14/01/2016 Daily Politics

Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Staying in the European

Union and the current terms would be a disaster. Strong words from

Cabinet Minister Chris Grayling. Could David Cameron 's renegotiation

achieve anything which could satisfy his hardline colleagues? David

Cameron has promised to take a wrecking ball to 100 rundown estates

but will the Government's housing strategy really deliver for people

on average incomes? Should you have to declare whether you are a man or

woman on your passport? A from MPs on transgender issues says not. What

do you think? I don't like it. I don't think it's to do with

anything. I don't like that they want to know your age. I agree with

that one. An enterprising Eurosceptic produces a pack of cards

to identify dangerous Europhiles. Eurosceptic produces a pack of cards

All that is coming up in the next hour. With us, Plaid Cymru leader

Leanne Wood. Welcome back to the programme. Last week the Prime

Minister told his colleagues they would be free to campaign to leave

the EU wants his renegotiation is complete and the campaign has begun.

This morning the Leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling is told

the Daily Telegraph that it would be a disaster for Britain to stay

inside the EU as it is constituted at the moment. But he says he

supports David Cameron three negotiation strategy. Let's talk to

Norman Smith. He is in parliament. Norman, Chris Grayling was given the

credit for forcing the Prime Minister to allow Cabinet ministers

to go their own way, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised he is first

to break ranks? No, I don't think we should be surprised and certainly,

Downing Street, they responded with almost a shrug their shoulders and

expected Chris Grayling pretty much to do this. I'm tempted to follow

Paddy Ashdown 's example and say I lead my hat if Chris Grayling

campaigns to remain in the EU. It absolutely clear, is positioning and

self... I will regret that, I absolutely clear, is positioning and

It's pretty clear he will campaign to get out because when you look at

his argument in the Telegraph, is not talking about a minor tweak of

our relations with the EU, not talk about tighter benefit curbs, he's

saying we can't defend ourselves, if we're are as voted by Eurozone

countries even though we are not in the euro, the European Court of

Justice is setting the rules. When you take those sorts of

Justice is setting the rules. When this is not amantadine awkwardly

Justice is setting the rules. When the fence saying, watch and I do? It

is playing his made up his mind that he wants to campaign to leave, but,

at the moment, he is just staying within the Prime Minister 's rules

that he doesn't want anybody breaking ranks ahead of any deal he

wanted to make at next month 's summit. I think your hat is a lot

safer than Paddy Ashdown's. We will summit. I think your hat is a lot

get one ready just in case. What do you think this loosening of Cabinet

responsibility impact the EU debate in your mind? It makes a bit of a

mockery of the Government holding a position in my view. There needs to

be some leadership on this question. And the Government is unable to

provide that leadership when the Cabinet are completely split on it,

at least that's what it looks like it's going to happen, so I think

it's potentially going to cause some confusion and I think the case to

remain in will be made all the more difficult because of this decision

for them to have a free vote. Wide you think are made more difficult?

Eurosceptics are already saying the Government machine will still be

much behind the Prime Minister 's line, post three negotiation, come

what May? But people are going to be confused, looking to the Government

for a position, and they will be hearing different voices coming from

that Government. They will be no clear position, no clarity on what

the Government is saying, that is best. It happened in 1975 and people

managed. I don't remember that one. Let me remind you, the Government

was just a split under Harold Wilson and he was forced to allow his

Cabinet ministers to go their own way. A lot bigger names abound Chris

Grayling, Michael Foot, Tony Benn and so on. They were on programmes

like this. The Government one, 2-1. A huge victory. OK, let's hope the

same result happens again. I'm very much in favour of remaining in the

boat because it's in Wales's best interests, so I'm looking for

clarity around the argument. People need to have the information and

that needs to be provided as clearly as possible and that debate has not

happened yet. Nicola Sturgeon is calling for Scotland to have a veto

happened yet. Nicola Sturgeon is over the results and a referendum on

EU membership. It's doubtful that would be granted but do you agree

with her? Yes, I don't think it's right that one country should vote

in one way and pull the others out potentially against their wills so,

for example, if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to remain and

