Browse content similar to 30/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
It's set to be a big political week, with the government poised to hold | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
a Commons vote on whether to extend air strikes into Syria. | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
The position taken by Jeremy Corbyn and Labour could prove decisive. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
He's against military action and is about to meet with | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
But with many MPs thought to back air strikes, can he find | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
The Conservative Party chairman Lord Feldman - | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
a close ally of the Prime Minister - comes under fire over | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
the handling of claims of bullying, blackmail and sexual harassment in | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
Is it the job of the government to tell people how | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
As a committee of MPs backs a tax on sugary drinks, we'll be asking | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
I'm normally against tax, but you see these fat kids, and one glass of | :01:25. | :01:37. | |
non-Diet Coke is the equivalent to about eight spoonfuls of sugar, I | :01:38. | :01:38. | |
probably got that wrong! And we'll be looking at those MPs | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
hoping to make the cut and win by a whisker - yes, it's the annual vote | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
to find parliament's best beard. All that in the next hour and with | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
us for the whole of the programme today the Conservative MP Neil | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
Parish and the Labour MP Rupa Huq. So first today let's talk | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
about whether the UK will extend The RAF is already carrying out | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
bombing raids against the so-called Islamic State | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
in Iraq, and the government has been making the case that British jets | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
should also be able to target Ministers have spent the weekend | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
trying to persuade wavering MPs to back a possible government | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
motion to approve the bombing. They've continued to insist they | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
will hold a vote on air strikes only if it is certain | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
it has the clear support of the Commons, which means winning | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
the backing of many Labour MPs. Let's have a listen to | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
the defence secretary Michael Fallon, who yesterday took to the | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
Andrew Marr Show to make his case. We've already got permission to deal | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
with Isil in Iraq at the edges, helping | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
the Iraqi government push back Isil, but it makes no sense simply to be | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
dealing with Isil in Iraq. When Isil is headquartered in | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
North East Syria. Now, Isil is not just | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
a threat to Iraq and Syria. Isil is a very direct | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
threat to this country. Let me put it this way, last year | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
there were 15 Isil-related attacks worldwide, and this year there | :03:07. | :03:15. | |
have already been 150 attacks. We've seen this recently, | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
not just in Ankara and Beirut, we've There is a very direct threat to | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
this country from letting Isil Rupa Huq, has David Cameron and | :03:23. | :03:36. | |
Michael Fallon convinced you have the case for air strikes against | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
Isil in Syria? Need them have been on the phone to me, as has been | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
reported, that Labour MPs have been phoned by conservatives the | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
weekend, none of them have got me on speed dial. Would you like a call | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
from them? This is a very difficult decision, and there is no right | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
answer, what ever happens it looks like blood will be shed and lives | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
will be lost, it is a difficult question. You will be asked to make | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
a decision, what is your thought at the moment? We need the least bad | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
outcome, I need to look at what I'm presented to vote on, but at the | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
moment I'm not minded to vote for targeted air strikes on Syria. Can | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
you be persuaded? It is unlikely, we have a messy civil war with at least | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
six different sides, and tragic as the events of Paris were, and they | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
are sickening and shocking, but a 3 figure number of people lost their | :04:33. | :04:34. | |
lives going to a pop concert, and I'm not sure there is a direct | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
correlation that we should start bombing now as a result of that. | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
What about your colleagues in the Labour Party? Most of the people | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
I've spoken to are very sceptical about air strikes right now. Most of | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
your Parliamentary colleagues? There are 232 of those, I speak to most of | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
the new intake and there is not a big appetite for it, I don't think. | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
In your mind, Labour MPs, their views against air strikes are | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
hardening? The figure of 70,000 Free Syrian Army troops who are waiting | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
for us to join them, that does not seem credible for many people. Even | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
Julian Lewis, very respected defence expert, the chair of the select | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
committee, and a conservative, he said that, in the house on Thursday. | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
They are too many unknowns. Where do you stand? I will back the Prime | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
Minister and I believe we need to do with Isil in Iraq and also in Syria | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
where their headquarters are, and we have had some good effect in | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
rolling back some of their territory. The more territory they | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
have, the more money they get, the more potential they have two cores | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
grieve to ourselves and our allies -- two cores grieve. | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
grieve to ourselves and our allies complex situation, but as Liam Fox | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
said on Thursday, Isil dislike and fight against everything we | :06:04. | :06:04. | |
represent in the way of free speech and freedom and they want to destroy | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
us, so we have got to take action. If they can be heard a | :06:12. | :06:13. | |
us, so we have got to take action. dentist, her only crime was to deal | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
with female patients as dentist, her only crime was to deal | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
deal with these people, and making it out to be complex, that does not | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
give the excuse not to take action. Pretty much every military expert | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
has said without grand -- ground troops, Isil cannot be defeated. Is | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
there one ready to move in? There are troops there, it is a difficult | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
situation, we probably have got special advisers and special troops | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
there, who can help, and I think we will need to do more there. I don't | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
think any of us at this stage want to put ground troops onto the | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
ground, but we do accept that you will need those troops in order to | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
get rid of Isil, but we will weaken them, we have got some very smart | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
weapons which will actually help. Hilary Benn, the | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
weapons which will actually help. Secretary is convinced that, as | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
well. That the advances of Isil in Iraq have been restricted, | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
well. That the advances of Isil in same could be said of Syria. There | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
has been bombing for the past same could be said of Syria. There | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
and arguably Isil have grown and got stronger, and so I'm not convinced. | :07:28. | :07:29. | |
Where? In Syria? I'm stronger, and so I'm not convinced. | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
a year now, stronger, and so I'm not convinced. | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
current mission -- the original coalition for bombing, they don't | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
have the same aims, we are getting into some tricky situations. The | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
