12/01/2016 Daily Politics


12/01/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

Thousands of junior doctors go on strike across England

:00:39.:00:42.

in their dispute over a new contract despite a last-minute plea

:00:43.:00:45.

from the Prime Minister to call off the action.

:00:46.:00:50.

At least ten people are dead, following another suspected suicide

:00:51.:00:53.

We'll have the latest. likely that the so-called

:00:54.:01:04.

MPs debate the Housing Bill - which ministers say will help

:01:05.:01:07.

thousands of young people get on the housing ladder.

:01:08.:01:09.

Labour say the plan could benefit foreign investors

:01:10.:01:11.

And should England have an official national anthem?

:01:12.:01:30.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

:01:31.:01:40.

of the programme today is the Times columnist,

:01:41.:01:42.

First, let's get the latest on the bomb attack in Istanbul.

:01:43.:01:53.

We can talk to our correspondent there,

:01:54.:01:55.

I can tell you that the Foreign Secretary, Philip

:01:56.:02:01.

Hammond, said the explosion in Istanbul hit a tourist area of the

:02:02.:02:09.

city. They are currently seeking to verify if any British nationals are

:02:10.:02:14.

involved and we will -- and they will update the House of Commons if

:02:15.:02:19.

there is more news in the next hour. Can you give us the latest? This is

:02:20.:02:31.

where a few hours earlier the Windows of building surrounded me

:02:32.:02:36.

were rattled. A number of tourists, including German tourists, according

:02:37.:02:40.

to the news agency, were killed. It is not believed at this point in

:02:41.:02:44.

time that British tourists were among those killed. We are still

:02:45.:02:49.

waiting for full information. The Turkish president has condemned this

:02:50.:02:51.

attack. Nobody then has yet actually claimed

:02:52.:03:07.

responsibility. These are officials in Turkey. It is not that many

:03:08.:03:12.

months after Ankara suffered the bomb attack which killed up to 100

:03:13.:03:21.

people. I think 97 people were killed in Ankara. That was carried

:03:22.:03:29.

out by Isis. No one is in doubt about that. This is a much smaller

:03:30.:03:34.

attack. There is speculation this is another kind of Islamist, or

:03:35.:03:38.

somebody freelancing. It could be Isis. They are under a lot of

:03:39.:03:42.

pressure was they have lost territory in Iraq and Syria. The

:03:43.:03:46.

Turkish authorities, after tolerating Isis for a long time have

:03:47.:03:51.

now thrown themselves into the fight against the so-called Islamic State.

:03:52.:03:55.

Though getting reports that Turkish authorities are trying to organise a

:03:56.:03:58.

new offensive with some of the proxy groups they help to run and fund

:03:59.:04:08.

inside Syria. It would not be surprising to learn that might have

:04:09.:04:16.

consequences here in Turkey. Do think Turkey will have more of these

:04:17.:04:20.

sorts of attacks, even though we do not know for sure who is behind this

:04:21.:04:25.

one? Turkey is playing a very complex game. As Paul said, they

:04:26.:04:30.

have backed Islamic State in the past and they are now against it.

:04:31.:04:36.

They are backing Islamist who are against President Assad in Syria.

:04:37.:04:39.

There is no shortage of people who might be inspired to attack Turkey

:04:40.:04:45.

for a whole variety of reasons on the grounds that my enemy's enemy is

:04:46.:04:50.

sometimes my friend, sometimes my enemy's enemy is my enemy. They

:04:51.:04:55.

occupy a very key geographical position in terms of their border

:04:56.:04:59.

with Syria, their relationship, a bad one with Kurds and Kurdish

:05:00.:05:03.

fighters also on their border, who had been seen as being helpful to

:05:04.:05:08.

the coalition in terms of fighting Islamic State. They have been seen

:05:09.:05:13.

to be helpful. Turkey is a Nato member. This is extremely alarming.

:05:14.:05:18.

Under the president Turkey has become more Islamist. They are

:05:19.:05:22.

supporting Islamist in Syria and they are an Islamist regime. The

:05:23.:05:26.

fact they may have been targeted by Islamist 's does not alter the fact

:05:27.:05:32.

that the West is in alliance with a regime which is fundamentally not

:05:33.:05:38.

friendly to it. Also, of course, we have these very distressing stories.

:05:39.:05:41.

Irish or they are happening right across Syria, of series and towns

:05:42.:05:48.

where people are literally starving to death. -- I am sure they are

:05:49.:05:54.

happening. It is a dreadful humanitarian catastrophe. If one

:05:55.:05:59.

wants to end the dreadful humanitarian catastrophe of Syria,

:06:00.:06:05.

one has two remove the Islamic Republic

:06:06.:06:07.

one has two remove the Islamic over the whole series of

:06:08.:06:13.

What has David Cameron said every child needs?

:06:14.:06:18.

Thousands of junior doctors across England are striking today,

:06:19.:06:38.

in the latest stage of their dispute with the Government over

:06:39.:06:41.

Doctors are providing emergency cover, but around 4,000

:06:42.:06:44.

routine treatments have been postponed.

:06:45.:06:47.

The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, spoke briefly to journalists

:06:48.:06:50.

Do your proposals threaten the future of the NHS?

:06:51.:06:59.

Is there enough money to create a 24/7 NHS?

:07:00.:07:03.

What is your message to junior doctors?

:07:04.:07:10.

And our assistant political editor, Norman Smith, is outside

:07:11.:07:18.

St Thomas's Hospital in Central London.

:07:19.:07:25.

The first strike in 40 years for junior doctors, how has it come to

:07:26.:07:33.

this? A good question. It has been going on for years, since 2012. The

:07:34.:07:38.

difficulty is simply this. Both sides seem to be talking past each

:07:39.:07:42.

other. They are not on the same page. The Government said, we have a

:07:43.:07:48.

manifest a mandate to introduce a 24-hour NHS. This is what the

:07:49.:07:53.

changes are about. Junior doctors say, we're already working 24-hour

:07:54.:07:58.

NHS. The problem at the weekends is not junior doctors, it is

:07:59.:08:01.

consultants. The Government is saying, OK, we are making you a very

:08:02.:08:07.

good payoff. We are increasing a paid by 11%. 75% of junior doctors,

:08:08.:08:14.

they say, will be better off. The BMA says absolutely not. Junior

:08:15.:08:17.

doctors will lose something like 30% of their pay. You get the sense that

:08:18.:08:22.

both sides are nowhere near reaching any sort of deal. They have been to

:08:23.:08:27.

ACAS and no deal has been reached. More strikes are planned. The factor

:08:28.:08:32.

that will break this dispute is not the merits of the arguments on

:08:33.:08:38.

either side but public opinion. If public opinion sways heavily one

:08:39.:08:41.

side or the other, I suspect that will determine the outcome of this

:08:42.:08:46.

dispute. That, in your mind, will implement government strategy. --

:08:47.:08:53.

influence. Jeremy Hunt has been criticised for mishandling this

:08:54.:08:56.

dispute. What is the strategy today by the Government? The strategy

:08:57.:09:02.

today is kind of to hide under the table and say nothing. We saw from

:09:03.:09:07.

