Browse content similar to 01/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon folks and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
With enough MPs behind him, David Cameron calls a vote in the Commons | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
Will RAF bombers be in action over Syria by the end of the week? | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
Jeremy Corbyn ties himself and his party in knots over | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Labour's position on airstrikes - how badly damaged is his authority? | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
And the Labour leader faces his first big electoral test | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
on Thursday in the town that invented fish and chips. | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
Will the party get battered in Oldham? | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
David Cameron joins hundreds of world leaders in Paris to show | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
off their green credentials - but after scrapping environmental | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
of the programme today, the Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas. | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
So we've been bombing Islamic State in Iraq for months. | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
By the end of the week, we are almost certain to be hitting | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Tomorrow, Prime Minister's Questions has been | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
cancelled and MPs will spend all day debating the issue before voting. | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
David Cameron said he would only call for such a vote | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
That certainty was handed to the PM after a fractious Shadow Cabinet | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
meeting in which Jeremy Corbyn decided to give his MPs | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
a free vote - about 50 of them are expected to support the government. | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
Here's what the Prime Minister had to say last night. | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
I believe there's growing support across Parliament for a compelling | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
case to answer the call from our allies to act | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
The headquarters, in many ways, of the terrorists is in Syria, | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
and it makes no sense to recognise this border in the action we take | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
when Isil themselves don't recognise this border. | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
It's the right thing to do, we will be acting with our allies, | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
we will be careful and responsible as we do so, | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
but in my view it's right to do this to help to keep our country safe. | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
We're joined now by the Labour MP, Mary Creagh, | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Are you sure you know what you are doing? Absolutely. I have been very | :02:55. | :03:11. | |
clear since visiting the Lebanon and saw the humanitarian tragedy in that | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
country that we have a duty to act in the Middle East, and that the war | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
in Syria has spilled into Turkey, the bombs in Ankara, Lebanon, | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
Jordan, all of those countries on the front line of this humanitarian | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
crisis, and carrying on with business as usual is not the answer. | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
How does more bombings solve the humanitarian crisis, or even | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
ameliorated? We have to look at it as one part of a full political and | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
diplomatic framework. We know how the international serious support | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
group meeting monthly. The next meeting is in Vienna. Iran, Saudi | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
Arabia and Russia are engaged in a way they were nothing gauged in the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
failed Geneva peace process the last three years. Hope is those peace | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
talks will lead to democratic elections and the ending of a sad's | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
rain of terror against his own people. Why not let these peace | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
takes take their course if you think they are so positive? Why get | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
involved in the bombing in the interim? We are already involved in | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
overflying for the coalition of 60 countries already engaged. We are | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
engaged in Iraq and we are effectively stopping at the border, | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
a border that Isil does not recognise. Their results or a moral | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
imperative. We founded the United Nations. My party is an | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
internationalist party. When the French and Americans are calling on | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
us to hope them in their hour of need after that terrible attack in | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
Paris and many other places, that we have a duty to listen to that. And | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
of course the UN Security Council resolution, supported by countries | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
as various as China, Venezuela, Angola and New Zealand, calls on | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
most to use all necessary measures. There is a clear legal basis as | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
well. Caroline Lucas, the UN has paved the way for action. And our | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
major allies, including the French, would like us to join them. Why | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
shouldn't we? I think at the minute we shouldn't. There hasn't been a | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
big enough case made by the Prime Minister that are getting involved | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
would either make Britain safer or indeed bring more likelihood of | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
peace in the region. I think looking at the evidence given to the Foreign | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
Affairs Select Committee it is really clear that all of the | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
evidence they received was that if we get involved in this, it is | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
actually going to feed the ice 's narrative, which they would love to | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
be able to present them as the guardians of Islam against the | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
Crusaders from the West. If we play into that, recruits will grow. That | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
is already happening. Let's look at what is happening from the bombing | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
so far. Were you against the bombing in Iraq? Just now? Yes, I was. So | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
you don't think we should be involved militarily at all? I don't. | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
If you look at the evidence of the bombing that has taken place so far | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
over Iraq, then basically over the last year we have seen more | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
recruits, double the number of recruits have gone to Isis since | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
that bombing has started, because we feeding narrative. They have lost | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
major ground as well. That is disputed. A lot of it is desert. | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
They have also gained places like Palmira Silva Palmieri is in Syria. | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
The US has been bombing Syria for a long time and it has not driven Isis | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
back. It does risk the narrative that more recruits will come to | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
Isis. By saying we do not want to drop bombs does not mean we don't | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
want action. Of course we want action. We could be putting pressure | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
on Turkey, for example, to seal the border, to stop the weapons and the | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
oil sales feeding Isis. What does pressure mean? Looking at Saudi in | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
particular, we could be looking at all kinds of financial measures. We | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
have been happy enough to take them over Russia in the Ukraine and yet | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
we are not taking those measures against Saudi Arabia. You want us to | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
take financial sanctions against Saudi Arabia? That is something we | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
should certainly consider, yes. Saudi Arabia is not clamping down on | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
the families and others channelling finance to Isis. We always look at | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
the military response as the fastest and easiest thing to do. We don't | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
