08/12/2015 Daily Politics


08/12/2015

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP and author Nadine Dorries. They discuss the government's response to the floods and the latest on the UK's EU membership renegotiation.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

David Cameron's told us he'll negotiate a new relationship

:00:40.:00:41.

with the EU, but do his demands live up to his promises?

:00:42.:00:46.

40,000 homes in North West England are still without power

:00:47.:00:49.

as communities begin the clear up after the floods.

:00:50.:00:53.

The Environment Secretary says climate change is responsible.

:00:54.:00:56.

George Osborne cancelled cuts to tax credits in last month's spending

:00:57.:01:00.

review, but will the same families be hit when they

:01:01.:01:03.

And what's it like being a working class woman in the rarified

:01:04.:01:11.

With us for the whole of the programme today is the Conservative

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Welcome to the programme this morning.

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First this morning, we've become used to eye-catching statements

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from the Republic Presidential front-runner, Donald Trump.

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Last night he surpassed those with this line delivered to journalists

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in a press release and then to an audience of supporters

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Donald J Trump is calling for a total

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and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our

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country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.

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That was Donald Trump. How would you respond to that? Gosh, it's almost

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terrifying, isn't it, to think there is a possibility that this man could

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win the nomination and could end up being the president of the United

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States. I almost sends a tactic here because his whole campaign seems to

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be hinged on making sensational announcements. The frightening thing

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is, each time he makes one of these announcements, his popularity and

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poll rating seems to increase and that the frightening thing. I think

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what we need to watch very closely at what happens to his poll ratings

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after this. If his poll ratings continue to rise, after such a

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polemic and outrageous announcement, then that is actually quite worrying

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because although I say on one hand this man can never win the

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nomination, can never be the president of the USA, if his poll

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rating increases after that statement, then I think we need to

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worry. Jeb Bush, another nominee, said Donald Trump is unhinged. What

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sort of reaction do you think is required when you hear that sort of

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comment in order, as you say, to try and dampen down the popularity?

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Yeah, Jeb Bush, from the dynasty, well experienced in politics, his

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entire family were experienced in politics, he's someone you think

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would know how to respond appropriately. I don't think anybody

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actually knows how to deal with the phenomena at the moment that is this

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runaway success of Donald Trump. So, I think what Jeb Bush, I don't

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like the language, unhinged, I think there's different language she

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could've used, but to highlight the fact that Donald Trump's entire

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rhetoric is just sensationalist, for his own benefit, to serve himself.

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We will find out what happens fairly soon.

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Which of these figures is the odd one out?

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At the end of the show we'll see if Nadine knows the correct answer.

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Yesterday, the European Council President

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Donald Tusk wrote to EU leaders to update them on the progress

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He says that David Cameron has provided a significant

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and far-reaching agenda for discussion at December's meeting

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But how does Mr Tusk's response to British demands stack up

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against promises made in the Conservative manifesto?

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In May, the Conservatives said, "We will not let the integration of

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the eurozone jeopardise the integrity of the Single Market

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And the manifesto called for the EU "to break down the remaining

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Donald Tusk says there is a "very strong determination" to

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boost competitiveness across Europe, and that a solution can be reached

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to ensure no discrimination against non-eurozone countries.

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What's more contentious is the manifesto promise to say "no" to the

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concept of "ever closer union" - one of the EU's founding principles.

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But Donald Tusk says that "ever closer union" already "allows

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for various paths of integration for different countries."

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The big sticking point is over migrant benefits.

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The manifesto makes some very clear promises about what David Cameron

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EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit should

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There should be a new four-year residency

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If an EU migrant's child is living abroad, they should not receive

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EU jobseekers should not be able to claim any job-seeking benefits

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If jobseekers haven't found a job within six months,

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And when new countries are admitted to the EU, free movement

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of people should not apply until their economies converge more

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Donald Tusk says a change to migrant benefits is the "most delicate"

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demand from the UK, and one that will require "substantive political

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He admits that there is "presently no consensus" among other

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Well, last night George Osborne was in New York, where he was

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Here's what the Chancellor had to say.

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It's a complicated and robust negotiation, but the information

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that's been released today by the European Council shows we're making

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much more progress than people would have imagined in getting agreement

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across member states to address these British issues.

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As I say, ultimately, it will be for the British people to

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We're joined now by former Conservative MP Laura Sandys, who

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Welcome to you. Do you think what Donald Tusk says in his letter bodes

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well for David Cameron at the European Council discussions this

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month? I think he sounds very positive about the majority of the

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requests and I think it sounds as if there is strong consensus. There's

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been a lot of work done in the background to make sure that in each

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of the capitals around Europe there has been greater convergence. I

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don't think we are so out of step. Obviously the last issue about

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benefit is going to be an issue and that needs to be more negotiation,

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more diplomacy. You say there is strong consensus but there is no

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consensus as Donald Tusk on that. The stickler is going to be on

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migrant benefits because other EU leaders regarded as the scum in a

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tree. Other EU leaders have said there's no negotiation to be on

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that. I think there is and also already there has been quite a lot

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of flexibility on this issue about sending child benefit abroad for

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children who are not actually resident in the UK. But what about

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the four year in work benefits? It either discriminatory or not. I

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think there needs to be negotiation on that. Where? The point is we have

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different countries wanting different things so the idea was no

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consensus doesn't mean to say all European countries are against what

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we are proposing. You have to have an agreement on it. Of course.

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Things are tough, it's not an easy process and it's not easy to get

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changed. However, I think we've established quite a lot of the key

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demands and I think we are moving in the right direction. On the basis of

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a letter where he says there's no consensus and bearing in mind this

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meeting is happening very shortly, whatever chance the David Cameron

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getting a moratorium agreement on benefits for migrant workers for

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four years. I don't think it's huge. I think his request is reasonable

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but already having water down from their original intent, from ten down

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to four now, we will end up almost a no platform, no basis for David

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Cameron to come to Parliament and say, here is a re-negotiation. It's

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entirely sensible for the four year breakdown, no benefits to be paid to

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those whose children don't even live in the UK. It's all entirely

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sensible stuff. The letter says no consensus. If David Cameron comes

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back to Parliament with absolutely no consensus, then I think it's not

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going to bode well for going forward with a re-negotiation. If that is

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the deal, and the deal is not include any sort of ban on in work

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benefits, will you be voting out? Absolutely. Nothing will convince

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you? From my own perspective, a very large parts of Europe are in

:10:12.:10:15.

complete financial crisis. We have a huge problem with immigration. This

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only problem is, we spent ?350 million a day there. We could build

:10:21.:10:24.

a new hospital with that every week. You're not going to be convinced

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come what may, even if he does secure that. What about your

