks

had been planned That is why there is a kind of

anxious calm in Paris at the moment. People are trying to get on with

their lives, the public transport is running again, people have returned

to work, the schools are open. But as we saw last night,

firecrackers were set off and everyone fled because they can't

be sure that they are safe until With us now, the French commentator,

Agnes Poirier, who is in Paris. A city in morning? -- mouring. Yes,

throughout Paris and France you have gatherings, some ended with

applause, some ended with the national anthem as was the case at

the University where President Hollande and the Prime Minister

wherewith students. In mouring but yesterday was interesting. There was

an massive pilgrimage, a lot of people, each treats were thronged

with prescience. -- this treats were thronged with prescience. All

gatherings have been banned until Thursday for security reasons, when

you have suicide bombers striking the country for the first time that

is indeed the measure to be taken. But you could see the people, they

wanted to be there, they wanted to do something. So many people just

went from one scene of carnage to another, that was their pilgrimage

for the Sunday and many people carrying flowers and you knew it was

not for a friend or mother-in-law, it was for the victims. A picture of

defiance, and of course anxiety and mouring. Soon they will be asking

questions because a lot of the suicide bombers were known to the

intelligence services and many so far are French nationals. So here we

are, French compatriots killing their compatriots. Those questions

surrounding the issue of where the suicide bombers came from and why

Paris is yet again a target, does it feel like a city under siege? Yes

and no. We have come to get used to it, since January. The French Armed

Forces are everywhere to be seen in the streets of Paris and it has been

the case for almost a year. They are guarding personalities, sensitive

places, schools, newspaper offices. We have got used to very heightened

level of alert and vigilance. We knew they were going to strike

again, we did not expect the scope, the sheer ambition of what they did

on Friday evening, that was something which shocked us, not the

fact that they struck again. So I guess it is a new and mutating

terror and an immense challenge, but not only poor France. Because Paris

stands for everything they hate, subluxation and democracy. It could

happen tomorrow indeed to other European countries and capital

cities. Stay with us, Agnes Poirier, Tim, the scale of this was something

quite unique for France, certainly mainland Europe. There have been

other dreadful attacks in other parts of the world, but

concentrating on the investigation which is ongoing, what are the

French police and the Belgian police looking at, once they have arrested

and caught the people who are still at large, what be doing? Questions

will be asked if there was a massive deal you buy them. There was a

failure but whether there are reasons and if they are excusable

will come out over the coming weeks. It is clear they are tried to take

this man alive because he is the last of the eight who is alive and

they might be able to find information from him. It is thought

that seven of the men wore suicide vests, they had to be made by

somebody. The explosives had to be made. The person who made them and

gave them almost certainly would not be one of the bombers, why would you

burn an asset as they would say? So there is far more than just eight

people involved, they want this man alive, they want as much information

as possible. The 160 odd raids today, the majority will be rounding

up the usual suspects. France has 10,000 young Muslims only notice

which means they have come to the attention. Of those a much smaller

minority-owned actually followed. This man potentially is the key, if

he is taken Allied he might not want to say very much. What about this

part of Belgium which seems to be seen as a hotbed for

radicalisation, it must have been known for? They have had trouble

there before, some of the incidents which have emanated from Brussels

have come out of there. I used to live in Brussels as a correspondent

and we knew about it then. I used to live in Paris in the 80s as a

correspondent and you could see it germinating as long ago as that. But

every single European capital has an area in which this sort of ideology

is coming out. There will be also at a military responses to this and

intelligence responses and the third plank of the response is the one

which seems to have the least effort put into it. That is combating the

ideology that allows these things to come out of these areas which are in

every single European capital. Crispin Blunt, what are your

thoughts about the attacks and the response? I think the attacks have

to be counted into future policy before they happen, we should have

expected something like this. We are relatively lucky in London because

it is a more difficult target because of the Schengen Agreement,

the lack of availability of weapons, the population is not in as much a

state of disagreement as they are in France following decades of how the

French have pursued assimilation. For those reasons we are in a better

place but it does not make us immune at all. As I go around the Palace of

Westminster talking to the policemen, it is a likelihood that

if they had the capability they would try something against an

iconic target like that, so you have to have all the protections in

place. But your policy towards the ideology, and towards the territory

that that ideology now controls which makes it easier to project

attacks on the rest of us, should already have been in place and we

need a coherent international plan to make sure that Isis is defeated

in Syria and Iraq. That does not defeat the ideology but it makes it

more difficult to project. That means you have two sort out Syria.