Jeremy had they do not want to have their faces plastered on the

:09:08.:09:10.

television screen. Roughly basic logic would suggest if you have a

:09:11.:09:17.

politician and a junior doctor on the television screen at the same

:09:18.:09:21.

time, he would use in the bars with? Probably the junior doctor. Maybe we

:09:22.:09:26.

put doctors up on a pedestal and maybe the public is becoming jaded

:09:27.:09:30.

about all of this because they would rather like a 24-hour NHS. They

:09:31.:09:34.

would like to feel confident about going into hospital at the weekend.

:09:35.:09:39.

They are suffering pretty tough times. Junior doctors are getting

:09:40.:09:44.

11%, say the Government. There is a view in government circles that if

:09:45.:09:47.

these disputes go on and we do move to the third set of strikes that

:09:48.:09:52.

will involve accident and emergency departments and maybe public opinion

:09:53.:09:56.

will shift and the BMA will find itself out on a limb. That will

:09:57.:10:01.

slightly define conventional logic. Normally we assume sympathy would

:10:02.:10:05.

lie with the doctors, but make -- but maybe not if this drags on.

:10:06.:10:12.

Let's talk now to our correspondent, Phil Mackie, who's outside

:10:13.:10:14.

the Sandwell hospital in West Bromwich.

:10:15.:10:18.

How under pressure are services there? Extremely so. They have

:10:19.:10:23.

declared a level for incident within this draft. That means they are

:10:24.:10:30.

really struggling to discharge patients will they have had

:10:31.:10:33.

exceptional demand. They have too many people in and they cannot get

:10:34.:10:38.

them out in time. They have declared a level for incident. They have

:10:39.:10:42.

asked the striking junior doctors to come back in. The junior doctors

:10:43.:10:47.

have not left the picket line and they are continuing to protest and

:10:48.:10:51.

getting a lot of support from people driving by. What they have said if

:10:52.:10:54.

their understanding of the strike agreement would be they would go

:10:55.:11:01.

back in for a level five incident, which. Level four is something they

:11:02.:11:03.

would experience slightly more often and it is something they have known

:11:04.:11:08.

about, they say, in terms of trust management for some time and they

:11:09.:11:12.

are not going in. There are junior doctors providing emergency cover,

:11:13.:11:16.

as they ordinarily would do. One of the people striking here today said

:11:17.:11:19.

this was essentially exactly the same situation as it was over

:11:20.:11:23.

Christmas and New Year at this hospital and management, they say,

:11:24.:11:28.

did not choose to declare a level for incident on that occasion.

:11:29.:11:33.

Clearly the stakes are high and it seems to be escalating, and maybe we

:11:34.:11:38.

will see that across the country. At the moment, polls show there are

:11:39.:11:43.

high levels of public support. Do you have any evidence of that

:11:44.:11:48.

waning? I have not seen anything myself. It is very difficult in a

:11:49.:11:52.

hospital circumstance. People are coming and going. Even members of

:11:53.:11:56.

the public probably visiting a relative or have their own need to

:11:57.:11:59.

be in the hospital and they tend to be quite sympathetic. A lady passed

:12:00.:12:04.

me half an hour ago with an arm in a sling. She was due in Tamara and she

:12:05.:12:09.

said if it had been today, she would not have minded because she is

:12:10.:12:12.

giving the junior doctors full backing. You get lots of cars coming

:12:13.:12:19.

past, beeping their horns and waving in support. There is no scientific

:12:20.:12:22.

way of working this out. The survey that suggests that two thirds of

:12:23.:12:25.

people behind the doctors broadly and unscientific leave that is about

:12:26.:12:30.

what I would think is the case here standing in West Bromwich. Thank you

:12:31.:12:33.

very much. And I'm joined now by

:12:34.:12:37.

the Conservative MP and member of the Health Select Committee,

:12:38.:12:39.

Dr James Davies, and by Dr Tom Dolphin, a member

:12:40.:12:42.

of the BMA's Consultants Committee and a former chair of their

:12:43.:12:44.

Junior Doctors Committee. And I should say that

:12:45.:12:46.

no Health Minister was Obviously, following the line of

:12:47.:12:55.

hiding beneath the table when it comes to this, as our correspondent

:12:56.:13:03.

says. Let's pick up the incident in Sandwell at the hospital, where they

:13:04.:13:06.

have declared a level for incident. Does that make you feel bad? Nobody

:13:07.:13:10.

wanted to take strike action today but we have been forced into it by

:13:11.:13:14.

the Government. With incidents like they declared in Sandwell, there is

:13:15.:13:19.

a process for getting junior doctors back into the hostel if there is a

:13:20.:13:23.

major incident. That was a significant, unpredicted event that

:13:24.:13:26.

would occur. That is the term that was used at the time. If there is a

:13:27.:13:32.

major incident, junior doctors will flood back into the hospital, let's

:13:33.:13:36.

be clear about this. Not at this level. Doctors across the country --

:13:37.:13:40.

hospitals across the country have been running at these levels for a

:13:41.:13:47.

long time. It is nothing new. Nothing has changed today. There is

:13:48.:13:51.

no difference between this and what happened over the Christmas

:13:52.:13:55.

holidays. How has the Government let this come to a situation where we

:13:56.:13:58.

have junior doctors for the first time in 40 years ago forming support

:13:59.:14:01.

by the doctors who returned the strike ballot in favour of the

:14:02.:14:07.

strike, are all wrong? I think they have been misled. I am a BMA member

:14:08.:14:13.

and GP is my background. It is something I had a very open mind

:14:14.:14:20.

over as the issue blew up really. Looking into the fine detail of it,

:14:21.:14:25.

I have to say that the Government has addressed the vast majority of

:14:26.:14:29.

the concerns that have been put forward. Right. But to admit they

:14:30.:14:35.

have not addressed all of them. There are some issues over Saturday

:14:36.:14:39.

pay, in particular. The Government is looking about bringing about a

:14:40.:14:43.

seven-day NHS. This is where discussions are needed. I think

:14:44.:14:50.

strike action is a step too far in the circumstances. Have you been

:14:51.:14:55.

misled by the BMA? Have you been misled by anyone? The Government is

:14:56.:14:59.

trying to put across its position. We cannot mislead junior doctors.

:15:00.:15:03.

They are bright and intelligent people. The applet evidence in front

:15:04.:15:07.

of them and 98% have rejected the offer as unsafe. Isn't that just

:15:08.:15:14.

behind -- like hiding behind an excuse? There are a lot of junior

:15:15.:15:21.

doctors and it seems that junior doctors think the hours they are

:15:22.:15:25.

being asked to work will be more restrictive and the safeguards are

:15:26.:15:31.

not robust enough. They are protecting the future of doctors

:15:32.:15:34.

working practices. Do you add me to the governor has not addressed back

:15:35.:15:41.

key issue? -- the Government has not addressed back key issue. Also, the

:15:42.:15:48.

number of nights on call consecutively. It is about the

:15:49.:15:49.

safeguards. They don't trust the Government to

:15:50.:16:01.

hold by their claim that hours will be restricted but there are no

:16:02.:16:04.

safeguards to restrict it. One of the concerns was fines were being

:16:05.:16:08.

removed from hospitals... So no incentive there... But Government's

:16:09.:16:13.

latest proposals do address that in terms of fines being levied and put

:16:14.:16:18.

into a part and underseen by a guardian who will use that for

:16:19.:16:22.

educational purposes and managing of the interests of junior doctors. So,

:16:23.:16:28.

in the end, the Government has met pretty well every single concern by

:16:29.:16:31.

