30/11/2015 Daily Politics


30/11/2015

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Neil Parish and Labour MP Rupa Huq to discuss the government's proposals to extend airstrikes against Isis into Syria.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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It's set to be a big political week, with the government poised to hold

:00:42.:00:44.

a Commons vote on whether to extend air strikes into Syria.

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The position taken by Jeremy Corbyn and Labour could prove decisive.

:00:50.:00:52.

He's against military action and is about to meet with

:00:53.:00:55.

But with many MPs thought to back air strikes, can he find

:00:56.:01:01.

The Conservative Party chairman Lord Feldman -

:01:02.:01:08.

a close ally of the Prime Minister - comes under fire over

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the handling of claims of bullying, blackmail and sexual harassment in

:01:12.:01:14.

Is it the job of the government to tell people how

:01:15.:01:18.

As a committee of MPs backs a tax on sugary drinks, we'll be asking

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I'm normally against tax, but you see these fat kids, and one glass of

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non-Diet Coke is the equivalent to about eight spoonfuls of sugar, I

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probably got that wrong! And we'll be looking at those MPs

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hoping to make the cut and win by a whisker - yes, it's the annual vote

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to find parliament's best beard. All that in the next hour and with

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us for the whole of the programme today the Conservative MP Neil

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Parish and the Labour MP Rupa Huq. So first today let's talk

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about whether the UK will extend The RAF is already carrying out

:02:03.:02:07.

bombing raids against the so-called Islamic State

:02:08.:02:13.

in Iraq, and the government has been making the case that British jets

:02:14.:02:17.

should also be able to target Ministers have spent the weekend

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trying to persuade wavering MPs to back a possible government

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motion to approve the bombing. They've continued to insist they

:02:28.:02:33.

will hold a vote on air strikes only if it is certain

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it has the clear support of the Commons, which means winning

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the backing of many Labour MPs. Let's have a listen to

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the defence secretary Michael Fallon, who yesterday took to the

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Andrew Marr Show to make his case. We've already got permission to deal

:02:45.:02:48.

with Isil in Iraq at the edges, helping

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the Iraqi government push back Isil, but it makes no sense simply to be

:02:52.:02:54.

dealing with Isil in Iraq. When Isil is headquartered in

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North East Syria. Now, Isil is not just

:02:59.:03:01.

a threat to Iraq and Syria. Isil is a very direct

:03:02.:03:04.

threat to this country. Let me put it this way, last year

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there were 15 Isil-related attacks worldwide, and this year there

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have already been 150 attacks. We've seen this recently,

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not just in Ankara and Beirut, we've There is a very direct threat to

:03:20.:03:22.

this country from letting Isil Rupa Huq, has David Cameron and

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Michael Fallon convinced you have the case for air strikes against

:03:37.:03:41.

Isil in Syria? Need them have been on the phone to me, as has been

:03:42.:03:45.

reported, that Labour MPs have been phoned by conservatives the

:03:46.:03:49.

weekend, none of them have got me on speed dial. Would you like a call

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from them? This is a very difficult decision, and there is no right

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answer, what ever happens it looks like blood will be shed and lives

:04:00.:04:02.

will be lost, it is a difficult question. You will be asked to make

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a decision, what is your thought at the moment? We need the least bad

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outcome, I need to look at what I'm presented to vote on, but at the

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moment I'm not minded to vote for targeted air strikes on Syria. Can

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you be persuaded? It is unlikely, we have a messy civil war with at least

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six different sides, and tragic as the events of Paris were, and they

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are sickening and shocking, but a 3 figure number of people lost their

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lives going to a pop concert, and I'm not sure there is a direct

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correlation that we should start bombing now as a result of that.

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What about your colleagues in the Labour Party? Most of the people

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I've spoken to are very sceptical about air strikes right now. Most of

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your Parliamentary colleagues? There are 232 of those, I speak to most of

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the new intake and there is not a big appetite for it, I don't think.

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In your mind, Labour MPs, their views against air strikes are

:05:06.:05:10.

hardening? The figure of 70,000 Free Syrian Army troops who are waiting

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for us to join them, that does not seem credible for many people. Even

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Julian Lewis, very respected defence expert, the chair of the select

:05:21.:05:23.

committee, and a conservative, he said that, in the house on Thursday.

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They are too many unknowns. Where do you stand? I will back the Prime

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Minister and I believe we need to do with Isil in Iraq and also in Syria

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where their headquarters are, and we have had some good effect in

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rolling back some of their territory. The more territory they

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have, the more money they get, the more potential they have two cores

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grieve to ourselves and our allies -- two cores grieve.

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grieve to ourselves and our allies complex situation, but as Liam Fox

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said on Thursday, Isil dislike and fight against everything we

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represent in the way of free speech and freedom and they want to destroy

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us, so we have got to take action. If they can be heard a

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us, so we have got to take action. dentist, her only crime was to deal

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with female patients as dentist, her only crime was to deal

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deal with these people, and making it out to be complex, that does not

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give the excuse not to take action. Pretty much every military expert

:06:30.:06:36.

has said without grand -- ground troops, Isil cannot be defeated. Is

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there one ready to move in? There are troops there, it is a difficult

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situation, we probably have got special advisers and special troops

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there, who can help, and I think we will need to do more there. I don't

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think any of us at this stage want to put ground troops onto the

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ground, but we do accept that you will need those troops in order to

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get rid of Isil, but we will weaken them, we have got some very smart

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weapons which will actually help. Hilary Benn, the

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weapons which will actually help. Secretary is convinced that, as

:07:13.:07:16.

well. That the advances of Isil in Iraq have been restricted,

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well. That the advances of Isil in same could be said of Syria. There

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has been bombing for the past same could be said of Syria. There

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and arguably Isil have grown and got stronger, and so I'm not convinced.

:07:28.:07:29.

Where? In Syria? I'm stronger, and so I'm not convinced.

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a year now, stronger, and so I'm not convinced.

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current mission -- the original coalition for bombing, they don't

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have the same aims, we are getting into some tricky situations. The

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world is not perfect, these people will destroy the very fabric of what

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we believe in, we have got to take action against them, in this

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imperfect world. Those people who did the Paris thing, they were

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Belgian and French nationals, I don't see how bombing Syria... Their

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resources come from the Middle East, very much from the ordeal which Isil

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is selling. They are linked. -- very much from the oil. Where ever they

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are national song, they are still linked to Isil and we have got to

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deal with them -- where ever they are nationals from. Bombing is

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indiscriminate and there are always unintended consequences, I have had

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representations from a British Arab group which said World Heritage

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sites will be destroyed. Many of them have been destroyed already.

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Isil have destroyed them. Let's hold it there for a moment, you

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articulating the difficult arguments and decisions which MPs are going to

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have to make on this issue if a vote comes forward. The Labour position

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on whether to comes forward. The Labour position

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strikes into Syria will prove decisive this week.

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But it could also prove decisive for the future of Jeremy Corbyn's

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party, because a major split has developed between Mr Corbyn and many

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of his MPs over whether to support or oppose further military action.