necessarily look at other ways that Isis is being fed. It is being fed | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
by finance, weapons and the chaos of the Syrian Civil War. The Syrian | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
economy has effectively collapsed into a wartime economy funded by | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
arms funding -- arms smuggling and people smuggling and the distortion | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
of the 60,000 disappeared people. We have effectively must got a failed | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
state in Syria. Caroline Todd Sinnott sealing the border with | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
Turkey. -- Caroline talks about. The last thing people in Turkey wants to | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
see is the borders sealed. We have huge flows of people out of Syria. | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
Over half of the population is displaced. 4 million people who have | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
left, 6 million displaced. It is in a desperate state. As long as we | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
leave Islamic State there, they now have 30,000 fighters from over 100 | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
different countries. If we are prepared to just allow them to | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
continue to regroup and recruit in Raqqa, then we will never have peace | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
in Iraq and we've never have peace in Syria. There were 15,000 recruits | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
last year from 80 countries. The bombing has led to the increase in | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
recruits. What you are doing here is actually encouraging more people to | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
see this as a fight between the West and Islam. Therefore there are an | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
increasing number of recruits going to that area. Shortly before more | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
bombing, we should look at the effect the bombing has had so far. | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
You posit the effect that the bombing has had this effect. I would | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
argue the effect of having a failed state in Syria, the effect that they | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
are the only people who seem to be standing up to Assad in his own | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
country, means that in effect there were 200,000 free Syrian fighters | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
two years ago. Now they are down to 70,000. There is a lot of fluidity | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
in Syria. As long as Assad is there, Peter Luff co-opted into fighting | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
for them. It is that propaganda as well. Where are these phantom 70,000 | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
ground troops who are going to support us? Everybody agrees that | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
bombing on its own will not work. We need ground forces. David Cameron | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
came to the Commons and claimed there were 70,000 ground forces who | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
were not for a sad and were not extremist. That figure has been | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
absolutely hammered by all of the experts. Robert Fisk yesterday | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
called it a complete mockery to suggest those ground troops. This is | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
why the peace process is so important. As the Free Syrian Army | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
is murdered by a sad they will be fewer people able to protect their | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
towns and able to stand up for him. -- Assad. We need a multinational | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
peace framework for the people of Syria to take back their nation from | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
The Jihadi Spot and the idea that we just let them get on with it... We | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
found mass graves. They were marching in Baghdad earlier this | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
year, Islamic State. Let me finish. You have had your say. The idea that | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
somehow just allowing it all to continue... Nobody is talking about | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
allowing it to continue. We have allowed it to continue for three | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
years. They enslaved children as young as five into sexual slavery | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
and they murder women of our age who are too old to be sold. Summoning | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
people giving evidence to the furnace 's committee said that by | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
getting involved in the bombing we reduce our capacity to play a big | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
role in the diplomatic efforts. Many of those experts say Britain is well | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
placed because we are not bombing Syria to play a real role in the | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
peace talks. That would be undermined if we become part of it. | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
But you don't know that. They don't know it either. It is just a piece | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
of commentary. It is not the basis of policy. The foreigner 's | :11:51. | :11:59. | |
committee assembled those experts. They came to the conclusion that the | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
case had not been made for bombing. The chairman of that committee has | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
changed his mind. You put this great faith in the peace process, both of | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
you. The evidence is pretty slight for it. But at the same time you | :12:16. | :12:24. | |
want to use the non-IS terrorist anti-Assad people. But any peace | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
process will involve Assad and the Russians. I don't understand how you | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
can keep the anti-Assad Freedom Fighters happy and still have to | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
deal with Mr Assad and the Russians. They are on opposite sides. We have | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
to give Syria backed its territorial integrity, which it no longer has. | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
It is no longer a functioning state. The second thing is, we have defied | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
the terrorist factory, The Jihadi Spot three, which is, we have defied | :12:55. | :12:56. | |
the terrorist factory, The Jihadi Spot three, which eased in Syria has | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
become. We foiled seven terror attacks in our own country this | :13:01. | :13:10. | |
year. Let's make sure we don't make things worse. Nobody is denying Isis | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
does terrible things. We need to move on. You have both had a good | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
chance to air your eye humans. I'm no -- I know the viewers will be | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
listening very carefully to both sides. | :13:27. | :13:26. | |
So, Jeremy Corbyn's implacably opposed to extending air strikes to | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
Syria, but he's failed to persuade many of his MPs, his Shadow Cabinet | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
and even the Shadow Foreign Secretary that he's right. | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
So yesterday he had to abandon plans to whip his MPs and offered them, | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
It was less than a edifying spectacle. | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
In a stormy Shadow Cabinet meeting, it was reported that Shadow Home | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Secretary Andy Burnham accused Mr Corbyn of trying to "throw MPs | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
to the wolves", by trying to force them to vote against air strikes. | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
According to reports afterwards, ministers described | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
the situation as "embarrassing" and "disgraceful" and accused | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
Then yesterday evening, the Labour leader had to face backbench MPs. | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
There were attacks on the party's advisor on defence | :14:08. | :14:16. | |
was said to have argued, "We cannot unite the party if the leader's | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
So where does this leave Mr Corbyn's position? | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
With me in the studio is Matt Wrack, the General Secretary of the | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
Fire Brigades Union, who have just re-affiliated with Labour. | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
Mr Wrack says the Labour party has "changed for the better since the | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
election of Jeremy Corbyn", arguing he has given his members | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
and supporters "hope that we can shift the political debate | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
I assume you have joined, you want the union to be affiliated because | :14:42. | :14:56. | |
you think Labour is much more left-wing under Mr Corbyn We think | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
that there is an opportunity for politics addresses the issues | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
