12/01/2016 Daily Politics


12/01/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by commentator Melanie Phillips. Includes an interview with Sarah Wollaston in response to the junior doctors' strike in England.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Thousands of junior doctors go on strike across England

:00:39.:00:42.

in their dispute over a new contract despite a last-minute plea

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from the Prime Minister to call off the action.

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At least ten people are dead, following another suspected suicide

:00:51.:00:53.

We'll have the latest. likely that the so-called

:00:54.:01:04.

MPs debate the Housing Bill - which ministers say will help

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thousands of young people get on the housing ladder.

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Labour say the plan could benefit foreign investors

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And should England have an official national anthem?

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today is the Times columnist,

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First, let's get the latest on the bomb attack in Istanbul.

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We can talk to our correspondent there,

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I can tell you that the Foreign Secretary, Philip

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Hammond, said the explosion in Istanbul hit a tourist area of the

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city. They are currently seeking to verify if any British nationals are

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involved and we will -- and they will update the House of Commons if

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there is more news in the next hour. Can you give us the latest? This is

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where a few hours earlier the Windows of building surrounded me

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were rattled. A number of tourists, including German tourists, according

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to the news agency, were killed. It is not believed at this point in

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time that British tourists were among those killed. We are still

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waiting for full information. The Turkish president has condemned this

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attack. Nobody then has yet actually claimed

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responsibility. These are officials in Turkey. It is not that many

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months after Ankara suffered the bomb attack which killed up to 100

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people. I think 97 people were killed in Ankara. That was carried

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out by Isis. No one is in doubt about that. This is a much smaller

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attack. There is speculation this is another kind of Islamist, or

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somebody freelancing. It could be Isis. They are under a lot of

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pressure was they have lost territory in Iraq and Syria. The

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Turkish authorities, after tolerating Isis for a long time have

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now thrown themselves into the fight against the so-called Islamic State.

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Though getting reports that Turkish authorities are trying to organise a

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new offensive with some of the proxy groups they help to run and fund

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inside Syria. It would not be surprising to learn that might have

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consequences here in Turkey. Do think Turkey will have more of these

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sorts of attacks, even though we do not know for sure who is behind this

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one? Turkey is playing a very complex game. As Paul said, they

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have backed Islamic State in the past and they are now against it.

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They are backing Islamist who are against President Assad in Syria.

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There is no shortage of people who might be inspired to attack Turkey

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for a whole variety of reasons on the grounds that my enemy's enemy is

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sometimes my friend, sometimes my enemy's enemy is my enemy. They

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occupy a very key geographical position in terms of their border

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with Syria, their relationship, a bad one with Kurds and Kurdish

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fighters also on their border, who had been seen as being helpful to

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the coalition in terms of fighting Islamic State. They have been seen

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to be helpful. Turkey is a Nato member. This is extremely alarming.

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Under the president Turkey has become more Islamist. They are

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supporting Islamist in Syria and they are an Islamist regime. The

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fact they may have been targeted by Islamist 's does not alter the fact

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that the West is in alliance with a regime which is fundamentally not

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friendly to it. Also, of course, we have these very distressing stories.

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Irish or they are happening right across Syria, of series and towns

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where people are literally starving to death. -- I am sure they are

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happening. It is a dreadful humanitarian catastrophe. If one

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wants to end the dreadful humanitarian catastrophe of Syria,

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one has two remove the Islamic Republic

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one has two remove the Islamic over the whole series of

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What has David Cameron said every child needs?

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Thousands of junior doctors across England are striking today,

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in the latest stage of their dispute with the Government over

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Doctors are providing emergency cover, but around 4,000

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routine treatments have been postponed.

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The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, spoke briefly to journalists

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Do your proposals threaten the future of the NHS?

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Is there enough money to create a 24/7 NHS?

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What is your message to junior doctors?

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And our assistant political editor, Norman Smith, is outside

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St Thomas's Hospital in Central London.

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The first strike in 40 years for junior doctors, how has it come to

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this? A good question. It has been going on for years, since 2012. The

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difficulty is simply this. Both sides seem to be talking past each

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other. They are not on the same page. The Government said, we have a

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manifest a mandate to introduce a 24-hour NHS. This is what the

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changes are about. Junior doctors say, we're already working 24-hour

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NHS. The problem at the weekends is not junior doctors, it is

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consultants. The Government is saying, OK, we are making you a very

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good payoff. We are increasing a paid by 11%. 75% of junior doctors,

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they say, will be better off. The BMA says absolutely not. Junior

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doctors will lose something like 30% of their pay. You get the sense that

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both sides are nowhere near reaching any sort of deal. They have been to

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ACAS and no deal has been reached. More strikes are planned. The factor

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that will break this dispute is not the merits of the arguments on

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either side but public opinion. If public opinion sways heavily one

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side or the other, I suspect that will determine the outcome of this

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dispute. That, in your mind, will implement government strategy. --

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influence. Jeremy Hunt has been criticised for mishandling this

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dispute. What is the strategy today by the Government? The strategy

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today is kind of to hide under the table and say nothing. We saw from

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Jeremy had they do not want to have their faces plastered on the

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television screen. Roughly basic logic would suggest if you have a

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politician and a junior doctor on the television screen at the same

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time, he would use in the bars with? Probably the junior doctor. Maybe we

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put doctors up on a pedestal and maybe the public is becoming jaded

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about all of this because they would rather like a 24-hour NHS. They

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would like to feel confident about going into hospital at the weekend.

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They are suffering pretty tough times. Junior doctors are getting

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11%, say the Government. There is a view in government circles that if

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these disputes go on and we do move to the third set of strikes that

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will involve accident and emergency departments and maybe public opinion

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will shift and the BMA will find itself out on a limb. That will

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slightly define conventional logic. Normally we assume sympathy would

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lie with the doctors, but make -- but maybe not if this drags on.

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Let's talk now to our correspondent, Phil Mackie, who's outside

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the Sandwell hospital in West Bromwich.

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How under pressure are services there? Extremely so. They have

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declared a level for incident within this draft. That means they are

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really struggling to discharge patients will they have had

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exceptional demand. They have too many people in and they cannot get

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them out in time. They have declared a level for incident. They have

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asked the striking junior doctors to come back in. The junior doctors

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have not left the picket line and they are continuing to protest and

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getting a lot of support from people driving by. What they have said if

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their understanding of the strike agreement would be they would go

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back in for a level five incident, which. Level four is something they

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would experience slightly more often and it is something they have known

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about, they say, in terms of trust management for some time and they

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are not going in. There are junior doctors providing emergency cover,

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as they ordinarily would do. One of the people striking here today said

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this was essentially exactly the same situation as it was over

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Christmas and New Year at this hospital and management, they say,

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did not choose to declare a level for incident on that occasion.