:09:10.:09:14.

The Corbyn-supporting grassroots group Momentum spent the weekend

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emailing Labour Party members, urging them to lobby MPs to support

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Mr Corbyn has said he will not support British air strikes,

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but that's not the position of much of his Shadow Cabinet.

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Deputy leader Tom Watson and Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn

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are just two of the senior party figures in

:09:40.:09:41.

After criticism of Mr Corbyn's stance by some Labour MPs, Unite

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general-secretary Len McCluskey suggested public dissenters were

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guilty of trying to exploit disagreements over Syria to try and

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oust Mr Corbyn - something he said would "sicken all decent people".

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The debate now comes down to whether or not Labour MPs receive

:10:01.:10:04.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has made it clear he supports allowing

:10:05.:10:10.

all MPs to vote freely, according to their conscience,

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as a decision to go to war should be "above party politics".

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But this morning shadow international development secretary

:10:19.:10:21.

Diane Abbott said that the party membership, and the

:10:22.:10:24.

country, wants to see Labour oppose the air strikes, and that that would

:10:25.:10:27.

On Sunday, Jeremy Corbyn said that despite Labour tensions he wasn't

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going anywhere, and that as leader it was up to him to decide

:10:34.:10:36.

if the party should collectively oppose action in Syria.

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Well, in about an hour Jeremy Corbyn will meet his shadow cabinet,

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so it's set to be a turbulent day for the leadership and the party.

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Our deputy political editor James Landale can tell us more.

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Has significant is today for the Labour leader and be party? Hugely

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significant. Essentially the inconsistencies that have existed

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since Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party will come

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to a head, this is a crunch point. What we are seeing, a power struggle

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about where authority lies within the Labour family. It Jeremy Corbyn

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decides to whip his MPs and said they should follow him and oppose

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extending military action to Syria, is argument will be will be that he

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has a mandate from his party, he's newly elected, and this is the

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decision a leader makes, and he will give evidence through an e-mail, and

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we are assuming he will say there is a fair amount of support for his

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position, and he will present the Shadow Cabinet with a position,

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saying, this is my point but I'm going to be a leader, I will make

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that decision. And then the Shadow Cabinet will have to make a decision

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as to whether they will challenge that. What is coming to a head, the

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power struggle which has been lingering for some weeks between the

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Shadow Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn. They could choose not to resign, but

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that would leave Jeremy Corbyn asserting his power over the Shadow

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Cabinet in that instant, in order to keep the party together, the Shadow

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Cabinet together at the very least. No one is issued and there will be

:12:17.:12:21.

mass resignations, it is possible for members of the Shadow Cabinet,

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they could decide to vote against the party and then almost challenged

:12:27.:12:30.

Jeremy Corbyn to sack them -- no one is assuming they will be mass

:12:31.:12:34.

resignations. That is one potential option, and others, the members of

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the Shadow Cabinet could decide to resign beforehand, but if a decision

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is made today, do they resign immediately? Do they wait on to a

:12:45.:12:50.

motion is put before the House of Commons? There is no point in them

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resigning now, if David Cameron decides to not do a vote in 48

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hours, that's a possibility. James, thanks.

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To discuss this we're joined by Dan Hodges of the Daily Telegraph, and

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Rachel Shabi, who is a contributing writer for The Guardian.

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And of course our guests of the day Rupa and Neil are still here.

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Rupa, should the party be whipped to that view? There is a good argument

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of having a free vote, Jeremy Corbyn has often voted against the whip,

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and so it would be part of his open inclusive top-down leadership, and

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given the range of opinions with the Labour Party, that is a good idea.

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John McDonnell has said that he does not think Jeremy Corbyn is minded to

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that, would you think it is a mistake if he puts his win on the

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Shadow Cabinet? The only people who like the stories about a split

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party, that is the Conservatives, but the headlines in the Tory press

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would be more obvious, if it was a whipped vote. This is an issue of

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conscience, and there is a point when it goes above party politics. I

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was with Ken Clarke last week, the Conservative who held many great

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offices of state under many governments, he said he was against

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the Iraq war, and sometimes these are conscience decisions which are

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above party politics. Yes, we know some of them already, is it a matter

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of conscience, or is it, as Diane Abbott has said, oppositions of war

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and peace, you have got to have an agreed position and if you are Her

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Majesty 's loyal opposition? The Labour Party will be asked to fulfil

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its primary function as the official opposition, and to pass judgment on

:14:38.:14:41.

whether the country should go to war and clearly they are going to fail

:14:42.:14:45.

in their obligation to do that one way or another, we will not have a

:14:46.:14:48.

coherent position within the Labour Party and that is a shameful

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situation, but that is the reality of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

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It is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is minded to whip his party. He is

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going into that meeting intending to whip the shadow candidate. We heard

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Diane Abbott saying on his behalf that a free vote would be to hand

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the victory to David Cameron. I think Jeremy Corbyn has misjudged

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his Shadow Cabinet. I think he felt over the weekend that the bullying

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we have seen from groups like Momentum and the pressure he was

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putting on the Shadow Cabinet would bring them into line. I think when

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he goes into that meeting he will find out it has not been success.

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Has Jeremy Corbyn mishandled it so far? Dan Hodges calls it bullying

:15:36.:15:41.

tactics from the likes of Momentum, letter sent out to MPs saying that

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they must consult their constituents, and pressure will be

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brought to bear if they did not come back with a view against air

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strikes. I don't know if it is bullying if you are being asked to

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consider carefully a significant decision which the Conservatives

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have failed to make a case in favour of. And I don't want to do a -- I

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don't want to diminish this, but this is not about the Labour Party,

:16:10.:16:14.

it is about Syrians and Iraqis and really quite damaging consequences,

:16:15.:16:18.

potentially, for the rest of Europe. And I think what Jeremy Corbyn is

:16:19.:16:21.

trying to do is change the flavour of the politics that we are having,

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and that is one of the reasons he was voted for so overwhelmingly, and

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that is why he has this mandate from the Labour Party faithful who oppose

:16:32.:16:35.

air strikes because, again, there has not really been a convincing

:16:36.:16:39.

case in favour of those strikes. It's clear that we should do

:16:40.:16:42.

something about Islamic State but it's not necessarily clear that the

:16:43.:16:47.

something should be bombing. There are plenty of other alternative is

:16:48.:16:51.

not being discussed. Does he not better reflect Labour Party members

:16:52.:16:54.

and many constituents in Labour constituencies around the country

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with blue it is not the job to reflect Labour Party members, it

:17:00.:17:06.

is. -- it is not the job to reflect Labour Party members, it is to

:17:07.:17:11.

reflect the country. There is a very large plurality. You can't possibly

:17:12.:17:17.

say that. Let down finish and I will come back to both of you. In support

:17:18.:17:24.

of military action. The important thing has to be said, the opponents

:17:25.:17:29.

of war are trying to construct this is a debate about people of

:17:30.:17:32.

principle who oppose war against these Blairite warmongers, that is

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not the case. There are people on both sides who have very strongly

:17:36.:17:41.

held convictions. And as we've seen over the weekend and as we've seen

:17:42.:17:45.

in terms of the nature of the debate as has come from the Jeremy Corbyn

:17:46.:17:50.

camp, it is actually the Corbin supporters making it into a

:17:51.:17:54.

political issue, and the Corbynites turning this into a loyalty test to

:17:55.:18:01.

the leader of the Labour Party and that is absolutely shameful. Isn't

:18:02.:18:05.

that true? Len McCluskey made his statement, Diane Abbott made her

:18:06.:18:10.

statement this morning. There were veiled threats to those in the

:18:11.:18:12.