England votes to leave, then it is not right that one country can pull

the others out. There should be an agreement on part of all four before

Britain withdraws. Now there were heated exchanges of Prime Minister's

Questions yesterday as Jeremy Corbyn pressed to David Cameron on the

government's housing policy. An issue of increasing concern to

voters according to the polls, and this morning Mr Corbyn has been

visiting and new council estate in this morning Mr Corbyn has been

Stevenage to press home labours case for more social housing. In a moment

I'll talk to the Housing Minister Brendan Lewis but first he is Jo

with details of Government plans. As part of his Government housing

plans, David Cameron has pledged to demolish and rebuild England's worst

housing estates. A total of ?140 million will be made available to

community groups, councils and housing associations for the scheme

which would seem 100 housing estates demolished and regenerated. The

Prime Minister says he wants demolished and regenerated. The

rebuild houses, people feel they can have a future in. More broadly, the

Government housing bill which covers England and Wales, aims to transform

generation rent into generation by. The bill includes plans for

so-called starter homes for first-time buyers under the age of

40. These starter homes will be available at 80% of the open market

value. And their price will be capped at ?250,000 outside London,

?450,000 inside the capital. Despite Mr Cameron 's rhetoric, home

ownership in England Mr Cameron 's rhetoric, home

fallen under two thirds since it's been Prime Minister, down from 66%

in 2010-11, down to 63% in 2013-14. The government's plans on housing

where the subject of some heated exchanges between David Cameron and

Jeremy Corbyn at PMQ 's yesterday. Research by shelter found that

families on his so-called living wage will be unable to afford the

average starter home in 98% of local authority areas in England. So

there's only 2% that may benefit from this. So, instead of building

more affordable homes, isn't the Prime Minister handing more homes as

affordable which is not a solution to the housing crisis, will he

confirm that home ownership has fallen since he became Prime

Minister? There is a challenge of helping people buy their own homes,

that's what helped by what about, which they opposed, that's what

helped to say was about, which they opposed, and that's, isn't it

interesting read and answer the question about the 1.3 million

housing association tenants. I want what's best for anybody. Let's put

it like this, Mr Speaker, he owns his home, I owe my home, why won't

he let 1.3 million own their homes? That was yesterday. We are now

joined by Brendan Lewis, the housing minister. Let's look at the plan to

transform this first and see whether it's a plan. When will we know which

one have been chosen for transformation? By the Autumn

Statement. Pretty much at the end of the year? No work on this can begin

before 2017? The work in a sense of working with a local areas and

looking at the plan will be starting straightaway but... How can you do

that when you don't know the weather places are? We will work with local

areas to identify the best places we can work. We will announce that by

the Autumn Statement. You can't start the transformation until 2017?

If there was physical work on the ground, yes, that will be later on.

Towards the end of next year. -- this year. How long will it take to

transform each state? That varies from estate to a state, and depends

what needs to happen. It's complex work which takes time. Give me an

average. It will depend on what the estate is. It depends on what needs

to be done on any given estate. That's why we have to wait to see

what the local area is. Do you have any idea what the average time it

be? It could be a year, four years, it really will depend on what the

local areas want to do. It will be done in conjunction with local

residents and local authorities. Mr Cameron will be long gone from

Downing Street by the time this transformation ever happens? No, he

will still be Prime Minister at the time we start seeing the real

benefit of this work going forward. How many do you reckon will be

transformed widely still in Downing Street? From previous conversations

with that, I'm not a big fan of setting fixed targets. We're only at

the start of with local areas who will come to us to find what is

appropriate to them and we will report that back in the next few

months. What is the estimated total cost? It depends. Some areas have

needed no public money whatsoever that it will vary from place to

place. No public money to transform an estate? Some have been done with

private funding. Which ones have been transformed with no private

money? , no Government money? Keble Village, it's privately led, there's

been a phenomenal piece of work done there. We've also got areas like

Hackney which has been done by the housing association. More important

in those areas, not just bringing back amenities and better quality

places to live, but increasing density dramatically. I understand

the purpose but you must have an estimated total cost in the budget

between now and 2020? How much has been allocated to this project from

the budget overall? We've allocated 140 million to do the work with a

local areas. That is seed capital? What is the total cost? Once it

worked in the open areas to identify what they need are, then we will

report back by the Autumn Statement, the details. As things stand, you

have no real timetable budget? We want a work of local areas, were not

going to do this top-down control, but working with local areas and we

will tailor it to take this forward. You've also said pension funds would

bring up some money for this. How much of pension funds in the last

five years spent on infrastructure in housing? We haven't yet

managed... This is what this is about. There's about ?40 billion,

different independent reports have circulated, want to invest in the

property market. The possibilities for shared ownership... The

Chancellor announced in 2011 plan to for shared ownership... The

get ?18 billion of pension fund money infrastructure in things like

housing. How much has come up so far? At the moment, I don't know. 1

billion. Frankly, on past record, it's unlikely pension funds will

contribute very much if anything to this. It depends on what we do in

specific areas so for example, one thing the pension funds look that is

a private rented sector which can be part of making a viable regeneration

project. I would like to see shared ownership coming into that as well

because there's an opportunity for them to see a return for investors

because there's an opportunity for would provide more housing and at

the higher end. Have you ask the pension fund how much they will put

into this? We are talking to various lenders. Have you spoken to the

pensions? Yes, just before Christmas I spoke to them. Have they given new

indication? Yes, I'm not going to be able to outline that right here and

now. This is pension fund money. It's from around the world,

institution money, who wants to invest. There are confidentiality

issues there. It is important we look at all avenues. All

opportunities to make sure these people have a better opportunity in

the future. I understand that. No one minister will argue with that.

