10/12/2015 Daily Politics


10/12/2015

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well. I am heading up to the north-east later today. I think I'll

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take the train. It's time to hand you over to Daily Politics.

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but there was a lot of pressure from people in west London. It was to win

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seats? We have an issue about planes flying over your capital city, which

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is unusual. We have got Heathrow where it is and it is the hub and we

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have to get on with it. Now, Jeremy Corbyn is said not

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to have changed his views about anything in more

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than 30 years as an MP. Our guest of the day,

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David Willetts, on the other hand, has admitted to changing

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his mind a few times And he's not the only politician

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to have shown a lack of consistency over the years, as our

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Ellie's discovered. I think that was the wrong

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introduction. What have you done with Ellie? She has disappeared into

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the ether. She has not gone to the pub already? It must have been the

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Christmas drinks. I might try and find the right introduction.

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I might try and find the right introduction.

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As an alumnus of Mrs Thatcher's Downing Street policy unit,

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and a bigwig at the right-wing think tank the Centre for Policy Studies,

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David Willetts was seen as a Thatcherite right-winger.

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But a quarter of a century later the now Lord Willits was one

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of the loudest vocal opponents of the Government's tax credit cuts.

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He is not alone in being a travelling Tory.

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Iain Duncan Smith reckons a visit to a Glasgow housing estate

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at the start of the last decade changed the way he viewed

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The future Speaker John Bercow was once a member of the ultra-right

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While losing his seat at the 1997 election saw Michael Portillo move

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from being a right-wing rabble-rousing Tory Defence

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Secretary to a rather more genteel, centre ground politician

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prefers journeys of a different kind.

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Some politicians go on a rather more obvious journey.

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On his way to becoming Britain's wartime leader,

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quit the Conservatives for the Liberal party

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and then went back again, commenting, "Anyone can rat,

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but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat."

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More recent examples include Shaun Woodward and Quentin Davies.

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Both crossed the floor from the Conservatives to Labour

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and were rewarded with front bench jobs.

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If I had stayed in the Labour Party, I might have been a more prominent

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John Horam can claim the rare distinction of having

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begun his political career as a Labour MP, switching to the SDP

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and then eventually crossing the floor to become a Conservative.

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When you are younger, the things which are wrong seem more

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worrying than the things which may be right, so you are more worried

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about that, so you are more left-wing than you might otherwise

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But they say if you're not a socialist when you are young

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there is something wrong with your heart.

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If you're not a Conservative when you older there is something

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It happens to Labour politicians as well.

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When an unknown 29-year-old barrister Tony Blair fought the 1982

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Beaconsfield by-election he was both a member of the Campaign

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for Nuclear Disarmament and a vocal Eurosceptic.

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It was hardly an obvious start for the future Prime Minister

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who doggedly occupied the centre ground.

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Two of his home secretaries, Alan Johnson and John Reid,

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dallied with the Communist Party in their youth.

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And the German born Gisela Stuart, another former Blair minister,

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shifted her views on Europe dramatically

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after representing the British Parliament at a convention

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The journey is something when you suddenly realise a long

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cherished belief is one you no longer hold.

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You then step back, you think about it and then you feel

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She said most MPs simply don't have time to pack up their bags and head

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One day we have a vote on air strikes in Syria.

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The next day our inbox is full about saving the bees.

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it is inviting us to some reception in January and why

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Daily life of politics is so varied and busy

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that it is very easy to hide behind the busyness and say this

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We welcome viewers from Scotland. It is a good time to join us because we

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are joined by a Scottish politician, John Reid, who is now chair of the

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Institute for Security and Resilient Studies. You were a Communist

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University? What kind of Communist? I Europe Communist. I was told you

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were the enforcer at university. You used to knock on doors at night.

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This is interesting where you ask the questions and answer them as

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well. Is it true? I was as a young man and I wanted to change the

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world. I did not like some of the injustices. It was a brief period,

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two years, but after that I read joined the Labour Party and I have

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been in it for 45 years and hopefully have helped to change the

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world a little. Your PhD thesis was a Marxist analysis of West African

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economy and the 19th-century, Mozambique. No, it was West Africa

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and it was not a Marxist analysis, it was a critique of Marxist history

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to try and find out if it made sense. What did you conclude? It

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concluded that marks' model of history, that the technology

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changes, it was true and it made sense and that the Leninist view of

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history was awful. Have you passed a copy of that to Jeremy Corbyn? I

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have not, I am not sure he has done the elementary work on Karl Marx's

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thoughts. If he did, he would take a different view of the world. We are

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in an era where the most productive forces are cyber and social and

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economic changes mean that working people under capitalism are a

