16/11/2015 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Police in France have carried out nearly 170 raids,


targeting suspected Islamists, in the wake of the Paris attacks.


The French authorities have identified two more


of the attackers - as the hunt continues for another suspect.


Over the weekend the death toll reached 129.


This morning the French Prime Minister warned further


France retaliates, bombing targets in Syria overnight.


20 bombs were dropped on the city of Raqqa, the IS stronghold.


People across France and throughout Europe have observed a minute's


The tribute was led by the French President Francois Hollande at the


Sorbonne University in recognition of the many young people who died.


The Prime Minister reveals seven terror plots have been foiled


The government announces more money for counter terrorism efforts.


All that in the next hour and with us for most


of it the Foreign Affairs analyst, writer and broadcaster,


Tim Marshall and Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee,


So to Paris where on Friday night 129 people died


in one of the worst terrorist attrocities on European soil.


It's been revealed that French police have carried out 168 raids


across the country following the attacks.


The interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, told reporters 104 people


Weapons have been seized, including a Kalashnikov, automatic


The French government says it is using the state of emergency to


question people who are part of the radical Jihadist movement.


Let's recap now on the events this weekend.


At around 9:20pm Paris time on Friday the first explosions were


heard near the Stade de France where President Francois Hollande was at a


France Germany bid by match. At that stage it was reported that one


person had been killed. It later emerged a suicide bomber had


attempted to enter the 80,000 capacity stadium but was stopped by


a security guard. Five minutes later than men with Kalashnikovs opened


fire at the bar and restaurant. They killed 15 and injured ten. Another


five lives were lost during gun attacks in the 11 district. At


9:36pm and other 19 people were killed at a restaurant. That was


followed by an explosion when a suicide bomb was detonated inside


another restaurant. The biggest loss of life came in the gun men stormed


Bataclan during a concert by American rock band Eagles Of Death


Metal. By midnight president want had placed France under a state of


emergency -- president will want. Salah Abdeslam, 26, is a key


suspect. He was reportedly stopped by officers in the wake of the


attacks and let go. His brother Mohammed Abdeslam has reportedly


been arrested in Belgium. By the assailants have also been named.


So-called Islamic State has claimed responsibility and it is believed


the attacks originated in Syria. France has responded with the


strikes which they see it destroyed a jihadi training camp and the


munitions dump in the city of Raqqa. This is what the Prime Minister had


to say this morning. To cut of the financing that


terrorists rely on, to counter the terrorist ideology and a gander and


to better protect ourselves from the threat of foreign fighters by


sharing intelligence and stopping them from travelling.


Well earlier I spoke to our Paris Correspondent, Anna Holligan.


I began by asking about the conflicting reports we had heard


after a Belgian radio station reported that Russell is born Salah


Abdeslam had been arrested. This is the most wanted man


in Europe at the moment. There is an operation underway


in the Molenbeek area of Belgium. This is


a very multicultural district and we are being told by Belgian


police on their official Twitter account, they are asking


journalists not to tweet or retweet close up photos of the operation


in progress for security reasons. The suggestion is that this


operation, there may be somebody there who they


are trying to coax out or get out in some way and any photos or tweets


could jeopardise their highly There have been conflicting reports


because we were told not very long ago that Salah Abdeslam,


the man you are talking about, It now looks like there is


some doubt about that. It looks like he is still wanted,


still out there. What we do know about this man is


that he was stopped at the border and it was a huge intelligence


missed opportunity, they went through his papers and he was


allowed to travel on and this is the man they are now searching for,


potentially You are just metres away


from the Bataclan venue where the majority of the victims


on Friday night were murdered. The Prime Minister in France,


Manuel Valls, has said he expects Has he talked any more


about that or is there anything else There have been some very worrying


words from the Prime Minister today. Earlier, he talked about more than


150 raids that were conducted He said that weapons,


including a rocket launcher, rifles and bullet-proof vests,


were picked up in Lyon. There were 15 raids there,


but right across the country. I think we can move around


and show you some of the flowers and candles that have been burning here


ever since the attacks and just behind you can see the Bataclan


music cafe where the majority Today it has been a time


of reflection here, they held People now,


it is coming to the end of three days of national mourning and they


are looking for action and that is what we are expecting to hear more


about today because the Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, warned