world is not perfect, these people will destroy the very fabric of what | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
we believe in, we have got to take action against them, in this | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
imperfect world. Those people who did the Paris thing, they were | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Belgian and French nationals, I don't see how bombing Syria... Their | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
resources come from the Middle East, very much from the ordeal which Isil | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
is selling. They are linked. -- very much from the oil. Where ever they | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
are national song, they are still linked to Isil and we have got to | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
deal with them -- where ever they are nationals from. Bombing is | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
indiscriminate and there are always unintended consequences, I have had | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
representations from a British Arab group which said World Heritage | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
sites will be destroyed. Many of them have been destroyed already. | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
Isil have destroyed them. Let's hold it there for a moment, you | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
articulating the difficult arguments and decisions which MPs are going to | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
have to make on this issue if a vote comes forward. The Labour position | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
on whether to comes forward. The Labour position | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
strikes into Syria will prove decisive this week. | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
But it could also prove decisive for the future of Jeremy Corbyn's | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
party, because a major split has developed between Mr Corbyn and many | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
of his MPs over whether to support or oppose further military action. | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
The Corbyn-supporting grassroots group Momentum spent the weekend | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
emailing Labour Party members, urging them to lobby MPs to support | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
Mr Corbyn has said he will not support British air strikes, | :09:20. | :09:30. | |
but that's not the position of much of his Shadow Cabinet. | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
Deputy leader Tom Watson and Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
are just two of the senior party figures in | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
After criticism of Mr Corbyn's stance by some Labour MPs, Unite | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
general-secretary Len McCluskey suggested public dissenters were | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
guilty of trying to exploit disagreements over Syria to try and | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
oust Mr Corbyn - something he said would "sicken all decent people". | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
The debate now comes down to whether or not Labour MPs receive | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has made it clear he supports allowing | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
all MPs to vote freely, according to their conscience, | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
as a decision to go to war should be "above party politics". | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
But this morning shadow international development secretary | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
Diane Abbott said that the party membership, and the | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
country, wants to see Labour oppose the air strikes, and that that would | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
On Sunday, Jeremy Corbyn said that despite Labour tensions he wasn't | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
going anywhere, and that as leader it was up to him to decide | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
if the party should collectively oppose action in Syria. | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
Well, in about an hour Jeremy Corbyn will meet his shadow cabinet, | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
so it's set to be a turbulent day for the leadership and the party. | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
Our deputy political editor James Landale can tell us more. | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
Has significant is today for the Labour leader and be party? Hugely | :10:53. | :11:00. | |
significant. Essentially the inconsistencies that have existed | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
since Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party will come | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
to a head, this is a crunch point. What we are seeing, a power struggle | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
about where authority lies within the Labour family. It Jeremy Corbyn | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
decides to whip his MPs and said they should follow him and oppose | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
extending military action to Syria, is argument will be will be that he | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
has a mandate from his party, he's newly elected, and this is the | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
decision a leader makes, and he will give evidence through an e-mail, and | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
we are assuming he will say there is a fair amount of support for his | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
position, and he will present the Shadow Cabinet with a position, | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
saying, this is my point but I'm going to be a leader, I will make | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
that decision. And then the Shadow Cabinet will have to make a decision | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
as to whether they will challenge that. What is coming to a head, the | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
power struggle which has been lingering for some weeks between the | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
Shadow Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn. They could choose not to resign, but | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
that would leave Jeremy Corbyn asserting his power over the Shadow | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
Cabinet in that instant, in order to keep the party together, the Shadow | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
Cabinet together at the very least. No one is issued and there will be | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
mass resignations, it is possible for members of the Shadow Cabinet, | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
they could decide to vote against the party and then almost challenged | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Jeremy Corbyn to sack them -- no one is assuming they will be mass | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
resignations. That is one potential option, and others, the members of | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
the Shadow Cabinet could decide to resign beforehand, but if a decision | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
is made today, do they resign immediately? Do they wait on to a | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
motion is put before the House of Commons? There is no point in them | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
resigning now, if David Cameron decides to not do a vote in 48 | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
hours, that's a possibility. James, thanks. | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
To discuss this we're joined by Dan Hodges of the Daily Telegraph, and | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
Rachel Shabi, who is a contributing writer for The Guardian. | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
And of course our guests of the day Rupa and Neil are still here. | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
Rupa, should the party be whipped to that view? There is a good argument | :13:12. | :13:20. | |
of having a free vote, Jeremy Corbyn has often voted against the whip, | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
and so it would be part of his open inclusive top-down leadership, and | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
given the range of opinions with the Labour Party, that is a good idea. | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
John McDonnell has said that he does not think Jeremy Corbyn is minded to | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
that, would you think it is a mistake if he puts his win on the | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
Shadow Cabinet? The only people who like the stories about a split | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
party, that is the Conservatives, but the headlines in the Tory press | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
would be more obvious, if it was a whipped vote. This is an issue of | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
conscience, and there is a point when it goes above party politics. I | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
was with Ken Clarke last week, the Conservative who held many great | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
offices of state under many governments, he said he was against | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
the Iraq war, and sometimes these are conscience decisions which are | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
above party politics. Yes, we know some of them already, is it a matter | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
of conscience, or is it, as Diane Abbott has said, oppositions of war | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
and peace, you have got to have an agreed position and if you are Her | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
Majesty 's loyal opposition? The Labour Party will be asked to fulfil | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
its primary function as the official opposition, and to pass judgment on | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
whether the country should go to war and clearly they are going to fail | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
