02/12/2015 Daily Politics


02/12/2015

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn bring you live coverage of the opening of the House of Commons debate on extending air strikes against so-called Islamic State into Syria.


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Welcome to this Daily Politics Special, live

:00:00.:00:08.

from Westminster, where MPs will spend today debating and then voting

:00:09.:00:11.

on whether Britain should bomb Islamic State targets in Syria.

:00:12.:00:50.

Normal parliamentary business has been put aside today.

:00:51.:00:52.

Instead MPs will spend over 10 hours debating whether to step up military

:00:53.:01:01.

operations against Islamic State jihadists by extending air strikes

:01:02.:01:03.

The Prime Minister, who set out his case

:01:04.:01:07.

for strikes last week, is confident he'll get the majority he wants.

:01:08.:01:10.

Otherwise he wouldn't be having the vote.

:01:11.:01:13.

But last night, he was condemned for telling Conservative rebels

:01:14.:01:19.

they should not vote with Jeremy Corbyn and what he called

:01:20.:01:22.

Labour described the remarks as a "contemptible slur".

:01:23.:01:27.

The Labour leader says opposition to war is growing.

:01:28.:01:30.

And that the Prime Minister's proposals didn't stack up.

:01:31.:01:32.

But he's been accused of bullying his own MPs

:01:33.:01:35.

The first British jets could be over Syria as early as tomorrow morning,

:01:36.:01:42.

if as expected, MPs vote in favour of action.

:01:43.:01:44.

The PM has claimed 70,000 supposedly moderate Syrian

:01:45.:01:47.

And what do you, the public, make of it all?

:01:48.:01:56.

One new poll suggests millions of British voters have turned

:01:57.:01:58.

against airstrikes in the last few days, though there's

:01:59.:02:01.

Conservative Foreign Secretary, Malcolm Rifkind, and former Labour

:02:02.:02:18.

MPs will spend over 10 hours debating the military,

:02:19.:02:31.

moral and political case for striking IS targets in Syria,

:02:32.:02:33.

culminating in a vote at around about 10 o'clock tonight.

:02:34.:02:38.

A vote which David Cameron is expected to win.

:02:39.:02:43.

We can't hide from these people, we can't pull the quilt over our heads.

:02:44.:02:54.

They have killed British citizens in Sousse in Tunisia, we have thwarted

:02:55.:02:58.

seven Isil inspired or Isil directed terrorist plots on the streets

:02:59.:03:02.

The Russian plane that was downed at Sharm el-Sheikh, almost certainly by

:03:03.:03:09.

an Isil bomb, could easily have been a British plane carrying British

:03:10.:03:12.

They are going after us and the only way we can protect

:03:13.:03:18.

ourselves is fighting back, hitting back at them, degrading

:03:19.:03:20.

them, reducing their capacity to plan and plot attacks against us.

:03:21.:03:37.

The Prime Minister will almost certainly win his vote but has there

:03:38.:03:42.

been a sense that arguments have been slipping away from him? I don't

:03:43.:03:47.

think so. When you come to a point of decision, some people who are

:03:48.:03:51.

undecided are a bit nervous about committing themselves to something

:03:52.:03:54.

that will involve loss of life, that is a natural human reaction. The

:03:55.:04:01.

public also appreciate this is the UK joining the rest of the

:04:02.:04:03.

international community who are already carrying out this exercise

:04:04.:04:07.

and is no conceivable argument for saying it is proper to bomb Isis in

:04:08.:04:14.

Iraq but not the same in Syria when Isis themselves don't recognise a

:04:15.:04:19.

border between the countries. The Prime Minister has been trying to

:04:20.:04:23.

build a big majority. He has been conciliatory towards those on the

:04:24.:04:30.

other side who have some doubts. It didn't help when he decided to

:04:31.:04:33.

describe some of the people who don't agree with him as terrorist

:04:34.:04:39.

sympathisers. I think he realises that themselves, it was an

:04:40.:04:43.

unfortunate comment that came out, which was not appropriate and eyes

:04:44.:04:46.

as Becky will be the first to acknowledge that. -- I suspect. Some

:04:47.:04:53.

Labour MPs seem to be under some pretty unpleasant pressure.

:04:54.:04:58.

Absolutely and it is disgusting, I bought is happening. Why has this

:04:59.:05:05.

become so toxic in the Labour Party? Sadly the whole issue has become

:05:06.:05:11.

about Jeremy Corbyn, the leadership of the party, rather than focusing

:05:12.:05:19.

on this most serious issues. Both parties are divided to some extent,

:05:20.:05:23.

the Tories left so but they have their rebels also. Labour seem to be

:05:24.:05:28.

deeply divided on this, all over the place. Indeed, you could say that.

:05:29.:05:34.

It is right to say there are passions on both sides of the

:05:35.:05:39.

argument which is understandable and absolutely right because it is so

:05:40.:05:43.

serious. But what is a disgrace is the way people are being harried and

:05:44.:05:48.

threatened by colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party but also

:05:49.:05:50.

by party members up and down the country. Do you think this will, in

:05:51.:05:55.

the end, come to an issue for some MPs, to put it another way, are you

:05:56.:06:01.

aware of Labour MPs who are frightened of facing deselection as

:06:02.:06:06.

a result of positions they might take? Yes, I am, and I feel

:06:07.:06:11.

especially for those new members of the House of Commons. People who

:06:12.:06:16.

have been there for five or ten years, their skins tend to be

:06:17.:06:20.

thicker but for new members it is a very... It is very difficult. They

:06:21.:06:26.

are under pressure. It is hard to see how Labour puts itself together

:06:27.:06:30.

after this. If you work on the assumption that how Mr Corbyn has

:06:31.:06:33.

handled the event is how he will handle things in the future. There

:06:34.:06:38.

are some wise people in the party who I hope will be working with him

:06:39.:06:43.

and counselling him and there are people like Hilary Benn who clearly

:06:44.:06:46.

take a different view to Jeremy Corbyn but I know that Hillary and

:06:47.:06:51.

many people around Jeremy, what they want to do is ensure that is a

:06:52.:06:56.

culture of respect after this vote. Whichever way people vote, they

:06:57.:06:59.

should respect the opinions of others. In reality, what is at stake

:07:00.:07:06.

today is a technical shift, a tactical shift, and yet it has

:07:07.:07:12.

become one of these great occasions of Parliament. It is a huge vote, if

:07:13.:07:18.

the government was to lose, it could well fall. How have we come to this?

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How has a military shift, with us already bombing in Iraq, how has

:07:25.:07:30.

this become such a totemic issue? Because the government was defeated

:07:31.:07:37.

two years ago. Not on an identical vote but something sufficiently

:07:38.:07:40.

similar that this would be seen as a reversal of that position. When the

:07:41.:07:44.

House of Commons did that, it had a big impact around the world. You

:07:45.:07:47.

have to think back to the 1930s when Oxford union students said they

:07:48.:07:52.

would not fight for King and country and everybody said that was

:07:53.:07:56.

decadent. The people who voted against the government two years ago

:07:57.:08:01.

were not in that situation but it had real damage intervals of our

:08:02.:08:04.

diplomatic clout oversees. And if we all agree that the ultimate solution

:08:05.:08:08.

is not just the destruction of Islamic State but a political

:08:09.:08:12.

solution to the Civil War in Syria, Britain must be part of that

:08:13.:08:16.

initiative. You cannot opt out of the military component and expects

:08:17.:08:19.

to have weight when the diplomacy is to be addressed. Have you come to a

:08:20.:08:25.

view on this issue? I'm glad I don't have to vote on this. It finally

:08:26.:08:31.

balanced but I come down against air strikes in the end. Because? The

:08:32.:08:38.

arguments which are put about the need to have ground forces from the

:08:39.:08:44.

region, the fact that the Prime Minister says there are 70,000

:08:45.:08:48.

people who will be those ground forces, I am not sure they would be

:08:49.:08:53.

a coherent force. Yes, air strikes together with ground forces have

:08:54.:08:57.

worked in Iraq but the situation is very different, there is a standing

:08:58.:09:01.

army and a government that invited people in. The ground Force issue is

:09:02.:09:05.

extremely important and what also bothers me, many if the potential

:09:06.:09:11.

ground forces are people who are, understandably, fighting against

:09:12.:09:16.

President Assad. And the Russians are fighting against those forces.

:09:17.:09:19.

We are getting into very deep waters. The potential ground forces

:09:20.:09:26.

are seen by many as a nonsense. There are two groups of anti-Assad

:09:27.:09:32.

rebels who are not Islamic State. One is in the south, the other in

:09:33.:09:37.

the North and they have divided into 50 or 60 different groups, no way

:09:38.:09:41.

are they a coherent force. But there is an answer to what we have been

:09:42.:09:48.

saying. Air power, even in northern Syria, has already helped because

:09:49.:09:52.

the Kurds, for example, were able to hold on to Kobani, which Islamic

:09:53.:09:58.

State would desperate to get, and they were prevented a combination of

:09:59.:10:03.

the Kurds on the ground and air power. You have chosen the one group

:10:04.:10:10.

that is coherent! That is the Kurds and they are very geographically

:10:11.:10:16.

specific. There is no disagreement that in the rest of the Islamic

:10:17.:10:21.

State area, you will not drive them out of territory by air power alone.

:10:22.:10:25.

The problem we are to address is that will not be resolved overnight

:10:26.:10:32.

-- have two address. So do we leave Isis untouched in their own main

:10:33.:10:37.

command centres? It is not just bombing individuals, it is their

:10:38.:10:44.

convoys, for example. With respect to you, that was not the question.

:10:45.:10:51.

My question was, do you accept that the so-called 70,000 ground forces

:10:52.:10:55.

that the Prime Minister has mentioned can be in no way regarded

:10:56.:11:00.

as a coherent force? They are certainly not a coherent force. If

:11:01.:11:05.

you add up the various resistance groups, there are 70000 and some are

:11:06.:11:07.

quite effective, for example Kneer the Jordanian border. -- near the

:11:08.:11:16.

Jordanian border. They have had local victories but you are right. I

:11:17.:11:20.

hope the government does not think there is a single body of 70,000

:11:21.:11:24.

that can be used at this moment. Let's remind ourselves what MPs will

:11:25.:11:31.

be voting on and debating later and how does the Parliamentary

:11:32.:11:35.

arithmetic add up. We won't know the exact numbers until after the vote.

:11:36.:11:38.

The motion before the Commons today starts by saying so-called

:11:39.:11:43.

Islamic State poses a "direct threat to the United Kingdom".

:11:44.:11:46.

It notes that "military action is only one component

:11:47.:11:49.

of a broader strategy to bring peace and stability to Syria".

:11:50.:11:52.

Specific reference is made to "requests from France, the US,

:11:53.:11:58.

and regional allies for UK military assistance".

:11:59.:12:02.

And the motion reiterates the government's commitment

:12:03.:12:06.

"not to deploy UK troops in ground combat operations".

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Finally it provides that the House supports military action,

:12:12.:12:15.

"specifically air strikes, exclusively against Isil in Syria",

:12:16.:12:20.

and offers wholehearted support to the British armed forces.

:12:21.:12:24.

In 2013 the government lost a vote to bomb forces in Syria loyal

:12:25.:12:27.

As a result, David Cameron's been reluctant to bring forward

:12:28.:12:33.

a new vote in the current climate because of the risk of losing,

:12:34.:12:37.

but he's confident that support has been "growing" and he can win now.

:12:38.:12:42.

We won't know the exact voting breakdown until after the vote,

:12:43.:12:49.

but it appears that between ten to 15 of the Conservatives' 330 MPs

:12:50.:12:52.

will defy the Prime Minister and oppose air strikes.

:12:53.:12:59.

Figures this morning suggested around 50 of Labour's 231 MPs would

:13:00.:13:05.

support the government, but the BBC has learned Jeremy Corbyn's team are

:13:06.:13:07.

now assuming around 90 Labour MPs will vote for the motion.

:13:08.:13:15.

The SNP have signalled that their 54 MPs still taking the party

:13:16.:13:18.

But the Liberal Democrats and the DUP with eight MPS each will

:13:19.:13:23.

Let's talk now to the Conservative MP, John Baron,

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John Baron, you are going to vote against air strikes, how did you

:13:29.:13:42.

feel being described by the Prime Minister as a terrorist sympathiser?

:13:43.:13:48.

I will not come at a private meeting but having served in Northern

:13:49.:13:52.

Ireland as a platoon commander, those who vote against air strikes

:13:53.:13:56.

are not terrorist sympathisers -- I cannot comment. Did you think that

:13:57.:14:02.

language was appropriate and helpful when we are talking about issues

:14:03.:14:06.

this serious? There has been a lot of emotive language, I have been

:14:07.:14:10.

called a pacifist and I have the medals to prove I am not. There have

:14:11.:14:17.

been various accusations. We have to have an informed debate, respect the

:14:18.:14:21.

views of each other, there are no easy decisions in foreign policy,

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there are hard choices. Respect each other and use the language

:14:26.:14:29.

accordingly and if we can't do that, there is something sad, particularly

:14:30.:14:33.

when we are accused of playing politics or personalities. I have

:14:34.:14:38.

consistently opposed international intervention in Iraq and Helmand and

:14:39.:14:42.

Libya and indeed two years ago so this is a matter for me of

:14:43.:14:49.

conscience. And for you, Caroline Flint? Firstly I agree with

:14:50.:14:57.

everything John has just said. For myself and others, this is really

:14:58.:15:00.

difficult, the most serious decision you make is about putting our

:15:01.:15:04.

service men and women into a combat situation whether from the air or

:15:05.:15:08.

the ground. I have gone to several meetings since the statement last

:15:09.:15:11.

week to find out more and I have come down in favour of supporting

:15:12.:15:16.

the air strikes, the extension of our activity in Syria similar to

:15:17.:15:17.

Iraq. That is against what the Labour

:15:18.:15:25.

Party leader Jeremy Corbyn has said. Talking about respect, what has

:15:26.:15:29.

happened to respecting each other's views in the Houses of Parliament.

:15:30.:15:32.

Caroline Flint, have you come under pressure from some in your own party

:15:33.:15:35.

that you would have blood on your hands if you vote in favour of the

:15:36.:15:42.

Government's proposal? None of my party colleagues have said that to

:15:43.:15:46.

me but like a number of my colleagues I have received via

:15:47.:15:51.

social media and e-mails views that are against us supporting the Prime

:15:52.:15:55.

