17/11/2015 Daily Politics


17/11/2015

Jo Coburn is joined by Nazir Afzal, the former chief crown prosecutor for north west England to discuss the latest news and debate from Westminster.


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Transcript


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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:38.

There's more money for the spies at GCHQ

:00:39.:00:41.

in the wake of the Paris terror attacks.

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But as George Osborne agrees billions of pounds worth

:00:44.:00:46.

of cuts elsewhere how hard will he hit the police budget?

:00:47.:00:50.

There's trouble brewing for Jeremy Corbyn as he questions the

:00:51.:00:53.

right of the British police to shoot to kill a heavily-armed terrorist

:00:54.:00:57.

and wonders whether the air strike targetting Jihadi John was legal.

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Is this how a Labour Leader should react to a terrorist outrage?

:01:02.:01:06.

At least one of the Paris attackers is alleged

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to have entered the European Union posing as a Syrian refugee.

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Is it time to close the EU's borders in the face of the terrorist threat?

:01:12.:01:16.

And how to counter extremism here in the UK.

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How do we guard against the threat of more home-grown terrorism?

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And with us for the whole of the programme today is the former

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Chief Crown Prosecutor in the North West of England, Nazir Afzal.

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First this morning, how should an opposition leader

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react to events like the terrorist atrocity in Paris?

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Well, yesterday, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

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did a round of broadcast interviews in which he was asked about security

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But some of his comments have gone down badly with his own MPs.

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In a BBC interview yesterday, Mr Corbyn warned I was not happy with

:02:04.:02:09.

the police policy of shoot-to-kill with a terror attack. He warned any

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such policy could be dangerous and counterproductive. In a separate

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interview, the Labour Leader questioned the legality of the drone

:02:18.:02:21.

strike which is thought to have killed the terrorist known as Jihadi

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John. He said, I'm awaiting an explanation where the legal basis

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was for that incident. Mr Corbyn's links to Stop the War Coalition.

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Particularly after the article at the weekend in which a group

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insisted Paris had reaped the whirlwind of western support for

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extremist violence in the middle east. Last night, an MP told the BBC

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I've never seen a PLP meeting with that ding rye of discontent voiced.

:02:54.:02:57.

Question after question, each devastating. He was reported to have

:02:58.:03:02.

been criticised by prominent MPs on shoot-to-kill. Dan Jarvis on his

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Jihadi John comments. What he said about reconsidering air strikes in

:03:07.:03:11.

Iraq by John Woodcock. To add to the Labour Leader's woes. This morning,

:03:12.:03:16.

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn said it is perfectly reasonable for

:03:17.:03:20.

police to shoot those who are a threat to life.

:03:21.:03:22.

She is now looking at ways of tackling Europe's refugee crisis.

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You reportedly asked Jeremy Corbyn last night for reassurance the

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Labour Party would continue to support shoot-to-kill. That means

:03:36.:03:38.

the police can shoot terrorists when they pose an immediate threat to

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life. Has he given you that assurance? My point is we've a long

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standing legal framework which allows for the use of lethal force

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in situations where you have imminent threat to life. Terrorists

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on the streets killing people. That, I think, that legal framework is

:03:56.:04:00.

important and needs to continue. I understand there's been reports in

:04:01.:04:03.

the papers today Jeremy has confirmed he also supports that now.

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I think, obviously I disagree with what he said yesterday. He said I'm

:04:09.:04:14.

not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general. It is quite

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dangerous and can often be counterproductive. Was he wrong?

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You've very serious threats. If people are being killed, you saw,

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think of what happened in the Bataclan. If you think about the

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kinds of terrorists we are dealing with, suicide pommers and so on,

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there are times when the police need to make mayor own operational

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decision -- suicide bombers. The police have to make the decisions

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about those circumstances and when in those circumstances lethal force

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is justified. I think everybody would expect that when you want to

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protect innocent lives and are dealing with this kind of threat.

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Understanding everyone's confirmed that continues to to be our

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position. It needs to be. Just to be clear, in your mind, Jeremy Corbyn,

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has he personally said to you, Yvette Cooper, you wanted a

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reassurance about this, I do support the police's shoot-to-kill policy in

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those circumstances? No, I haven't spoken to him today. Would you like

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that reassurance in such a sensitive time. If there was any people were

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misconstruing what he meant that he's clear about it? It is good to

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have clarity. But, let's be honest, Jo, this is so important and so

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serious I don't want this to be about who said what to who. He's the

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leader of Her Majesty's opposition. My understanding is this remains the

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Labour Party's policy. I'm clear it has to remain Labour's policy

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supporting the police and security services in a very difficult job

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which they need to be able to do to keep us all safe. There are always

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safeguards with the use of lethal force. There have to be

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investigations whenever it's used, when that happens. You have to be

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able to keep people safe. It is important that we should continue to

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support that. Hilary Benn said this morning. Shoot-to-kill policy was

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perfectly reasonable. In your mind, they are now one, oven though 24

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hours ago, the Shadow Foreign Secretary and the Labour Leader

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seemed to hold different view points? I'm not a member of the

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Shadow Cabinet. I can't speak for Jeremy on this. You heard those two

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views? You've heard my view clearly. Jeremy Corbyn also came under fire

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last night at the meeting of Labour MPs because of hi associations with

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the stop of war coalition. There was a recent blog post now deleted

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saying Paris was reaping the whirlwind of western foreign policy.

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Jeremy Corbyn was chair of the Stop the War Coalition. Should he

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distance himself from stop the war? What they said was appalling.

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Clearly, nobody thinks it was Paris or France that was responsible for

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what happened. It was terrorists who were responsible. At a time when so

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many people are grieving for those they have lost and for the attack to

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our way of life as well. I think it is really important we show

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solidarity for the people of Paris and France. That's what the Labour

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Party was doing yesterday in Parliament. That's what people

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across Britain will be doing tonight when we have the England v France

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game as well. Should he distance himself further? He's due to speak

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at a Christmas fund-raising for Stop the War Coalition. It's not what I

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would do. Jeremy has to speak for himself. Sure, but as a member of

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the Labour parliamentary party, are you happy to see him speak for Stop

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the War Coalition? Jo, I don't think anybody should be associated with

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statements like that. They are appalling. There is a wider issue

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about the very serious threat in terms of extremism and the challenge

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from Isis to Europe and Britain and how we respond. We have to respond

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by having stronger security. That sense of solidarity. Not allowing

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terrorists to divide us. Not allowing them to pick us apart. They

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want to sew fear, division and hatred. That's the real challenge.

:08:25.:08:29.

Europe has a lot more to do to be able to respond to this threat. As

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you say, you want to see a united front in terms of the response to

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what happened in Paris and to terrorism around the world. What do

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you make then of Jeremy Corbyn's statement it would have been far

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better if Jihadi John had been arrested rather than hit by a drone

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strike? We know in these circumstances, it wasn't possible to

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arrest him. Was that statement naive in your mind or misguided? I think,

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Jo, there's a wider issue here about what it is that Europe needs to do.