Francois Hollande said it was a declaration of war. An act of war.

Would you not say that you have been at war with IS with this

radicalisation and radicalism for some time? Absolutely. We talked

about war in January this year. Two years ago, France led the UN

mandated operation in Mali with some success. France is one of the most

active advocate against Daesh. Let's not forget that the different

theatres of operations are vast, in Africa with the affiliate of Daesh

or the Islamic State and in Syria and Iraq. But France cannot go alone

and send troops, that is obvious. But there are tough questions for

the coalition and for democracies because democracy is their target.

So what are we going to do? Our bombings by plain enough? They

hardly contain Irish. The Kurds are the only one actually fighting them

on the ground and they do it on our behalf -- they hardly contain

Daesh. Islamic State is convinced that democracies are not going to

send troops and that is probably what feeds there in credible cheek

and ambition to strike us at home. These Paris attacks, there will be

more, as These Paris attacks, there will be

and not only in France. Is there support in Paris from people for an

infant the bombing we have seen by France on Raqqa, for example? There

is a limit on what you can do. President Francois Hollande could

not just stay idle but President Francois Hollande could

hand, it is exactly what Isis wants. You talk to people on the

streets and they say yes, of course, but what next? The key is

intelligence much more than bombings and also cooperation with tween

allies and democracies because they hate everything democracy stands for

and Paris and France is one of the birthplace of them are Kgosi and is

the main target. When -- birthplace of the Moxey. When do you think --

democracy. When do you think Paris will get

back to normal? Since January there is a new normal, you cannot have

more Armed Forces deployed as you already have. Of course you have

soft target and the 10th and 11th district were soft targets,

extremely vibrant and diverse and useful but nobody could have

foreseen that the article and a fitter, which is very well known,

would have been a target -- the actor clan Theatre -- Bataclan. They

are incredibly ambitious and they know what they are doing and they

are planning carefully. We thought the next target might be the Eiffel

Tower or something but it is extremely well protected. The French

government cannot send troops everywhere. We will have to say

goodbye, thank you very much. Well in a show of unity,

a minute's silence was held across Europe at 11am today to

remember those who died. The mark of silence held

across Europe earlier today. Well, what of the international

reponse to the attacks? As we've heard, France retaliated

overnight with airstrikes, bombing Islamic State targets in the Syrian

city of Raqqa and security has been Over the weekend, Ukip's defence

spokesman, Mike Hookem, called on European leaders to "hang

their heads in shame" and declared I began by asking what he meant

by Schengen being dead. We know that these people,

I mean I was in northern France, I reported then people traffickers

using false passports, getting people into the country, filling

them up in cars and vehicles. We now have a situation where Isis,

these terrorists, have identified a weakness

in our security and are taking full Of course we are not part

of that borderless Europe, Yes, we do,

but they should be strengthened. More security, more people on

the borders, more passport checks. That is being done,

the Home Secretary has announced He has announced that today but

that has only just happened after Back to the Schengen

agreement you say is dead. Do you mean now that borderless

Europe is over, that there are going to be border controls set up on all

continental European countries? Yes, we've seen it,

France are now bringing back the border controls, other countries

are bringing back border controls. These people are taking advantage

of our weakness in security and they are going to carry on

taking advantage of that security. You also slammed European leaders

who actively encouraged the migrant crisis and said they

should hang their heads in shame. What do you mean in terms

of the migrant crisis in relation to Nigel Farage said in April that this

was going to happen, that Isis was going to flood the continent with

terrorists and freedom fighters In August,

when I was over there in northern France, I was saying then that this

was a weak point and people were coming in and some of these people,

not all but some of these people But when you look at what happened

in Paris, and the identification of the suicide bombers that have

been made public, only one has been linked, and even yet that is still

yet to be completely formally The others were

home-grown terrorists. But they are being supplied

and there is more people coming Do you think this attack would not

have happened if there hadn't been a flow of refugees and migrants from

Libya to Greece and through Europe? I'm saying it's being helped

by the flow of migrants coming in and the lack of checks

and security on the borders. So when you say that European

leaders who actively encouraged the migrant crisis should hang their

heads in shame, are you thinking In April, Nigel Farage stood up in

the Parliament and said that this was a likelihood, a real chance of

this happening, and he was laughed Is this the time to be making party

political points, When I'm sat there that night