Where will they live while they are states are being rebuilt?

Whilst the rebuild is going on, as it happened, it differs. If you look

at some of the examples, I visited Hackney not too long ago, residents

were moved out, some moved out whilst the work was going on and

have now moved back. There are examples of where this is done and

it is properly managed but what is key and it comes back to my opening

point about working with local communities and residents, this will

only go forward with their support in full knowledge of what we are

planning. Again that will differ. At local residents say they don't want

this it will not happen? We are not looking to impose this, it is about

working with local residents. Will they have guaranteed right to come

back to that locality if they move? Tenants will have an absolute

guaranteed right. We are looking to increase supply. What about those

who have bought the homes and on them in these estates, will they

have a right to own their home back in the estate? People with freehold

properties, if the regeneration goes on and we are clearing the estate

and rebuilding will be bought out and they would use that equity to

buy a home elsewhere like anybody else. It will be a matter of choice.

It would have to be a compulsory purchase? It can be by negotiation

or a compulsory purchase, this can be they from place to place. So they

would sell their home to you or the agency and if they wanted to have

two by two comeback in? Yes, as any freehold would. Tenants will have

the right to come back. You talk about affordable housing but you

include in that definition starter homes costing ?450,000 in London. In

what way can an affordable home be priced at 17 times the average UK

salary? Let's be clear, this is a misnomer, ?450,000, we put that as a

maximum level and bear in mind these are first-time buyers. The average

first-time buyer is well below that, so across England the average

first-time buyer pays approximately 100 is the ?6,000. We take our 20%

this skin. -- 170 ?6,000. Even with the 20% discount, it still huge

multiple of average incomes. Even ?250,000 outside the United Kingdom,

many people will not regard that and will not find that as a affordable.

That is why, what we have to be clear about is look at what is the

average price paid by a first-time buyer? The average price across the

country is in the region of under ?140,000. If you get that with help

to buy a 5% deposit, it's an opportunity for people to buy their

own home. It's also important to extend shared ownership, in London

you can come into shared ownership with a deposit of just ?3400. What

is the average house price in Great Yarmouth? Your constituency? Just

under ?200,000. The latest figures we have it is ?140,000 and that for

many people will be beyond their reach as an affordable house. It

seems your definition of an affordable house is very different

from ordinary people's definition of an affordable house. Let's take my

constituency, new homes being built at the moment. If you take one of

those at ?150,000 and put a 20% discount on that and buy it with

help to buy where you just need a 5% deposit that changes things. It's

also important to extend shared ownership and that councils build

more council homes as well. This is all part of the package. How much

social housing did you build 2013, 2014? In the last five years I know

we build more homes than 13 years of the Labour government. You build

30,000 for rent in 2013, 2014, how many people are on the waiting list?

Far too many. It is going to take you decades. This is why it is

important we give everyone more opportunities to get into a home of

their own. That is ownership, for most people affordable housing, to

begin with at least is a chance to rent and you are doing very little

to provide affordable housing which is rented. We are building

affordable housing at the fastest rate in over 20 years. Affordable

rent as well. You all may build 30,020 13, 20 14. 86% of the

population want to own their own home. Starter homes, 55% of people

in the private rented sector will be able to buy their own home compare

to just 40%. The only way able to buy their own home compare

make homes more affordable in a grand scale would be to build a lot

more homes but you are residing over the lowest peacetime level of

house-building by any government by a century. Is that not something to

be ashamed of? Let's be clear about the numbers, the lowest level was

under John Healey when it was 88 and 95,000, at one point we were within

20,000 of building nothing. Your 95,000, at one point we were within

average is still the lowest peacetime level. We need to go

further. Do you accept that? I agree we have to go from much further but

we came from a very low base. We have got the biggest building

programme since the 1970s. You are now in power for your sixth year, is

the harsh truth is not that for ordinary families in this country a

decent home is now beyond their grasp? This is why it's hugely

important we do everything we can to help more people have

important we do everything we can to opportunities to get their own

important we do everything we can to homes. I am proud that we have

doubled the number of first-time buyers since 2010. After the crash

people could not get a mortgage, house-builders were moving out of

the market, this does a lot to help them come back through into the

market and we want to do more to help small builders. We drive up

supply whilst making sure we can support people on the demand side to

have the opportunity to get into their own home. Leanne Wood is what

is happening in Wales? It's a devolved responsibility. It's not

quite as pressing a question as it is as I think it is in,

quite as pressing a question as it London. When Plaid Cymru was in

coalition with Labour we increased the supply of affordable housing.