in their obligation to do that one way or another, we will not have a | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
coherent position within the Labour Party and that is a shameful | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
situation, but that is the reality of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
It is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is minded to whip his party. He is | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
going into that meeting intending to whip the shadow candidate. We heard | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
Diane Abbott saying on his behalf that a free vote would be to hand | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
the victory to David Cameron. I think Jeremy Corbyn has misjudged | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
his Shadow Cabinet. I think he felt over the weekend that the bullying | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
we have seen from groups like Momentum and the pressure he was | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
putting on the Shadow Cabinet would bring them into line. I think when | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
he goes into that meeting he will find out it has not been success. | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
Has Jeremy Corbyn mishandled it so far? Dan Hodges calls it bullying | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
tactics from the likes of Momentum, letter sent out to MPs saying that | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
they must consult their constituents, and pressure will be | :15:47. | :15:48. | |
brought to bear if they did not come back with a view against air | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
strikes. I don't know if it is bullying if you are being asked to | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
consider carefully a significant decision which the Conservatives | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
have failed to make a case in favour of. And I don't want to do a -- I | :16:00. | :16:09. | |
don't want to diminish this, but this is not about the Labour Party, | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
it is about Syrians and Iraqis and really quite damaging consequences, | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
potentially, for the rest of Europe. And I think what Jeremy Corbyn is | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
trying to do is change the flavour of the politics that we are having, | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
and that is one of the reasons he was voted for so overwhelmingly, and | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
that is why he has this mandate from the Labour Party faithful who oppose | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
air strikes because, again, there has not really been a convincing | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
case in favour of those strikes. It's clear that we should do | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
something about Islamic State but it's not necessarily clear that the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
something should be bombing. There are plenty of other alternative is | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
not being discussed. Does he not better reflect Labour Party members | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
and many constituents in Labour constituencies around the country | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
with blue it is not the job to reflect Labour Party members, it | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
is. -- it is not the job to reflect Labour Party members, it is to | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
reflect the country. There is a very large plurality. You can't possibly | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
say that. Let down finish and I will come back to both of you. In support | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
of military action. The important thing has to be said, the opponents | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
of war are trying to construct this is a debate about people of | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
principle who oppose war against these Blairite warmongers, that is | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
not the case. There are people on both sides who have very strongly | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
held convictions. And as we've seen over the weekend and as we've seen | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
in terms of the nature of the debate as has come from the Jeremy Corbyn | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
camp, it is actually the Corbin supporters making it into a | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
political issue, and the Corbynites turning this into a loyalty test to | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
the leader of the Labour Party and that is absolutely shameful. Isn't | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
that true? Len McCluskey made his statement, Diane Abbott made her | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
statement this morning. There were veiled threats to those in the | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
Shadow Cabinet and other MPs who do not follow what the line will be | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
from Jeremy Corbyn when he knows that they are at odds with his own | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary, his own deputy leader, isn't the fate of the | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
Labour Party important in this, too? Here we are talking about Jeremy | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
Corbyn politicising the decision by politicising what he is doing. If | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
you heard him talk on Andrew Marr on Sunday he was presenting the case | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
against air strikes. I'm not saying that the people who support air | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
strikes are unprincipled, and just saying they have failed to make a | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
convincing case. We need to have that conversation and that's what | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
he's trying to do, and that's why he's asked for MPs to go back to | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
their constituents and have that conversation. With respect, he is | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
entitled to do that, but a large number of the people in the Labour | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
Party disagree with him from a point of principle. They think there will | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
be a threat to this country if we do not intervene. The difference | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
between the camps is that Jeremy Corbyn is allowed to put forward his | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
view, the opponents of Jeremy Corbyn are being told that if they disagree | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn they will face deselection. Now that is bullying. | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn they will face Well, Len McCluskey | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn they will face said that, he said they will be | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
playing with fire. The director of Momentum has published, who also | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
edits the website, published an article | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
edits the website, published an deselection. You are not seriously | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
sitting there... They have no constitutional process. You are the | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
one turning this into a schoolyard debate, we are trying to have debate | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
about whether to go into Syria or not. Let him speak. Are you | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
seriously saying that there are not letters going round, there is not | :20:02. | :20:03. | |
pressure being brought to bear on your colleagues to be deselected if | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
they don't do what Jeremy Corbyn your colleagues to be deselected if | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
does on this issue? I've not heard of a real MP who has had that. | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
You've not heard it? of a real MP who has had that. | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
one myself, I voted for Yvette Cooper for leader. What about | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
threats of deselection? Some of this is just media hot air and in reality | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
this is bigger than Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, this is about going to | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
war. Has he or his supporters made it an of loyalty? Has it really come | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
out of the ether in that sense, or is it as a result of briefings on | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
both sides? In the end, if there is not a free vote, which you are | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
calling for, which John McDonnell is calling for, would you expect Shadow | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
Cabinet members to stick to their guns and defy what would be the will | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
of the leadership? The thing is, it should be of no surprise that Jeremy | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
Corbyn is anti-war, it has been country be consistent for 35 years. | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
You nominated him, didn't you? So did 35 other people. Did you regret | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
it? No, I did not want a contest of three people saying the same thing, | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
I wanted all wings of the party reflected. Do you think that Shadow | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
Cabinet members who, as a matter of conscience, would like to vote for | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
air strikes, should resign if there is a whipped vote by Jeremy Corbyn? | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