Minister today expressed in language which I think is intolerant and

:15:56.:15:59.

unhelpful. I know that other colleagues have received even

:16:00.:16:03.

worse. It is really important that there is an understanding and

:16:04.:16:07.

respect in this debate. Just to say about the Prime Minister, I think he

:16:08.:16:12.

should apologise for what he is alleged to have said in this

:16:13.:16:15.

meeting. It is completely unhelpful and I say that as someone who will

:16:16.:16:22.

support the Government's motion. Do you think he should apologise, John

:16:23.:16:29.

Baron? I've said my piece, I've made it clear that having served on the

:16:30.:16:32.

streets of Northern Ireland you can vote for air strikes and not be a

:16:33.:16:37.

terrorist sympathiser -- boat against air strikes. What about an

:16:38.:16:42.

amendment in the debate? Can you tell us about that? It is saying

:16:43.:16:47.

that the case for intervention, for war if you like, has not been made.

:16:48.:16:51.

It is broad enough and short enough so that it welcomes anybody from all

:16:52.:16:54.

sides of the house. And there are many of us who have deep concerns

:16:55.:16:59.

about the line that the Government is taking. The central case is we do

:17:00.:17:03.

not have an adamant, realistic long-term strategy, both military

:17:04.:17:08.

and non-military, which includes an exit strategy. That absence featured

:17:09.:17:14.

in our previous interventions in Iraq and in Helmand, in Libya, and

:17:15.:17:19.

would have done two years ago when the Government was asked whether it

:17:20.:17:25.

would side with the rebels. Without the long-term comprehensive strategy

:17:26.:17:28.

and including the exit strategy we are deeply concerned about this,

:17:29.:17:32.

particularly when you can't even identify the local ground forces

:17:33.:17:34.

that will have to take the ground at the end of the day. Caroline, why

:17:35.:17:38.

have you come to the conclusion that it will have a material impact on

:17:39.:17:44.

Isis in Syria? Of course, I don't believe that by extending activity

:17:45.:17:48.

to include air strikes that that is going to get rid of Isil in and of

:17:49.:17:52.

itself, or for that matter solve the problem the Civil War in Syria. But

:17:53.:17:58.

what I do believe is this: I voted 14 months ago to support air strikes

:17:59.:18:01.

in Iraq to tackle the Isil forces there. In Syria we are already

:18:02.:18:06.

supplying intelligence to allow others to pinpoint their air

:18:07.:18:11.

strikes, refuelling and other logistical support as well. Given

:18:12.:18:14.

that we know that Isil doesn't recognise any borders on this I feel

:18:15.:18:18.

that the extension of our activity to support air strikes in the way we

:18:19.:18:23.

have been doing in Iraq, I just think it doesn't make sense not to.

:18:24.:18:28.

If you are against air strikes in Syria people should say they are

:18:29.:18:31.

against what we are doing in Iraq as well. That is the truth of the

:18:32.:18:34.

debate. Thank you for joining us. I will let you go into the chamber.

:18:35.:18:41.

Thanks, Joe Cole. Malcolm Rifkind, other than the symbolic act of

:18:42.:18:45.

showing solidarity with our allies, what is British bombing in Surrey

:18:46.:18:49.

achieve? Specific military point that Britain has certain specific

:18:50.:18:54.

munitions called Brimstone, which are impressive at pinpointing the

:18:55.:18:58.

enemy and not having the same likelihood of creating collateral

:18:59.:19:01.

damage and innocent people being killed. How many missiles do we have

:19:02.:19:05.

of this type? I don't have the specific number. Maybe it does

:19:06.:19:10.

because there are reports we don't have many. That is part of the wider

:19:11.:19:14.

problem of the defence budget. That it is not a significant capability.

:19:15.:19:20.

That is not what our allies believe. King Husein of Jordan this morning

:19:21.:19:23.

wrote in the Daily Telegraph saying Britain is needed as part of the

:19:24.:19:26.

international effort. He's bound to want that, they would all want that,

:19:27.:19:29.

they want all the Allies they can get. It is also the case that the

:19:30.:19:36.

typhoons we are deploying along with the tornadoes cannot carry the

:19:37.:19:40.

Brimstone missile. That's as may be. You mentioned the Brimstone. I'm

:19:41.:19:47.

putting the point that this is not the magical weapon the Government

:19:48.:19:50.

has made it out to be. These are your words and not mine. The asked

:19:51.:19:54.

me in the initial question was there any specific military benefit the

:19:55.:19:59.

edited kingdom -- the United Kingdom can bring. They will bring these

:20:00.:20:04.

missiles. We don't know how many. The Royal Air Force will know and

:20:05.:20:08.

that is enough for me. You say it has a pinpoint capability but we now

:20:09.:20:13.

know that the IS in Raqqa has now disbursed through the buildings.

:20:14.:20:18.

They haven't got headquarters. They have dispersed themselves into the

:20:19.:20:21.

population. The Brimstone missile is irrelevant in that situation. Your

:20:22.:20:25.

conclusion does not match your initial statement. You are assuming

:20:26.:20:29.

that the only bombing that will take place is in Raqqa, areas occupied by

:20:30.:20:33.

civilians. Some of the prime time gets we will be going for, I assume,

:20:34.:20:38.

and I'm sure I'm right, will for example be convoys carrying fuel,

:20:39.:20:41.

convoys carrying munitions that have to go back and forward in northern

:20:42.:20:47.

Iraq. The Americans are doing that already. They took out 180 of them,

:20:48.:20:52.

why does it need the British? We are going to spend a ?100,000 Brimstone

:20:53.:20:57.

missile to take out a fuel tanker? What we are saying is this is an

:20:58.:21:00.

international effort. The United Kingdom does not franchise out the

:21:01.:21:07.

defence of this country. If we see that Isis is a threat to the United

:21:08.:21:12.

Kingdom and there is an international effort approved by the

:21:13.:21:15.

United Nations supported by France, the United States, Russia and a

:21:16.:21:18.

whole host of other countries the idea that the United Kingdom would

:21:19.:21:23.

say let them do it on our behalf because they are making an effort

:21:24.:21:26.

and save the money and do it for another purpose, you don't believe

:21:27.:21:29.

that yourself and neither do most people. Isn't the stronger case that

:21:30.:21:34.

the French have asked us to join them? Mr Hollande made a direct plea

:21:35.:21:39.

to British Parliament, that Mr Obama in the United States would like us

:21:40.:21:42.

to do the same, the King of Jordan has joined this morning, these are

:21:43.:21:48.

our allies, and we would expect them to come to our aid when we needed. .

:21:49.:21:52.

We have a duty to go to their aid when we have asked for it -- they

:21:53.:21:56.

have asked for it? Solidarity is important but as has been said in

:21:57.:22:00.

the debate so far we are doing a lot on the ground to supply whatever the

:22:01.:22:08.

military there is doing, supplying humanitarian aid and we are doing a

:22:09.:22:12.

lot already. It's important that when people look at the whole

:22:13.:22:19.

strategy and situation and people have to be absolutely certain that

:22:20.:22:25.

the political situation is there, the ground forces on the ground are

:22:26.:22:30.

there and the missiles are in place and I don't think everything is in

:22:31.:22:35.

place. Even the Germans, who have for obvious reasons been reluctant

:22:36.:22:39.

to be involved in any military adventures overseas for 70 years are

:22:40.:22:45.

sending the German navy to the eastern Mediterranean, sending 1500

:22:46.:22:50.

troops and they have moved their reconnaissance and satellite

:22:51.:22:57.

capabilities over the area Mr Hollande is asking. Indeed that they

:22:58.:23:01.

are not making air strikes, that's the important distinction. In

:23:02.:23:06.

response to the discussion you had with Malcolm Rifkind earlier, I

:23:07.:23:10.

think I heard on the radio this morning that Isis is moving some of

:23:11.:23:15.

its strategic headquarters to Libya, so what does that mean? Are we

:23:16.:23:20.

supposed to... We have already bombed Libya! Are we supposed to

:23:21.:23:27.

bomb it again? That was my point. It is unlikely we are going to move

:23:28.:23:32.

focus to Libya. The core area of Isas has been northern Iraq and more

:23:33.:23:38.

recently Syria. -- Isis. They have some operations in other countries

:23:39.:23:40.

but that doesn't alter the fact that the so-called caliphate requires to

:23:41.:23:44.

control large amounts of territory to give it credibility. It is only

:23:45.:23:50.

by denying Isis in its heart mind, Syria and northern Iraq, that we

:23:51.:23:55.

will remove the scourge from the problem we face. Is it not

:23:56.:23:59.

inevitable, contrary to what the parliament was asked to vote two

:24:00.:24:04.

years ago that we now have to make common cause with President Assad

:24:05.:24:08.

and the Russians? With the Russians, yes, with Assad no. If the

:24:09.:24:14.

Russians, partly as a result of having lost an aircraft because of

:24:15.:24:17.

the Isis terrorist attack on it, if the Russians are prepared to

:24:18.:24:21.

coordinate, as they say they are with France and presumably other

:24:22.:24:25.

parts of the coalition against Isis, then yes, Russia is a sensible ally.

:24:26.:24:31.

Two or three years ago the Russians helped to remove chemical weapons

:24:32.:24:36.

from Syria and they did it in 24-hour is. Assad was told to go

:24:37.:24:39.

operate with the Russians and he did. That shows the influence the

:24:40.:24:45.

Russians have. Assad goes to the heart of the diplomatic

:24:46.:24:49.

conversations that will have to take place regarding this Syrian Civil

:24:50.:24:55.

War. How can you make common cause with the Russians and not Assad,

:24:56.:24:58.

given he is only there because of the Russians? Assad is not actually

:24:59.:25:03.

fighting Isis. The military conflict between Assad and the Syrian

:25:04.:25:06.

opposition is in other parts of Syria. For his own reasons of

:25:07.:25:10.

self-interest he's happy to leave Isis on touched. How can we be

:25:11.:25:17.

onside with Russia and yet make Assad a deal-breaker, that's not

:25:18.:25:21.

going to work? Assad is not a deal-breaker. You are confusing two

:25:22.:25:25.

separate issues, they are obviously linked at some stage in this ghastly

:25:26.:25:29.

process but they are essentially two issues. There is a question of how

:25:30.:25:32.

to do with the Isis terrorist threat in northern Syria and the quite

:25:33.:25:35.

separate issue, although inevitably it has links, of a political

:25:36.:25:41.

solution, a diplomatic solution to the Syrians of war. Even if Isis

:25:42.:25:44.

disappeared tomorrow the Civil War would continue until there are peace

:25:45.:25:51.

negotiations. So we have a common cause with Russia to deal with the

:25:52.:25:55.

Isis threat from the North. When it comes to the diplomatic solution for

:25:56.:25:58.

the Syrians of a war, that is something which is grindingly slowly

:25:59.:26:02.

making progress, but we have not yet got to the stage of a breakthrough.

:26:03.:26:06.

The Labour leader put a lot of emphasis on the Vienna talks and

:26:07.:26:10.

that there should be some kind of diplomatic negotiated way out of

:26:11.:26:12.

this. With the best will in the world it is hard to see that

:26:13.:26:17.

happening quickly, since it would involve the Assad regime, it would

:26:18.:26:21.

involve the external parties including ourselves, and it would

:26:22.:26:25.

involve all of these militia will stop the only people it wouldn't

:26:26.:26:29.

involve is the Islamic State. At is absolutely right, it is a very slow

:26:30.:26:33.

process and it has been given a timescale of 6-12 months to find a

:26:34.:26:36.

resolution to the problem. It is a slow process and I understand why so

:26:37.:26:40.

much store is put on the political process. We have to do other things

:26:41.:26:45.

in the meantime, such as work with people on the ground. Personally, I

:26:46.:26:52.

think we should be arming the Kurds, for example. I think the Kurds are

:26:53.:26:56.

doing a magnificent job in both Iraq and Syria. But there we get into a

:26:57.:27:02.

complex situation. Perhaps not the British, but the Germans have been

:27:03.:27:06.

helping to arm the Kurds and others have been doing too. Their weapons

:27:07.:27:11.

need to be modernised and so on. I come back to the point I made to

:27:12.:27:14.

Malcolm Rifkind. Even if they were terribly well armed, they have a

:27:15.:27:20.

geo- specific mission. They don't want to go further than the

:27:21.:27:23.

territories around what they regard as Kurdistan. Yes, but I have been

:27:24.:27:30.

talking to some Kurds of late, and I think they may be prepared to go a

:27:31.:27:34.

little further. I think it is worth pursuing these issues. There is an

:27:35.:27:38.

additional point as well, that best remains an area that Isis controls

:27:39.:27:41.

between Raqqa and the Turkish border. The rest of it is controlled

:27:42.:27:45.

by the Kurds. If that particular route could be blocked off, which it

:27:46.:27:50.

ought to be able to without too much military problem, then that is a

:27:51.:27:53.

serious blow to the ability of Isis to get recruits coming through the

:27:54.:27:58.

porous Turkish border. If the Kurds were minded to do more but needed a

:27:59.:28:03.

condition that they wanted a greater Kurdistan recognised that would just

:28:04.:28:08.

create chaos in the region. They will not make that demand because

:28:09.:28:11.

they know it is unrealistic at this moment in time. What they have

:28:12.:28:15.

already achieved by historic standards is an incredible amount of

:28:16.:28:18.

autonomy, both in the Kurdish region of Iraq and increasingly in northern

:28:19.:28:22.

Syria. They will not be pushed out of that area. They know that this

:28:23.:28:27.

will have to be step-by-step if they are going to realise their

:28:28.:28:30.

aspirations. It would throw the cat among the pigeons if the Russians in

:28:31.:28:35.

retaliation for what happened to their jet work to start backing a

:28:36.:28:39.

Kurdistan. The Russians don't have a problem with the Kurds that the

:28:40.:28:46.

Turks do. Exactly. There are lots of curious alliances but we must not

:28:47.:28:50.

lose sight of the main target which is Islamic extremist terrorism which

:28:51.:28:53.

controls a large part of Syria. That is what today is all about, that is

:28:54.:28:58.

why the need for Britain to be part of this international community,

:28:59.:29:01.

which the United Nations resolution gives full authority for, that is

:29:02.:29:08.

something that gives a step forward. Laura Kuenssberg has been across

:29:09.:29:13.

this story from the start. Prime Minister is probably heading for a

:29:14.:29:16.

substantial victory. But it has been a rough 72, 36, 48 hours for him.

:29:17.:29:23.

The terrorists remark at the committee last night, the 70,000

:29:24.:29:28.

troops on the ground figure being widely disparaged. It has not been

:29:29.:29:32.

great. If they held the vote at the end of last week they would

:29:33.:29:35.

certainly have got their numbers at that point in the immediate

:29:36.:29:38.

aftermath of David Cameron making that speech, widely acknowledged to

:29:39.:29:41.

have been very effective and very statesman-like in the House of

:29:42.:29:46.