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Clearly the stakes are high and it seems to be escalating, and maybe we

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will see that across the country. At the moment, polls show there are

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high levels of public support. Do you have any evidence of that

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waning? I have not seen anything myself. It is very difficult in a

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hospital circumstance. People are coming and going. Even members of

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the public probably visiting a relative or have their own need to

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be in the hospital and they tend to be quite sympathetic. A lady passed

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me half an hour ago with an arm in a sling. She was due in Tamara and she

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said if it had been today, she would not have minded because she is

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giving the junior doctors full backing. You get lots of cars coming

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past, beeping their horns and waving in support. There is no scientific

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way of working this out. The survey that suggests that two thirds of

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people behind the doctors broadly and unscientific leave that is about

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what I would think is the case here standing in West Bromwich. Thank you

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very much. And I'm joined now by

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the Conservative MP and member of the Health Select Committee,

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Dr James Davies, and by Dr Tom Dolphin, a member

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of the BMA's Consultants Committee and a former chair of their

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Junior Doctors Committee. And I should say that

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no Health Minister was Obviously, following the line of

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hiding beneath the table when it comes to this, as our correspondent

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says. Let's pick up the incident in Sandwell at the hospital, where they

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have declared a level for incident. Does that make you feel bad? Nobody

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wanted to take strike action today but we have been forced into it by

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the Government. With incidents like they declared in Sandwell, there is

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a process for getting junior doctors back into the hostel if there is a

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major incident. That was a significant, unpredicted event that

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would occur. That is the term that was used at the time. If there is a

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major incident, junior doctors will flood back into the hospital, let's

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be clear about this. Not at this level. Doctors across the country --

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hospitals across the country have been running at these levels for a

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long time. It is nothing new. Nothing has changed today. There is

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no difference between this and what happened over the Christmas

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holidays. How has the Government let this come to a situation where we

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have junior doctors for the first time in 40 years ago forming support

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by the doctors who returned the strike ballot in favour of the

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strike, are all wrong? I think they have been misled. I am a BMA member

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and GP is my background. It is something I had a very open mind

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over as the issue blew up really. Looking into the fine detail of it,

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I have to say that the Government has addressed the vast majority of

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the concerns that have been put forward. Right. But to admit they

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have not addressed all of them. There are some issues over Saturday

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pay, in particular. The Government is looking about bringing about a

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seven-day NHS. This is where discussions are needed. I think

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strike action is a step too far in the circumstances. Have you been

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misled by the BMA? Have you been misled by anyone? The Government is

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trying to put across its position. We cannot mislead junior doctors.

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They are bright and intelligent people. The applet evidence in front

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of them and 98% have rejected the offer as unsafe. Isn't that just

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behind -- like hiding behind an excuse? There are a lot of junior

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doctors and it seems that junior doctors think the hours they are

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being asked to work will be more restrictive and the safeguards are

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not robust enough. They are protecting the future of doctors

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working practices. Do you add me to the governor has not addressed back

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key issue? -- the Government has not addressed back key issue. Also, the

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number of nights on call consecutively. It is about the

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safeguards. They don't trust the Government to

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hold by their claim that hours will be restricted but there are no

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safeguards to restrict it. One of the concerns was fines were being

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removed from hospitals... So no incentive there... But Government's

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latest proposals do address that in terms of fines being levied and put

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into a part and underseen by a guardian who will use that for

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educational purposes and managing of the interests of junior doctors. So,

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in the end, the Government has met pretty well every single concern by

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June area doctors and it is a negotiation and there hasn't been

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any compromise by June area doctors in this negotiation. -- by junior

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doctors. We have moved a significant distance from starting position. We

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are keen to negotiate. In what way have you moved? As far as I can see

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you haven't at all With we are very keen to be negotiate. There was to

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be a strike in December. We went back to asas, we didn't want to

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strike. There was no movement from the Government side from the

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discussions in ACAS. They don't address the safety issues. Since the

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strike mandate went ahead, there have been changes, though, haven't

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there? There has been an offer by the Government, certain sli on pay

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and doctors keep saying it is not about pay. So today, what is it that

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the Government can offer you that would mean you wouldn't strike in

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future weeks? It is a complex contract. I can't boil it down N

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generality it has to be a safe contract. -- in generality. That

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doesn't have doctors' hours increasing again. Again That's

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nebulus. But what they are putting on the table doesn't gar be a tee

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the hours will be safe and that they won't increase again. -- guarantee.

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When you look at the detail of how what is on paper will be enforced,

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there is nothing to give it teeth. That's what worries us. Principally,

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should doctors be going on strike? Let's leave the whys and wherefors.

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They have a right to strike. Personally I believe doctors should

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not go on strike, ever. Whatever the circumstances, however much pressure

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they are put under? Medicine is a vocation. They should not be

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behaving that they are unionised workers. The BMA... Why not? Because

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they are responsible for patient safety. The word "safety" is used

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the whole time. I'm prepared to believe the Government has been bone

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headed and bad and a hopeless negotiate o. Let's assume that's the

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case. It is still the case that, you know, the doctors are saying it is

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all about safety. This is really, this really sticks in the crew

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because whether or not this -- craw. Whether or not the sandwell thing is

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manufactured or no. You cannot have doctors taking strike without

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imperilling patients. At the least putting them at disadvantage. At

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wost xree miesing safety. -- at worst, compromising safety. Doctors

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may vo a good point over safety but -- may have a good point. But

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ultimately they are the -- may have a good point. But

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that's letting the the hook because they are relying on

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the fact that doctors will feel so the fact that doctors will feel so

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bad. What is more important, patient lives or sticking the Government

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bad. What is more important, patient The arrangement we have made are to

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keep patients safe today and The arrangement we have made are to

:19:27.:19:30.

safe in the long term. Today The arrangement we have made are to

:19:31.:19:37.

colleagues of mine and other senior doctors covering to make sure urgent

:19:38.:19:42.

patients get seen. If people are worried are stick, they should go to

:19:43.:19:45.

hospital, they will get the care they need. What about the

:19:46.:19:53.