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That is what we should be talking about. Further security measures

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that need to be taken, the support the Government needs to put in place

:09:10.:09:15.

and is rightly doing in terms of support for the intelligence and

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security agencies. They need to go further in terms of support for

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neighbourhood policing. That local intelligence is immensely important

:09:26.:09:29.

and prevention work. The scale of cuts to policing would be the wrong

:09:30.:09:33.

approach. I hoe they are now rethinking that. This had is the

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wider European co-operation that needs to take place. Including

:09:39.:09:41.

dealing with the refer ghee crisis which is being exploited by

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terrorists as well. Right, but, it does come back to the leader of

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opposition being clear and representing the views of the

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parliamentary party. Are the events in Paris likely to change your

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party's position, or should they, on air strikes in Syria? I think the

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thing we've still not seen from the Government is actually any proposal

:10:06.:10:11.

on Syria. I've backed and I think the Labour Party is right to back,

:10:12.:10:17.

the air strikes at the request of the democratically elected Iraqi

:10:18.:10:20.

Government against Isis in Iraq. The challenge with Syria is it is much

:10:21.:10:24.

more complicated because of President Assad and many of the

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refugees are also fleeing from Assad. It is clear the Prime

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Minister is not going to bring forward a proposal until and unless

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he has the support of enough MPs, not only on his own side but

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particularly from Labour. Should Labour now get behind some sort of

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proposal or not if it comes forward to bomb IS in Syria? I think it

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entirely doo depends on what the proposal is. We've not seen a

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proposal. You have to look at the consequences of any proposal. Have a

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comprehensive strategy to deal with the conflict, the wider civil war in

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Syria. We've not seen that. We are still waiting for the Government to

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come forward with any proposals. Should be it be a free vote? Depends

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on the proposal. Many of us will make our decisions based on what is

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the right thing to do. What was the atmosphere like? We've heard from

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the Labour MPs after that meeting in the House of Commons. Some of the

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backbenchers felt it was the worst meeting they'd ever witnessed in

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terms of response to Jeremy Corbyn's views on Jihadi John, talking about

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shoot-to-kill and on air strikes in Syria. What do you say? I think, if

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this is a meeting for the parliamentary Labour Party that the

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press are not invited to. But Labour MPs come out and... I'm not talking

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about the details. I've told you my views on the issues around the use

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of Leith at force in the face of a terrorist threat, you have to be

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strong and firm. And the issues I've disafreed with Jeremy on. I can tell

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you that. It would not be right for me to talk about the kinds of

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meetings and discussions that take place. Again, I still come back to,

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I think, the wider issue for us as a country. This is not simply about

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one meeting of a Parliamentary Labour Party. This is the wider

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challenge for Britain and for Europe which I don't think we are yet

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meeting and yet responding to given the pressures we face. It will lead

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to the Conservative charge saying Labour cannot be trusted to keeping

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the country safe and that will stick according to the Prime Minister,

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George Osborne as long as Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour? I don't think

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that is the view of the Labour Party. Yesterday, you heard Andy

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burn hum responding to -- Andy Burnham responding to Theresa May

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about her support for the security agencies. We'll stand firm with the

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Government about that. We have to. It is about making people safe and

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keeping them safe. Part of that is about standing up against the

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divisions the terrorists seek to sew. Making sure you can take action

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to prevent extremism and terrorism. You mentioned the cuts to police

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funding and extra spending going to spies and intellingence services.

:13:21.:13:26.

George Osborne said he'll double the funding against cybercrime. Should

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Labour match that pledge? Yes, absolutely right to. This is the new

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kind of threat that we also face in terms of the cyber attack. It is an

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important threat to Britain. I think the wider thing about making sure

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you have that intelligence about where imflint threats might be --

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imminent threats might be. That's about sharing information across

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Europe. What do you make of Nigel Farage's comments last night? That

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the UK Muslim population has conflicted royalties? It is an

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appalling thing to say. The Muslim community were one of the first to

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be out condemning the appalling bash rich in Paris. -- barberism in

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Paris. Muslims in Beirut who have experienced the brunt of the Isis

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attack and brutality, many of whom are fleeing from that brutality as

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well. It is Muslim parents in Britain who are seeking to make sure

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that their children are not being groomed and radicalised as well.

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Isis is a perversion of Islam. I think the problem with what Nigel

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Farage said is, this is playing into the hands of extremists by going

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along this track of trying to divide us and pit us against each other

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when we should stand firm against such extremism. Just to go back to

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the initial questions on shoot-to-kill. Are you clear in your

:14:56.:15:01.

mind now with what has been said by Labour, they are happy to support

:15:02.:15:05.

the shoot-to-kill policy in general? I agree with Yvette. The view, I've

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spent 25 years telling police how they should behave. Their

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operational matters are up to them. We have the best armed officers in

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the world. They rarely use firearms. They should be doing their job, awe

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Lou them without politicians interfering in their jobs. What

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Yvette said about terrorism, set to divide, we need clarity from the

:15:33.:15:35.

Labour Party about what they want to do on this subject. These terrorists

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don't represent Islam or anybody. We need Labour Party to say this is

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something we should do about them. Now, Belgium has raised

:15:46.:15:49.

its terror alert this morning as the hunt continues for the surviving

:15:50.:15:52.

perpetrators of Friday's attack in Paris and their accomplices. The

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Government here is setting out its In a speech at the Mansion House

:15:55.:15:57.

in the City of London last night, the Prime Minister said Britain

:15:58.:16:02.

must summon the spirit of World War II if it is to defeat what

:16:03.:16:04.

he called the Isil thugs. It's not just about the amount of

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money we spend or the size of our forces, it's also about our ability

:16:08.:16:13.

to deploy them quickly, with the We've seen how vital drones are

:16:14.:16:16.

in the fight against Isil. So, with this extra money,

:16:17.:16:22.

we're doubling our fleet of drones. We know we need the ability

:16:23.:16:26.

to carry out air strikes. So this money will provide

:16:27.:16:32.

for more fighter aircraft. We want to increase the capabilities

:16:33.:16:34.

of our brilliant special forces. There will be

:16:35.:16:37.

a ?2 billion programme of new We will maintain our continuous

:16:38.:16:40.

at sea nuclear deterrent. We'll also invest in

:16:41.:16:46.

a new generation of cyber defences to block and disrupt attacks before

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they can harm our United Kingdom. This morning, the Chancellor, George

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Osborne, has been visiting GCHQ in Cheltenham, where he's been warning

:16:56.:17:00.

against the danger of so-called Islamic State launching a cyber

:17:01.:17:05.

attack, and promised millions of pounds of extra funding

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for the security services Isil's murderous brutality has

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a strong digital element. At a time when so many others are

:17:10.:17:36.

using the internet to enhance freedom and give expression to

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liberal values and creativity, Isil are already using

:17:40.:17:41.

the internet for hideous propaganda purposes, for radicalisation,

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for operational planning too. They have not so far been able to

:17:46.:17:47.

use it to kill people by attacking our infrastructure

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through cyber attack. They do not yet have

:17:51.:17:52.

that capability. and we know they're doing

:17:53.:17:54.

their best to build it. So when we talk about tackling Isil,

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that means tackling their cyber threat as well

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as the threat of their guns And earlier this morning,

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the Chancellor announced that he has provisionally agreed cuts with

:18:03.:18:07.

another seven government departments ahead

:18:08.:18:09.

of next week's spending review. Those are the Cabinet Office,

:18:10.:18:14.

the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Offices,

:18:15.:18:17.