Commons, particularly in the last 24 hours and overnight there has been a

:29:47.:29:49.

sense of a real scramble, a very tense scramble. On both sides you

:29:50.:29:53.

have had people trying to screw down their supporters. As you say there

:29:54.:29:59.

is a 99.999% chance that the government will get what will feel

:30:00.:30:02.

like a pretty hefty majority on this. But I think there is a sense

:30:03.:30:07.

that as the vote has approached, scrutiny has become more intense,

:30:08.:30:13.

MPs have been agonising over this and in every single political party,

:30:14.:30:17.

we often give MPs a rough ride. In a week like this you see how seriously

:30:18.:30:20.

they take these kinds of decisions. That the case has perhaps become a

:30:21.:30:27.

little bit scratchy around the edges. There is no question about

:30:28.:30:31.

that and as Sir Malcolm referenced, David Cameron will probably feel it

:30:32.:30:34.

would have been better if he had not used the line at the 1922 last night

:30:35.:30:38.

and it was inevitable it would come out. The idea you could say that

:30:39.:30:45.

privately other room of Tory MPs. It is worth remembering, as we

:30:46.:30:47.

discussed in his Conservative Party conference speech, used that line

:30:48.:30:52.

but the campus was so different than pre-Paris and pre-this argument and

:30:53.:30:58.

three being potentially 24 - 36 hours from British jets taking off

:30:59.:31:05.

into the sky. -- canvas. More from the House of Commons now. Shadow

:31:06.:31:14.

Edinburgh secretary is there. We are talking about the arguments that

:31:15.:31:17.

have become much more angry, it feels and much more on the edges, if

:31:18.:31:22.

you like -- energy Secretary. At least 50 or so Labour MPs will vote

:31:23.:31:26.

with the government in favour of air strikes, disappointed by your

:31:27.:31:27.

colleagues who would do that? Not at all. As Laura said, most of

:31:28.:31:37.

us have wrestled hard with this decision. I listened to the Prime

:31:38.:31:42.

Minister last week with an open mind about military action. I was looking

:31:43.:31:47.

for reasons to support him in fact because I accept there is a strong

:31:48.:31:50.

case for taking action in Syria in order to evade Isil and cut them off

:31:51.:31:57.

in their headquarters. But like many of my colleagues, I have come to the

:31:58.:32:01.

conclusion in the last few days that the Prime Minister is not able to

:32:02.:32:05.

provide any kind of concrete strategy about what happens after

:32:06.:32:09.

military air strikes and what happens on the ground. Unless he

:32:10.:32:13.

said something very different in a few minutes time, I'm going to vote

:32:14.:32:17.

against military action because I don't think it will help and

:32:18.:32:21.

potentially, given the lack of clarity about ground troops, it

:32:22.:32:25.

could make it worse. We have discussed the comments of David

:32:26.:32:30.

Cameron last night but Jeremy Corbyn is said to have sparked accusations

:32:31.:32:34.

that he is bullying his MPs by saying there would be no hiding

:32:35.:32:37.

place for those siding with David Cameron. Caroline Flint

:32:38.:32:42.

substantiated reports that she had been targeted on social media and by

:32:43.:32:49.

e-mail by either those in the Parliamentary Labour Party or party

:32:50.:32:51.

members like trying to pressurise MPs to knock back air strikes. What

:32:52.:32:56.

do you say to them? It is right that the debate has become angry and

:32:57.:33:01.

heated and it is a shame because this is not a Black and Whites

:33:02.:33:05.

issue. There are consequences to both action and inaction and I think

:33:06.:33:09.

the point Jeremy was making is that all MPs are to live with their own

:33:10.:33:15.

consciences and go back to the constituencies and look their

:33:16.:33:17.

constituents in the eye and answer them. I have not come under any

:33:18.:33:20.

pressure from anyone about how I vote. He was right to give MPs a

:33:21.:33:26.

free vote on this issue, I would prefer that all MPs had a free vote

:33:27.:33:31.

on this so that Parliament could surface some of these difficult

:33:32.:33:34.

arguments and reach a collective conclusion outside of party

:33:35.:33:38.

politics. We will let you go into the debate because it is starting

:33:39.:33:45.

shortly. It has been fractious, she has not been put under any pressure

:33:46.:33:48.

because she agrees with Jeremy Corbyn. I think in some parts of the

:33:49.:33:54.

Labour Party, fractious is an under estimate. It was a true talk talking

:33:55.:33:59.

to some MPs last night, there is a sense that some of the bonds of

:34:00.:34:05.

trust have been stretched -- it was brutal. It has become extremely

:34:06.:34:11.

intense, stories of bullying. One pro strikes MP recounted an

:34:12.:34:16.

extraordinary exchange with somebody they saw as being in the Corbyn camp

:34:17.:34:21.

who basically said, you start it, we'll finish it. Jeremy Corbyn's

:34:22.:34:31.

office denied this is going on in a deliberate way and that there is any

:34:32.:34:35.

kind of bullying going on but there are many MPs who feel as if there

:34:36.:34:39.

is. This is part of the wider picture of how Jeremy Corbyn wants

:34:40.:34:42.

to involve the membership much more and reach outside Parliament because

:34:43.:34:47.

that is where his power base is. For some MPs, and not all Blairites as

:34:48.:34:54.

they are seen, this is difficult to come back from and this has changed

:34:55.:34:59.

the Labour Party in the last few days, it has become very serious.

:35:00.:35:04.

Let's dip into the House of Commons as it prepares for this debate. As

:35:05.:35:09.

you can seek it is a house, no try ministers questions today. -- Prime

:35:10.:35:17.

Minister's Questions. The benches are full, a big air of anticipation.

:35:18.:35:22.

The Prime Minister will open for the government and give the case as he

:35:23.:35:27.

sees it for extending the RAF bombing from Iraq into Syria and he

:35:28.:35:31.

will be followed by the Leader of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn, who

:35:32.:35:35.

will give the case against doing so. We will bring you both speeches

:35:36.:35:43.

live, full and uninterrupted. We understand that 157 members have put

:35:44.:35:51.

their names down to the speaker requesting to speak in this debate.

:35:52.:35:56.

As Laura was saying, it has been an issue about which MPs have thought

:35:57.:36:00.

long and hard and they have come to their decisions, or perhaps some

:36:01.:36:07.

will only after the debate. One almost unprecedented Parliamentary

:36:08.:36:09.

procedure will take place which is that the Leader of the Opposition

:36:10.:36:13.

will open for the opposition against the motion of the government but the

:36:14.:36:17.

Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, will close for the opposition

:36:18.:36:21.

and he will be speaking in favour of the motion. I can't remember that

:36:22.:36:26.

happening in my life, even in the days when I was covering Gladstone

:36:27.:36:33.

and Disraeli! It is a big occasion with a lot of MPs wanting to speak

:36:34.:36:38.

on this issue. We understand the Prime Minister is going to speak for

:36:39.:36:43.

quite some time, maybe at 240 minutes, and it could be longer --

:36:44.:36:50.

up to 40 minutes. It could be longer because I imagine he would take a

:36:51.:36:54.

large number of interruptions not just from the Labour side but those

:36:55.:36:58.

on his own side he is yet to convince. And we will also hear from

:36:59.:37:09.

the Scottish Nationalists who will follow. Angus Robertson will speak

:37:10.:37:15.

on their behalf. After the Labour Party, by far the biggest opposition

:37:16.:37:19.

what in Parliament so their voice matters as well. I can't help but

:37:20.:37:27.

notice Hilary Benn sitting there and pondering what is an incredible

:37:28.:37:32.

irony. He is in direct opposition to his leader who of course was one of

:37:33.:37:37.

the strongest adherence of his father's politics. Something very

:37:38.:37:42.

interesting about the two of them. And the brooding presence of Tom

:37:43.:37:46.

Watson who has been such a keep figure in the last few days. -- key

:37:47.:37:55.

figure. Even before a vote has cast, this has stitched the canvas,

:37:56.:38:00.

with big invitations for labour and also for David Cameron. This is his

:38:01.:38:04.

fifth big foreign-policy intervention since being Prime

:38:05.:38:07.

Minister and he is now in a different place. When we discussed

:38:08.:38:12.

the defence review, what ministers say is they believe there should be

:38:13.:38:17.

a new assertiveness in the British attitude to intervening in the rest

:38:18.:38:20.

of the world, that we live in a different place now where the terror

:38:21.:38:25.

threat has modulated and evolved and we must therefore take a different

:38:26.:38:29.

attitude. Although David Cameron wants to take this action and has

:38:30.:38:32.

done for a long time, this is perhaps the start of a new attitude.

:38:33.:38:39.

The beginning of his prime in as the ship was marked by a winding down of

:38:40.:38:44.

operations in Afghanistan. But this will shape him and the Labour Party

:38:45.:38:48.

and of course the SNP and what is going on in Scotland. Hardly a

:38:49.:38:54.

single Scottish MPs will vote for this action. We can go back into the

:38:55.:38:59.

chamber and see what is going on. The debate should have started. It

:39:00.:39:04.

is ten minutes late because they are arguing about whether there should

:39:05.:39:09.

be a two date the bait. The Scottish Nationalists have joined Mr Corbett

:39:10.:39:15.

in asking for that -- eight to date debate -- a two-day debate.

:39:16.:39:28.

There is another point of order taking place. The Scottish

:39:29.:39:34.

Nationalists will be voting with Mr Corbyn on this but I understand the

:39:35.:39:41.

Lib Dems and the DUP are going to side with the government. Indeed and

:39:42.:39:46.

that is one of the reasons why a couple of Tory MPs believe they

:39:47.:39:51.

might win without needing the support of Labour MPs. I think that

:39:52.:39:55.

is optimistic from the government benches, it could be narrow in that

:39:56.:40:03.

situation. But a real change for the Lib Dems. If you think back to the

:40:04.:40:07.

last time there was an occasion like this in Parliament, it was very

:40:08.:40:12.

different, but the Lib Dems build themselves into the mainstream

:40:13.:40:15.

politics through their opposition to the Iraq war. They are now under Mr

:40:16.:40:22.

Farren, who, rightly or wrongly, you would think would be less inclined

:40:23.:40:27.

to support this. What happened? It took them a long time to get to this

:40:28.:40:31.

position, they had hoped for a decision far earlier than when it

:40:32.:40:35.

came at about 9pm last night. The Prime Minister is on his feet as we

:40:36.:40:36.

begin this debate. The question before the house today

:40:37.:40:44.

is how we keep the British people safe from the threat posed by Isil.

:40:45.:40:49.

Let me be clear from the outset. This is not about whether we want to

:40:50.:40:55.

fight terrorism, it is about how best we do that. I respect that

:40:56.:40:59.

governments of all political colours in this country have had to fight

:41:00.:41:03.

terrorism and take the people with them as they do so. I respect people

:41:04.:41:08.

who come to a different view from the government and the one I will

:41:09.:41:12.

set out today and those who vote accordingly and I hope that provides

:41:13.:41:16.

some reassurance to members right across the house. I am happy to give

:41:17.:41:24.

way. I thank the Prime Minister for giving way and he is right in his

:41:25.:41:28.

opening statement to say how important it is to respect opinion

:41:29.:41:32.

on all sides of this house so will the apologise for the marks he made

:41:33.:41:37.

in the meeting last night against Right honourable and honourable

:41:38.:41:41.

friends on this side of the house? I be clearer in my remarks, I respect

:41:42.:41:46.

people who disagree, I respect the fact that governments of all colours

:41:47.:41:51.

have had to fight terrorism and I respect we are all discussing how to

:41:52.:41:54.

fight terrorism, not whether to fight it. In moving this motion,...

:41:55.:42:04.

Mr Speaker... The Prime Minister is clearly not at this stage giving

:42:05.:42:11.

way. He has the floor. I will take dozens of interventions in the time

:42:12.:42:15.

I have, I am conscious of not taking up too much time with similar people

:42:16.:42:19.

wanting to speak I will give way a lot in my speech. Let me make some

:42:20.:42:23.

progress at the start. In moving this motion I am not pretending that

:42:24.:42:28.

the answers are simple. The situation in Syria is incredibly

:42:29.:42:33.

complex. I'm not overstating the contribution that our incredible

:42:34.:42:36.

servicemen and women can make and neither am I ignoring the risks of

:42:37.:42:40.

military action. Nor am I pretending that it is any more than one part of

:42:41.:42:46.

the answer. I am absolutely clear that we must pursue a comprehensive

:42:47.:42:50.

strategy that also includes political, diplomatic and

:42:51.:42:54.

humanitarian action. I know that the long-term solution in Syria, as in

:42:55.:42:59.

Iraq, must ultimately be a government that represents all of

:43:00.:43:01.

its people and one that can work with us to defeat the evil

:43:02.:43:06.

organisation of Isil for good. Notwithstanding all of this, there

:43:07.:43:13.

is a simple question at the heart of the debate today. We face a

:43:14.:43:18.

fundamental threat to our security, Isil have brutally murdered British

:43:19.:43:23.

hostages, inspired the worst terrorist attack against British

:43:24.:43:27.

people since 7-7 on the beaches of Tunisia and plotted atrocity after

:43:28.:43:32.

atrocity on the street here at home. Since November last year our

:43:33.:43:36.

security is that is have foiled no fewer than seven different plots

:43:37.:43:39.

against our people so this threat is very real and the question is this:

:43:40.:43:45.

Do we work with our allies to degrade and destroy this threat and

:43:46.:43:49.

go after these terrorists in with their heartlands from where they

:43:50.:43:52.

plot to kill British people or do we sit back and wait for them to attack

:43:53.:43:58.

us? Thank you for giving way to it would be helpful if he could retract

:43:59.:44:02.

his inappropriate comments from last night but will he be reassured that

:44:03.:44:05.

no one on this side of the house will make a decision based on any

:44:06.:44:13.

such remarks, nor will we be threatened from doing what we

:44:14.:44:16.

believe is the right thing, whether those threats come from online

:44:17.:44:22.

activists or indeed from our own dispatch box? I completely agree

:44:23.:44:27.

with the honourable gentleman, everyone in this house should make

:44:28.:44:32.

up their mind on the arguments in this house and there is honour in

:44:33.:44:37.

voting for and honour in voting against. That is the way this house

:44:38.:44:41.

should operate and that is why I wanted to be absolutely clear at the

:44:42.:44:45.

start of my sentence, this is about how we fight terrorism, not whether

:44:46.:44:49.

we do. I will make some progress and then give way. In answering this

:44:50.:44:55.

question, we should remember that 15 months ago, facing the threat from

:44:56.:45:02.