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colleagues who are waverers? Will increase the chances of them voting

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to leave? No, many of them will be very concerned be gone from ten main

:10:37.:10:40.

points we wanted to discuss down to four and even those four are now

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falling apart. I hope, Laura, the Prime Minister can come back and

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say, here is a package I have renegotiated, this is what I can

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bring to the table, but I don't think other member states are going

:10:53.:10:56.

to do it. I think whatever the point Mr came back with, the Dean has been

:10:57.:11:01.

clear about her positions I'm not sure it would ever be enough for

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some Eurosceptics which is fine. There are going to be a lot of

:11:05.:11:07.

others who might have been persuaded that won't be if you can't get

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anything on those in work benefits. Every single time the UK has gone in

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and batted for UK interests in Europe, we have been very

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successful. It might not be completely the four options on the

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table, but there are still movement on the benefits issue when it comes

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to children overseas, there will be some movement on it. It might not be

:11:30.:11:34.

able to get total consensus in the next two or three weeks, but we are

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talking about a February decision and that requires a lot more

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diplomacy. Just to move it on slightly, the real price would be to

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bring down levels of immigration. Do you think anything David Cameron is

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asking for will reduce net migration into this country? There is

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potential but those two issues are just highlighted, there is potential

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in what he's asking, people may not want to emigrate to this country as

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economic migrants that there is not the work there and they don't get

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the benefits they thought they may be able to to support themselves

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well become established in this country but, those two points will

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not be, even if we get to February, it will not be anything like enough.

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That's not a re-negotiation. It's not a concession, package. But for

:12:22.:12:25.

people who want to come out, none of it was ever going to be enough. What

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we're going to end up with is, if you look at the public, the public

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don't believe we have a strong voice in Europe. Actually, if we go back

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to the facts, and with a re-negotiation David Cameron is

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doing now, it shows we do. It's totally important, our relationship

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with Europe, it's been a non-euro country. Let's move on to that. As a

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non-euro country, let's look at Donald Tusk's I game, because he

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says there are parts of integration regarding closer union but that's a

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fob off to David Cameron, isn't it? We already accept different

:13:06.:13:08.

countries move at different paces to ever closer union. There doesn't

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seem to be anything more given to David Cameron on that particular

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request. No, I think there will be because there's a lot of detail

:13:18.:13:21.

behind us. What we are absolutely key about is we should not have come

:13:22.:13:25.

as a non-euro country, be discriminated against by decisions

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made by the euro countries. That is something absolutely crucial. We've

:13:31.:13:34.

also got to the wider benefits here. The issue about migration, I want to

:13:35.:13:38.

know which option stops migration because if we end up still in the

:13:39.:13:44.

single market, we will have to have free movement but we won't be at the

:13:45.:13:48.

table re-negotiating like we are now. We will be outside kicking our

:13:49.:13:54.

heels. How low would levels of immigration or even net migration be

:13:55.:13:57.

if we came out of the EU? I don't think anyone has made an analysis

:13:58.:14:02.

prediction in terms of numbers. That is one of the big claims by

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campaigners it would come down. It travels down to tens or 20s or

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thousands. Getting greater control of our borders is possibly the first

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step in controlling. It wouldn't stop people wanting to come and work

:14:17.:14:21.

here and would you want that? Of course, I trained as a nurse in the

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NHS and of course we would not want to stop people coming here to work

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but we want people who can contribute to the economy and have

:14:28.:14:30.

skills. There's point system already. We also have a situation of

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hundreds of thousands of people who are in the country as illegal

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immigrants and we don't even know where they are. We don't have

:14:40.:14:46.

control of our borders. Illegal immigrants are not European

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migrants. But how do we know that because they are illegal? We don't

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know where they are. Fundamentally, if they are legal, anybody with free

:14:56.:14:58.

movement across Europe are by definition legal. We don't know who

:14:59.:15:06.

they are. And where they came from. But they're not European otherwise

:15:07.:15:11.

they would not be illegal. The issue is 50% of migration be having this

:15:12.:15:15.

country comes from outside Europe and that is something we can take

:15:16.:15:21.

of. I actually think we are in an invidious position, Northern Ireland

:15:22.:15:25.

two, if we came out but also we would move the jungle in Calais to

:15:26.:15:31.

Dover so we would be dealing with these things rather than in the

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collective weight where we are actually managing a very complicated

:15:35.:15:35.

international migration problem. Is it the most important thing for

:15:36.:15:53.

the leaders of the EU when it is very fragile? I would like to see

:15:54.:15:58.

Europe much more forward thinking about the migration problem.

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Ultimately, what they need to understand is as leaving Europe is

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an absolutely extra central threat to Europe itself, and I think they

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are incredibly omitted to deliver a deal for us but also for them --

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existential. Thank you. Thousands

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of people struggling with flooding in Cumbria and Lancashire have been

:16:18.:16:18.

warned they could face further 16 severe flood warnings are

:16:19.:16:21.

still in force in the region. Yesterday the Prime Minister

:16:22.:16:25.

visited the worst hit areas. This time apparently wearing ?12

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wellies from Asda after his ?89 The issue was also debated

:16:28.:16:29.

in the House of Commons It is not enough for the

:16:30.:16:33.

Prime Minister and the Environment Secretary to pledge to deal with

:16:34.:16:46.

the devastation and damage caused. We do need a commitment

:16:47.:16:49.

from them also to do all they can to The Environment Secretary's

:16:50.:16:52.

predecessor was, as we know, not someone who is prepared to

:16:53.:16:56.

acknowledge the risks posed Does this Secretary of State agree

:16:57.:16:59.

that extreme weather events are unfortunately increasingly a feature

:17:00.:17:04.

of British weather and government The Honourable Lady is absolutely

:17:05.:17:06.

right about the extreme weather As we say, it is consistent with

:17:07.:17:11.

the trends we are seeing Climate change is factored in to all

:17:12.:17:17.

the modelling work the Environment Agency does but clearly, in the

:17:18.:17:24.

light of this extreme weather, we are going to have to look at that

:17:25.:17:27.

modelling and make sure it's fit My view is that it's really

:17:28.:17:31.

important that we remain fair to people right across the country,

:17:32.:17:38.

and the people of Cumbria understand why those decisions are being made

:17:39.:17:41.

and also get the proper protection Liz Truss ending that report there.

:17:42.:18:02.

