Browse content similar to 17/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
There's more money for the spies at GCHQ | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
in the wake of the Paris terror attacks. | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
But as George Osborne agrees billions of pounds worth | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
of cuts elsewhere how hard will he hit the police budget? | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
There's trouble brewing for Jeremy Corbyn as he questions the | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
right of the British police to shoot to kill a heavily-armed terrorist | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
and wonders whether the air strike targetting Jihadi John was legal. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Is this how a Labour Leader should react to a terrorist outrage? | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
At least one of the Paris attackers is alleged | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
to have entered the European Union posing as a Syrian refugee. | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
Is it time to close the EU's borders in the face of the terrorist threat? | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
And how to counter extremism here in the UK. | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
How do we guard against the threat of more home-grown terrorism? | :01:21. | :01:29. | |
And with us for the whole of the programme today is the former | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
Chief Crown Prosecutor in the North West of England, Nazir Afzal. | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
First this morning, how should an opposition leader | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
react to events like the terrorist atrocity in Paris? | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
Well, yesterday, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
did a round of broadcast interviews in which he was asked about security | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
But some of his comments have gone down badly with his own MPs. | :01:54. | :02:03. | |
In a BBC interview yesterday, Mr Corbyn warned I was not happy with | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
the police policy of shoot-to-kill with a terror attack. He warned any | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
such policy could be dangerous and counterproductive. In a separate | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
interview, the Labour Leader questioned the legality of the drone | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
strike which is thought to have killed the terrorist known as Jihadi | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
John. He said, I'm awaiting an explanation where the legal basis | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
was for that incident. Mr Corbyn's links to Stop the War Coalition. | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
Particularly after the article at the weekend in which a group | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
insisted Paris had reaped the whirlwind of western support for | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
extremist violence in the middle east. Last night, an MP told the BBC | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
I've never seen a PLP meeting with that ding rye of discontent voiced. | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
Question after question, each devastating. He was reported to have | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
been criticised by prominent MPs on shoot-to-kill. Dan Jarvis on his | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
Jihadi John comments. What he said about reconsidering air strikes in | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
Iraq by John Woodcock. To add to the Labour Leader's woes. This morning, | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn said it is perfectly reasonable for | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
police to shoot those who are a threat to life. | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
She is now looking at ways of tackling Europe's refugee crisis. | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
You reportedly asked Jeremy Corbyn last night for reassurance the | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
Labour Party would continue to support shoot-to-kill. That means | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
the police can shoot terrorists when they pose an immediate threat to | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
life. Has he given you that assurance? My point is we've a long | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
standing legal framework which allows for the use of lethal force | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
in situations where you have imminent threat to life. Terrorists | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
on the streets killing people. That, I think, that legal framework is | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
important and needs to continue. I understand there's been reports in | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
the papers today Jeremy has confirmed he also supports that now. | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
I think, obviously I disagree with what he said yesterday. He said I'm | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general. It is quite | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
dangerous and can often be counterproductive. Was he wrong? | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
You've very serious threats. If people are being killed, you saw, | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
think of what happened in the Bataclan. If you think about the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
kinds of terrorists we are dealing with, suicide pommers and so on, | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
there are times when the police need to make mayor own operational | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
decision -- suicide bombers. The police have to make the decisions | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
about those circumstances and when in those circumstances lethal force | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
is justified. I think everybody would expect that when you want to | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
protect innocent lives and are dealing with this kind of threat. | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
Understanding everyone's confirmed that continues to to be our | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
position. It needs to be. Just to be clear, in your mind, Jeremy Corbyn, | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
has he personally said to you, Yvette Cooper, you wanted a | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
reassurance about this, I do support the police's shoot-to-kill policy in | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
those circumstances? No, I haven't spoken to him today. Would you like | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
that reassurance in such a sensitive time. If there was any people were | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
misconstruing what he meant that he's clear about it? It is good to | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
have clarity. But, let's be honest, Jo, this is so important and so | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
serious I don't want this to be about who said what to who. He's the | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
leader of Her Majesty's opposition. My understanding is this remains the | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Labour Party's policy. I'm clear it has to remain Labour's policy | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
supporting the police and security services in a very difficult job | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
which they need to be able to do to keep us all safe. There are always | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
safeguards with the use of lethal force. There have to be | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
investigations whenever it's used, when that happens. You have to be | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
able to keep people safe. It is important that we should continue to | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
support that. Hilary Benn said this morning. Shoot-to-kill policy was | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
perfectly reasonable. In your mind, they are now one, oven though 24 | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
hours ago, the Shadow Foreign Secretary and the Labour Leader | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
seemed to hold different view points? I'm not a member of the | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
Shadow Cabinet. I can't speak for Jeremy on this. You heard those two | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
views? You've heard my view clearly. Jeremy Corbyn also came under fire | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
last night at the meeting of Labour MPs because of hi associations with | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
the stop of war coalition. There was a recent blog post now deleted | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
saying Paris was reaping the whirlwind of western foreign policy. | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
Jeremy Corbyn was chair of the Stop the War Coalition. Should he | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
distance himself from stop the war? What they said was appalling. | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
Clearly, nobody thinks it was Paris or France that was responsible for | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
what happened. It was terrorists who were responsible. At a time when so | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
many people are grieving for those they have lost and for the attack to | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
our way of life as well. I think it is really important we show | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
solidarity for the people of Paris and France. That's what the Labour | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
Party was doing yesterday in Parliament. That's what people | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
across Britain will be doing tonight when we have the England v France | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
game as well. Should he distance himself further? He's due to speak | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
at a Christmas fund-raising for Stop the War Coalition. It's not what I | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
would do. Jeremy has to speak for himself. Sure, but as a member of | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