There was a Plaid Cymru Minister who did the target. I think this

question about homes for rent is crucial. I am struggling to

understand how in England there is going to be an increase in supply

over all of affordable housing if the right to buy is extended to

housing association homes because we know the previous rate to buy policy

seriously increased the amount... That is why we have pledged to use

the money from right to buy to build more homes which is something Labour

never did. But it is not like for like. We'll have to leave it there,

housing very much on the agenda and we will come back to it.

Discrimination against transgender people need to be tackled the matter

of urgency with reform in the NHS and the prison service at top

priority. The goal of a quality is still a long way off. Amongst the

recommendations by the Commons women and equality 's committee is that

people should no longer have to declare their gender on passports

and other official documents. Adam Wedge outwith the box to test the

public temperature. -- went out with.

Should you be required to put your gender on your passport or not? Are

you getting a passport? My wife is. Issue putting her gender on it? I

believe she has do. Is that good? If you asked me 20 years ago I would

have said it was a daft question but today I would question it. Yes? Do

you want to put it in yourself? I will put it in for you. Gender? I

think so, I don't have a problem with it myself. What about people

who are transgender? I don't know. Do you want to dig a little break?

No, not breaking his stride, I would not either. How do you feel when you

are made to tick the box? I don't like it, I don't think it's anything

to do with anything, the other thing I don't like is when they want to

know your age. You call up British Gas, what is your age? What does it

have to do with you? It's like Gas, what is your age? What does it

filling in a passport form but more pleasurable. Thank you. Thank you.

What box do you think Ziggy stardust would have used? He was an alien, a

Martian. You don't have to put anything if it is a person, it is a

person. What do you call that? What is it? On a passport, what do you

reckon? Should we had to stay our gender on our passports? Maybe

reckon? Should we had to stay our security reasons perhaps yes but

otherwise no. Let's see Russia or India or China or Thailand, when you

make applications they need to see what gender you are so if the

passport doesn't have it it will make the Visa application more

difficult. You sound very well travelled. I am a Visa agent! At the

airport they never check if I am actually a man. No, but you can see,

so if you have a passport actually a man. No, but you can see,

something different at least it actually a man. No, but you can see,

pulls it up and you can see OK, let's have you in and if it came to

a case of having to pull your trousers down to prove who you are

then you've got to do it. We have put people into one category or

another and it looks like the majority of people have said we

should still put our gender on our passports. I am joined by the

chairman of the equalities commission, Maria Miller and Kellie

Maloney is boxing promoter was known as Frank Maloney. How should this

work? As we have said in this report, it is the first report we

have produced and we're proud it is an transgender issues, we are trying

to make sure that gender does not get in the way of having official

documents therefore everyone to use. At the moment transgender people

feel it can be difficult to put themselves into male or female

pigeonholes and indeed we don't think it necessarily adds much to

the information the think it necessarily adds much to

collecting. That is only one of a number of more than 30

recommendations we have put forward to improve the lives of trans

people. Do you agree it's difficult to categorise yourself, I would have

thought it was clear if you are transgender going from man to woman

or a woman to man who you are? I agree with you, I was so pleased to

put my just bought -- passport and divers licence to female. Some

put my just bought -- passport and people don't recognise with any

gender so if they want to put something that is down to them but I

and a lot of my friends who have gone through the same journey as me

wanted to put the cross there. That's correct, transgender covers a

wide range of people. 44% of people in the country realise that gender

is quite a fluid design and that shows a real change in public

opinion. I don't understand it and I am part of the transgender

community. At my support group I keep learning different things every

day. I think a lot of the other groups are using the trans-umbrella

for their means. As far as I am concerned I am a woman and that is

it. And a female to male is a man. Would you support the idea of

removing someone's gender from official documentation, for example

like a passport but also drivers license or other official documents?

I think it is up to the individual. The point brought up is important,

if that someone has made the transition, it is important that

that is recognised legally that all public services support that and I

think some of public services support that and I

seen in our prisons recently show that that is still a real concern.

That is where you might require official bodies to actually state on

a form whether you are male or female otherwise you end up in the

wrong sort of ward in a hospital. I think that is much more important

than a passport or driver 's license. You would want to see it,

because you could end up in the wrong sex prison and we know,

tragically, some people have taken their own lives as a result of that.

So will that is not confuse the issue? As I said this is one of just

dirty recommendations. -- 30 recommendations. But it is quite

important. The current process is quite long. Quite long. Intrusive.