HM Revenue and Customs and both the Work and Pensions and Energy

:18:18.:18:21.

and Climate Change departments. They've all agreed to reduce

:18:22.:18:26.

spending by 6% a year which adds up to a real-term

:18:27.:18:30.

reduction of 21% by 2019/20. The Chancellor has now reached

:18:31.:18:37.

provisional agreements with over half

:18:38.:18:40.

of Whitehall departments totalling more than ?4 billion of savings

:18:41.:18:43.

by the end of the Parliament. And Adam Fleming has more

:18:44.:18:48.

on the Chancellor's announcement. So, is he well on the way to getting

:18:49.:19:00.

the savings he wants? Let's look at the numbers. As you said, the

:19:01.:19:04.

Chancellor has now reached a preliminary agreements of about ?4

:19:05.:19:08.

billion worth of savings. But he said earlier this year that he wants

:19:09.:19:12.

to reach a total of ?20 billion of savings by 2020. So far be it from

:19:13.:19:17.

me to say how he is doing, but let's compare the four we have got with

:19:18.:19:21.

the 20 wants to get at the end of this process. You're right that even

:19:22.:19:26.

though he has settled with more than half of the government departments

:19:27.:19:30.

in Whitehall, in 11 out of 20, that means they're still some big

:19:31.:19:34.

spenders who he has not done a deal with - the Home Office, the MoD, the

:19:35.:19:39.

health department, the NHS budget, which he says he will increase, but

:19:40.:19:43.

we are not sure by how much and when. And as usual with the spending

:19:44.:19:48.

review, we are getting big numbers, but not a lot of detail. For

:19:49.:19:51.

example, the Chancellor was saying today that the money saved by HMRC

:19:52.:19:56.

will come from the digitisation of tax collection. No more detail than

:19:57.:20:00.

that. Interestingly, today shows that there was an end to the dispute

:20:01.:20:04.

between George Osborne and Ian Duncan Smith. The welfare secretary

:20:05.:20:08.

was concerned that his budget for universal credit was going to be

:20:09.:20:12.

ready to pay for the delay in tax credits, and he threatened to

:20:13.:20:14.

resign. It looks like that threat has gone away, because they have

:20:15.:20:19.

done a deal. There was also an announcement of more money for the

:20:20.:20:23.

intelligence services, which has come after the Paris attacks. But

:20:24.:20:28.

cuts to police funding? Yes, the police forces in England are

:20:29.:20:32.

expecting big cuts to their budget. Bernard Hogan-Howe, the commission

:20:33.:20:35.

of the Met, is saying he expects cuts over the next five years of up

:20:36.:20:41.

to ?800 million, which means he would have to sack maybe 5000 police

:20:42.:20:45.

officers in London, which sounds like a lot. That is how the Police

:20:46.:20:50.

Federation see it. They represent the rank and file and they have

:20:51.:20:53.

released a statement saying that cuts of that level would jeopardise

:20:54.:20:57.

their ability to protect the public in the UK in the event of a Parisian

:20:58.:21:04.

style terrorist attack. This issue is starting to creep into the House

:21:05.:21:08.

of Commons. Yesterday, after the Home Secretary made her statement

:21:09.:21:13.

about the Paris attacks, a couple of Tory backbenchers started making

:21:14.:21:15.

noises along those lines, that they were worried about the budgets for

:21:16.:21:20.

things like community policing. It was interesting that when George

:21:21.:21:23.

Osborne was answering questions after his speech at GCHQ today, he

:21:24.:21:27.

kept quiet about the idea of whether he would be protecting or cutting

:21:28.:21:28.

police budgets. The Conservative MP, Tom Tugenhadt,

:21:29.:21:29.

is here with us now. Let's talk about those potential

:21:30.:21:46.

cuts to policing, which Bernard Hogan-Howe says would cut front line

:21:47.:21:50.

policing. Is that what we should be doing at a time like this? It is

:21:51.:21:54.

staggering. I have worked with police up and down the country and I

:21:55.:21:57.

have worked with the prosecution service for 25 years, and all those

:21:58.:22:00.

agencies Arlene. There is nothing more they can give. -- and they

:22:01.:22:07.

Arlene. The back-office operation has been decimated. What were

:22:08.:22:11.

talking about extremism, the best eyes and ears of the community

:22:12.:22:15.

officers, the PCSOs, and I'm hearing that all of these police officers

:22:16.:22:19.

are talking about cutting those numbers. That is putting people at

:22:20.:22:24.

risk. We cannot have a situation where public safety is diminished in

:22:25.:22:30.

this way. According to Nazir Afzal, if those who are the eyes and ears

:22:31.:22:33.

on the street time when terrorism is on heightened alert, it would be a

:22:34.:22:36.

mistake. Should your government be cutting police numbers? We must work

:22:37.:22:41.

together on this. Terrorism is not an issue solely for the security

:22:42.:22:46.

forces, be it the military or GCHQ or the police, nor is it the job of

:22:47.:22:50.

the community alone. It is the job of everyone to work together. What

:22:51.:22:56.

is particularly important is, when young men, and sadly, it is

:22:57.:23:02.

particularly young men, are getting radicalised in different parts of

:23:03.:23:04.

our community, it is essential that community leaders are families,

:23:05.:23:09.

relatives and friends highlight this. There is no way we can put a

:23:10.:23:15.

policeman on every street corner, and nor would we want to. So we have

:23:16.:23:19.

to engage with the community more closely, and we have to remind the

:23:20.:23:23.

community that they also have a responsibility in protecting their

:23:24.:23:26.

young men and women from these people. The most trusted police

:23:27.:23:30.

officers are those who work in those communities. People do not win

:23:31.:23:37.

counterterrorism helplines, they talk to an officer that they

:23:38.:23:41.

recognise and trust. If they are not there, we will not get that

:23:42.:23:46.

information. They are there. But you are going to cut them if the

:23:47.:23:49.

proposal goes through that George Osborne has put through the cuts to

:23:50.:23:53.

unprotected departments like the Home Office. Should they be cut? I

:23:54.:23:58.

am not going to tell the police commissioners for the whole of

:23:59.:24:00.

England, Wales and Scotland how to do their jobs. It is for them to

:24:01.:24:05.

prioritise. I am asking you about George Osborne. You are asking if

:24:06.:24:10.

they should cut individual officers. It is not for me to tell police

:24:11.:24:15.

commissioners how to do their jobs. That is why we have police and crime

:24:16.:24:18.

commissioners who will be elected next year to prioritise the

:24:19.:24:24.

allocation of resources. Nazir is right that community engagement is

:24:25.:24:27.

the front line of defence against terrorism, but that is not alone.

:24:28.:24:31.

