07/12/2015 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Thousands of homes remain without power in North West England

and Scotland following some of the worst flooding seen in years.

The Prime Minister, who's been chairing an emergency

meeting of the crisis committee, Cobra, will visit some of the worst

More armed patrols on Britain's transport network

following a suspected terrorist knife attack at the weekend.

Should the number of Bishops in the House of Lords be cut to make

We'll be finding out who's managed to bag Cartoonist of the Year.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration two new MPs,

Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns caused a bit of a shock

when she un-seated Labour's Shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls.

And Labour's Neil Coyle un-seated Liberal Democrat MP,

and Justice Minister, Simon Hughes in Southwark and Bermondsey.

Jenkyns, Andrea Marie, the Conservative Party candidate,

Coyle, Neil, Labour Party 22,000... CHEERING.

What is it like toppling a big political beast? I am pinching

myself still, seven months later. I can't believe I'm wearing the same

jacket is then. No one would have noticed if you hadn't said

anything. What does it feel like though? It's amazing, really. That

night of the election, my mum, I walked in at the weekend and she was

playing it over again. It's such a privilege. It's a great honour to be

here and I'm loving every moment of it. Did you speak to Ed Balls? Heard

from him since? He was very gracious on the evening. He was, on the

night. What about you? Simon Hughes was very much part of the furniture

in Southwark and Bermondsey. He had a solid reputation for doing

casework and they were big boots to fill and I've had more than 4000

people approach me since May, and it feels a long time ago already. You

are thrown in at the deep end to get on with the job casework arrives and

you have to do it. Does the shadow of your predecessors haunt you

because they were so associated with the seat? A little. It is not even a

shadow. I still see Simon out in the constituency. There is a reality to

who is not wanted. And all of the casework has been handed over, so

there is a continuation for some of the people who you was helping you

now see me. The number one issue closes to your heart? Health, that

is the reason I went into politics. What do you want to try and achieve?

Having lost my heart father through eight hospital infection, and

antibiotic resistance has been on the agenda. Two weeks ago I launched

a hands hygiene campaign and there is a shocking statistic that 25% of

commuters in London have PCs on their hands. So hand hygiene is

important to stop infection -- faeces on their hands. We will leave

it there. It is time for the daily quiz.

The question for today is who does our guest of the day Andrea Jenkyns

c) Christine Lagarde or d) current Miss World, Rolene Strauss?

At the end of the show, Neil and Andrea will give us

Now to the floods, which have left a trail of devastation

And with more rain forecast for the North West and Scotland,

there appears to be no immediate end to the misery.

Thousands of people remain without power and many have had to spend

With many transport links still cut, health care will be restricted

today and some schools will stay closed.

David Cameron will visit some of the worst affected areas this afternoon.

He's been chairing a meeting of the Government's Cobra emergencies

Let's talk now to our correspondent, Carole Walker.

Give us the latest in terms of response from Cobra. As you say,

David Cameron chaired the meeting, bringing together the relevant

ministers and representatives of some of the emergency services who

joined it down the line from some of the badly affected areas. What the

government is doing is focusing on the immediate crisis, so that is

about checking to make sure that everyone is safe. If there are

people in their homes you need to be evacuated that they are taken to

safety. Looking at problems with transport links on the roads and

bridges that have been cut. On the railway lines, what more can be done

to restore some of those vital links. Looking as well at the issue

of power. We know that tens of thousands of homes were cut off at

some stage. Some of those supplies have been put back on, but not all

yet restored. The government is trying to see what more it can do on

that because it creates huge problems for hospitals, care homes

and the like. We will then move into the second phase, which is looking

at what more needs to be done to help some of those communities which

now have to cope with the terrible mess and aftermath of the flooding.

When Liz Truss makes a statement in the House of Commons we will hear

more details about. Beyond that, we are told the government will look at

the basis for its planning of the flooding, a review of the

assumptions made. We heard from Rory Stewart, the environmentalist,

saying -- environment Minister, saying some places at their highest

ever rail fall in a short space of time. They are trying to save the

basis of planning is the right one or it needs to be prepared for more

incidents like this. The criticism, as you know, is that despite the

money spent after the last round of severe flooding, they really could

not withstand this deluge this time round. Clearly the flood defences,

even the new flood defences put in place, in many places they were

quite inadequate with the flood waters so high that they came over

the top of the defences. The government is saying some of those

flood defences did make a difference and gave householders and businesses

longer to prepare and evacuate. But there was still huge amounts of

damage and difficulty course. Yes, local communities and council

leaders are already saying they need more defences and more money spent.