It involves being diagnosed with a medical condition which many trans

people don't think they have. We want to change the process, so the

point about passports is much broader, as a society we are quite

transfixed on peoples gender and maybe that is not healthy for men,

or anyone. What would you like to see happen in

terms of transfer OBR? There's a legal side about how you would

legally define yourself but what else would you do to do something to

tackle the nation? I would like to see the NHS, doctors, schoolteachers

aware of it. Some people have gone through troubles because the schools

don't understand it. A lot of my friends talking about it, all we

want to be is, why make special rules for us? We are happy in our

lifestyle and we are contented, just give us the same treatment and

respect you give to a normal woman and vice versa for a

respect you give to a normal woman should be protected under those

rules without having special rules. The NHS comes out of this quite

badly. When we took evidence on public services from organisations

and trans people, the NHS, there were considerable problems there

throughout, not only accessing services but actually, even when

specialist services and support it been prescribed by consultants, some

GPs were refusing to take it forward and one of the things I feel very

strongly about is that people who regulate the medical profession need

to take a strong stance on this and they should be zero tolerance to any

transfer OBR at what ever level in the NHS. That's the hardest part

when you transition. It's a physical thing, a mental thing, and if you

don't have help and support, that's why the suicide rate is higher than

in any other group. There have been more discussion, though, about

transgender. Do you think that there needs to be more debate? Is this a

priority issue in terms of equality? I do, yes, and I dealt with a number

of cases personally from people who have really struggled to negotiate

the health service and dealing with things like discrimination,

harassment, for the police to take it seriously, they're all kinds of

different issues that, as a society, we have not got grips with yet. A

lot of people just have not had any experience of this. Leanne is a

politician and we'll see people in his surgery. I actually do some

politician and we'll see people in in Swansea, there's a good

supportive group there. That's good to know. Education at a young age,

my generation need education. It is getting better, though. Young people

and teenagers and people in their 20s are much more understanding. I

talk at schools and it's fascinating the questions that the pupils ask

you. And they are not frightened to ask? That's the great thing about

it. Thanks very much. We welcome viewers from Scotland. You're now

with the Daily Politics. Just when you thought you had of elections for

a while it's time to think about them again, there will be one in

Wales for example in just 113 days. I bet you can hardly wait. The Welsh

Assembly and its 60 seats are up for grabs. We have been looking at the

political landscape in Wales ahead of the election.

Wales is getting ready for an election. Everyone knows you can't

have an election these days without a TV debate. I don't want Wales and

Britain to surrender our place in the world. This one was about the EU

referendum. And this guy is not even a candidate. You didn't do it, it

because you haven't got the power to do it because we've given that way

to Brussels. His party are expecting to do well. They say the very fact

the current First Minister of Wales prepare to debate shows Labour

public think so too. It's the same old same old in Wales. This sort of

idea of there being opposition politics has not happened. Plaid

Cymru, the Lib Dems and the Labour Party said in the same area at the

critical spectrum and so the fact Carwyn Jones is debating Nigel

Farage shows is a massive deficit in terms of opposition because we're

not yet in the assembly and yet he deems we are public the best

opponents to actually represent two sides of an argument. We have been

here before and we were here with Plaid Cymru in the 1970s and the

1990s. Ukip other current vehicle for people who are unhappy. What we

have to say is, what we have in Wales is a health service where

there's more money spent, education where standards are at a rapid rate,

the best investment figures for 30 years, unemployment lower than

London, we focus on improving people's lives. Labour has

controlled the Welsh Assembly since the first elections in 1999. It's

never had an overall majority. Ruling instead as a minority

Government or in a power-sharing arrangement. Polls suggest it could

be heading that way again and the talk here is a coalition. There are

60 seats up for grabs in the assembly. 40 of them are directly

elected by constituency, the same as Westminster MPs. 20 are elected on a

proportional representation bases from regional party lists. At the

moment Labour controls the Welsh Assembly with 36, the Conservatives,

14, Plaid Cymru, 11, and the Lib Dems, five. More people voted Welsh

Conservative at the last general election in May than ever voted for

Labour in assembly elections ever. Not just one election, but ever.