looking at what was going on across in France, this is an

absolute tragedy, it was shocking. But as politicians,

we have to be looking to the future and we have to be looking

at what weaknesses on the borders. We was highlighting these weaknesses

and people should step up now Some of the statements by Ukip

members, including the deputy chairman Suzanne Evans,

have blamed Islam for the attacks. This is about a small minority

of people who have She has tweeted,

"Will politicians finally admit... I'm not going to defend

Suzanne Evans on this programme. I'm stating now there is

a small number of, you know, Islamic terrorists who have

a warped sense of Islam. Was she wrong to say,

"Will politicians finally admit that the Paris attacks had something to

do with Islam"? Suzanne will have to defend herself,

I'm not here to defend her. Right, but you don't think she was

right to say it was Islam As I said, there are

a small number of these terrorists Nigel Farage will be giving

a speech on foreign policy tonight. Can we expect any changes to Ukip

policy? No,

I think Nigel will be himself and he will be strong on the message he has

been sending out for many months. But what will he be proposing other

than what you have said today? I haven't seen Nigel's speech, I

haven't spoken to him this weekend. What would you like to hear

from him? What sort of tone do you

think he should strike? He's got to have a tough tone

on the foreign policy As we have been saying,

this has to be a grand coalition of the countries, bringing Russia

and bringing China, Nato, the Arab Do you think we should be

bombing Isis in Syria? Bombing is all well and good

if there is a strategy Wholesale bombing is

not going to work. There has to be a strategy to

the end, there has to be troops Who those troops are, I don't know,

whether they be Nato troops, Russian troops, but there has to be

troops on the ground. Would you like to see Nato come

in at this stage? It is an act of war and I think Nato

has to get involved. Let's talk about this declaration of

war. David Cameron did not want to use that sentiment this morning. I

mentioned Nato, does it have any implications for Nato? Potentially.

The French president was the first to say it. It was followed up in the

French press, a headline saying that this time it was war. He can invoke

Article five of the Nato charter is the wishes, an attack on one is an

attack on all which is only done once before and that was after 9/11.

I don't think that is necessary at the moment. It might even come big

things. You will have seen at the G8 entry -- T20, Putin and Obama

talking. That was at least half an hour. Which is unusual for them. The

Prime Minister has been talking with Putin today. The Chief of defence

staff got in a bit of hot water saying that we were abandoning our

allies and that we needed to get some sort of strategy with Putin.

That is getting traction now. Nicolas Sarkozy has said it and he

might be standing again. I'm not making an argument one way or the

other but what seemed outlandish is coming into the centre. Do you

support that dialogue but you look David Cameron has met with Vladimir

Putin, they have talked about a unified response, is that the right

response and pragmatic politics? We have eight necessity to defeat Isis

and to do that you have to bring the Syrian Civil War to a conclusion

because you had to work out who in Syria will take and hold the

territory and administer it, that is hold by Isis and that means a

conversation with Putin. He and the Iranians are supporting the Syrian

regime. All of this has begun, it began in the wake of the downing of

the Russian airliner. There was a follow-up meeting in Vienna and the

conclusions from that are encouraging, about setting out

conclusions from that are international strategy and a pathway

to some resolution of the Syrian Civil War.

to some resolution of the Syrian with identifying who the terrorist

groups within Syria are so there is a process happening and we have to

get behind that and make sure the Iranians and the Saudis are part of

it. So do Turkey, as well as the Russians and the Americans.

it. So do Turkey, as well as the sticking point was that the Russians

would have two stop bombing what work colloquially known as

opposition to Bashar al-Assad full stop they want to keep him there and

Britain doesn't. stop they want to keep him there and

agreement is the political stop they want to keep him there and

elections that will involve all stop they want to keep him there and

Syrians. The Russian line is that it is for the Syrians to choose their

leader. Within an electoral and political process that is meant

leader. Within an electoral and starting on January one, with all

the international players, who all have dogs in this fight, they have

agreed to put pressure on their clients to make them sit down at the

table and begin that process of transition. Is rooting

table and begin that process of militarily possible? Yes. With or

without ground troops? That is more problematic. You have to have ground

troops. Whose troops? It'll be a conventional land to take and hold

the ground currently administered by Isis. They are running a adamant

there and controlling territory. It would be infinitely better if those

round trips come from both sides of the Comput -- those ground troops

come from both sides of the conflict and also come from Turkey, Saudi

Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, those are the countries who should be putting

together troops along with the Iraqi army.