affecting working people and trade unionist, we were affiliated from | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
1926 to 2004. There has been a debate and Jeremy Corbyn has been a | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
long time ally of our union, he has stood by us in difficult times, and | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
stood up for trade union rights for public services, against authority | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
and that resonates with a lots of our people. When you left Labour the | :15:26. | :15:33. | |
Fire Brigades' Union developed link with far left groups The union | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
didn't. But individuals did. Individuals still have the right to | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
do whatever they want to do politically but the union has | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
policies, it has only ever supported Labour candidates. But you must | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
think now, or want to be part of the move, that the FBU wants to be part | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
of a move to make the Labour Party stand for more things like the, like | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
Tusk rather than the Labour Party under Mr Blair. As I said, the union | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
has never taken a position on Tusk, it has its policies which reflect | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
many of the policies of many trade unions against austerity for workers | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
rights, standing up for public service workers and so on, so as an | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
affiliate of the Labour Party we will be arguing for those policies | :16:18. | :16:19. | |
within the structures of the Labour Party. That is what any affiliate | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
would do. What policies of Mr Corbyn's don't you like? I think we | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
are supportive of Mr Corbyn's policies is. That was my point. Yes. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
That you are. What do you say to the argument... The point is we are an | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
independent organisation with our own policies and structures that | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
will determine... I understand that. But what do you say to those who | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
would point out every time your wing of the Labour Party takes control, | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
or the Labour Party moves in this direction, you lose electionsome, | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
does that matter? Of course it matters to win election, I think | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
that the the experience in our view of the past decade, two decades is | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
that many core Labour voters have been disenfranchised, feel | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
disenfranchised and we would want to be part of a movement engages with | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
traditional Labour voters and with the trade unions, there has been | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
disquiet among trade unions for many years. But as you are probably to | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
find out in the Oldham by-election those disheartened Labour voters are | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
more likely to vote for Ukip than your brand of politics There needs | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
to be a long-term strategy to engage with many of these people. Whatever | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
wing of the Labour Party people are on nobody would dispute the need to | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
edge gauge with the people. Are you happy a strong left-wing voice has | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
come into the Labour Party? I am delighted the Fire Brigades' Union | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
has rejoined the Labour Party. It struck me as an anomaly that they | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
ever left, if you don't mind me saying. It is another strong voice | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
that will take the party in a direction of which you do not | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
approve of, broadly. Locally my Fire Service has suffered tremendous cuts | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
and when I have been briefed by my Chief Fire Officer they have told me | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
by 2020 most of the firefighters, the majority of firefighters in West | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
Yorkshire will be over the age of 50. I think there is a real issue, | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
in the Fire Service, about the fact that we are not recruiting young | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
firefighter, we are not training them and the closure of fire | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
stations and it is interesting what you said about different parties, we | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
have a former firefighter who is a Ukip councillor in my area, so I | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
look forward to working with Matt on tackling some of the Ukip mythology. | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
I understand that, but on the broad thrust of Mr Corbyn's direction he | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
is going in, that is another strong voice you will end up opposing. I | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
don't oppose the Fire Brigades' Union, I think they do amazing work. | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
I am not... I, on the question was not do you oppose the Fire Brigades' | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
Union for being the Fire Brigades' Union, that would be an absurd | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
question, that would be an equally ludicrous we, me point is this is a | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
strong well-organised union that is back in the Labour Party, determined | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
to take the Labour Party in the direction Mr Corbyn wants it to go, | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
and you are opposed to that. I want the Labour Party to move forward in | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
the broad coalition and the Broadchurch it has always been. I | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
welcome the rejoining of the FBU as an historic trade union, | :19:32. | :19:33. | |
representing thousands of working men and women. I am not sure what my | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
case is, so we all want to see a Labour Government in 2020. You know, | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
the more people we have working towards that end, the better it is. | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
Should Mr Corbyn have whipped the Labour Party against extending | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
bombing to Syria? You are against it too. Personally I a am. My union | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
hasn't discussed the current situation, although we have | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
discussed related matters. We were talking about the safety of British | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
citizens in relation to terrorism. It is appalling that we are | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
discussing that at the same time that this week, the London Fire | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
Brigade is discussing cutting another 13 fire engines on the | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
instructions of the mayor. So let us, if we are talking about the | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
safety of British citizens, 7/7 the firefighters were sent down into | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
tunnels to save people's lives. We are now in a week of -- weaker | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
position in relation to public safety, firefighters have a great | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
interest in terrorism. And a great role to play when terrorism... My | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
question to you was, should Mr Corbyn have whipped the Labour Party | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
against extending strikes into Syria? I wasn't in that discussion, | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
that is a matter for Mr Corbyn as the leader of the Labour Party to | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
make. I do think there are a whole host of contradictions in the | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
position that David Cameron is adopting in relation to Syria, two | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
years ago he wanted to bomb the other side. Today he wants to bomb a | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
different side in a nasty Civil War. I don't, I am not personally | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
convinced there is a realise ticks strategy to address the threat of | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
Isil. Caroline, you agree with Mr Corbyn on most things, on war and | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
peace, social justice, environmental issue, rejecting austerity, where | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
don't you agree on him I am glad he did give a free vote. I think on | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
matters of such issues of conscience it is right to give a free vote. | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
What about the wider issues I raised On the issue of Syria on Trident, | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