that there may be more attacks. He said they were aware that attacks


had been planned That is why there is a kind of


anxious calm in Paris at the moment. People are trying to get on with


their lives, the public transport is running again, people have returned


to work, the schools are open. But as we saw last night,


firecrackers were set off and everyone fled because they can't


be sure that they are safe until With us now, the French commentator,


Agnes Poirier, who is in Paris. A city in morning? -- mouring. Yes,


throughout Paris and France you have gatherings, some ended with


applause, some ended with the national anthem as was the case at


the University where President Hollande and the Prime Minister


wherewith students. In mouring but yesterday was interesting. There was


an massive pilgrimage, a lot of people, each treats were thronged


with prescience. -- this treats were thronged with prescience. All


gatherings have been banned until Thursday for security reasons, when


you have suicide bombers striking the country for the first time that


is indeed the measure to be taken. But you could see the people, they


wanted to be there, they wanted to do something. So many people just


went from one scene of carnage to another, that was their pilgrimage


for the Sunday and many people carrying flowers and you knew it was


not for a friend or mother-in-law, it was for the victims. A picture of


defiance, and of course anxiety and mouring. Soon they will be asking


questions because a lot of the suicide bombers were known to the


intelligence services and many so far are French nationals. So here we


are, French compatriots killing their compatriots. Those questions


surrounding the issue of where the suicide bombers came from and why


Paris is yet again a target, does it feel like a city under siege? Yes


and no. We have come to get used to it, since January. The French Armed


Forces are everywhere to be seen in the streets of Paris and it has been


the case for almost a year. They are guarding personalities, sensitive


places, schools, newspaper offices. We have got used to very heightened


level of alert and vigilance. We knew they were going to strike


again, we did not expect the scope, the sheer ambition of what they did


on Friday evening, that was something which shocked us, not the


fact that they struck again. So I guess it is a new and mutating


terror and an immense challenge, but not only poor France. Because Paris


stands for everything they hate, subluxation and democracy. It could


happen tomorrow indeed to other European countries and capital


cities. Stay with us, Agnes Poirier, Tim, the scale of this was something


quite unique for France, certainly mainland Europe. There have been


other dreadful attacks in other parts of the world, but


concentrating on the investigation which is ongoing, what are the


French police and the Belgian police looking at, once they have arrested


and caught the people who are still at large, what be doing? Questions


will be asked if there was a massive deal you buy them. There was a


failure but whether there are reasons and if they are excusable


will come out over the coming weeks. It is clear they are tried to take


this man alive because he is the last of the eight who is alive and


they might be able to find information from him. It is thought


that seven of the men wore suicide vests, they had to be made by


somebody. The explosives had to be made. The person who made them and


gave them almost certainly would not be one of the bombers, why would you


burn an asset as they would say? So there is far more than just eight


people involved, they want this man alive, they want as much information


as possible. The 160 odd raids today, the majority will be rounding


up the usual suspects. France has 10,000 young Muslims only notice


which means they have come to the attention. Of those a much smaller


minority-owned actually followed. This man potentially is the key, if


he is taken Allied he might not want to say very much. What about this


part of Belgium which seems to be seen as a hotbed for


radicalisation, it must have been known for? They have had trouble


there before, some of the incidents which have emanated from Brussels


have come out of there. I used to live in Brussels as a correspondent


and we knew about it then. I used to live in Paris in the 80s as a


correspondent and you could see it germinating as long ago as that. But


every single European capital has an area in which this sort of ideology


is coming out. There will be also at a military responses to this and


intelligence responses and the third plank of the response is the one


which seems to have the least effort put into it. That is combating the


ideology that allows these things to come out of these areas which are in


every single European capital. Crispin Blunt, what are your


thoughts about the attacks and the response? I think the attacks have


to be counted into future policy before they happen, we should have


expected something like this. We are relatively lucky in London because


it is a more difficult target because of the Schengen Agreement,


the lack of availability of weapons, the population is not in as much a


state of disagreement as they are in France following decades of how the


French have pursued assimilation. For those reasons we are in a better


place but it does not make us immune at all. As I go around the Palace of


Westminster talking to the policemen, it is a likelihood that


if they had the capability they would try something against an


iconic target like that, so you have to have all the protections in


place. But your policy towards the ideology, and towards the territory


that that ideology now controls which makes it easier to project


attacks on the rest of us, should already have been in place and we


need a coherent international plan to make sure that Isis is defeated


in Syria and Iraq. That does not defeat the ideology but it makes it


more difficult to project. That means you have two sort out Syria.