Liz Truss says freak weather conditions are the result of climate

:18:03.:18:05.

change. Is that the settled view on the Tory backbenches? Gosh, I don't

:18:06.:18:12.

know if it is a settled view. There is so much discussion about this. So

:18:13.:18:18.

many experts' opinion, so many contradictory opinions, so many

:18:19.:18:22.

newspaper headlines. I did think anybody is 100% convinced. I don't

:18:23.:18:28.

have to agree with everything they are saying. That is right, so you

:18:29.:18:34.

don't think it is down to climate change? I don't know. I read

:18:35.:18:39.

somewhere in the 1500 in England it rained every day for ten years. I

:18:40.:18:44.

don't know. I know other town in the 1600 switch was completely under

:18:45.:18:49.

flood. You don't sound convinced. We do have freak weather conditions. We

:18:50.:18:54.

do have climate change happening obviously. I don't know what is

:18:55.:18:58.

happening with Storm Desmond, obviously. I don't know what is

:18:59.:19:01.

the result of climate change or is it a freak weather condition? I'm

:19:02.:19:07.

sure that building on flood plains, climate change, many other factors

:19:08.:19:10.

contributed flooding and what happens as a result of flooding.

:19:11.:19:15.

Should we accept it and live with it or should the government be spending

:19:16.:19:19.

more money and looking at increasing the flood defences which already

:19:20.:19:24.

exist? Absolutely. When we see pictures like we have seen this

:19:25.:19:29.

week, and what happens is, that we see different parts of the country

:19:30.:19:32.

every time something happens. I think what we have to do is to

:19:33.:19:36.

accept that maybe flooding is a part of life in this century and wherever

:19:37.:19:40.

we know there will be flood issues, make sure the money is put into it.

:19:41.:19:45.

It will not be once in a hundred years which is what the government

:19:46.:19:51.

has said in the past. No, it is happening more frequently. It may be

:19:52.:19:56.

a result of climate change. We have increased the budget. The government

:19:57.:19:59.

has increased the budget in real terms, both year-on-year, and I

:20:00.:20:03.

think what we need to do is to make sure we look at what has happened in

:20:04.:20:09.

the floods this time. One of the main problems is the water is not

:20:10.:20:13.

receding as much as it could do, because the measures that were put

:20:14.:20:16.

in place to prevent the floods in the first place, to do a good job,

:20:17.:20:21.

apparently, have now stopped the water receding as quickly as it

:20:22.:20:24.

could. I think there are lessons will stop.

:20:25.:20:29.

Increased costs, software problems, delays.

:20:30.:20:31.

It's been a tricky journey for Universal Credit since

:20:32.:20:33.

Iain Duncan Smith set out his vision for welfare reform back in 2010.

:20:34.:20:37.

And with George Osborne still planning to make ?12 billion worth

:20:38.:20:39.

of savings to the welfare bill by 2020, some argue that

:20:40.:20:42.

Universal Credit will end up hitting those very people cheering

:20:43.:20:44.

the Chancellor's decision to axe cuts to tax credits.

:20:45.:20:46.

So what difference will Universal Credit really make?

:20:47.:20:48.

Actually, Iain Duncan Smith was more ambitious than the Spice Girls, he

:20:49.:21:18.

wants six to become one. Six benefits into Universal Credit. He

:21:19.:21:27.

says it is a way of making work pay so that people do not see their

:21:28.:21:31.

benefits drop off when they start working. At the moment it is being

:21:32.:21:36.

offered in three quarters of job centres. People on Universal Credit

:21:37.:21:41.

are more likely to be in work than on Jobseeker's Allowance. 100 people

:21:42.:21:47.

on JSA who go into work, 113 going for Universal Credit. It is a

:21:48.:21:54.

remarkable figure. There are currently 141,000 people on

:21:55.:21:58.

Universal Credit. Each week, nearly 6000 people start a new claim. The

:21:59.:22:03.

government wants to roll it out to 7 million people. There is broad

:22:04.:22:06.

support for the principle of Universal Credit, but Labour says

:22:07.:22:11.

things may not be as they seem. Not least because of the U-turn on tax

:22:12.:22:17.

credits. I have listened to the concerns. I hear and understand

:22:18.:22:21.

them, and because there is an improvement in the public finances,

:22:22.:22:26.

the simplest thing to do is not to faze these changes in, but to avoid

:22:27.:22:31.

them altogether. Tax credits are being phased out anyway as we

:22:32.:22:36.

introduce Universal Credit. We heard the Chancellor talking

:22:37.:22:39.

about the fact that tax credits would not go ahead will stop what we

:22:40.:22:45.

did not hear about is that Universal Credit cuts will still continue.

:22:46.:22:49.

Families who are affected will have a lower income from the government.

:22:50.:22:54.

That is due to the fact they are reducing the work allowance. The

:22:55.:22:58.

work allowance is the amount a claimant can earn before their

:22:59.:23:02.

benefits start being reduced. Some critics worry that the marginal

:23:03.:23:08.

reduction rate is still high. It could prove a disincentive to

:23:09.:23:14.

decrease your hours. Who better to ask for clarification than the man

:23:15.:23:19.

who came up with the system. Under the existing system, some people

:23:20.:23:23.

could lose huge sums of money as they move from 16 to 17 hours.

:23:24.:23:29.

Somewhat heavily subsidised at 16 hours. We have put in transitional

:23:30.:23:32.

protection because they would never get the same money as they would on

:23:33.:23:39.

Universal Credit. At 17, 18 or 19 hours, they are better off and below

:23:40.:23:42.

those hours they are better off on tax credits. In some cases your pen

:23:43.:23:48.

marginal reduction rates of 95p in a pound and this is all part of the

:23:49.:23:52.

process of making welfare work and it is about making sure we save

:23:53.:23:58.

money in welfare by getting people back to work. We do not -- it is

:23:59.:24:02.

about getting the deficit reduced. If we do not then we will not have

:24:03.:24:13.

as many people in work. According to IDS, it is the only way to be.

:24:14.:24:18.

That was a Lee Price reporting there. -- any price.

:24:19.:24:22.

We're joined now by the Work and Pensions Minister,

:24:23.:24:24.

Justin Tomlinson and the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Owen Smith.

:24:25.:24:28.