yes we have worked closely. Where don't you agree with him? Jeremy is | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
leading the Labour Party. I know, what don't, I am trying to get the | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
answer. Where I agree is I think he has strong policies. I didn't ask | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
you, where do you disagree. I will give you the the answer. On | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
recognising the imperative of green policies of environmental policy ssm | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
nuclear power. He says he is a huge environmentalist and I am sure you | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
were in there you could nudge him more in that direction. You are the | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
last person to take what someone says as being the gospel truth. You | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
will address it and interrogate it. I would say that Labour Party that | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
is up supporting nuclear power is a Labour Party that hasn't recognised | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
the future of energy needs to be one which is community energy, that is | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
renewable energy, green energy, the amount of money nuclear energy will | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
cost us is going to have massive opportunity costs. You have got the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
Fire Brigades' Union right but I failed in my attempt to get The | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
Greens. Nice try. Thank you very much both of you. | :22:47. | :22:47. | |
It is final for our daily quiz. Caroline Lucas | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
and other campaigners have been trying to destroy the Lords | :22:52. | :22:52. | |
for years, but it seems something So our question for today is, | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
what's eating the House of Lords? I hope none of you are enjoying | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
your lunch at the moment. At the end of the show Caroline | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
will give us the correct answer. Now, the Conservative Party board | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
met yesterday afternoon to decide its next move in the scandal | :23:14. | :23:15. | |
surrounding allegations of bullying At the weekend | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
the party's former co-chairman Grant Shapps resigned as minister, saying | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
that the buck stopped with him - but that failed to stem criticism of | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
the party's handling of the affair. Let's speak to our Deputy | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
Political Editor, James Landale. Where are we in this now? I see the | :23:28. | :23:58. | |
Tories are now had to go to another rather more independent inquiry to | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
try and hose this down? Yes, what they have done is decided to hand | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
the entire inquiry over to Clifford Chance, it was in, they were | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
reviewing the Conservative Party's internal inquiry, that has changed, | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
clift Chance will take sole charge, that inquiry itself will be sqently | :24:18. | :24:25. | |
reviewed by a guy called Lord Panick. The report will be | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
published, when the board discusses the findings of the report, Lord | :24:31. | :24:39. | |
Feldman and Robert Halfon will. What the party is trying to do, they will | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
clear their hands of the inquiry so it is more independent than it was | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
in the past. In a hope that will satisfy some of the critics it has | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
gone far enough. In other words, grant Shapes has resigned. The -- | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
Grant Shapps has resigned. They hope it will draw a line I sense a | :24:56. | :25:03. | |
circling of the establishment Tory wagons round Andrew Feldman, is that | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
right? Does he survive to at least until this report comes out? I think | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
that is what they will hope will happen. Certainly, the message has | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
gone out that Andrew Feldman needs to be supported. I have had | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
unprompted calls from Conservative MPs saying he is a nice chap. He is | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
a Popular Party chairmanlet one because he is a pleasant individual, | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
and you know they enjoy, interacting with him, secondly he raises a lot | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
of money for the Conservative Party. He has got the Conservative Party in | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
much better shape than in the past, the MPs understand that, because | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
that filters down through to their local associations, the other thing | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
that is helping the Government and the Conservative Party is the fact | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
there are so much attention on Syria at the moment, that it takes some of | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
the political heat out of this story, so the pressure from The | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
Papers and elsewhere is hidden inside the newspapers rather than on | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
the front-page. The key question is this, that is the father of the | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
young story -- Tory activist who died earlier this year, Ray | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
Johnston, he is a man who has already you know, expressed his | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
opinion strongly that Grant Shapps should resign. He has resigned. He | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
still thinks that Lord Feldman should resign. A lot of papers will | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
take their cue from that. I don't think the pressure is over yet. | :26:21. | :26:21. | |
EU leaders met with Turkey at the weekend, and have agreed | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
a deal to try and stem the flow of migrants travelling through | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
Turkey has agreed to tighten its border and reduce the number | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
of people leaving its shores and heading to Greece. | :26:33. | :26:34. | |
720,000 migrants have arrived in Greece so far this year. | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
But Turkey won several big concessions in return. | :26:38. | :26:39. | |
As part of the deal, the EU will give Turkey an initial | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
three billion euros to help Syrian refugees in the country. | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
Turkish citizens will be able to travel to Europe visa-free within | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
a year, as long as certain conditions are met. | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
And negotiations on Turkey joining the EU will be re-opened. | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
The Turkish Prime Minister said it was an "historic day" | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
Some say the EU has been too generous, but | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Turkey should not be "left alone" | :27:02. | :27:03. | |
And we're joined now by the Ukip MP, Douglas Carswell. | :27:04. | :27:26. | |
Welcome. What is wrong with this deal? I can see from turkey's point | :27:27. | :27:35. | |
of view why it is good. First of all they get EU membership negotiations | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
to resume now, I wouldn't want EU membership on a friend and I am a | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
friend of Turkey. It would be bad for them. They get 2 billion a year, | :27:43. | :27:51. | |
3 billion euro, ?400,000, sorry 400 million of which we contribute to. | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
400,000 refugees a year will be shared out among the Shengen | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
country, we are not in Shengen, but once you have been allocated to a | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
Shengen country, and you have got your residency papers you will have | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
the right to come and live in this country. Imagine you are part of the | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
quota that gets allocated to Portugal our Italy. The moment you | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
get your papers you can move from Portugal to heck ham or Italy to | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
Ipswich. No-one is asking whether we agree. It's a bad deal for us. | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
Caroline Lucas what do you say? I have serious misgivings as well. | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Turkey's human rights record is appall, I think that the role they | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
are praying in the crisis in Syria is unhelpful and so the idea we are | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
going to open doors now, to them, seems to me to be wrong. If they | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
were going to be part of negotiations to be part of the EU, | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
there are all kinds of things they would have to put in place first. | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
The independence of the judiciary, human right, a range of qualities. | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