Francois Hollande said it was a declaration of war. An act of war.


Would you not say that you have been at war with IS with this


radicalisation and radicalism for some time? Absolutely. We talked


about war in January this year. Two years ago, France led the UN


mandated operation in Mali with some success. France is one of the most


active advocate against Daesh. Let's not forget that the different


theatres of operations are vast, in Africa with the affiliate of Daesh


or the Islamic State and in Syria and Iraq. But France cannot go alone


and send troops, that is obvious. But there are tough questions for


the coalition and for democracies because democracy is their target.


So what are we going to do? Our bombings by plain enough? They


hardly contain Irish. The Kurds are the only one actually fighting them


on the ground and they do it on our behalf -- they hardly contain


Daesh. Islamic State is convinced that democracies are not going to


send troops and that is probably what feeds there in credible cheek


and ambition to strike us at home. These Paris attacks, there will be


more, as These Paris attacks, there will be


and not only in France. Is there support in Paris from people for an


infant the bombing we have seen by France on Raqqa, for example? There


is a limit on what you can do. President Francois Hollande could


not just stay idle but President Francois Hollande could


hand, it is exactly what Isis wants. You talk to people on the


streets and they say yes, of course, but what next? The key is


intelligence much more than bombings and also cooperation with tween


allies and democracies because they hate everything democracy stands for


and Paris and France is one of the birthplace of them are Kgosi and is


the main target. When -- birthplace of the Moxey. When do you think --


democracy. When do you think Paris will get


back to normal? Since January there is a new normal, you cannot have


more Armed Forces deployed as you already have. Of course you have


soft target and the 10th and 11th district were soft targets,


extremely vibrant and diverse and useful but nobody could have


foreseen that the article and a fitter, which is very well known,


would have been a target -- the actor clan Theatre -- Bataclan. They


are incredibly ambitious and they know what they are doing and they


are planning carefully. We thought the next target might be the Eiffel


Tower or something but it is extremely well protected. The French


government cannot send troops everywhere. We will have to say


goodbye, thank you very much. Well in a show of unity,


a minute's silence was held across Europe at 11am today to


remember those who died. The mark of silence held


across Europe earlier today. Well, what of the international


reponse to the attacks? As we've heard, France retaliated


overnight with airstrikes, bombing Islamic State targets in the Syrian


city of Raqqa and security has been Over the weekend, Ukip's defence


spokesman, Mike Hookem, called on European leaders to "hang


their heads in shame" and declared I began by asking what he meant


by Schengen being dead. We know that these people,


I mean I was in northern France, I reported then people traffickers


using false passports, getting people into the country, filling


them up in cars and vehicles. We now have a situation where Isis,


these terrorists, have identified a weakness


in our security and are taking full Of course we are not part


of that borderless Europe, Yes, we do,


but they should be strengthened. More security, more people on


the borders, more passport checks. That is being done,


the Home Secretary has announced He has announced that today but


that has only just happened after Back to the Schengen


agreement you say is dead. Do you mean now that borderless


Europe is over, that there are going to be border controls set up on all


continental European countries? Yes, we've seen it,


France are now bringing back the border controls, other countries


are bringing back border controls. These people are taking advantage


of our weakness in security and they are going to carry on


taking advantage of that security. You also slammed European leaders


who actively encouraged the migrant crisis and said they


should hang their heads in shame. What do you mean in terms


of the migrant crisis in relation to Nigel Farage said in April that this


was going to happen, that Isis was going to flood the continent with


terrorists and freedom fighters In August,


when I was over there in northern France, I was saying then that this


was a weak point and people were coming in and some of these people,


not all but some of these people But when you look at what happened


in Paris, and the identification of the suicide bombers that have


been made public, only one has been linked, and even yet that is still


yet to be completely formally The others were


home-grown terrorists. But they are being supplied


and there is more people coming Do you think this attack would not


have happened if there hadn't been a flow of refugees and migrants from


Libya to Greece and through Europe? I'm saying it's being helped


by the flow of migrants coming in and the lack of checks


and security on the borders. So when you say that European


leaders who actively encouraged the migrant crisis should hang their


heads in shame, are you thinking In April, Nigel Farage stood up in


the Parliament and said that this was a likelihood, a real chance of


this happening, and he was laughed Is this the time to be making party


political points, When I'm sat there that night