According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Universal Credit

:24:29.:24:35.

means a worse deal for 2.6 million working families. These families

:24:36.:24:39.

will receive ?1600 less than they would have done under the current

:24:40.:24:44.

tax credit system. Is this your government's idea of helping working

:24:45.:24:49.

people? In the report they acknowledge that is a static

:24:50.:24:54.

analysis. It does not look at rising wages, the increase in the personal

:24:55.:24:58.

tax threshold, it is taking a like-for-like today but it is not

:24:59.:25:03.

today, it is going forwards. This will be removing artificial

:25:04.:25:09.

barriers, it is providing a personal adviser to provide help to

:25:10.:25:13.

navigate. But on the figures that people can claim, particularly new

:25:14.:25:18.

claimants, that number of families will lose ?1600 less, just looking

:25:19.:25:22.

at those figures alone, that you cannot guarantee to families. But

:25:23.:25:29.

that is a static analysis if it was introduced today. But it is over a

:25:30.:25:34.

number of years, by which time the increase in wages... But you don't

:25:35.:25:38.

know that those 2.6 million families will have increased wages or benefit

:25:39.:25:47.

from the other things. We know the national living wages coming in, we

:25:48.:25:47.

are seeing an economy creating more jobs are more hours for people to

:25:48.:25:51.

work, doubling of childcare and the fact you will have a personal

:25:52.:25:55.

adviser who can help you navigate these things. At the moment we have

:25:56.:25:59.

a complex chaotic benefit system where understandably people are

:26:00.:26:02.

having to deal with that rather than focusing on being able to get into

:26:03.:26:07.

work and removing those barriers, the Secretary of State said those

:26:08.:26:11.

people are stuck at 16 hours, it is not good for businesses. But a

:26:12.:26:15.

single parent with one child on a part-time Living Wage will be ?2800

:26:16.:26:25.

a year worse off under Universal Credit. That is true. It is true

:26:26.:26:29.

that they will be ?2800 a year off in terms of their benefit. But by

:26:30.:26:31.

the time they have gone through that system... It will make up ?2800?

:26:32.:26:41.

People once they progress in work will be able to keep more money. It

:26:42.:26:49.

will not be ?2800. There is an increase in the personal tax

:26:50.:26:53.

threshold, an increase in the Dublin of childcare. It will provide a less

:26:54.:26:57.

complicated more stable system which supports people, not just in

:26:58.:27:01.

financial terms but with a personal adviser to help them navigate. Will

:27:02.:27:05.

they be better off or worse off, that single parent with one child,

:27:06.:27:11.

will they be better off? We will see as the changes come forward. What

:27:12.:27:17.

I'm trying to get you to admit is there will be losers. The Institute

:27:18.:27:33.

for Fiscal Studies has said there will be losers. I take on board what

:27:34.:27:35.

you say about the transitional arrangement and the Living Wage will

:27:36.:27:38.

go up and there will be extra childcare, but it will not make up

:27:39.:27:40.

2008 hundred pounds. George Osborne's cancelling of this tax

:27:41.:27:43.

credit cuts, has been pushed further down the line onto new claimants who

:27:44.:27:46.

will be worse off. They may be less worse off but they will still be

:27:47.:27:48.

worse off. The current -- a couple on the national Living Wage will be

:27:49.:27:57.

3000 pounds worse off. Going back to the tax credits, they were saying we

:27:58.:28:01.

understand why changes are coming forward but you have to allow extra

:28:02.:28:06.

supports, extra childcare, the changes to the rise in wages and

:28:07.:28:14.

other changes to filter through. Crucially, people will get

:28:15.:28:17.

personalised support, the artificial barriers are removed and we have

:28:18.:28:20.

already seen with the 8000 people who were sampled, 86% are now

:28:21.:28:26.

feeling they can go and get extra work. This is making a huge

:28:27.:28:32.

difference to people. Let's take it in the round. You have still got ?3

:28:33.:28:36.

billion worth of savings you want to make from the welfare bill in 2020,

:28:37.:28:41.

and it has to come from somewhere, but you are still picking the

:28:42.:28:46.

pockets of working families. You are working on the assumption that we

:28:47.:28:50.

are always having to take money from people. By taking people off

:28:51.:28:54.

benefits, helping them pay tax into the system, this is beneficial for

:28:55.:29:00.

the individual, beneficial for the economy... But not if you're losing

:29:01.:29:05.

money. The government said people currently claiming tax credits would

:29:06.:29:09.

be protected, protected from what? Protected from the new system of a

:29:10.:29:14.

shift on to Universal Credit. By admitting they are being protected,

:29:15.:29:17.

you are admitting other people will be much worse off under Universal

:29:18.:29:22.

Credit. That is because you are looking at that could 16 hour cliff

:29:23.:29:26.

edge approach. We will be smoothing that out so that every extra hour

:29:27.:29:30.

you will work, you will keep more money. You say that but actually,

:29:31.:29:36.

single parents must work at least 16 hours a week if they claim working

:29:37.:29:41.

tax credits. Under Universal Credit, single parents. To lose their

:29:42.:29:50.

benefit once they have worked the benefit -- ten hours. A single

:29:51.:29:58.

parent will start to lose their benefits are just ?5,000 under the

:29:59.:30:03.

new system. That is a massive cliff edge. You are highlighting the

:30:04.:30:08.

problem at the moment, there are six different benefits, highly

:30:09.:30:11.

complicated, people are struggling to navigate this complicated system.

:30:12.:30:15.

We will provide a simple system which supports people as they

:30:16.:30:19.

progress in work, but only with the childcare provision you have

:30:20.:30:22.

highlighted, rising wages, more jobs, more hours, having that

:30:23.:30:26.

adviser who can navigate you through that system, signpost you if you

:30:27.:30:34.

need extra training and making sure people get the benefits they are

:30:35.:30:37.

entitled to. There will be a 2 tier system.

:30:38.:30:42.

There will be those that start claiming if their circumstances

:30:43.:30:47.

change they will be identified as new claimants starting under

:30:48.:30:51.

Universal Credit will be worse off. You highlight the point about people

:30:52.:30:55.

circumstances changing. But you are not highlighting that. You won't

:30:56.:31:02.

have to wait to get support. This will be good of you have a

:31:03.:31:05.

fluctuating health issue, your hours change week to week, personal

:31:06.:31:10.

adviser to signpost you. This is a broadly supported scheme, a huge

:31:11.:31:14.

change which is being done in a controlled manner and at helping

:31:15.:31:18.

people who want to work more. Do you support Universal Credit? Yes, it's

:31:19.:31:23.

a really good idea. If you weather system which could sympathise six

:31:24.:31:29.

benefits. Unfortunately, it doesn't do the second piece, the job, which

:31:30.:31:34.

is make work pay. He can't slip away from the truth that you've outlined

:31:35.:31:38.

very clearly that against the current system, they are going to

:31:39.:31:42.

make ?10 billion worth of savings, they announce it on Friday last week

:31:43.:31:46.

and that money is going to come from people in work, out of the ?3

:31:47.:31:52.

billion a year change for the work allowance. If you are a single

:31:53.:31:56.

mother with two children working full-time on the minimum wage, you

:31:57.:32:00.

will be ?3000 worse off. It's exactly the amount of money they

:32:01.:32:04.

were going to save and tax credits. If you are in favour of Universal

:32:05.:32:08.