Government. The Government should be concerned about patient safety, or

:19:54.:19:58.

any future strike, where there may not be any emergency cover. Has

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Jeremy Hunt handled this well? The riesh u is about a new contract to

:20:03.:20:07.

improve patient safety. I'm talking about the language used, about the

:20:08.:20:10.

breakdown of trust. Has has Jeremy Hunt handled that well? I think he

:20:11.:20:15.

has done all he can from what I have seen. I think that there are

:20:16.:20:20.

underlying issue and I know this from having worked from ape last

:20:21.:20:25.

year as a doctor in temples how doctors and the medical protesting

:20:26.:20:30.

feel. -- in terms of how doctors and the medical profession feel, in

:20:31.:20:33.

terms of their work and values, that we go out of our way to prove how

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hard the medical profession does work and they are valued. The

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reality is there is a brain drain of junior doctors. The Health Select

:20:45.:20:48.

Committee has said that junior doctors are leaving because they

:20:49.:20:50.

don't think there is a few fewer for them here. That's what I'm talking B

:20:51.:20:55.

I don't think it is about this contract per se. That issue was in

:20:56.:21:00.

place prior to this and it has, to some extent framed the whole debate.

:21:01.:21:05.

What about accusations that it is being exploited, this strike by more

:21:06.:21:09.

militant tendencies? Do you think it has been hijacked? I don't think

:21:10.:21:15.

think so. We have a clear mandate. 98% of junior doctors supported the

:21:16.:21:21.

ak. The -- this action. The entire profession shined the action. --

:21:22.:21:28.

supported the action. The Government's plans for more

:21:29.:21:31.

affordable housing - and a new right to buy for housing

:21:32.:21:33.

association tenants - are being debated in

:21:34.:21:35.

the House of Commons today. Ministers say the schemes

:21:36.:21:37.

will benefit thousands of young people looking to get

:21:38.:21:39.

on the housing ladder. Labour say it could benefit foreign

:21:40.:21:41.

investors and buy-to-let landlords The Conservatives want to get

:21:42.:21:44.

building and put more people onto the housing ladder,

:21:45.:21:48.

a key pledge in their manifesto, and they hope to have

:21:49.:21:51.

1 million new homes by 2020. Under the proposals,

:21:52.:21:53.

starter homes would be sold to first time buyers under 40 at a discount

:21:54.:21:56.

of at least 20% on properties worth There would be an an obligation

:21:57.:21:59.

for all planning authorities to build more new homes

:22:00.:22:06.

and expensive council houses It will be easier to build

:22:07.:22:09.

on brownfield sites and housing association tenants will be given

:22:10.:22:19.

the right to buy their homes. There will be measures to ensure

:22:20.:22:22.

those in social housing on higher incomes pay more in rent

:22:23.:22:25.

and councils will be given the power to blacklist or even

:22:26.:22:28.

ban rogue landlords. The plan was outlined

:22:29.:22:31.

by George Osborne in his spending Today, we set out our bold plan

:22:32.:22:33.

to back families who aspire First, I'm doubling

:22:34.:22:40.

the housing budget. And we will deliver,

:22:41.:22:44.

with Government help, 400,000 affordable new homes

:22:45.:22:51.

by the end of the decade. And "affordable" means not just

:22:52.:22:54.

affordable to rent but affordable That is the biggest house-building

:22:55.:22:57.

programme by any government We've been joined by Labour's Shadow

:22:58.:23:04.

Housing Minister John Healey and the Conservative

:23:05.:23:14.

MP, Chris Philps. And I should say that no government

:23:15.:23:16.

minister was available This bill broadens the definition of

:23:17.:23:30.

affordable housing to include starter homes costing up to ?450,000

:23:31.:23:35.

in London. How can a property costing 17 times the average UK

:23:36.:23:41.

salary be classed, in anyone's mind as "affordable"? The point is the

:23:42.:23:45.

maximum price is ?450,000. The hope is there will be many homes to buy

:23:46.:23:49.

much less than that and the 20% discount is itself a welcome step. I

:23:50.:23:53.

would also say, with Government schemes like help to buy, young

:23:54.:23:58.

first-time buyers can now borrow up to 95% of that homes' value. Is that

:23:59.:24:02.

responsible after the crash? It is. It helps people on to the housing

:24:03.:24:07.

ladder, and realise their dream. 95%. The deposit is only ?22,000 h

:24:08.:24:14.

these are affordable. Getting people on the ladder is a good step. You

:24:15.:24:19.

say up to ?450,000. You hope would be lower. How much lower? What would

:24:20.:24:24.

you say is affordable? It depends on people's personal circumstances and

:24:25.:24:27.

income and whether there is one or two earners in the household. Let's

:24:28.:24:32.

not forget, outside London, which is of course 80% or 85 of the country

:24:33.:24:37.

it is up to ?250,000. These are welcome steps to help young first

:24:38.:24:40.

time buyers get on to the housing ladder. I accept there is a massive

:24:41.:24:45.

difference between London and south-east and other parts of the

:24:46.:24:48.

country but starter homes will be sold at a 20% discount to first time

:24:49.:24:53.

buyers under the age of 40 but according to the housing charity,

:24:54.:24:57.

Shelter, by 2020, someone trying to buy a starter home in London will

:24:58.:25:02.

need an annual Sal riff ?77,000 and a deposit of ?98,000. When you say

:25:03.:25:08.

it has to be "affordable" and depends on people's incomes. It is

:25:09.:25:13.

only for the rich. I don't accept the analysis. You don't accept that?

:25:14.:25:18.

No, they ignore the help to buy scheme. The deposit isn't that much,

:25:19.:25:24.

it is lower, ?22,500. And they ignore the fact that many people are

:25:25.:25:29.

couples, you look at the household income, not individual income. And

:25:30.:25:33.

thirdly it ignores the fact that ?450,000 is maximum. I would expect

:25:34.:25:38.

many developers, particularly housing associations, who are

:25:39.:25:41.

increasingly building houses to rent will have units in London far less

:25:42.:25:46.

than ?450,000. This is a positive step. It'll help some, even if it

:25:47.:25:50.

seems on the face of it, expensive for a lot of people. We back the

:25:51.:25:53.

principle of starter homes but we want them to work for ordinary

:25:54.:25:58.

people on ordinary incomes and work better which is why we tabled an

:25:59.:26:01.

amendment to make them more affordable to people on modest

:26:02.:26:05.

incomes. There is a massive gap between affordable homes, and what

:26:06.:26:10.