the Labour parliamentary party, are you happy to see him speak for Stop | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
the War Coalition? Jo, I don't think anybody should be associated with | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
statements like that. They are appalling. There is a wider issue | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
about the very serious threat in terms of extremism and the challenge | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
from Isis to Europe and Britain and how we respond. We have to respond | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
by having stronger security. That sense of solidarity. Not allowing | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
terrorists to divide us. Not allowing them to pick us apart. They | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
want to sew fear, division and hatred. That's the real challenge. | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
Europe has a lot more to do to be able to respond to this threat. As | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
you say, you want to see a united front in terms of the response to | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
what happened in Paris and to terrorism around the world. What do | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
you make then of Jeremy Corbyn's statement it would have been far | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
better if Jihadi John had been arrested rather than hit by a drone | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
strike? We know in these circumstances, it wasn't possible to | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
arrest him. Was that statement naive in your mind or misguided? I think, | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
Jo, there's a wider issue here about what it is that Europe needs to do. | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
That is what we should be talking about. Further security measures | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
that need to be taken, the support the Government needs to put in place | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
and is rightly doing in terms of support for the intelligence and | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
security agencies. They need to go further in terms of support for | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
neighbourhood policing. That local intelligence is immensely important | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
and prevention work. The scale of cuts to policing would be the wrong | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
approach. I hoe they are now rethinking that. This had is the | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
wider European co-operation that needs to take place. Including | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
dealing with the refer ghee crisis which is being exploited by | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
terrorists as well. Right, but, it does come back to the leader of | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
opposition being clear and representing the views of the | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
parliamentary party. Are the events in Paris likely to change your | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
party's position, or should they, on air strikes in Syria? I think the | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
thing we've still not seen from the Government is actually any proposal | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
on Syria. I've backed and I think the Labour Party is right to back, | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
the air strikes at the request of the democratically elected Iraqi | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
Government against Isis in Iraq. The challenge with Syria is it is much | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
more complicated because of President Assad and many of the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
refugees are also fleeing from Assad. It is clear the Prime | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
Minister is not going to bring forward a proposal until and unless | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
he has the support of enough MPs, not only on his own side but | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
particularly from Labour. Should Labour now get behind some sort of | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
proposal or not if it comes forward to bomb IS in Syria? I think it | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
entirely doo depends on what the proposal is. We've not seen a | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
proposal. You have to look at the consequences of any proposal. Have a | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
comprehensive strategy to deal with the conflict, the wider civil war in | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Syria. We've not seen that. We are still waiting for the Government to | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
come forward with any proposals. Should be it be a free vote? Depends | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
on the proposal. Many of us will make our decisions based on what is | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
the right thing to do. What was the atmosphere like? We've heard from | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
the Labour MPs after that meeting in the House of Commons. Some of the | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
backbenchers felt it was the worst meeting they'd ever witnessed in | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
terms of response to Jeremy Corbyn's views on Jihadi John, talking about | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
shoot-to-kill and on air strikes in Syria. What do you say? I think, if | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
this is a meeting for the parliamentary Labour Party that the | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
press are not invited to. But Labour MPs come out and... I'm not talking | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
about the details. I've told you my views on the issues around the use | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
of Leith at force in the face of a terrorist threat, you have to be | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
strong and firm. And the issues I've disafreed with Jeremy on. I can tell | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
you that. It would not be right for me to talk about the kinds of | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
meetings and discussions that take place. Again, I still come back to, | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
I think, the wider issue for us as a country. This is not simply about | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
one meeting of a Parliamentary Labour Party. This is the wider | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
challenge for Britain and for Europe which I don't think we are yet | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
meeting and yet responding to given the pressures we face. It will lead | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
to the Conservative charge saying Labour cannot be trusted to keeping | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
the country safe and that will stick according to the Prime Minister, | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
George Osborne as long as Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour? I don't think | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
that is the view of the Labour Party. Yesterday, you heard Andy | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
burn hum responding to -- Andy Burnham responding to Theresa May | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
about her support for the security agencies. We'll stand firm with the | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
Government about that. We have to. It is about making people safe and | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
keeping them safe. Part of that is about standing up against the | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
divisions the terrorists seek to sew. Making sure you can take action | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
to prevent extremism and terrorism. You mentioned the cuts to police | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
funding and extra spending going to spies and intellingence services. | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
George Osborne said he'll double the funding against cybercrime. Should | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
Labour match that pledge? Yes, absolutely right to. This is the new | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
kind of threat that we also face in terms of the cyber attack. It is an | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
important threat to Britain. I think the wider thing about making sure | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
you have that intelligence about where imflint threats might be -- | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
imminent threats might be. That's about sharing information across | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
Europe. What do you make of Nigel Farage's comments last night? That | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
the UK Muslim population has conflicted royalties? It is an | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
appalling thing to say. The Muslim community were one of the first to | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
be out condemning the appalling bash rich in Paris. -- barberism in | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
Paris. Muslims in Beirut who have experienced the brunt of the Isis | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
attack and brutality, many of whom are fleeing from that brutality as | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
well. It is Muslim parents in Britain who are seeking to make sure | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
that their children are not being groomed and radicalised as well. | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
Isis is a perversion of Islam. I think the problem with what Nigel | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
Farage said is, this is playing into the hands of extremists by going | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
along this track of trying to divide us and pit us against each other | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
when we should stand firm against such extremism. Just to go back to | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
the initial questions on shoot-to-kill. Are you clear in your | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
mind now with what has been said by Labour, they are happy to support | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