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thousand times better off than they were 100 years ago and we have to

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change the way we apply our values, which is what new Labour is about,

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in order to win back the electorate. This is a very highfalutin

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discussion. It is a very highfalutin programme. You can see and the

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condition from being a student, but could you ever imagine ending up

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being a Blairite? Before Blair there were modernisers in the Labour

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Party. As a philosopher we were talking about the only constant

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being changed and we were talking about the growth of better off

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working people, their aspirations changed, they wanted more power over

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the lives and they did not want a patronising central states like they

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had been used to previously. Part of that modernisation was necessary in

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order to keep Labour are relevant. Before there was Tony Blair, there

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were a number of people like Kinnock, Mo Mowlam, myself, and we

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conducted 15 years of ideological battle inside the Labour Party

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before Tony arrived. Tony became the most articulate spokesman of that

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trend, but this is not something that was thought up by Tony Blair

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and Peter Mandelson over a bottle of Chianti and a bowl of pasta. This

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was a thoughtful response to the changes in British social and

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economic conditions and how Labour had learned to apply its traditional

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values in the modern setting, to use John Prescott's phrase. I used to

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hear that in my sleep when he was Deputy Prime Minister. You move them

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from a situation where you wanted to overthrow capitalism to a situation

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where you wanted to reform capitalism, but in a way that would

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still keep it fundamentally a market economy? Yes, because one of the

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predictions that Karl Marx made which was wrong was that the market

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economy with make more misery for people. Getting poor and poor. But

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from 1880 onwards it became wrong. My appreciation of Karl Marx's model

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of history, and how it works, not about his political convictions,

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many of which were proved wrong. You went on a political journey over a

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number of years. Currently the leader actually thinks now what he

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got 15 years ago. Is that weakness to date or a strength? There are

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potential values. The concern about the impoverishment of people and the

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concern for justice and so on. The retention of those values is a

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strength. However, if you think you can apply that, despite all the

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changes in history, the way that they were applied 5100 years ago, it

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is a weakness. In a democracy you have to compromise with the

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electorate, an electorate which is people and they are changing in

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their social and economic conditions. The economy is changing

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in terms of how you produce the wealth in order to redistribute it.

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Retain your values by all means, and I hope I have retained most of the

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values I had when I was younger, but the way in which you apply them in

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different circumstances has to differ as the world changes. John

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Keane says, is the facts change, I change my opinions. What do you do?

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That is a good question. Your journey became known inside the

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Conservative Party, you are known as a free marketeer, a libertarian. I

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would say you have been on the journey in the opposite direction,

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or at least the journey where you have both met in the middle. I am

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not sure if I agree with it. Looking back, I clearly had more here then.

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I believe in the free market. It is what got me first into conservatism.

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It is as important today as I believed then. When I look at the

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problems in the energy or the banking industry, I think we need to

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have more opportunities for the newcomer is. Where John struck a

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chord is that I used to assume capitalism would deliver evermore

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social mobility, that the fruit would always be there for everyone.

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One of the things that has happened to our society is that social

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mobility and opportunity has not been delivered on the scale we

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hoped. You have to look at how we can do better. The fundamentals of a

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free market with people choosing for themselves is what I believe now and

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what I believed then. You used the phrase free market, but wouldn't

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market be more accurate. Very few are free. I was very much involved

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in all those big privatisations and one of the things you do is you

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often had some kind of regulator you put on top. You were often

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privatising monopolies. That is not the free market. There are markets

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that clearly require regulation. I do not want Hong Kong 1950 or London

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1850, I want a modern, flexible economy. I think we can make it more

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flexible to make it easier for new people to come into the markets to

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stop the big boys selling it for themselves. The position you have

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ended up in is what the Germans call the social market. Yes, roughly. At

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the end of the 19th century and with the labour movement it was classed

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as social democracy and it was an attempt to reconcile the inevitable

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contradictions within the capitalism that lead to cyclical booms and

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busts. Which is what we have just been through. Yes, we have and I was

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always sceptical when the Chancellor was claiming to have abolished it.

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Effectively he would have abolished capitalism. There has never been a

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free market anyway. That was my point to David Willetts. Adam Smith

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pointed out there were certain things the market would not do. It

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would not invest heavily in areas which required heavy investment with

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a low return over a long period. The state has to step in and the state

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has to help give everybody opportunity because your opportunity

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and chance in life is useless unless you can exercise it. If your

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material and social conditions prevent you through your own

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ambitions and work achieving what others achieve, because they come

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from different circumstances, it is our job to give everybody that

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opportunity. He also said when businessmen clustered together, you

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can be sure that are conspiring against the public. Is your journey

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over? I hope not, as the world changes we

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ought to be able to look at the evidence is and facts and change our

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prejudices. I am still sending a lot of time on cyber role aided issues.