The government says it is spending ?2.3 billion over this parliament on

flood defences. The question is whether it is being spent

flood defences. The question is and whether the government needs to

look again at the sort of defences it is building. Carroll,

Westminster, thank you. Let's talk now to the

Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, Tell us your experiences over the

weekend because you were really caught up with it, along with many

constituents. Yes, I don't think I had an experience as bad as many

people here. I am stood on the street by the bridge, no distance

from a seer, and businesses are deluge and out of business potential

it -- no distance from us here. Hundreds of families are out of

their homes, probably the Christmas and it is heartbreaking. My

experience is pretty limited in the context. It is a real reminder that

the weather is changing. It certainly appears to be. And we are

not getting once in a hundred years deluge is, they are happening on an

annual basis. That is something we need to mitigate against. Let's turn

to how you would do it. In some ways the level of rain was unprecedented,

but you say we are seeing more of this sort of climate extreme. Would

you agree it's impossible to protect against such extreme weather events?

First of all, a bit difficult to hear you, but I think I got it. In

the end, very cautious about pointing the finger at anyone. The

reality is that this was extreme weather, but the problem is we are

getting more extreme weather more often. This is Cumbria and we are

used to challenging and difficult weather conditions. We are made of

tough stuff up here. But this is an incredible thing, which has taken

everybody by surprise. The question we need to ask ourselves is, whether

it was right to cancel some of the funding for flood defence schemes

over the last few years. The last three governments bear some

responsibility for that. Knowing that if you can protect against

these extreme circumstances, then the amount of money you save and the

amount of misery you prevent is infinitely greater than the outlay

of spending money on the schemes. Which schemes specifically? You said

they were promised up the previous floods and then they will shelve and

should have been funded, that would be during the coalition time, so

which one specifically? There were around 300 across the country which

I protested against at the time, and they included one on the River Kent,

just yards away from us over to the left. If you spend money in advance

on these things, then obviously, if you get extreme weather, then as a

consequence you are preventing billions of pounds of damage, not to

mention the human misery that those things lead to. I absolutely buy

that climate change is happening and this is a consequent change, and

it's a consequence of activity over decades, so where do I point the

finger? At all others, humankind is responsible. Even if you don't

believe it is human created, it is clearly climate change. This is

happening more and more often, so the investment in flood defences is

necessary and a wise investment. It depends how it is spent, I suppose.

Five years ago Carlisle got a ?35 million flood defence scheme and now

it is one of the worst affected areas. In a sense, it has obviously

been spent in the wrong way or there isn't any amount of money that can

protect against that sort of freak weather. To an extent, you are

right. It is freak weather and I'm very cautious about pointing the

finger at anyone. The main job is to put an arm around people. Because it

was the government the Liberal Democrats were involved in last

time? No, on these schemes, I pointed the finger then and

criticised those schemes in 2012. But the point I'm making, if you

look at individual schemes, some will have been overwhelmed even with

this weather. But some have actually succeeded. A few years ago here in

Kendal, about 500 yards away from where I am stood, that was the part

that flooded all the time and we spend ?1 million on a flood defence

scheme and it is an area which has been broadly protected in this awful

weather. So flood defence schemes work. If you think about the

insurance claim is not being paid out because of that scheme, as an

individual one, and the human misery not caused because the scheme has

been built, it is worth every penny and it is the back. Actually, the

scale of investment that we need to be thinking of is that much greater

-- and it is paying back. Briefly, on insurance, what sort of situation

are people in in terms of claiming for the widespread damage that has

been done? Some people have had great response from their insurers,

many others have had a poor response, a delayed response. And

others, frankly people who often have no money whatsoever, they find

themselves in a situation where they have chosen not to insure the

property because they had no cash to start off with. For those people, I

feel desperately sorry and we need to get alongside those people. There

are people who will be out of their homes at Christmas and have nothing

at all and no prospect of anything coming back in terms of insurance.

This is a human catastrophe and we have to stand with those people.

Tim, thank you very much. There were schemes that were cancelled, Andrea

Jenkyns, under the Coalition Government, between 2010 and 2015.

Was it a mistake? It's a difficult decision of any government to make.

We were recovering from the worst recession in peace time, so where do

you put the money? Whichever department it is, you cannot money

-- magic money out of thin air. Whichever one you take it from, it

leaves another one short. I am pleased we have this ?2.3 billion

investment. My heart goes out to the community and its devastating

families. It wasn't that long ago, 2009, there were similar. When you

say you have to find the money or take it from another department,

what Tim Farren is saying, is that you could prevent the spend that has

to come to repair the damage. The government has a long-term economic

plan and we see short-term measures that have long-term costs and

consequences down the line. The flood prevention budget was cut by a

third when the coalition took office in 2010.

It was cut although the government argues it was up to local

authorities to do some of the spending, but could they really are

forced to deal with that sort of devastation we are seeing here? It

was unprecedented, the amount of rain. The big thing is, we have ?2.3

billion of investment. Over the course of Parliament. Last week,

Darfur announced a cut to the flood prevention and coastal erosion

budget. Is that short-sighted? The Environment Agency Chief Executive,

out and said that they have adequate funding, now. Going forward, the

chief executive, we are going in the right direction. My heart goes out

to the people here who does not get help from that. We need to learn to

be better next time. The Environment Agency said the flood defences put

in place in 2010 they could survive a 1 in 100 year event, 2 years

later, they are breached. Is Tim Farron right that Labour would have

to pledge as much money because these things are happening all the

time, they are not won in 100 year event is? What is genuinely

long-term? Too often from Conservative ministers we see

numbers in a column that are supposed to add up and they don't.