Isil in Iraq, this house voted 524 to 43 to authorise as drugs in Iraq.

:45:03.:45:07.

Since then our brilliant RAF pilots have helped local forces halt the

:45:08.:45:12.

advance of Isil and recovered 30% of the territory they had captured. On

:45:13.:45:16.

Monday spoke to the president of Iraq in Paris and he expects his

:45:17.:45:19.

better Jude for the vital work our forces are doing and yet when plays

:45:20.:45:24.

reach the border with Syria, a border that Isil themselves do not

:45:25.:45:29.

recognised we can no longer act to defend either his country or hours.

:45:30.:45:33.

Even when we know that their headquarters are in Syria and it is

:45:34.:45:38.

from here that many of the plot against our country are formed.

:45:39.:45:45.

The Prime Minister is facing an amendment signed by 110 members of

:45:46.:45:50.

this house from six different political parties. I've examined

:45:51.:45:56.

that list very carefully and I cannot identify a single terrorist

:45:57.:46:02.

sympathiser on that list. Will he now apologise for his deeply

:46:03.:46:08.

insulting remarks? PRIME MINISTER: I've made clear this is about how we

:46:09.:46:12.

fight terrorism and there is honour in any vote that honourable member

:46:13.:46:18.

is make. We possess the capabilities to reduce this threat to our

:46:19.:46:23.

capability. My argument today is we should not wait any longer before

:46:24.:46:28.

doing so. We should answer the call from our allies. The action we

:46:29.:46:32.

propose is legal, it is necessary and it is the right thing to do to

:46:33.:46:38.

keep our country safe. My strong view is that this house should make

:46:39.:46:43.

clear that we will take up our responsibilities, rather than pass

:46:44.:46:46.

them off and put our own national security in the hands of others. I

:46:47.:46:50.

give way to the member for Stratford-upon-Avon. I've just

:46:51.:46:55.

returned from Baghdad and Irbil, where Isil is on the back foot,

:46:56.:47:00.

Ramadi is surrounded, Sinjar has been liberated. The route between

:47:01.:47:05.

Mosul and Raqqa has been cut off but everyone on the ground tells me that

:47:06.:47:08.

unless we attack Isil in Syria there is no point in liberating Mosul or

:47:09.:47:13.

the rest of Iraq because all they will do with is regrouping Syria and

:47:14.:47:17.

come back and attack that country and our country. PRIME MINISTER: My

:47:18.:47:24.

honourable honourable friend makes an important point and it is set out

:47:25.:47:28.

clearly in the UN Security Council that the fact this so-called

:47:29.:47:31.

caliphate exists in Syria and also Iraq is a direct threat to Iraq and

:47:32.:47:35.

the government of Iraq. He talks about some of the better news there

:47:36.:47:38.

has been from Iraq, I would add to that what has happened in Tikrit

:47:39.:47:43.

since that has been taken from Isil. We have seen 70% of the population

:47:44.:47:46.

returning to that city. Later in the debate I'm sure we will talk about

:47:47.:47:51.

the importance of humanitarian aid and reconstruction. That can only

:47:52.:47:54.

work if you have good government in those towns and the absence of Isil

:47:55.:47:59.

or Daesh in those towns. Let's mix in progress and I will take more

:48:00.:48:03.

interventions, including from the different political parties in this

:48:04.:48:06.

house. Mr Speaker, since my statement last week the House had an

:48:07.:48:10.

opportunity to ask questions of our security experts. I rinsed a

:48:11.:48:14.

briefing for all members as well as more detailed briefings for Privy

:48:15.:48:19.

Council members. I spoke to our allies including President Obama,

:48:20.:48:22.

Chancellor Merkel, President Hollande and beat King of Jordan.

:48:23.:48:25.

The king of Jordan Rhodes in the Telegraph today ex-president his

:48:26.:48:34.

wish for Britain to stand with the Allies in dealing with this threat.

:48:35.:48:44.

The King of Jordan. The stress on post-conflict stabilisation and

:48:45.:48:47.

reconstruction. The importance of standing by our allies. The

:48:48.:48:50.

importance of only targeting Isil. Not deploying ground troops in, it

:48:51.:48:55.

operations. The need to avoid civilian casualties. The importance

:48:56.:48:58.

of ceasefires and a political settlement and a commitment to

:48:59.:49:01.

regular updates to this house. I've drawn these points from across the

:49:02.:49:04.

House and put them in the motion, because I want as many as people as

:49:05.:49:08.

possible to feel able to support this action. I give way to the

:49:09.:49:13.

honourable member for Carshalton. I will be supporting him today. But I

:49:14.:49:21.

do think, however, that he needs to apologise for the comments he made

:49:22.:49:24.

in relation to the Labour Party. Could I ask him very specifically in

:49:25.:49:29.

relation to civilian casualties were UK Government is going to do to

:49:30.:49:34.

minimise those? The honourable gentleman raises an important

:49:35.:49:38.

point. In Iraq for a year and three months there have been no reports of

:49:39.:49:41.

civilian casualties related to the strikes that Britain has taken. Our

:49:42.:49:46.

starting point is to avoid civilian casualties altogether. I have

:49:47.:49:50.

argued, and indeed I will argue again today, that our position

:49:51.:49:55.

weapons and the skill of our pilots makes civilian casualties less

:49:56.:49:58.

likely, so Britain being involved in the strikes in Iraq can both be

:49:59.:50:02.

effective in prosecuting the campaign against Isil, but also can

:50:03.:50:08.

help us to avoid civilian casualties as well. Let me give way to the

:50:09.:50:13.

honourable member for Birkenhead. I'm grateful to the Prime Minister.

:50:14.:50:17.

Is he aware that we have press reports that over the recent past

:50:18.:50:22.

60,000 Syrian troops have been murdered by Isil, and our allies

:50:23.:50:28.

have actually waited to attack until after those murderous acts have

:50:29.:50:33.

taken place. And therefore there is a key part in the motion for many of

:50:34.:50:37.

us, which talks about our action will be exclusively against Isil. If

:50:38.:50:45.

Isil are involved in attacking Syrian government troops, will we be

:50:46.:50:50.

bombing I saw in defence of those troops, or will we wait idly by as

:50:51.:50:56.

our allies have done until now, wait for Isil to kill those troops and

:50:57.:51:01.

then for us to bomb. What I would say to the right honourable

:51:02.:51:04.

gentleman, who I have great respect for, the motion says exclusively

:51:05.:51:07.

Isil because that was a promise I made in this house in response to

:51:08.:51:11.

the points made from both sides of the House. And as far as I'm

:51:12.:51:16.

concerned, were ever Isil are, wherever they can be properly

:51:17.:51:20.

targeted that is what we were should do. -- that is what we should do. It

:51:21.:51:26.

is important will make onto the argument about ground troops, in my

:51:27.:51:29.

discussions with the King of Jordan, he made the point that in

:51:30.:51:32.

the south of Syria there is already cooperation between Jordanian

:51:33.:51:37.

government and the French and Americans and Free Syrian Army, but

:51:38.:51:42.

also there is a growing ceasefire between the regime troops and the

:51:43.:51:46.

Free Syrian Army, so they can turn their guns on Isil. That is what

:51:47.:51:51.

I've said, this is an Isil first strategy. They are the threat, they

:51:52.:51:55.

are the ones we should be targeting and this is about our national

:51:56.:51:59.

security. Let me make some progress and then I will take more

:52:00.:52:02.

interventions. I want to address in my remarks the most important points

:52:03.:52:05.

raised and I will take as many interventions as I can. I believe

:52:06.:52:10.

the key questions raised are these: first, good acting in this way

:52:11.:52:13.

increase the risk to our security by making an attack on Britain more

:52:14.:52:18.

likely? Second, does Britain have the capability to make a significant

:52:19.:52:21.

difference? Third, the question asked by a number of members

:52:22.:52:25.

including the honourable member for Gordon, is why don't we increased

:52:26.:52:28.

the level of our air strikes in Iraq to free up capacity amongst other

:52:29.:52:32.

members of the coalition so they can carry out more air strikes in

:52:33.:52:46.

Syria? Fourth, will they really needed to make this operation a

:52:47.:52:49.

success? Fifth, what is the strategy for defeating Isil and securing a

:52:50.:52:51.

lasting political settlement in Syria? And, six, is there a proper

:52:52.:52:53.

reconstruction host conflict stabilisation plan for Syria? In the

:52:54.:52:55.

time I have available I want to try and answer one of these. Let me give

:52:56.:52:58.

way to the honourable member. I thank the Prime Minister for giving

:52:59.:53:02.

away. He will know how members of the party feel when it comes to

:53:03.:53:05.

fighting and dealing with terrorism. And for that there will always be

:53:06.:53:08.

supporting the matter where terrorism raises its head. Turning

:53:09.:53:12.

to the motion, can I ask the Prime Minister if he can guarantee to the

:53:13.:53:16.

House where he indicates that the Government will not deploying UK

:53:17.:53:21.

troops in ground combat operations if it becomes necessary at a later

:53:22.:53:25.

date to do that. Will he come back to the House to seek approval for

:53:26.:53:30.

that? It is not only something I don't want to do, it is something

:53:31.:53:34.

that I think if we did would be a mistake, because the argument was

:53:35.:53:39.

made to us by the Iraqi government that the presence of Western ground

:53:40.:53:44.

troops, that can be a radicalising force, that can be

:53:45.:53:46.

counter-productive and that is our view. That I would say to him and to

:53:47.:53:50.

colleagues behind him who are concerned about this issue, I accept

:53:51.:53:55.

that this means that our strategy takes longer to be successful

:53:56.:53:58.

because we rely on Iraqi ground troops in Iraq, we rely on the

:53:59.:54:03.

patchwork of Free Syrian Army troops there are in Syria. In time we hope

:54:04.:54:08.

for Syrian ground troops from a transitional regime but that takes

:54:09.:54:13.

longer. One of the killer messages that has to come across today is a

:54:14.:54:17.

yes we have a strategy, it's a convex picture and will take time

:54:18.:54:21.

but we are acting in the right way. Let me make one more point before

:54:22.:54:24.

taking more interventions. Before we get onto these things, Mr Speaker, I

:54:25.:54:29.

want to say a word about the terminology we used to describe this

:54:30.:54:33.

evil death cult. Having considered the representations made to me by

:54:34.:54:35.

the honourable member for chilling and listen to many numbers across

:54:36.:54:41.

the House it's time to join our key I France, the Arab league and other

:54:42.:54:45.

members of the international community in using as frequently as

:54:46.:54:48.

possible the terminology Daesh rather than Isil. This evil death

:54:49.:54:54.

cult is neither a true representative of is that nor is it

:54:55.:54:59.

a state. I'm interested to hear what the honourable gentleman says we

:55:00.:55:04.

should use to talk about Daesh but talking about terminology, should

:55:05.:55:06.

heed not take this opportunity withdraw the remarks that he is

:55:07.:55:12.

calling those not voting with him to note a bunch of terrorist

:55:13.:55:16.

sympathisers? Not only is that offensive, it is dangerous and

:55:17.:55:20.

untrue. I've made my views clear about the importance of all of us

:55:21.:55:24.

fighting terrorism and its time to move on. Let me turn to the

:55:25.:55:28.

important questions, and I will take interventions as I go through these

:55:29.:55:32.

questions. First, could acting increased the risk to our security?

:55:33.:55:35.

This is one of the most important questions we have to answer. Privy

:55:36.:55:40.

councils across the House have had a briefing from the chair of

:55:41.:55:42.

independent joint intelligence committee. Obviously I cannot share

:55:43.:55:46.

all of the classified material that I can say this, Paris wasn't just

:55:47.:55:51.

different because it was so close to us, or because it was so horrific in

:55:52.:55:54.

scale. Paris was different because it showed the extent of terror

:55:55.:56:00.

planning from Daesh in Syria and the approach of sending people back from

:56:01.:56:05.

Syria to Europe. This was, if you like, the head of the snake in Raqqa

:56:06.:56:09.

in action. It is not surprising in my view that the judgment of the

:56:10.:56:13.

chair of the joint intelligence committee and the judgment of the

:56:14.:56:15.

director-general of the security service, is that the risk of a

:56:16.:56:20.

similar attack in the UK is real. And that the UK is already in the

:56:21.:56:25.

top tier of countries on Isil's target list. Let me be frank, Mr

:56:26.:56:30.

Speaker. I want make this point and then I will take more interventions.

:56:31.:56:33.

If there is an attack on the UK in the coming weeks or months there

:56:34.:56:37.

will be those who try and save it has happened because of our trikes.

:56:38.:56:40.

I do not believe that would be the case. Daesh have been trying to

:56:41.:56:45.

attack us for the last year as we know from the seven different plots

:56:46.:56:49.

our security services have foiled -- because of our tax. The terrorist

:56:50.:56:54.

level to the UK was raised to severe last August meaning an attack is

:56:55.:56:57.

highly likely from the threat of Daesh. 800 people, including

:56:58.:57:02.

families and children have been radicalised to such an extent they

:57:03.:57:05.

have travelled to this caliphate. The House should be under no

:57:06.:57:10.

illusion, these terrorists plot to kill us and radicalise our children

:57:11.:57:14.

now. They attack us because of who we are not because of what we do.

:57:15.:57:22.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. On these benches we all share the Prime

:57:23.:57:25.

Minister has Mac horror for Daesh and its death cult, and we abhor

:57:26.:57:33.

terrorism. Will he take the opportunity to identify which

:57:34.:57:37.

members of these benches he regards as terrorist sympathisers? Everyone

:57:38.:57:43.

in this house can speak for themselves. When it comes to the

:57:44.:57:48.

risks of military action, the risks of inaction are far greater than the

:57:49.:57:52.

risks of what I propose. Next, there are those who ask whether Britain

:57:53.:57:56.

conducting strikes in Syria will really make a difference. This is a

:57:57.:58:01.

question that came up. Let me make my argument and then I will take his

:58:02.:58:04.

question. This point has been raised in briefing after briefing. I

:58:05.:58:08.

believe we can make a real difference. I told the House last

:58:09.:58:12.

week about our dynamic targeting, about our Brimstone missile is, the

:58:13.:58:16.

raptor pod on our tornadoes and the intelligence gathering work of our

:58:17.:58:20.