looking at what was going on across in France, this is an


absolute tragedy, it was shocking. But as politicians,


we have to be looking to the future and we have to be looking


at what weaknesses on the borders. We was highlighting these weaknesses


and people should step up now Some of the statements by Ukip


members, including the deputy chairman Suzanne Evans,


have blamed Islam for the attacks. This is about a small minority


of people who have She has tweeted,


"Will politicians finally admit... I'm not going to defend


Suzanne Evans on this programme. I'm stating now there is


a small number of, you know, Islamic terrorists who have


a warped sense of Islam. Was she wrong to say,


"Will politicians finally admit that the Paris attacks had something to


do with Islam"? Suzanne will have to defend herself,


I'm not here to defend her. Right, but you don't think she was


right to say it was Islam As I said, there are


a small number of these terrorists Nigel Farage will be giving


a speech on foreign policy tonight. Can we expect any changes to Ukip


policy? No,


I think Nigel will be himself and he will be strong on the message he has


been sending out for many months. But what will he be proposing other


than what you have said today? I haven't seen Nigel's speech, I


haven't spoken to him this weekend. What would you like to hear


from him? What sort of tone do you


think he should strike? He's got to have a tough tone


on the foreign policy As we have been saying,


this has to be a grand coalition of the countries, bringing Russia


and bringing China, Nato, the Arab Do you think we should be


bombing Isis in Syria? Bombing is all well and good


if there is a strategy Wholesale bombing is


not going to work. There has to be a strategy to


the end, there has to be troops Who those troops are, I don't know,


whether they be Nato troops, Russian troops, but there has to be


troops on the ground. Would you like to see Nato come


in at this stage? It is an act of war and I think Nato


has to get involved. Let's talk about this declaration of


war. David Cameron did not want to use that sentiment this morning. I


mentioned Nato, does it have any implications for Nato? Potentially.


The French president was the first to say it. It was followed up in the


French press, a headline saying that this time it was war. He can invoke


Article five of the Nato charter is the wishes, an attack on one is an


attack on all which is only done once before and that was after 9/11.


I don't think that is necessary at the moment. It might even come big


things. You will have seen at the G8 entry -- T20, Putin and Obama


talking. That was at least half an hour. Which is unusual for them. The


Prime Minister has been talking with Putin today. The Chief of defence


staff got in a bit of hot water saying that we were abandoning our


allies and that we needed to get some sort of strategy with Putin.


That is getting traction now. Nicolas Sarkozy has said it and he


might be standing again. I'm not making an argument one way or the


other but what seemed outlandish is coming into the centre. Do you


support that dialogue but you look David Cameron has met with Vladimir


Putin, they have talked about a unified response, is that the right


response and pragmatic politics? We have eight necessity to defeat Isis


and to do that you have to bring the Syrian Civil War to a conclusion


because you had to work out who in Syria will take and hold the


territory and administer it, that is hold by Isis and that means a


conversation with Putin. He and the Iranians are supporting the Syrian


regime. All of this has begun, it began in the wake of the downing of


the Russian airliner. There was a follow-up meeting in Vienna and the


conclusions from that are encouraging, about setting out


conclusions from that are international strategy and a pathway


to some resolution of the Syrian Civil War.


to some resolution of the Syrian with identifying who the terrorist


groups within Syria are so there is a process happening and we have to


get behind that and make sure the Iranians and the Saudis are part of


it. So do Turkey, as well as the Russians and the Americans.


it. So do Turkey, as well as the sticking point was that the Russians


would have two stop bombing what work colloquially known as


opposition to Bashar al-Assad full stop they want to keep him there and


Britain doesn't. stop they want to keep him there and


agreement is the political stop they want to keep him there and


elections that will involve all stop they want to keep him there and


Syrians. The Russian line is that it is for the Syrians to choose their


leader. Within an electoral and political process that is meant


leader. Within an electoral and starting on January one, with all


the international players, who all have dogs in this fight, they have


agreed to put pressure on their clients to make them sit down at the


table and begin that process of transition. Is rooting


table and begin that process of militarily possible? Yes. With or


without ground troops? That is more problematic. You have to have ground


troops. Whose troops? It'll be a conventional land to take and hold


the ground currently administered by Isis. They are running a adamant


there and controlling territory. It would be infinitely better if those


round trips come from both sides of the Comput -- those ground troops


come from both sides of the conflict and also come from Turkey, Saudi


Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, those are the countries who should be putting


together troops along with the Iraqi army.