Would Labour commit? If they went government, would you like to see

them commit vast sums of money? Committed to protecting communities

and make sure that flood prevention is save money is a sensible

measure. The Environment Agency had a 20% staff lost since 2010. Right

now, we are seeing the threat and closure of five fire stations in

Cumbria alone, these are not sensible measures that protect

communities long-term. What would you do different as the Labour

Party? Team announced the review, ?2.4 billion, what specific measures

protect communities long-term? If we are saying infrastructure needs to

be put in place now, let's get on with it rather than, as we have had

from this covenant, cuts to budget that have long-term consequences. We

have had long-term investment which the Environment Agency said is good.

They do not have the resources when faced with .net cuts. It is about

how you spend it, which is what Tim Farron was saying, not just money.

Insurance, that must be a nightmare for people. How are they getting

insurance? Lots of viewers would ask how can you get insured if you live

in a flood areas? I lived in Boston, Lincolnshire for five years. That

was the same insurance, difficult in the Fens. Something has to be done.

Should the government but the Fens. Something has to be done.

on insurance companies to still give people a reasonable package of cover

in areas where these sort of things will happen? We need to look into

it. Better correspondence with those organisations. People need

insurance, it is their lives, what they have built up. The government

needs to focus on prevention and making sure insurance is available.

Insurance companies need to pay up quicker. We had flooding in

Southwark, businesses and residents found it difficult to get payments

as quick as they needed to move on with their lives and keep their

businesses open. We will leave it there.

Extra uniformed and undercover police,

backed by a growing number of armed officers, have been drafted in to

protect London's transport network, after a suspected terrorist-related

Let's talk now to our Security Correspondent, Frank Gardner who's

Frank, do you think now lone wolf attacks, which this seems to be,

seen as the most likely ongoing threat? How do the police prepare

for it? I want to just pre-faced this by saying I will put some

distance between what I am saying and the incident you referred to. I

will talk in entirely generic terms. There is an ongoing threat.

Because of the incredible volume of very slick propaganda videos coming

out of Syria, out of Isis. Which is aimed at a vulnerable and

impressionable people, who perhaps feel they are not part of society,

no great loyalty to Britain. A lot of this propaganda is very effective

at radicalising and turning people. And encouraging them to carry out

attacks in countries like France, Belgium, Britain, etc. Basically,

countries that are part of the correlation that are confronting

so-called Islamic State in Syria and Iraq. -- part of the coalition. This

has increased since the Paris attack. The air strikes are

definitely hurting Isis. They are hemming them in, hurting their will

supplies, their sources of revenue. Their way of hitting back is to

encourage people to do so called... Lone Wolf, I don't like that

expression, there is always some kind of connection. The police and

the security services are most concerned about the people who they

call SVEs spontaneous violent extremists. People who are

call SVEs spontaneous violent of any network or plot, they don't

necessarily need to have gone to Syria. But they have served a lot of

violent extremist propaganda online and have decided to do something in

response to it. The former First Minister of Scotland at the weekend,

Alex Salmond, said none of the seven foiled plots by the security

services was directed from Syria, he claims. Underlining your claim that

actually, this is something connected to what is going on, but

is home-grown. Yes. Just because it is not directed by them, there is no

evidence that San Bernardino with the murder of 14 people in

California, was directed by them. But the fact is, it is inspired by

them and what is going on. People who carry these things out are doing

it in the name of Isis. Even if Isis doesn't even know they are doing it.

That is what is worrying. It gives the psychopathic violent, murderous

people, with criminal intent and sometimes criminal background, some

kind of cloak of a bigger, some sort of, bigger, higher aim. Actually,

what they are doing is just murdering innocent people. Boris

Johnson has entered the debate on the military side, the conflict

aside, do we have to let the Russians back President Assad's

boots on the ground to defeat Isil. In a way, is he not stating the

obvious, the unspoken that Britain has two, to some extent, gone in on

that side, in order to defeat Isis. I would disagree with that. There is

very little fighting between Isis and the Assad regime. The President

Assad regime have mostly for the non-ISIS rebels, which is why when

Russia came in with their air strikes, look at the map of those

air strikes. Almost all of them, the vast majority, over 80% of them,

have been hitting the rebels, non-ISIS rebels, closest to Assad's

forces. Identify the Russians want boots on the ground. They have

probably in excess of 1000 people now, some special forces, but most

of them force protection, to protect their warplanes and their bases,

their camps. They don't want another Afghanistan type ground campaign and

Britain does not want to get involved in that, if we can avoid

it. Thank you. The yell from a passenger, has rather You Ain' tNo

Muslim Bruv captured social media. -- has rather captured.