If they can put together an operation in Yemen they can do it in

Syria. Total air supremacy, target acquisition, special forces, all the

things which will enable the conventional military operation to

be relatively straight forward in that sense against an enemy the size

and as well-equipped as Isis, if it can put together properly we can

make sure the ground troops are able to complete the operation. That is

the ideal situation. But if they are not prepared to do it we will have

to look eventually at other options. It goes straight to the Isis

ideological narrative, if it is Western Force is or Iranians forces

who are the people on the ground. Is continued British noninvolvement in

Syria in terms of bombing looking increasingly untenable Crispin? It's

an important point, the House of Commons at some point will be

asked, I hope, to approve a contribution to the land air

campaign which will take out Isis. I hope it doesn't involve British

ground troops but it should involve a more substantial British air

campaign than is being suggested. I think the House of Commons, in Askin

for right thing and this is what Britain should be doing with our

international partners. Saying it is all very well, but we have to get a

coherent international strategy together. We all agree Isis are our

enemy and must be defeated. We have all taken serious casualties. Let's

make the decisions necessary to put the strategy in place. What about

the immediate response on the continent? Agnes Poirier seeing you

cannot have more armed guards on the street, you cannot prevent those

kind of attacks. What about Schengen? What about the EU? Has it

been exposed in a way which is irreparable? It was already

suffering hammer blows because of the refugee crisis and this is a

greater blow from which it might not recover and of course the refugee

story has not finished. The causality is not yet established but

IS did announce they were going to send people with refugees. I don't

think there is not a great move deal more which can be done than which is

already being done. Poland said they would not get involved taking

refugees after this because they have seen what can happen. The whole

thing is coming down. Militarily there will be our response and IS

will lose, the same way that Al-Qaeda dead and prevent replaced

by IS. But they will be followed by another group unless you deal with

it at the root. Accept that the ideology, there has to be a

softening of some of the teachings that these people get. Crispin

Blunt, thank you very much, Tim, you are staying with us.

Well, the attacks in Paris will undoubtedly have implications

The Prime Minister has called for the

the British public to show "resolve" in the wake of the terror attacks.

Mr Cameron promised extra funding for the UK's security services to

help combat Islamic State terrorism, revealing that seven plots has been

Let's talk now to our political correspondent Chris Mason.

Can you elaborate on the new measures which are being brought in?

The Prime Minister has given a press conference in the last hour in

Turkey at the G20 summit before flying back to London. What did we

learn? He says there have been agreements at the summit over

intelligence sharing and cutting off the financing for terrorist groups.

He says there will be a big increase in the amount of money spent in the

UK on aviation security and for the first time cooperations amongst G20

countries on that theme. They have also fast forwarded an announcement

on boosts to the intelligence services, an extra 1900 operatives

will be recruited. That will obviously take some time before they

are up and running, trained, have been through the security checks

which will take place for anyone hired by those organisations. The

Prime Minister also making the case that in his view there is not any

border between Iraq and Syria as far as Isil are concerned so that UK

should not necessarily feel obliged to take account of that in its

bombing raids on Isil which at the moment are restricted to Iraq. But

the is a real sense from many MPs hear that they are yet to be

persuaded, particularly Jeremy Corbyn this morning making it very

clear that he sees France's additional attacks on Isil over the

weekend as potentially counter-productive. Thank you Chris

And joining us now, the Conservative MP, Oliver Dowden.

The Labour MP, Chris Matheson and, from Salford, Haras Rafiq

And Tim Marshall is still here. The seven foiled plots indicate that

Islamic State do pose a threat in the UK, are we at risk to the same

degree as brands? Yes but we are better prepared. -- as France. It is

hard to get a Kalashnikov here. You mentioned that a rocket launcher has

been found in one of the raids. Even in the 1990s French gangsters were

using rocket propelled grenades on money carriers. And they don't just

have a helmet, they have a bullet-proof vest. If the gangsters

can get Kalashnikovs so can the Islamists. They have seven borders

and have not been any checks on any of them. The UK is in a different

position. But I am pretty sure that at some point there will be an

attempt like this. But we do have, very, very good intelligence and

that is why the Prime Minister has today announced what I think is a

15% budget increase in intelligence services. This attack is almost

impossible to protect against, that is the problem? Yes, and I think

what it points to first of all is that Islamic State, if we had any

doubt, present a clear threat to our national security in this country.