The community police officers stand with the community. The community

:24:32.:24:37.

have a fundamental response ability, because we police by

:24:38.:24:42.

content in this country. We are not a bitter Tory or state. We need

:24:43.:24:47.

community leaders, be they imams or leaders of community groups or be

:24:48.:24:50.

they family and friends, we need that to be the eyes and ears,

:24:51.:24:53.

because they are protecting themselves and us as citizens. Is

:24:54.:24:57.

that because there will not be enough police? I must get an answer

:24:58.:25:01.

from you on whether you think, in the wake of the Paris attacks,

:25:02.:25:05.

should Lord Osborne rethink his cuts to police funding? I have taken your

:25:06.:25:10.

point that it is up to police commissioners to decide response

:25:11.:25:13.

booties, but Bernard Hogan-Howe says he would have to cut up to 5000

:25:14.:25:19.

officers. He did not say that, the federation said that. It is up to

:25:20.:25:24.

Bernard Hogan-Howe. On LBC, he said it is a massive change and as a

:25:25.:25:27.

result, I worry about the safety of London. We think we may lose up to

:25:28.:25:32.

8000 police officers. I did not hear that interview, I only heard it

:25:33.:25:37.

reported by the federation. It is up to Bernard Hogan-Howe to decide how

:25:38.:25:42.

to allocate the resources he has. I will not lecture him on how to do

:25:43.:25:46.

it. I welcome that he said he will put more police on the streets of

:25:47.:25:49.

London, and I particularly welcome the investment in intelligence,

:25:50.:25:54.

because if you want to address this, intelligence is fundamental. Why is

:25:55.:25:57.

it more important for intelligence to get funding than the police on

:25:58.:26:01.

the streets? It is a combination. But you are giving more to one and

:26:02.:26:07.

taking money from the other. No, we are addressing different aspects.

:26:08.:26:10.

The intelligence services have been underinvested in and I welcome the

:26:11.:26:14.

Chancellor's investment, because a lot of this problem is coming from

:26:15.:26:17.

overseas. We have spoken about Syria in the past. The actions of foreign

:26:18.:26:24.

criminals in lecturing, preaching and spreading hate through the cyber

:26:25.:26:30.

highways is a serious threat. I can only take from you that you agree

:26:31.:26:33.

that there should be some cuts and that the police will have to manage

:26:34.:26:37.

their resources. One of the points that Tom Tugenhadt said was that

:26:38.:26:41.

even if you put a lease officer on every corner of every street -- a

:26:42.:26:46.

police officer, they had lots in Paris before the attacks, but it

:26:47.:26:50.

will not stop this sort of terrorism if they are soft targets. Well, they

:26:51.:26:56.

have to be lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time. But it is a

:26:57.:26:59.

postcode lottery. In Bristol, they have done good work in local

:27:00.:27:05.

community engagement. One terrorist was grassed up by the local mosque.

:27:06.:27:10.

That is the kind of information that comes from having good

:27:11.:27:13.

relationships. If we do not have the officers to have those relationships

:27:14.:27:17.

with, I worry about the future. You make it sound as though the only

:27:18.:27:21.

person with whom the mosque can have the relationship is the police.

:27:22.:27:25.

Nobody is talking about removing that. There is a series of people

:27:26.:27:34.

with whom we engage every day. I have people coming into my

:27:35.:27:36.

constituency surgery, raising different issues. Raising issues

:27:37.:27:43.

like this is essential across the community. But intelligence has to

:27:44.:27:48.

turn into evidence. Somebody cannot just say, -- somebody has to say, I

:27:49.:27:55.

have seen something, I will raise evidence against that individual. It

:27:56.:27:59.

cannot happen if there are fewer police. I do not accept that.

:28:00.:28:01.

The UK Parliament's all-party group for Kurdistan has been visiting

:28:02.:28:04.

the Peshmerga in Iraq just a few miles from the front line

:28:05.:28:07.

The Labour MP John Woodcock was part of that group of MPs.

:28:08.:28:12.

We will speak to him in a moment, but first let's take a look

:28:13.:28:15.

It's been a real privilege to be taken out here by the Commander

:28:16.:28:21.

They make the point to us that they are getting essential air support

:28:22.:28:28.

from the UK, from the RAF, and training and advice from the UK

:28:29.:28:35.

But they are desperately short of kit.

:28:36.:28:38.

They know that if they fail in this fight and Daesh continue,

:28:39.:28:44.

ultimately, it will be foreign fighters who will

:28:45.:28:46.

be going back to the UK to take what they've learned here, the extremism,

:28:47.:28:50.

military tactics, back to countries such as the UK.

:28:51.:29:00.

It's a huge privilege to be able to see this, but the UK

:29:01.:29:05.

That is the stark message they have asked us to take back to the UK.

:29:06.:29:12.

Remind us who the Kurds are and the areas of land they inhabit and the

:29:13.:29:22.

fronts they are fighting is on? The Iraqi Kurds are in the north of

:29:23.:29:28.

Iraq. They were systematically persecuted in the most vile ways by

:29:29.:29:35.

Saddam Hussein. After the liberation, is based in it, of Iraq

:29:36.:29:41.

from Saddam, there were given a semi-autonomous devolved region

:29:42.:29:47.

within Iraq. Their military force, the Peshmerga, are the troops who

:29:48.:29:54.

are fighting. They are a proficient force and it was a privilege to see

:29:55.:29:57.

what they were doing on the front line. I hope that broadcasting what

:29:58.:30:05.

we saw back to the UK helps dispel the understandable misconception

:30:06.:30:08.

that there is nothing going on in Iraq except for the odd bomb being

:30:09.:30:16.

dropped by the RAF. You could see that just a few kilometres away from

:30:17.:30:22.

the Daesh front line, the Peshmerga rely on the protection in the air

:30:23.:30:27.

cover that the RAF give. They are fighting a difficult fight and they

:30:28.:30:32.

hope for more from the UK and other nations.

:30:33.:30:36.

We're going on to the proposal air strikes if it comes before the

:30:37.:30:43.

Commons in a moment. The Kurds neat more kit. David Cameron said last

:30:44.:30:47.

year Britain would arm the Kurds. Did you see evidence of that? They

:30:48.:30:51.

have some. But the message again and again was they are really lacking.

:30:52.:30:57.

Actually, they say to us in stark terms, we are grateful for the UK's

:30:58.:31:05.

involvement. They kept repeating how grateful they were. That we were

:31:06.:31:10.

part of the coalition to defeat Saddam Hussein. But actually, the UK

:31:11.:31:15.

is giving amongst the least in terms of resources for their fight. I

:31:16.:31:19.

think the reluctance from the Foreign Office, from the UK

:31:20.:31:26.

Government, is that it doesn't end up fuelling destab I willisation in

:31:27.:31:31.

the region. Particularly Turkey. When you look into this closely, you

:31:32.:31:38.

need to be honest, there isn't really a functioning state called

:31:39.:31:43.

Iraq at the moment. That has broken down into a Baghdad Government run

:31:44.:31:49.

by a Shia force which isn't representing the Sunni and the

:31:50.:31:53.