Reaper drones. I will not repeat that today but there is another way

:58:21.:58:25.

to put this which I think is equally powerful. In the coalition there is

:58:26.:58:29.

a lot of strike capacity but when it comes to precision strike

:58:30.:58:32.

capability, whether covering Iraq or Syria, last week the whole

:58:33.:58:37.

international coalition had some 26 aircraft available. Eight of those

:58:38.:58:43.

were British tornadoes, so typically the UK actually represents between a

:58:44.:58:46.

quarter and a third of the international coalition's precision

:58:47.:58:52.

bombing capability and we also have about a quarter of the unmanned

:58:53.:58:55.

strike capability flying in the region. So we have a significant

:58:56.:58:58.

proportion of high precision strike capability. That's why this decision

:58:59.:59:03.

is so important. He's been very persistent and I will give way to

:59:04.:59:07.

the honourable gentleman. He's right to sing the praises of the RAF

:59:08.:59:10.

pilots, and my constituent Mike Poole was tragically killed training

:59:11.:59:18.

for the RAF in a tornado in 2012. He has asked specifically this

:59:19.:59:21.

question. Will be a force in northern Iraq, or is the air force

:59:22.:59:26.

in northern Iraq, and if you go into Syria, does it have coalition

:59:27.:59:31.

warning systems in this crowded airspace? Absolutely essential for

:59:32.:59:36.

the safety of our pilots. The honourable gentleman is right to pay

:59:37.:59:48.

this to -- bring up this issue. In terms of our own aeroplanes they

:59:49.:59:55.

have the most advanced systems to make sure they are kept safe. The

:59:56.:00:00.

argument I was making is one reason why members of the international

:00:01.:00:04.

coalition, including Mr Obama and President Hollande who made these

:00:05.:00:07.

points to me personally, they believe British planes would make a

:00:08.:00:10.

real difference in Syria, just as they are already doing in Iraq. I'm

:00:11.:00:17.

grateful for the Prime Minister giving way. It's important in this

:00:18.:00:20.

debate that there is respect across the House. In the spirit of respect,

:00:21.:00:23.

will the Prime Minister who has been asked before apologise. For the slur

:00:24.:00:29.

put on every member of the opposition last night.

:00:30.:00:41.

Either vote is an honourable vote but I is just we get on with the

:00:42.:00:45.

debate that the country wants to his. I've believe this is to answer

:00:46.:00:50.

the next question that some members have asked about why we do not

:00:51.:00:53.

simply increase our level of air strikes in Iraq to free up other

:00:54.:00:58.

coalition capacity for strikes in Syria. We have the capabilities but

:00:59.:01:04.

other members of the coalition want to benefit from and it makes no

:01:05.:01:07.

sense to stop using these capabilities at a border between

:01:08.:01:11.

Iraq and Syria that IS does not recognise or respect. -- Daesh does

:01:12.:01:19.

not recognise. There was a recent incident in which Syrian opposition

:01:20.:01:23.

forces needed urgent support in the fight against Daesh. British

:01:24.:01:28.

Tornados were eight minutes away over the border in Iraq, no one else

:01:29.:01:33.

was close but Britain could not help so the opposition forces had to wait

:01:34.:01:36.

40 minutes in a perilous situation while other forces were scrambled.

:01:37.:01:42.

That sort of De Laet endangers the lives of those fighting Daesh on the

:01:43.:01:47.

ground and does nothing for our reputation -- that sort of delay. I

:01:48.:01:54.

thank him for giving way. Can he understand that, at a time when too

:01:55.:01:59.

many aircraft are chasing too few targets, what concerns many of us is

:02:00.:02:03.

a lack of com preventive strategy both military and non-military

:02:04.:02:10.

including an exit strategy? One of the fundamental differences between

:02:11.:02:13.

Iraq and Syria is you have nearly a million personnel on the government

:02:14.:02:16.

payroll and still we are having trouble pushing Isil act. 70,000

:02:17.:02:23.

moderates in Syria, quite frankly, we risk forgetting the lesson in

:02:24.:02:28.

Libya. What is his reaction to the decision of the Foreign Affairs

:02:29.:02:33.

Committee yesterday that actually the Prime Minister had not

:02:34.:02:36.

adequately addressed our concerns? Let me answer both questions. The

:02:37.:02:42.

second question is perhaps answered by something I am sure the whole

:02:43.:02:45.

house want to join me in which is wishing the honourable member for

:02:46.:02:50.

Ilford South well given his recent illness, who normally is always at

:02:51.:02:55.

the foreign affairs select committee and voting on the basis of the

:02:56.:03:00.

arguments he believes in. Where we disagree is I believe there is a

:03:01.:03:05.

strategy of which military action is only one part. The key answered his

:03:06.:03:11.

question is that we want to seem a new Syrian transitional government

:03:12.:03:16.

whose troops will then be our allies in squeezing out destroying the

:03:17.:03:21.

so-called caliphate altogether. My disagreement with my honourable

:03:22.:03:24.

friend is that I believe we cannot wait for that to happen, the threat

:03:25.:03:30.

is now, Isil-Daesh are planning attacks now. We can act in Syria as

:03:31.:03:35.

we did in Iraq and in doing so we can enhance the long-term security

:03:36.:03:43.

and safety of our country. I first double thank the Prime Minister for

:03:44.:03:46.

that change into another cheap and all members of Parliament because

:03:47.:03:51.

the house for their support. -- change in terminology. Would he join

:03:52.:03:58.

me in urging the BBC to change their policy of not using the word Daesh

:03:59.:04:05.

because it would breach impartiality rules. We are at war with

:04:06.:04:09.

terrorism, we have to be united, will he join me in urging the BBC to

:04:10.:04:15.

review their bizarre policy? I agree with my honourable friend and I have

:04:16.:04:18.

corresponded with the BBC about their use of IS macro, Islamic

:04:19.:04:24.

State, which I think is even worse than either saying so-called I S or

:04:25.:04:31.

Isil but Daesh is clearly an improvement and it is important we

:04:32.:04:36.

all try to use this language. Let me make some progress and I will give

:04:37.:04:39.

way some more. There is a more fundamental answer as to why we

:04:40.:04:42.

should carry out as drugs in Syria ourselves will stop it is Rakip in

:04:43.:04:48.

Syria that is the HQ of this threat -- carry out air strikes. As I have

:04:49.:04:57.

said, it is in Syria were many of the plots against our country are

:04:58.:05:01.

formed so we must act in Syria to deal with these threats ourselves. I

:05:02.:05:05.

thank him for giving way, I would have preferred an apology but I want

:05:06.:05:12.

to discuss the facts. We proposing to be targeting different things

:05:13.:05:15.

than in northern Iraq and I would like to ask him what practical steps

:05:16.:05:21.

will be used to reduce civilian casualties and what sort of target

:05:22.:05:24.

will will be going against which will reduce the terrorist threat to

:05:25.:05:28.

the UK in terms of operations against our citizens? In terms of

:05:29.:05:33.

the sort of targets we can go after, clearly it is the leaders of this

:05:34.:05:38.

death cult itself, the training camps, the communications hub is,

:05:39.:05:43.

those that are plotting against us. As I will argue, the limited action

:05:44.:05:50.

we took against this dame, has already had an impact on Isil-Daesh

:05:51.:05:57.

and that is an important point -- against Husein. We have a policy of

:05:58.:06:04.

wanting zero civilian casualties. One year and three months into these

:06:05.:06:08.

Iraqi operations, we have not had any reports of civilian casualties.

:06:09.:06:14.

I am not standing here saying that there are no casualties in war, of

:06:15.:06:18.

course there are, this is a very difficult situation will stop it is

:06:19.:06:22.

hugely complex and a difficult argument to get across. But at the

:06:23.:06:28.

heart is a simple point, will we in the long-term be safer and better

:06:29.:06:32.

off if we can get rid of this so-called caliphate which is

:06:33.:06:36.

radicalising Muslims, turning people against us and plotting atrocities

:06:37.:06:43.

on the streets of Britain? I'm grateful to my right honourable

:06:44.:06:46.

friend for giving way. Would he agree with me that there are already

:06:47.:06:50.

hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties, those who are

:06:51.:06:57.

thrown off ill beans, burned, decapitated, crucified, who have had

:06:58.:07:03.

to flee Syria -- throne of ill doings. -- throne of the holdings.

:07:04.:07:14.

We want to prevent this from carrying out these ghastly axe.

:07:15.:07:21.

Let me to the question of whether there will be ground forces to make

:07:22.:07:26.

this operation a success are a ghastly acts. Those who say there

:07:27.:07:29.

are not as mini ground troops as we like and not in the right places are

:07:30.:07:34.

correct, we are not feeling with an ideal situation. We should be clear

:07:35.:07:39.

what air strikes alone can achieve. We don't need ground troops to

:07:40.:07:45.

target the supply of oil which they used to fund terrorism or to target

:07:46.:07:48.

their headquarters and infrastructure and supply routes and

:07:49.:07:52.

training facilities. It is clear that air strikes can have an effect

:07:53.:07:58.

with the issue of Khan and Hussein. Irrespective of ground forces, the

:07:59.:08:02.

RAF can do serious damage to the bloody right now to bring terror to

:08:03.:08:05.

our streets and we should give them that support

:08:06.:08:11.

our streets and we should give them capability. How would he was born to

:08:12.:08:18.

the point that since the offensive on Baghdad was blunted by air power,

:08:19.:08:23.

it has changed its tactics and disbursed it forces and particularly

:08:24.:08:28.

in Raqqa, has disbursed it operations into small units which

:08:29.:08:33.

make it into this to attacks from our Tornados? I think what he says

:08:34.:08:39.

is absolutely right, of course they have changed tactics. But that is

:08:40.:08:46.

not an argument for doing nothing, it is an argument for using air

:08:47.:08:52.

strikes where you can but having a longer term strategy to deliver the

:08:53.:08:55.

ground troops through the transition you need. The argument is simple, do

:08:56.:09:02.

we wait for perfection which is a transitional government in Syria, or

:09:03.:09:07.

do we start the work now on the grading and destroying this

:09:08.:09:10.

organisation at the request of our allies and the Gulf states on the

:09:11.:09:14.

knowledge from our security experts that it will make a difference? As I

:09:15.:09:22.

said, the full answer to the question of ground forces cannot be

:09:23.:09:25.

achieved until that is a new Syrian government that represent all the

:09:26.:09:31.

people. It is this new government that will be the natural partners

:09:32.:09:35.

for our forces in defeating Daesh for good but there are some ground

:09:36.:09:39.

forces we can work with in the meantime. Last week I told the

:09:40.:09:45.

house, let me give the explanation, we believe there are around 70,000

:09:46.:09:51.

Syrian opposition fighters who do not belong to extremist groups and

:09:52.:09:55.

with whom we can coordinate attacks on Daesh. The house will appreciate

:09:56.:09:59.

there are some limits on what I can say about them, not least that I

:10:00.:10:03.

cannot risk their safety, who are being targeted daily by the resume

:10:04.:10:10.

or Daesh or both. This is an area of great interest and concern so let me

:10:11.:10:16.

say a little more. The 70,000 is a tent -- estimate from our

:10:17.:10:19.

independent joint intelligence committee based on a detailed

:10:20.:10:23.

analysis updated daily and drawing on a wide range of open source and

:10:24.:10:27.

intelligence. Of these, the majority are from the free Syrian army.

:10:28.:10:33.

Alongside the 70,000 there are some 20,000 Kurdish fighters with whom we

:10:34.:10:38.

can also work. I am not arguing, this is crucial, that all of these

:10:39.:10:44.

70,000 art somehow ideal partners. Some left the Syrian army because of

:10:45.:10:50.

the brutality of Assad and they can play a role in the future of Syria.

:10:51.:10:56.

That is a view taken by the Russians as well who are prepared to talk

:10:57.:11:03.

with these people. I thank him for giving way and the helpful way he

:11:04.:11:08.

has helped colleagues from across the house he spoke about a long-term

:11:09.:11:11.

strategy and a new government in Syria and there is wide agreement on

:11:12.:11:15.

that but possibly more of a challenge with Russia so can he

:11:16.:11:19.

update the house on, say should he has had with President Putin as to

:11:20.:11:24.

the short and longer term prospects for President Assad? I have had

:11:25.:11:30.

these conversations with President Putin on many occasions, most

:11:31.:11:36.

recently in Antalya. Barack Obama had a meeting with him at the

:11:37.:11:39.

climate change conference in Paris. There was an enormous gap between

:11:40.:11:44.

written, America and Saudi Arabia and Russia on the other hand --

:11:45.:11:51.

Britain. We wanted Assad to go instantly, they wanted him to stay

:11:52.:11:55.

at that gap has narrowed and it will narrow further as these vital talks

:11:56.:11:58.

in Vienna get underway. And a point about these talks are some people

:11:59.:12:04.

worry it is a process without an end but the clear ambition of the talks

:12:05.:12:08.

is for a transitional government within six months and a new

:12:09.:12:12.

constitution and fresh sections within 18 months so there is a real

:12:13.:12:16.

momentum behind these talks. That require fresh elections.

:12:17.:12:20.

Was he confirmed the house that alongside any military intervention

:12:21.:12:28.

in Syria that may be authorised to night he remains completely

:12:29.:12:31.

committed to the huge F at which has kept so many people alive by this

:12:32.:12:38.

government in that region? -- the huge humanitarian effort.

:12:39.:12:41.

We will be keeping that other not least with the vital conference in

:12:42.:12:48.

London next year when we will bring together the whole world to make

:12:49.:12:51.

sure we fill the gap in the funding that has not been available. He is

:12:52.:12:59.

presenting his case well, if he had come to the house and asked for a

:13:00.:13:03.

narrow licence to take out Isil's external planning capability and

:13:04.:13:06.

think it would have commanded widespread consent but he is asking

:13:07.:13:10.

for a wider authority and I want to draw him on the difference between

:13:11.:13:14.

Iraq and Syria. There are ground forces in place in Iraq but not in

:13:15.:13:21.

Syria. Can he say more about what ground forces he envisages joining

:13:22.:13:26.

us in the seizure of Raqqa? This goes to the nub of the difficulty of

:13:27.:13:31.

this case. I don't think you can separate taking out the command and

:13:32.:13:37.

control of Isil's operations against the UK or France or elsewhere from

:13:38.:13:45.

the task of degrading and destroying the Daesh caliphate they have

:13:46.:13:52.

created. They are intricately linked and as I argued last week, as long

:13:53.:13:58.

as this so-called caliphate exists, it is a threat to us, not least

:13:59.:14:02.

because it is radicalising Muslims from across the world who are going

:14:03.:14:06.

to fight for that organisation and potentially returning to attack us.

:14:07.:14:11.

On his second question about ground troops, as I explained, there are

:14:12.:14:15.

three parts to this. The things we can do without ground troops, don't

:14:16.:14:19.

underestimate them. The ground could that are there, not ideal, not as

:14:20.:14:22.

men it is radicalising Muslims from across the world who are going to

:14:23.:14:25.

fight for that organisation and potentially returning to attack us.