For all these reasons no-one ex Presidents Turkey to be a member of | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
the EU in the foreseeable future They are getting a key benefit which | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
is the act to move round the EU at will without having to show papers | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
or have restriction, that is the concern. The fact that 75 million | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
Turks will have unreTricketted non-visa access from October. People | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
say that doesn't confer perm negotiate right of residence. They | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
are going to stay in. How do we know that people coming into the Shengen | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
area from October are not going to remain there? Once they have | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
obtained residency right, they will, I am sure, move to this country. So, | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
why didn't the British Government oppose this? Indeed. You may notice | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
I am not a defender of the current Government. I have noticed that. I | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
think that David Cameron has allowed the European Union to negotiate on | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
our behalf, with Turkey and it is yet one more reason why we are | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
better off leaving the European Union, the European Union has lost | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
control of its migration policy itself has lost the ability to | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
negotiate well. We would be wetter -- better off taking control. You | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
don't agree with that, but, the European Union clearly felt it has | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
to do something to try and at least get a grip of this uncontrolled | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
migration that is currently coming in, and even though we we have moved | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
now as of today into the winter months it will be become I suspect a | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
humanitarian crisis, even worse now, they felt they had to do something, | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
and didn't they use what tools they have available, which is money and | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
some agreement. They know that they can't put a fence up. They know it | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
can't be fortress Europe. They are right to recognise the situation in | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
the refugee camps is getting desperate. People are in poverty and | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
cold and hungry and yes, finances should be going to support people in | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
those refugee camps and Britain ought to be doing more as well, | :30:58. | :30:59. | |
although with have a good record. I would like us to talk to our EU | :31:00. | :31:11. | |
counterparts to step up the finance they were putting into the pot | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
rather than opening the doors to a country with such an appalling human | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
rights record and would not be in a position to join the EU given that | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
record. If a Turkish national takes the advantage of this, they will | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
still have two show their Turkish passport at the British border, | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
while they? Correct. But if you are allowed into Europe and there is no | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
system to log people in, you will just stay. In America they have a | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
technology driven system which means you are logged in and logged out. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
The London Underground logs you in and out. Europe simply does not have | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
it. It is allowing people entry into Schengen was no way of locking them | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
in or out. Was there a sense of desperation from Europe on this? | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
That is an interesting point about the login and logged out. There is | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
no real political will, even in Germany, which used to be a big | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
supporter of Turkey, to give Turkey full membership but it has been | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
dangled there. The idea that President Hollande, this side of a | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
difficult election, would agree to Turkish membership is inconceivable. | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
I think that is right. It is a Turkish membership is inconceivable. | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
slightly cynical move. People are very worried about vast numbers of | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
refugees coming and they are trying to outsource the problem, to leave | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
it to the Turkish, give them some benefits and close our eyes to it. | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
It is really worrying. A few years ago the problem with Europe not | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
being able to handle its currency, now we see Europe not been able to | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
provide basic leadership over the migration crisis. Maybe Europe | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
simply cannot organise the affairs of half a billion people this way. | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
Maybe we should leave the European Union and take control. It is such a | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
shame that is where you always end up! The people we're blaming the | :33:10. | :33:19. | |
current governments of the EU. I don't blame the EU. I blame | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
successive British administrations that have signed us up. A quick | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
question. Have you made up your mind how you are going to vote in the | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
Syrian motion? I am genuinely undecided. Will you win Oldham? We | :33:34. | :33:42. | |
are still the underdog but it could happen, let's wait and see. | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
World leaders are meeting in Paris to try and reach international | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
agreement on reducing emissions and tackling climate change. | :33:49. | :33:49. | |
In his speech to the conference yesterday, David | :33:50. | :33:51. | |
Cameron said we need "global action to deal with a global problem". | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
But closer to home green campaigners are angry at changes made | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
in the summer budget and recent spending review that will | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
reduce the subsidies available to renewable energy, once famously | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
Last week, Chancellor George Osborne announced that the green levies paid | :34:04. | :34:15. | |
by consumers on their energy bills will be reduced. | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
He also scrapped a ?1 billion competition to develop carbon | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
And exempted energy intensive industries, like steel, from | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
the cost of environmental tariffs, while cutting the day-to-day budget | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
for the Department for Energy and Climate Change by 22%. | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
This is on top of plans already announced to raise | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
hundreds of millions in taxes from renewable energy companies by making | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
And cuts in the subsidies available for solar power and onshore wind. | :34:46. | :34:58. | |
Offshore wind still gets its subsidies. | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
Energy and Climate Change Secretary Amber Rudd insists the government is | :35:02. | :35:03. | |
still on course to meet its emissions targets, and says it is | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
doubling funding for innovation and research in the energy industry, | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
while taking action to keep the cost of energy down. | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
We're joined now by the former Conservative Cabinet | :35:15. | :35:16. | |
Welcome. When you see that list of changes the Government has made, | :35:17. | :35:27. | |
particularly in subsidies to renewable energy, quite hard to | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
claim to be the greenest government ever, isn't it? They are being even | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
greener than they intended. They said forward a certain budget to | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
reach a certain target for renewables. The subsidies were | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
generous and people signed up too fast. The budget was fully used up. | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
And they were ahead of schedule in meeting their targets. I am | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
sceptical about the whole business. But to give them credit, it is not | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
because they wanted to do too little, but they had done more than | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