Credit and accept it's a complicated system, there has to be some sort of

:32:09.:32:12.

cut-off point. If you're going to make it more generous, which I

:32:13.:32:16.

presume is what you're saying, you're going to spend more on

:32:17.:32:20.

welfare? First of all, let's be clear, are we talking about welfare

:32:21.:32:24.

or support for people in work because that is what we are

:32:25.:32:27.

debating, not supporting people out of work. People think supported on

:32:28.:32:32.

low wages. That Bill will go up under Labour? You will put it up.

:32:33.:32:39.

No, the bill has gone up under the Tories. It's not fair to say the

:32:40.:32:47.

bill would not go up under your party. We would protect these

:32:48.:32:51.

people, we've campaigned for a full reversal of the tax credit cut and

:32:52.:32:56.

we got it, we are now campaigning for a full reversal of the Universal

:32:57.:33:00.

Credit cut. Working people the support, we will put that money back

:33:01.:33:06.

in if we were in power. We are crystal clear about that. Where

:33:07.:33:11.

would you get that ?3 billion of savings you said in the election you

:33:12.:33:14.

are going to reform the welfare bill? And you're not. Had I been

:33:15.:33:20.

Chancellor, unfortunately we did not get the chance to set the budget, I

:33:21.:33:25.

would've taken the extra ?27 billion he had in tax receipts and put that

:33:26.:33:28.

towards this relief. I might not have had a ?10 billion projected

:33:29.:33:35.

surplus at the end of the spending period, but it would make different

:33:36.:33:39.

political choices to use money in the system to support working

:33:40.:33:42.

people. That's a different choice the Tories made. The one choice the

:33:43.:33:47.

Tories made which outstripped labour and Ed Miliband Microsoft, they put

:33:48.:33:51.

the living wage up much higher. They beat you on that. It's not a

:33:52.:33:58.

question of who beat too. It's important for families. Why doesn't

:33:59.:34:04.

that count in this argument over welfare changes. If Justin Tomlinson

:34:05.:34:07.

is right in terms of a living wage going up and there's more childcare,

:34:08.:34:11.

that will bridge the gap to making people work a bit harder and a bit

:34:12.:34:17.

longer at getting more money. If it would, I would be supporting these

:34:18.:34:21.

changes but the truth is, Justin was not being straightforward. The ISS

:34:22.:34:25.

are factored in all of these things, except for the change to 85% of

:34:26.:34:32.

childcare costs being covered for three-year-olds and four-year-olds,

:34:33.:34:35.

it's a maximum benefit of ?700 if your child is three or four. But you

:34:36.:34:42.

will still be losing around ?3000 a year so does not make up for it and

:34:43.:34:47.

no way Iain Duncan Smith can cut the figures. The truth is working

:34:48.:34:50.

families are losing out and they would not be under Labour. The key

:34:51.:34:55.

point is, a lot of this is going forward into the future so we'll

:34:56.:35:00.

have to see what happens. 8000 people are on Universal Credit now

:35:01.:35:06.

against 8000 people on jobseeker's allowance. 86% felt they could not

:35:07.:35:14.

increase their working hours. 36% have gone into work. We are moving

:35:15.:35:19.

those barriers. We have a complex system. It's about the growing

:35:20.:35:23.

dynamic of the economy and something very important. Were you pleased the

:35:24.:35:28.

Chancellor cancelled that cuts to tax credits in the Autumn

:35:29.:35:31.

Statement? Absolutely because I did not vote for it. How money people

:35:32.:35:37.

have claimed credit, the Labour Party, Conservative backbenchers,

:35:38.:35:39.

the media, everybody is claiming credit for it. I'm not claiming

:35:40.:35:47.

credit. You just did, you said you removed it as a result of your

:35:48.:35:51.

campaigning. We now need to campaign to get the Universal Credit changed.

:35:52.:35:52.

Thank you. How in touch are those in the

:35:53.:35:55.

upper echelons of British politics Well back in 2012 our guest of the

:35:56.:35:58.

day, Nadine Dorries, made headlines when she used this programme to

:35:59.:36:02.

speak her mind about the two men Unfortunately, I think that, not

:36:03.:36:05.

only are Cameron and Osborne two posh boys who don't know the price

:36:06.:36:10.

of milk, but they are two arrogant posh boys who show no remorse, no

:36:11.:36:15.

contrition and no passion to want to understand the lives of others

:36:16.:36:20.

and that is their real crime. There is actually talk now that

:36:21.:36:26.

Cameron may not even go into the next election as Prime Minister

:36:27.:36:29.

because he has become so remote, so elite and so distant and so

:36:30.:36:33.

lacking in ability to compromise. It almost seems like he finds it

:36:34.:36:36.

impossible to put out a hand to actually really understand

:36:37.:36:38.

what it is other people go through. And we're joined now by the Labour

:36:39.:36:47.

MP Jess Phillips. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Let's

:36:48.:36:58.

look at those statistics. 32% of MPs going to private school, is that

:36:59.:37:03.

surprising? Not at all. How representative of the public would

:37:04.:37:08.

you say your cabinet is? I don't think Parliament is representative

:37:09.:37:12.

of the general public. I don't think MPs, their life experiences, the way

:37:13.:37:16.

they think, the way they vote. That's across the house, not just in

:37:17.:37:21.

my party. The same in the Shadow Cabinet? I think the Shadow Cabinet

:37:22.:37:26.

is probably more representative but it's something that could be wagered

:37:27.:37:30.

every single party in this place, every single group. This morning, we

:37:31.:37:36.

were both on the childcare Bill committee and I could speak

:37:37.:37:38.

specifically from my experiences of having some of the benefits and

:37:39.:37:43.

childcare problems and I think that the people sat opposite me were

:37:44.:37:46.

confounded because they can't argue with my personal experiences. Chloe,

:37:47.:37:53.

also on the committee, I don't think any of them had children in

:37:54.:37:56.

childcare which is one not argue to be fair. You made very good points

:37:57.:38:01.

and it a very good speech and I challenge anybody to read it because

:38:02.:38:05.

it was fascinating. There are only some of us, I'm the same, who can

:38:06.:38:09.

come to Parliament, who know what it's like to have been hungry. I

:38:10.:38:14.

remember hiding under the sink in our council has and my mum will kill

:38:15.:38:18.

me if I'm watching this, from the rent man because the rent man used

:38:19.:38:23.

to come and we didn't have the money to pay the rent because my dad had

:38:24.:38:28.

his feet amputated. He was off work on long-term sick and they were not

:38:29.:38:31.

benefit payments then. We know what it's like to struggle and I think

:38:32.:38:36.