If they can put together an operation in Yemen they can do it in


Syria. Total air supremacy, target acquisition, special forces, all the


things which will enable the conventional military operation to


be relatively straight forward in that sense against an enemy the size


and as well-equipped as Isis, if it can put together properly we can


make sure the ground troops are able to complete the operation. That is


the ideal situation. But if they are not prepared to do it we will have


to look eventually at other options. It goes straight to the Isis


ideological narrative, if it is Western Force is or Iranians forces


who are the people on the ground. Is continued British noninvolvement in


Syria in terms of bombing looking increasingly untenable Crispin? It's


an important point, the House of Commons at some point will be


asked, I hope, to approve a contribution to the land air


campaign which will take out Isis. I hope it doesn't involve British


ground troops but it should involve a more substantial British air


campaign than is being suggested. I think the House of Commons, in Askin


for right thing and this is what Britain should be doing with our


international partners. Saying it is all very well, but we have to get a


coherent international strategy together. We all agree Isis are our


enemy and must be defeated. We have all taken serious casualties. Let's


make the decisions necessary to put the strategy in place. What about


the immediate response on the continent? Agnes Poirier seeing you


cannot have more armed guards on the street, you cannot prevent those


kind of attacks. What about Schengen? What about the EU? Has it


been exposed in a way which is irreparable? It was already


suffering hammer blows because of the refugee crisis and this is a


greater blow from which it might not recover and of course the refugee


story has not finished. The causality is not yet established but


IS did announce they were going to send people with refugees. I don't


think there is not a great move deal more which can be done than which is


already being done. Poland said they would not get involved taking


refugees after this because they have seen what can happen. The whole


thing is coming down. Militarily there will be our response and IS


will lose, the same way that Al-Qaeda dead and prevent replaced


by IS. But they will be followed by another group unless you deal with


it at the root. Accept that the ideology, there has to be a


softening of some of the teachings that these people get. Crispin


Blunt, thank you very much, Tim, you are staying with us.


Well, the attacks in Paris will undoubtedly have implications


The Prime Minister has called for the


the British public to show "resolve" in the wake of the terror attacks.


Mr Cameron promised extra funding for the UK's security services to


help combat Islamic State terrorism, revealing that seven plots has been


Let's talk now to our political correspondent Chris Mason.


Can you elaborate on the new measures which are being brought in?


The Prime Minister has given a press conference in the last hour in


Turkey at the G20 summit before flying back to London. What did we


learn? He says there have been agreements at the summit over


intelligence sharing and cutting off the financing for terrorist groups.


He says there will be a big increase in the amount of money spent in the


UK on aviation security and for the first time cooperations amongst G20


countries on that theme. They have also fast forwarded an announcement


on boosts to the intelligence services, an extra 1900 operatives


will be recruited. That will obviously take some time before they


are up and running, trained, have been through the security checks


which will take place for anyone hired by those organisations. The


Prime Minister also making the case that in his view there is not any


border between Iraq and Syria as far as Isil are concerned so that UK


should not necessarily feel obliged to take account of that in its


bombing raids on Isil which at the moment are restricted to Iraq. But


the is a real sense from many MPs hear that they are yet to be


persuaded, particularly Jeremy Corbyn this morning making it very


clear that he sees France's additional attacks on Isil over the


weekend as potentially counter-productive. Thank you Chris


And joining us now, the Conservative MP, Oliver Dowden.


The Labour MP, Chris Matheson and, from Salford, Haras Rafiq


And Tim Marshall is still here. The seven foiled plots indicate that


Islamic State do pose a threat in the UK, are we at risk to the same


degree as brands? Yes but we are better prepared. -- as France. It is


hard to get a Kalashnikov here. You mentioned that a rocket launcher has


been found in one of the raids. Even in the 1990s French gangsters were


using rocket propelled grenades on money carriers. And they don't just


have a helmet, they have a bullet-proof vest. If the gangsters


can get Kalashnikovs so can the Islamists. They have seven borders


and have not been any checks on any of them. The UK is in a different


position. But I am pretty sure that at some point there will be an


attempt like this. But we do have, very, very good intelligence and


that is why the Prime Minister has today announced what I think is a


15% budget increase in intelligence services. This attack is almost


impossible to protect against, that is the problem? Yes, and I think


what it points to first of all is that Islamic State, if we had any


doubt, present a clear threat to our national security in this country.