the shoot-to-kill policy in general? I agree with Yvette. The view, I've | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
spent 25 years telling police how they should behave. Their | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
operational matters are up to them. We have the best armed officers in | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
the world. They rarely use firearms. They should be doing their job, awe | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
Lou them without politicians interfering in their jobs. What | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
Yvette said about terrorism, set to divide, we need clarity from the | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
Labour Party about what they want to do on this subject. These terrorists | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
don't represent Islam or anybody. We need Labour Party to say this is | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
something we should do about them. Now, Belgium has raised | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
its terror alert this morning as the hunt continues for the surviving | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
perpetrators of Friday's attack in Paris and their accomplices. The | :15:53. | :15:54. | |
Government here is setting out its In a speech at the Mansion House | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
in the City of London last night, the Prime Minister said Britain | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
must summon the spirit of World War II if it is to defeat what | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
he called the Isil thugs. It's not just about the amount of | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
money we spend or the size of our forces, it's also about our ability | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
to deploy them quickly, with the We've seen how vital drones are | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
in the fight against Isil. So, with this extra money, | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
we're doubling our fleet of drones. We know we need the ability | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
to carry out air strikes. So this money will provide | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
for more fighter aircraft. We want to increase the capabilities | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
of our brilliant special forces. There will be | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
a ?2 billion programme of new We will maintain our continuous | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
at sea nuclear deterrent. We'll also invest in | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
a new generation of cyber defences to block and disrupt attacks before | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
they can harm our United Kingdom. This morning, the Chancellor, George | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
Osborne, has been visiting GCHQ in Cheltenham, where he's been warning | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
against the danger of so-called Islamic State launching a cyber | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
attack, and promised millions of pounds of extra funding | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
for the security services Isil's murderous brutality has | :17:08. | :17:09. | |
a strong digital element. At a time when so many others are | :17:10. | :17:36. | |
using the internet to enhance freedom and give expression to | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
liberal values and creativity, Isil are already using | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
the internet for hideous propaganda purposes, for radicalisation, | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
for operational planning too. They have not so far been able to | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
use it to kill people by attacking our infrastructure | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
through cyber attack. They do not yet have | :17:51. | :17:52. | |
that capability. and we know they're doing | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
their best to build it. So when we talk about tackling Isil, | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
that means tackling their cyber threat as well | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
as the threat of their guns And earlier this morning, | :18:01. | :18:02. | |
the Chancellor announced that he has provisionally agreed cuts with | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
another seven government departments ahead | :18:08. | :18:09. | |
of next week's spending review. Those are the Cabinet Office, | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Offices, | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
HM Revenue and Customs and both the Work and Pensions and Energy | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
and Climate Change departments. They've all agreed to reduce | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
spending by 6% a year which adds up to a real-term | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
reduction of 21% by 2019/20. The Chancellor has now reached | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
provisional agreements with over half | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
of Whitehall departments totalling more than ?4 billion of savings | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
by the end of the Parliament. And Adam Fleming has more | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
on the Chancellor's announcement. So, is he well on the way to getting | :18:49. | :19:00. | |
the savings he wants? Let's look at the numbers. As you said, the | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
Chancellor has now reached a preliminary agreements of about ?4 | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
billion worth of savings. But he said earlier this year that he wants | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
to reach a total of ?20 billion of savings by 2020. So far be it from | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
me to say how he is doing, but let's compare the four we have got with | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
the 20 wants to get at the end of this process. You're right that even | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
though he has settled with more than half of the government departments | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
in Whitehall, in 11 out of 20, that means they're still some big | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
spenders who he has not done a deal with - the Home Office, the MoD, the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
health department, the NHS budget, which he says he will increase, but | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
we are not sure by how much and when. And as usual with the spending | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
review, we are getting big numbers, but not a lot of detail. For | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
example, the Chancellor was saying today that the money saved by HMRC | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
will come from the digitisation of tax collection. No more detail than | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
that. Interestingly, today shows that there was an end to the dispute | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
between George Osborne and Ian Duncan Smith. The welfare secretary | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
was concerned that his budget for universal credit was going to be | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
ready to pay for the delay in tax credits, and he threatened to | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
resign. It looks like that threat has gone away, because they have | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
done a deal. There was also an announcement of more money for the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
intelligence services, which has come after the Paris attacks. But | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
cuts to police funding? Yes, the police forces in England are | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
expecting big cuts to their budget. Bernard Hogan-Howe, the commission | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
of the Met, is saying he expects cuts over the next five years of up | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
to ?800 million, which means he would have to sack maybe 5000 police | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
officers in London, which sounds like a lot. That is how the Police | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
Federation see it. They represent the rank and file and they have | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
released a statement saying that cuts of that level would jeopardise | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
their ability to protect the public in the UK in the event of a Parisian | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
style terrorist attack. This issue is starting to creep into the House | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
of Commons. Yesterday, after the Home Secretary made her statement | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
about the Paris attacks, a couple of Tory backbenchers started making | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
noises along those lines, that they were worried about the budgets for | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
things like community policing. It was interesting that when George | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
Osborne was answering questions after his speech at GCHQ today, he | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
kept quiet about the idea of whether he would be protecting or cutting | :21:28. | :21:28. | |
police budgets. The Conservative MP, Tom Tugenhadt, | :21:29. | :21:29. | |
is here with us now. Let's talk about those potential | :21:30. | :21:46. | |
cuts to policing, which Bernard Hogan-Howe says would cut front line | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
policing. Is that what we should be doing at a time like this? It is | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
staggering. I have worked with police up and down the country and I | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
have worked with the prosecution service for 25 years, and all those | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
agencies Arlene. There is nothing more they can give. -- and they | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
Arlene. The back-office operation has been decimated. What were | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
talking about extremism, the best eyes and ears of the community | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