:14:26.:14:27.

On his second question about ground troops, as I explained, there are

:14:28.:14:29.

three parts to this. The things we can do without ground troops, don't

:14:30.:14:31.

underestimate them. The ground could that are there, not ideal, not as

:14:32.:14:34.

men as we and can work with. The real plan is, as you get a

:14:35.:14:37.

transitional government in Syria that can represent all the Syrian

:14:38.:14:39.

people, there will be more ground troops for us to work with two

:14:40.:14:42.

defeat Daesh and the caliphate which will keep our country safe. I know

:14:43.:14:45.

that takes a long time and it is complex but that is the strategy

:14:46.:14:48.

that we need to start with the first step which is going after these

:14:49.:14:52.

terrorists today. I'm grateful but I think he has to acknowledge that the

:14:53.:14:59.

ground troops which we can work with will be essential for his long-term

:15:00.:15:02.

strategy and at the moment he has not shown to me that, as the defeat

:15:03.:15:08.

Isil, we create a vacuum into which Assad will move and we must fight

:15:09.:15:13.

and other enemy. And the final word, can I give him some motherly advice?

:15:14.:15:19.

If he just got up and said, whoever does not walk with me through the

:15:20.:15:25.

division lobbies is not a terrorist sympathiser, he would improve his

:15:26.:15:26.

standing in this house enormously. I'm very happy to repeat what she

:15:27.:15:35.

said. People who vote in either division lobby do so with honour, I

:15:36.:15:37.

couldn't have been more clear about that. What I would say to her, is if

:15:38.:15:44.

she is saying there are not enough ground troops she's right, if she is

:15:45.:15:48.

saying they are not always in the right places she's right. But the

:15:49.:15:52.

question is, should we act now in order to try and start to turn the

:15:53.:15:56.

tide? Let me make some progress. I will give way to the leader of the

:15:57.:16:01.

SNP in a moment. I want to be clear about the 70,000. That figure

:16:02.:16:04.

doesn't include a further 25,000 extremist fighters in groups which

:16:05.:16:09.

reject political participation and reject coordination with

:16:10.:16:14.

non-Muslims. So, although they fight plaice they cannot and will not be

:16:15.:16:19.

our partners. So, Mr Speaker, there are ground forces that will take the

:16:20.:16:22.

fight to Daesh and in many cases we can work with them and assist them.

:16:23.:16:31.

If we don't act now we should be clear there will be even fewer

:16:32.:16:35.

ground forces over time as Daesh will get even stronger. In my view

:16:36.:16:40.

we simply cannot afford to wait, we have to act now. I give way to the

:16:41.:16:46.

leader of the SNP. I'm grateful for the leader for giving way. Would he

:16:47.:16:50.

clarified for every Member of the House the advice he has been given

:16:51.:16:53.

and others have been given in race into the forces of 70,000? How many

:16:54.:16:58.

are classified as moderate and how many are classified as on the

:16:59.:17:04.

mentalists we could never work with? On the 70,000, the advice I have is

:17:05.:17:07.

that the majority are made up of Free Syrian Army. But of course the

:17:08.:17:12.

Free Syrian Army has different leadership in different parts of the

:17:13.:17:16.

country. 70,000 excludes those extremist groups like al-Nusra that

:17:17.:17:22.

we will not work with. But as I said very clearly I'm not arguing that

:17:23.:17:26.

the 70,000 are ideal partners. Some of them do have views that we don't

:17:27.:17:31.

agree with. But the definition of the 70,000 is those people that we

:17:32.:17:35.

have been prepared to work with and continue to be prepared to work

:17:36.:17:38.

with. Let me make this point again, if we don't take action against

:17:39.:17:43.

Daesh now, the number of ground forces we can work with will get

:17:44.:17:50.

less and less. If we want to end up with a situation where you have the

:17:51.:17:53.

butcher Assad on one side and a stronger Isil on the other side, not

:17:54.:17:58.

acting is one of the things that will bring that about. I give way to

:17:59.:18:02.

my honourable honourable friend. I know from my time in government

:18:03.:18:07.

how long, hard and I just be the Prime Minister thinks about these

:18:08.:18:10.

questions. But, will he ensure that we complete the military aspect of

:18:11.:18:16.

this military campaign so that we can get onto the really but perhaps

:18:17.:18:20.

most ethical aspect of the questions he has posed, the post-conflict

:18:21.:18:23.

stabilisation and reconstruction of Syria? Without this early stage

:18:24.:18:28.

there will not be a Syria to reconstruct? I think my Right

:18:29.:18:32.

Honourable honourable friend who always thought about these things

:18:33.:18:35.

carefully is right. That is the end goal. We shouldn't take our eyes off

:18:36.:18:40.

the prize, which is a reconstructed Syria that can represent all the

:18:41.:18:44.

people, a Syria at peace so we don't have the migration crisis, the

:18:45.:18:48.

terrorism crisis, that's the goal. Let me return to the overall

:18:49.:18:52.

strategy. I set this out in the House last week. Counterterrorism,

:18:53.:19:00.

counter extremism, political and diplomatic processes and vital

:19:01.:19:02.

humanitarian work my Right Honourable honourable friend

:19:03.:19:06.

referred to. Our counterterrorism strategy gives Britain can Prince of

:19:07.:19:09.

plan to prevent and foil plots at home and also prevent deep poisonous

:19:10.:19:13.

extremist ideology that is the root cause of the threat we face. I can

:19:14.:19:18.

announce we will establish a comprehensive review to root out any

:19:19.:19:22.

remaining funding of extremism within the UK. This will examine

:19:23.:19:26.

specifically the nature, scale and origin of the funding of Islamist

:19:27.:19:31.

extremism activity in the UK, including any overseas sources. It

:19:32.:19:34.

will report to myself and Right Honourable honourable friend the

:19:35.:19:38.

Home Secretary next spring. I want to make this point before giving

:19:39.:19:42.

way. There are some who express military action is in some way

:19:43.:19:48.

capable of undermining our counter extremism strategy by radicalising

:19:49.:19:51.

British Muslims. Let me tackle this head on, British Muslims are

:19:52.:19:59.

appalled by Daesh. These women rake raping, murderous monsters are

:20:00.:20:01.

hijacking the peaceful religion of Islam for their ends. As the King of

:20:02.:20:09.

Jordan says, these people are not Muslims, they are outlaws from

:20:10.:20:12.

Islamabad must stand without Muslim Friends of Labour and around the

:20:13.:20:15.

world as they reclaim their religion from beast terrorists. Far from an

:20:16.:20:21.

attack on Islam, we are engaged in a defence of Islam. And far from the

:20:22.:20:27.

risk of radicalising British Muslims by acting, failing to act would be

:20:28.:20:30.

to betray British Muslims and the wider religion of Islam in its very

:20:31.:20:40.

hour of need. The Prime Minister said that they would fight all the

:20:41.:20:46.

time in this country. Why don't the Iranians, the Saudis, the Turks, why

:20:47.:20:50.

do they not fight these people? Why has it always got to be us who fight

:20:51.:20:57.

them? The Turks are taking part in this action and urging us to do the

:20:58.:21:01.

same. The Saudis are taking part in this action and urging us to do the

:21:02.:21:05.

same. The Jordanians have taken part in this action and urge us to do the

:21:06.:21:10.

same. I have here quote after quote from leader after leader in the Gulf

:21:11.:21:13.

world making and pleading with Britain to take part to take the

:21:14.:21:18.

fight to this death cult that threatens us all so much. The second

:21:19.:21:23.

part of the strategy is support for the diplomatic and political

:21:24.:21:26.

process. Let me say a word about how this process can lead to ceasefires

:21:27.:21:30.

between the regime and opposition so essential for the next stages of

:21:31.:21:34.

this political transition. It begins with identifying the right people to

:21:35.:21:40.

put around the table. We expect a Syrian Bell a team of people to

:21:41.:21:43.

negotiate under the auspices of the United Nations. Over the last 18

:21:44.:21:47.

months political and armed opposition have confirmed Eddie

:21:48.:21:53.

Macken the -- have converged and we will arrange a meeting for

:21:54.:21:56.

opposition representatives in Riyadh and the United Nations will take

:21:57.:21:59.

forward discussions on steps towards a ceasefire, including at the next

:22:00.:22:03.

meeting of the international Syrian support group that we expect to take

:22:04.:22:08.

place before Christmas. The aim is clear, a transitional government

:22:09.:22:11.

within six months, the new constitution and free elections

:22:12.:22:14.

within 18 months, so I would argue that the key elements of a deal are

:22:15.:22:18.

emerging. Ceasefires, opposition groups coming together, the regime

:22:19.:22:23.

looking at negotiation, the key players, America, Russia, Saudi

:22:24.:22:28.

Arabia and Iran and Chiriches no players -- key regional players like

:22:29.:22:34.

Turkey. Negotiation helps this process which is the eventual goal.

:22:35.:22:40.

Does the Prime Minister agree with me that the murders on the beach in

:22:41.:22:45.

Tunisia and the carnage in Paris on the 13th of November changes

:22:46.:22:50.

everything. And British people would find it rather odd that it would

:22:51.:22:55.

take something more than that for Britain to stand shoulder to

:22:56.:22:59.

shoulder with a number of other countries and take on Daesh? My

:23:00.:23:03.

honourable honourable friend speaks for many of us, they attack us for

:23:04.:23:09.

who we are, not because of what we do and they want to attack us again

:23:10.:23:14.

and again. Do we answer the call of our allies, some of our closest

:23:15.:23:18.

friends in the world, the French and Americans, who want us to join with

:23:19.:23:22.

them and their Arab partners in this work, or do we ignore the call? And

:23:23.:23:26.

if we ignore the call, think what that says about Britain as an ally.

:23:27.:23:31.

Inc what it says to the countries in the region who ask themselves if

:23:32.:23:34.

Britain won't come to the aid of France, it's neighbour in these

:23:35.:23:40.

circumstances, just how reliable neighbour, honourable friend and

:23:41.:23:45.

ally this country is. Let me talk about humanitarian relief and longer

:23:46.:23:50.

term stabilisation. I said last week the report for refugees in the

:23:51.:23:55.

region and the extra ?1 billion we have committed to Syria's

:23:56.:23:58.

reconstruction and the broad international alliance we would work

:23:59.:24:03.

with in the rebuilding phase. But Mr Speaker, let us be clear and my

:24:04.:24:06.

honourable honourable friend for Dorset North made this clear, people

:24:07.:24:10.

will not return to Syria if part of it is under the control of an

:24:11.:24:14.

organisation that enslaves Yazidis, throws gay people off buildings,

:24:15.:24:17.

behead aid workers and forces children to marry before they are

:24:18.:24:22.

even ten years old. We cannot separate the humanitarian work and

:24:23.:24:27.

the reconstruction work from dealing with Daesh itself. I'm grateful for

:24:28.:24:33.

the Prime Minister for giving way and welcome any comments that

:24:34.:24:39.

distance British Muslims and Muslims in Scotland from Daesh and I welcome

:24:40.:24:43.

the use of that terminology. I ask the question as a new Member of the

:24:44.:24:47.

House, looking to seasoned Parliamentary members who have been

:24:48.:24:51.

in the House for some time as new members do on such occasions. Given

:24:52.:24:54.

the language used would be seen as unbecoming of a parliamentarian, for

:24:55.:25:01.

the benefit of new members would the Prime Minister withdraw his remarks

:25:02.:25:03.

in relation to terrorist sympathisers? What I would say is I

:25:04.:25:08.

think everyone is focused on the main issues in front of us and that

:25:09.:25:12.

is what we should be focusing on. Let me turn to the plan for

:25:13.:25:35.

post-conflict reconstruction to support a new Syrian government when

:25:36.:25:37.

it emerges. I've said we would be prepared to commit ?1 billion to

:25:38.:25:39.

Syria's reconstruction. The initial priorities would be protection,

:25:40.:25:41.

security, stabilisation and confidence building measures,

:25:42.:25:42.

including meeting basic humanitarian needs such as education, health and

:25:43.:25:44.

shelter and helping refugees to return. Over time the focus would

:25:45.:25:47.

shift, the longer term rebuilding of Syria's shattered infrastructure,

:25:48.:25:48.

harnessing the expertise of the international financial institutions

:25:49.:25:50.

and the private sector. As I said last week, we're not in the business

:25:51.:25:53.

of trying to dismantle the Syrian state or its institutions. We would

:25:54.:25:58.

aim to allocate reconstruction funds against a plan agreed between a new

:25:59.:26:02.

inclusive Syrian government and the international community wants the

:26:03.:26:04.

conflict had ended. That is the absolute key. I will take the

:26:05.:26:09.

honourable member here and there and bring it to a close. Prime Minister,

:26:10.:26:15.

what matters to my constituents is whether they will be safer after

:26:16.:26:18.

this process has taken place. He's making a strong case that we are

:26:19.:26:21.

attacking the heart of this terrorist organisation. Will he

:26:22.:26:26.

assure the House, as well as taking action in Syria, you will also shore

:26:27.:26:30.

up services, security services and policing, in the United Kingdom?

:26:31.:26:34.

That is what our constituents want to know. What are we doing to

:26:35.:26:38.

strengthen our borders, what are we doing to exchange intelligence

:26:39.:26:41.

information across Europe? What are we doing to strengthen intelligence

:26:42.:26:45.

and policing agencies which the Chancellor spoke about last week.

:26:46.:26:51.

All of this we should see through the prism of international security.

:26:52.:26:57.

When you have the knowledge you can make a difference I believe we

:26:58.:27:00.

should act. Let me take an intervention from the leader of the

:27:01.:27:04.

Liberal Democrats. He rightly makes the point how important it is we are

:27:05.:27:11.

seen to stand with our friends and allies in Europe. However, the Prime

:27:12.:27:14.

Minister has not so fast and with those European allies on the matter

:27:15.:27:19.

of taking our fair share of refugees from this crisis and others. Would

:27:20.:27:24.

he look again at the save the children request that this country

:27:25.:27:27.

takes 3000 orphaned children, refugees currently in Europe? I

:27:28.:27:32.

would say we have played a huge part in Europe as the biggest bilateral

:27:33.:27:36.

donor. No other European country has given as much as Britain has and we

:27:37.:27:43.

will take 20,000 refugees with 1000 arriving by Christmas. I'm happy to

:27:44.:27:46.

look once again at the issue of orphans. I think it is better to

:27:47.:27:50.

take orphans from the region rather than those who come over with

:27:51.:27:55.

sometimes extended family. I'm very happy to look at that again, both in

:27:56.:28:00.