Chris is talking about. Fist, you set what is affordable as a sensible

:26:11.:26:15.

limit. And secondly, this was our argument, if the takss payer is

:26:16.:26:21.

putting public -- taxpayer. Into discounts, that should stay on the

:26:22.:26:28.

shelf and help future first time buyers to keep the price downs. Let

:26:29.:26:32.

me help you on the figures. Croydon, yu average starter home would be

:26:33.:26:39.

area dour average would be ?300,000. You need an income of ?64,000. You

:26:40.:26:45.

still need help with your deposit. The point about starter homes taken

:26:46.:26:49.

in their own terms, is they will be a huge letdown for many young people

:26:50.:26:53.

and ordinary families that want to be able to buy their first home will

:26:54.:27:00.

be thwarted by the terms of the scheme. You are not saying not do

:27:01.:27:02.

anything. The problem with your analysis is people will think - is

:27:03.:27:06.

Labour not going to do anything to help people on starter homes? This

:27:07.:27:10.

is a big discount at 20%, it will help a group of people and London

:27:11.:27:14.

isn't the only place we are talking about. If this was a scheme that

:27:15.:27:17.

worked better, along the lines we have been proposing and I hope the

:27:18.:27:21.

Lords will take a look at, alongside the increase in the affordable homes

:27:22.:27:25.

to rent and buy that are in place at the moment but will get choked off

:27:26.:27:29.

by the provision for this bill, then we will be looking at a sensible

:27:30.:27:33.

housing policy which starts to meet the need for new homes of all types

:27:34.:27:37.

all across the country. That won't happen as a result of the bill we

:27:38.:27:41.

are discussing this afternoon in the Commons. Housing has long been a

:27:42.:27:43.

massive problem for governments over the decades. We are not getting to

:27:44.:27:49.

the point where it looks as if, finally, the parties have decided

:27:50.:27:52.

something has to be done. Do you think these policies will make an

:27:53.:27:56.

enormous amount of difference to people who literally will not be

:27:57.:28:00.

able to afford to buy their own home and is it desirable for them to?

:28:01.:28:04.

Well, something has to be done. I think this is something that should

:28:05.:28:08.

not be done. I think it is the wrong policy. It seems to me that this

:28:09.:28:12.

bill is very much driven by ideology, the ideology that says -

:28:13.:28:17.

home-ownership good, renting, council ownership, bad. Now I agree,

:28:18.:28:22.

home-ownership is good t has many advantages. Those who can afford a

:28:23.:28:26.

buy their own homes should be allowed and encouraged to do so. I'm

:28:27.:28:29.

in favour of that. But the bottom line is the reason we have social

:28:30.:28:34.

housing or council housing is that there are unfortune outly many

:28:35.:28:38.

people and -- unfortunately many people and will always be will, many

:28:39.:28:42.

people who can't afford to get on to the housing ladder. What worries me

:28:43.:28:47.

about this bill is that it is all about home-ownership. Not a

:28:48.:28:50.

comprehensive housing strategy for ever, including those who can and

:28:51.:28:54.

can't afford to buy. -- for everybody. To be clear this, bill

:28:55.:29:00.

will be the death nail that of genuine affordable housing to rent

:29:01.:29:03.

and buy independent experts say over the next five years we are set to

:29:04.:29:08.

lose 180,000. It started with Labour, far fewer council homes

:29:09.:29:12.

under Labour, too. Directly as a result of the bill, before

:29:13.:29:14.

Parliament at the moment. But isn't it true that there will be far fewer

:29:15.:29:18.

council homes and social housing available? No, I don't accept that.

:29:19.:29:26.

Under five years of Government Government we built more --

:29:27.:29:29.

Conservative Government, we built more than the previous Labour

:29:30.:29:35.

Government. Is that the case? It is. Hang on, let me answer the question.

:29:36.:29:39.

Eight out of ten of those new council homes built in the last five

:29:40.:29:43.

years were commissioned by Labour, funded by Labour when I was the

:29:44.:29:46.

Labour Housing Minister. You inherited a programme you started

:29:47.:29:50.

and now you have stopped it. Do you support that programme, Chris? In

:29:51.:29:52.

your mind, talking about support that programme, Chris? In

:29:53.:29:56.

is it right, should there be more council homes and social housing?

:29:57.:30:03.

is it right, should there be more thereby who are social housing and a

:30:04.:30:04.

focus on council thereby who are social housing and a

:30:05.:30:06.

Government and Mayor thereby who are social housing and a

:30:07.:30:12.

homes over the last five years, and that should continue. One of the

:30:13.:30:15.

problems we have in the country is we are not building enough

:30:16.:30:18.

problems we have in the country is before we start arguing about social

:30:19.:30:20.

who are starter homes, we need to build who are homes,

:30:21.:30:23.

who are starter homes, we need to the heart of the bill is a plan to

:30:24.:30:27.

build more homes on brow field loan to alleviate the problems we are

:30:28.:30:31.

talking about. -- brownfield land. 86% of our fellow citizens aspire to

:30:32.:30:34.

own their own home 86% of our fellow citizens aspire to

:30:35.:30:40.

helps them realise that dream. Not all, 86% want to own their own

:30:41.:30:44.

homes. But it is about reality. What I'm saying is you wouldn't quite

:30:45.:30:47.

answer whether you there there should be more focus on council

:30:48.:30:51.

homes and social housing. What about the private rental sector? You say

:30:52.:30:55.

it is desirable people aspire to own their own homes. It is easy for

:30:56.:30:59.

people who have their own homes to say people

:31:00.:30:59.

people who have their own homes to affordable rental sector but what is

:31:00.:31:07.

The sector is on its own already renting sector? Force for

:31:08.:31:18.

The sector is on its own already burgeoning. People cannot

:31:19.:31:19.

The sector is on its own already buy. That is precisely the problem.

:31:20.:31:23.

It is a buy. That is precisely the problem.

:31:24.:31:27.

attempts to address, partly by buy. That is precisely the problem.

:31:28.:31:30.

building more homes and secondly by making home ownership more

:31:31.:31:35.

accessible with things like starter homes. The local Government

:31:36.:31:40.

Association revealed 475,000 homes have been given planning permission.

:31:41.:31:44.