June area doctors and it is a negotiation and there hasn't been

:16:32.:16:35.

any compromise by June area doctors in this negotiation. -- by junior

:16:36.:16:41.

doctors. We have moved a significant distance from starting position. We

:16:42.:16:45.

are keen to negotiate. In what way have you moved? As far as I can see

:16:46.:16:52.

you haven't at all With we are very keen to be negotiate. There was to

:16:53.:16:58.

be a strike in December. We went back to asas, we didn't want to

:16:59.:17:04.

strike. There was no movement from the Government side from the

:17:05.:17:07.

discussions in ACAS. They don't address the safety issues. Since the

:17:08.:17:12.

strike mandate went ahead, there have been changes, though, haven't

:17:13.:17:15.

there? There has been an offer by the Government, certain sli on pay

:17:16.:17:19.

and doctors keep saying it is not about pay. So today, what is it that

:17:20.:17:26.

the Government can offer you that would mean you wouldn't strike in

:17:27.:17:29.

future weeks? It is a complex contract. I can't boil it down N

:17:30.:17:33.

generality it has to be a safe contract. -- in generality. That

:17:34.:17:38.

doesn't have doctors' hours increasing again. Again That's

:17:39.:17:44.

nebulus. But what they are putting on the table doesn't gar be a tee

:17:45.:17:49.

the hours will be safe and that they won't increase again. -- guarantee.

:17:50.:17:53.

When you look at the detail of how what is on paper will be enforced,

:17:54.:17:57.

there is nothing to give it teeth. That's what worries us. Principally,

:17:58.:18:02.

should doctors be going on strike? Let's leave the whys and wherefors.

:18:03.:18:06.

They have a right to strike. Personally I believe doctors should

:18:07.:18:12.

not go on strike, ever. Whatever the circumstances, however much pressure

:18:13.:18:14.

they are put under? Medicine is a vocation. They should not be

:18:15.:18:19.

behaving that they are unionised workers. The BMA... Why not? Because

:18:20.:18:24.

they are responsible for patient safety. The word "safety" is used

:18:25.:18:28.

the whole time. I'm prepared to believe the Government has been bone

:18:29.:18:32.

headed and bad and a hopeless negotiate o. Let's assume that's the

:18:33.:18:37.

case. It is still the case that, you know, the doctors are saying it is

:18:38.:18:42.

all about safety. This is really, this really sticks in the crew

:18:43.:18:49.

because whether or not this -- craw. Whether or not the sandwell thing is

:18:50.:18:56.

manufactured or no. You cannot have doctors taking strike without

:18:57.:18:59.

imperilling patients. At the least putting them at disadvantage. At

:19:00.:19:04.

wost xree miesing safety. -- at worst, compromising safety. Doctors

:19:05.:19:08.

may vo a good point over safety but -- may have a good point. But

:19:09.:19:11.

ultimately they are the -- may have a good point. But

:19:12.:19:13.

that's letting the the hook because they are relying on

:19:14.:19:18.

the fact that doctors will feel so the fact that doctors will feel so

:19:19.:19:20.

bad. What is more important, patient lives or sticking the Government

:19:21.:19:25.

bad. What is more important, patient The arrangement we have made are to

:19:26.:19:26.

keep patients safe today and The arrangement we have made are to

:19:27.:19:30.

safe in the long term. Today The arrangement we have made are to

:19:31.:19:37.

colleagues of mine and other senior doctors covering to make sure urgent

:19:38.:19:42.

patients get seen. If people are worried are stick, they should go to

:19:43.:19:45.

hospital, they will get the care they need. What about the

:19:46.:19:53.

Government. The Government should be concerned about patient safety, or

:19:54.:19:58.

any future strike, where there may not be any emergency cover. Has

:19:59.:20:02.

Jeremy Hunt handled this well? The riesh u is about a new contract to

:20:03.:20:07.

improve patient safety. I'm talking about the language used, about the

:20:08.:20:10.

breakdown of trust. Has has Jeremy Hunt handled that well? I think he

:20:11.:20:15.

has done all he can from what I have seen. I think that there are

:20:16.:20:20.

underlying issue and I know this from having worked from ape last

:20:21.:20:25.

year as a doctor in temples how doctors and the medical protesting

:20:26.:20:30.

feel. -- in terms of how doctors and the medical profession feel, in

:20:31.:20:33.

terms of their work and values, that we go out of our way to prove how

:20:34.:20:37.

hard the medical profession does work and they are valued. The

:20:38.:20:44.

reality is there is a brain drain of junior doctors. The Health Select

:20:45.:20:48.

Committee has said that junior doctors are leaving because they

:20:49.:20:50.

don't think there is a few fewer for them here. That's what I'm talking B

:20:51.:20:55.

I don't think it is about this contract per se. That issue was in

:20:56.:21:00.

place prior to this and it has, to some extent framed the whole debate.

:21:01.:21:05.

What about accusations that it is being exploited, this strike by more

:21:06.:21:09.

militant tendencies? Do you think it has been hijacked? I don't think

:21:10.:21:15.

think so. We have a clear mandate. 98% of junior doctors supported the

:21:16.:21:21.

ak. The -- this action. The entire profession shined the action. --

:21:22.:21:28.

supported the action. The Government's plans for more

:21:29.:21:31.

affordable housing - and a new right to buy for housing

:21:32.:21:33.

association tenants - are being debated in

:21:34.:21:35.

the House of Commons today. Ministers say the schemes

:21:36.:21:37.

will benefit thousands of young people looking to get

:21:38.:21:39.

on the housing ladder. Labour say it could benefit foreign

:21:40.:21:41.

investors and buy-to-let landlords The Conservatives want to get

:21:42.:21:44.

building and put more people onto the housing ladder,

:21:45.:21:48.

a key pledge in their manifesto, and they hope to have

:21:49.:21:51.

1 million new homes by 2020. Under the proposals,

:21:52.:21:53.

starter homes would be sold to first time buyers under 40 at a discount

:21:54.:21:56.

of at least 20% on properties worth There would be an an obligation

:21:57.:21:59.

for all planning authorities to build more new homes

:22:00.:22:06.

and expensive council houses It will be easier to build

:22:07.:22:09.

on brownfield sites and housing association tenants will be given

:22:10.:22:19.

the right to buy their homes. There will be measures to ensure

:22:20.:22:22.

those in social housing on higher incomes pay more in rent

:22:23.:22:25.

and councils will be given the power to blacklist or even

:22:26.:22:28.

ban rogue landlords. The plan was outlined

:22:29.:22:31.

by George Osborne in his spending Today, we set out our bold plan

:22:32.:22:33.

to back families who aspire First, I'm doubling

:22:34.:22:40.

the housing budget. And we will deliver,

:22:41.:22:44.

with Government help, 400,000 affordable new homes

:22:45.:22:51.

by the end of the decade. And "affordable" means not just

:22:52.:22:54.

affordable to rent but affordable That is the biggest house-building

:22:55.:22:57.

programme by any government We've been joined by Labour's Shadow

:22:58.:23:04.