The more people who recognise that, they have nothing to do with Islam,

the better. It is something incredibly accurate. What about the

police presence? There was a huge furore over claims that George

Osborne was going to cut back on police numbers. He didn't, in the

end, probably as a result of that pressure, are you happy with the

police presence on the street? We need to say that the police are

doing a great job. It is not easy for them. We need to commend them

for their bravery. Are there enough police on the street? Crime has gone

down. But with this threat? With this threat?

I think it is a joined up... Approach that we need. It is all the

services. I mean, I was... This threat has been going on a while. I

was in Bali, ten years ago and I just missed the Harley bombs, by 20

seconds by jumping into a taxi, that has left an impression on me, my

parents and I almost got blown up -- Bali bombing. We have got to pull

together. Cross-party. And defeat it. We are doing the right thing.

The fact that the police were there within a few minutes and they

captured him... In order to be cross-party, we need consensus. In

Southwark, only 16% of knife crimes last year have been solved.

Inexcusable to pretend that crime is a sensible or reasonable level. The

police do not have the resorts is they need. We have lost 200 police

and PC SOs since 2010. As usual, with the budget, we have had smoke

and mirrors. Because of the amount of extra money going into

counterterrorism, we will still lose all of the PCSOs in London who

provide front-line intelligence. There is a target. We have aborted

seven attempts in the last 12 months, the police are doing a

fantastic job. That is also the security services. If you want to

increase levels of police on the cheap network, you need the police

to do it. -- on the tube. Are there community relations which are

strained in your constituency? When I met with arms to talk about the

rise of Islamophobia, they talked about the additional measures. To

tackle the radicalisation. -- imams. Those relationships will be

strained, the more we lose police in the borough. It prevents the passing

on of information on individuals that imams have become concerned

about. That is a real risk. There is already an arrest every other day in

London at someone suspected... Watched a bishop contribute

in the House of Lords recently? Maybe you even remember Archbishop

Geoffrey Fisher crowning Queen My guests and myself were too

young. But is it right that

in modern Britain, Christianity A new report by the Commission

on Religion and Belief in British Public Life is calling

for significant changes in the role of Christianity

in our multicultural society. The report contends that British

institutions need to change to reflect a "general decline"

in Christian affiliation. It says a "new settlement"

is needed to reflect the fact that almost half the population doesn't

identify with any religion. The Commission says faith schools

are "socially divisive" and that selection of pupils based on

their faith should be phased out. It calls for acts

of faith worship in assemblies to be ended, and replaced with a

"time for reflection". And in the House of Lords,

the number of Anglican bishops should be cut to make room

for leaders of other faiths. Major national and civil events,

such as the coronation of the monarch,

should be reformed to give them more And the government should re-focus

anti-terrorism legislation to promote freedom of speech,

particularly on campuses. The National Secular Society has

said the report is full of "handwringing,

but no concrete solutions". But the Church of England says the

Commission "misunderstands" the role of faith schools, and says most

public opinion is opposed to the And the vicar and religious

commentator, Giles Fraser is with us It gives us ace shot on where we

are. Christianity down, other religions up -- eight snapshot.

Secularism at. What do you do in that context? That is correct. That

is exactly what is happening. How do you get your national institutions

to reflect that reality? That is important. What it doesn't do is

that it doesn't get the fact that religion is becoming not something

about the great and the good any more. It is becoming something much

more on the street, something much more fractured and diverse. That is

why it is growing. Right. That is something that this commission

doesn't really get to. It doesn't get too... It is still talking in

terms of established religion, how you perform the various different

institutions. At the same time, there is a sort of bottom up growth

of religion, in a different way which is not being addressed. But

not organised religion. Disorganised religion. Disorganised religion. If

the report says and you agree, that Christianity is going down and other

religions are going up, does that and should that necessarily

correspond with the deep Christianisation of public life?

De-Christianisation. One has to be specific. Bishops in the House of

Lords, my personal view is that I completely agree. You would say yes.

I would get rid of bishops in the House of Lords. Their role is widely

seen as not having a sort of mandate. From religious communities.

What about having Christian assemblies and singing hymns in

schools, should that stay or go? Here is the problem. The problem

with it becoming a moment of reflection, it becomes so

generalised that it ends up having no contact whatsoever. It becomes

even more boring than it can be already. It is too sanitised. It

becomes a sort of mushy spiritualism where there isn't really any

content, that is my problem. I would prefer to have lots of different

forms of contribution. But not a sort of Esperanto of religion, which

is rather dull. You would like to see a plurality of representation,

religion, but still religious as opposed to nonreligious? As you

argued, many people are not religious at all. I take your point

about it being ground roots, although I am not sure in what form

that takes. Does this report is not reflect the vast numbers of people

who just don't think religion, in any sense, is important? It is

important, but not in the way the report describes it. Most of the

news items we have at the moment are the affect of religion and

religiosity on the world and politics. And that is essential,

that we up our religious literacy. It's pretty low in this country and

it's part of the reason we don't understand the world. If you look at

places, towns in this country that have high religious literacy they

often have good relationships between different faith communities.