Shadow Cabinet and other MPs who do not follow what the line will be

:18:13.:18:18.

from Jeremy Corbyn when he knows that they are at odds with his own

:18:19.:18:23.

Shadow Foreign Secretary, his own deputy leader, isn't the fate of the

:18:24.:18:29.

Labour Party important in this, too? Here we are talking about Jeremy

:18:30.:18:32.

Corbyn politicising the decision by politicising what he is doing. If

:18:33.:18:36.

you heard him talk on Andrew Marr on Sunday he was presenting the case

:18:37.:18:41.

against air strikes. I'm not saying that the people who support air

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strikes are unprincipled, and just saying they have failed to make a

:18:45.:18:48.

convincing case. We need to have that conversation and that's what

:18:49.:18:51.

he's trying to do, and that's why he's asked for MPs to go back to

:18:52.:18:55.

their constituents and have that conversation. With respect, he is

:18:56.:18:59.

entitled to do that, but a large number of the people in the Labour

:19:00.:19:03.

Party disagree with him from a point of principle. They think there will

:19:04.:19:07.

be a threat to this country if we do not intervene. The difference

:19:08.:19:10.

between the camps is that Jeremy Corbyn is allowed to put forward his

:19:11.:19:14.

view, the opponents of Jeremy Corbyn are being told that if they disagree

:19:15.:19:17.

with Jeremy Corbyn they will face deselection. Now that is bullying.

:19:18.:19:24.

with Jeremy Corbyn they will face Well, Len McCluskey

:19:25.:19:27.

with Jeremy Corbyn they will face said that, he said they will be

:19:28.:19:30.

playing with fire. The director of Momentum has published, who also

:19:31.:19:36.

edits the website, published an article

:19:37.:19:40.

edits the website, published an deselection. You are not seriously

:19:41.:19:44.

sitting there... They have no constitutional process. You are the

:19:45.:19:49.

one turning this into a schoolyard debate, we are trying to have debate

:19:50.:19:56.

about whether to go into Syria or not. Let him speak. Are you

:19:57.:20:01.

seriously saying that there are not letters going round, there is not

:20:02.:20:03.

pressure being brought to bear on your colleagues to be deselected if

:20:04.:20:06.

they don't do what Jeremy Corbyn your colleagues to be deselected if

:20:07.:20:10.

does on this issue? I've not heard of a real MP who has had that.

:20:11.:20:14.

You've not heard it? of a real MP who has had that.

:20:15.:20:17.

one myself, I voted for Yvette Cooper for leader. What about

:20:18.:20:23.

threats of deselection? Some of this is just media hot air and in reality

:20:24.:20:28.

this is bigger than Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, this is about going to

:20:29.:20:32.

war. Has he or his supporters made it an of loyalty? Has it really come

:20:33.:20:42.

out of the ether in that sense, or is it as a result of briefings on

:20:43.:20:48.

both sides? In the end, if there is not a free vote, which you are

:20:49.:20:52.

calling for, which John McDonnell is calling for, would you expect Shadow

:20:53.:20:55.

Cabinet members to stick to their guns and defy what would be the will

:20:56.:21:00.

of the leadership? The thing is, it should be of no surprise that Jeremy

:21:01.:21:04.

Corbyn is anti-war, it has been country be consistent for 35 years.

:21:05.:21:11.

You nominated him, didn't you? So did 35 other people. Did you regret

:21:12.:21:15.

it? No, I did not want a contest of three people saying the same thing,

:21:16.:21:19.

I wanted all wings of the party reflected. Do you think that Shadow

:21:20.:21:25.

Cabinet members who, as a matter of conscience, would like to vote for

:21:26.:21:29.

air strikes, should resign if there is a whipped vote by Jeremy Corbyn?

:21:30.:21:33.

It's not for me to tell them whether they should resign. Would you expect

:21:34.:21:37.

them to on a matter of conscience? I expect them to do what their

:21:38.:21:41.

conscience tells them they should do. But we are trying to shift the

:21:42.:21:46.

conversation away from an orthodoxy that for decades has had a military

:21:47.:21:50.

interventionist take on the fight against terror. We are trying to

:21:51.:21:54.

change that. One of the reasons Corbyn was elected was to change

:21:55.:21:57.

that, so let's have that conversation. And he has support for

:21:58.:22:02.

it. Shouldn't it be dissenting MPs come if you like, Dan Hodges, who

:22:03.:22:06.

have been accused of trying to plot and out Jeremy Corbyn, who should

:22:07.:22:10.

fall into the line that Rachel Xavi says is prevalent? To answer your

:22:11.:22:16.

question, if there is a whip, it is quite clear that members of the

:22:17.:22:19.

Shadow Cabinet that wish to vote against it should resign, they have

:22:20.:22:23.

a principle of collective responsibility. Jeremy Corbyn is

:22:24.:22:25.

doing everything he can to destroy that principle. Perhaps they are.

:22:26.:22:33.

Again, I'm very sorry, I know this is difficult for you to understand.

:22:34.:22:37.

I know it is difficult for you to understand! It may come as a shock

:22:38.:22:43.

to you that there are people of conviction and principle that

:22:44.:22:46.

disagree with you. That's fine. I know that is a shock. There are

:22:47.:22:53.

people out there who genuinely believe if we do not act against the

:22:54.:22:57.

Isis threat we will see 200 people dead in London, and you may disagree

:22:58.:23:04.

. They are convinced of their view without the same kinds of threats

:23:05.:23:08.

and intimidation. You keep saying it is Corbyn that has created the

:23:09.:23:12.

politics of this, that is my issue with you. Well who has, Father

:23:13.:23:17.

Christmas? It is not about whether people should have a principled

:23:18.:23:21.

opposition to him, that is fine, but let's have the debate without

:23:22.:23:24.

getting distracted into this schoolyard brawl that you are trying

:23:25.:23:29.

to create. You are letting your hate for Corbyn blind your judgment. With

:23:30.:23:37.

respect, it is the hatred of the Corbynites for those who have any

:23:38.:23:42.

different view to them, which is why we saw the comments from Len

:23:43.:23:45.

McCluskey, why we have had the threats from Momentum and continuing

:23:46.:23:48.

threat of deselection. Both of you will have to leave it there but we

:23:49.:23:51.

will of course keep you updated in what happens on BBC News.

:23:52.:23:56.

The question for today is all about beards.

:23:57.:24:00.