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Will you be joining Jeremy Corbyn at the stop the War Christmas dinner? I

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have not yet had my insight, maybe it has been lost in the post? I

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wouldn't hold your breath. That is a disappointing end to this. It is

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Chris must, you can come to ours! I will take that in light! -- invite

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-- it is Christmas. They get free bus passes,

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have benefited from a "triple lock" ensuring that their pensions rise

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by at least 2.5% every year and, most coveted of all,

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if you're over 75 you get to watch this programme for free

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with your free TV Licence. But do the older generation

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get too good a deal? Before the 2008 economic crisis,

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35% of all government spending New figures from the Resolution

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Foundation today show that the share of wealth owned by 16-44 year olds

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was 20% before the financial crisis In contrast the share of wealth

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owned by 65-74 year olds has risen And why might politicians

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want to ingratiate themselves Well, whilst turnout at the general

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election amongst 18-24 year olds was 43% and Labour had a 16% lead,

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compare that to the over 65s who are much more likely to vote,

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with 78% turning out in May. And amongst this group Conservatives

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have a 24% lead over Labour. We're joined now by the former

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former Labour cabinet minister, Caroline Flint, who has written

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an article calling for Labour to do more to court older voters,

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and David Willetts who chairs the Resolution Foundation which has

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highlighted that some of these intergenerational

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inequalities are still here. Caroline Flint, that article I was

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talking about, you said it is different now, the term of being old

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is changing, what are the changing needs of the older generation? I

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think it is how you define being old, we already had under the last

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government raising the pension age, my generation we will not be

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retiring until we are 67 and for my kids it could be until they are in

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their 70s. This is a growing part of our population. In 2020 at the

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general election majority of voters will be over 55. They are growing

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and those in the younger bracket are reducing sober me it is about saying

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first of all we have to think about, rethink about what it is to be old.

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I think there is often quite an opt old-fashioned view of what being old

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is about, I will be in the 55 and over category by 2020 and I think my

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generation have a different view of things. It is not all about the bus

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pass and the TV licence, as important as they are, it is that we

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are active much longer in our older age. Putting your political hard hat

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on, in the May election only 23% voted for Labour, you need to do

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something? Absolutely, we tanked and monks to over 65 's, but we were not

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doing much better in the over 55 is either. We had to think about how we

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approach older people in terms of what we offer. I think one of the

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things the Conservative dead was they talked about things like

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inheritance tax, the triple lock, I don't necessarily agree... You want

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to take away some of the universal benefits for wealthy pensioners... A

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lot of those older people felt their future was being spoken about and

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whilst social care is an important issue which is why all the people

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want to keep more of their money because they want to pay out for

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these things, they need to have a sense that the Labour Party is

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speaking to them about their hopes and dreams, not just... And you

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don't think they are at the moment? Do you agree that those other

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reasons why so many older vote Conservative? What we should not get

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in the mindset of is that all people think about it themselves. I

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personally think old people are susceptible to arguments that we

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have to do this for the younger generation. I think one of the

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reasons the inheritance tax strikes a chord is because they think they

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are saving up the money for their children or grandchildren, they

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don't just see it as issues for themselves. I think they would

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respond to appeals to the interest of the younger generations. You have

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spoken about intergenerational inequality and for many people it

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will come down to how much is spent on different groups of people,

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either directly or indirectly, how does your party's spending

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priorities reconcile with your idea priorities reconcile with your idea

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that more should be done for young people? Spending on the elderly is

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going up but spending on education and economic affairs is going down?

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We have done the analysis and it does indeed show that there is a

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trend towards a more and more public spending being on the services, the

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pensions and also the health care which is particularly overused by

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older people and young people are not getting a fair crack. It might

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not be through direct public spending, I think for example it's

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more aborted to get more housing built, house prices are far too

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high. If Heathrow is a problem getting new estates built is another

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problem where we are way behind other countries. Should there be

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less money spent on pensions because they are very expensive,

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particularly with the triple lock, should that be retained, the triple

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lock? Something that needs to be looked at. There were specific

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pledges in the manifesto but the way it works is almost regards the state

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of the economy, pensioner incomes keep on rising but for young people

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in work they are more sensitive to the state of the economy. You would

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accept your party is not popular with the young looking at the voting

:20:57.:21:02.

numbers? I think an appeal to younger voters and aspiration is

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incredibly important part of conservatism. Caroline, is the

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grass-roots campaign of momentum helping engage voters? It's very

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popular, will it make a difference? Labour has always done better

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amongst younger voters than older voters except in 97. I could not

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give you the details because I don't know how many people are involved.