We have seen these attacks on a Russian plane, on the beaches of

Tunisia, the attack in Paris. There is clearly a threat here. In

response what we need to look at is how we can help the security

services do their job. From my time working in number ten I was aware of

the number of plots which are actually foiled and we need to give

the security services the power to do that. And we need to look at how

weedy with Isis in Syria -- how we deal with. Do you agree that any

objections on Civil Liberties grounds to increasing surveillance

or current legislation by Theresa May, will fall on deaf ears? We

cannot allow a terrorist attack however dreadful to dictate

long-term policy in these areas. There have to be some changes, some

moves to bring up to date the surveillance powers of the

intelligence agencies. But we have to do that within the context of a

country which remains committed to liberty including judicial

involvement in the warrants. It appears some of the attackers were

French European citizens, some of whom were thought to have returned

from fighting in Syria or Iraq with Islamic State. The police say that

out of the 700 British people who have gone to Syria have have

returned to the country, we are at risk and we? Absolutely, people have

been talking about extremism, ten years ago we were talking about

Al-Qaeda inspired extremism, the reality is that IS, Isil and

Al-Qaeda did not inspire extremism, extremism inspired them. We are

living in a time of the global jihadists insurgency. That is not

sustainable unless there is support. We are living in a time where there

is some support for the political ideology which underpins the

particular form of extremism and theology which empowers people to

carry out these attacks. If theology which empowers people to

the lens of Isil or defeating IS as we did with

the lens of Isil or defeating IS as mentioned that we had a won the war

against Al-Qaeda, I've ever speaking to a senior politician when Osama

bin Ladin was killed and saying this is not over and he

bin Ladin was killed and saying this we have taken out the leader.

Clearly we have not. The risk is from the ideology which reads

youngsters to be brainwashed and recruited to this worldview where

their identity is no longer British or French or anything like that. It

is Islamist jihadists. That is what we need to tackle. How would you

tackle it? What would be the first thing you would do? If you see a

continuation from Al-Qaeda to thing you would do? If you see a

what would you do? One thing which has not been tried is to

what would you do? One thing which ideology. We have only had half of a

prevention strategy. We were looking to this

prevention strategy. We were looking security and I am not saying we

shouldn't. It government to protect its citizens.

But we have government to protect its citizens.

task force where we have to government to protect its citizens.

civil society coalitions, alliances to deconstruct the ideology, the

the alternatives. Have a strategy and in actual fact, the preventative

strategy for and in actual fact, the preventative

say they have been a limited by the government, they were not included

in discussions. Do you agree it has been a failure? This is something

the parameter takes very seriously. He is committed to tackling

extremism at source -- something the Prime Minister takes very seriously.

This cannot be done easily, Prime Minister takes very seriously.

are challenges as to how you best achieve this. You

are challenges as to how you best years and all we

are challenges as to how you best stream of people from Britain and

other European countries going to fight in Syria. There are two

issues, first late tackle a thing fight in Syria. There are two

firstly tackling it in this country. There is a second issue which

relates to people coming back from Syria which is more a case of how do

we monitor the people who have gone out and been radicalised and are

coming back. That is a combination of education and the security

services keeping tabs. The failure has been people going out in the

first place. Why have they been so attracted to the ideology of the

prevent strategy has been successful? You cannot expect one

strategy alone to be the cure all bullet. There are tremendous pulls

to countries like Syria where there is a missed placed romanticism,

almost as if it was taking place in the Spanish Civil War. You cannot

tackle it all at once. Are you shaking your head because you don't

think prevent has worked in anyway shape or form, or enough

understanding of the problem? If you look at a lot of the success in

terms of empowering schools to do safeguarding, it has been done this

year. Five years of the Coalition Government, there was not any, one

particular government department tasked with going out to communities

and in power voices to take on the challenge. It didn't happen. Now it

is happening so it is correct to say the prevent strategy had not worked

because we only had half a prevent strategy. Now the gap is being

filled but it is only recently where they buy minister has made some

inroads -- the Prime Minister has made some inroads. We have not

tackled the ideology that eight minority within a minority have

decided to go out to Iraq and Syria. The Prime Minister is doing it now

but we should have done it five years ago. How much responsibility

rests with the Muslim community in Britain? I don't think we are

talking about Muslim issues, Islamic State are a fascist grip and if we

understand it is a fascist ideology we can separate it entirely from

most mainstream Muslim thought. There will be some individuals out

there, hate preachers and someone who will need to be dealt with. But

the huge majority of Muslims, certainly in Chester where I know

the community, and right across, are horrified by these attacks. There is

a huge responsibility on news on committees in particular to identify

those people who are perhaps at risk, perhaps acting a little

strangely. But that could be the same of any of us looking at people

being radicalised. Do you agree, does there need to be more

responsibility from within the community to help identify people

who might be vulnerable to this sort of ideology?