Nice change of tone, there. Yes, you came appropriately attired in that

:24:01.:24:06.

sense, Dan. Which hirsute Member of Parliament

:24:07.:24:07.

is tipped to win the Parliamentary beard of the year

:24:08.:24:09.

for a record sixth time? Is it Paul Flynn, Stephen Crabb,

:24:10.:24:12.

John Spellar or Jeremy Corbyn. At the end of the show Neil and Rupa

:24:13.:24:17.

will give us the correct answer. One of the lesser-noticed proposals

:24:18.:24:23.

in George Osborne's spending review last week was the decision to cut

:24:24.:24:27.

what's known as short money. It was introduced

:24:28.:24:34.

by the then-Leader of the House It was designed to help opposition

:24:35.:24:36.

parties "more effectively fulfil The bill for the taxpayer

:24:37.:24:41.

this year is ?9.3 million. The amount each party gets depends

:24:42.:24:55.

on how many MPs they have and how many votes they got

:24:56.:24:58.

at the last election. So most of the money this year,

:24:59.:25:01.

nearly ?5.8 million, And the SNP also get

:25:02.:25:03.

a sizeable chunk - they've received So cutting taxpayer funding

:25:04.:25:07.

for politicians is bound to prove popular with many,

:25:08.:25:10.

but it hasn't gone down well with others including the

:25:11.:25:12.

Labour Party - and shadow Commons Hello, how are you? I'm fine, and

:25:13.:25:31.

you? We will come onto that. Every part of the political sector --

:25:32.:25:36.

public sector is making a contribution to cuts. The short

:25:37.:25:41.

money is there so that all parties can do a proper job of criticising

:25:42.:25:45.

the government. The government has the whole of the civil service, and

:25:46.:25:50.

a budget to be able to go and visit whatever institution, so for

:25:51.:25:52.

instance the prisons minister can visit prisons, surely so should

:25:53.:25:58.

opposition portfolio holders like the shadow ministers be allowed to

:25:59.:26:05.

visit prisons as well. But shouldn't there be a contribution from

:26:06.:26:07.

opposition parties or political parties in general to tackling the

:26:08.:26:14.

deficit? I would be right behind that if it weren't for the fact that

:26:15.:26:15.

what the government has done in this same period is increase the number

:26:16.:26:19.

of special advisers party political appointees have gone up from 79 to

:26:20.:26:24.

103. An extra cost of ?2.5 million every year all going to party

:26:25.:26:29.

members. And George Osborne has got ten special advisers. And they did

:26:30.:26:32.

say they would reduce that bill, they said that in 2010 and they

:26:33.:26:37.

didn't. But on principle you would not be against a reduction in the

:26:38.:26:41.

amount of short money? I'm happy to see, if we are considering the whole

:26:42.:26:45.

cost of politics, but on top of that the government has added ?2.9

:26:46.:26:49.

million per year by appointing more members to the House of Lords, 240

:26:50.:27:04.

more members, the fastest any Prime Minister has ever appointed

:27:05.:27:06.

ministers, all again for party political covers, and I think that

:27:07.:27:09.

is a problem. In the end we have a constitutional settlement in this

:27:10.:27:11.

country which is that Her Majesty 's loyal opposition play a vital part

:27:12.:27:14.

in making sure the government does a good job. It is wrong for the

:27:15.:27:16.

government single-handedly and unilaterally to cut that money. If

:27:17.:27:19.

you were to win in 2020 of course you could say it would be the Tories

:27:20.:27:21.

that would have less short money. That's very unfair because when we

:27:22.:27:24.

were in government we introduced it in the first place, and in 1997 when

:27:25.:27:28.

the Tory party thought it was down on its knees and never going to

:27:29.:27:32.

recuperate, we travelled short money. They claimed ?45.7 million.

:27:33.:27:37.

We have been honourable in this and the government is being utterly

:27:38.:27:42.

despicable and dishonourable. So, despicable and dishonourable? I

:27:43.:27:47.

would not go as far as to say that. We have cut back the civil service

:27:48.:27:53.

by about ?2.5 billion. What about special advisers? They have not been

:27:54.:27:56.

cut as much as they should have been, they have gone up, I access

:27:57.:28:00.

the figures. I believe that overall we have taken the right decisions to

:28:01.:28:04.

reduce the cost of government. I think people out there in expect

:28:05.:28:07.

opposition parties to raise money, to fund themselves to a degree we

:28:08.:28:14.

had to do that. You took ?45.7 million. That does not fund the

:28:15.:28:18.

political party. Naturally the Labour Party takes a great deal of

:28:19.:28:21.

money from trade unions and we get money from other sources as well.

:28:22.:28:26.

But I don't think people necessarily expect taxpayer money to fund

:28:27.:28:33.

politics. That may be, but why is it that the number of special

:28:34.:28:39.

advisers, the number of paid appointments by the government has

:28:40.:28:41.

gone up, if this government is so committed to trying to reduce the

:28:42.:28:48.

amount of money that is spent by taxpayers on this particular area?

:28:49.:28:51.

Why is it that we have seen large numbers of people brought into the

:28:52.:28:54.

House of Lords? It is growing in some areas. Let me deal with the

:28:55.:29:00.

situation vis-a-vis the House of Lords. When we came into government,

:29:01.:29:05.

after ten or 12 years of Blair government, we actually had 28% of

:29:06.:29:10.

the members of the House of Lords. Therefore there is a really good

:29:11.:29:16.

reason. That's a good way of deflecting. You have appointed...

:29:17.:29:20.

I'm not going to take you on the nose. You have appointed people into

:29:21.:29:25.

the House of Lords, the Prime Minister has appointed ten times as

:29:26.:29:29.

many barren since he became Prime Minister than there Runnymede, and

:29:30.:29:32.

yet he goes on about democracy. He wants to cut the number of elected

:29:33.:29:39.

MPs but increased the number of unelected figures. Dent or shout

:29:40.:29:46.

because nobody can hear you. Chris, go ahead. Another interesting

:29:47.:29:49.

thing, the government has decided, there is also cram more money that

:29:50.:29:54.

goes to opposition parties, it has decided to not cut that because they

:29:55.:29:58.

do not have a majority in the House of Lords, so they will let that go

:29:59.:30:02.

on. It is utterly reprehensible, the way the government is behaving. It

:30:03.:30:06.

is unconstitutional, and quite a lot of Tory MPs, and to be honest I

:30:07.:30:10.

think Neil agrees, he is smiling, he is going to go back and tell them.

:30:11.:30:16.

Your lips are sealed, is the expression. But your top lip is

:30:17.:30:19.

sweating, I think that means you agree with me.

:30:20.:30:23.

Is opposition for democracy? Yes, it

:30:24.:30:33.

is. We have just enough time, to discuss... It is one of those hidden

:30:34.:30:39.

measures, it is not get headlines the way that splits do. The Shadow

:30:40.:30:43.

Cabinet meeting is at o'clock, what are you going to be saying? It

:30:44.:30:47.

depends on what Jeremy Corbyn says, are you going to be saying? It

:30:48.:30:51.

but it will be on my conscience, is there was another attack by Isil and

:30:52.:30:56.