Kurdish areas. There does need to be change. In the near term, I think

:31:54.:31:58.

it's so important these people, they make the case, they're fighting on

:31:59.:32:03.

all our behalf. If they don't win this fight, then foreign fighters

:32:04.:32:06.

can go back into countries like the UK and we need to support them

:32:07.:32:10.

better than we have been doing. What about another vote in the House of

:32:11.:32:13.

Commons on air strikes over Syria? Would you like to see that brought

:32:14.:32:17.

forward now? Iity it's important we do more. I've always said being in

:32:18.:32:25.

Iraq, being part of that operation, but not going over what is a purely

:32:26.:32:32.

theoretical border, is illogical. We said it is legal to do so. Provide

:32:33.:32:38.

logistical support. Where it is important David Cameron comes

:32:39.:32:41.

forward today, hopefully, as soon as possible, is in the sense of how

:32:42.:32:48.

this military involvement fits in with a wider diplomatic engagement

:32:49.:32:52.

where we cannot allow to happen to beat back Daesh but leave the vacuum

:32:53.:32:58.

which we left that Daesh was able to fill in the Sunni regions of Iraq.

:32:59.:33:03.

To be clear, you would back a proposal that David Cameron brought

:33:04.:33:07.

forward to say we need to use British military force, not much of

:33:08.:33:13.

it, but British military force to bomb IS is Syria or do agree with

:33:14.:33:19.

Hilary Benn about having strict pre-conditions before supporting it

:33:20.:33:23.

You would have to see the exact detail. My sense is yes, I would

:33:24.:33:30.

back even that limited increased incursion by the RAF strikes over

:33:31.:33:37.

the border into and ultimate targeting Raqa which is the head of

:33:38.:33:47.

extremists, the HQ. I think many of my colleagues will want to see more

:33:48.:33:52.

in terms of diplomatic effort before they do that. I want to see it as

:33:53.:33:59.

well. But even if it is the limited proposal, there will be several of

:34:00.:34:03.

us whether will be prepared to back that. Are there any circumstances in

:34:04.:34:08.

which the UK can participate without a Commons vote? That is a wider

:34:09.:34:16.

question. That will have consequences right across a number

:34:17.:34:20.

of military involvement. I think for this engagement, clearly, I don't

:34:21.:34:25.

think there is a prospect of that. Whether we would relook after this

:34:26.:34:29.

about the balance that has changed over the last ten years, well, that

:34:30.:34:33.

may be worth doing. Clearly, the Prime Minister is clear that he will

:34:34.:34:37.

not proceed in a substantive way with direct involvement without a

:34:38.:34:41.

vote. That's the reality we are looking at. What do you make of the

:34:42.:34:45.

Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn's association with stop of the war

:34:46.:34:50.

coalition? There seems to be unhappiness from some of your

:34:51.:34:55.

colleagues particularly following the blog post where Stop the War

:34:56.:34:59.

Coalition were reaping the whirlwind of return foreign policy. What would

:35:00.:35:03.

you say about Jeremy Corbyn's association with Stop the War

:35:04.:35:06.

Coalition? I've always been troubled by his association. That blog post

:35:07.:35:11.

was striking not from the fact it was coming from left field and

:35:12.:35:14.

unusual from the organisation. That is the message they've given all

:35:15.:35:18.

through. We have to call this for what. Blaming the people of France

:35:19.:35:23.

or the French Government or the UK Government for the killing of French

:35:24.:35:31.

or UK civilians is akin at the time of the Second World War, blaming the

:35:32.:35:35.

Jewish people for their deaths under the Nazis. It is that serious. I

:35:36.:35:38.

really hope Jeremy and others will make clear they will not accept any

:35:39.:35:42.

of that sentiment within the British Labour Party. John Woodcock, thank

:35:43.:35:45.

you. Now, the Home Secretary,

:35:46.:35:46.

Theresa May, has said Britain would take 20,000 Syrian refugees over

:35:47.:35:49.

the next five years, and Our correspondent

:35:50.:35:51.

James Shaw is there. James, can you hear me? Yes, I can.

:35:52.:36:08.

We expect the refugees to arrive at Glasgow airport within the next

:36:09.:36:13.

couple of hours. A plane will touchdown on the apron behind me.

:36:14.:36:18.

The refugees will be kept airside. They won't come through to the

:36:19.:36:21.

terminal. They will be processed in a lounge here. We expect there will

:36:22.:36:27.

be representatives of about five our six Scottish local authorities who

:36:28.:36:30.

will take them to a hotel, brief them and then take them on to their

:36:31.:36:35.

perhaps long-term accommodation. But it's being done in this discreet way

:36:36.:36:42.

because these are deemed to be vulnerable people under this

:36:43.:36:44.

vulnerable persons resettlement scheme. We will not see them in

:36:45.:36:48.

public at this stage. They will be allowed to start their new lives in

:36:49.:36:51.

the UK discreetly and out of the public eye. Yes, difficult, of

:36:52.:36:56.

course, in the wake of what's been going on over the past few days. Are

:36:57.:37:03.

more expected? More Syrian refugees from those camps expected in

:37:04.:37:09.

Glasgow? That's right. We're expecting between 300 and 400 before

:37:10.:37:14.

Christmas. That's a pretty big proportion of the total of 1,000 for

:37:15.:37:18.

the UK before Christmas. Probably over a third will come to Scottish

:37:19.:37:23.

local authorities. I was talking to people in the terminal building a

:37:24.:37:27.

couple of minutes ago, asking them what they thought about the arrival

:37:28.:37:32.

of these refugees. There was a quite a lot of scepticism on the grounds

:37:33.:37:37.

where we hear people complaining about schools and hospitals being

:37:38.:37:41.

overstretched at the moment. There was that argument, but also concerns

:37:42.:37:46.

over what happened in Paris. People worrying who is coming into the

:37:47.:37:50.

country. It is the case these people, these refugees, have been

:37:51.:37:55.

given a double security screening before they arrive in the UK. So

:37:56.:37:59.

clearly the authorities are content that they do not represent any sort

:38:00.:38:03.

of security threat. James Shaw, you that.

:38:04.:38:05.

Now, lying next to the body of one of the men who blew themselves up

:38:06.:38:08.

outside the Stade de France last Friday was a Syrian passport.

:38:09.:38:10.

It belonged to a man who Greek officials have confirmed passed

:38:11.:38:13.

through Greece along with the thousands of migrants.

:38:14.:38:16.

So-called Islamic State had threatened to place jihadis amongst

:38:17.:38:20.

fleeing refugees and some, including Ukip leader Nigel Farage,

:38:21.:38:24.

believe this is exactly what has happened and that this security

:38:25.:38:28.

This dream of the free movement of people,

:38:29.:38:33.

this dream for others of the Schengen area

:38:34.:38:37.

hasn't just meant the free movement of people,

:38:38.:38:40.

it's meant the free movement of Kalashnikov rifles.

:38:41.:38:42.

It's meant the free movement of terrorists.

:38:43.:38:45.

And it's meant the free movement of jihadists.