officers, the PCSOs, and I'm hearing that all of these police officers | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
are talking about cutting those numbers. That is putting people at | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
risk. We cannot have a situation where public safety is diminished in | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
this way. According to Nazir Afzal, if those who are the eyes and ears | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
on the street time when terrorism is on heightened alert, it would be a | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
mistake. Should your government be cutting police numbers? We must work | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
together on this. Terrorism is not an issue solely for the security | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
forces, be it the military or GCHQ or the police, nor is it the job of | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
the community alone. It is the job of everyone to work together. What | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
is particularly important is, when young men, and sadly, it is | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
particularly young men, are getting radicalised in different parts of | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
our community, it is essential that community leaders are families, | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
relatives and friends highlight this. There is no way we can put a | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
policeman on every street corner, and nor would we want to. So we have | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
to engage with the community more closely, and we have to remind the | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
community that they also have a responsibility in protecting their | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
young men and women from these people. The most trusted police | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
officers are those who work in those communities. People do not win | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
counterterrorism helplines, they talk to an officer that they | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
recognise and trust. If they are not there, we will not get that | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
information. They are there. But you are going to cut them if the | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
proposal goes through that George Osborne has put through the cuts to | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
unprotected departments like the Home Office. Should they be cut? I | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
am not going to tell the police commissioners for the whole of | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
England, Wales and Scotland how to do their jobs. It is for them to | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
prioritise. I am asking you about George Osborne. You are asking if | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
they should cut individual officers. It is not for me to tell police | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
commissioners how to do their jobs. That is why we have police and crime | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
commissioners who will be elected next year to prioritise the | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
allocation of resources. Nazir is right that community engagement is | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
the front line of defence against terrorism, but that is not alone. | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
The community police officers stand with the community. The community | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
have a fundamental response ability, because we police by | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
content in this country. We are not a bitter Tory or state. We need | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
community leaders, be they imams or leaders of community groups or be | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
they family and friends, we need that to be the eyes and ears, | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
because they are protecting themselves and us as citizens. Is | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
that because there will not be enough police? I must get an answer | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
from you on whether you think, in the wake of the Paris attacks, | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
should Lord Osborne rethink his cuts to police funding? I have taken your | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
point that it is up to police commissioners to decide response | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
booties, but Bernard Hogan-Howe says he would have to cut up to 5000 | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
officers. He did not say that, the federation said that. It is up to | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
Bernard Hogan-Howe. On LBC, he said it is a massive change and as a | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
result, I worry about the safety of London. We think we may lose up to | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
8000 police officers. I did not hear that interview, I only heard it | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
reported by the federation. It is up to Bernard Hogan-Howe to decide how | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
to allocate the resources he has. I will not lecture him on how to do | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
it. I welcome that he said he will put more police on the streets of | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
London, and I particularly welcome the investment in intelligence, | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
because if you want to address this, intelligence is fundamental. Why is | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
it more important for intelligence to get funding than the police on | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
the streets? It is a combination. But you are giving more to one and | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
taking money from the other. No, we are addressing different aspects. | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
The intelligence services have been underinvested in and I welcome the | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
Chancellor's investment, because a lot of this problem is coming from | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
overseas. We have spoken about Syria in the past. The actions of foreign | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
criminals in lecturing, preaching and spreading hate through the cyber | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
highways is a serious threat. I can only take from you that you agree | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
that there should be some cuts and that the police will have to manage | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
their resources. One of the points that Tom Tugenhadt said was that | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
even if you put a lease officer on every corner of every street -- a | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
police officer, they had lots in Paris before the attacks, but it | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
will not stop this sort of terrorism if they are soft targets. Well, they | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
have to be lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time. But it is a | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
postcode lottery. In Bristol, they have done good work in local | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
community engagement. One terrorist was grassed up by the local mosque. | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
That is the kind of information that comes from having good | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
relationships. If we do not have the officers to have those relationships | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
with, I worry about the future. You make it sound as though the only | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
person with whom the mosque can have the relationship is the police. | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
Nobody is talking about removing that. There is a series of people | :27:26. | :27:34. | |
with whom we engage every day. I have people coming into my | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
constituency surgery, raising different issues. Raising issues | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
like this is essential across the community. But intelligence has to | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
turn into evidence. Somebody cannot just say, -- somebody has to say, I | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
have seen something, I will raise evidence against that individual. It | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
cannot happen if there are fewer police. I do not accept that. | :28:00. | :28:01. | |
The UK Parliament's all-party group for Kurdistan has been visiting | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
the Peshmerga in Iraq just a few miles from the front line | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
The Labour MP John Woodcock was part of that group of MPs. | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
We will speak to him in a moment, but first let's take a look | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
It's been a real privilege to be taken out here by the Commander | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
They make the point to us that they are getting essential air support | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
from the UK, from the RAF, and training and advice from the UK | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
But they are desperately short of kit. | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
They know that if they fail in this fight and Daesh continue, | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
ultimately, it will be foreign fighters who will | :28:45. | :28:46. | |
be going back to the UK to take what they've learned here, the extremism, | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
military tactics, back to countries such as the UK. | :28:51. | :29:00. | |
It's a huge privilege to be able to see this, but the UK | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
That is the stark message they have asked us to take back to the UK. | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
Remind us who the Kurds are and the areas of land they inhabit and the | :29:13. | :29:22. | |
fronts they are fighting is on? The Iraqi Kurds are in the north of | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