It's not for me to tell them whether they should resign. Would you expect | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
them to on a matter of conscience? I expect them to do what their | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
conscience tells them they should do. But we are trying to shift the | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
conversation away from an orthodoxy that for decades has had a military | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
interventionist take on the fight against terror. We are trying to | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
change that. One of the reasons Corbyn was elected was to change | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
that, so let's have that conversation. And he has support for | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
it. Shouldn't it be dissenting MPs come if you like, Dan Hodges, who | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
have been accused of trying to plot and out Jeremy Corbyn, who should | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
fall into the line that Rachel Xavi says is prevalent? To answer your | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
question, if there is a whip, it is quite clear that members of the | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
Shadow Cabinet that wish to vote against it should resign, they have | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
a principle of collective responsibility. Jeremy Corbyn is | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
doing everything he can to destroy that principle. Perhaps they are. | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
Again, I'm very sorry, I know this is difficult for you to understand. | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
I know it is difficult for you to understand! It may come as a shock | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
to you that there are people of conviction and principle that | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
disagree with you. That's fine. I know that is a shock. There are | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
people out there who genuinely believe if we do not act against the | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
Isis threat we will see 200 people dead in London, and you may disagree | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
. They are convinced of their view without the same kinds of threats | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
and intimidation. You keep saying it is Corbyn that has created the | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
politics of this, that is my issue with you. Well who has, Father | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
Christmas? It is not about whether people should have a principled | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
opposition to him, that is fine, but let's have the debate without | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
getting distracted into this schoolyard brawl that you are trying | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
to create. You are letting your hate for Corbyn blind your judgment. With | :23:30. | :23:37. | |
respect, it is the hatred of the Corbynites for those who have any | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
different view to them, which is why we saw the comments from Len | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
McCluskey, why we have had the threats from Momentum and continuing | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
threat of deselection. Both of you will have to leave it there but we | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
will of course keep you updated in what happens on BBC News. | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
The question for today is all about beards. | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
Nice change of tone, there. Yes, you came appropriately attired in that | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
sense, Dan. Which hirsute Member of Parliament | :24:07. | :24:07. | |
is tipped to win the Parliamentary beard of the year | :24:08. | :24:09. | |
for a record sixth time? Is it Paul Flynn, Stephen Crabb, | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
John Spellar or Jeremy Corbyn. At the end of the show Neil and Rupa | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
will give us the correct answer. One of the lesser-noticed proposals | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
in George Osborne's spending review last week was the decision to cut | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
what's known as short money. It was introduced | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
by the then-Leader of the House It was designed to help opposition | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
parties "more effectively fulfil The bill for the taxpayer | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
this year is ?9.3 million. The amount each party gets depends | :24:42. | :24:55. | |
on how many MPs they have and how many votes they got | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
at the last election. So most of the money this year, | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
nearly ?5.8 million, And the SNP also get | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
a sizeable chunk - they've received So cutting taxpayer funding | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
for politicians is bound to prove popular with many, | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
but it hasn't gone down well with others including the | :25:11. | :25:12. | |
Labour Party - and shadow Commons Hello, how are you? I'm fine, and | :25:13. | :25:31. | |
you? We will come onto that. Every part of the political sector -- | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
public sector is making a contribution to cuts. The short | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
money is there so that all parties can do a proper job of criticising | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
the government. The government has the whole of the civil service, and | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
a budget to be able to go and visit whatever institution, so for | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
instance the prisons minister can visit prisons, surely so should | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
opposition portfolio holders like the shadow ministers be allowed to | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
visit prisons as well. But shouldn't there be a contribution from | :26:06. | :26:07. | |
opposition parties or political parties in general to tackling the | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
deficit? I would be right behind that if it weren't for the fact that | :26:15. | :26:15. | |
what the government has done in this same period is increase the number | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
of special advisers party political appointees have gone up from 79 to | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
103. An extra cost of ?2.5 million every year all going to party | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
members. And George Osborne has got ten special advisers. And they did | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
say they would reduce that bill, they said that in 2010 and they | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
didn't. But on principle you would not be against a reduction in the | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
amount of short money? I'm happy to see, if we are considering the whole | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
cost of politics, but on top of that the government has added ?2.9 | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
million per year by appointing more members to the House of Lords, 240 | :26:50. | :27:04. | |
more members, the fastest any Prime Minister has ever appointed | :27:05. | :27:06. | |
ministers, all again for party political covers, and I think that | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
is a problem. In the end we have a constitutional settlement in this | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
country which is that Her Majesty 's loyal opposition play a vital part | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
in making sure the government does a good job. It is wrong for the | :27:15. | :27:16. | |
government single-handedly and unilaterally to cut that money. If | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
you were to win in 2020 of course you could say it would be the Tories | :27:20. | :27:21. | |
that would have less short money. That's very unfair because when we | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
were in government we introduced it in the first place, and in 1997 when | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
the Tory party thought it was down on its knees and never going to | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
recuperate, we travelled short money. They claimed ?45.7 million. | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
We have been honourable in this and the government is being utterly | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
despicable and dishonourable. So, despicable and dishonourable? I | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
would not go as far as to say that. We have cut back the civil service | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
by about ?2.5 billion. What about special advisers? They have not been | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
cut as much as they should have been, they have gone up, I access | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
the figures. I believe that overall we have taken the right decisions to | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
reduce the cost of government. I think people out there in expect | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
opposition parties to raise money, to fund themselves to a degree we | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
had to do that. You took ?45.7 million. That does not fund the | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
political party. Naturally the Labour Party takes a great deal of | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
money from trade unions and we get money from other sources as well. | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
But I don't think people necessarily expect taxpayer money to fund | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
politics. That may be, but why is it that the number of special | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