That is an all-time record. You must say the Government has done

:31:45.:31:50.

something right there. There are permissions in place. We want to see

:31:51.:31:53.

the builders building those homes. Above all, as I said earlier, we

:31:54.:31:56.

have to have Above all, as I said earlier, we

:31:57.:32:02.

which are genuinely affordable to rent and buy. The extreme emphasis

:32:03.:32:05.

on starter homes which will be beyond the reach of many young

:32:06.:32:12.

people, simple, exclusive emphasis, which is political and not good

:32:13.:32:16.

housing policy. It is not good economic. It will prove, in my view,

:32:17.:32:22.

to be bad politics as well. It is shutting out the range of housing

:32:23.:32:33.

need we need across the board. Uses plea -- view simply would not be

:32:34.:32:40.

able to support the bill. I do not think it well. In no way does this

:32:41.:32:48.

attack affordable homes to rent. Also starter homes. Over the last

:32:49.:32:53.

ten or 20 years, affordable homes have mostly been defined as homes to

:32:54.:32:58.

rent, rather than homes to buy. It adds in homes to buy to the

:32:59.:33:03.

affordable mix. That is a good thing. Can I ask you about something

:33:04.:33:07.

hours, the PLP meeting last month? What is the timetable for neighbour

:33:08.:33:14.

having policy on Trident? The principal place where Labour Party

:33:15.:33:19.

policy is made is a Labour Party conference. That seems to be the

:33:20.:33:22.

timescale the review will need to work to. It will be a strategic

:33:23.:33:28.

security and defence review, which is right. Trident Bob be a part of

:33:29.:33:36.

that. It is about Britain's DM security in the world. -- will be a

:33:37.:33:41.

part. You do not think there will be a decision before the autumn? That

:33:42.:33:46.

is my understanding. It is the briefing we had. The country needs

:33:47.:33:55.

that sort of debate. Our nuclear capability is a part of that. Is

:33:56.:33:59.

your understanding them not be any changes to the way that policies

:34:00.:34:04.

actually devised? No change in the way Labour makes its party policy?

:34:05.:34:10.

No, the way the Labour Party makes its policy is finalised and done...

:34:11.:34:16.

That will not change? At the Labour Party conference. You asked about

:34:17.:34:20.

the meeting of Labour MPs last night but this is a really important

:34:21.:34:24.

review. It is important for the Labour Party are really important

:34:25.:34:27.

for Britain that we take that proper review, which is about our long-term

:34:28.:34:32.

security and our long-term role in the world. Our nuclear capability

:34:33.:34:35.

needs to be a part of that. I am strongly behind de-escalation and

:34:36.:34:41.

disarmament but I am not the unilateralist. This is a debate this

:34:42.:34:47.

country has to have, especially with the escalating costs of Trident.

:34:48.:34:51.

How can we stop young British Muslims becoming radicalised

:34:52.:34:53.

In his speech to the Conservative Party conference last autumn,

:34:54.:34:57.

David Cameron said he wanted an end to what he called the "passive

:34:58.:35:00.

In our country, there are some children who spend several hours

:35:01.:35:04.

Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with

:35:05.:35:09.

children learning about their faith, whether it is in a madrassa,

:35:10.:35:12.

a Sunday school, or a Jewish yeshiva.

:35:13.:35:17.

But in some madrassas, we have children

:35:18.:35:19.

being taught that they should not mix with people of other religions.

:35:20.:35:22.

Being beaten, swallowing conspiracy theories about Jewish people.

:35:23.:35:25.

These children should be having their

:35:26.:35:27.

minds opened and their minds broadened, not having their heads

:35:28.:35:31.

filled with poison and their hearts filled with hate.

:35:32.:35:34.

If an institution is teaching children intensively,

:35:35.:35:46.

whatever its religion, we will, like any other school,

:35:47.:35:49.

make it register so it can be inspected.

:35:50.:35:53.

And be in no doubt, if you are teaching intolerance,

:35:54.:35:57.

This afternoon, the Home Affairs Select Committee will take evidence

:35:58.:36:05.

on this issue from a number of people,

:36:06.:36:07.

including the Secretary of the Bradford Council for Mosques,

:36:08.:36:10.

Do you agree with the Prime Minister that there is a problem in the first

:36:11.:36:24.

place? We agree there are problems within the Muslim community but

:36:25.:36:26.

radicalisation, as the Prime Minister is setting out in his

:36:27.:36:30.

speech basically we have evidence of that. No evidence at all? No

:36:31.:36:36.

evidence that radicalisation is taking place in mosques. What have

:36:37.:36:47.

you done to investigate? Since the consultation paper came out, we have

:36:48.:36:53.

visited 14 councils for mosques across the country, in particular in

:36:54.:36:57.

the north. We find there is already safeguarding and policies in place,

:36:58.:37:01.

working with the local authority and the counterterrorism bill that is

:37:02.:37:04.

all ready in place that does look at that. I put to you it is not

:37:05.:37:10.

working. It is saying headlines of young people on almost a daily,

:37:11.:37:15.

weekly basis, they are being radicalised and they are being drawn

:37:16.:37:20.

to make a journey to war-torn Syria. The most infamous example is the

:37:21.:37:27.

three teenage girls. Do you at Mick has not worked? We admit there is a

:37:28.:37:34.

problem. -- at admit it has not worked. It is not in a mosque, a

:37:35.:37:43.

madrassa, a church or a synagogue. Family setting, elsewhere, community

:37:44.:37:47.

settings, college campuses. What do you say in response to that

:37:48.:37:52.

evidence? There is a problem with language that is what we mean by

:37:53.:37:56.

radicalisation and extremism. If by radicalisation in you mean

:37:57.:38:02.

recruiting people to the jihad. Major sources of this are on social

:38:03.:38:06.

media. If you think that radicalisation in terms of jihadi

:38:07.:38:11.

recruitment is something which is nurtured by a kind of toxic mix of

:38:12.:38:15.

ideas, then it becomes something very different. I think personally,

:38:16.:38:21.

and effective counter radicalisation, counter extremist

:38:22.:38:24.

strategy, must have two crucial elements. Yet has to be accepted

:38:25.:38:27.

that some of the ideas in the Islamic, religious precepts and

:38:28.:38:36.

values, themselves form the sea in which the toxic ideas swim. It does

:38:37.:38:41.

not mean all Muslims subscribe to them but it is a genuine and

:38:42.:38:45.

legitimate interpretation of the faith, as expounded by Isla Mikel

:38:46.:38:49.

authorities over the world. I think we, in this country, must aid and

:38:50.:38:54.

give every encouragement to Muslim reformers, who wish to make

:38:55.:38:58.

theological reform. That is the first thing. Secondly, the Prime

:38:59.:39:02.