:38:46.:38:48.

And it's time that democratic groups in Britain and right across Europe

:38:49.:38:53.

stood up and fought and gained in strength and said

:38:54.:38:56.

"An end to this. We want back border controls.

:38:57.:38:59.

Here now is Peter Whittle, the Ukip candidate for London Mayor.

:39:00.:39:08.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is Nigel Farage cynically using the

:39:09.:39:16.

Parisse tax to try to forward Ukip's domestic agenda? Absolutely not.

:39:17.:39:21.

There's no question about this. This is a hugely political issue. So,

:39:22.:39:27.

political response is necessary. I find it extraordinary people say

:39:28.:39:31.

that this is being exploitative. Nigel's speech last night, I was

:39:32.:39:36.

there, was hugely nuanced and positive in some of the messages it

:39:37.:39:40.

put out. People want and need to talk about this situation. There

:39:41.:39:45.

were 1,000 people there last night. Everyone wants to talk about one of

:39:46.:39:50.

the most serious issues facing us. What you don't do, is somehow avoid

:39:51.:39:54.

it or deny things are happening. Right One of the quotes, some

:39:55.:39:59.

British Muslims, Nigel Farage said, are conflicted in their loyalties

:40:00.:40:03.

between the UK way of life and what some elements within their faith are

:40:04.:40:06.

telling them. Do you agree with that? I would say there is a large

:40:07.:40:11.

amount of truth in that. I have to point out, Nigel used one example.

:40:12.:40:17.

27%, in other words, he was not talking about all Muslims in

:40:18.:40:19.

Britain, he was talking about a small amount of Muslims who showed

:40:20.:40:24.

after the Charlie ebb doe attacks early this year in Paris, there was

:40:25.:40:29.

a significant support, about 27%, for the motives of those killers.

:40:30.:40:33.

That is very worrying indeed. We have to face up to those things. It

:40:34.:40:39.

is up to us to put forward a much stronger narrative as to why people

:40:40.:40:44.

should have their allegiance first and foremost to this country. What

:40:45.:40:50.

do you say to that? I don't believe British Muslims are kin flected. You

:40:51.:40:54.

don't love your first child any less because you have your second. The

:40:55.:41:00.

vast majority of Muslims feel very British, want their families safe.

:41:01.:41:06.

Don't want anything to do with Isis. It is a cult created by Saddam

:41:07.:41:11.

Hussein's hench men. They are scared of them as we are. We shouldn't

:41:12.:41:20.

confuse migrants with refugees. We are talking -- taking rev fees from

:41:21.:41:27.

Jordan. Properly vetted. Victims of rape, torture, brutality. No-one's

:41:28.:41:31.

arguing about that. That's the right way to do it. Nigel Farage said

:41:32.:41:38.

there would be Jihadis secreted within the fleeing refugees from

:41:39.:41:41.

Syria. That would be a threat. He's not the only one who said it. Elecon

:41:42.:41:47.

ease ministers said it. But at the time, if you said this at the time

:41:48.:41:52.

when this huge migration started, you were pretty much dismissed. But

:41:53.:41:56.

he was right. Was he right? Nigel Farage? There are genuine fears when

:41:57.:42:01.

you see those pictures of the vast numbers of people coming from that

:42:02.:42:05.

war-torn area in the middle east that surely there is a very high

:42:06.:42:10.

risk that it would be an op or tune way to smuggle Jihadis in. I trust

:42:11.:42:14.

our vetting processes. We are the British. Into Europe, continental

:42:15.:42:20.

Europe? Paris is where the attacks happened. Angela Merkel has opened

:42:21.:42:26.

the doors, to some people's minds, Ian her own ministerial Cabinet, it

:42:27.:42:32.

is the wrong thing to do. All the French terrorists were French born

:42:33.:42:37.

and lived in France or Belgium. It is a red herring. There will be

:42:38.:42:42.

people who go under the cloak of whatever process there is to get in

:42:43.:42:48.

to carry out their nefarious acts. That's our job, the British security

:42:49.:42:54.

services and policing job to make sure that doesn't happen. None of

:42:55.:42:59.

the the attackers were British. Associating those terrorists in any

:43:00.:43:03.

way with the three million or so Muslims in Britain will be or could

:43:04.:43:08.

be seen as provacative or unnecessarily stirring up emotion?

:43:09.:43:12.

Absolutely not. I totally reject this. It is not like we haven't been

:43:13.:43:18.

affected by this ourselves. We had Lee Rigby virtually decapitated. We

:43:19.:43:24.

had 7/7. We've had attacks. From home-grown terrorists. Yes. But you

:43:25.:43:30.

can't con Nate in a way the two issues when they are broadly born of

:43:31.:43:36.

the same cause. The trust is to say that it's red herring that just one

:43:37.:43:42.

came from outside France, I find extraordinarily complacent you can

:43:43.:43:47.

say that. Far from complacent. There may be a forged passport. They'll

:43:48.:43:51.

find out where he comes from. Whether he came through the

:43:52.:43:56.

migration route. But we, as security forces, we as Britain's, will have

:43:57.:43:59.

the opportunity to assess whether she should be here and make sure

:44:00.:44:03.

those who should not be are not allowed in. To pick up the the

:44:04.:44:09.

statistic. 27% of British Muslims said they'd some sympathy for the

:44:10.:44:14.

motives behind the Charlie endoe attacks in Paris in January? Is that

:44:15.:44:19.

worrying? Very worrying. I personally believe we should not

:44:20.:44:24.

worry about whether or not people want to take the proverbial out of

:44:25.:44:29.

our faith. Faith is about me and my religion not about me and the rest

:44:30.:44:33.

of the public. I would not welcome anyone saying people should be

:44:34.:44:37.

harmed or hurt because they abused us or criticised us. 27% of British

:44:38.:44:43.

Muslims do? That's a survey. I know from talking to dozens around the

:44:44.:44:46.

country that's not what they believe. They are British. They were

:44:47.:44:51.

Muslim victims of the terrorism in Paris. No-one's denying that. But

:44:52.:44:55.

you should agree we should talk about this. I've not problem talking

:44:56.:45:01.

about it. Should we take more Syrian refugees? My personal belief is

:45:02.:45:08.

these people are fleeing fascist regime which is Isis. Back in the

:45:09.:45:12.

thirties, with he didn't say to the Jews go back to Hitler. We should be

:45:13.:45:18.

doing the same with refugees. A lot were turned back. That compar is son

:45:19.:45:24.

is a completely different situation. While the public here rightly

:45:25.:45:32.

express sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks in Paris,

:45:33.:45:34.

it is only natural that thoughts The security services say they have

:45:35.:45:37.

foiled a number of plots on UK soil, and

:45:38.:45:42.

the Government is stressing that it is determined to tackle the threat

:45:43.:45:44.

of more, but is there a weak spot? The policy of deradicalisation

:45:45.:45:47.

called Prevent has come in for criticism that it's alienating

:45:48.:45:49.

as many as it deals with. Giles has been looking

:45:50.:45:52.

into this trickier area His film opens with

:45:53.:45:54.

a police exercise. These are not terrorists,

:45:55.:45:56.

but police. But since the Mumbai attacks, the

:45:57.:46:00.

risk of a terrorist shooting attack has been trained for as part of

:46:01.:46:07.

the UK's counterterrorism strategy. Paris has shown the threats to be

:46:08.:46:11.

a tragically very real one, and we have been told the security

:46:12.:46:15.

services have foiled seven But there is another strand to our

:46:16.:46:17.

preparations, and that is how you tackle someone who has yet to pick

:46:18.:46:24.

up a gun or bomb and is starting Prevent is the Government's push

:46:25.:46:28.

on changing their minds. We've trained 330,000 people

:46:29.:46:34.

to implement the new Prevent duty. So by a process of concentrating our

:46:35.:46:40.

approach, refining what we do and being mindful of those

:46:41.:46:44.

sensitivities, In June this year, 327 people

:46:45.:46:47.

were placed in a deradicalisation in August, just 120, but the total,

:46:48.:46:55.