Housing Minister John Healey and the Conservative

:23:05.:23:14.

MP, Chris Philps. And I should say that no government

:23:15.:23:16.

minister was available This bill broadens the definition of

:23:17.:23:30.

affordable housing to include starter homes costing up to ?450,000

:23:31.:23:35.

in London. How can a property costing 17 times the average UK

:23:36.:23:41.

salary be classed, in anyone's mind as "affordable"? The point is the

:23:42.:23:45.

maximum price is ?450,000. The hope is there will be many homes to buy

:23:46.:23:49.

much less than that and the 20% discount is itself a welcome step. I

:23:50.:23:53.

would also say, with Government schemes like help to buy, young

:23:54.:23:58.

first-time buyers can now borrow up to 95% of that homes' value. Is that

:23:59.:24:02.

responsible after the crash? It is. It helps people on to the housing

:24:03.:24:07.

ladder, and realise their dream. 95%. The deposit is only ?22,000 h

:24:08.:24:14.

these are affordable. Getting people on the ladder is a good step. You

:24:15.:24:19.

say up to ?450,000. You hope would be lower. How much lower? What would

:24:20.:24:24.

you say is affordable? It depends on people's personal circumstances and

:24:25.:24:27.

income and whether there is one or two earners in the household. Let's

:24:28.:24:32.

not forget, outside London, which is of course 80% or 85 of the country

:24:33.:24:37.

it is up to ?250,000. These are welcome steps to help young first

:24:38.:24:40.

time buyers get on to the housing ladder. I accept there is a massive

:24:41.:24:45.

difference between London and south-east and other parts of the

:24:46.:24:48.

country but starter homes will be sold at a 20% discount to first time

:24:49.:24:53.

buyers under the age of 40 but according to the housing charity,

:24:54.:24:57.

Shelter, by 2020, someone trying to buy a starter home in London will

:24:58.:25:02.

need an annual Sal riff ?77,000 and a deposit of ?98,000. When you say

:25:03.:25:08.

it has to be "affordable" and depends on people's incomes. It is

:25:09.:25:13.

only for the rich. I don't accept the analysis. You don't accept that?

:25:14.:25:18.

No, they ignore the help to buy scheme. The deposit isn't that much,

:25:19.:25:24.

it is lower, ?22,500. And they ignore the fact that many people are

:25:25.:25:29.

couples, you look at the household income, not individual income. And

:25:30.:25:33.

thirdly it ignores the fact that ?450,000 is maximum. I would expect

:25:34.:25:38.

many developers, particularly housing associations, who are

:25:39.:25:41.

increasingly building houses to rent will have units in London far less

:25:42.:25:46.

than ?450,000. This is a positive step. It'll help some, even if it

:25:47.:25:50.

seems on the face of it, expensive for a lot of people. We back the

:25:51.:25:53.

principle of starter homes but we want them to work for ordinary

:25:54.:25:58.

people on ordinary incomes and work better which is why we tabled an

:25:59.:26:01.

amendment to make them more affordable to people on modest

:26:02.:26:05.

incomes. There is a massive gap between affordable homes, and what

:26:06.:26:10.

Chris is talking about. Fist, you set what is affordable as a sensible

:26:11.:26:15.

limit. And secondly, this was our argument, if the takss payer is

:26:16.:26:21.

putting public -- taxpayer. Into discounts, that should stay on the

:26:22.:26:28.

shelf and help future first time buyers to keep the price downs. Let

:26:29.:26:32.

me help you on the figures. Croydon, yu average starter home would be

:26:33.:26:39.

area dour average would be ?300,000. You need an income of ?64,000. You

:26:40.:26:45.

still need help with your deposit. The point about starter homes taken

:26:46.:26:49.

in their own terms, is they will be a huge letdown for many young people

:26:50.:26:53.

and ordinary families that want to be able to buy their first home will

:26:54.:27:00.

be thwarted by the terms of the scheme. You are not saying not do

:27:01.:27:02.

anything. The problem with your analysis is people will think - is

:27:03.:27:06.

Labour not going to do anything to help people on starter homes? This

:27:07.:27:10.

is a big discount at 20%, it will help a group of people and London

:27:11.:27:14.

isn't the only place we are talking about. If this was a scheme that

:27:15.:27:17.

worked better, along the lines we have been proposing and I hope the

:27:18.:27:21.

Lords will take a look at, alongside the increase in the affordable homes

:27:22.:27:25.

to rent and buy that are in place at the moment but will get choked off

:27:26.:27:29.

by the provision for this bill, then we will be looking at a sensible

:27:30.:27:33.

housing policy which starts to meet the need for new homes of all types

:27:34.:27:37.

all across the country. That won't happen as a result of the bill we

:27:38.:27:41.

are discussing this afternoon in the Commons. Housing has long been a

:27:42.:27:43.

massive problem for governments over the decades. We are not getting to

:27:44.:27:49.

the point where it looks as if, finally, the parties have decided

:27:50.:27:52.

something has to be done. Do you think these policies will make an

:27:53.:27:56.

enormous amount of difference to people who literally will not be

:27:57.:28:00.

able to afford to buy their own home and is it desirable for them to?

:28:01.:28:04.

Well, something has to be done. I think this is something that should

:28:05.:28:08.

not be done. I think it is the wrong policy. It seems to me that this

:28:09.:28:12.

bill is very much driven by ideology, the ideology that says -

:28:13.:28:17.

home-ownership good, renting, council ownership, bad. Now I agree,

:28:18.:28:22.

home-ownership is good t has many advantages. Those who can afford a

:28:23.:28:26.

buy their own homes should be allowed and encouraged to do so. I'm

:28:27.:28:29.

in favour of that. But the bottom line is the reason we have social

:28:30.:28:34.

housing or council housing is that there are unfortune outly many

:28:35.:28:38.

people and -- unfortunately many people and will always be will, many

:28:39.:28:42.

people who can't afford to get on to the housing ladder. What worries me

:28:43.:28:47.

about this bill is that it is all about home-ownership. Not a

:28:48.:28:50.

comprehensive housing strategy for ever, including those who can and

:28:51.:28:54.

can't afford to buy. -- for everybody. To be clear this, bill

:28:55.:29:00.

will be the death nail that of genuine affordable housing to rent

:29:01.:29:03.

and buy independent experts say over the next five years we are set to

:29:04.:29:08.

lose 180,000. It started with Labour, far fewer council homes

:29:09.:29:12.

under Labour, too. Directly as a result of the bill, before

:29:13.:29:14.

Parliament at the moment. But isn't it true that there will be far fewer

:29:15.:29:18.

council homes and social housing available? No, I don't accept that.

:29:19.:29:26.

Under five years of Government Government we built more --

:29:27.:29:29.

Conservative Government, we built more than the previous Labour

:29:30.:29:35.

Government. Is that the case? It is. Hang on, let me answer the question.

:29:36.:29:39.

Eight out of ten of those new council homes built in the last five

:29:40.:29:43.

years were commissioned by Labour, funded by Labour when I was the

:29:44.:29:46.