Iraq. They were systematically persecuted in the most vile ways by | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
Saddam Hussein. After the liberation, is based in it, of Iraq | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
from Saddam, there were given a semi-autonomous devolved region | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
within Iraq. Their military force, the Peshmerga, are the troops who | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
are fighting. They are a proficient force and it was a privilege to see | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
what they were doing on the front line. I hope that broadcasting what | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
we saw back to the UK helps dispel the understandable misconception | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
that there is nothing going on in Iraq except for the odd bomb being | :30:09. | :30:16. | |
dropped by the RAF. You could see that just a few kilometres away from | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
the Daesh front line, the Peshmerga rely on the protection in the air | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
cover that the RAF give. They are fighting a difficult fight and they | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
hope for more from the UK and other nations. | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
We're going on to the proposal air strikes if it comes before the | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
Commons in a moment. The Kurds neat more kit. David Cameron said last | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
year Britain would arm the Kurds. Did you see evidence of that? They | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
have some. But the message again and again was they are really lacking. | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
Actually, they say to us in stark terms, we are grateful for the UK's | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
involvement. They kept repeating how grateful they were. That we were | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
part of the coalition to defeat Saddam Hussein. But actually, the UK | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
is giving amongst the least in terms of resources for their fight. I | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
think the reluctance from the Foreign Office, from the UK | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
Government, is that it doesn't end up fuelling destab I willisation in | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
the region. Particularly Turkey. When you look into this closely, you | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
need to be honest, there isn't really a functioning state called | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
Iraq at the moment. That has broken down into a Baghdad Government run | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
by a Shia force which isn't representing the Sunni and the | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
Kurdish areas. There does need to be change. In the near term, I think | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
it's so important these people, they make the case, they're fighting on | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
all our behalf. If they don't win this fight, then foreign fighters | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
can go back into countries like the UK and we need to support them | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
better than we have been doing. What about another vote in the House of | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
Commons on air strikes over Syria? Would you like to see that brought | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
forward now? Iity it's important we do more. I've always said being in | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
Iraq, being part of that operation, but not going over what is a purely | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
theoretical border, is illogical. We said it is legal to do so. Provide | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
logistical support. Where it is important David Cameron comes | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
forward today, hopefully, as soon as possible, is in the sense of how | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
this military involvement fits in with a wider diplomatic engagement | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
where we cannot allow to happen to beat back Daesh but leave the vacuum | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
which we left that Daesh was able to fill in the Sunni regions of Iraq. | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
To be clear, you would back a proposal that David Cameron brought | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
forward to say we need to use British military force, not much of | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
it, but British military force to bomb IS is Syria or do agree with | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
Hilary Benn about having strict pre-conditions before supporting it | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
You would have to see the exact detail. My sense is yes, I would | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
back even that limited increased incursion by the RAF strikes over | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
the border into and ultimate targeting Raqa which is the head of | :33:38. | :33:47. | |
extremists, the HQ. I think many of my colleagues will want to see more | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
in terms of diplomatic effort before they do that. I want to see it as | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
well. But even if it is the limited proposal, there will be several of | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
us whether will be prepared to back that. Are there any circumstances in | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
which the UK can participate without a Commons vote? That is a wider | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
question. That will have consequences right across a number | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
of military involvement. I think for this engagement, clearly, I don't | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
think there is a prospect of that. Whether we would relook after this | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
about the balance that has changed over the last ten years, well, that | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
may be worth doing. Clearly, the Prime Minister is clear that he will | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
not proceed in a substantive way with direct involvement without a | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
vote. That's the reality we are looking at. What do you make of the | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn's association with stop of the war | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
coalition? There seems to be unhappiness from some of your | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
colleagues particularly following the blog post where Stop the War | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
Coalition were reaping the whirlwind of return foreign policy. What would | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
you say about Jeremy Corbyn's association with Stop the War | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
Coalition? I've always been troubled by his association. That blog post | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
was striking not from the fact it was coming from left field and | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
unusual from the organisation. That is the message they've given all | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
through. We have to call this for what. Blaming the people of France | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
or the French Government or the UK Government for the killing of French | :35:24. | :35:31. | |
or UK civilians is akin at the time of the Second World War, blaming the | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
Jewish people for their deaths under the Nazis. It is that serious. I | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
really hope Jeremy and others will make clear they will not accept any | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
of that sentiment within the British Labour Party. John Woodcock, thank | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
you. Now, the Home Secretary, | :35:46. | :35:46. | |
Theresa May, has said Britain would take 20,000 Syrian refugees over | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
the next five years, and Our correspondent | :35:50. | :35:51. | |
James Shaw is there. James, can you hear me? Yes, I can. | :35:52. | :36:08. | |
We expect the refugees to arrive at Glasgow airport within the next | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
couple of hours. A plane will touchdown on the apron behind me. | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
The refugees will be kept airside. They won't come through to the | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
terminal. They will be processed in a lounge here. We expect there will | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
be representatives of about five our six Scottish local authorities who | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
will take them to a hotel, brief them and then take them on to their | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
perhaps long-term accommodation. But it's being done in this discreet way | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
because these are deemed to be vulnerable people under this | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
vulnerable persons resettlement scheme. We will not see them in | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
public at this stage. They will be allowed to start their new lives in | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
the UK discreetly and out of the public eye. Yes, difficult, of | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
course, in the wake of what's been going on over the past few days. Are | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
more expected? More Syrian refugees from those camps expected in | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
Glasgow? That's right. We're expecting between 300 and 400 before | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
Christmas. That's a pretty big proportion of the total of 1,000 for | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
the UK before Christmas. Probably over a third will come to Scottish | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
local authorities. I was talking to people in the terminal building a | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