they intended. You think there is no doubt we meet our renewable targets? | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
I don't think there is. Caroline may have a sceptical view. In the short | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
term we will meet them but longer term it looks likely that we will | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
not. The idea of cutting the subsidies to solar right now is what | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
is just so lacking in any sense. The bit of support could have gone on | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
for another few years. Solar would have been at a stage where it would | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
not have needed that extra support. It would have been able to compete | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
with other fossil fuels and other markets. Just for the sake of | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
another few years of that support, we have sacrificed a growing | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
industry. In Brighton there are solar companies going out of | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
business. Thousands of people are being laid off, possibly up to | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
20,000, as a result of this short-sighted move. Another couple | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
of years would have done the job? It is always a couple of years. Even if | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
they reach grid parity, the cost of producing electricity by solar is | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
the same as delivering it to the grid, unfortunately solar delivers | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
it only at The Times we do not need it. We need it most in winter and in | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
the evenings. The sun does not shine very much in the summer for the | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
evenings. Electricity is much less valuable at that time. To be | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
competitive it would have too produced between 30 and 50% less | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
cost than conventional fuels. There is no chance of that on the horizon. | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
You know there are huge strides happening when it comes to energy | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
storage. One of the decisions this government has taken is to lock us | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
into this huge contract with building a new nuclear power station | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
at Hinkley Point. The evidence is clearly there that that power | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
station will lock us into those funds for 35 years. If you look at | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
what solar could have done, we would have been getting electricity far | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
more cheaply than from nuclear. I understand the economics. But that | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
does presuppose we will crack the storage issue. The power generated | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
by solar, when the sun is shining, we can then store insufficiently | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
large quantities to feed it into the grid. It does not exist yet. Not in | :38:23. | :38:33. | |
any large scale. It may one day. We are always making breakthroughs, we | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
are always on the edge things. It would not matter if we had subsidies | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
for the next few years are not, but it is not remotely close. I hope | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
they do develop these storage things and they become cheaper. But at the | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
moment they are only dreams of the Greens. They do not exist in the | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
real world. The Paris climate talks are already talking about an | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
international group of scientists stepping up the work on this. It | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
would be done far faster than when you get the first bit of electricity | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
coming out of Hinkley Point. I will lay a bet on it. Back to Hinkley | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
Point, people have criticised onshore and offshore wind for being | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
expensive. It is a fair bet that Hinckley power station will be the | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
most expensive power station ever built in the world and need time | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
anywhere. -- any time. That is assuming it is on-time and budget, | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
which given EDF and France's record, will probably be a stupid | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
assumption to make. I agree. I am rather sceptical on it. I used to be | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
keen on nuclear energy. As a child I decided to be an scientist because | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
nuclear -- because nuclear energy had just been discovered. Now it is | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
too extensive to contemplate. It is one of those things where the | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
assumption that costs always goes down does not prove to be true. I | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
may recruit Peter to the anti nuclear cores. I would be in favour | :40:07. | :40:14. | |
of looking at small modular areas. At least the industry would be | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
home-grown and capable of exporting. On the wider issue of what is going | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
on in Paris, you don't really think it is important, is that right? It | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
is not terribly important. Even if it achieves what it claims to | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
achieve, the only two studies I have seen which have fed through all of | :40:34. | :40:35. | |
the commitments that governments are planning to make through the | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
computers, forecasts for the future climate, I am sceptical. That this | :40:42. | :40:56. | |
will mean that the world at the end of the century is 0.2 degrees cooler | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
than it would otherwise be. An expenditure of trillions of dollars. | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
I would certainly say that Bjorn Lundberg is hardly an independent | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
expert. Surely he is as independent as you, me or Andrew. What is | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
happening in Paris is incredibly exciting. I think these are the best | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
chances we have had of getting an agreement to keep warming as close | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
below 2 degrees. We want to keep below two Celsius warming. At the | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
moment if you add up what the different countries have pledged, it | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
is still looking more like 2.7. The good thing is they were building a | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
ratchet mechanism whereby these could be reviewed regularly so that | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
as the science and technology progresses, we could also ratchet up | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
the ambition. Will it be binding? I fear that it will not be binding. | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
That is a weakness, isn't it? It is certainly a weakness. But if you | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
compare where we are now with Copenhagen, that disintegrated in | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
such chaos. Now we have a good text in front of negotiators that can be | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
improved. We have do hope the political will is there. Copenhagen | :42:13. | :42:22. | |
handed -- ended without resolution. There are higher hopes for the Paris | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
meeting. There is a sense there with the agreement will stop They will | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
always agree to agree. It is agree to something because it is not | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
binding. Most countries, as they develop, will start using energy | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
more efficiently. They will be able to make commitments to reduce the | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
amount of energy per unit of GDP. China will do that automatically. It | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
has nothing to do with carbon dioxide. That has been happening in | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
America. Yes. The fact that China and the US are absolutely on-board, | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
the fact that businesses are lobbying... China is now the biggest | :43:03. | :43:10. | |
place for renewable energy. Is also going to build 100 new coal | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
stations. It is also doing a lot on renewable energy. It is not a great | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
policy to have. It helps to create that huge smog. They are moving away | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
from that very fast. I would be very surprised if 100 new ones happen | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
because of the smog but because their local people cannot live in | :43:33. | :43:42. | |
it. There could be an opportunity for you there in China! Have you | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