This is a unique opportunity for us to break through and actually had a

Welsh Conservative Government, otherwise it will be more of the

same because the Liberals and Plaid Cymru have cut deals with labour

time and time again to prop them up in a minority administration in

Cardiff Bay. Plaid Cymru think they will pick up more seats. The party

had plenty of coverage in the general election but failed to

capitalise and were beaten into fourth place by Ukip on vote share

and of course, it's a different battle ground this time around, at

least it should be. The problem with devolution in Wales is people don't

understand the difference between the national elections and the local

elections in terms of what the issues should be, so within Wales we

should be focusing on the devolved areas of Government. Those are

education, health and reckon the Government in those areas be what

the battles are fought. It always happens that the national issues and

the views of the National party has an impact. Labour and the Tories

have their fair share of UK wide issues, to defend, giving the

smaller parties an opportunity. But quite how they capitalise on that

could prove more critical to them internally than it does the seating

plan in Cardiff Bay. And the leader of Plaid Cymru is

with us today. Leanne Wood, is your New Year 's resolution for 2016 must

try harder? My resolution for 2016 is to put before the people in Wales

and alternative Government, and alternative programme, an

alternative team of people who can run the Government better than the

existing labour lot have done. Why was 2015 a big disappointment for

you? We didn't gain any extra seats. You did not get that many votes.

Even Ukip got more. Yes, that was a disappointment and I think the

National Assembly is different. We are consistently polled higher in

the National Assembly elections, so next May, I am hoping to sleep a

different result. You have 11 assembly members of the moment. 14

for the Tories, 34 Labour. Five Lib Dems. If you don't improve on the

11, will you consider that, for you, it is your time up in your role? I'm

not thinking of those lines at all for that no, I have a clear

political project, around building a nation and we have got, in Wales, so

many aspects of our national character, which have not yet been

built. We are lacking in basic institutions can we have no banking

and finance system for example. Criminal Justice is not evolved.

and finance system for example. There was a lot to do in terms of

building up a country and my party is in an important position to do

that. What would you regard as a decent result on top of the 11 you

already have? I very much want Plaid Cymru to be leading the Government

after next May. We have had 17 years of a Labour Government in one guise

or another, there's been some coalitions within that, but for one

party to lead a Government for that length of time, I don't know of any

other place in the world who has that. How many assembly members

would you need? It's very difficult to predict figures. Forgive me, I'm

not asking for a prediction but an aspiration. What would you hope to

achieve? It's only five months away. I would hope to achieve a majority,

obviously. It's unlikely. The system we have got makes it difficult for

one party to form a majority. You are third in the polls at the

moment, a couple of points out of Ukip. Yes, we have some work to do

before May, I accept that. You don't seem, your party, your cause,

doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Well, you might say that. I just

did, I think. You did. Isn't it? There's a growing body in Wales who

recognise the Government we have got is not as good as it gets and

recognise that they have been taken for granted by that same party that

has run the Government for that length of time and it is now time

for a change and it only Plaid Cymru who's in position to really offer

the change in Wales needs. Wales used to attract huge amount of

inward investment, 15% of all investment coming into the UK. And

it has really tailed off since devolution. Why? There may be a

number of different reasons for that. One of which is that there has

been, certainly in recent years, nobody promoting Wales outside the

country and interestingly, yesterday, my party 's economic

spokesperson announced that we want Wales to have a developed agency for

the 21st-century, running back a brand which was ditched in the past

in order to promote Wales abroad and then, of course, we would hope that

such a body would increase Wales' inward investment, but I would not

want to make a point that previous strategies which solely focused on

inward investment have not worked for us in Wales. We need to do a lot

more to encourage and support indigenous businesses and that's why

we have put together a package of support for small and medium-size

enterprises which formed the backbone of the economy. Inward

investment has got worse since devolution. There may be a

connection or not. Statistically it's got a lot worse. Have the NHS

got worse since devolution? The NHS it's got a lot worse. Have the NHS

has got worse under Labour's stewardship in Wales. No doubt about

that. If you compare the outcome between Wales and other parts of the

UK, we are not good in many areas and if you look at things like the

number of doctors we have per head of the population, Wales has fewer

doctors per head of the population than any other part of UK and, in

fact, there's only three other countries in the EU that are in a

better position than we are. There has been a lack of workforce... A

worse position? Yes, so workforce planning is a key issue that the

worse position? Yes, so workforce Government has failed to get

worse position? Yes, so workforce grips with over many years now.