couple of minutes ago, asking them what they thought about the arrival | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
of these refugees. There was a quite a lot of scepticism on the grounds | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
where we hear people complaining about schools and hospitals being | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
overstretched at the moment. There was that argument, but also concerns | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
over what happened in Paris. People worrying who is coming into the | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
country. It is the case these people, these refugees, have been | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
given a double security screening before they arrive in the UK. So | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
clearly the authorities are content that they do not represent any sort | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
of security threat. James Shaw, you that. | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
Now, lying next to the body of one of the men who blew themselves up | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
outside the Stade de France last Friday was a Syrian passport. | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
It belonged to a man who Greek officials have confirmed passed | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
through Greece along with the thousands of migrants. | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
So-called Islamic State had threatened to place jihadis amongst | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
fleeing refugees and some, including Ukip leader Nigel Farage, | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
believe this is exactly what has happened and that this security | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
This dream of the free movement of people, | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
this dream for others of the Schengen area | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
hasn't just meant the free movement of people, | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
it's meant the free movement of Kalashnikov rifles. | :38:41. | :38:42. | |
It's meant the free movement of terrorists. | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
And it's meant the free movement of jihadists. | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
And it's time that democratic groups in Britain and right across Europe | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
stood up and fought and gained in strength and said | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
"An end to this. We want back border controls. | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
Here now is Peter Whittle, the Ukip candidate for London Mayor. | :39:00. | :39:08. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is Nigel Farage cynically using the | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
Parisse tax to try to forward Ukip's domestic agenda? Absolutely not. | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
There's no question about this. This is a hugely political issue. So, | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
political response is necessary. I find it extraordinary people say | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
that this is being exploitative. Nigel's speech last night, I was | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
there, was hugely nuanced and positive in some of the messages it | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
put out. People want and need to talk about this situation. There | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
were 1,000 people there last night. Everyone wants to talk about one of | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
the most serious issues facing us. What you don't do, is somehow avoid | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
it or deny things are happening. Right One of the quotes, some | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
British Muslims, Nigel Farage said, are conflicted in their loyalties | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
between the UK way of life and what some elements within their faith are | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
telling them. Do you agree with that? I would say there is a large | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
amount of truth in that. I have to point out, Nigel used one example. | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
27%, in other words, he was not talking about all Muslims in | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
Britain, he was talking about a small amount of Muslims who showed | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
after the Charlie ebb doe attacks early this year in Paris, there was | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
a significant support, about 27%, for the motives of those killers. | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
That is very worrying indeed. We have to face up to those things. It | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
is up to us to put forward a much stronger narrative as to why people | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
should have their allegiance first and foremost to this country. What | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
do you say to that? I don't believe British Muslims are kin flected. You | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
don't love your first child any less because you have your second. The | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
vast majority of Muslims feel very British, want their families safe. | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
Don't want anything to do with Isis. It is a cult created by Saddam | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
Hussein's hench men. They are scared of them as we are. We shouldn't | :41:12. | :41:20. | |
confuse migrants with refugees. We are talking -- taking rev fees from | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
Jordan. Properly vetted. Victims of rape, torture, brutality. No-one's | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
arguing about that. That's the right way to do it. Nigel Farage said | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
there would be Jihadis secreted within the fleeing refugees from | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
Syria. That would be a threat. He's not the only one who said it. Elecon | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
ease ministers said it. But at the time, if you said this at the time | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
when this huge migration started, you were pretty much dismissed. But | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
he was right. Was he right? Nigel Farage? There are genuine fears when | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
you see those pictures of the vast numbers of people coming from that | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
war-torn area in the middle east that surely there is a very high | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
risk that it would be an op or tune way to smuggle Jihadis in. I trust | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
our vetting processes. We are the British. Into Europe, continental | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
Europe? Paris is where the attacks happened. Angela Merkel has opened | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
the doors, to some people's minds, Ian her own ministerial Cabinet, it | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
is the wrong thing to do. All the French terrorists were French born | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
and lived in France or Belgium. It is a red herring. There will be | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
people who go under the cloak of whatever process there is to get in | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
to carry out their nefarious acts. That's our job, the British security | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
services and policing job to make sure that doesn't happen. None of | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
the the attackers were British. Associating those terrorists in any | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
way with the three million or so Muslims in Britain will be or could | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
be seen as provacative or unnecessarily stirring up emotion? | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
Absolutely not. I totally reject this. It is not like we haven't been | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
affected by this ourselves. We had Lee Rigby virtually decapitated. We | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
had 7/7. We've had attacks. From home-grown terrorists. Yes. But you | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
can't con Nate in a way the two issues when they are broadly born of | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
the same cause. The trust is to say that it's red herring that just one | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
came from outside France, I find extraordinarily complacent you can | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
say that. Far from complacent. There may be a forged passport. They'll | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
find out where he comes from. Whether he came through the | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
migration route. But we, as security forces, we as Britain's, will have | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
the opportunity to assess whether she should be here and make sure | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
those who should not be are not allowed in. To pick up the the | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
statistic. 27% of British Muslims said they'd some sympathy for the | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
motives behind the Charlie endoe attacks in Paris in January? Is that | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
worrying? Very worrying. I personally believe we should not | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
worry about whether or not people want to take the proverbial out of | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
our faith. Faith is about me and my religion not about me and the rest | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
of the public. I would not welcome anyone saying people should be | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
harmed or hurt because they abused us or criticised us. 27% of British | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
Muslims do? That's a survey. I know from talking to dozens around the | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
country that's not what they believe. They are British. They were | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
Muslim victims of the terrorism in Paris. No-one's denying that. But | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