Leicester is a really good example. Places like that are good. Do you

think the UK should still be thought of as a Christian country? When

people claim that... That is the bases, the history, the attrition --

tradition. It claimed to be a Protestant country to keep the

Catholics out from France, and so forth, and when people say it, I get

nervous. I think they are trying to usher in something. When the far

right say they are a Christian country, they mean they are not a

Muslim country. When people say not in my name, I agree with that. Would

you say it is still a Christian country? In the main, I would. Giles

is one of the vicars who read my bands at my wedding. Would you,

Andrea? I think there is the other element. Why is religion important?

Surely it is about finding your place in the world and the

community, and white are we looking for differences rather than

commonalities -- why are we? What about in schools? Faith schools are

divisive. People laud the fact that they get good results but you're

going in on the basis of your religion. In Northern Ireland they

have been trying to move away, unsuccessfully, in some instances

from segregation on religious lines. Are they a good thing? Yes, and for

this reason. We are different and we believe in different sorts of

things. The idea that we impose a similarity and command and control

of ethics and religion from the top is ridiculous. We need to have that

diversity in the education system. Tony Blair was a huge fan of the

faith school system and it really started under him, but if successive

governments are trying to have an egalitarian school system, is it

desirable? The scrutineers what they are teaching and how the students

come out. But bishops are less than 3% of the members of the House of

Lords and we should look at involving other religions in the

House of Lords rather than the hereditary peers. I think it's bad

religion. You think it is bad for the state, but I think it's bad her

religion for us up to the establishment. I think it takes off

the edge for us to be more concerned with dressing up and speaking out.

That is the problem with bishops in the House of Lords. The Church of

England says if the law on collective worship were repealed,

schools would risk losing a reflection of the full breadth of

human experience. Are they right? It is a nonsense of particular brand of

Christianity to be imposed on people. No one obeys the law. That

is clearly a nonsense that has to be changed. I prefer to see it go and

it become a mushy spiritualism. What about religious studies as a subject

at school? It has been compulsory up to GCSE level. Should it stay? I

would be happy for it to be opened up for the study of non-religions

and atheists and secularists. So many people are put off religion at

school. I would like there to be a living playing field and people be

put off atheism as well. -- level playing field. You are going to the

lowest common denominator then. The report also wants more nonreligious

slots on thought for the day on Radio 4. Does that make sense? My

problem is this. It does seem a bit like getting people who want to say

they hate football going on match of the day. It is a religious slot and

I think it should stay that way. But the sum onto, and rubbish religion

-- for someone to come on to rubbish religion would be nonsense on songs

of praise, and also one Thought Of The Day. What about more separation

between church and state? Are there other ways you would like to see it

happen on the basis of this report? You have the choice of swearing in

when you enter Parliament. Should you keep all of that? I would,

personally. No one tells you you have to turn around during prayers,

that was a surprise. It is to protect those behind. You turn

around and face the back of the benches. Nobody tells you before

this first time in the chamber. There are some strange customs. Are

you offended by them in any way? I haven't met anyone offended by it.

You have a choice not to be there if you are offended by that practice.

The truth is the disestablishment is coming in the future of the country

and nobody will give at the Parliamentary time it requires. The

MPs have more interesting and important things to do, but it will

come. Giles Fraser, thank you. Now let's take a look at what's

in store for us this week. David Cameron is today announcing a

major expansion of the government's shared-ownership scheme, which he

says will allow nearly 200,000 The European Council President,

Donald Tusk, is writing to EU leaders today to set out his

position on Britain's renegotiation. He'll say that plans to strip EU

migrants of their benefits could be On Wednesday, Jeremy Corbyn will

face David Cameron for The decision on whether to build

a third runway at Heathrow airport A cabinet committee formed to help

make the decision is due to meet And Jeremy Corbyn says he will

attend a fundraising dinner on Friday, organised

by the Stop the War Coalition. This is despite some of his own MPs

calling on him not to attend. Let's talk now to Isabel Hardman

from the Spectator and Rafael Behr Welcome. Are we going to get this

decision on Heath Row, or the direction of travel? First week

heard it would be delayed until next year but now we are told it will

happen before the end of the year. The official spokeswoman for the

Prime Minister said today we would get the clear direction by the end

of the year which sounds to me a little different to a clear

decision, but she did say we should not get too worried about semantics.

It may be that some sort of holding statement is issued. But we are

assured that there are meetings taking place over the next week that

means we will get a direction, whatever it means. It's going to be

difficult because the cabinet is split, and certainly the reports of

the delay would be centred around problems of pollution and air

quality. It's all a bit embarrassing, really. You remember

the Chancellor's Autumn Statement the other week and he said that we

are the builders. Such an important part of the agenda on paper that

they get off with infrastructure and are retooling the country, but we

have known for a decade that Britain, in theory, needs new

airport capacity and as soon as possible and the reality is that

there find political reasons why it's difficult to put it at Heathrow

Airport because our MPs near Heathrow Airport and then wanted

because their constituency don't want the noise of the overflights.