796, was a larger number True, we have not had

:46:56.:47:06.

a mass casualty attack here for a decade, but that might be a victory

:47:07.:47:21.

more for counterterrorism than deradicalisation programmes, given

:47:22.:47:24.

that, according to police, 700 UK citizens have gone to Syria to fight

:47:25.:47:29.

with jihadists, The problem may be interaction

:47:30.:47:32.

at grassroot levels. There are four key elements of the

:47:33.:47:40.

Contest strategy. The Prevent strategy is

:47:41.:47:42.

the one that isn't successful, because confidence is not there

:47:43.:47:45.

in the community. We need to learn lessons

:47:46.:47:47.

about how we defeated the IRA. It's about talking to individuals

:47:48.:47:49.

that may be difficult for the Government to appreciate

:47:50.:47:51.

that they need to speak to. At the moment,

:47:52.:47:56.

we're not doing that. that the Government feel

:47:57.:47:58.

comfortable with. They're not necessarily the

:47:59.:48:00.

ones that represent the community. And some are uncomfortable with

:48:01.:48:02.

the Government's push that schools, universities

:48:03.:48:05.

and councils should report The more you limit your ability to

:48:06.:48:07.

say that you can have discreet and caring conversations with your

:48:08.:48:13.

students, the more likely it is that you will prevent them, ironically,

:48:14.:48:17.

from being able to come to you and express concerns where they might

:48:18.:48:23.

be open to influence that might But the Government disagrees

:48:24.:48:27.

that it's asking them to spy. If you take these colleges

:48:28.:48:33.

and schools, they have always taken Professor Mohammed Abdel-Haq

:48:34.:48:36.

of the University of Bolton was speaking about this recently to me

:48:37.:48:42.

and saying that duty of care is very much in line with what

:48:43.:48:45.

we now expect people to do. If you see it in those terms,

:48:46.:48:50.

actually, it is very natural. And being frank,

:48:51.:48:54.

there is no doubt that in the UK right now, there are people who do

:48:55.:48:59.

wish us a great deal of harm. Joining us now is the

:49:00.:49:06.

Conservative MP, Rehman Chishti, and Miqdaad Versi,

:49:07.:49:08.

the Assistant Secretary General Rehman Chishti, more than 700 people

:49:09.:49:24.

have left the UK to fight in Iraq and Syria. Prevent, the government

:49:25.:49:28.

strategy to deter people from engaging in terrorism, has therefore

:49:29.:49:33.

failed. Well, you are looking at the number 700 in recent years, but the

:49:34.:49:37.

problem we have had with radicalisation and extremism has

:49:38.:49:40.

gone on for decades. After the war in Afghanistan, Abu Hamza, who

:49:41.:49:45.

fought in that war, was openly allowed to come to this country and

:49:46.:49:49.

preaches hatred. Nothing was done. You had hate preachers in this

:49:50.:49:53.

country. To save this is something that has happened over the last few

:49:54.:49:59.

years is not right. But since 2010? This is a combination of successive

:50:00.:50:03.

governments which have not got to grips with deradicalisation.

:50:04.:50:06.

Including yours. We have a lot more to do, I would be the first to say

:50:07.:50:13.

that. But do I think we need to look at Prevent taking into account the

:50:14.:50:19.

threat posed by Daesh? When Prevent was first set up, Daesh was not

:50:20.:50:24.

there, so the threat posed by Daesh is significant and we need to make

:50:25.:50:29.

sure Prevent deals with that threat. But Labour targeted moderate Islamic

:50:30.:50:34.

groups in a hope that they would provide a way out for those on the

:50:35.:50:38.

margins. The coalition withdrew funding from those groups opposed to

:50:39.:50:42.

fundamental British values. Was that a mistake? We took money away from

:50:43.:50:47.

certain groups where money was not used appropriately. In the last

:50:48.:50:56.

year, we have worked with over 250 mosques around the country, but we

:50:57.:50:59.

have to target the money appropriately by working with those

:51:00.:51:02.

who are committed to British values. Is that a mistake? I think

:51:03.:51:06.

the government should engage with a broad range of British Muslim

:51:07.:51:11.

communities, not just the ones who agree with what it says. That is

:51:12.:51:16.

something that hopefully, everyone would agree with. It makes no sense

:51:17.:51:20.

to try to institute a policy that will impact significantly on one

:51:21.:51:24.

portion of the community. You need to be talking, understand the

:51:25.:51:29.

concerns, and then we can keep ourselves safe. We need something

:51:30.:51:33.

effective, evidence -based and something that the community can buy

:51:34.:51:37.

into. Has the government been talking to the Muslim Council of

:51:38.:51:41.

Britain? The government has not been talking to the Muslim Council of

:51:42.:51:44.

Britain. For us, it is important to have critical friends at the table.

:51:45.:51:48.

There are many who criticise the Muslim Council of Britain. Nazir

:51:49.:51:53.

Afzal has done so in the past as well, but he was invited to our AGM

:51:54.:51:57.

last year. We are happy to talk to people with different views, and the

:51:58.:52:01.

government should do so as well. Shouldn't the government be talking

:52:02.:52:04.

to critical voices if that is what is needed to reach those who might

:52:05.:52:08.

be vulnerable to that sort of ideology? I have engaged with the

:52:09.:52:15.

Muslim community. I have personally had meetings with the Muslim Council

:52:16.:52:18.

of Britain and their Secretary General. I want to engage with

:52:19.:52:23.

everyone. So when I put the recommendation forward to

:52:24.:52:28.

government, we have listened to everyone. We are in this together.

:52:29.:52:32.

Everyone has a role to play in fighting this evil ideology. And

:52:33.:52:37.

these extremists will not stop at anything to impose their will. The

:52:38.:52:40.

more we are united with all organisations, the better. That is

:52:41.:52:48.

right. I was invited to speak at your AGM. You did not have the issue

:52:49.:52:52.

of people flying off to Syria and Iraq on your agenda. I said, I will

:52:53.:52:56.

only speak if you allow me to speak about that and thankfully, you did.

:52:57.:53:00.