Labour Housing Minister. You inherited a programme you started

:29:47.:29:50.

and now you have stopped it. Do you support that programme, Chris? In

:29:51.:29:52.

your mind, talking about support that programme, Chris? In

:29:53.:29:56.

is it right, should there be more council homes and social housing?

:29:57.:30:03.

is it right, should there be more thereby who are social housing and a

:30:04.:30:04.

focus on council thereby who are social housing and a

:30:05.:30:06.

Government and Mayor thereby who are social housing and a

:30:07.:30:12.

homes over the last five years, and that should continue. One of the

:30:13.:30:15.

problems we have in the country is we are not building enough

:30:16.:30:18.

problems we have in the country is before we start arguing about social

:30:19.:30:20.

who are starter homes, we need to build who are homes,

:30:21.:30:23.

who are starter homes, we need to the heart of the bill is a plan to

:30:24.:30:27.

build more homes on brow field loan to alleviate the problems we are

:30:28.:30:31.

talking about. -- brownfield land. 86% of our fellow citizens aspire to

:30:32.:30:34.

own their own home 86% of our fellow citizens aspire to

:30:35.:30:40.

helps them realise that dream. Not all, 86% want to own their own

:30:41.:30:44.

homes. But it is about reality. What I'm saying is you wouldn't quite

:30:45.:30:47.

answer whether you there there should be more focus on council

:30:48.:30:51.

homes and social housing. What about the private rental sector? You say

:30:52.:30:55.

it is desirable people aspire to own their own homes. It is easy for

:30:56.:30:59.

people who have their own homes to say people

:31:00.:30:59.

people who have their own homes to affordable rental sector but what is

:31:00.:31:07.

The sector is on its own already renting sector? Force for

:31:08.:31:18.

The sector is on its own already burgeoning. People cannot

:31:19.:31:19.

The sector is on its own already buy. That is precisely the problem.

:31:20.:31:23.

It is a buy. That is precisely the problem.

:31:24.:31:27.

attempts to address, partly by buy. That is precisely the problem.

:31:28.:31:30.

building more homes and secondly by making home ownership more

:31:31.:31:35.

accessible with things like starter homes. The local Government

:31:36.:31:40.

Association revealed 475,000 homes have been given planning permission.

:31:41.:31:44.

That is an all-time record. You must say the Government has done

:31:45.:31:50.

something right there. There are permissions in place. We want to see

:31:51.:31:53.

the builders building those homes. Above all, as I said earlier, we

:31:54.:31:56.

have to have Above all, as I said earlier, we

:31:57.:32:02.

which are genuinely affordable to rent and buy. The extreme emphasis

:32:03.:32:05.

on starter homes which will be beyond the reach of many young

:32:06.:32:12.

people, simple, exclusive emphasis, which is political and not good

:32:13.:32:16.

housing policy. It is not good economic. It will prove, in my view,

:32:17.:32:22.

to be bad politics as well. It is shutting out the range of housing

:32:23.:32:33.

need we need across the board. Uses plea -- view simply would not be

:32:34.:32:40.

able to support the bill. I do not think it well. In no way does this

:32:41.:32:48.

attack affordable homes to rent. Also starter homes. Over the last

:32:49.:32:53.

ten or 20 years, affordable homes have mostly been defined as homes to

:32:54.:32:58.

rent, rather than homes to buy. It adds in homes to buy to the

:32:59.:33:03.

affordable mix. That is a good thing. Can I ask you about something

:33:04.:33:07.

hours, the PLP meeting last month? What is the timetable for neighbour

:33:08.:33:14.

having policy on Trident? The principal place where Labour Party

:33:15.:33:19.

policy is made is a Labour Party conference. That seems to be the

:33:20.:33:22.

timescale the review will need to work to. It will be a strategic

:33:23.:33:28.

security and defence review, which is right. Trident Bob be a part of

:33:29.:33:36.

that. It is about Britain's DM security in the world. -- will be a

:33:37.:33:41.

part. You do not think there will be a decision before the autumn? That

:33:42.:33:46.

is my understanding. It is the briefing we had. The country needs

:33:47.:33:55.

that sort of debate. Our nuclear capability is a part of that. Is

:33:56.:33:59.

your understanding them not be any changes to the way that policies

:34:00.:34:04.

actually devised? No change in the way Labour makes its party policy?

:34:05.:34:10.

No, the way the Labour Party makes its policy is finalised and done...

:34:11.:34:16.

That will not change? At the Labour Party conference. You asked about

:34:17.:34:20.

the meeting of Labour MPs last night but this is a really important

:34:21.:34:24.

review. It is important for the Labour Party are really important

:34:25.:34:27.

for Britain that we take that proper review, which is about our long-term

:34:28.:34:32.

security and our long-term role in the world. Our nuclear capability

:34:33.:34:35.

needs to be a part of that. I am strongly behind de-escalation and

:34:36.:34:41.

disarmament but I am not the unilateralist. This is a debate this

:34:42.:34:47.

country has to have, especially with the escalating costs of Trident.

:34:48.:34:51.

How can we stop young British Muslims becoming radicalised

:34:52.:34:53.

In his speech to the Conservative Party conference last autumn,

:34:54.:34:57.

David Cameron said he wanted an end to what he called the "passive

:34:58.:35:00.

In our country, there are some children who spend several hours

:35:01.:35:04.

Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with

:35:05.:35:09.

children learning about their faith, whether it is in a madrassa,

:35:10.:35:12.

a Sunday school, or a Jewish yeshiva.

:35:13.:35:17.

But in some madrassas, we have children

:35:18.:35:19.

being taught that they should not mix with people of other religions.

:35:20.:35:22.

Being beaten, swallowing conspiracy theories about Jewish people.

:35:23.:35:25.

These children should be having their

:35:26.:35:27.

minds opened and their minds broadened, not having their heads

:35:28.:35:31.

filled with poison and their hearts filled with hate.

:35:32.:35:34.

If an institution is teaching children intensively,

:35:35.:35:46.

whatever its religion, we will, like any other school,

:35:47.:35:49.

make it register so it can be inspected.

:35:50.:35:53.

And be in no doubt, if you are teaching intolerance,

:35:54.:35:57.

This afternoon, the Home Affairs Select Committee will take evidence

:35:58.:36:05.

on this issue from a number of people,

:36:06.:36:07.

including the Secretary of the Bradford Council for Mosques,

:36:08.:36:10.