Jess this morning has articulated their own struggles as a working

:38:37.:38:40.

parent. You grew up about 100 miles or so or less from each other. You

:38:41.:38:46.

describe it as working class families. Why do you now sit here

:38:47.:38:49.

representing different sides of the political debate? I can't imagine

:38:50.:39:04.

why Medina sits on that side. -- Medina. She is considerably more

:39:05.:39:11.

poor than mine. My own experience of poverty came in my adult life, to be

:39:12.:39:14.

truthful. My parents were very working class. My childhood was not

:39:15.:39:21.

uncomfortable, but my own experiences came when I have my own

:39:22.:39:27.

children. Right to buy is what sealed it for me. One of the very

:39:28.:39:32.

first policies. That's when it came in, 1997. We lived in a council

:39:33.:39:36.

house and were given the opportunity to buy it and it was a step out of

:39:37.:39:42.

poverty onto the ladder which was just amazing because everybody

:39:43.:39:47.

started planting their gardens, painting their fences, painting

:39:48.:39:50.

their front doors, improving their house. It made people aspirational

:39:51.:39:54.

and gave people pride to own their own house. The think Labour needs to

:39:55.:39:58.

be more aspirational? Do you think in order to capture people like the

:39:59.:40:04.

Dean and others, you need to be more aspirational? That word means

:40:05.:40:08.

nothing any more because get talked about so much of the Labour Party

:40:09.:40:12.

doesn't need as though it got the people at the bottom in the top.

:40:13.:40:16.

There's a huge swathe of a country which exists in the middle and it

:40:17.:40:20.

would put myself in that category. Now I'm at the top of the person who

:40:21.:40:23.

I was talking about in the committee, was a middle person. I

:40:24.:40:28.

think that the Labour Party don't talk about that enough. With regard

:40:29.:40:33.

to right to buy, you would be very lucky now in the same situation you

:40:34.:40:36.

would get a council house because of right to buy. Whilst your

:40:37.:40:43.

aspiration... And my granny brought her council has and are not adequate

:40:44.:40:49.

size people who did that, although my father criticised her at the

:40:50.:40:53.

time, there is a -2 aspiration and those people now can't aspire to

:40:54.:40:57.

have a home. But it's learning from those policies because the big

:40:58.:41:01.

mistake about that policy in that time was not ploughing the money

:41:02.:41:04.

which came in into building more council houses but that's not the

:41:05.:41:08.

case today because with right to buy and other policies the government

:41:09.:41:11.

bring in, there is a criteria that money will go back into funding will

:41:12.:41:14.

council houses and it's a big problem. That is the claim certainly

:41:15.:41:20.

but you previously called David Cameron and a George Osborne

:41:21.:41:24.

arrogant posh boys. They don't have the price of milk. They've done

:41:25.:41:27.

quite well despite that. They have, yes. The mail on Sunday wrote a

:41:28.:41:33.

headline which I had nothing to do with. Does it still matter?

:41:34.:41:42.

Basically, David Cameron came the leader of the party exactly ten

:41:43.:41:48.

years ago. Ten years ago yesterday. I think he's travelled a long road

:41:49.:41:53.

and is certainly a different person today than he was ten years ago. I

:41:54.:41:58.

think that, today, I wouldn't make those comments. Really? I would. I'm

:41:59.:42:07.

not including George Osborne in that comment and I think David Cameron is

:42:08.:42:11.

someone who is now, from my own experience, as a Prime Minister,

:42:12.:42:16.

when we went into the election, I was actually quite pleased he was

:42:17.:42:20.

the person. Do you think George Osborne is out of touch? I'm not

:42:21.:42:25.

going to make any comments. I think... Could he be the next

:42:26.:42:34.

leader? I would say the answer would be no. Over? No. So George Osborne

:42:35.:42:43.

is not made that journey in your mind David Cameron has. He still

:42:44.:42:47.

privileged and out of touch in your mind? George Osborne has spent the

:42:48.:42:52.

last ten giving sweeties to conservative backbenchers and Labour

:42:53.:42:58.

Party members. Buying friends. Giving out the jobs. He's run out of

:42:59.:43:05.

jobs to give people. He spent ten years buying the backbenchers and

:43:06.:43:11.

the frontbenchers, two, so that one day they will vote for George

:43:12.:43:15.

Osborne to be leader. If that happens, then I think what we need

:43:16.:43:20.

to do really, in all parties, is look at how the political system

:43:21.:43:25.

works, because I don't think it is right anybody of privilege should be

:43:26.:43:28.

able to come into Parliament and use their privilege and the education

:43:29.:43:34.

and background to secure the career progression into the role of Prime

:43:35.:43:38.

Minister into the future. If George Osborne becomes Prime Minister, that

:43:39.:43:41.

is how he has done it. Would you leave the party at that point? We

:43:42.:43:45.

may have this discussion another day. We have to put two people

:43:46.:43:51.

forward to the country and I don't believe George Osborne will be in

:43:52.:43:56.

those two people. I think it will be Theresa May Boris Johnson. What did

:43:57.:44:00.

you think of Nadine Dorries topping up her MP salary with reality TV

:44:01.:44:07.

appearance? I would do is to click dancing. Sometimes when people say,

:44:08.:44:13.

wide-eyed become an MP I play the long game because a female MP has

:44:14.:44:17.

never been on strictly come dancing. I hope you get your

:44:18.:44:21.

invitation for next season. You can permit your way out of the studio.

:44:22.:44:22.

Thank you. Now, how long does it take to decide

:44:23.:44:24.

whether to build a third runway Politicians have been thinking

:44:25.:44:28.

about it for at least 25 years and this government started the

:44:29.:44:31.

process of making the decision over three years ago - but it now looks

:44:32.:44:33.

like they need a bit more time. Heathrow says

:44:34.:44:37.

a third runway would add But last week a committee of MPs

:44:38.:44:39.

said the airport still needs to prove that a new runway would meet

:44:40.:44:46.

air quality standards. In 2009, Gordon Brown's government

:44:47.:44:50.

said they would build Then in 2010 the new Prime Minister

:44:51.:44:52.

David Cameron scrapped those plans. This was after he made a "no ifs,

:44:53.:45:02.

no buts" pledge that he wouldn't But in September 2012

:45:03.:45:06.

the government asked the economist Howard Davies to lead an independent

:45:07.:45:11.

commission into airport capacity. In July, the Airports Commission

:45:12.:45:16.

finally reported, giving a green The government said they'd make

:45:17.:45:18.

a final decision before the end of the year but it now looks

:45:19.:45:25.

like that could be delayed And joining me now are two

:45:26.:45:28.

Conservative MPs Tania Mathias - she's against expansion at

:45:29.:45:36.