Thank you. We will talk to a lot more about these issues in the May

election. Let's continue on elections. Why did Labour lose last

year 's general election? The former Labour Cabinet minister Margaret

Beckett has written a report about the failure but the reporter has yet

to be released amidst accusations that the leadership are sitting on

what might be uncomfortable reading for Jeremy Corbyn and his

colleagues. Former leadership contender Chuka Umunna has added his

voice to those calling for the report to be released, talking to

Eleanor Garnier. I think it's absolutely essential to this report

is published. I was interviewed for it along with many different people

who contributed to the general election effort and I think if

anybody is serious about as kicking the Tories out in 2020, and before

that delivering a Labour victory across the country, not just in

London, in 2016, we need to learn the lessons and ensure that we get

into office. So we can deliver on Labour values. What do you think the

report is going to say? I would be most surprised if there isn't some

comment about our perceived economic competence in the eyes of the voter,

but, beyond that, I think too often people in the lead up to the general

election went always too sure what the Labour Party stood for and what

our policies where. Chuka Umunna there. The polling expert John

Curtis had a phone report out today about why the pollsters got it so

wrong in the run-up to the general election and he joins us now from

Glasgow. Ruth Lea, on Chuka Umunna, and what you are saying, presumably

you would like to see what it Margaret Beckett's report. Of

course, anyone is interested in politics and polls will be delighted

the Labour Party would publish support, particularly to see the

opinion polls the Labour Party was conducting before the election. It

has been claimed that those opinion polls suggested Labour's position

was much weaker than the polls published, so those of us were

interested in trying to find out why the polls got it wrong. It's

something of a disappointment that information has not been put into

the public domain. Yawn that in truth, I suspect we would largely

agree that the evidence so far in the public domain is economic

competence and a lack of abroad story of what Labour stood for was

central to their problems. It's not clear when that report will be

published by understand it will be published in due course in the next

week or so but let's turn to your report. You don't have that

information yet from the Labour Party 's internal investigation.

What were your conclusions when you looked at by the pollsters got it

wrong in the general election? This report is based on a survey which

was very simple. We went out during the course of four months on the

back end of last year and asked people how they voted in the

election and the crucial thing we found out is that we were actually

able to replicate the results. We have a 6-point lead in the survey

for that you may say so what? The so what is that much of the commentary

about why the opinion polls got it wrong essentially said, people are

not being honest with the pollsters and not to themselves. Tories are

reluctant to declare their preference for Labour voters are not

willing to admit they did not make it to the polls. If that were true,

any other survey conducted, however it was done, should, come up the

same problem with lover don't find enough Conservative voters but

British social attitudes does not have this problem as indeed is also

true of the British election study full for the crucial thing about

both these surveys if they are done very, very differently from the

opinion polls. They are done as pure random poverty samples and in

particular, they spent a lot of effort trying to get hold of the

people that they want to interview were as opinion polls only have two

or three days. One of the crucial things we find in today's report is

that those people who voted Labour are easier to find, easy to contact,

than Conservative voters. Look at those who responded to

than Conservative voters. Look at social attitudes on the first

interview, we have a Labour lead forth it's only when we are

persistent but the Conservative voters are uncovered so that it is

one indication. The problem with the polls if they were not simply bring

in Conservative voters. It would be how the polls are done and it's

pretty crucial in understanding them.

So not so much shy Tories but unavailable and difficult to find,

how do you fix that? That is difficult because no opinion poll

can afford to spend four months finding out how people will vote.

One idea is to try to find out what, if any, are the demographic

characteristics which will help to identify these easily available

labour voters. Secondly, I think that perhaps it would be better if

instead of us having an opinion poll every single day of the election

campaign we had fewer and that more effort was taken to try to get hold

of people and that at least might end up with fewer polls but they

would be more accurate. Thank you. Sad news whilst we have been on air,

it has been reported that Alan Rickman, star of stage and screen

has died at the age of only 69 of cancer. The same as David Bowie

earlier this week. A sad day indeed. Nicky Morgan, the Education

Secretary will announce plans to extend a scheme to recruit the best

graduates into children's social care across England. The programme

was launched in 2013 in response to serious concerns over quality of

workers in the sector. Here a clip from a promotional video. This is to

thank you. Being yourself. Poor keeping it real. I did not feel like

I was one of your caseloads. Thank you for what you have done for me

over the years. You have been there for everything. It's a brilliant

buzz to see people do well and think for themselves and feel you have

made a difference. That is really satisfying. It's definitely been a

pleasure to have known you and have had you in my life. That is

wonderful isn't it? That makes it all worthwhile.