Do you agree with the Prime Minister that there is a problem in the first

:36:11.:36:24.

place? We agree there are problems within the Muslim community but

:36:25.:36:26.

radicalisation, as the Prime Minister is setting out in his

:36:27.:36:30.

speech basically we have evidence of that. No evidence at all? No

:36:31.:36:36.

evidence that radicalisation is taking place in mosques. What have

:36:37.:36:47.

you done to investigate? Since the consultation paper came out, we have

:36:48.:36:53.

visited 14 councils for mosques across the country, in particular in

:36:54.:36:57.

the north. We find there is already safeguarding and policies in place,

:36:58.:37:01.

working with the local authority and the counterterrorism bill that is

:37:02.:37:04.

all ready in place that does look at that. I put to you it is not

:37:05.:37:10.

working. It is saying headlines of young people on almost a daily,

:37:11.:37:15.

weekly basis, they are being radicalised and they are being drawn

:37:16.:37:20.

to make a journey to war-torn Syria. The most infamous example is the

:37:21.:37:27.

three teenage girls. Do you at Mick has not worked? We admit there is a

:37:28.:37:34.

problem. -- at admit it has not worked. It is not in a mosque, a

:37:35.:37:43.

madrassa, a church or a synagogue. Family setting, elsewhere, community

:37:44.:37:47.

settings, college campuses. What do you say in response to that

:37:48.:37:52.

evidence? There is a problem with language that is what we mean by

:37:53.:37:56.

radicalisation and extremism. If by radicalisation in you mean

:37:57.:38:02.

recruiting people to the jihad. Major sources of this are on social

:38:03.:38:06.

media. If you think that radicalisation in terms of jihadi

:38:07.:38:11.

recruitment is something which is nurtured by a kind of toxic mix of

:38:12.:38:15.

ideas, then it becomes something very different. I think personally,

:38:16.:38:21.

and effective counter radicalisation, counter extremist

:38:22.:38:24.

strategy, must have two crucial elements. Yet has to be accepted

:38:25.:38:27.

that some of the ideas in the Islamic, religious precepts and

:38:28.:38:36.

values, themselves form the sea in which the toxic ideas swim. It does

:38:37.:38:41.

not mean all Muslims subscribe to them but it is a genuine and

:38:42.:38:45.

legitimate interpretation of the faith, as expounded by Isla Mikel

:38:46.:38:49.

authorities over the world. I think we, in this country, must aid and

:38:50.:38:54.

give every encouragement to Muslim reformers, who wish to make

:38:55.:38:58.

theological reform. That is the first thing. Secondly, the Prime

:38:59.:39:02.

Minister alluded to the fact that we must address the ideas that form a

:39:03.:39:08.

grievance culture. If young people believe their culture, faith and

:39:09.:39:12.

community is under attack from a conspiracy of the West, or a

:39:13.:39:16.

conspiracy of Jews, of whom I am one, then it is not surprising they

:39:17.:39:19.

are vulnerable to jihadi recruitment. In my view, Western

:39:20.:39:24.

politicians should stand up and address these myths and lies about

:39:25.:39:29.

the West, about Jews, that are being told, in order that Muslims who are

:39:30.:39:37.

growing up can see, or can begin to understand, that what they are being

:39:38.:39:40.

fed by whoever it is, is not true. Do you accent they are not

:39:41.:39:44.

countering enough of the ideology or radicalisation that may not be

:39:45.:39:52.

actually occurring in madrassas or mosques elsewhere? The reason is the

:39:53.:39:57.

prevent strategy is not working. It is marginalising and isolating

:39:58.:40:00.

communities. There are other ways of engaging with the communities and

:40:01.:40:04.

working with them. At this moment in time, there is no consultation

:40:05.:40:07.

taking place with the community is what the Government should do to

:40:08.:40:11.

tackle this from within the community. For people like me, my

:40:12.:40:17.

organisation, and other councils in northern England. You say it is not

:40:18.:40:23.

being counted effectively. Yes. On that basis, what would be wrong with

:40:24.:40:29.

registering and inspecting them? Nothing is wrong with regulation.

:40:30.:40:34.

Nothing wrong if it means protecting safeguarding. What we are against,

:40:35.:40:39.

that this particular piece of document, or consultation, prefers

:40:40.:40:46.

to prevent 19 times, if not more. It is linked to be terrorism and

:40:47.:40:49.

extremism bill, rather than falling at Ofsted and the Department for

:40:50.:40:53.

Education, like all schools. You would be in favour of them being

:40:54.:40:58.

these out of school settings, being registered, inspected and monitored.

:40:59.:41:05.

Would that be view results? It is structural tinkering. There may be a

:41:06.:41:11.

case for that. The problematic issue is one of concept. We're not talking

:41:12.:41:17.

the right language. The majority discourse is kind of going around

:41:18.:41:21.

the edges of this. They are not collectively facing up to the things

:41:22.:41:25.

I have been talking about, which is the ideas that nurture or make these

:41:26.:41:30.

young people vulnerable to really bad guys. Those bad ideas are not

:41:31.:41:35.

being identified. How would you deal with it? Banning orders on

:41:36.:41:41.

nonviolent extremists or closing mosques, is this the way to go about

:41:42.:41:46.

it? It depends how you define extremism. I am troubled by the

:41:47.:41:56.

it? It depends how you define The Government seems to believe that

:41:57.:41:58.

highly Conservative religious ideas are themselves problematic was some

:41:59.:41:59.

it is not problematic, are themselves problematic was some

:42:00.:42:03.

bought religious community to isolate itself in the sense it has

:42:04.:42:07.

cultural practices which set it aside from the mainstream and where

:42:08.:42:12.

have I which may not accord with liberal ideas. The problem only

:42:13.:42:17.

comes when the community wants to do harm to other people. Should there

:42:18.:42:22.

be a bar on alleged extremists working with children and other

:42:23.:42:27.

honourable people? Threats to close mosques that are found this is where

:42:28.:42:31.

the problem would be, to be espousing these radical ideas are

:42:32.:42:35.

not doing enough to them. What else would you suggest in terms of being

:42:36.:42:42.

able to counter these ideas and this sort of radicalisation in

:42:43.:42:46.

able to counter these ideas and this family? Where we are at the moment,

:42:47.:42:49.

my generation was very much part of the British society we felt very

:42:50.:42:54.

inclusive. I am third, fourth generation now, and I have British

:42:55.:42:59.

values, if we know what the term British values means. That is a

:43:00.:43:04.

debate for another day. I could have Muslim, or faith, Jewish, Christian

:43:05.:43:07.

values, and still have my allegiance to Queen and country. The

:43:08.:43:09.

values, and still have my allegiance needs to be very

:43:10.:43:15.

values, and still have my allegiance What does British values mean? There

:43:16.:43:18.

values, and still have my allegiance is a value and and --

:43:19.:43:21.

values, and still have my allegiance identity. We also have family

:43:22.:43:24.

values, faith values, and other values as well. The two can fit hand

:43:25.:43:27.

in hand together. I am values as well. The two can fit hand

:43:28.:43:32.

made. I think he values as well. The two can fit hand

:43:33.:43:36.

generalising. That is not the case. We do some great work

:43:37.:43:37.

generalising. That is not the case. Bradford with councils for mosques.

:43:38.:43:43.

We work with faith communities, the Jewish communities. We were here

:43:44.:43:48.

with the Christian Muslim Forum last night. There is a great deal of work

:43:49.:43:51.

that goes on. I think the governor needs to the crowd. The whole kind

:43:52.:43:57.

of funding issue has resulted in inclusion, cohesion policy is not

:43:58.:44:00.

working, and other has all been stripped of cash.

:44:01.:44:04.

Over the past few months, a row has been rumbling

:44:05.:44:06.

over, of all things, the exact composition

:44:07.:44:08.