you should agree we should talk about this. I've not problem talking | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
about it. Should we take more Syrian refugees? My personal belief is | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
these people are fleeing fascist regime which is Isis. Back in the | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
thirties, with he didn't say to the Jews go back to Hitler. We should be | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
doing the same with refugees. A lot were turned back. That compar is son | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
is a completely different situation. While the public here rightly | :45:25. | :45:32. | |
express sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks in Paris, | :45:33. | :45:34. | |
it is only natural that thoughts The security services say they have | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
foiled a number of plots on UK soil, and | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
the Government is stressing that it is determined to tackle the threat | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
of more, but is there a weak spot? The policy of deradicalisation | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
called Prevent has come in for criticism that it's alienating | :45:48. | :45:49. | |
as many as it deals with. Giles has been looking | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
into this trickier area His film opens with | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
a police exercise. These are not terrorists, | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
but police. But since the Mumbai attacks, the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
risk of a terrorist shooting attack has been trained for as part of | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
the UK's counterterrorism strategy. Paris has shown the threats to be | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
a tragically very real one, and we have been told the security | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
services have foiled seven But there is another strand to our | :46:16. | :46:17. | |
preparations, and that is how you tackle someone who has yet to pick | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
up a gun or bomb and is starting Prevent is the Government's push | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
on changing their minds. We've trained 330,000 people | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
to implement the new Prevent duty. So by a process of concentrating our | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
approach, refining what we do and being mindful of those | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
sensitivities, In June this year, 327 people | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
were placed in a deradicalisation in August, just 120, but the total, | :46:48. | :46:55. | |
796, was a larger number True, we have not had | :46:56. | :47:06. | |
a mass casualty attack here for a decade, but that might be a victory | :47:07. | :47:21. | |
more for counterterrorism than deradicalisation programmes, given | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
that, according to police, 700 UK citizens have gone to Syria to fight | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
with jihadists, The problem may be interaction | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
at grassroot levels. There are four key elements of the | :47:33. | :47:40. | |
Contest strategy. The Prevent strategy is | :47:41. | :47:42. | |
the one that isn't successful, because confidence is not there | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
in the community. We need to learn lessons | :47:46. | :47:47. | |
about how we defeated the IRA. It's about talking to individuals | :47:48. | :47:49. | |
that may be difficult for the Government to appreciate | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
that they need to speak to. At the moment, | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
we're not doing that. that the Government feel | :47:57. | :47:58. | |
comfortable with. They're not necessarily the | :47:59. | :48:00. | |
ones that represent the community. And some are uncomfortable with | :48:01. | :48:02. | |
the Government's push that schools, universities | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
and councils should report The more you limit your ability to | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
say that you can have discreet and caring conversations with your | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
students, the more likely it is that you will prevent them, ironically, | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
from being able to come to you and express concerns where they might | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
be open to influence that might But the Government disagrees | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
that it's asking them to spy. If you take these colleges | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
and schools, they have always taken Professor Mohammed Abdel-Haq | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
of the University of Bolton was speaking about this recently to me | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
and saying that duty of care is very much in line with what | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
we now expect people to do. If you see it in those terms, | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
actually, it is very natural. And being frank, | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
there is no doubt that in the UK right now, there are people who do | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
wish us a great deal of harm. Joining us now is the | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
Conservative MP, Rehman Chishti, and Miqdaad Versi, | :49:07. | :49:08. | |
the Assistant Secretary General Rehman Chishti, more than 700 people | :49:09. | :49:24. | |
have left the UK to fight in Iraq and Syria. Prevent, the government | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
strategy to deter people from engaging in terrorism, has therefore | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
failed. Well, you are looking at the number 700 in recent years, but the | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
problem we have had with radicalisation and extremism has | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
gone on for decades. After the war in Afghanistan, Abu Hamza, who | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
fought in that war, was openly allowed to come to this country and | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
preaches hatred. Nothing was done. You had hate preachers in this | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
country. To save this is something that has happened over the last few | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
years is not right. But since 2010? This is a combination of successive | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
governments which have not got to grips with deradicalisation. | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
Including yours. We have a lot more to do, I would be the first to say | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
that. But do I think we need to look at Prevent taking into account the | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
threat posed by Daesh? When Prevent was first set up, Daesh was not | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
there, so the threat posed by Daesh is significant and we need to make | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
sure Prevent deals with that threat. But Labour targeted moderate Islamic | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
groups in a hope that they would provide a way out for those on the | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
margins. The coalition withdrew funding from those groups opposed to | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
fundamental British values. Was that a mistake? We took money away from | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
certain groups where money was not used appropriately. In the last | :50:48. | :50:56. | |
year, we have worked with over 250 mosques around the country, but we | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
have to target the money appropriately by working with those | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
who are committed to British values. Is that a mistake? I think | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
the government should engage with a broad range of British Muslim | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
communities, not just the ones who agree with what it says. That is | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
something that hopefully, everyone would agree with. It makes no sense | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
to try to institute a policy that will impact significantly on one | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
portion of the community. You need to be talking, understand the | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
concerns, and then we can keep ourselves safe. We need something | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
effective, evidence -based and something that the community can buy | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
into. Has the government been talking to the Muslim Council of | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
Britain? The government has not been talking to the Muslim Council of | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
Britain. For us, it is important to have critical friends at the table. | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
There are many who criticise the Muslim Council of Britain. Nazir | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
Afzal has done so in the past as well, but he was invited to our AGM | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
last year. We are happy to talk to people with different views, and the | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
government should do so as well. Shouldn't the government be talking | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
to critical voices if that is what is needed to reach those who might | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
be vulnerable to that sort of ideology? I have engaged with the | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
Muslim community. I have personally had meetings with the Muslim Council | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
of Britain and their Secretary General. I want to engage with | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
everyone. So when I put the recommendation forward to | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
government, we have listened to everyone. We are in this together. | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