Heathrow - Welcome to both of you. You must be

:45:37.:45:46.

delighted. It looks as if the government will kick this into the

:45:47.:45:51.

long grass. I have not heard anything officially. My concern is

:45:52.:45:56.

the same today as if there had been a decision. I have concerns about

:45:57.:46:02.

Heathrow with two runways, let alone three runways, and I believe we do

:46:03.:46:08.

need an answer for the UK's aviation capacity. You want a decision to be

:46:09.:46:13.

made one way or the other? I want a decision that would be made on an

:46:14.:46:17.

economic level, that works for the country and does not have

:46:18.:46:20.

environmental impact that Heathrow would have. According to the CBI,

:46:21.:46:27.

delaying on this issue could cost ?5 billion in lost exports. Do MPs bear

:46:28.:46:35.

responsibility in that? The Davis commission also talked about no

:46:36.:46:37.

night flights and that means there would not be flights to our markets

:46:38.:46:42.

and Southeast Asia. So I don't see how the economic benefit comes with

:46:43.:46:48.

a third runway at Heathrow. Royston, the CBI says the decision shows a

:46:49.:46:56.

failure in leadership and now looks like there will not be definitive

:46:57.:47:02.

decision. Is David Cameron being too indecisive? It is difficult. If you

:47:03.:47:06.

make a know with snow but commitment but then circumstances change, you

:47:07.:47:13.

have sort of tide a bit. -- ain't no ifs, no buts commitment. Politicians

:47:14.:47:17.

want a straight answer and sometimes when you do then that can come back

:47:18.:47:23.

to bite you. When I was leader of Southampton City Council, people

:47:24.:47:27.

advised us and politicians made decisions. We have had the Davis

:47:28.:47:34.

commission. If the decision is to do nothing, that is a decision, but

:47:35.:47:40.

until we do, no one, Tania in particular and her constituents,

:47:41.:47:44.

cannot move on. Do you think the government will just go for Heathrow

:47:45.:47:50.

eventually? It would be my favoured option. The government will make its

:47:51.:47:53.

decision based on all sorts of factors. I think if they made a

:47:54.:47:57.

decision based on the Davis commission and the economic case,

:47:58.:48:01.

then they would make a decision for a third runway at Heathrow. Do you

:48:02.:48:06.

think it is politics? Are they being cynical because Zac Goldsmith's the

:48:07.:48:14.

Conservative candidate for mayor who is dead against Heathrow expansion

:48:15.:48:18.

and says will resign the whip if a third runway goes ahead. Do you

:48:19.:48:27.

think that is why they are denying it -- delaying it? I don't think

:48:28.:48:31.

they are. We see a lot of people who are independently minded which is

:48:32.:48:35.

very good for your constituents. Some of the things you say and do

:48:36.:48:40.

for your constituents quite rightly will not sit with government

:48:41.:48:43.

policy. However this I am going to resign if I don't get my own way, is

:48:44.:48:48.

not something which I think is a good idea. Zac Goldsmith stood on

:48:49.:48:53.

that platform and there was the no ifs, no buts from David Cameron.

:48:54.:49:01.

That was 2009 from David Cameron. I remember because I am next door to

:49:02.:49:06.

Zach's constituency, I am in Twickenham, and I remember at big

:49:07.:49:09.

public meetings, it was very powerful when Zac was a candidate.

:49:10.:49:18.

He said I know people feel very strongly. What I am saying is, I

:49:19.:49:24.

want to fight as the MP for Twickenham, because I want to

:49:25.:49:29.

improve Heathrow right now, and I do believe with the environmental audit

:49:30.:49:34.

committee report, there is more we can do to make Heathrow better, not

:49:35.:49:40.

bigger. But if they go for that third runway, Tania, do you think

:49:41.:49:44.

there will be Cabinet resignations over this? We know Justine

:49:45.:49:48.

Greening, the MP for Putney, and her views which are very against a third

:49:49.:49:54.

runway. I don't know. I have two basic like other MPs, but I want to

:49:55.:49:59.

see an end result, however long it takes. My predecessor before last,

:50:00.:50:04.

Toby Jessel, in his maiden speech said almost the same thing I did in

:50:05.:50:10.

my maiden speech and that was in 1970. The point is to carry on the

:50:11.:50:15.

fight. When I have debated in Parliament, Toby, although he is

:50:16.:50:19.

retired, has said good, you are doing the same arguments, we have to

:50:20.:50:25.

keep fighting for residents. How can you recommend that the government

:50:26.:50:29.

plumps for Heathrow when the environmental audit committee has

:50:30.:50:32.

warned that issues of public health and noise pollution have not been

:50:33.:50:36.

dealt with, that they would be breaching EU guidelines? I think a

:50:37.:50:41.

lot of that has been answered in reports. We know wherever you put a

:50:42.:50:46.

third runway or another runway or another airport, you are going to

:50:47.:50:50.

have an airport pollution. You will have that. But I don't think in this

:50:51.:50:54.

case, with the new technology of aeroplanes, they are far different

:50:55.:50:58.

than they ever were before. I am a former engineer. I know how aircraft

:50:59.:51:02.

technology has changed over the years. They are far less polluting

:51:03.:51:06.

than they ever were and they are becoming less polluting. So why

:51:07.:51:13.

doesn't the government just say Heathrow? I am not talking on the

:51:14.:51:16.

half of the government... But you admit there is no question to

:51:17.:51:21.

answer. I am saying I think Heathrow is the right solution. I think what

:51:22.:51:28.

Tania is doing is the right thing for her constituents. This is about

:51:29.:51:32.

representation and I think Tania is doing a proper job. If you resign

:51:33.:51:36.

the whip and you are not in the party any more, your influence would

:51:37.:51:41.

be less. Tania is fighting in the party for her constituents. But

:51:42.:51:46.

should the government ignore MPs like Tania and Justine Greening?

:51:47.:51:51.

No, they should listen to everyone's opinions but... It is a

:51:52.:51:57.

fairly binary decision. If I was in Twickenham, I would like Tania

:51:58.:52:02.

fighting for me. Point of information, I love the fact you

:52:03.:52:06.

haven't engineering background but we are dealing with a serious

:52:07.:52:12.

increase to number of flights. It is not NIMBY -ism. If nitrous dioxide

:52:13.:52:18.

was red in colour we would see it all over London. And when we talk

:52:19.:52:25.

about WHO and EU 55 average decibel levels, we are getting to 83 and as

:52:26.:52:30.

you know, 83 decibels, that only came up because resident groups

:52:31.:52:34.

asked for more information. That is the A380. People realise Heathrow is

:52:35.:52:40.

not being a good neighbour. There is a lot more could do, for the UK as

:52:41.:52:45.

well as West London. We will hear a decision, even if it is one to delay

:52:46.:52:48.

in the next week. Thank you. The left-wing grassroots group

:52:49.:52:54.