We have seen these attacks on a Russian plane, on the beaches of


Tunisia, the attack in Paris. There is clearly a threat here. In


response what we need to look at is how we can help the security


services do their job. From my time working in number ten I was aware of


the number of plots which are actually foiled and we need to give


the security services the power to do that. And we need to look at how


weedy with Isis in Syria -- how we deal with. Do you agree that any


objections on Civil Liberties grounds to increasing surveillance


or current legislation by Theresa May, will fall on deaf ears? We


cannot allow a terrorist attack however dreadful to dictate


long-term policy in these areas. There have to be some changes, some


moves to bring up to date the surveillance powers of the


intelligence agencies. But we have to do that within the context of a


country which remains committed to liberty including judicial


involvement in the warrants. It appears some of the attackers were


French European citizens, some of whom were thought to have returned


from fighting in Syria or Iraq with Islamic State. The police say that


out of the 700 British people who have gone to Syria have have


returned to the country, we are at risk and we? Absolutely, people have


been talking about extremism, ten years ago we were talking about


Al-Qaeda inspired extremism, the reality is that IS, Isil and


Al-Qaeda did not inspire extremism, extremism inspired them. We are


living in a time of the global jihadists insurgency. That is not


sustainable unless there is support. We are living in a time where there


is some support for the political ideology which underpins the


particular form of extremism and theology which empowers people to


carry out these attacks. If theology which empowers people to


the lens of Isil or defeating IS as we did with


the lens of Isil or defeating IS as mentioned that we had a won the war


against Al-Qaeda, I've ever speaking to a senior politician when Osama


bin Ladin was killed and saying this is not over and he


bin Ladin was killed and saying this we have taken out the leader.


Clearly we have not. The risk is from the ideology which reads


youngsters to be brainwashed and recruited to this worldview where


their identity is no longer British or French or anything like that. It


is Islamist jihadists. That is what we need to tackle. How would you


tackle it? What would be the first thing you would do? If you see a


continuation from Al-Qaeda to thing you would do? If you see a


what would you do? One thing which has not been tried is to


what would you do? One thing which ideology. We have only had half of a


prevention strategy. We were looking to this


prevention strategy. We were looking security and I am not saying we


shouldn't. It government to protect its citizens.


But we have government to protect its citizens.


task force where we have to government to protect its citizens.


civil society coalitions, alliances to deconstruct the ideology, the


the alternatives. Have a strategy and in actual fact, the preventative


strategy for and in actual fact, the preventative


say they have been a limited by the government, they were not included


in discussions. Do you agree it has been a failure? This is something


the parameter takes very seriously. He is committed to tackling


extremism at source -- something the Prime Minister takes very seriously.


This cannot be done easily, Prime Minister takes very seriously.


are challenges as to how you best achieve this. You


are challenges as to how you best years and all we


are challenges as to how you best stream of people from Britain and


other European countries going to fight in Syria. There are two


issues, first late tackle a thing fight in Syria. There are two


firstly tackling it in this country. There is a second issue which


relates to people coming back from Syria which is more a case of how do


we monitor the people who have gone out and been radicalised and are


coming back. That is a combination of education and the security


services keeping tabs. The failure has been people going out in the


first place. Why have they been so attracted to the ideology of the


prevent strategy has been successful? You cannot expect one


strategy alone to be the cure all bullet. There are tremendous pulls


to countries like Syria where there is a missed placed romanticism,


almost as if it was taking place in the Spanish Civil War. You cannot


tackle it all at once. Are you shaking your head because you don't


think prevent has worked in anyway shape or form, or enough


understanding of the problem? If you look at a lot of the success in


terms of empowering schools to do safeguarding, it has been done this


year. Five years of the Coalition Government, there was not any, one


particular government department tasked with going out to communities


and in power voices to take on the challenge. It didn't happen. Now it


is happening so it is correct to say the prevent strategy had not worked


because we only had half a prevent strategy. Now the gap is being


filled but it is only recently where they buy minister has made some


inroads -- the Prime Minister has made some inroads. We have not


tackled the ideology that eight minority within a minority have


decided to go out to Iraq and Syria. The Prime Minister is doing it now


but we should have done it five years ago. How much responsibility


rests with the Muslim community in Britain? I don't think we are


talking about Muslim issues, Islamic State are a fascist grip and if we


understand it is a fascist ideology we can separate it entirely from


most mainstream Muslim thought. There will be some individuals out


there, hate preachers and someone who will need to be dealt with. But


the huge majority of Muslims, certainly in Chester where I know


the community, and right across, are horrified by these attacks. There is


a huge responsibility on news on committees in particular to identify


those people who are perhaps at risk, perhaps acting a little


strangely. But that could be the same of any of us looking at people


being radicalised. Do you agree, does there need to be more


responsibility from within the community to help identify people


who might be vulnerable to this sort of ideology?