Joining us are the chief executive of front line in Dunstable and a

professor of social work at Kingston University who is in Salford. How

does front line deferred? We go to careers fairs and universities and

try to attract people, we have been able to put that into the times top

100 careers list for the first time ever. It's also an intensive

programme, two years and you qualify at the end of the first 12 months

and the idea we are trying to recruit people to come into social

work and work directly with children and families but also people who

have decent sense of social purpose and want to address social

disadvantage and social work has the power to tackle that. Do you support

this idea? My first concern is that this is a privilege group of

students coming into social work who are much better funded. They are

sent out to families after only a few weeks of basic training. I am

concerned about the fast track nature of the programme and how

rushed it is. I am also concerned nature of the programme and how

that the students are being promised they can move into management and

leadership roles very quickly, promotion within the civil service

and move away from the front line quickly before they have much

experience. Thirdly I am concerned that this does not address the big

issue which is we have seen a 70% increase in child protection

issue which is we have seen a 70% load in the last six years when the

government has reduced funding to local government by 40%. It doesn't

tackle the root cause of the problem, recruiting social workers

in the first place? It makes a big condition towards it. There are

around 4000 social work posts vacant in England right now and recruiting

new talent to join the ranks of existing social workers is an

important issue to address. Is it not to tier system? -- two. Not that

all, the people who qualify quickly become colleagues who have qualified

with the same license to practice. And they have qualified after having

had more time in practice with families before they get given a

licence than on many other routes. So it's not true to say they are not

fully prepared for the realities of child protection work. Is it not the

case we desperately need more social workers, people who want to take

this up and if there is a body or a scheme who are going to promote the

provision of social work more positively then that's a good thing?

It's a good thing to promote social work, it's an important profession

doing important work. But there are three and a half thousand social

work students qualifying each year and front line I think will be

qualifying very quickly about 200 students per year. Whilst a lot of

money is going into this programme for this privileged group of

students, most are having to fund themselves or survive on a bursary

of around 300 ?300,000 a year. There is an inequality and we need social

workers to build up wisdom, experience and stay at front

workers to build up wisdom, practice which is not being promised

workers to build up wisdom, for these students, they can move

into Manor ship and -- management and leadership quickly. This

argument around leadership is interesting, our position is that

social work practice is a leadership exercise, people need to build great

relationships very quickly with families, the police, health

visitors, the court. They need to set out a vision for a family and

help a family change in difficult circumstances. That is what we mean

by leadership so yes, some of the people on the programme may

eventually go and become team managers and future directors in the

social services, which would be no bad thing, but when we talk about

developing leadership and social work we mean developing people who

can be great social workers. Leanne Wood Samu used to be a social

worker. I qualified as a social worker to work as a probation

officer. How would you attract people to try the profession? It's

more about retaining the staff already in the profession because

it's a very difficult job. There are high levels of and load and stress

and people often burnt out quickly. I would argue that you could put in

things like more supervision and support for existing social workers

and cut the workloads and that would have a marked difference. So you

agree that this is money resources that is being used in perhaps the

wrong way? If people are being fast tracked into management it won't

deal with the problem social services departments face which is a

lack of social workers on the ground. That's what we need. We need

extra people in the service. This whole situation has not been helped

by the cuts agenda to social services departments. If those

departments were properly invested in and the existing social workers

had the correct amount of support under reasonable workload then there

would not be these issues staff retention. On the issue of staff

retention how will you counter that because in the end they will have

similar bombs to existing trainees in social work? Yes, and the reality

is that it differs across the system in England. Some local authorities

keep hold of social workers very well, develop them and they can

remain in practice and get promoted. The early indications are very

promising, 90% of the people who join the programme have gone into

practice as a qualified social worker as opposed to under 60% for

other routes so that is encouraging. I'm sorry, we're running out of time

so I had to stop you, thank you both very much. Cast your mind back to

2003, the Iraq war. The playing cards, that the US military issue to

help troops identify the most wanted members of the Saddam Hussein

government. Saddam Hussein himself was famously the ace of spades with

his son is the ace of clubs and hearts. The cards were called the

personality identification playing cards. And enterprising Eurosceptic

has now produced a pack of cards to help Eurosceptics identify the

enemy, dangerous Europhiles. The king of hearts is young college of

her -- Jean-Claude Juncker. These cards are already being used,

Dan Hannan tweeted a picture of himself with them. The creator of

the cards is in our Liverpool studio, how long did it take to

research all these and the courts? Strangely enough the courts which

are all freely available on the Internet probably took me about a

week -- the courts. It was then a question of whittling them down to

the final selection. I wish you would come and do some research

the final selection. I wish you me, that is very quick! Is it right

to complain Iraq with what you call the European regime -- to compare? I

think there is no comparison at all, the regime of Saddam Hussein was a

very different proposition. It's just for the satire. I can see a bit

of fun but the American king of spades was chemical Ali who murders

thousands of Kurdish rebellions, yours is a Belgian whose only the

indiscretion is eating too many waffles. Yes but I am not making a

comparison between Saddam Hussein and any of the Eurocrats. That may

be so, so why did you put the hammer and sickle on the back of every

card? It's just an interesting moniker, it's commonly widely used

amongst the Eurosceptic community. It is a freely available design.

It's a bit of a hackneyed design, a lot of people use it but it's just

seemed the most appropriate. Thank you for joining us, very

interesting. Take a card, any card, not that one. Thanks to our guest, I

will be back this evening with Michael Portillo, Nicola Roberts,

join us at 1145 BBC One and back here on BBC Two at noon with daily

politics. Goodbye. Let your New Year start with a bang

and visit an explosive new China.