Minister alluded to the fact that we must address the ideas that form a

:39:03.:39:08.

grievance culture. If young people believe their culture, faith and

:39:09.:39:12.

community is under attack from a conspiracy of the West, or a

:39:13.:39:16.

conspiracy of Jews, of whom I am one, then it is not surprising they

:39:17.:39:19.

are vulnerable to jihadi recruitment. In my view, Western

:39:20.:39:24.

politicians should stand up and address these myths and lies about

:39:25.:39:29.

the West, about Jews, that are being told, in order that Muslims who are

:39:30.:39:37.

growing up can see, or can begin to understand, that what they are being

:39:38.:39:40.

fed by whoever it is, is not true. Do you accent they are not

:39:41.:39:44.

countering enough of the ideology or radicalisation that may not be

:39:45.:39:52.

actually occurring in madrassas or mosques elsewhere? The reason is the

:39:53.:39:57.

prevent strategy is not working. It is marginalising and isolating

:39:58.:40:00.

communities. There are other ways of engaging with the communities and

:40:01.:40:04.

working with them. At this moment in time, there is no consultation

:40:05.:40:07.

taking place with the community is what the Government should do to

:40:08.:40:11.

tackle this from within the community. For people like me, my

:40:12.:40:17.

organisation, and other councils in northern England. You say it is not

:40:18.:40:23.

being counted effectively. Yes. On that basis, what would be wrong with

:40:24.:40:29.

registering and inspecting them? Nothing is wrong with regulation.

:40:30.:40:34.

Nothing wrong if it means protecting safeguarding. What we are against,

:40:35.:40:39.

that this particular piece of document, or consultation, prefers

:40:40.:40:46.

to prevent 19 times, if not more. It is linked to be terrorism and

:40:47.:40:49.

extremism bill, rather than falling at Ofsted and the Department for

:40:50.:40:53.

Education, like all schools. You would be in favour of them being

:40:54.:40:58.

these out of school settings, being registered, inspected and monitored.

:40:59.:41:05.

Would that be view results? It is structural tinkering. There may be a

:41:06.:41:11.

case for that. The problematic issue is one of concept. We're not talking

:41:12.:41:17.

the right language. The majority discourse is kind of going around

:41:18.:41:21.

the edges of this. They are not collectively facing up to the things

:41:22.:41:25.

I have been talking about, which is the ideas that nurture or make these

:41:26.:41:30.

young people vulnerable to really bad guys. Those bad ideas are not

:41:31.:41:35.

being identified. How would you deal with it? Banning orders on

:41:36.:41:41.

nonviolent extremists or closing mosques, is this the way to go about

:41:42.:41:46.

it? It depends how you define extremism. I am troubled by the

:41:47.:41:56.

it? It depends how you define The Government seems to believe that

:41:57.:41:58.

highly Conservative religious ideas are themselves problematic was some

:41:59.:41:59.

it is not problematic, are themselves problematic was some

:42:00.:42:03.

bought religious community to isolate itself in the sense it has

:42:04.:42:07.

cultural practices which set it aside from the mainstream and where

:42:08.:42:12.

have I which may not accord with liberal ideas. The problem only

:42:13.:42:17.

comes when the community wants to do harm to other people. Should there

:42:18.:42:22.

be a bar on alleged extremists working with children and other

:42:23.:42:27.

honourable people? Threats to close mosques that are found this is where

:42:28.:42:31.

the problem would be, to be espousing these radical ideas are

:42:32.:42:35.

not doing enough to them. What else would you suggest in terms of being

:42:36.:42:42.

able to counter these ideas and this sort of radicalisation in

:42:43.:42:46.

able to counter these ideas and this family? Where we are at the moment,

:42:47.:42:49.

my generation was very much part of the British society we felt very

:42:50.:42:54.

inclusive. I am third, fourth generation now, and I have British

:42:55.:42:59.

values, if we know what the term British values means. That is a

:43:00.:43:04.

debate for another day. I could have Muslim, or faith, Jewish, Christian

:43:05.:43:07.

values, and still have my allegiance to Queen and country. The

:43:08.:43:09.

values, and still have my allegiance needs to be very

:43:10.:43:15.

values, and still have my allegiance What does British values mean? There

:43:16.:43:18.

values, and still have my allegiance is a value and and --

:43:19.:43:21.

values, and still have my allegiance identity. We also have family

:43:22.:43:24.

values, faith values, and other values as well. The two can fit hand

:43:25.:43:27.

in hand together. I am values as well. The two can fit hand

:43:28.:43:32.

made. I think he values as well. The two can fit hand

:43:33.:43:36.

generalising. That is not the case. We do some great work

:43:37.:43:37.

generalising. That is not the case. Bradford with councils for mosques.

:43:38.:43:43.

We work with faith communities, the Jewish communities. We were here

:43:44.:43:48.

with the Christian Muslim Forum last night. There is a great deal of work

:43:49.:43:51.

that goes on. I think the governor needs to the crowd. The whole kind

:43:52.:43:57.

of funding issue has resulted in inclusion, cohesion policy is not

:43:58.:44:00.

working, and other has all been stripped of cash.

:44:01.:44:04.

Over the past few months, a row has been rumbling

:44:05.:44:06.

over, of all things, the exact composition

:44:07.:44:08.

Just before Christmas, the Department for Education held

:44:09.:44:11.

a consultation, which prompted 50,000 people to sign an online

:44:12.:44:13.

petition demanding that women and feminism be put firmly

:44:14.:44:16.

Last night, the argument reached the Commons.

:44:17.:44:29.

Removing feminism from the curriculum is entirely

:44:30.:44:31.

incongruous with the claims of the Prime Minister,

:44:32.:44:34.

across the Despatch Box at PMQs, to myself, only weeks ago,

:44:35.:44:38.

So, as it is, A-level politics covers other ideologies

:44:39.:44:47.

which include sex and gender, gender equality, patriarchy and it

:44:48.:44:50.

covers a knowledge of core ideas, doctrines and theories of feminist

:44:51.:44:53.

thoughts, traditions and distinctive features but when the Government

:44:54.:45:00.

announced plans to revise politics A-level curriculum this section had

:45:01.:45:03.

As had the ideologies of nationalism and multiculturalism.

:45:04.:45:14.

As he is there, I would like to know the status of these

:45:15.:45:17.

The supposed compensation for feminism axing was include

:45:18.:45:20.

a section on pressure groups, so at best, on a generous

:45:21.:45:22.

interpretation, feminism survives here in a reference to suffragists

:45:23.:45:25.

and suffragettes as an example of pressure groups.

:45:26.:45:27.

A lot of lateral thinking and mental gymnastics needed there.

:45:28.:45:35.

As is recently mentioned in the other place, feminism can

:45:36.:45:37.

also be studied within other A-levels.

:45:38.:45:39.

For example, under the reformed sociology A-level students must

:45:40.:45:41.