British targets in this country -- on British targets in this country,

:30:57.:30:58.

we will not have on British targets in this country,

:30:59.:31:06.

in Syria, when the French president is in favour and the United Nations

:31:07.:31:10.

is in favour, when we are already bombing Isil in Iraq. It should be a

:31:11.:31:15.

free vote? I would prefer it to be a free vote. If it isn't, and Jeremy

:31:16.:31:20.

Corbyn says, I am the leader and I will decide, I'm whipping by Shadow

:31:21.:31:24.

Cabinet to vote against, what will you do? I'm not sure whose decision

:31:25.:31:29.

it is to make, but I've had this conversation with you many times

:31:30.:31:32.

before on this programme, hypothetical questions begin with

:31:33.:31:41.

the word is. Diane Abbott, we speak to her, about the representative

:31:42.:31:47.

that she seems to be of Jeremy Corbyn, she says it should be a

:31:48.:31:51.

whipped vote, and a whipped vote against air strikes, and if that is

:31:52.:31:53.

the case, are you going to vote against question not every time you

:31:54.:32:07.

put the word if Janette -- every time you put the word if in, it is

:32:08.:32:13.

hypothetical question. If I vote against military action against

:32:14.:32:18.

Isil... Someone said May, could we not appoint a negotiator to

:32:19.:32:25.

negotiate between Isil and Rouble? That is dangerously naive. -- Isil

:32:26.:32:34.

and us? I would prefer a free vote. I have not come on this programme to

:32:35.:32:38.

talk about that, I came to talk about something else, and I would

:32:39.:32:41.

prefer to have that conversation privately in the Shadow Cabinet. But

:32:42.:32:45.

you have asked the question and I have tried to answer this as

:32:46.:32:49.

straightforward as I can. It feels like Civil War. Maybe it does, but

:32:50.:32:57.

I'm very focused on, if a constituent of mine worked on

:32:58.:33:04.

holidays somewhere, and there was a attack, would I have failed in my

:33:05.:33:08.

duty by refusing to countenance military strikes? I know all of the

:33:09.:33:14.

dangers, not always convinced by David Cameron and all the rest of

:33:15.:33:17.

it, but in the end, would I have failed that person? Right,, Chris

:33:18.:33:24.

Bryant, thanks. David Cameron has joined other world

:33:25.:33:30.

leaders in Paris today to try and negotiate a new global deal

:33:31.:33:34.

on climate change. Jeremy Corbyn will face his MPs

:33:35.:33:38.

tonight in a meeting Junior doctors will walk out

:33:39.:33:41.

on strike tomorrow morning unless the Government and the BMA can reach

:33:42.:33:52.

a last-minute deal in talks On Wednesday it's PMQs of course -

:33:53.:33:56.

with a vote on airstrikes in Syria expected this week we can expect

:33:57.:34:04.

a fiery encounter. It could be another chance for

:34:05.:34:10.

Jeremy Corbyn to quiz the Prime Minister over air strikes in Syria.

:34:11.:34:13.

Thursday sees the first major electoral test for Labour since May

:34:14.:34:16.

It's a safe Labour seat but Ukip are expected to make a strong showing.

:34:17.:34:20.

We're joined now from a windy College Green by

:34:21.:34:22.

Stephen Bush from the New Statesman, and by Harry Cole from the Sun.

:34:23.:34:27.

Stephen, this should be a safe Labour seat in Oldham West, 14,000

:34:28.:34:33.

majority was left by MIchael Meacher, what is going on there? The

:34:34.:34:39.

picture from Central office, they say it looks good and the numbers

:34:40.:34:42.

are holding up and they think they will win it by 2000 votes, but

:34:43.:34:47.

everyone who has been down to Oldham, comes back with a face like

:34:48.:34:53.

thunder, and they say that Jeremy Corbyn's remarks and shoot to kill

:34:54.:34:56.

not going down very well with the white working class boat, but if

:34:57.:35:01.

they can get out enough of the Asian population, they will probably be

:35:02.:35:07.

able to hold the seat. Harry Cole, John McDonnell says Ukip is an evil

:35:08.:35:11.

force within our society, admitting that the margins of the by-election

:35:12.:35:14.

will be very narrow, how will that go down? That says much more about

:35:15.:35:23.

John McDonnell compared with Ukip. The Ukip voters were voting not that

:35:24.:35:29.

long ago for Labour, and so that as an attack on former Labour voters,

:35:30.:35:34.

if anything. This is one of those pressure points, everyone sought

:35:35.:35:37.

next May's local elections and the London mayor elections as the first

:35:38.:35:42.

chance to see Jeremy Corbyn's impact, but we are seeing this now.

:35:43.:35:46.

It is shaping up to be the most remarkable week for a very long time

:35:47.:35:50.

in British politics. We have the slow drumbeat to war, on one side,

:35:51.:35:55.

and the divisions this is causing in Labour, and you also have the Tory

:35:56.:36:00.

party imploding themselves, for the horrendous cover-up scandal.

:36:01.:36:06.

Regarding the story which has engulfed the Tory party, these are

:36:07.:36:09.

claims of bullying and harassment which were not dealt with properly

:36:10.:36:12.

allegedly, a Conservative Central office. -- at. There are now calls

:36:13.:36:22.

for an independent inquiry, is that going to happen? It will have to, it

:36:23.:36:26.

seems inevitable by the end of the week, that the previous chairman of

:36:27.:36:30.

the Conservative Party and the incumbent will have to have stood

:36:31.:36:37.

down, you cannot have a situation where the chair is marking its own

:36:38.:36:41.

homework, as it were, and so there will need to be and above inquiry.

:36:42.:36:47.

Do you agree with that, Harry Cole? Grant Shapps has already resigned.

:36:48.:36:52.

There was the hope and feeling within number ten that if Grant

:36:53.:36:54.

Shapps was to resign that might take the pressure out of the scandal, but

:36:55.:36:58.

if anything it has done the opposite. It has heaped huge

:36:59.:37:03.

pressure on Lord Feldman, why, when Grant Shapps says it was a joint

:37:04.:37:12.

decision to hire Mark Clarke, Lord Feldman's name was on the checks,

:37:13.:37:15.

and do not forget he was the party chairman who has overseen the last

:37:16.:37:19.

few months, including the tragic suicide of a young activist. The

:37:20.:37:24.

questions must be piling up for Mr Feldman. Thanks to both of you.

:37:25.:37:29.

Let's pick up on a story we've just been discussing, that's

:37:30.:37:32.

the pressure on the Conservative chairman Andrew Feldman over

:37:33.:37:34.

the handling of complaints against a Tory activist called Mark Clarke.

:37:35.:37:37.

We've been joined by the executive editor of the Conservative Home

:37:38.:37:39.

Do you think Lord Feldman should resign? Yes, his position has become

:37:40.:37:52.

untenable for a number of reasons, not least because Grant Shapps

:37:53.:37:57.

resigned, he recommended this decision, that the approach to Mark

:37:58.:38:07.