If you look at the statistics of people going out to join Isil and


convicted of these attacks, it is a fallacy to say that they are not


educated, middle-class or upper middle class, 40s and percent of the


people convicted in the UK have had higher education. -- 47%. We have to


look at this, not just to the point where they become violent, we have


to look at the whole concept of totalitarianism, the idea of this


Islamist caliphate, enforcing their version of Shahril or, that is what


we need to tackle. -- sharia law. There is a whole roll for Muslims


and non-Muslims. The new community engagement Forum is not a Muslim


engagement Forum, it is a community engagement Forum with Muslims and


non-Muslims coming together to form these alliances and tackle this. It


is a problem for the whole immunity but Muslims, people like me need to


play our part -- the whole community. Tweets are coming in


saying that France will call for effective suspension of Schengen on


Friday. I'll use a prized? Not in the least -- are you surprised.


What is happening is Fortress nation state and not Fortress Europe. They


will not be a big ring around Europe, there is odd why are going


up and there are deep divisions in our heads -- there is barbed wire. I


think IS are fascists, they are Islamic fascists and I don't think


you can separate religion from it which is unpopular but a personal


belief. But they are going to lose but in the manner of them losing we


are going to divide and that is pretty sad. Thank you for joining


us. Now let's take a look


at how the political map is shaping This afternoon in the Commons,


MPs will debate plans to boost counter-terrorism


and aviation security. Tonight the Prime Minister will give


his annual speech on foreign policy at the Lord Mayor's banquet


in the City of London. And Ukip leader Nigel Farage will


also give a speech this evening, addressing the events in Paris, as


part of his "Say No to the EU" tour. On Wednesday David Cameron faces


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn across the despatch box


for our weekly dose of PMQs. And on Thursday the House of Commons


will discuss issues surrounding A debate secured by the Conservative


back-bencher Phillip Davies. And with us now,


Steve Richards from the Independent and Tim Shipman, Political Editor


of the Sunday Times. Steve Richards, David Cameron is


giving a speech on foreign policy, do you expect him to say that event


in Paris underline the case for British air strikes in Syria? He


thought before Paris, wrongly in my view, that there was a case for air


strikes. It is a statement of the obvious, if you can't get a majority


in the House of Commons, they will not put it to the house. I can't see


why these air strikes, sorry, the event in Paris on Friday, change the


essential argument. Some MPs have told me they think there is a


majority in the House of Commons for air strikes and probably was before


Paris because you have a section of the Labour Party who will back them.