made up your mind how you will vote on the Syrian motion tomorrow? No. I | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
start sceptical but I would like to be persuaded there are credible | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
reasons for doing what we clearly will do but I am not yet convinced. | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
You are the second one. Douglas Carswell was in the same position. | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
We hear that the Cabinet is at last going to come to a decision on | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
another runway in the south-east. And the money seems to be on | :44:10. | :44:17. | |
Heathrow. What is your view on that? We should get on and do it. I don't | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
particularly care where it is but let's build it. You don't want a | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
runway anywhere in the south-east? Aviation is the fastest-growing | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
source of gas house emissions. I think basically what we need to do | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
is to reduce demand, that means getting a lot more freight going in | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
other ways. It means also having a proposal for a frequent fry -- Flyer | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
Levy, so it would penalise people who fly a lot, not people who fly | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
less. Do you think it will be Heathrow? Yes, I'm sure it will. Up | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
against Boris Johnson, Zac Goldsmith... We have got more older | :45:02. | :45:13. | |
Tony Evans than they have got! The idea of this government happily no | :45:14. | :45:14. | |
confirmed. Now, | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
this Thursday the polls open for a by-election in the constituency | :45:19. | :45:19. | |
of Oldham West and Royton, which the long-serving left-wing Labour | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
MP Michael Meacher represented The ballot will prove the first | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
electoral test of Jeremy Corbyn's We sent our Adam to see how | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
the battle for Oldham is unfolding. Oldham was a boom town in the Cawson | :45:29. | :45:42. | |
era. A quarter of the population has | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
Pakistani or Bangladeshi heritage, and it has been a safe Labour seat | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
for decades, held by Michael Meacher at the last election with | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
a majority of more than 14,000. Labour's candidate in this | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
by-election is the leader of the local council, but he's having to | :46:00. | :46:01. | |
answer a lot of questions about his leader, because it's the party's | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
first election with Jezza in charge. He's a man of principle | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
and substance, There is big stuff happening | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
in the world at the moment. There's no doubt people will | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
raise that on the door. It's on the news every night | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
when people come home from work and And we had those conversations, | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
and what I'm pleased about is how It's up beat and the challenge | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
for us is to make sure people turn Ukip mention Jeremy Corbyn | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
as often as they can. This is the third by-election | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
in this area What's with this | :46:42. | :46:43. | |
Presidential podium here? That's for when | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
our leader comes up to support me. I wouldn't dare present from there | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
when I know Nigel is coming up. It's not that three by-elections | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
have gone to your head? I'm going to see the doctor after | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
this one, because I must be mad. I'm doing it | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
because I really believe in what we stand for, and what we're trying to | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
go to get our country back. The Tories were beaten | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
into third place by Ukip in May. This time their leaflets | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
are resolutely local. It's a local plan, | :47:19. | :47:20. | |
it's a three point plan. It's a plan based upon issues that | :47:21. | :47:22. | |
affect people every day, and have First, it's tackling crime | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
and anti-social behaviour. Secondly, | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
it's better public transport and more investment, and thirdly, | :47:30. | :47:30. | |
it's cleaning up our streets. Dealing with the blight of potholes, | :47:31. | :47:32. | |
fly-tipping and littering. While the Liberal Democrats are | :47:33. | :47:34. | |
campaigning at the local mosque, We were the only party in Parliament | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
that stood up Thankfully, the Tories have come | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
onboard with our campaign to stop the tax credit cuts, | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
but we are still concerned there is And the Green candidate, | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
who is deaf and speaks through an interpreter, took me to a local | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
spot that is about to be built on. This is being planned now to build | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
a warehouse and houses. So this whole area is going to | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
be affected with more traffic. It will create employment, | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
but the people that live in this local area are really going | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
to miss this beautiful environment. They all want to represent | :48:13. | :48:19. | |
an area of the north-west of England where Winston Churchill began | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
his Parliamentary career. It's also claimed to be the place | :48:23. | :48:23. | |
where fish and chips were invented. There is even a Blue Plaque | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
commemorating here in the town centre, which gives me an idea for | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
a Daily Politics by-election quiz. When was the last time you went to | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
the chippy and what did you have? About three days ago, | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
fish chips and peas. There's one next door here, and I | :48:40. | :48:41. | |
have to stop myself going in because I have a terrible diet, so yes, | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
I eat far too many chips. Like, is it a a very green thing, | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
fish and chips? I'm a dietician by profession, what | :48:55. | :48:56. | |
we need is a mixed balanced diet, with lots of fruit and vegetables, | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
and did you know mushy peas count If I'm honest, | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
there is more appetite for fish and We will find out who tastes victory | :49:07. | :49:15. | |
in the early hours of Friday And a full list | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
of candidates standing in the Oldham West and Royton by-election | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
can be found on the BBC website. And to discuss Thursday's | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
by-election there we're joined by Like to The you take a this seat, it | :49:31. | :49:51. | |
is in solid Labour Terry, it has only been two years it hasn't been a | :49:52. | :49:53. | |
Labour seat. It's the kind of seat only been two years it hasn't been a | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
that a Labour opposition, emphasise being in opposition, a by-election | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
it should just automatically win? It is interesting because Oldham is | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
where Ed Miliband faced his first electoral test in Oldham East. When | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
he fought that by-election, the majority went up strongly, whereas | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
everyone expects the majority in Omid ham west to fall. The question | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
is how far, and does the seat fall into the ground of being in jeopardy | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
Do we know if there was much of a personal vote for Michael Meacher? | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
He represented that seat forever, and he was well-known locally. They | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
have another strong local candidate fighting Labour this time, from the | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
sort of centre-right of the party, does the Labour candidate, the lack | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
of Michael Meacher is that a factor? It could be. Long-term MPs | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
of Michael Meacher is that a factor? personal follows, they become part | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
of the local furniture and it may play into an issue that Labour have | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
to worry about, which is turn out. We have this election at the begins | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
of December. The weather is awful there, there may have been voters | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