advisers, the number of paid appointments by the government has | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
gone up, if this government is so committed to trying to reduce the | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
amount of money that is spent by taxpayers on this particular area? | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
Why is it that we have seen large numbers of people brought into the | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
House of Lords? It is growing in some areas. Let me deal with the | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
situation vis-a-vis the House of Lords. When we came into government, | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
after ten or 12 years of Blair government, we actually had 28% of | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
the members of the House of Lords. Therefore there is a really good | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
reason. That's a good way of deflecting. You have appointed... | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
I'm not going to take you on the nose. You have appointed people into | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
the House of Lords, the Prime Minister has appointed ten times as | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
many barren since he became Prime Minister than there Runnymede, and | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
yet he goes on about democracy. He wants to cut the number of elected | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
MPs but increased the number of unelected figures. Dent or shout | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
because nobody can hear you. Chris, go ahead. Another interesting | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
thing, the government has decided, there is also cram more money that | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
goes to opposition parties, it has decided to not cut that because they | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
do not have a majority in the House of Lords, so they will let that go | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
on. It is utterly reprehensible, the way the government is behaving. It | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
is unconstitutional, and quite a lot of Tory MPs, and to be honest I | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
think Neil agrees, he is smiling, he is going to go back and tell them. | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
Your lips are sealed, is the expression. But your top lip is | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
sweating, I think that means you agree with me. | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
Is opposition for democracy? Yes, it | :30:24. | :30:33. | |
is. We have just enough time, to discuss... It is one of those hidden | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
measures, it is not get headlines the way that splits do. The Shadow | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
Cabinet meeting is at o'clock, what are you going to be saying? It | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
depends on what Jeremy Corbyn says, are you going to be saying? It | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
but it will be on my conscience, is there was another attack by Isil and | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
British targets in this country -- on British targets in this country, | :30:57. | :30:58. | |
we will not have on British targets in this country, | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
in Syria, when the French president is in favour and the United Nations | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
is in favour, when we are already bombing Isil in Iraq. It should be a | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
free vote? I would prefer it to be a free vote. If it isn't, and Jeremy | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
Corbyn says, I am the leader and I will decide, I'm whipping by Shadow | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
Cabinet to vote against, what will you do? I'm not sure whose decision | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
it is to make, but I've had this conversation with you many times | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
before on this programme, hypothetical questions begin with | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
the word is. Diane Abbott, we speak to her, about the representative | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
that she seems to be of Jeremy Corbyn, she says it should be a | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
whipped vote, and a whipped vote against air strikes, and if that is | :31:52. | :31:53. | |
the case, are you going to vote against question not every time you | :31:54. | :32:07. | |
put the word if Janette -- every time you put the word if in, it is | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
hypothetical question. If I vote against military action against | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
Isil... Someone said May, could we not appoint a negotiator to | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
negotiate between Isil and Rouble? That is dangerously naive. -- Isil | :32:26. | :32:34. | |
and us? I would prefer a free vote. I have not come on this programme to | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
talk about that, I came to talk about something else, and I would | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
prefer to have that conversation privately in the Shadow Cabinet. But | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
you have asked the question and I have tried to answer this as | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
straightforward as I can. It feels like Civil War. Maybe it does, but | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
I'm very focused on, if a constituent of mine worked on | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
holidays somewhere, and there was a attack, would I have failed in my | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
duty by refusing to countenance military strikes? I know all of the | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
dangers, not always convinced by David Cameron and all the rest of | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
it, but in the end, would I have failed that person? Right,, Chris | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
Bryant, thanks. David Cameron has joined other world | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
leaders in Paris today to try and negotiate a new global deal | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
on climate change. Jeremy Corbyn will face his MPs | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
tonight in a meeting Junior doctors will walk out | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
on strike tomorrow morning unless the Government and the BMA can reach | :33:42. | :33:52. | |
a last-minute deal in talks On Wednesday it's PMQs of course - | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
with a vote on airstrikes in Syria expected this week we can expect | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
a fiery encounter. It could be another chance for | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
Jeremy Corbyn to quiz the Prime Minister over air strikes in Syria. | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
Thursday sees the first major electoral test for Labour since May | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
It's a safe Labour seat but Ukip are expected to make a strong showing. | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
We're joined now from a windy College Green by | :34:21. | :34:22. | |
Stephen Bush from the New Statesman, and by Harry Cole from the Sun. | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
Stephen, this should be a safe Labour seat in Oldham West, 14,000 | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
majority was left by MIchael Meacher, what is going on there? The | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
picture from Central office, they say it looks good and the numbers | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
are holding up and they think they will win it by 2000 votes, but | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
everyone who has been down to Oldham, comes back with a face like | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
thunder, and they say that Jeremy Corbyn's remarks and shoot to kill | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
not going down very well with the white working class boat, but if | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
they can get out enough of the Asian population, they will probably be | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
able to hold the seat. Harry Cole, John McDonnell says Ukip is an evil | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
force within our society, admitting that the margins of the by-election | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
will be very narrow, how will that go down? That says much more about | :35:15. | :35:23. | |
John McDonnell compared with Ukip. The Ukip voters were voting not that | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
long ago for Labour, and so that as an attack on former Labour voters, | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
if anything. This is one of those pressure points, everyone sought | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
next May's local elections and the London mayor elections as the first | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
chance to see Jeremy Corbyn's impact, but we are seeing this now. | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
It is shaping up to be the most remarkable week for a very long time | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
in British politics. We have the slow drumbeat to war, on one side, | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
and the divisions this is causing in Labour, and you also have the Tory | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
party imploding themselves, for the horrendous cover-up scandal. | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
Regarding the story which has engulfed the Tory party, these are | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
claims of bullying and harassment which were not dealt with properly | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
allegedly, a Conservative Central office. -- at. There are now calls | :36:13. | :36:22. | |
for an independent inquiry, is that going to happen? It will have to, it | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