Europe and out of Europe, to see if Britain can do more to fulfil our

:28:01.:28:04.

moral responsibilities. Mr Speaker, let me conclude, this is not 2003.

:28:05.:28:10.

We must not use past mistakes as an excuse for indifference or in

:28:11.:28:15.

action. Let's be clear, Mr Speaker, in action does not amount for a

:28:16.:28:19.

strategy for our security or the Syrian people. But in action is a

:28:20.:28:22.

choice. I believe it's the wrong choice. We face a clear threat and

:28:23.:28:27.

we have listened to our allies. We have taken legal advice. We have a

:28:28.:28:31.

unanimous United Nations resolution and discussed action extensively at

:28:32.:28:36.

meetings of the Security Council and cabinet and I've responded

:28:37.:28:41.

personally to the report of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and

:28:42.:28:43.

we have a proper motion before the House and we have a ten hour debate

:28:44.:28:48.

today. I look forward to the rest of the debate and listening to

:28:49.:28:51.

contributions of members on all sides of this House. But at the end

:28:52.:28:56.

of it all I hope the House will come together at in large numbers so that

:28:57.:29:02.

Britain will defeat these evil extremists and take the action

:29:03.:29:06.

needed now to keep the country safe. I pay tribute to the extraordinary

:29:07.:29:09.

bravery in service of our inspirational Armed Forces who will

:29:10.:29:14.

once again put themselves in harms way to protect our values and our

:29:15.:29:17.

way of life and I commend this motion to the House.

:29:18.:29:25.

The question is motion number two, I call the leader of the opposition,

:29:26.:29:34.

Mr Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:29:35.:29:52.

Shouldn't brought before the house today by the government faces us

:29:53.:30:01.

with exacting that decision. It is one with potentially far-reaching

:30:02.:30:04.

consequences for us all, Hitler in written as well as the people of

:30:05.:30:10.

civic -- here in Britain as well as the people of Syria. Taking a

:30:11.:30:16.

decision that would put British servicemen and women in harm 's way

:30:17.:30:21.

and would almost inevitably lead to the death of innocents is a heavy

:30:22.:30:24.

responsibility and it must be treated with the utmost seriousness

:30:25.:30:29.

and respect given to those who make a different judgment about the right

:30:30.:30:35.

course of action to take. That is why the Prime Minister's attempt to

:30:36.:30:39.

brand those who planned to vote against the government as terrorist

:30:40.:30:44.

sympathisers both demeans the office of the Prime Minister and I believe

:30:45.:30:51.

undermines the seriousness of the deliberations we are having. If he

:30:52.:30:55.

now wants to apologise for those remarks, I would be happy to give

:30:56.:30:57.

way to him to do so. Since the Prime Minister is unmoved,

:30:58.:31:12.

we will have to move on with the debate and I hope... He will be

:31:13.:31:22.

stronger later to recognise that, yes, he did make an unfortunate

:31:23.:31:26.

remark last night and apologising for it would be very helpful to

:31:27.:31:29.

improve the atmosphere of this debate. I thank my honourable friend

:31:30.:31:40.

for giving way. As he is appropriately pointing out that the

:31:41.:31:43.

Prime Minister is not showing leadership by not withdrawing his

:31:44.:31:48.

slur on me and others, would he also agreed there is no place whatsoever

:31:49.:31:54.

in the Labour Party for anybody who has been abusing those members of

:31:55.:31:59.

the parties who choose to vote with the government on this resolution?

:32:00.:32:06.

-- of the party. Abuse has no part in responsible, Democratic political

:32:07.:32:12.

dialogue, I believe very strongly in that and that is the way I wish to

:32:13.:32:16.

conduct myself and I wish others to conduct themselves. I'm very

:32:17.:32:20.

grateful to my right honourable friend for giving way. Would he

:32:21.:32:25.

agreed that if the Prime Minister came to the dispatch box and made a

:32:26.:32:33.

clear apology, he would clear the air immediately and we could move on

:32:34.:32:36.

in this debate with a simple, I'm sorry? As he often does on these

:32:37.:32:45.

occasions, he appears to be taking advice from the Chancellor of the

:32:46.:32:49.

Exchequer on this matter. If he wants to apologise, that's fine, if

:32:50.:32:53.

he doesn't, the whole world can note he is not apologising. Since the

:32:54.:32:59.

Prime Minister first made his case for extending British bombing to

:33:00.:33:03.

Syria last week, the doubts and unanswered questions then expressed

:33:04.:33:07.

on both sides of the house have only grown and multiplied. That is why it

:33:08.:33:12.

is a matter of such concern that the government has decided to push this

:33:13.:33:16.

vote through Parliament today. It would have been far better to allow

:33:17.:33:22.

a full two day debate that would have given all members the chance to

:33:23.:33:27.

a proper contribution and you yourself, Mr Speaker, informed us

:33:28.:33:31.

that 157 have applied to speak in this debate. I'm grateful to him for

:33:32.:33:41.

giving way. We have worked together on the Kurdish issue, he knows how

:33:42.:33:45.

tough the Kurds are finding it fighting Isil in Iraq and Syria. His

:33:46.:33:52.

Shadow Foreign Secretary believes the four conditions debated at the

:33:53.:33:57.

Labour Party conference for taking action in Syria have been met, why

:33:58.:34:01.

does he disagree? He may have to wait a few moments to hear that but

:34:02.:34:06.

it will be in my speech, I can promise him Ulster I'm pleased he'd

:34:07.:34:10.

made the intervention in respect of the Kurdish people because at some

:34:11.:34:14.

point, over the whole of the Middle East and this is that the mud, that

:34:15.:34:18.

has to be a recognition of the rights of Kurdish people, in

:34:19.:34:19.

whichever country they live. I thank him for giving way. I'm glad

:34:20.:34:34.

he has mentioned the Kurds. Could he be clear that he or anyone on this

:34:35.:34:42.

bench in no way will want to remove the air protection which was voted

:34:43.:34:46.

on with an overwhelming majority in the house 14 months ago? I thank him

:34:47.:34:52.

for the intervention, it is not part of the motion today so we move on

:34:53.:35:00.

with this debate. It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the

:35:01.:35:05.

Prime Minister understands that public opinion is moving

:35:06.:35:10.

increasingly against what I believe to be an ill thought out rush to

:35:11.:35:18.

walk. He wants to hold this vote before opinion grows further against

:35:19.:35:24.

him -- rush to war. Whether it is a lack of strategy, the absence of

:35:25.:35:28.

credible ground troops, the missing the Mitic plan for a Syrian

:35:29.:35:31.

settlement, the failure to address the impact of the terrorist threat

:35:32.:35:36.

or the refugee crisis and civilian casualties, it is becoming clear

:35:37.:35:41.

that the Prime Minister's proposal for military action simply do not

:35:42.:35:48.

stack up. And grateful to him for giving way and I agree that the case

:35:49.:35:53.

has not been put for this. Under these circumstances, and the slur

:35:54.:35:56.

that has been put on the opposition benches, whether or not he will

:35:57.:36:00.

reconsider that it is important that the Labour Party in its entirety

:36:01.:36:04.

joins with these ventures on opposing the government to make sure

:36:05.:36:08.

this government is defeated on this motion? Every MP as to make a

:36:09.:36:18.

decision today, every MP has a vote today, every MP has a constituency

:36:19.:36:22.

and they should be aware of what constituents and public opinion is

:36:23.:36:26.

and they will make up their own mind. Obviously I am proposing we do

:36:27.:36:30.

not support the motion of the government and I would encourage all

:36:31.:36:34.

colleagues on all sides to join me in the opposition lobby tonight.

:36:35.:36:42.

Last week the Prime Minister focused his case for bombing in Syria on the

:36:43.:36:46.

critical tests set by the very respected cross-party foreign

:36:47.:36:51.

affairs select committee. Given the holes in their case to it is

:36:52.:36:55.

scarcely surprising that last night the committee reported the Prime

:36:56.:37:00.

Minister had not, "adequately addressed their concerns." In other

:37:01.:37:09.

words, the committee judged that the Prime Minister's case for bombing

:37:10.:37:14.

has failed its tests. I'm grateful to the right and noble gentleman.

:37:15.:37:19.

That the committee resolved 4-3 that the prime Minster has not adequately

:37:20.:37:23.

addressed concerned in the second report with the absence of his

:37:24.:37:26.

honourable friends for a dinner in Valley and Ilford South, who would

:37:27.:37:33.

have resisted that motion, but it is on a narrow point where logically it

:37:34.:37:39.

is all most impossible for the Prime Minister to adequately meet those

:37:40.:37:42.

concerned given the fact he is not in a position to produce sufficient

:37:43.:37:48.

detail to set aside some of my colleagues. It is a very weak point

:37:49.:37:59.

for him to rely on. I thank him for his intervention and we have often

:38:00.:38:03.

had amicable discussions on many of these issues and I am sure we will

:38:04.:38:08.

again. The fact is that at a meeting of the foreign affairs select

:38:09.:38:11.

committee, there was a verdict and that the Prime Minister had not

:38:12.:38:17.

adequately addressed the concerns. Obviously I understand there are

:38:18.:38:20.

differences of opinion, there are plenty all around this house. Your

:38:21.:38:28.

benches and these. I ask the chair of the select committee to recognise

:38:29.:38:32.

that a decision has been made by his committee. After the despicable and

:38:33.:38:39.

horrific attacks in Paris last month, the question of whether the

:38:40.:38:44.

government's proposals for military action in Syria strengthens or

:38:45.:38:48.

undermines our own national security must be at the centre of our

:38:49.:38:52.

deliberations. There is no doubt that the so-called Islamic State

:38:53.:39:00.

group, I had given way quite a lot already, there are 157 members who

:39:01.:39:04.

wish to take part in this debate so I think I should try to move on and

:39:05.:39:08.

speed it up slightly which appears to meet with your approval. There is

:39:09.:39:14.

no doubt that the so-called Islamic State has imposed a reign of

:39:15.:39:18.

sectarian and inhumane terror in Iraq, Syria, and Libya, and that it

:39:19.:39:23.

also poses a threat to our own people. The issue now is whether it

:39:24.:39:27.

is whether it's ending British bombing from Iraq to Syria is likely

:39:28.:39:33.

to reduce or increase that threat to Britain and whether it will counter

:39:34.:39:37.

or spread the terror campaign Isil is waging across the Middle East.

:39:38.:39:42.

The answers don't make the case for the government motion. On the

:39:43.:39:48.

contrary, they are warning to step back. A vote against yet another

:39:49.:39:52.

ill-fated twist in this never-ending war on terror Ulster that start with

:39:53.:39:57.

the military dimension. The prime Minster has been unable to explain

:39:58.:40:02.

why extending extract to Syria will make a significant literary impact

:40:03.:40:08.

on the existing campaign. Isil is already being bombed by Syria, the

:40:09.:40:15.

US, France, Britain and Russia and other powers. Canada has withdrawn

:40:16.:40:21.

from this campaign and no longer takes part in it. During more than a

:40:22.:40:27.

year bombing, Isil has expanded and lost territory, they gained include

:40:28.:40:34.

it Ramadi and the Syrian city of polymer. The claim that superior

:40:35.:40:38.

British missiles would make a difference is hard to credit when

:40:39.:40:41.

the US and other states, as an intervention said earlier, are

:40:42.:40:48.

struggling to find suitable targets. In other words, extending British

:40:49.:40:51.

bombing is unlikely to make a huge difference. Secondly, the Prime

:40:52.:40:58.

Minister has failed to convince almost anyone that even if British

:40:59.:41:03.

participation in the air campaign were to tip the balance, there are

:41:04.:41:08.

credible ground forces able to take back territory now held by Isil. In

:41:09.:41:14.

fact, it is quite clear there are no such forces. Last week the Prime

:41:15.:41:18.

Minister suggested that a combination of Kurdish militias, the

:41:19.:41:24.

free Syrian army, able to fill the gap. He even claimed a 70,000 strong

:41:25.:41:31.

force of moderate FS a fighters were ready to coordinate action against

:41:32.:41:38.

Isil with the Western air campaign. That claim has not remotely stood up

:41:39.:41:42.

to scrutiny. Kurdish forces are a distance away in areas where Isil

:41:43.:41:52.

controls. The FSA include a wide range of groups and few if any would

:41:53.:41:57.

regard as moderate and mostly operate in other parts of the

:41:58.:42:00.

country. The only ground forces able to take advantage of a successful

:42:01.:42:06.

anti-Isil air campaign are stronger jihadist groups close to the Isil

:42:07.:42:13.

controlled areas. I think these are serious issues that we need to think

:42:14.:42:17.

through carefully all stop I believe that is what the Prime Minister's

:42:18.:42:22.

bombing campaign could lead to. This is why the logic... I will give

:42:23.:42:28.

weight later on in my contribution but I think I should be enabled to

:42:29.:42:32.

make an important part of this -- give weight. This is why the logic

:42:33.:42:40.

of an extended air campaign is in fact mission creep and western boots

:42:41.:42:44.

on the ground, whatever he may say now about keeping British combat

:42:45.:42:48.

troops out of the way, are a real possibility. Thirdly, the military

:42:49.:42:55.

aim of attacking Isil targets in Syria is not really part of a

:42:56.:43:00.

coherent diplomatic strategy. The UN Security Council resolution to 249

:43:01.:43:06.

passed after the Paris atrocities and cited in today's motion does not

:43:07.:43:11.

give clear and unambiguous authorisation for UK bombing in

:43:12.:43:16.

Syria. To do so it would have had to be passed under chapter seven of the

:43:17.:43:21.

United Nations Charter to which the Security Council could not agree.

:43:22.:43:29.

The UN resolution is certainly a welcome framework. For joint action

:43:30.:43:37.

to cut off funding, oil revenues, arms supplies from Isil. But I

:43:38.:43:44.

wonder how many side there are of that happening. I thank him for

:43:45.:43:50.

giving way. We don't agree on much but on the necessity to cut off the

:43:51.:43:55.

oil supplies I do agree with him but I am at a loss to understand why he

:43:56.:44:01.

would oppose a strike which are such a crucial part in targeting oil

:44:02.:44:04.

supplies which are providing funding for Isil Daesh. The problem is, the

:44:05.:44:12.

oil supplies that are being sold are going into other countries come into

:44:13.:44:17.

Turkey and other places and I think we need to know exactly who is

:44:18.:44:27.

buying that oil, who is funding it, what banks are involved in financial

:44:28.:44:31.

transactions which ultimately end up with Isil and which other countries

:44:32.:44:37.

in the region may or may not be involved. That is despite the clear

:44:38.:44:46.

risk of a potentially disastrous incidents, the shooting down of

:44:47.:44:51.

eight Russian military aircraft by Turkish forces is a sign of the

:44:52.:44:54.

danger of a serious escalation of this whole issue.