Momentum, formed in the wake of Jeremy Corbyn's election victory,

:52:55.:52:56.

has said today it will move to bar non-Labour Party members from taking

:52:57.:52:59.

part in some of its meetings. The group has been under scrutiny

:53:00.:53:02.

over the extent to which it could be used as a vehicle for so-called

:53:03.:53:05.

hard-left activists to infiltrate the Labour Party and deselect

:53:06.:53:07.

insufficiently left-wing MPs. Yesterday,

:53:08.:53:09.

I asked Adam Klug of Momentum about reports that at a meeting

:53:10.:53:11.

of the group in Lambeth, there were leaflets calling for the deselection

:53:12.:53:14.

of local Labour MP Chuka Ummuna. Momentum does support reselection

:53:15.:53:18.

and deselection of candidates. This was from Conservative Home,

:53:19.:53:21.

Mark Wallace, his account. Do you deny that those leaflets

:53:22.:53:28.

were being handed out? I wasn't at the event

:53:29.:53:36.

but my understanding from speaking to people who were, it was an event

:53:37.:53:38.

hosted by Momentum, Lambeth and some Momentum's goalless

:53:39.:53:44.

for Labour to win the election in 2020, and to build the Labour Party

:53:45.:53:53.

and engage with the grassroots. If a small section of people came

:53:54.:53:58.

in, which I believe did happen, But they were handing leaflets

:53:59.:54:01.

at the door. Are you saying it was hijacked

:54:02.:54:07.

by these people? Do you condemn those leaflets

:54:08.:54:10.

and what they are saying about It is not the place

:54:11.:54:17.

for non-Labour Party members to be campaigning on the selection or

:54:18.:54:21.

deselection of candidates. Well, joining us now is James Ivens

:54:22.:54:23.

of the Socialist Party, You believe you were

:54:24.:54:34.

mischaracterised on this programme yesterday by Momentum, white? There

:54:35.:54:38.

was a lot of talking about hijacking. There is no move to

:54:39.:54:46.

hijack Momentum. We were arguing the Labour Party should be against

:54:47.:54:50.

austerity and against war and MPs who stand for austerity and war

:54:51.:54:55.

should be deselected. Were you not the man in the pink T-shirt is said

:54:56.:55:00.

to the couple sitting next to you, there were now two Labour parties in

:55:01.:55:04.

one and that people ought to be in control and your final point was

:55:05.:55:09.

Chuka Umunna must be deselected? I would support all of those things.

:55:10.:55:12.

It is not just the Socialist Party who are saying this, there are big

:55:13.:55:16.

sections of the Labour Party membership, particularly the new

:55:17.:55:20.

membership, and people who want to see it standing against war and

:55:21.:55:25.

austerity who are incensed. But thousands of people in Chuka

:55:26.:55:29.

Umunna's constituency have voted for him. But the membership has changed

:55:30.:55:35.

now. The Labour Party, there was a big surge in support of Jeremy

:55:36.:55:42.

Corbyn. Wide-out you join the Labour Party? We would like to. The

:55:43.:55:47.

Socialist Party is ready to join the Labour Party. We were excluded in

:55:48.:55:53.

the 1990s. We are currently not allowed to join. And you will not be

:55:54.:55:58.

allowed to join now. Momentum so you cannot go to their meetings. That is

:55:59.:56:04.

a mistake. We are there to defend Momentum and Jeremy Corbyn's

:56:05.:56:09.

anti-austerity leadership. You talk about this red scare being very

:56:10.:56:13.

unfair in this witchhunt, but you cannot be surprised that the

:56:14.:56:18.

majority of Labour MPs who did not support Jeremy Corbyn are concerned

:56:19.:56:21.

that people who are not members of the Labour Party are, as you have

:56:22.:56:25.

just admitted, trying to change policy and trying to get them

:56:26.:56:30.

deselected? They feel their career is on the line. There are millions

:56:31.:56:33.

of people is on the line. There are millions

:56:34.:56:36.

do not agree with the line they are putting which is cut back on jobs

:56:37.:56:40.

and services, son of public services, go to war, bomb civilians

:56:41.:56:44.

in Syria. A lot of people do not agree with that and I think ordinary

:56:45.:56:50.

Labour members should have every right to deselect them. We would

:56:51.:56:52.

absolutely want to affiliate the Labour Party. But you're only

:56:53.:56:57.

wanting to join the Labour Party to deselect MPs who do not reflect your

:56:58.:57:01.

views on certain issues but Momentum is a private group. Why is it so

:57:02.:57:06.

wrong for them to decide who comes to their meetings which are about

:57:07.:57:12.

the Labour Party of which were not a member. This was a Tory, this was a

:57:13.:57:17.

member of the Conservative Party who was at Momentum. We have every right

:57:18.:57:21.

to go in and argue this case. He has done this to whip up a witchhunt and

:57:22.:57:26.

this has been picked up by the right wing of the Labour Party who fear

:57:27.:57:28.

for their careers and who want to put a similar line to the Tory party

:57:29.:57:36.

and it seems the leadership of Momentum is now under enormous

:57:37.:57:39.

pressure. People want to move against Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

:57:40.:57:43.

But if the majority of people feel like you have articulated, then

:57:44.:57:46.

Labour would have won the last election. People had a chance to go

:57:47.:57:56.

out and choose Labour or not. If, as you claim, all these people both in

:57:57.:57:59.

the Labour Party and out in the public feel like you do, then Labour

:58:00.:58:04.

would now be a government. But at the last election, Labour were not

:58:05.:58:12.

standing on an anti-austerity platform, they were standing on a

:58:13.:58:15.

pro-austerity platform. There is the old Blair project... Do you think

:58:16.:58:20.

you would have the numbers to win a general election? And do you think

:58:21.:58:24.

you have the right to say to 50,000 or 80,000 people who voted for these

:58:25.:58:30.

Labour MPs in their constituency, that their vote was invalid because

:58:31.:58:34.

you say so? I will have to break it there, James, thank you.

:58:35.:58:36.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:37.:58:40.

The question was: Which of these is the odd one out?

:58:41.:58:42.

Donald Trump, Jeremy Corbyn, Angela Merkel, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi?

:58:43.:58:45.

Can I just say that I don't think you should be just I is the head of

:58:46.:58:54.

Identity think we are.

:58:55.:58:55.

All the others have been shortlisted for Time Magazine's

:58:56.:59:00.

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP and author Nadine Dorries. They discuss the government's response to the floods and the latest on the UK's renegotiation of its EU membership. Also Labour MP Jess Phillips discusses class and gender in politics.


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