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But they do have an appeal. I looked at some figures and amongst the

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supporters of Jeremy Corbyn I think about 12% were under the age of 30

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so I considerable number of people who were older who supported Jeremy

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Harris well. What I have also said in the article is that quite often

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in politics we segment voters, older voters here, younger voters there. I

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think it's about looking at how we can talk about the family,

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neighbourhoods and the community and intergenerational support we need to

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provide for in future. I have adult children, part of it is how can we

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come with our greater wealth, we have pensioners in poverty, don't

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forget, but increasingly better off pensioners, how can they help their

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kids in terms of getting the home on a training whatever? Let's not

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forget these are people with concerns as well, they are squeezed

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between looking after older parents and looking after kids as well. That

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is the dilemma. Were you at the Labour Party yesterday? I wasn't.

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You would invite? I was doing other things. LAUGHTER

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Thank you. Now our guest of the day has

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somewhat of a reputation for being an intellectual -

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so much so that he was given On his election David's successor

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as MP for Havant said he had twice the amount of hair but half

:23:06.:23:09.

the brains as his predecessor. "Those who cannot remember history

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are condemned to repeat it." Yes, it's C - the philosopher

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George Santayana. In the Inferno section

:23:24.:23:44.

of Dante's Divine Comedy, the poet is guided through the successive

:23:45.:23:48.

circles of Hell by I don't know, I think it was Burge.

:23:49.:23:50.

-- merge all -- Virgil. That's right it's Virgil,

:23:51.:24:12.

author of the Aeneid. Which planet's days

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are longer than its years? Or D - Earth when the Daily Politics

:24:15.:24:17.

is on air but Parliament I really don't know. I was the

:24:18.:24:29.

former Minister for science but I don't know. Have a guess. As it is

:24:30.:24:36.

very small it could be Venus. He has got them all right! We are joined by

:24:37.:24:49.

Matthew Parris to discuss if having a big brain and being intellectual

:24:50.:24:55.

helps? It has not helped David, he ought to be a Secretary of State, he

:24:56.:24:59.

ought to be in the Cabinet, but I think he has always been slightly

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suspected by conservatives because clever people, it is not a term of

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approbation amongst Tories is it David? I think people think it means

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no common sense, not living in reality are being practical but of

:25:15.:25:17.

course all the things I am interested in I am interested in

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because I want to do practical things to make life better. Who

:25:21.:25:24.

called the Tory party the stupid party? I thought it was John Stuart

:25:25.:25:33.

Mill. So why would an intellectual join the stupid party? I don't think

:25:34.:25:40.

whether you are bright or not bright is the important thing, it is about

:25:41.:25:43.

wisdom and putting your knowledge to good effect. Is that what stopped

:25:44.:25:47.

you rising to the dizzying heights, Matthew Parris? No, I am just too

:25:48.:25:54.

incompetent. I think there is a good case to be made for stupidity. Do

:25:55.:25:59.

you think some politicians are club but pretend not to be, people might

:26:00.:26:03.

have said that about Ronald Reagan who I think was clever that he made

:26:04.:26:09.

out? That is the other thing about these claims, I actually think

:26:10.:26:12.

politicians by and large are very bright and very competent people. I

:26:13.:26:17.

think it would be hard to do the job if you were not. I think were quite

:26:18.:26:22.

well served. But what is important is what you do with any intellectual

:26:23.:26:25.

well served. But what is important have. It's about accessibility,

:26:26.:26:30.

David Willetts 's is access the ball. It is also about England,

:26:31.:26:37.

England distrusts intellectuals, we are not like France, not just in

:26:38.:26:44.

politics. Do you mean just England? Particularly England. British

:26:45.:26:52.

Enlightenment was a Scottish monopoly. Yes. I love the idea that

:26:53.:27:00.

being a philosopher could be your job. Doctor Johnson was very rude,

:27:01.:27:12.

he said he is a Tory by chance, and he meant that argument had led him

:27:13.:27:16.

to that conclusion, he just didn't have deeply felt... He was

:27:17.:27:22.

suspicious, it was the classic example of suspicion. We had been

:27:23.:27:28.

told this was a highfalutin programme and we just went over the

:27:29.:27:29.

high part. The 1pm news is starting

:27:30.:27:33.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back tonight

:27:34.:27:38.

with Michael Portillo, Jess Phillips, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh,

:27:39.:27:39.

and John Piennar, along with Maitre-d Fred and waitress Cici

:27:40.:27:41.

from Channel Four's First Date.

:27:42.:27:46.

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