If you look at the statistics of people going out to join Isil and

convicted of these attacks, it is a fallacy to say that they are not

educated, middle-class or upper middle class, 40s and percent of the

people convicted in the UK have had higher education. -- 47%. We have to

look at this, not just to the point where they become violent, we have

to look at the whole concept of totalitarianism, the idea of this

Islamist caliphate, enforcing their version of Shahril or, that is what

we need to tackle. -- sharia law. There is a whole roll for Muslims

and non-Muslims. The new community engagement Forum is not a Muslim

engagement Forum, it is a community engagement Forum with Muslims and

non-Muslims coming together to form these alliances and tackle this. It

is a problem for the whole immunity but Muslims, people like me need to

play our part -- the whole community. Tweets are coming in

saying that France will call for effective suspension of Schengen on

Friday. I'll use a prized? Not in the least -- are you surprised.

What is happening is Fortress nation state and not Fortress Europe. They

will not be a big ring around Europe, there is odd why are going

up and there are deep divisions in our heads -- there is barbed wire. I

think IS are fascists, they are Islamic fascists and I don't think

you can separate religion from it which is unpopular but a personal

belief. But they are going to lose but in the manner of them losing we

are going to divide and that is pretty sad. Thank you for joining

us. Now let's take a look

at how the political map is shaping This afternoon in the Commons,

MPs will debate plans to boost counter-terrorism

and aviation security. Tonight the Prime Minister will give

his annual speech on foreign policy at the Lord Mayor's banquet

in the City of London. And Ukip leader Nigel Farage will

also give a speech this evening, addressing the events in Paris, as

part of his "Say No to the EU" tour. On Wednesday David Cameron faces

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn across the despatch box

for our weekly dose of PMQs. And on Thursday the House of Commons

will discuss issues surrounding A debate secured by the Conservative

back-bencher Phillip Davies. And with us now,

Steve Richards from the Independent and Tim Shipman, Political Editor

of the Sunday Times. Steve Richards, David Cameron is

giving a speech on foreign policy, do you expect him to say that event

in Paris underline the case for British air strikes in Syria? He

thought before Paris, wrongly in my view, that there was a case for air

strikes. It is a statement of the obvious, if you can't get a majority

in the House of Commons, they will not put it to the house. I can't see

why these air strikes, sorry, the event in Paris on Friday, change the

essential argument. Some MPs have told me they think there is a

majority in the House of Commons for air strikes and probably was before

Paris because you have a section of the Labour Party who will back them.