So it was about me opening the door which you were not prepared to talk

:53:01.:53:05.

about, but I do pay tribute to you. You have personally spoken about

:53:06.:53:09.

this subject. But my view is like that which Rehman Chishti is saying.

:53:10.:53:12.

We have failed in many aspects around engagement. We have not

:53:13.:53:15.

caught up with the internet age. Prevent was pre-had macro. -- it was

:53:16.:53:24.

pre-Daesh. At the moment, we have a programme where we do not have

:53:25.:53:27.

one-on-one mentoring. We do not have enough mentors. Why did you not have

:53:28.:53:34.

that at the top of your agenda? With 700 people who have gone to Syria

:53:35.:53:39.

and Iraq and been radicalised? It was not part of our AGM, but we are

:53:40.:53:44.

doing work on it now. On Thursday, before the horrific attacks in

:53:45.:53:47.

Paris, we had a national meeting where we started a listening

:53:48.:53:52.

exercise across the country to understand what is going on and to

:53:53.:53:56.

see what Muslim communities in the grassroots are saying and to

:53:57.:53:59.

corroborate what we have said in the past to find ideas on how to tackle

:54:00.:54:03.

the issues we face. We are on the front line. There is no silver

:54:04.:54:10.

bullet. There is no clear answer. The answer is the grassroots, not

:54:11.:54:15.

the very large organisations. Do you see the Muslim Council of Britain as

:54:16.:54:20.

grassroots? My point is that I have worked with lots of women's groups,

:54:21.:54:24.

for example. They are the answer. They don't have the time to put in a

:54:25.:54:27.

business case for government funding. We have to make it easier

:54:28.:54:31.

for them to do their job. You are right, we have to broaden the

:54:32.:54:37.

engagement. We have set up a community engagement panel to make

:54:38.:54:44.

sure all views are taken on board. There are those who are dangerous,

:54:45.:54:47.

those who are disturbed and those who are disillusioned. Therefore,

:54:48.:54:51.

the government has irresponsible at it to ensure that it deals with

:54:52.:54:56.

those who are dangerous. Those who are disillusioned and disturbed get

:54:57.:55:00.

sucked into this poisonous ideology, and therefore, mum and dad have a

:55:01.:55:05.

responsibility to watch what their children are doing an the internet.

:55:06.:55:11.

It is important to take down internet material, but it is also

:55:12.:55:14.

important to put up another narrative which tackles that. Are

:55:15.:55:22.

the Muslim community doing enough to stop radicalisation in their own

:55:23.:55:25.

homes? There is a lot more that needs to be done from within the

:55:26.:55:29.

Muslim community and outside it. There is a long journey ahead of

:55:30.:55:35.

us. We have to ask how to best Brit. Some of the ideas coming from the

:55:36.:55:39.

government or from the grassroots are being done at grassroots level.

:55:40.:55:44.

They are being done at local mosques. We need some of these ideas

:55:45.:55:50.

to go to the government. The community engagement the government

:55:51.:55:54.

has set up does not have a broad section of the community

:55:55.:55:59.

represented. Thank you for joining us. Rehman Chishti, you will stay

:56:00.:56:03.

with us a bit longer. A few minutes ago, the Prime Minister made a

:56:04.:56:06.

statement to the House of Commons on the Paris attacks and the G20 summit

:56:07.:56:10.

from which he has just returned. Let's listen to what he had to say.

:56:11.:56:15.

We face a direct and growing threat to our country, and we need to deal

:56:16.:56:19.

with it not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. I have always said

:56:20.:56:23.

there is a strong case for doing so. Our allies are asking us to do

:56:24.:56:28.

this, and the case for doing so has only grown stronger after the Paris

:56:29.:56:32.

attacks. We cannot expect and should not expect others to carry the

:56:33.:56:35.

burdens and the risks of protecting our country. I recognise that there

:56:36.:56:44.

are concerns in this House. What difference would action by the UK

:56:45.:56:48.

make? Could it make the situation worse? How does the recent Russian

:56:49.:56:53.

action affect the situation? How, above all, would a decision by

:56:54.:56:56.

Britain to join strikes against Isil in Syria fit into a comprehensive

:56:57.:57:01.

strategy for dealing with Isil and a diplomatic strategy to bring the war

:57:02.:57:05.

in Syria to an end to? I understand these concerns, and I know they must

:57:06.:57:10.

be answered. I believe they can be and third. Many were expressed in

:57:11.:57:14.

the recent report of the foreign affairs select committee. My

:57:15.:57:17.

conviction is that we need to act against Isil in Syria. There is a

:57:18.:57:22.

compelling case for doing so. It is for the government to make that case

:57:23.:57:26.

to this House and the country. I can therefore announced that of first

:57:27.:57:30.

important step to do so, I will respond personally to the report of

:57:31.:57:32.

the foreign affairs select committee. I will set out our of

:57:33.:57:37.

strategy for dealing with Isil, our vision for a more stable and

:57:38.:57:41.

peaceful Middle East. In my view, this strategy should include taking

:57:42.:57:46.

the action in Syria I have spoken about. I hope that in setting out

:57:47.:57:50.

the arguments in this way, I can help build support across this House

:57:51.:57:54.

for the action that I believe is necessary. That is what I will be

:57:55.:57:58.

putting in place over the coming days, and I hope colleagues from

:57:59.:58:01.

across the House will engage with that and make clear their views so

:58:02.:58:07.

we can have a strong vote in this House of Commons and do the right

:58:08.:58:12.

thing for our country. That was the Prime Minister in the House of

:58:13.:58:15.

Commons a few moments ago. He is going to take the unusual step of

:58:16.:58:18.

responding personally to the foreign affairs select committee report

:58:19.:58:21.

calling for a plan for a wider peace in Syria, and he will set out a road

:58:22.:58:27.

map that he believes will have more action to take against Isil. Do you

:58:28.:58:30.

support air strikes against Isis in Syria? I agree that we have to do

:58:31.:58:35.

everything we can to defeat this evil organisation. But before we go

:58:36.:58:40.

to military action, let's get the government to get the terminology

:58:41.:58:43.

right and defeat the propaganda. At the moment, so-called Isil want to

:58:44.:58:48.

be called an Islamic State. We have just talked about why over 600

:58:49.:58:52.

British nationals have been sucked into fighting for this even

:58:53.:58:55.

organisation. The government has to get the strategy right to defeat

:58:56.:58:59.

their organisation right and get the terminology right. And then you will

:59:00.:59:07.

support air strikes? This time, I want to see the strategy put forward

:59:08.:59:10.

before I decide whether to support them.

:59:11.:59:11.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:59:12.:59:16.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage of

:59:17.:59:19.

He brought ground-breaking, subversive shows

:59:20.:59:31.

He was the most brilliant young producer.

:59:32.:59:36.

He was the only one that could really keep up with me.

:59:37.:59:38.

'While you're alive, you have to live.'

:59:39.:59:41.

Jo Coburn is joined by Nazir Afzal, the former chief crown prosecutor for north west England to discuss the latest news and debate from Westminster, including how Britain should respond to terrorism in the wake of the Paris attacks.


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