Everyone has a role to play in fighting this evil ideology. And | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
these extremists will not stop at anything to impose their will. The | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
more we are united with all organisations, the better. That is | :52:41. | :52:48. | |
right. I was invited to speak at your AGM. You did not have the issue | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
of people flying off to Syria and Iraq on your agenda. I said, I will | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
only speak if you allow me to speak about that and thankfully, you did. | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
So it was about me opening the door which you were not prepared to talk | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
about, but I do pay tribute to you. You have personally spoken about | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
this subject. But my view is like that which Rehman Chishti is saying. | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
We have failed in many aspects around engagement. We have not | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
caught up with the internet age. Prevent was pre-had macro. -- it was | :53:16. | :53:24. | |
pre-Daesh. At the moment, we have a programme where we do not have | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
one-on-one mentoring. We do not have enough mentors. Why did you not have | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
that at the top of your agenda? With 700 people who have gone to Syria | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
and Iraq and been radicalised? It was not part of our AGM, but we are | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
doing work on it now. On Thursday, before the horrific attacks in | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
Paris, we had a national meeting where we started a listening | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
exercise across the country to understand what is going on and to | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
see what Muslim communities in the grassroots are saying and to | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
corroborate what we have said in the past to find ideas on how to tackle | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
the issues we face. We are on the front line. There is no silver | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
bullet. There is no clear answer. The answer is the grassroots, not | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
the very large organisations. Do you see the Muslim Council of Britain as | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
grassroots? My point is that I have worked with lots of women's groups, | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
for example. They are the answer. They don't have the time to put in a | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
business case for government funding. We have to make it easier | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
for them to do their job. You are right, we have to broaden the | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
engagement. We have set up a community engagement panel to make | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
sure all views are taken on board. There are those who are dangerous, | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
those who are disturbed and those who are disillusioned. Therefore, | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
the government has irresponsible at it to ensure that it deals with | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
those who are dangerous. Those who are disillusioned and disturbed get | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
sucked into this poisonous ideology, and therefore, mum and dad have a | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
responsibility to watch what their children are doing an the internet. | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
It is important to take down internet material, but it is also | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
important to put up another narrative which tackles that. Are | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
the Muslim community doing enough to stop radicalisation in their own | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
homes? There is a lot more that needs to be done from within the | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
Muslim community and outside it. There is a long journey ahead of | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
us. We have to ask how to best Brit. Some of the ideas coming from the | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
government or from the grassroots are being done at grassroots level. | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
They are being done at local mosques. We need some of these ideas | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
to go to the government. The community engagement the government | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
has set up does not have a broad section of the community | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
represented. Thank you for joining us. Rehman Chishti, you will stay | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
with us a bit longer. A few minutes ago, the Prime Minister made a | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
statement to the House of Commons on the Paris attacks and the G20 summit | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
from which he has just returned. Let's listen to what he had to say. | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
We face a direct and growing threat to our country, and we need to deal | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
with it not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. I have always said | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
there is a strong case for doing so. Our allies are asking us to do | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
this, and the case for doing so has only grown stronger after the Paris | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
attacks. We cannot expect and should not expect others to carry the | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
burdens and the risks of protecting our country. I recognise that there | :56:36. | :56:44. | |
are concerns in this House. What difference would action by the UK | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
make? Could it make the situation worse? How does the recent Russian | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
action affect the situation? How, above all, would a decision by | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
Britain to join strikes against Isil in Syria fit into a comprehensive | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
strategy for dealing with Isil and a diplomatic strategy to bring the war | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
in Syria to an end to? I understand these concerns, and I know they must | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
be answered. I believe they can be and third. Many were expressed in | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
the recent report of the foreign affairs select committee. My | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
conviction is that we need to act against Isil in Syria. There is a | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
compelling case for doing so. It is for the government to make that case | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
to this House and the country. I can therefore announced that of first | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
important step to do so, I will respond personally to the report of | :57:31. | :57:32. | |
the foreign affairs select committee. I will set out our of | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
strategy for dealing with Isil, our vision for a more stable and | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
peaceful Middle East. In my view, this strategy should include taking | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
the action in Syria I have spoken about. I hope that in setting out | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
the arguments in this way, I can help build support across this House | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
for the action that I believe is necessary. That is what I will be | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
putting in place over the coming days, and I hope colleagues from | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
across the House will engage with that and make clear their views so | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
we can have a strong vote in this House of Commons and do the right | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
thing for our country. That was the Prime Minister in the House of | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
Commons a few moments ago. He is going to take the unusual step of | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
responding personally to the foreign affairs select committee report | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
calling for a plan for a wider peace in Syria, and he will set out a road | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
map that he believes will have more action to take against Isil. Do you | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
support air strikes against Isis in Syria? I agree that we have to do | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
everything we can to defeat this evil organisation. But before we go | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
to military action, let's get the government to get the terminology | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
right and defeat the propaganda. At the moment, so-called Isil want to | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
be called an Islamic State. We have just talked about why over 600 | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
British nationals have been sucked into fighting for this even | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
organisation. The government has to get the strategy right to defeat | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
their organisation right and get the terminology right. And then you will | :59:00. | :59:07. | |
support air strikes? This time, I want to see the strategy put forward | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
before I decide whether to support them. | :59:11. | :59:11. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage of | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
He brought ground-breaking, subversive shows | :59:20. | :59:31. | |
He was the most brilliant young producer. | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
He was the only one that could really keep up with me. | :59:37. | :59:38. | |
'While you're alive, you have to live.' | :59:39. | :59:41. |