Clarke was the way to go. Grant Shapps could suggest things, but

:38:08.:38:10.

Lord Feldman had to sign them off, and approve them, and so I think his

:38:11.:38:14.

position has become untenable. He's very close to the Prime Minister and

:38:15.:38:19.

has been for time, is this costly to the Prime Minister? It is personally

:38:20.:38:23.

costly, Lord Feldman is a long serving and I and he has done many

:38:24.:38:29.

good things as the party chairman. -- long serving ally. He made many

:38:30.:38:34.

of the decisions, positive decisions come which did work in terms of the

:38:35.:38:38.

party's ground war which helped to win the general election. You don't

:38:39.:38:48.

think the Prime -- you don't think that he can survive, then, do you

:38:49.:38:53.

think this needs to be fully independent, the inquiry? Yes,

:38:54.:38:59.

absolutely, we reported on our website, Conservative Home, there he

:39:00.:39:05.

is a call for an independent inquiry, and it is not good enough,

:39:06.:39:10.

that employees of the Conservative Party should go to a statement,

:39:11.:39:16.

effectively enquiring of their own boss, and then they passed that on

:39:17.:39:19.

to be checked by Clifford chance, that is not good enough, we need an

:39:20.:39:24.

independent inquiry, to open the doors come to investigate this

:39:25.:39:27.

properly, and then the findings have to be published. Regarding the

:39:28.:39:32.

findings and what will be investigated, you match -- mentioned

:39:33.:39:42.

the baroness, she has agreed to look into a new campaign, regarding Mark

:39:43.:39:50.

Clarke, who is at the sense of these allegations, she is accused of

:39:51.:39:54.

leaking the names to Mark Clarke, that would be part of the

:39:55.:39:59.

investigation, but what else? Who knew what about Mark Clarke and

:40:00.:40:02.

when, before he was brought back into the fold and we need to know

:40:03.:40:07.

after he was brought back into the fold, what complaints were formally

:40:08.:40:12.

made and who received them. Baroness Warsi said she made a complaint.

:40:13.:40:18.

Indeed. Other complaints have been made, as alleged victims. We need to

:40:19.:40:23.

know exactly what happened to those complaints, we also need to know

:40:24.:40:26.

things like, what are the safeguarding procedures for young

:40:27.:40:30.

people involved in the Conservative Party's activities? It is important,

:40:31.:40:35.

if you care about Conservative values and you are interested in the

:40:36.:40:38.

same things as the party, you should be able to go out and campaign for

:40:39.:40:42.

those things, and that should be encouraged, but people need to be

:40:43.:40:45.

safe while they do it. Mark Clarke has denied the allegations made

:40:46.:40:50.

against him, what is your view about Andrew Feldman? I don't usually go

:40:51.:40:55.

at this stage, but there has to be a proper inquiry and whether that

:40:56.:41:02.

needs to be independent... For the family, who had a great loss, if I

:41:03.:41:06.

had lost a son, I would expect nothing more, and I think we have

:41:07.:41:11.

got to make sure that we handle this properly and this is not just about

:41:12.:41:14.

justice, it is about justice being seen to be done. It is not

:41:15.:41:21.

altogether about whose head should roll, it is about making sure we

:41:22.:41:25.

investigate thoroughly what happened to stop it ever happening again.

:41:26.:41:30.

There needs to be accountability? Yes, and Grant Shapps has taken that

:41:31.:41:33.

in many ways. That was the right thing to do? I think it was. It is

:41:34.:41:39.

for the Prime Minister and Lord Feldman to decide on his particular

:41:40.:41:45.

fate, but I also think it is for the Conservative Party to make sure that

:41:46.:41:49.

we do thoroughly investigate but also that it is open and people

:41:50.:41:55.

actually believe us and the family believe us and we stamp out the

:41:56.:42:00.

problem. There is no point whatsoever, it would be Das Dudley

:42:01.:42:03.

to cover it up in any shape or form, so I would suggest that it will be

:42:04.:42:09.

much more open than it is at the moment, I suspect. Thanks.

:42:10.:42:13.

151 heads of state and other world leaders have arrived

:42:14.:42:16.

in Pairs this morning ahead of a global climate change summit, which

:42:17.:42:19.

organisers say makes it the largest meeting of its kind in history.

:42:20.:42:23.

Most of the discussions are expected to centre on an agreement to limit

:42:24.:42:26.

global warming to 2C, but the last such meeting ended in failure.

:42:27.:42:30.

Let's listen to UN Secretary General Ban-Ki Moon.

:42:31.:42:37.

The national climate plans, summited by more than 180 countries

:42:38.:42:44.

as of today, cover close to 100% of global emissions.

:42:45.:42:47.

But we need to go much faster, much further, if we are to limit the

:42:48.:42:58.

We need a universal, meaningful and robust agreement, here in Paris.

:42:59.:43:15.

We need a universal, meaningful and is likely, but will this be enough?

:43:16.:43:21.

We need a universal, meaningful and Will it be enough to tackle climate

:43:22.:43:26.

change and global warming? We have had the summers before, Copenhagen,

:43:27.:43:27.

that was had the summers before, Copenhagen,

:43:28.:43:32.

remember, there has got had the summers before, Copenhagen,

:43:33.:43:34.

political will, and a change of behaviour -- have had these summits

:43:35.:43:41.

before. Our reliance on fossil fuels and cars and all those things, we

:43:42.:43:47.

need to look at that. Under the Tory subsidies, renewals have been

:43:48.:43:50.

slashed and onshore wind farms have been opposed, what ever happened to

:43:51.:43:57.

the greenest government ever? If you come to Devon, I will show you,

:43:58.:44:00.

there are many solar panels, we are producing electricity, you cannot go

:44:01.:44:06.

on covering more manned with solar panels, just in order to have a

:44:07.:44:10.

feeding tariff to do that -- covering more land. We now need to

:44:11.:44:15.

make sure, as Britain and those major economies, help the developing

:44:16.:44:24.

world, to reduce their carbon. But what about the developed world? We

:44:25.:44:27.

do, but with the developed world what about the developed world? We

:44:28.:44:30.

the very developing world like China, we have got to make sure that

:44:31.:44:36.

it is not just Europe, and America, it is also China, the Far East,

:44:37.:44:39.

because in the end, we have got to play our part, but it is global

:44:40.:44:45.

warming, and if we are going to do any real good introducing global

:44:46.:44:50.

temperatures we have got to tackle this right across, and I don't think

:44:51.:44:54.

our government's record on delivering renewables is bad at all

:44:55.:45:01.

can we have tidal power in the River Severn, and also in the channel, and

:45:02.:45:06.

we are building up a nuclear power station at Hinkley point which will

:45:07.:45:10.

reduce our needs for electricity. Therefore, we are doing our bit.

:45:11.:45:16.