And one of those MPs wants to be the Mayor of London, Zac Goldsmith, so

it's hard to disentangle what is a practical and abroad strategic

reason to put it at Heathrow Airport or Gatwick, and what is just sort of

tactical calculations to avoid a split in the Conservative Party.

That is just a bad look for the government when they're trying to

suggest they have broader strategic infrastructure. We look forward to

hearing what the direction of travel is. It sounds like a fudge term.

Let's turn to the EU renegotiation, talking of potential fudging and

Donald Task and the letter going out to member states. The sticking point

is the same, that the one that could bring support the Prime Minister is

this moratorium on in work benefits. It is problematic to say the least.

This is why he has let the timetable slip. He had originally said that he

would hope to present his plan and agree it with EU leaders at the EU

Council summit in December but admitted last week that he cannot do

this and he will be looking at the February meeting to do it. As

Raphael says, the government keeps saying it is a government that

delivers, not just on infrastructure but also on renegotiation. At the

moment, you can see the Eurosceptics rubbing their hands with glee at

this being a government that does not seem to deliver on the

renegotiation as well as airport decisions. How will he be able to

dress up the renegotiation on the basis of the broad areas he wants a

deal on when Eurosceptics will say that there is no substance and he

hasn't achieved anything substantial? Some of them are almost

in the bag. There is the big symbolic point about exempting

Britain from closer union, which makes it sound like some great

federalising project. The signals we are getting from other continental

leaders is you can probably find a way around it. It does come down to

the specific point about migrant access to benefits, and the

technical problem with that is that you probably have to go to the

Lisbon Treaty and that can't be changed because it's about the fair

treatment of workers across the European Union. People have other

things to deal with on the continent, the migrant crisis,

Syria, and it's not on anyone's agenda to have a treaty

renegotiation, and if you do have that, other country leaders and

other populations will say, if we are all putting in the bid to change

the way the EU works, we have a few grievances of our own. What the

Prime Minister has to do is somehow turn around and say, I got a deal

and it's brilliant, now let's move on and discuss the wider issue of

whether Britain should be a member of the EU and that is a tricky bit

of footwork to exercise. Let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn attending a Stop

the War meeting despite advice not to do so. -- to do so. There does

seem to be a rift that is not going to go away within the Labour Party

any time soon. Both sides are becoming steadily more defiant, so

if Jeremy Corbyn were feeling weak, he might have decided he had a hot

date with his allotment that meant he could not have attended but he

says he will keep going. His critics have been very outspoken on the

airway, that they have been encouraging the abuse of MPs on

social media. They wrote an ill-advised post about the origins

of Islamic State which suggested that their worldview is not

necessarily something the Labour leader would want to align himself

with, but he is happy to. There is the broader point about the Labour

moderates, as they see themselves, what they want clarity, is whether

or not Jeremy Corbyn is happy for people who simply aren't in the

Labour Party to become part of the party by osmosis. There is party

differences. Obviously there will be some that don't have use MPs like,

but they want the sense Jeremy Corbyn that he is the leader of the

Labour Party and there is a boundary Way you support Labour MPs and

around the campaign there are other hard left parties, the Socialist

workers party, and Liberty, who have traditionally not been the Labour

Party. If Jeremy Corbyn is happy for them to dictate terms to Labour MPs

as part of an extra Parliamentary whipping operation on the hard left,

that's a big change in the structure of the Labour Party and the

moderates want clarity on whether that is part of the Jeremy Corbyn

agenda. On the point about showing strength here by not going for the

date with the allotment, is that what it is? Does Jeremy Corbyn feel

stronger to do that? Certainly. The old by-election at the end of last

week where expectations were low and I joined in those low expectations,

the fact that the Labour Party managed to hold a seat quite

uncomfortably and a lot of people turned out, there is a feeling that

punctuated the end of a difficult week and few weeks for the Labour

leader and now they can say, OK, we have proved that people will still

turn out for us and now other MPs who don't like Jeremy Corbyn, get

back in your box and let's make it work. That's the mood around the

operation of the moment. He is disinclined to yield to that

pressure right now. Thank you to both of you. Have a good week.

Well, let's talk a little more about Jeremy Corbyn and Stop the War

Joining us now from Momentum, the campaign group closely associated

Before I come to you, should Jeremy Corbyn step back from his

involvement with stop the war? We should not be snobbish about

allotments. But given some of the misguided statements about Paris

reaping the whirlwind and the disruption outside the Labour Party

office while we were trying to campaign to win the by-election.