Exam boards are responsible for setting the detailed

:45:42.:45:47.

content of qualifications in their specifications and schools

:45:48.:45:49.

are free to decide which figures they teach about

:45:50.:45:56.

And following the consultation on the politics A-level,

:45:57.:45:58.

exam boards are making changes to the final content to respond

:45:59.:46:00.

ordable rental sector but what is going done in the bill for private

:46:01.:46:03.

renting sector? Force for to the concerns raised

:46:04.:46:19.

and we will publish our response shortly but I can assure

:46:20.:46:22.

the honourable member that the final politics A-level will give

:46:23.:46:25.

all students the opportunity And I should say that no

:46:26.:46:27.

Education Minister was available We heard the idea would be part of

:46:28.:46:40.

the core syllabus. I'm none the wiser. I looked a at it again today.

:46:41.:46:46.

This stuff gets drip fed through buzzfeed. We heard over Christmas

:46:47.:46:50.

there might be a climbdown. He said it there in the Commons. He was

:46:51.:46:56.

asked to give a list and an explicit commitment that feminism will remain

:46:57.:47:00.

and be reinstated. He has kind of said wait and see. It looked as if

:47:01.:47:04.

the Government has U-turned. I don't know if it is a full U-turn. If so,

:47:05.:47:10.

I'm glad it has happened. We need the detail of what has happened. It

:47:11.:47:13.

took two 17-year-old girls to make this happen, actually. I suppose if

:47:14.:47:19.

two 17-year-old girl guides, the Government knows it is in trouble.

:47:20.:47:24.

But yes, despite the two 7-year-old girls, I don't think they are

:47:25.:47:28.

correct and I think it is all rather silly. I think it is a category

:47:29.:47:34.

error. As I understand t the proposal is to add feminism to

:47:35.:47:38.

Conservative titch, socialism and Liberalism as categories. You don't

:47:39.:47:46.

think it is worthy of that? I think it is a category error. Conserve

:47:47.:47:50.

civil, Liberalism and socialism are broad movement of political thought

:47:51.:47:54.

which reflect the way that people in contrasting views order the world.

:47:55.:47:59.

Feck nichl like otherisms, like racism is a were test movement on

:48:00.:48:03.

behalf of a set of people who feel they are not properly represented in

:48:04.:48:09.

various ways. A set of people, you mean 50% of the population. Yes,

:48:10.:48:13.

that's right but still acting as a protest group as indeed this

:48:14.:48:16.

particular initiative is, because it is all to do with the fact there

:48:17.:48:20.

aren't enough women. In other words, there has to be a certain quota of

:48:21.:48:28.

women. An ideological pressure group politics. That clip you showed was

:48:29.:48:33.

me reading out what was in the old syllabus. It was there and has been

:48:34.:48:37.

deleted. What about the substantial point being put, it is arguable it

:48:38.:48:40.

shouldn't be there in the first place. It doesn't merit the same

:48:41.:48:46.

categorisation as the big political movements? On Antony Gidden's

:48:47.:48:51.

definition, the advancement of women's struggles. I think those

:48:52.:48:56.

things, I don't want agenda-blind curriculum. I think the struggles -

:48:57.:49:01.

the to vote was fought for. We knead to be aware of that. They are linked

:49:02.:49:06.

to, unlike otherisms, it is not anary fairy thing. Women are 50% as

:49:07.:49:12.

Jo says, we cannot delete them from the syllabus. When I heard Will hear

:49:13.:49:18.

the words I don't want a "gender-blind" curriculum. I want to

:49:19.:49:22.

reach for the sick bag. This is pressure group politics. One can say

:49:23.:49:26.

I don't want a curriculum that is blind to... The minister can see

:49:27.:49:29.

they have made some serious mistakes. 29% of MPs are women. My

:49:30.:49:34.

respect for ministers exceeds no-one's but nevertheless I do think

:49:35.:49:42.

occasionally even Conservative ministers run frightened for

:49:43.:49:44.

politically correct pressure groups. Or they believe it. Isn't there a

:49:45.:49:50.

case to be made that gender politics hasn't been solved in that sense or

:49:51.:49:55.

that the form of women hasn't been assured... For sure it is a

:49:56.:49:58.

reasonable argument. I'm not saying for a amendment it shouldn't be

:49:59.:50:02.

covered in the curriculum. I'm talking about the fact that this

:50:03.:50:05.

whole movement seems to be prompted by the idea that there aren't enough

:50:06.:50:09.

women being mentioned, which I think is a worse sort of tokenism and that

:50:10.:50:16.

feminism should be elevated to being the same category as socialism,

:50:17.:50:20.

conservatism or Liberalism, which I think is just a category error. Is

:50:21.:50:26.

it that point? The core syllabus has a selection of key political things.

:50:27.:50:31.

Out of 17, only one woman. Meaning 94% were male. Who would you like to

:50:32.:50:39.

see on that syllabus? Simone, Duvoiva. And Americans who wrote

:50:40.:50:45.

about suburban housewives, something I can identify with, o to some

:50:46.:50:50.

extent. I could furnish them with a long list. Why only one out of 17.

:50:51.:50:57.

It is part of a trend. We had 0 out of 63 composers. It is looking at

:50:58.:51:01.

the wrong end of the at the same time. We can argue about names It is

:51:02.:51:06.

negating... As you say, there must be 50% of the population so, yes...

:51:07.:51:12.

Do they not have a valuable contribution? Maybe there wasn't

:51:13.:51:14.

more than one? I don't know. Start with the principle that the numbers

:51:15.:51:19.

are inherently unfair or unjust... In both occasions, the music

:51:20.:51:24.

syllabus and politics, in each case, both it took my constituents,

:51:25.:51:28.

17-year-old girls to do emanufacture petitions, and the latest one, has

:51:29.:51:32.

done the one on the feminism syllabus. There were 50,000

:51:33.:51:36.

signatures. It is a new type of politics where governments can cave

:51:37.:51:41.

in. Are we all feminists now? Are we all feminists? You and I are sitting

:51:42.:51:46.

here in a television studio... Three women. A good ratio. To that extent,

:51:47.:51:52.

feminism has won. What is the complaint? Thank you on that.

:51:53.:51:56.

Ask someone English what their national anthem

:51:57.:51:58.

But actually that's the British National Anthem.

:51:59.:52:01.

The Scots and Welsh have their own anthems but officially

:52:02.:52:03.

Various tunes have been tried, but now an MP is asking his

:52:04.:52:07.

the Steinway and look up his best patriotic tunes.