Why should the UK and other developed countries being the only

:45:17.:45:22.

ones playing their part in trying to reduce global warning if we don't

:45:23.:45:25.

have some of the big developing nations on board who are some of the

:45:26.:45:30.

biggest polluters as well, it will be worthless. It does take political

:45:31.:45:34.

will from all sides. This government has had an extra good. Pre-election

:45:35.:45:40.

it was going to be the greenest government ever, and wasn't Cameron

:45:41.:45:45.

reported as saying "cut the green stuff" after he was elected. This

:45:46.:45:50.

government has had Owen Paterson, who was a climate change denier. How

:45:51.:45:56.

is that going to stop a global agreement being reached, doesn't it

:45:57.:46:00.

have to be global? It isn't just about what the UK does, otherwise we

:46:01.:46:04.

are doing it when others aren't, you are not achieving your goal. I do

:46:05.:46:09.

agree, and it is a global problem, and in the Times of globalisation it

:46:10.:46:13.

requires a global solution. Prime Minister Modi has said that it

:46:14.:46:19.

shouldn't all fall to third world countries either. Do you think the

:46:20.:46:23.

Conservative Party now is more sceptical about needing to tackle

:46:24.:46:29.

this in the way they perhaps thought? There are some sceptics

:46:30.:46:33.

within the party, and I think we've got to be careful that we don't

:46:34.:46:38.

blame every hurricane, everything on climate change, because there are

:46:39.:46:46.

patterns as well. But if you look at actually our record in government on

:46:47.:46:48.

delivering on green energy it is actually good. But there hasn't been

:46:49.:46:54.

consistency, has there? I also really buy into what the Prime

:46:55.:46:57.

Minister wants to do and that is help the developing world help

:46:58.:47:01.

themselves on climate change. Many of us have visited China. You do not

:47:02.:47:06.

see the sun in Beijing. That is the level of pollution. We have got to

:47:07.:47:13.

get that dealt with. Is an agreement at two Celsius enough when there are

:47:14.:47:15.

developing countries who say, at that level, if that is the deal,

:47:16.:47:20.

that will still wreak havoc on large parts of the developing world, the

:47:21.:47:24.

impact will hit the poorest, do you accept that? My view is that if we

:47:25.:47:29.

can get 2% agreed across the globe, then it will do a great deal of good

:47:30.:47:35.

toward stopping global warming. We are not going to stamp it out

:47:36.:47:37.

completely, we've got to slow it down. And I think we've got to be

:47:38.:47:42.

very practical. You can talk about figures as much as you like. Until

:47:43.:47:45.

we get people like the Chinese government reducing their cars, the

:47:46.:47:50.

type of cars they've got, producing more electric cars, bringing in all

:47:51.:47:52.

the things that we also need to do here, I accept that, but unless we

:47:53.:47:56.

do that across the globe and influence it, we will not really

:47:57.:48:01.

dramatically reduce the temperature. Before we move on there is just some

:48:02.:48:07.

breaking news, the Labour Party has put out, 75% of Labour Party members

:48:08.:48:13.

oppose air strikes in Syria. It doesn't surprise me.

:48:14.:48:17.

Now is it the government's business whether you want to eat

:48:18.:48:19.

Well a Commons committee thinks it should be, and today they've backed

:48:20.:48:23.

a whole series of measures they say will help tackle obesity including

:48:24.:48:26.

So does this represent a sensible measure to improve the health of

:48:27.:48:30.

our children, or is it an unwelcome intrusion from the nanny state?

:48:31.:48:33.

We gave Ellie a couple of cans of pop

:48:34.:48:35.

I could really do with a sugar boost.

:48:36.:48:40.

Don't some MPs want to put a 20% tax on sugary drinks?

:48:41.:48:45.

# "Sweets For My Sweet" - The Searchers

:48:46.:48:54.

You only have to look left right and centre to see that people are

:48:55.:48:57.

struggling from being overweight and the consequences are dire

:48:58.:49:00.

People should know what is good for themselves, and the government

:49:01.:49:11.

You have an opinion on most things, don't you?

:49:12.:49:22.

Sugary drinks, should there be a tax?

:49:23.:49:28.

I'm normally against tax, but you see these fat kids now and,

:49:29.:49:33.

what is it, one glass of non-Diet Coke is the equivalent

:49:34.:49:35.

You have a fabulous looking very green drink.

:49:36.:49:52.

Do you think there should be a tax on sugary drinks?

:49:53.:49:55.

Maybe less advertising, that is probably more powerful.

:49:56.:49:58.

I look at some fat people and think, God,

:49:59.:50:08.

This is a problem of behaviour, not of price, this is a socialist

:50:09.:50:31.

And do you drink a lot of sugary drinks?

:50:32.:50:36.

Do you know there is nothing sweeter than a mood box on a Monday morning?

:50:37.:50:46.

We've got people's opinions all fizzed up

:50:47.:50:49.

and it would seem the majority think a sugar tax is a good idea.

:50:50.:50:54.

So that was the view of commuters in London this morning.

:50:55.:50:57.

Well, the chair of the Commons health committee

:50:58.:50:59.

This is the nanny state gone mad, for a Conservative politician? It is

:51:00.:51:11.

not the nanny state gone mad. If you let at the scale of the problem, a

:51:12.:51:15.

quarter of the most disadvantaged children are leaving primary school

:51:16.:51:19.

not just overweight but obese. It opens up a huge gap in health

:51:20.:51:22.

inequality and it is something we can do something about with a range

:51:23.:51:26.

of sensible measures. Not one single thing to solve this, we need a range

:51:27.:51:30.

of policies to tackle it from a range of angles. But it is very

:51:31.:51:34.

unlike the Conservatives to tax sugar, as you said, only one part of

:51:35.:51:39.

a strategy that would tackle obesity, but in itself it won't

:51:40.:51:43.

actually do what you wanted to do. We know in Mexico for example it

:51:44.:51:47.

reduced consumption by 6% and in the heaviest consumers I 9%. So it does

:51:48.:51:53.

make a difference. Nobody needs to pay this tax, but it is about

:51:54.:51:57.

nudging people to make more sensible choices. It is not a tax on more

:51:58.:52:01.

sugar, not in biscuits, crisps, or the sugar you buy on the shelf, it

:52:02.:52:05.

is just fizzy drinks. And that matters because a of children who

:52:06.:52:09.

are teenagers, there should be in take is coming just from fizzy

:52:10.:52:13.

drinks. If you have a small price differential, what it does, it

:52:14.:52:16.

nudges people to buy the diet product. It takes at a stroke a

:52:17.:52:22.

significant chunk of these wasted calories out of people's diet. Alan

:52:23.:52:26.

Duncan called it a socialist solution. I disagree with him. Go

:52:27.:52:33.

and look at the evidence and say, are we comfortable as

:52:34.:52:36.

Conservatives? The really regressive thing for me is that we are failing

:52:37.:52:40.

the most disadvantaged children in our society. We could put every

:52:41.:52:44.

penny raised from this into a really exciting programme that would be

:52:45.:52:49.

targeted specifically at the most disadvantaged communities and

:52:50.:52:51.

schools. I think you can do an enormous amount of good with this

:52:52.:52:54.

money and nobody needs to pay it, so that's not regressive. So it's not

:52:55.:52:59.

regressive and it is a Conservative policy that will help the most

:53:00.:53:03.

disadvantaged? I have great difficulty in disagreeing with

:53:04.:53:07.