seems inevitable by the end of the week, that the previous chairman of | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
the Conservative Party and the incumbent will have to have stood | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
down, you cannot have a situation where the chair is marking its own | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
homework, as it were, and so there will need to be and above inquiry. | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
Do you agree with that, Harry Cole? Grant Shapps has already resigned. | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
There was the hope and feeling within number ten that if Grant | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
Shapps was to resign that might take the pressure out of the scandal, but | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
if anything it has done the opposite. It has heaped huge | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
pressure on Lord Feldman, why, when Grant Shapps says it was a joint | :37:04. | :37:12. | |
decision to hire Mark Clarke, Lord Feldman's name was on the checks, | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
and do not forget he was the party chairman who has overseen the last | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
few months, including the tragic suicide of a young activist. The | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
questions must be piling up for Mr Feldman. Thanks to both of you. | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
Let's pick up on a story we've just been discussing, that's | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
the pressure on the Conservative chairman Andrew Feldman over | :37:33. | :37:34. | |
the handling of complaints against a Tory activist called Mark Clarke. | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
We've been joined by the executive editor of the Conservative Home | :37:38. | :37:39. | |
Do you think Lord Feldman should resign? Yes, his position has become | :37:40. | :37:52. | |
untenable for a number of reasons, not least because Grant Shapps | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
resigned, he recommended this decision, that the approach to Mark | :37:58. | :38:07. | |
Clarke was the way to go. Grant Shapps could suggest things, but | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
Lord Feldman had to sign them off, and approve them, and so I think his | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
position has become untenable. He's very close to the Prime Minister and | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
has been for time, is this costly to the Prime Minister? It is personally | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
costly, Lord Feldman is a long serving and I and he has done many | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
good things as the party chairman. -- long serving ally. He made many | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
of the decisions, positive decisions come which did work in terms of the | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
party's ground war which helped to win the general election. You don't | :38:39. | :38:48. | |
think the Prime -- you don't think that he can survive, then, do you | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
think this needs to be fully independent, the inquiry? Yes, | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
absolutely, we reported on our website, Conservative Home, there he | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
is a call for an independent inquiry, and it is not good enough, | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
that employees of the Conservative Party should go to a statement, | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
effectively enquiring of their own boss, and then they passed that on | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
to be checked by Clifford chance, that is not good enough, we need an | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
independent inquiry, to open the doors come to investigate this | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
properly, and then the findings have to be published. Regarding the | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
findings and what will be investigated, you match -- mentioned | :39:33. | :39:42. | |
the baroness, she has agreed to look into a new campaign, regarding Mark | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
Clarke, who is at the sense of these allegations, she is accused of | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
leaking the names to Mark Clarke, that would be part of the | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
investigation, but what else? Who knew what about Mark Clarke and | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
when, before he was brought back into the fold and we need to know | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
after he was brought back into the fold, what complaints were formally | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
made and who received them. Baroness Warsi said she made a complaint. | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
Indeed. Other complaints have been made, as alleged victims. We need to | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
know exactly what happened to those complaints, we also need to know | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
things like, what are the safeguarding procedures for young | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
people involved in the Conservative Party's activities? It is important, | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
if you care about Conservative values and you are interested in the | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
same things as the party, you should be able to go out and campaign for | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
those things, and that should be encouraged, but people need to be | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
safe while they do it. Mark Clarke has denied the allegations made | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
against him, what is your view about Andrew Feldman? I don't usually go | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
at this stage, but there has to be a proper inquiry and whether that | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
needs to be independent... For the family, who had a great loss, if I | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
had lost a son, I would expect nothing more, and I think we have | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
got to make sure that we handle this properly and this is not just about | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
justice, it is about justice being seen to be done. It is not | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
altogether about whose head should roll, it is about making sure we | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
investigate thoroughly what happened to stop it ever happening again. | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
There needs to be accountability? Yes, and Grant Shapps has taken that | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
in many ways. That was the right thing to do? I think it was. It is | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
for the Prime Minister and Lord Feldman to decide on his particular | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
fate, but I also think it is for the Conservative Party to make sure that | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
we do thoroughly investigate but also that it is open and people | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
actually believe us and the family believe us and we stamp out the | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
problem. There is no point whatsoever, it would be Das Dudley | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
to cover it up in any shape or form, so I would suggest that it will be | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
much more open than it is at the moment, I suspect. Thanks. | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
151 heads of state and other world leaders have arrived | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
in Pairs this morning ahead of a global climate change summit, which | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
organisers say makes it the largest meeting of its kind in history. | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
Most of the discussions are expected to centre on an agreement to limit | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
global warming to 2C, but the last such meeting ended in failure. | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
Let's listen to UN Secretary General Ban-Ki Moon. | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
The national climate plans, summited by more than 180 countries | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
as of today, cover close to 100% of global emissions. | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
But we need to go much faster, much further, if we are to limit the | :42:48. | :42:58. | |
We need a universal, meaningful and robust agreement, here in Paris. | :42:59. | :43:15. | |
We need a universal, meaningful and is likely, but will this be enough? | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
We need a universal, meaningful and Will it be enough to tackle climate | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
change and global warming? We have had the summers before, Copenhagen, | :43:27. | :43:27. | |
that was had the summers before, Copenhagen, | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
remember, there has got had the summers before, Copenhagen, | :43:33. | :43:34. | |
political will, and a change of behaviour -- have had these summits | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
before. Our reliance on fossil fuels and cars and all those things, we | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
need to look at that. Under the Tory subsidies, renewals have been | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
slashed and onshore wind farms have been opposed, what ever happened to | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
the greenest government ever? If you come to Devon, I will show you, | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
there are many solar panels, we are producing electricity, you cannot go | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
on covering more manned with solar panels, just in order to have a | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
feeding tariff to do that -- covering more land. We now need to | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