who would have been willing to turn out for Michael but not for a | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
candidate who is perhaps not as familiar to them. We are all here, | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
just, obsesses isn't the word, we are amazed at what is going on at | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
the Labour Party at the minute and following every move that Mr Corbyn | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
makes, is there evidence thosing having cut through to the voters in | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
a constituency like Oldham. That is one of the things we will watch the | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
results for. There is two things we want to watch for, firstly what | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
happens to Labour vote in white working class areas where a lot of | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
the polling suggests Mr Corbyn is not popular and what happens to the | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
Conservative vote. It is about 20% Conservative vote. We don't know how | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
they will react, whether they will back a Ukip candidate on the basis | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
when we look at the national polls Conservatives dislike Mr Corbyn a | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
lot. Will they vote for Ukip on an anyone but Jezza vote. They might do | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
that? That is what happened in the late 90s when people were hack off | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
with the give it Government. The Liberal Democrats benefitted, with | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
northern Conservative voters say we can't win round here but we can send | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
a message about rejecting the current Labour leadership by voting | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
for the Ukip candidate. So we are looking at three variables here, | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
whether the Tory vote collapses in favour of Ukip, how big the turn out | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
will be in the British Asian community. Voting still loyally for | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
Labour and how bill the defections of the white working class Labour | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
vote to Ukip, is that the way to look at it. That is is right. That | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
is the big searabouts, I would add what pre-Budget reportion of the | :52:55. | :53:02. | |
white working class vote, and stay home. You are right. Tory tactical | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
voting, and turn out among the south Asian community will decide the | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
seat. It makes it hard to, I mean, we all think that the Labour | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
majority will be substantially reduced. It is 14,000, o -- 14700 at | :53:17. | :53:26. | |
the last election. It is hard to be sure how the cookie crumbles. | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
Exactly. You would have to say Labour go in favourites because of | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
the sheer size of that cushion. It is a 35% majority. You shouldn't be | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
losing seats like that under any circumstances but we don't know if | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
it will be a narrow hold. If it is, that is a big problem, if they lose | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
the seat it is a huge problem. Losing would be huge but narrow, a | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
win is a win kind of thing, even if it is a bit embarrassing you count | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
hold it by thousands of votes. I think that is is right. Labour might | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
do better than we are hearing here. The kind of policies that Michael | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
Meacher espoused are close to Jeremy Corbyn's. For people who want a | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
candidate who is more to the centre, someone who appears to be popular | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
and well-known Labour candidate locally. It might not be as grim as | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
we have been haring. We shall see. Thank you for coming on. We will see | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
the outcome and viewers will know we off the back of This Week on | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
Thursday night, we will morph into the this Week the by-election | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
special. We will be with you all through the night until we get the | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
count from Oldham. It is turning out to be an interesting by-election. | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
That is one for night owls. Some of you have to join us, we don't like | :54:47. | :54:48. | |
to talk to ourselves. Time now to give you | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
the answer to our quiz. The question was what's eating | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
the House of Lords. Car line, do you know the answer? I | :54:56. | :55:11. | |
was going to say a combination of all of them. I think I would put my | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
money on the moths. And your money would be right on the moths. That is | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
what is happening. Indeed, they are apparently devouring the soft | :55:24. | :55:30. | |
furnishing in the upper chamber, including the famous Woolsack, which | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
the Lord speaker, is that the name, sits on? That is the one who chairs | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
the Lord's, his Woolsack is in trouble. What should they do. We are | :55:41. | :55:56. | |
joined by a Lepidopterist. Welcome to the programme. Do woe | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
know why the moths are suddenly started to appear like this in the | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
Lords and cause this problem? It is a perfect place for them to live | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
really because of all the natural fibre, you have the wool in the wool | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
seat, you have got horse hair in all the benches and everything, and they | :56:16. | :56:24. | |
just like dull, dusty dinghy places, perfect, -- dingy places. | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
Why has it taken them so long to find out? Every now and again | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
populations do explode, and, so every now and again the conditions | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
are great for them. I the populations explode and they are a | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
big problem. We have 2,500 species of moth in the UK and only six like | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
to eat natural fibres and only two which is the case bearing clothes | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
moth get big enough numbers to cause damage. Do you think maybe they came | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
in on some of the members' clothes? I mean, I don't really know. I | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
suppose it is possible if they have an old suit. A lot have old suits. | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
They have big ermine things as well. It must be like a holiday for moths. | :57:12. | :57:21. | |
Stay in the ermine for a couple of week, enjoy myself, the. It is warm, | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
damp humid and there are dark nooks and crannies under the bench, so if | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
you don't get in with the vacuum cleaner it's a perfect breeding | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
ground for them. When word gets round it is will more than the | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
moths. Who knows what could come in here next. It will be like a horror | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
movie. It is probably a great echo system. How do you get rid of it. | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
Because I work for a conservation organisation it is not my forte, | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
what they can do is they can clean, be very clean, Hoover in the nooks | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
and crannies. Keep the place clean... Any jumpers or anything | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
like that, if they have egg ones, wash them and freeze them. They tend | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
to like dirty jumpers over clean ones. The place is riddled with | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
them. I am not surprised they are there. Does a moth have any function | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
for humans? Completely. Moths are really important pollinctors of | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
plants. Even knows that bees are important, but butterflies and moths | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
are too an they are really important food for bats and birds. I need to | :58:38. | :58:44. | |
stop you. Leave them alone is the message. The One O'Clock News is | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
starting on BBC One. I will be here for Jo tomorrow at the earlier time | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
of 11am. We will go through to 1.00. A Daily Politics special on that big | :58:54. | :58:54. | |
debate on Syria. '..Viking, North Utsire, | :58:55. | :59:01. | |
South Utsire, East Forties, 'southeasterly four or five, | :59:02. | :59:04. | |
increasing six or seven, | :59:05. | :59:09. |