:44:55.:45:01.

I'm grateful to him for giving way. The number of the grand troops is

:45:02.:45:07.

unknown and the composition also but we note by definition they are

:45:08.:45:12.

opposition fighters, anti-Assad. Does he agree the Prime Minister

:45:13.:45:16.

still has a question to answer about how we can work with them to take

:45:17.:45:19.

round from Daesh without getting drawn into a wider conflict with

:45:20.:45:23.

Russia, given they are on the other side? I think the member for

:45:24.:45:28.

Brighton makes an important point. She has been very active in trying

:45:29.:45:34.

to promote peace and humanitarian resolutions to the many conflicts

:45:35.:45:38.

that exist around the world. Fourthly, Mr Speaker, the Prime

:45:39.:45:41.

Minister has avoided spelling out to the British people the warnings he

:45:42.:45:47.

has surely been given. The likely impact of UK air strikes on the

:45:48.:45:51.

threat of terrorist attacks in the UK. That's something everyone who

:45:52.:45:59.

backs the Government's motion should think about very carefully before we

:46:00.:46:02.

decide whether or not to send RAF pilots into action over Syria. It is

:46:03.:46:08.

critically important, Mr Speaker, that we as a House are honest with

:46:09.:46:14.

the British people about the potential consequences of the action

:46:15.:46:16.

the Prime Minister is proposing to us today. I'm aware that there are

:46:17.:46:22.

those with military experience, including members on the benches

:46:23.:46:26.

opposite as well is on this side, who have argued that by extending UK

:46:27.:46:33.

bombing will," increase the short-term risk of terrorist attacks

:46:34.:46:38.

in Britain." We should also remember the impact, Mr Speaker, on

:46:39.:46:43.

communities here in Britain. Sadly, since the Paris tax there has been a

:46:44.:46:51.

sharp increase in Islamophobic incidence and physical attacks --

:46:52.:46:55.

attacks. Have discussed these with people in my local mosque in my

:46:56.:46:59.

constituency and it is horrific. Surely, Mr speaker, the message from

:47:00.:47:03.

all of us in this house today must go out, none of us, let's say this

:47:04.:47:10.

together, we will not tolerate any form of anti-Semitism, Islamophobia

:47:11.:47:13.

or racism in any form in this country. The Prime Minister has not

:47:14.:47:20.

offered a serious assessment in my view of the intensified air campaign

:47:21.:47:26.

on civilian casualties in Isil held Syrian territory, or the wider

:47:27.:47:34.

Syrian refugee crisis. At least 250,000 have already been killed in

:47:35.:47:40.

Syria's terrible civil war. 11 million made homeless. And 4 million

:47:41.:47:46.

forced to leave the country. Many more have been killed by the Assad

:47:47.:47:50.

regime banned by Isil itself will stop yet more bombing in Syria will

:47:51.:47:58.

kill De -- innocent civilians, no doubt about that command many more

:47:59.:48:08.

civilians into refugees. Yesterday I was sent a message from a

:48:09.:48:11.

constituent of mine who comes from Syria. I'm sorry, it's not funny,

:48:12.:48:19.

it's a family who are suffering. I quote from his message: I'm a Syrian

:48:20.:48:26.

from a city which is now controlled by Isil. Members of my family still

:48:27.:48:31.

live there and Isil didn't kill them. My question to David Cameron

:48:32.:48:37.

is, can you guarantee the safety of my family when you're a forces drop

:48:38.:48:43.

bombs on my city? It's a fair question from a family who are very

:48:44.:48:51.

concerned. Thank you very much. I would say to the right honourable

:48:52.:48:55.

gentleman, I speak as a member of the military who has left and there

:48:56.:49:01.

is a fundamental point here that the lead -- Leader of the Opposition is

:49:02.:49:05.

making. This is about national security. All of the conflict in

:49:06.:49:09.

ordinance, the complex situations, it's very, very difficult but it

:49:10.:49:13.

comes down to national security and inhibiting what these people are

:49:14.:49:16.

trying to do on the streets of this country. Yes, of course, security on

:49:17.:49:23.

the streets of this country in all of our communities is very

:49:24.:49:27.

important. That's why we have supported the government in no

:49:28.:49:34.

longer pursuing the strategy of cutting the police and also

:49:35.:49:35.

increasing security in this country. Kos, clearly none of us

:49:36.:49:41.

want any kind of atrocity on the streets of this country. My borough

:49:42.:49:49.

was deeply affected by 7/7 in 2005. Can I just say, the member who has

:49:50.:49:54.

the floor cannot be expected to give way to a further intervention when

:49:55.:49:58.

he's in the process of answering an existing one. The honourable

:49:59.:50:02.

gentleman is an experienced enough denizen of this house to be aware of

:50:03.:50:06.

that. I'd like to give weight to the member for Tottenham. David Lammy.

:50:07.:50:17.

Stop it! I'm very grateful to the leader of

:50:18.:50:24.

the opposition. In making his points, does the leader of the

:50:25.:50:31.

opposition access that these 70,000 moderate Sunnis that the Prime

:50:32.:50:37.

Minister claims are there, consists of many different Jihadist groups,

:50:38.:50:44.

and there is some concern, I think across the House, that in

:50:45.:50:50.

potentially degrading Isil, Daesh, which is possible, we actually

:50:51.:50:53.

create a vacuum into which other jihadists come over time? That

:50:54.:50:58.

surely does not make the streets of Britain safer. Mr Speaker, in the

:50:59.:51:05.

sense of north London geography I now give way to the member for

:51:06.:51:10.

Southgate. I'm very grateful for him for giving way. He has a consistent

:51:11.:51:15.

position in relation to opposing air strikes, consistently in this House.

:51:16.:51:21.

In 2014 on the 27th of September when you voted against air strikes

:51:22.:51:25.

in Iraq, he said, I do not believe that further air strikes and the

:51:26.:51:27.

deepening of our involvement will solve the problem. Does he maintain

:51:28.:51:31.

his opposition to air strikes in Iraq, let alone extending it to

:51:32.:51:38.

Syria? I would thank both members for their interventions. The point

:51:39.:51:42.

made by my honourable friend, the member for Tottenham, is a serious

:51:43.:51:45.

one. We have to be careful about what happens in the future. As the

:51:46.:51:49.

Prime Minister and others have said we have to be very aware of the

:51:50.:51:53.

danger of some people, mainly young people, being deeply radicalised and

:51:54.:51:58.

end up doing very dangerous things indeed. Is the radicalisation of

:51:59.:52:03.

some, a very small number but nevertheless a significant number,

:52:04.:52:05.

of young people across Europe a product of the war or something

:52:06.:52:10.

else? I think we need to think very deeply about that and think very

:52:11.:52:14.

deeply about what has happened in this world since 2001, and the

:52:15.:52:20.

increasing numbers of people that are suffering because of it. I rest

:52:21.:52:25.

my case at that point. There isn't, Mr Speaker, an EU wide strategy to

:52:26.:52:38.

provide humanitarian assistance to those victims. Mr Speaker, perhaps

:52:39.:52:42.

most importantly of all, I asked the Prime Minister this, is he able to

:52:43.:52:48.

explain how British bombing in Syria will contribute to a comprehensive

:52:49.:52:54.

negotiated political settlement of the Syrian war? Such a settlement is

:52:55.:53:02.

widely accepted to be the only way to ensure the isolation and defeat

:53:03.:53:08.

of Isil. Isil grew out of the invasion of Iraq and it has

:53:09.:53:13.

flourished in Syria in the chaos and horror of a multi-fronted Civil War.

:53:14.:53:20.

I thank my Right Honourable friend for giving way. The Prime Minister

:53:21.:53:24.

spoke often of the choice between action and inaction that we face

:53:25.:53:28.

today. But those of us who will be voting against air strikes, we also

:53:29.:53:34.

want to see action. The Prime Minister said almost nothing about

:53:35.:53:39.

cutting off the financial supplies for Daesh, which buy the bombs,

:53:40.:53:45.

which helped radicalised recruits. Does my Right Honourable friend

:53:46.:53:49.

agree with me that we need action on this point? We absolutely need

:53:50.:53:55.

action to ensure there is a diplomatic and political solution to

:53:56.:53:59.

the crisis. I welcome what the Prime Minister said about speeding up the

:54:00.:54:02.

process in Vienna. Surely the message ought to be let's speed that

:54:03.:54:08.

up rather than sending the bombers in now to bring about political

:54:09.:54:15.

settlement. What we need, therefore, Mr Speaker, is an

:54:16.:54:19.

involvement of all the main regional and international powers. I know

:54:20.:54:26.

that has been attempted. I know that they have been discussions in Vienna

:54:27.:54:33.

and we welcome that. I think it is regrettable... Mr Speaker I will try

:54:34.:54:36.

and make progress with the speech, if I may. There are over 150 members

:54:37.:54:42.

who wish to speak, therefore I think long speeches on the front benches

:54:43.:54:47.

take time out of backbench speeches. The aim must be to establish a

:54:48.:54:51.

broad-based and in Syria that has the support of the majority of its

:54:52.:54:55.

people. Difficult as that is to envisage at the present time. Are

:54:56.:55:05.

you going to give way? No. Such a settlement could take away territory

:55:06.:55:08.

from Isil and bring about their defeat in Syria. Ultimately, Mr

:55:09.:55:13.

Speaker, I'm sorry to have to tell members opposite. I've given away

:55:14.:55:17.

quite a lot to members on both sides and I will continue with my speech.

:55:18.:55:26.

Sit down! Order! The very long established

:55:27.:55:33.

convention of this House is the member who has the floor gives way

:55:34.:55:38.

or not as he or she chooses. The leader of the opposition has made it

:55:39.:55:42.

clear for now he's not going to if way, the appropriate response is not

:55:43.:55:45.

for a member to jump up and shout "give weight! " Jeremy Corbyn. Thank

:55:46.:55:54.

you -- give way. The solution for Syria has to be for all of the

:55:55.:56:01.

people of Syria, I think we are agreed on that. I thought I made it

:56:02.:56:06.

clear, I think the Speaker made it clear, that at the moment I'm not

:56:07.:56:10.

giving way. I'm really sorry but I'm not, OK? The Government's

:56:11.:56:15.

proposals... The Government's proposals for... On a point of

:56:16.:56:29.

order, though it is indeed customary that he who holds the floor decides

:56:30.:56:33.

whether or not to give way, is it not also customary to answer

:56:34.:56:37.

questions when they are put in interventions and we are waiting for

:56:38.:56:49.

the answer on Iraq? Answer! Answer! The honourable gentleman is a Savic

:56:50.:56:52.

and the experienced parliamentarian to know he has made his own point in

:56:53.:56:57.

his own way and that it's on the record. Mr Jeremy Corbyn. Answer!

:56:58.:57:04.

Answer! Thank you, Mr Speaker. If I could move on with the speech I

:57:05.:57:08.

would be most grateful, Mr Speaker. The Government's proposals... The

:57:09.:57:13.

Government's proposals for military action in Syria are not backed by a

:57:14.:57:21.

clear and unauthorised... Fear and unambiguous authorisation by the

:57:22.:57:25.

United Nations. It does not meet the seven tests set down by our own

:57:26.:57:28.

Foreign Affairs Committee. And it does not fulfil three of the four

:57:29.:57:34.

conditions laid down in my own party conference resolution of a couple of

:57:35.:57:41.

months ago. In the past week, Mr Speaker, voice has been given to

:57:42.:57:44.

growing opposition to the Government's bombing plans across

:57:45.:57:48.

the country. In Parliament, outside, in the media and indeed in

:57:49.:57:53.

my own party. And I believe it's a consideration of all the wars that

:57:54.:57:58.

we have been involved in in the last 14 years. These matters were debated

:57:59.:58:03.

a great deal during my own campaign to be elected the leader of the

:58:04.:58:07.

Labour Party. Many people think very deeply about these matters. The

:58:08.:58:16.

likes of the record of Western military intervention must be

:58:17.:58:20.

analysed. British bombing in Syria risks more of what President Obama

:58:21.:58:24.

in a very thoughtful moment called "the unintended consequences of the

:58:25.:58:29.

war in Iraq" which he himself opposed at the time. The spectre, Mr

:58:30.:58:36.

Speaker, of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya looms over this debate. Mr

:58:37.:58:42.

Speaker, I'm not giving way, I'm going to carry on with my speech. Mr

:58:43.:58:51.

Speaker, to oppose another war and intervention, in my view, is

:58:52.:58:55.

actually not pacifism, it's hard-headed common-sense which I

:58:56.:58:59.

think we should be thinking about today in this House. To resist

:59:00.:59:05.

Isil's determination to draw the Western powers back into the heart

:59:06.:59:08.

of the Middle East isn't to turn our back on our allies, it is refusing

:59:09.:59:15.

to play into the hands of Isil and what I suspect some of them want us

:59:16.:59:21.

to do. Is it wrong for us in Westminster to see a problem, pass a

:59:22.:59:26.

motion, drop bombs and pretending we are doing something to solve it?

:59:27.:59:31.

That's what we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya. I ask the House this

:59:32.:59:40.

question: Has terrorism increased or decreased as a result of all of

:59:41.:59:47.

that? STUDIO: As the leader of the

:59:48.:59:51.

opposition comes to the end of his speech we have to leave it. We've

:59:52.:59:54.

run out of time and been on the air for two hours. We've seen opening

:59:55.:59:58.

speeches from the government and opposition. Both Mr Cameron and Mr

:59:59.:00:03.

Corbyn having a pretty rough time of it. I think both sides will regard

:00:04.:00:07.

the leaders perhaps getting the debate off to the kind of start they

:00:08.:00:10.

would have hoped are both struggling with interventions, difficult

:00:11.:00:16.

debate. We will see how it continues. The debate will continue

:00:17.:00:20.

on BBC Parliament and BBC News will be across this for the rest of the

:00:21.:00:24.

day up until the vote is taken around 10pm tonight. But from this

:00:25.:00:29.

Daily Politics Special it's over, we will be back tomorrow with the Daily

:00:30.:00:34.

Politics when we will be able to review everything that has happened

:00:35.:00:37.

today. But for now, thanks for joining us here and it's goodbye

:00:38.:00:40.

from the Daily Politics.

:00:41.:00:41.

In a special extended edition of the Daily Politics, Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn bring you live coverage of the opening of the House of Commons debate on extending air strikes against so-called Islamic State into Syria. Andrew and Jo are joined by former foreign secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind, former head of the army Lord Dannatt and MPs including Lisa Nandy, Crispin Blunt, Caroline Flint and John Baron.


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