He won't do it until he is sure he will win the vote and that remains


unchanged. Is there a continued campaign to get the numbers? There


were conflicting reports over the weekend, some Labour MPs said they


had not been talk to but others said they had and there was a coalition


to get support. If they make the effort, there is probably the


numbers. Michael Fallon has been getting people into the MoD,


including Labour MPs. My understanding is that will


continue. What needs to happen, and people around the Prime Minister


know this, is that he has to get stuck in himself and make this


argument. Steve said the argument hasn't changed, it probably hasn't,


and there is still big argument about whether you bomb one side of


an artificial line or the other and if it makes a difference. There is a


sense that senior people like Crispin Blunt are beginning to edge


back a bit from the precipice of a hundred patient with the PM and if


he makes the effort and gets people in himself, there is a majority -- a


confrontation. The Prime Minister is committed to having action in Syria


and we had the vote three years ago. I don't think this completely


changes the argument but it is further evidence that Isis present a


risk to national security and we should be taking efforts to deal


with it. The Prime Minister has said there is no point in having the vote


if you know the result will be the same. When the catered been made,


then we can have a vote. -- the case has been made. Should he be making


this central to his efforts if he believes in it? You heard him this


morning, he is repeating this argument that we need to deal with


Isis. That sounds like he will push but but but the Foreign Affairs


Committee report. That was not written without them being fully


aware of the risks. Paris confirms that. They were there before Paris


and they are still there. Crispin said on your programme that there


has to be some kind of coherent military strategy involving Buttin


and others before they endorse further military action -- Putin. It


is interesting that the vote three years ago was about arming Assad but


things have moved on. It is now Islamic State. There is a Civil War


with five or six different sides. I'm not clear whether arming Assad


or Islamic state or both would have to fight that Civil War or clarify


the outcome. Would you vote against the dish military... -- Berchiche


military. At a flop At the moment, I can't see how UK


bombing any side debate several -- any side of a civil war in Syria. We


can hear what Jeremy Corbyn had to say. He is echoing those sentiments.


The idea has to be, surely, a political settlement in Syria.


There are some signs that the talks over the weekend made some progress.


Iraq, Russia, USA, European Union around the table together with all


the regional governments, particularly Turkey, is key.


Who is providing safe havens for Isis?


You have to ask questions about the arms that everybody has


sold in the region, the role of Saudi Arabia in this.


I think there are some very big questions and we have to be careful.


One war doesn't necessarily bring about peace,


it often can bring more conflict and more mayhem and more loss.


That was Jeremy Corbyn. If it came to the Commons, if David Cameron


felt there were enough Labour MPs on board to back British military air


strikes, should Jeremy Corbyn give his MPs a free vote? I suspect a lot


of MPs would vote with their conscience anyway because it is a


tough decision. There will have to be negotiations and they can't


include any regard for Islamic State, there is no negotiating with


them. There has to be some kind of international settlement. The Prime


Minister has been talking to President Putin which I suspect will


help to clarify the situation but until we have that clarity about


where we are going and how to get there, I can't see I would be voting


in favour of it. That is work in progress for the Prime Minister.


Jeremy Corbyn has not changed his mind. He is making perfectly


legitimate points about a political settlement, this is something they


are trying to push forward, there is a view in the Labour Party that he


would not countenance military action under any circumstances. He


has to be careful because if he goes too far to that extreme, he will


push some of his front ventures who think there is a case for


intervention, more likely to go against him if he appears to be


digging himself into that pacifist hole. Let's talk about the measures


announced today, the extra spending towards intelligence officers.


Despite the fact that we don't have any money, we have found money for


this, rightly so? The politics with this is the politics of the long


haul, the Arno instant solutions. -- there are no instant solutions. I


think the proposals from Theresa May to give intelligence agencies access


to Internet records are legitimate. I think George Osborne's spending


review comes into this because the policing cuts as originally proposed


are not sustainable. Community policing has stopped some terrorists


from acting and yet their budget is massively under threat. All of these


things come into play. They make a difference. My doubt is whether an


immediate vote on military action in Syria is the right response. These


other things are and that includes the surveillance thing. What is the


point of spending extra money on spies and intelligence services if


you are going to cut the police? Let's wait to see what is in the


spending review. We know their budget will be cut. On the


intelligent agencies, the government has rightly prioritised this. But it


has to be in parallel, you had to beef up resources but also make sure


they have the tools and that is why it is important we press ahead with


the investigatory powers at the same time. Would you support more funding


for the police? I would support more funding for every area of public


services for the we still have an enormous budget deficit. We have to


take difficult decisions but the prioritisation of resources for the


intelligent services shows that the Prime Minister will not compromise


national security. It is not just the police, we have seen cuts to the


immigration services so we are still not sure who is coming in and out of


the country. It is a complicated picture. Looking to cut the police


in the way it seems proposed frankly would be a dangerous step. And it


would not go down well with the public. This is very dangerous


politics. We are pulling 600 watts, -- following 600 plots. If the Prime


Minister wants to use his political capital on the back of Paris he


would be better advised to use it pushing through these surveillance


laws and beefing up the nub of people who can track down the


perpetrators of these acts. The other argument we might start to see


is about armed police. Every single French policeman was armed and they


could respond relatively quickly. Could we really respond that quickly


on the streets of London? Should we have more armed police on the


streets? Again, in the context of budget cuts, it is a tough question


to ask. The training has to be right, they have do have regular


access to continuing training, it is a major step to make it if it


reassures the public, it is something that can be looked at.


Improving intelligence might be a better way forward.


The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.


I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big


He's in an exotic land. In the far reaches of northern Europe.


A place of unbelievable history, myth and legend.


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