:52:08.:52:22.

Given its power to inspire, it's no surprise music is used often

:52:23.:52:27.

to sell, reinforce or create an idea.

:52:28.:52:31.

Certain tunes speak of shared values and pride in being part of that

:52:32.:52:34.

tricky to define concept - "the nation".

:52:35.:52:46.

Some melodies even get to become a national anthem but England

:52:47.:52:49.

doesn't have one, not one all to itself.

:52:50.:52:51.

There's some obvious options, and some of them HAVE been used

:52:52.:52:54.

as an English national anthem but none has been THE anthem.

:52:55.:52:57.

Now you might be thinking, wait a minim!

:52:58.:53:02.

Well, one MP has proposed Parliament looks at finding one.

:53:03.:53:06.

Land of Hope and Glory will be a great anthem.

:53:07.:53:08.

So, we could see one of those traditional

:53:09.:53:14.

favourites but we could also see something new coming through.

:53:15.:53:17.

With David Bowie's demise, what about, We Could Be Heroes?

:53:18.:53:20.

That could be a great theme tune for Britain.

:53:21.:53:22.

Alternatively, maybe, somebody will come up

:53:23.:53:40.

Fan fastic what does an anthem? Anthem -- fantastic Boyce Truss.

:53:41.:53:48.

Something to get people up. If it is insip I had it doesn't work.

:53:49.:53:54.

Something to get people up. If it is the problem, our National Anthem

:53:55.:53:57.

gets branded a bit of a dirge Yes because it was played ape sung

:53:58.:54:00.

badly. When it was written it would have been sung and played at

:54:01.:54:04.

probably twice the speed it does now and people would have stood up in

:54:05.:54:08.

the pub and sung it and ensqloe joyed it. Toby Perkins wants to have

:54:09.:54:13.

a competition about what it should be. Do you have a suggestion? I have

:54:14.:54:17.

one thing I think people might be able to get behind.

:54:18.:54:29.

Not quite an army but certainly Dads, there's a small group who're

:54:30.:54:31.

campaigning for their choice, and they aren't shy about it either.

:54:32.:54:40.

We are getting people singing on the streets web we are going past. We

:54:41.:54:46.

had one restaurant when everyone stood up and applauded us. There is

:54:47.:54:50.

great support out there. It is about time England was able to celebrate

:54:51.:54:55.

being English, at sporting events. Let the Scots and Welsh celebrate

:54:56.:55:00.

theirs and we come at the end and God Save The Queen.

:55:01.:55:09.

So if your feet any time really are walking upon England's mountain

:55:10.:55:11.

(not entirely sure where that is by the way) spare a thought

:55:12.:55:14.

if you're English for what really says England isn't God

:55:15.:55:17.

Save the Queen spreads harmony avoids discord,

:55:18.:55:18.

Toby Perkins has joined us in the studio

:55:19.:55:26.

and we've also been joined by Olympic silver medallist

:55:27.:55:28.

Kriss Akabusi, who won many medals in the 400m hurdles

:55:29.:55:30.

Is this what we are talking about to you on your the doorstep on

:55:31.:55:45.

constituency? A light-hearted film but S the truth is we do need a new

:55:46.:55:51.

settlement for England. Seen the devolution for England and Wales. I

:55:52.:55:55.

have struck by this at the Rugby World Cup, the Welsh were singing

:55:56.:55:58.

their anthem, we are being represented by England but singing

:55:59.:56:02.

the British anthem. The problems with the union, Scots and Welsh see

:56:03.:56:07.

others and England thinking of ourselves as synonymous. This is a

:56:08.:56:10.

part of that. What would you change it to? Jerusalem is my choice but

:56:11.:56:14.

the key thing about the bill is to have a national consultation.

:56:15.:56:19.

the key thing about the bill is to what about you,

:56:20.:56:21.

the key thing about the bill is to saviourioured your Commonwealth

:56:22.:56:26.

medals more if it had been Land of Hope And Glory rather than good save

:56:27.:56:33.

the Queen? It would have worked but the National Anthem is a unifying

:56:34.:56:39.

factor, all under the umbrella. Whatever God you serve, you have

:56:40.:56:43.

Queen and country and the National Anthem and Union Jack says something

:56:44.:56:47.

to me. It is much more than the words, it is a unifying force, it is

:56:48.:56:53.

the idea that 6 million people, I am one, not the only one and I live

:56:54.:56:58.

under the umbrella. -- 60 million. What about the consultation, would

:56:59.:57:09.

you go for anything else under under the English anthem? Well, listening

:57:10.:57:14.

to Toby, and every night as a young man, it was played on it the V

:57:15.:57:19.

screens and I grew up thinking England and Great Britain are

:57:20.:57:23.

synonymous, I understand the clamour for England having its own place. Do

:57:24.:57:27.

you like the tune? Doesn't do a great deal for me, but the fact it

:57:28.:57:31.

it is the National Anthem. It is clear from Toby that this enterprise

:57:32.:57:36.

to change to Jerusalem or whatever is part of a drive to build up

:57:37.:57:42.

English nationalism. I think that is a really rep prehencible things.

:57:43.:57:45.

Wales and Scotland have? It is not good. It is not good. We have a we

:57:46.:57:53.

are a union nighted king do. I agree can Kriss, the National Anthem sung

:57:54.:57:57.

at sporting events is not a team song. It is the declaration by the

:57:58.:58:00.

England team or whoever the sports people are that they have an

:58:01.:58:05.

allegiance to the crown, an allegiance than something bigger,

:58:06.:58:09.

called England, the UK which binds us altogether. Jeremy Corbyn hasn't

:58:10.:58:15.

put you up to this? He hasn't. But it is wrong, if we are competing as

:58:16.:58:20.

England we should be England. When Kriss and people who follow him

:58:21.:58:26.

represent Britain, it should be skop God Save the Queen. I would sing you

:58:27.:58:30.

out but my voice isn't good enough. There's just time before we go

:58:31.:58:34.

to find out the answer to our quiz. What has David Cameron

:58:35.:58:37.

said every child needs? I wish it was D but it is D, a tiger

:58:38.:58:56.

Thanks to Melanie and all my guests. pussycat.

:58:57.:59:00.

I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:59:01.:59:02.

Celebrate a country 4,000 years in the making. China begins here.

:59:03.:59:16.

Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.

:59:17.:59:22.

Jo Coburn is joined by commentator Melanie Phillips for the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Includes an interview with Sarah Wollaston MP, chairman of the health select committee, in response to the junior doctors' strike in England.


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