make sure, as Britain and those major economies, help the developing | :44:16. | :44:24. | |
world, to reduce their carbon. But what about the developed world? We | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
do, but with the developed world what about the developed world? We | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
the very developing world like China, we have got to make sure that | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
it is not just Europe, and America, it is also China, the Far East, | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
because in the end, we have got to play our part, but it is global | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
warming, and if we are going to do any real good introducing global | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
temperatures we have got to tackle this right across, and I don't think | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
our government's record on delivering renewables is bad at all | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
can we have tidal power in the River Severn, and also in the channel, and | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
we are building up a nuclear power station at Hinkley point which will | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
reduce our needs for electricity. Therefore, we are doing our bit. | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
Why should the UK and other developed countries being the only | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
ones playing their part in trying to reduce global warning if we don't | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
have some of the big developing nations on board who are some of the | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
biggest polluters as well, it will be worthless. It does take political | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
will from all sides. This government has had an extra good. Pre-election | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
it was going to be the greenest government ever, and wasn't Cameron | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
reported as saying "cut the green stuff" after he was elected. This | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
government has had Owen Paterson, who was a climate change denier. How | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
is that going to stop a global agreement being reached, doesn't it | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
have to be global? It isn't just about what the UK does, otherwise we | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
are doing it when others aren't, you are not achieving your goal. I do | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
agree, and it is a global problem, and in the Times of globalisation it | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
requires a global solution. Prime Minister Modi has said that it | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
shouldn't all fall to third world countries either. Do you think the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Conservative Party now is more sceptical about needing to tackle | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
this in the way they perhaps thought? There are some sceptics | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
within the party, and I think we've got to be careful that we don't | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
blame every hurricane, everything on climate change, because there are | :46:39. | :46:46. | |
patterns as well. But if you look at actually our record in government on | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
delivering on green energy it is actually good. But there hasn't been | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
consistency, has there? I also really buy into what the Prime | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
Minister wants to do and that is help the developing world help | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
themselves on climate change. Many of us have visited China. You do not | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
see the sun in Beijing. That is the level of pollution. We have got to | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
get that dealt with. Is an agreement at two Celsius enough when there are | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
developing countries who say, at that level, if that is the deal, | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
that will still wreak havoc on large parts of the developing world, the | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
impact will hit the poorest, do you accept that? My view is that if we | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
can get 2% agreed across the globe, then it will do a great deal of good | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
toward stopping global warming. We are not going to stamp it out | :47:36. | :47:37. | |
completely, we've got to slow it down. And I think we've got to be | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
very practical. You can talk about figures as much as you like. Until | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
we get people like the Chinese government reducing their cars, the | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
type of cars they've got, producing more electric cars, bringing in all | :47:51. | :47:52. | |
the things that we also need to do here, I accept that, but unless we | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
do that across the globe and influence it, we will not really | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
dramatically reduce the temperature. Before we move on there is just some | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
breaking news, the Labour Party has put out, 75% of Labour Party members | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
oppose air strikes in Syria. It doesn't surprise me. | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
Now is it the government's business whether you want to eat | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
Well a Commons committee thinks it should be, and today they've backed | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
a whole series of measures they say will help tackle obesity including | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
So does this represent a sensible measure to improve the health of | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
our children, or is it an unwelcome intrusion from the nanny state? | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
We gave Ellie a couple of cans of pop | :48:34. | :48:35. | |
I could really do with a sugar boost. | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
Don't some MPs want to put a 20% tax on sugary drinks? | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
# "Sweets For My Sweet" - The Searchers | :48:46. | :48:54. | |
You only have to look left right and centre to see that people are | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
struggling from being overweight and the consequences are dire | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
People should know what is good for themselves, and the government | :49:01. | :49:11. | |
You have an opinion on most things, don't you? | :49:12. | :49:22. | |
Sugary drinks, should there be a tax? | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
I'm normally against tax, but you see these fat kids now and, | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
what is it, one glass of non-Diet Coke is the equivalent | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
You have a fabulous looking very green drink. | :49:36. | :49:52. | |
Do you think there should be a tax on sugary drinks? | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
Maybe less advertising, that is probably more powerful. | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
I look at some fat people and think, God, | :49:59. | :50:08. | |
This is a problem of behaviour, not of price, this is a socialist | :50:09. | :50:31. | |
And do you drink a lot of sugary drinks? | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
Do you know there is nothing sweeter than a mood box on a Monday morning? | :50:37. | :50:46. | |
We've got people's opinions all fizzed up | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
and it would seem the majority think a sugar tax is a good idea. | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
So that was the view of commuters in London this morning. | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
Well, the chair of the Commons health committee | :50:58. | :50:59. | |
This is the nanny state gone mad, for a Conservative politician? It is | :51:00. | :51:11. | |
not the nanny state gone mad. If you let at the scale of the problem, a | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
quarter of the most disadvantaged children are leaving primary school | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
not just overweight but obese. It opens up a huge gap in health | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
inequality and it is something we can do something about with a range | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
of sensible measures. Not one single thing to solve this, we need a range | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
of policies to tackle it from a range of angles. But it is very | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
unlike the Conservatives to tax sugar, as you said, only one part of | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
a strategy that would tackle obesity, but in itself it won't | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
actually do what you wanted to do. We know in Mexico for example it | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
reduced consumption by 6% and in the heaviest consumers I 9%. So it does | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
make a difference. Nobody needs to pay this tax, but it is about | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
nudging people to make more sensible choices. It is not a tax on more | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
sugar, not in biscuits, crisps, or the sugar you buy on the shelf, it | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
is just fizzy drinks. And that matters because a of children who | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
are teenagers, there should be in take is coming just from fizzy | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
drinks. If you have a small price differential, what it does, it | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