He won't do it until he is sure he will win the vote and that remains

unchanged. Is there a continued campaign to get the numbers? There

were conflicting reports over the weekend, some Labour MPs said they

had not been talk to but others said they had and there was a coalition

to get support. If they make the effort, there is probably the

numbers. Michael Fallon has been getting people into the MoD,

including Labour MPs. My understanding is that will

continue. What needs to happen, and people around the Prime Minister

know this, is that he has to get stuck in himself and make this

argument. Steve said the argument hasn't changed, it probably hasn't,

and there is still big argument about whether you bomb one side of

an artificial line or the other and if it makes a difference. There is a

sense that senior people like Crispin Blunt are beginning to edge

back a bit from the precipice of a hundred patient with the PM and if

he makes the effort and gets people in himself, there is a majority -- a

confrontation. The Prime Minister is committed to having action in Syria

and we had the vote three years ago. I don't think this completely

changes the argument but it is further evidence that Isis present a

risk to national security and we should be taking efforts to deal

with it. The Prime Minister has said there is no point in having the vote

if you know the result will be the same. When the catered been made,

then we can have a vote. -- the case has been made. Should he be making

this central to his efforts if he believes in it? You heard him this

morning, he is repeating this argument that we need to deal with

Isis. That sounds like he will push but but but the Foreign Affairs

Committee report. That was not written without them being fully

aware of the risks. Paris confirms that. They were there before Paris

and they are still there. Crispin said on your programme that there

has to be some kind of coherent military strategy involving Buttin

and others before they endorse further military action -- Putin. It

is interesting that the vote three years ago was about arming Assad but

things have moved on. It is now Islamic State. There is a Civil War

with five or six different sides. I'm not clear whether arming Assad

or Islamic state or both would have to fight that Civil War or clarify

the outcome. Would you vote against the dish military... -- Berchiche

military. At a flop At the moment, I can't see how UK

bombing any side debate several -- any side of a civil war in Syria. We

can hear what Jeremy Corbyn had to say. He is echoing those sentiments.

The idea has to be, surely, a political settlement in Syria.

There are some signs that the talks over the weekend made some progress.

Iraq, Russia, USA, European Union around the table together with all

the regional governments, particularly Turkey, is key.

Who is providing safe havens for Isis?

You have to ask questions about the arms that everybody has

sold in the region, the role of Saudi Arabia in this.

I think there are some very big questions and we have to be careful.

One war doesn't necessarily bring about peace,

it often can bring more conflict and more mayhem and more loss.

That was Jeremy Corbyn. If it came to the Commons, if David Cameron

felt there were enough Labour MPs on board to back British military air

strikes, should Jeremy Corbyn give his MPs a free vote? I suspect a lot

of MPs would vote with their conscience anyway because it is a

tough decision. There will have to be negotiations and they can't

include any regard for Islamic State, there is no negotiating with

them. There has to be some kind of international settlement. The Prime

Minister has been talking to President Putin which I suspect will

help to clarify the situation but until we have that clarity about

where we are going and how to get there, I can't see I would be voting

in favour of it. That is work in progress for the Prime Minister.

Jeremy Corbyn has not changed his mind. He is making perfectly

legitimate points about a political settlement, this is something they

are trying to push forward, there is a view in the Labour Party that he

would not countenance military action under any circumstances. He

has to be careful because if he goes too far to that extreme, he will

push some of his front ventures who think there is a case for

intervention, more likely to go against him if he appears to be

digging himself into that pacifist hole. Let's talk about the measures

announced today, the extra spending towards intelligence officers.

Despite the fact that we don't have any money, we have found money for

this, rightly so? The politics with this is the politics of the long

haul, the Arno instant solutions. -- there are no instant solutions. I

think the proposals from Theresa May to give intelligence agencies access

to Internet records are legitimate. I think George Osborne's spending

review comes into this because the policing cuts as originally proposed

are not sustainable. Community policing has stopped some terrorists

from acting and yet their budget is massively under threat. All of these

things come into play. They make a difference. My doubt is whether an

immediate vote on military action in Syria is the right response. These

other things are and that includes the surveillance thing. What is the

point of spending extra money on spies and intelligence services if

you are going to cut the police? Let's wait to see what is in the

spending review. We know their budget will be cut. On the

intelligent agencies, the government has rightly prioritised this. But it

has to be in parallel, you had to beef up resources but also make sure

they have the tools and that is why it is important we press ahead with

the investigatory powers at the same time. Would you support more funding

for the police? I would support more funding for every area of public

services for the we still have an enormous budget deficit. We have to

take difficult decisions but the prioritisation of resources for the

intelligent services shows that the Prime Minister will not compromise

national security. It is not just the police, we have seen cuts to the

immigration services so we are still not sure who is coming in and out of

the country. It is a complicated picture. Looking to cut the police

in the way it seems proposed frankly would be a dangerous step. And it

would not go down well with the public. This is very dangerous

politics. We are pulling 600 watts, -- following 600 plots. If the Prime

Minister wants to use his political capital on the back of Paris he

would be better advised to use it pushing through these surveillance

laws and beefing up the nub of people who can track down the

perpetrators of these acts. The other argument we might start to see

is about armed police. Every single French policeman was armed and they

could respond relatively quickly. Could we really respond that quickly

on the streets of London? Should we have more armed police on the

streets? Again, in the context of budget cuts, it is a tough question

to ask. The training has to be right, they have do have regular

access to continuing training, it is a major step to make it if it

reassures the public, it is something that can be looked at.

Improving intelligence might be a better way forward.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

He's in an exotic land. In the far reaches of northern Europe.

A place of unbelievable history, myth and legend.