There are concerns there. It is not my place as a backbench Labour MP to

dictate to the leader what he chooses to do. Some MPs have been

saying to Jeremy Corbyn that he should not be involved with the

organisation that says things that you outline. Everyone has to make

those choices. Jeremy's strategy seems to be the same as Ed Miliband,

reach out to the left, rather than the centre. It means engaging with

Stop The War more than the business community and I'm nervous that we

end up in the same position in Twenty20, which would be deeply

unfortunate for my constituents who need a Labour government. Listening

to both Neil Coyle, this is an organisation that is not the Labour

Party, so should the Labour leader B is closely involved with something

like Stop The War? I have come on here to speak about

Momentum first of all. We will come onto that. It is an interesting

discussion, Jeremy Corbyn or Ed Miliband should have reached out to

the business community, rather than grassroots organisations. The idea

that reaching out to the hard left and that whole terminology... He

said to the left, not hard left. It is to the people. Over the summer it

was mass mobilisation of people who felt disenchanted with the

increasingly unequal society. Increasing levels of homelessness,

poverty. A lot of the values in our society, young people in particular

feeling they are not tapping into what represents them. There is a new

mood. To present this in a dichotomous way is a

misrepresentation. Perhaps it is being presented that way because MPs

like Neil Coyle have come in for quite a lot of abuse and

intimidation. Talk us through what happened last week to you. Before

the vote on Syria there was abuse and threats that came through. I

don't hold Jeromy or Momentum momentum responsible -- Jeremy.

107,000 people e-mailed the Labour Party. Less than 1% of those e-mails

were read. Encouraging that tell your MP what to do atmosphere I

ended up with people who felt they could dictate to me what I should do

in Parliament. I have 107,000 constituents, less than 1000

supporting against the war. Some people felt they could tell me what

to do. Amongst those people, some threatened to stab, others

threatened to slap me. Because of my brilliant constituency, more people

offered to buy me a drink and I have had people who have offered security

on a voluntary basis. Is that the role of the people you have talked

about? To do that to MPs, put them under pressure in that way because

they don't agree on this issue over Syria? Absolutely not, I was

completely condemn abuse on the internet, trolling is horrible and I

am sorry you had to experience that. Taking the lead from Jeremy Corbyn

of making it about substance, politics, not about personalities

and not being personal ad attacking people, I would not condone that at

all. But, do you think that if Labour MPs are not representing the

views of their constituents or members of Momentum, this grassroots

organisation that is closely aligned on the left wing, if you like, of

the Labour Party, do you think there should be pressure for those MPs to

go and have people that better reflects the views of people in

Momentum? To answer your question about Momentum's role in providing

that, did someone think that providing a tool to say if you want

your voice heard on an issue which really matters, where people will

die as consequences of air strikes, to say if you feel strongly about

this issue, you can lobby this MP, your MP respectfully. Using a tool

provided by Momentum and you should explicitly keep it... It hasn't been

all respectful. A lot of it has, but not all of it. Of course. Internet

trolling is something that predates Momentum. It exists across all sorts

of society and the misogyny associated is unpleasant. Let's talk

about this deselection and reselection. Do you think MPs like

Neal who don't agree with you should be deselected as somebody else

reselected? -- Neil. That is not our responsibility. Lots of people have

said that Momentum would not campaign for deselection but it does

not try with the report about a Momentum event which was attended by

John McDonald, the Shadow Chancellor. The Lambeth branch

launch in Chuka Umunna's constituency. The leaflet given at

entry said Socialist party, formerly militant. We call for a vote of no

confidence in Chuka Umunna. Mandatory reselection is only a

challenge to those who refuse to carry out the wishes of the people.

Momentum Does support reselection and deselection of candidates.

Absolutely. I was not at the event on Thursday. This was from

conservative home, Mark Wallace. He is a conservative. He was there

clearly. Do you deny those leaflets were being handed out? I was not at

the event on Thursday but my understanding from speaking to

people who were, is that it was an event hosted by Momentum. Lambeth.

Some Socialist party people turned up. They were not invited.

Momentum's goal is for Labour to win the election in 2020 and build the

Labour Party and engage with grass roots. If a small section of people

came in, which I believed it happened... They were handing out

leaflets at the door. Are you saying it was hijacked? That is my

understanding. Do you condemn those leaflets and what they are saying

about entry into the Labour Party? It is not the place for non-Labour

Party members to campaign on the selection or deselection of

candidates. If those Socialist party people... What will Momentum do to

prevent other non-Labour Party taking over your event in future?