nudges people to buy the diet product. It takes at a stroke a | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
significant chunk of these wasted calories out of people's diet. Alan | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
Duncan called it a socialist solution. I disagree with him. Go | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
and look at the evidence and say, are we comfortable as | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
Conservatives? The really regressive thing for me is that we are failing | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
the most disadvantaged children in our society. We could put every | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
penny raised from this into a really exciting programme that would be | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
targeted specifically at the most disadvantaged communities and | :52:50. | :52:51. | |
schools. I think you can do an enormous amount of good with this | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
money and nobody needs to pay it, so that's not regressive. So it's not | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
regressive and it is a Conservative policy that will help the most | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
disadvantaged? I have great difficulty in disagreeing with | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
Sarah, being the chair of the select committee. But on this occasion I | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
will. We've got to work with the drinks industry, as we have been, to | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
reduce the content of sugar all the time. What we've done over the years | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
is we've developed tastes for more and more sugar. We've got to wean | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
people off of that. The problem I've got with the tax is, if we're not | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
careful, it will be the poorest people having to pay it. Well they | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
don't have to buy it? But in many respects they will because they have | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
got used to buying it and their children will still be wanting it. | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
And I just think we would be better off changing their taste. How would | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
you do that? Literally by taking the sugar out of the drink. And that is | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
being done. But we need to do it much faster. The food and drink | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
industry have said that. They need more pressure, I think. Is that | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
where the pressure should be? They more pressure, I think. Is that | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
should be pushed to reduce the 11 spoonfuls of sugar in the drinks? | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
should be pushed to reduce the 11 Self-regulation has not helped on | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
its own. And Sarah is not really a conservative, I | :54:09. | :54:17. | |
its own. And Sarah is not really a since May. But on things like | :54:18. | :54:17. | |
assisted dying on the Juniors since May. But on things like | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
against it are people like the BMA, since May. But on things like | :54:23. | :54:24. | |
British Heart Foundation, all the British Heart Foundation, all the | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
people who know what they are talking about oppose this. Do you | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
mean oppose it? I mean oppose the idea to have sugar. You can have | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
free formulation at the same time, but it has taken ten years for us to | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
gradually down regulate the amount of salt in our food. I'd say we | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
would be failing a whole generation of children if we did not take the | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
decision to do both. Isn't it a failure of governments that have cut | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
public health campaigns and the money that goes into them? We had | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
extremely effective ones on drink-driving, an | :55:02. | :55:03. | |
extremely effective ones on campaigning. You are having to | :55:04. | :55:05. | |
substitute, if you like, the fact that your government won't pay for | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
those effective campaigns, by taxing the product itself? I'd say that's | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
certainly the amount we the product itself? I'd say that's | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
public health campaigns is dwarfed by the powerful messaging from | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
industry driving people in the other direction. However I would say it is | :55:22. | :55:23. | |
a mistake to think that education direction. However I would say it is | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
alone can do this. The interesting thing about education campaigns is | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
alone can do this. The interesting taken up more by people who are | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
already healthy. Paradoxically you end up widening the gap. When you | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
already healthy. Paradoxically you that are backing this idea of a | :55:41. | :55:42. | |
sugar tax, and you look that are backing this idea of a | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
of obesity, despite the fact there that are backing this idea of a | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
London published some research that obesity levels | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
London published some research that levelling off, but the cost of | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
obesity to the taxpayer and the national health service, and type | :55:57. | :55:58. | |
obesity to the taxpayer and the two diabetes is huge, surely | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
something like this has to be done? I don't disagree with you. But I | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
would say what we have to do, and Sarah makes the point, we are taking | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
far too long, we have got to put much, much more pressure on the food | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
and drink 's companies to reduce the amount of sugar in the drink. And | :56:14. | :56:15. | |
that, in the end, amount of sugar in the drink. And | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
much more effective than a sugar tax. The problem with a sugar tax is | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
much more effective than a sugar that it will affect the people who | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
can least afford to pay it, and in the end won't amount to a great deal | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
of money, and what we need to do is put the onus back on those food and | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
drink companies to deliver that drink without sugar. We will have to | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
finish it there, but thank you very much. | :56:42. | :56:42. | |
Now it's time to find out the answer to our quiz. | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
Which hirsute Member of Parliament is tipped to win the Parliamentary | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
beard of the year for a record sixth time? | :56:49. | :56:50. | |
Is it Paul Flynn, Stephen Crabb, John Spellar, or Jeremy Corbyn? | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
I think it should be Jeremy Corbyn because loads of Labour MPs seem to | :56:57. | :57:09. | |
have grown beards, even Dan Hodges. He is not a Labour MP of course. But | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
he now has a beard and I think that is the Corbyn effect. Do you agree? | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
I will go the Stephen Crabb. Well it is actually Jeremy Corbyn, as you | :57:22. | :57:22. | |
might imagine. Well, as you might imagine | :57:23. | :57:24. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is the man to beat having won the award no less than | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
five times in the past. And the man behind the competition, | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
Keith Flett of the Beard Liberation Tell us about this competition? It | :57:31. | :57:39. | |
has been running for almost 15 years. We run a separate one for | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
MPs, so they don't dominate the wider competition. It has been | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
running 15 years. It is a genuine online vote. So I'm afraid be have | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
to mobilise their supporters, you only vote once. We will see. Jeremy | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
Corbyn must be the man to beat? Yes, he has won it five times. Why? | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
What's so great about his beard? Back in the day it was relatively | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
rare for an MP to have a beard, and he spoke occasionally on beards in | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
the house and generally had a very high-profile beard, shall we say? It | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
speaks for itself. What about Stephen Crabb? He could be the first | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
beard in the Cabinet. Yes, relatively new last year. He has | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
been around a bit longer, his name is better known. I would think it | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
will go down to a whisker, shall we say, between them. It's going to be | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
razor-sharp right to the end, isn't it? The excitement is killing us | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
all, I'm sure. Thank you very much for coming in. | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
The 1pm news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
Andrew will be here at noon tomorrow with all the big | :58:54. | :58:57. |