Sarah, being the chair of the select committee. But on this occasion I

:53:08.:53:10.

will. We've got to work with the drinks industry, as we have been, to

:53:11.:53:14.

reduce the content of sugar all the time. What we've done over the years

:53:15.:53:19.

is we've developed tastes for more and more sugar. We've got to wean

:53:20.:53:22.

people off of that. The problem I've got with the tax is, if we're not

:53:23.:53:27.

careful, it will be the poorest people having to pay it. Well they

:53:28.:53:32.

don't have to buy it? But in many respects they will because they have

:53:33.:53:35.

got used to buying it and their children will still be wanting it.

:53:36.:53:41.

And I just think we would be better off changing their taste. How would

:53:42.:53:45.

you do that? Literally by taking the sugar out of the drink. And that is

:53:46.:53:51.

being done. But we need to do it much faster. The food and drink

:53:52.:53:55.

industry have said that. They need more pressure, I think. Is that

:53:56.:53:58.

where the pressure should be? They more pressure, I think. Is that

:53:59.:54:01.

should be pushed to reduce the 11 spoonfuls of sugar in the drinks?

:54:02.:54:05.

should be pushed to reduce the 11 Self-regulation has not helped on

:54:06.:54:08.

its own. And Sarah is not really a conservative, I

:54:09.:54:17.

its own. And Sarah is not really a since May. But on things like

:54:18.:54:17.

assisted dying on the Juniors since May. But on things like

:54:18.:54:22.

against it are people like the BMA, since May. But on things like

:54:23.:54:24.

British Heart Foundation, all the British Heart Foundation, all the

:54:25.:54:28.

people who know what they are talking about oppose this. Do you

:54:29.:54:33.

mean oppose it? I mean oppose the idea to have sugar. You can have

:54:34.:54:38.

free formulation at the same time, but it has taken ten years for us to

:54:39.:54:42.

gradually down regulate the amount of salt in our food. I'd say we

:54:43.:54:47.

would be failing a whole generation of children if we did not take the

:54:48.:54:52.

decision to do both. Isn't it a failure of governments that have cut

:54:53.:54:56.

public health campaigns and the money that goes into them? We had

:54:57.:55:01.

extremely effective ones on drink-driving, an

:55:02.:55:03.

extremely effective ones on campaigning. You are having to

:55:04.:55:05.

substitute, if you like, the fact that your government won't pay for

:55:06.:55:09.

those effective campaigns, by taxing the product itself? I'd say that's

:55:10.:55:14.

certainly the amount we the product itself? I'd say that's

:55:15.:55:17.

public health campaigns is dwarfed by the powerful messaging from

:55:18.:55:21.

industry driving people in the other direction. However I would say it is

:55:22.:55:23.

a mistake to think that education direction. However I would say it is

:55:24.:55:27.

alone can do this. The interesting thing about education campaigns is

:55:28.:55:31.

alone can do this. The interesting taken up more by people who are

:55:32.:55:33.

already healthy. Paradoxically you end up widening the gap. When you

:55:34.:55:40.

already healthy. Paradoxically you that are backing this idea of a

:55:41.:55:42.

sugar tax, and you look that are backing this idea of a

:55:43.:55:45.

of obesity, despite the fact there that are backing this idea of a

:55:46.:55:49.

London published some research that obesity levels

:55:50.:55:53.

London published some research that levelling off, but the cost of

:55:54.:55:56.

obesity to the taxpayer and the national health service, and type

:55:57.:55:58.

obesity to the taxpayer and the two diabetes is huge, surely

:55:59.:56:00.

something like this has to be done? I don't disagree with you. But I

:56:01.:56:05.

would say what we have to do, and Sarah makes the point, we are taking

:56:06.:56:09.

far too long, we have got to put much, much more pressure on the food

:56:10.:56:13.

and drink 's companies to reduce the amount of sugar in the drink. And

:56:14.:56:15.

that, in the end, amount of sugar in the drink. And

:56:16.:56:18.

much more effective than a sugar tax. The problem with a sugar tax is

:56:19.:56:23.

much more effective than a sugar that it will affect the people who

:56:24.:56:26.

can least afford to pay it, and in the end won't amount to a great deal

:56:27.:56:31.

of money, and what we need to do is put the onus back on those food and

:56:32.:56:34.

drink companies to deliver that drink without sugar. We will have to

:56:35.:56:41.

finish it there, but thank you very much.

:56:42.:56:42.

Now it's time to find out the answer to our quiz.

:56:43.:56:45.

Which hirsute Member of Parliament is tipped to win the Parliamentary

:56:46.:56:48.

beard of the year for a record sixth time?

:56:49.:56:50.

Is it Paul Flynn, Stephen Crabb, John Spellar, or Jeremy Corbyn?

:56:51.:56:56.

I think it should be Jeremy Corbyn because loads of Labour MPs seem to

:56:57.:57:09.

have grown beards, even Dan Hodges. He is not a Labour MP of course. But

:57:10.:57:14.

he now has a beard and I think that is the Corbyn effect. Do you agree?

:57:15.:57:21.

I will go the Stephen Crabb. Well it is actually Jeremy Corbyn, as you

:57:22.:57:22.

might imagine. Well, as you might imagine

:57:23.:57:24.

Jeremy Corbyn is the man to beat having won the award no less than

:57:25.:57:27.

five times in the past. And the man behind the competition,

:57:28.:57:30.

Keith Flett of the Beard Liberation Tell us about this competition? It

:57:31.:57:39.

has been running for almost 15 years. We run a separate one for

:57:40.:57:45.

MPs, so they don't dominate the wider competition. It has been

:57:46.:57:50.

running 15 years. It is a genuine online vote. So I'm afraid be have

:57:51.:57:56.

to mobilise their supporters, you only vote once. We will see. Jeremy

:57:57.:58:01.

Corbyn must be the man to beat? Yes, he has won it five times. Why?

:58:02.:58:06.

What's so great about his beard? Back in the day it was relatively

:58:07.:58:11.

rare for an MP to have a beard, and he spoke occasionally on beards in

:58:12.:58:16.

the house and generally had a very high-profile beard, shall we say? It

:58:17.:58:20.

speaks for itself. What about Stephen Crabb? He could be the first

:58:21.:58:24.

beard in the Cabinet. Yes, relatively new last year. He has

:58:25.:58:29.

been around a bit longer, his name is better known. I would think it

:58:30.:58:33.

will go down to a whisker, shall we say, between them. It's going to be

:58:34.:58:38.

razor-sharp right to the end, isn't it? The excitement is killing us

:58:39.:58:42.

all, I'm sure. Thank you very much for coming in.

:58:43.:58:45.

The 1pm news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:46.:58:53.

Andrew will be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:58:54.:58:57.

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