Just before Christmas, the Department for Education held

:44:09.:44:11.

a consultation, which prompted 50,000 people to sign an online

:44:12.:44:13.

petition demanding that women and feminism be put firmly

:44:14.:44:16.

Last night, the argument reached the Commons.

:44:17.:44:29.

Removing feminism from the curriculum is entirely

:44:30.:44:31.

incongruous with the claims of the Prime Minister,

:44:32.:44:34.

across the Despatch Box at PMQs, to myself, only weeks ago,

:44:35.:44:38.

So, as it is, A-level politics covers other ideologies

:44:39.:44:47.

which include sex and gender, gender equality, patriarchy and it

:44:48.:44:50.

covers a knowledge of core ideas, doctrines and theories of feminist

:44:51.:44:53.

thoughts, traditions and distinctive features but when the Government

:44:54.:45:00.

announced plans to revise politics A-level curriculum this section had

:45:01.:45:03.

As had the ideologies of nationalism and multiculturalism.

:45:04.:45:14.

As he is there, I would like to know the status of these

:45:15.:45:17.

The supposed compensation for feminism axing was include

:45:18.:45:20.

a section on pressure groups, so at best, on a generous

:45:21.:45:22.

interpretation, feminism survives here in a reference to suffragists

:45:23.:45:25.

and suffragettes as an example of pressure groups.

:45:26.:45:27.

A lot of lateral thinking and mental gymnastics needed there.

:45:28.:45:35.

As is recently mentioned in the other place, feminism can

:45:36.:45:37.

also be studied within other A-levels.

:45:38.:45:39.

For example, under the reformed sociology A-level students must

:45:40.:45:41.

Exam boards are responsible for setting the detailed

:45:42.:45:47.

content of qualifications in their specifications and schools

:45:48.:45:49.

are free to decide which figures they teach about

:45:50.:45:56.

And following the consultation on the politics A-level,

:45:57.:45:58.

exam boards are making changes to the final content to respond

:45:59.:46:00.

ordable rental sector but what is going done in the bill for private

:46:01.:46:03.

renting sector? Force for to the concerns raised

:46:04.:46:19.

and we will publish our response shortly but I can assure

:46:20.:46:22.

the honourable member that the final politics A-level will give

:46:23.:46:25.

all students the opportunity And I should say that no

:46:26.:46:27.

Education Minister was available We heard the idea would be part of

:46:28.:46:40.

the core syllabus. I'm none the wiser. I looked a at it again today.

:46:41.:46:46.

This stuff gets drip fed through buzzfeed. We heard over Christmas

:46:47.:46:50.

there might be a climbdown. He said it there in the Commons. He was

:46:51.:46:56.

asked to give a list and an explicit commitment that feminism will remain

:46:57.:47:00.

and be reinstated. He has kind of said wait and see. It looked as if

:47:01.:47:04.

the Government has U-turned. I don't know if it is a full U-turn. If so,

:47:05.:47:10.

I'm glad it has happened. We need the detail of what has happened. It

:47:11.:47:13.

took two 17-year-old girls to make this happen, actually. I suppose if

:47:14.:47:19.

two 17-year-old girl guides, the Government knows it is in trouble.

:47:20.:47:24.

But yes, despite the two 7-year-old girls, I don't think they are

:47:25.:47:28.

correct and I think it is all rather silly. I think it is a category

:47:29.:47:34.

error. As I understand t the proposal is to add feminism to

:47:35.:47:38.

Conservative titch, socialism and Liberalism as categories. You don't

:47:39.:47:46.

think it is worthy of that? I think it is a category error. Conserve

:47:47.:47:50.

civil, Liberalism and socialism are broad movement of political thought

:47:51.:47:54.

which reflect the way that people in contrasting views order the world.

:47:55.:47:59.

Feck nichl like otherisms, like racism is a were test movement on

:48:00.:48:03.

behalf of a set of people who feel they are not properly represented in

:48:04.:48:09.

various ways. A set of people, you mean 50% of the population. Yes,

:48:10.:48:13.

that's right but still acting as a protest group as indeed this

:48:14.:48:16.

particular initiative is, because it is all to do with the fact there

:48:17.:48:20.

aren't enough women. In other words, there has to be a certain quota of

:48:21.:48:28.

women. An ideological pressure group politics. That clip you showed was

:48:29.:48:33.

me reading out what was in the old syllabus. It was there and has been

:48:34.:48:37.

deleted. What about the substantial point being put, it is arguable it

:48:38.:48:40.

shouldn't be there in the first place. It doesn't merit the same

:48:41.:48:46.

categorisation as the big political movements? On Antony Gidden's

:48:47.:48:51.

definition, the advancement of women's struggles. I think those

:48:52.:48:56.

things, I don't want agenda-blind curriculum. I think the struggles -

:48:57.:49:01.

the to vote was fought for. We knead to be aware of that. They are linked

:49:02.:49:06.

to, unlike otherisms, it is not anary fairy thing. Women are 50% as

:49:07.:49:12.

Jo says, we cannot delete them from the syllabus. When I heard Will hear

:49:13.:49:18.

the words I don't want a "gender-blind" curriculum. I want to

:49:19.:49:22.

reach for the sick bag. This is pressure group politics. One can say

:49:23.:49:26.

I don't want a curriculum that is blind to... The minister can see

:49:27.:49:29.

they have made some serious mistakes. 29% of MPs are women. My

:49:30.:49:34.

respect for ministers exceeds no-one's but nevertheless I do think

:49:35.:49:42.

occasionally even Conservative ministers run frightened for

:49:43.:49:44.

politically correct pressure groups. Or they believe it. Isn't there a

:49:45.:49:50.

case to be made that gender politics hasn't been solved in that sense or

:49:51.:49:55.

that the form of women hasn't been assured... For sure it is a

:49:56.:49:58.

reasonable argument. I'm not saying for a amendment it shouldn't be

:49:59.:50:02.

covered in the curriculum. I'm talking about the fact that this

:50:03.:50:05.

whole movement seems to be prompted by the idea that there aren't enough

:50:06.:50:09.

women being mentioned, which I think is a worse sort of tokenism and that

:50:10.:50:16.

feminism should be elevated to being the same category as socialism,

:50:17.:50:20.

conservatism or Liberalism, which I think is just a category error. Is

:50:21.:50:26.

it that point? The core syllabus has a selection of key political things.

:50:27.:50:31.

Out of 17, only one woman. Meaning 94% were male. Who would you like to

:50:32.:50:39.

see on that syllabus? Simone, Duvoiva. And Americans who wrote

:50:40.:50:45.

about suburban housewives, something I can identify with, o to some

:50:46.:50:50.

extent. I could furnish them with a long list. Why only one out of 17.

:50:51.:50:57.

It is part of a trend. We had 0 out of 63 composers. It is looking at

:50:58.:51:01.

the wrong end of the at the same time. We can argue about names It is

:51:02.:51:06.

negating... As you say, there must be 50% of the population so, yes...

:51:07.:51:12.

Do they not have a valuable contribution? Maybe there wasn't

:51:13.:51:14.

more than one? I don't know. Start with the principle that the numbers

:51:15.:51:19.

are inherently unfair or unjust... In both occasions, the music

:51:20.:51:24.

syllabus and politics, in each case, both it took my constituents,

:51:25.:51:28.