This is one example, but they are doing it all over the country. I

have been to many Momentum meetings and there is by and large a positive

and inclusive atmosphere where people are doing politics

differently. We have groups where someone is beating at the front

often and there is facilitation into small groups -- is speaking. It is

generally positive and inclusive. New Labour Party members often,

people who were previously disengaged or people of the Labour

Party. Answer the question, what is the aim? Walthamstow Labour

councillor. Stella Creasy Labour MP. She reports about intimidation to

her office staff. If Labour councillor suggested any MP who

supported the killing of innocents in this way should automatically go

through a ballot for reselection, is that councillor Ron? That is not

Momentum's position. We understand that, we have had Momentum on

before. But what are you doing to try to de-escalates what seems to be

happening at the behest of momentum Momentum Momentum events. It is a

tiny minority of what is going on, if you go to those events. Going

forward, there will be... Momentum Is a new organisation. It has come

out suddenly off the back of a campaign which mobilised a lot of

people. It is taking a while to build up that organisation. There

will be a clear statement about attendance of meetings and events

that are open to the public, open to everyone. These may be teething

problems. It may be a case, Tom Watson said Momentum were a bit of a

rabble, I will ask you if that is there or not. This is an

organisation who wants to make the most of the new members, new young

people engaged in politics. Which standard politics hasn't done. When

Jeremy won, I was hopeful that a lot of the momentum created by Momentum

would be carried forward and they would be genuine debate and

discussion. Unity in purpose. At the moment, that is not what we are

seeing. Labour councillors, not just MPs, the local level, Jeremy Corbyn

at local level is Labour councillors. They are being told

they need to set budgets for Momentum in Lewisham. Momentum Need

to do more to tackle those who pretend to represent Jeremy Corbyn

when they are actually another political party. You looked

surprised, are you surprised? I am not sure about that particular

incident. You are not aware of what Momentum are doing at local level? I

don't believe it was Momentum. It was widely reported, you do not seem

to know what is happening within Momentum, that is worrying.

Everything seems to be reported as Momentum and we are about mass

mobilisation, popular power. Would you accept you have not got control

of what is going on in your name? Not my name. No, Momentum. It is

growing as an organisation. We have set in place structures which will

ensure... You need to get on with it. This point about popular power

is interesting. Labour councillors are elected by the general public.

Labour MPs are selected and elected, it is not Momentum's place to say

that we are the representative of people, that is not who you are.

Momentum Is enabling people to come together and campaign on issues

which affect them. And also to aim towards building a more

compassionate, just and equal society which doesn't involve

trolling people, bullying people. society which doesn't involve

is more inclusive and representative. We will leave it

there on that positive note. Now this may be news to you,

but abuse and intimidation in In fact, before a West Yorkshire

by-election in 1872, people couldn't vote in secret, and this meant they

were often pressured to back And one

of the original ballot boxes used in that by-election is on display

in Pontefract, as Ros Ball reports. The historic market town

of Pontefract in West Yorkshire, famous for its old castle,

the site of many sieges during the 17th century English

Civil War and where King Richard II And, of course, Pontefract

cakes made from licorice. But this town's 1872 by-election

also deserves a place in history. to vote, could do so in a private

booth, much like we do today. Before the introduction,

the Ballot Act, that year, Either by a show of hands,

by making your choice out loud or This left the electorate wide

open to bribery and intimidation. At Pontefract Museum, they have the

real star of that 1872 by-election. This is one of the five original

boxes from the by-election. We have two in the museum service,

here. This one on display in the

Pontefract Museum is somewhat taller On the top you can see the red wax

seals, which were used to prove using the stamps used to make

Pontefract cakes. I understand you want me to cast

a vote? We have a small ballot paper here

to find out who your favourite In case you were wondering,

Liberal MP Hugh Childers Hmmm...

Which candidate? The BBC's own self-styled

Paisley interrogator? Or the smooth, daytime velvet

glove that hides an iron fist? Sorry, this is a private booth,

check your 1872 Ballot Act! I would have said there was no

contest, who would you have chosen in the secret poll? Whoever lets me

keep this mark. That is a good answer, you have been thinking about

that. Voter registration, are you worried? Not enough people will be

signed up for voter registration? I am not, personally. I know the

government had the campaign in the lead up to the 20 15th election.

There are more people registered. With the new registration, 96% have

been registered. The other 4% will be called nine times. There are

measures in place. There is a lot more money going into local

government. Are you reassured? I am not sure there is more money going

to local government but Southwark Council have done a lot to make sure

people are still on the ballot. We have 17,000 students and young

professionals moving in and out of the constituency, that is the big

risk. For the government to write off 1 million people off the ballot

paper just before the boundary review is very political. It is

propaganda. Briefly. We want complete transparency. If people can

move home and sort out... Why not have automatic registration? If

people can sort out their gasp, electric bill and council tax, it is

easy online, it is simple. Let's go to the quiz.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was, who does our guest of the day

Is it a) Margaret Thatcher? b) Enya?

c) Christine Lagarde? or d) Current Miss World, Rolene Strauss?

The answer is: b) Enya.

Andrea is a singer and songwriter and has compared herself to Enya

# There is only one choice # We must unite

# As one voice # We shall gain #

Have you ever had a number one? I haven't. I am releasing a song for

the Royal British Legion next year. You are still singing at least. For

charity, anyway. I won't ask you to sing, but I will

not ask. I'll be here

at noon tomorrow with all the big