17-year-old girls to do emanufacture petitions, and the latest one, has

:51:29.:51:32.

done the one on the feminism syllabus. There were 50,000

:51:33.:51:36.

signatures. It is a new type of politics where governments can cave

:51:37.:51:41.

in. Are we all feminists now? Are we all feminists? You and I are sitting

:51:42.:51:46.

here in a television studio... Three women. A good ratio. To that extent,

:51:47.:51:52.

feminism has won. What is the complaint? Thank you on that.

:51:53.:51:56.

Ask someone English what their national anthem

:51:57.:51:58.

But actually that's the British National Anthem.

:51:59.:52:01.

The Scots and Welsh have their own anthems but officially

:52:02.:52:03.

Various tunes have been tried, but now an MP is asking his

:52:04.:52:07.

the Steinway and look up his best patriotic tunes.

:52:08.:52:22.

Given its power to inspire, it's no surprise music is used often

:52:23.:52:27.

to sell, reinforce or create an idea.

:52:28.:52:31.

Certain tunes speak of shared values and pride in being part of that

:52:32.:52:34.

tricky to define concept - "the nation".

:52:35.:52:46.

Some melodies even get to become a national anthem but England

:52:47.:52:49.

doesn't have one, not one all to itself.

:52:50.:52:51.

There's some obvious options, and some of them HAVE been used

:52:52.:52:54.

as an English national anthem but none has been THE anthem.

:52:55.:52:57.

Now you might be thinking, wait a minim!

:52:58.:53:02.

Well, one MP has proposed Parliament looks at finding one.

:53:03.:53:06.

Land of Hope and Glory will be a great anthem.

:53:07.:53:08.

So, we could see one of those traditional

:53:09.:53:14.

favourites but we could also see something new coming through.

:53:15.:53:17.

With David Bowie's demise, what about, We Could Be Heroes?

:53:18.:53:20.

That could be a great theme tune for Britain.

:53:21.:53:22.

Alternatively, maybe, somebody will come up

:53:23.:53:40.

Fan fastic what does an anthem? Anthem -- fantastic Boyce Truss.

:53:41.:53:48.

Something to get people up. If it is insip I had it doesn't work.

:53:49.:53:54.

Something to get people up. If it is the problem, our National Anthem

:53:55.:53:57.

gets branded a bit of a dirge Yes because it was played ape sung

:53:58.:54:00.

badly. When it was written it would have been sung and played at

:54:01.:54:04.

probably twice the speed it does now and people would have stood up in

:54:05.:54:08.

the pub and sung it and ensqloe joyed it. Toby Perkins wants to have

:54:09.:54:13.

a competition about what it should be. Do you have a suggestion? I have

:54:14.:54:17.

one thing I think people might be able to get behind.

:54:18.:54:29.

Not quite an army but certainly Dads, there's a small group who're

:54:30.:54:31.

campaigning for their choice, and they aren't shy about it either.

:54:32.:54:40.

We are getting people singing on the streets web we are going past. We

:54:41.:54:46.

had one restaurant when everyone stood up and applauded us. There is

:54:47.:54:50.

great support out there. It is about time England was able to celebrate

:54:51.:54:55.

being English, at sporting events. Let the Scots and Welsh celebrate

:54:56.:55:00.

theirs and we come at the end and God Save The Queen.

:55:01.:55:09.

So if your feet any time really are walking upon England's mountain

:55:10.:55:11.

(not entirely sure where that is by the way) spare a thought

:55:12.:55:14.

if you're English for what really says England isn't God

:55:15.:55:17.

Save the Queen spreads harmony avoids discord,

:55:18.:55:18.

Toby Perkins has joined us in the studio

:55:19.:55:26.

and we've also been joined by Olympic silver medallist

:55:27.:55:28.

Kriss Akabusi, who won many medals in the 400m hurdles

:55:29.:55:30.

Is this what we are talking about to you on your the doorstep on

:55:31.:55:45.

constituency? A light-hearted film but S the truth is we do need a new

:55:46.:55:51.

settlement for England. Seen the devolution for England and Wales. I

:55:52.:55:55.

have struck by this at the Rugby World Cup, the Welsh were singing

:55:56.:55:58.

their anthem, we are being represented by England but singing

:55:59.:56:02.

the British anthem. The problems with the union, Scots and Welsh see

:56:03.:56:07.

others and England thinking of ourselves as synonymous. This is a

:56:08.:56:10.

part of that. What would you change it to? Jerusalem is my choice but

:56:11.:56:14.

the key thing about the bill is to have a national consultation.

:56:15.:56:19.

the key thing about the bill is to what about you,

:56:20.:56:21.

the key thing about the bill is to saviourioured your Commonwealth

:56:22.:56:26.

medals more if it had been Land of Hope And Glory rather than good save

:56:27.:56:33.

the Queen? It would have worked but the National Anthem is a unifying

:56:34.:56:39.

factor, all under the umbrella. Whatever God you serve, you have

:56:40.:56:43.

Queen and country and the National Anthem and Union Jack says something

:56:44.:56:47.

to me. It is much more than the words, it is a unifying force, it is

:56:48.:56:53.

the idea that 6 million people, I am one, not the only one and I live

:56:54.:56:58.

under the umbrella. -- 60 million. What about the consultation, would

:56:59.:57:09.

you go for anything else under under the English anthem? Well, listening

:57:10.:57:14.

to Toby, and every night as a young man, it was played on it the V

:57:15.:57:19.

screens and I grew up thinking England and Great Britain are

:57:20.:57:23.

synonymous, I understand the clamour for England having its own place. Do

:57:24.:57:27.

you like the tune? Doesn't do a great deal for me, but the fact it

:57:28.:57:31.

it is the National Anthem. It is clear from Toby that this enterprise

:57:32.:57:36.

to change to Jerusalem or whatever is part of a drive to build up

:57:37.:57:42.

English nationalism. I think that is a really rep prehencible things.

:57:43.:57:45.

Wales and Scotland have? It is not good. It is not good. We have a we

:57:46.:57:53.

are a union nighted king do. I agree can Kriss, the National Anthem sung

:57:54.:57:57.

at sporting events is not a team song. It is the declaration by the

:57:58.:58:00.

England team or whoever the sports people are that they have an

:58:01.:58:05.

allegiance to the crown, an allegiance than something bigger,

:58:06.:58:09.

called England, the UK which binds us altogether. Jeremy Corbyn hasn't

:58:10.:58:15.

put you up to this? He hasn't. But it is wrong, if we are competing as

:58:16.:58:20.

England we should be England. When Kriss and people who follow him

:58:21.:58:26.

represent Britain, it should be skop God Save the Queen. I would sing you

:58:27.:58:30.

out but my voice isn't good enough. There's just time before we go

:58:31.:58:34.

to find out the answer to our quiz. What has David Cameron

:58:35.:58:37.

said every child needs? I wish it was D but it is D, a tiger

:58:38.:58:56.

Thanks to Melanie and all my guests. pussycat.

:58:57.:59:00.

I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:59:01.:59:02.

Celebrate a country 4,000 years in the making. China begins here.

:59:03.:59:16.

Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.

:59:17.:59:22.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS