14/01/2016 Daily Politics


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 14/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Staying in the European


Union and the current terms would be a disaster. Strong words from


Cabinet Minister Chris Grayling. Could David Cameron 's renegotiation


achieve anything which could satisfy his hardline colleagues? David


Cameron has promised to take a wrecking ball to 100 rundown estates


but will the Government's housing strategy really deliver for people


on average incomes? Should you have to declare whether you are a man or


woman on your passport? A from MPs on transgender issues says not. What


do you think? I don't like it. I don't think it's to do with


anything. I don't like that they want to know your age. I agree with


that one. An enterprising Eurosceptic produces a pack of cards


to identify dangerous Europhiles. Eurosceptic produces a pack of cards


All that is coming up in the next hour. With us, Plaid Cymru leader


Leanne Wood. Welcome back to the programme. Last week the Prime


Minister told his colleagues they would be free to campaign to leave


the EU wants his renegotiation is complete and the campaign has begun.


This morning the Leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling is told


the Daily Telegraph that it would be a disaster for Britain to stay


inside the EU as it is constituted at the moment. But he says he


supports David Cameron three negotiation strategy. Let's talk to


Norman Smith. He is in parliament. Norman, Chris Grayling was given the


credit for forcing the Prime Minister to allow Cabinet ministers


to go their own way, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised he is first


to break ranks? No, I don't think we should be surprised and certainly,


Downing Street, they responded with almost a shrug their shoulders and


expected Chris Grayling pretty much to do this. I'm tempted to follow


Paddy Ashdown 's example and say I lead my hat if Chris Grayling


campaigns to remain in the EU. It absolutely clear, is positioning and


self... I will regret that, I absolutely clear, is positioning and


It's pretty clear he will campaign to get out because when you look at


his argument in the Telegraph, is not talking about a minor tweak of


our relations with the EU, not talk about tighter benefit curbs, he's


saying we can't defend ourselves, if we're are as voted by Eurozone


countries even though we are not in the euro, the European Court of


Justice is setting the rules. When you take those sorts of


Justice is setting the rules. When this is not amantadine awkwardly


Justice is setting the rules. When the fence saying, watch and I do? It


is playing his made up his mind that he wants to campaign to leave, but,


at the moment, he is just staying within the Prime Minister 's rules


that he doesn't want anybody breaking ranks ahead of any deal he


wanted to make at next month 's summit. I think your hat is a lot


safer than Paddy Ashdown's. We will summit. I think your hat is a lot


get one ready just in case. What do you think this loosening of Cabinet


responsibility impact the EU debate in your mind? It makes a bit of a


mockery of the Government holding a position in my view. There needs to


be some leadership on this question. And the Government is unable to


provide that leadership when the Cabinet are completely split on it,


at least that's what it looks like it's going to happen, so I think


it's potentially going to cause some confusion and I think the case to


remain in will be made all the more difficult because of this decision


for them to have a free vote. Wide you think are made more difficult?


Eurosceptics are already saying the Government machine will still be


much behind the Prime Minister 's line, post three negotiation, come


what May? But people are going to be confused, looking to the Government


for a position, and they will be hearing different voices coming from


that Government. They will be no clear position, no clarity on what


the Government is saying, that is best. It happened in 1975 and people


managed. I don't remember that one. Let me remind you, the Government


was just a split under Harold Wilson and he was forced to allow his


Cabinet ministers to go their own way. A lot bigger names abound Chris


Grayling, Michael Foot, Tony Benn and so on. They were on programmes


like this. The Government one, 2-1. A huge victory. OK, let's hope the


same result happens again. I'm very much in favour of remaining in the


boat because it's in Wales's best interests, so I'm looking for


clarity around the argument. People need to have the information and


that needs to be provided as clearly as possible and that debate has not


happened yet. Nicola Sturgeon is calling for Scotland to have a veto


happened yet. Nicola Sturgeon is over the results and a referendum on


EU membership. It's doubtful that would be granted but do you agree


with her? Yes, I don't think it's right that one country should vote


in one way and pull the others out potentially against their wills so,


for example, if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to remain and


England votes to leave, then it is not right that one country can pull


the others out. There should be an agreement on part of all four before


Britain withdraws. Now there were heated exchanges of Prime Minister's


Questions yesterday as Jeremy Corbyn pressed to David Cameron on the


government's housing policy. An issue of increasing concern to


voters according to the polls, and this morning Mr Corbyn has been


visiting and new council estate in this morning Mr Corbyn has been


Stevenage to press home labours case for more social housing. In a moment


I'll talk to the Housing Minister Brendan Lewis but first he is Jo


with details of Government plans. As part of his Government housing


plans, David Cameron has pledged to demolish and rebuild England's worst


housing estates. A total of ?140 million will be made available to


community groups, councils and housing associations for the scheme


which would seem 100 housing estates demolished and regenerated. The


Prime Minister says he wants demolished and regenerated. The


rebuild houses, people feel they can have a future in. More broadly, the


Government housing bill which covers England and Wales, aims to transform


generation rent into generation by. The bill includes plans for


so-called starter homes for first-time buyers under the age of


40. These starter homes will be available at 80% of the open market


value. And their price will be capped at ?250,000 outside London,


?450,000 inside the capital. Despite Mr Cameron 's rhetoric, home


ownership in England Mr Cameron 's rhetoric, home


fallen under two thirds since it's been Prime Minister, down from 66%


in 2010-11, down to 63% in 2013-14. The government's plans on housing


where the subject of some heated exchanges between David Cameron and


Jeremy Corbyn at PMQ 's yesterday. Research by shelter found that


families on his so-called living wage will be unable to afford the


average starter home in 98% of local authority areas in England. So


there's only 2% that may benefit from this. So, instead of building


more affordable homes, isn't the Prime Minister handing more homes as


affordable which is not a solution to the housing crisis, will he


confirm that home ownership has fallen since he became Prime


Minister? There is a challenge of helping people buy their own homes,


that's what helped by what about, which they opposed, that's what


helped to say was about, which they opposed, and that's, isn't it


interesting read and answer the question about the 1.3 million


housing association tenants. I want what's best for anybody. Let's put


it like this, Mr Speaker, he owns his home, I owe my home, why won't


he let 1.3 million own their homes? That was yesterday. We are now


joined by Brendan Lewis, the housing minister. Let's look at the plan to


transform this first and see whether it's a plan. When will we know which


one have been chosen for transformation? By the Autumn


Statement. Pretty much at the end of the year? No work on this can begin


before 2017? The work in a sense of working with a local areas and


looking at the plan will be starting straightaway but... How can you do


that when you don't know the weather places are? We will work with local


areas to identify the best places we can work. We will announce that by


the Autumn Statement. You can't start the transformation until 2017?


If there was physical work on the ground, yes, that will be later on.


Towards the end of next year. -- this year. How long will it take to


transform each state? That varies from estate to a state, and depends


what needs to happen. It's complex work which takes time. Give me an


average. It will depend on what the estate is. It depends on what needs


to be done on any given estate. That's why we have to wait to see


what the local area is. Do you have any idea what the average time it


be? It could be a year, four years, it really will depend on what the


local areas want to do. It will be done in conjunction with local


residents and local authorities. Mr Cameron will be long gone from


Downing Street by the time this transformation ever happens? No, he


will still be Prime Minister at the time we start seeing the real


benefit of this work going forward. How many do you reckon will be


transformed widely still in Downing Street? From previous conversations


with that, I'm not a big fan of setting fixed targets. We're only at


the start of with local areas who will come to us to find what is


appropriate to them and we will report that back in the next few


months. What is the estimated total cost? It depends. Some areas have


needed no public money whatsoever that it will vary from place to


place. No public money to transform an estate? Some have been done with


private funding. Which ones have been transformed with no private


money? , no Government money? Keble Village, it's privately led, there's


been a phenomenal piece of work done there. We've also got areas like


Hackney which has been done by the housing association. More important


in those areas, not just bringing back amenities and better quality


places to live, but increasing density dramatically. I understand


the purpose but you must have an estimated total cost in the budget


between now and 2020? How much has been allocated to this project from


the budget overall? We've allocated 140 million to do the work with a


local areas. That is seed capital? What is the total cost? Once it


worked in the open areas to identify what they need are, then we will


report back by the Autumn Statement, the details. As things stand, you


have no real timetable budget? We want a work of local areas, were not


going to do this top-down control, but working with local areas and we


will tailor it to take this forward. You've also said pension funds would


bring up some money for this. How much of pension funds in the last


five years spent on infrastructure in housing? We haven't yet


managed... This is what this is about. There's about ?40 billion,


different independent reports have circulated, want to invest in the


property market. The possibilities for shared ownership... The


Chancellor announced in 2011 plan to for shared ownership... The


get ?18 billion of pension fund money infrastructure in things like


housing. How much has come up so far? At the moment, I don't know. 1


billion. Frankly, on past record, it's unlikely pension funds will


contribute very much if anything to this. It depends on what we do in


specific areas so for example, one thing the pension funds look that is


a private rented sector which can be part of making a viable regeneration


project. I would like to see shared ownership coming into that as well


because there's an opportunity for them to see a return for investors


because there's an opportunity for would provide more housing and at


the higher end. Have you ask the pension fund how much they will put


into this? We are talking to various lenders. Have you spoken to the


pensions? Yes, just before Christmas I spoke to them. Have they given new


indication? Yes, I'm not going to be able to outline that right here and


now. This is pension fund money. It's from around the world,


institution money, who wants to invest. There are confidentiality


issues there. It is important we look at all avenues. All


opportunities to make sure these people have a better opportunity in


the future. I understand that. No one minister will argue with that.


Where will they live while they are states are being rebuilt?


Whilst the rebuild is going on, as it happened, it differs. If you look


at some of the examples, I visited Hackney not too long ago, residents


were moved out, some moved out whilst the work was going on and


have now moved back. There are examples of where this is done and


it is properly managed but what is key and it comes back to my opening


point about working with local communities and residents, this will


only go forward with their support in full knowledge of what we are


planning. Again that will differ. At local residents say they don't want


this it will not happen? We are not looking to impose this, it is about


working with local residents. Will they have guaranteed right to come


back to that locality if they move? Tenants will have an absolute


guaranteed right. We are looking to increase supply. What about those


who have bought the homes and on them in these estates, will they


have a right to own their home back in the estate? People with freehold


properties, if the regeneration goes on and we are clearing the estate


and rebuilding will be bought out and they would use that equity to


buy a home elsewhere like anybody else. It will be a matter of choice.


It would have to be a compulsory purchase? It can be by negotiation


or a compulsory purchase, this can be they from place to place. So they


would sell their home to you or the agency and if they wanted to have


two by two comeback in? Yes, as any freehold would. Tenants will have


the right to come back. You talk about affordable housing but you


include in that definition starter homes costing ?450,000 in London. In


what way can an affordable home be priced at 17 times the average UK


salary? Let's be clear, this is a misnomer, ?450,000, we put that as a


maximum level and bear in mind these are first-time buyers. The average


first-time buyer is well below that, so across England the average


first-time buyer pays approximately 100 is the ?6,000. We take our 20%


this skin. -- 170 ?6,000. Even with the 20% discount, it still huge


multiple of average incomes. Even ?250,000 outside the United Kingdom,


many people will not regard that and will not find that as a affordable.


That is why, what we have to be clear about is look at what is the


average price paid by a first-time buyer? The average price across the


country is in the region of under ?140,000. If you get that with help


to buy a 5% deposit, it's an opportunity for people to buy their


own home. It's also important to extend shared ownership, in London


you can come into shared ownership with a deposit of just ?3400. What


is the average house price in Great Yarmouth? Your constituency? Just


under ?200,000. The latest figures we have it is ?140,000 and that for


many people will be beyond their reach as an affordable house. It


seems your definition of an affordable house is very different


from ordinary people's definition of an affordable house. Let's take my


constituency, new homes being built at the moment. If you take one of


those at ?150,000 and put a 20% discount on that and buy it with


help to buy where you just need a 5% deposit that changes things. It's


also important to extend shared ownership and that councils build


more council homes as well. This is all part of the package. How much


social housing did you build 2013, 2014? In the last five years I know


we build more homes than 13 years of the Labour government. You build


30,000 for rent in 2013, 2014, how many people are on the waiting list?


Far too many. It is going to take you decades. This is why it is


important we give everyone more opportunities to get into a home of


their own. That is ownership, for most people affordable housing, to


begin with at least is a chance to rent and you are doing very little


to provide affordable housing which is rented. We are building


affordable housing at the fastest rate in over 20 years. Affordable


rent as well. You all may build 30,020 13, 20 14. 86% of the


population want to own their own home. Starter homes, 55% of people


in the private rented sector will be able to buy their own home compare


to just 40%. The only way able to buy their own home compare


make homes more affordable in a grand scale would be to build a lot


more homes but you are residing over the lowest peacetime level of


house-building by any government by a century. Is that not something to


be ashamed of? Let's be clear about the numbers, the lowest level was


under John Healey when it was 88 and 95,000, at one point we were within


20,000 of building nothing. Your 95,000, at one point we were within


average is still the lowest peacetime level. We need to go


further. Do you accept that? I agree we have to go from much further but


we came from a very low base. We have got the biggest building


programme since the 1970s. You are now in power for your sixth year, is


the harsh truth is not that for ordinary families in this country a


decent home is now beyond their grasp? This is why it's hugely


important we do everything we can to help more people have


important we do everything we can to opportunities to get their own


important we do everything we can to homes. I am proud that we have


doubled the number of first-time buyers since 2010. After the crash


people could not get a mortgage, house-builders were moving out of


the market, this does a lot to help them come back through into the


market and we want to do more to help small builders. We drive up


supply whilst making sure we can support people on the demand side to


have the opportunity to get into their own home. Leanne Wood is what


is happening in Wales? It's a devolved responsibility. It's not


quite as pressing a question as it is as I think it is in,


quite as pressing a question as it London. When Plaid Cymru was in


coalition with Labour we increased the supply of affordable housing.


There was a Plaid Cymru Minister who did the target. I think this


question about homes for rent is crucial. I am struggling to


understand how in England there is going to be an increase in supply


over all of affordable housing if the right to buy is extended to


housing association homes because we know the previous rate to buy policy


seriously increased the amount... That is why we have pledged to use


the money from right to buy to build more homes which is something Labour


never did. But it is not like for like. We'll have to leave it there,


housing very much on the agenda and we will come back to it.


Discrimination against transgender people need to be tackled the matter


of urgency with reform in the NHS and the prison service at top


priority. The goal of a quality is still a long way off. Amongst the


recommendations by the Commons women and equality 's committee is that


people should no longer have to declare their gender on passports


and other official documents. Adam Wedge outwith the box to test the


public temperature. -- went out with.


Should you be required to put your gender on your passport or not? Are


you getting a passport? My wife is. Issue putting her gender on it? I


believe she has do. Is that good? If you asked me 20 years ago I would


have said it was a daft question but today I would question it. Yes? Do


you want to put it in yourself? I will put it in for you. Gender? I


think so, I don't have a problem with it myself. What about people


who are transgender? I don't know. Do you want to dig a little break?


No, not breaking his stride, I would not either. How do you feel when you


are made to tick the box? I don't like it, I don't think it's anything


to do with anything, the other thing I don't like is when they want to


know your age. You call up British Gas, what is your age? What does it


have to do with you? It's like Gas, what is your age? What does it


filling in a passport form but more pleasurable. Thank you. Thank you.


What box do you think Ziggy stardust would have used? He was an alien, a


Martian. You don't have to put anything if it is a person, it is a


person. What do you call that? What is it? On a passport, what do you


reckon? Should we had to stay our gender on our passports? Maybe


reckon? Should we had to stay our security reasons perhaps yes but


otherwise no. Let's see Russia or India or China or Thailand, when you


make applications they need to see what gender you are so if the


passport doesn't have it it will make the Visa application more


difficult. You sound very well travelled. I am a Visa agent! At the


airport they never check if I am actually a man. No, but you can see,


so if you have a passport actually a man. No, but you can see,


something different at least it actually a man. No, but you can see,


pulls it up and you can see OK, let's have you in and if it came to


a case of having to pull your trousers down to prove who you are


then you've got to do it. We have put people into one category or


another and it looks like the majority of people have said we


should still put our gender on our passports. I am joined by the


chairman of the equalities commission, Maria Miller and Kellie


Maloney is boxing promoter was known as Frank Maloney. How should this


work? As we have said in this report, it is the first report we


have produced and we're proud it is an transgender issues, we are trying


to make sure that gender does not get in the way of having official


documents therefore everyone to use. At the moment transgender people


feel it can be difficult to put themselves into male or female


pigeonholes and indeed we don't think it necessarily adds much to


the information the think it necessarily adds much to


collecting. That is only one of a number of more than 30


recommendations we have put forward to improve the lives of trans


people. Do you agree it's difficult to categorise yourself, I would have


thought it was clear if you are transgender going from man to woman


or a woman to man who you are? I agree with you, I was so pleased to


put my just bought -- passport and divers licence to female. Some


put my just bought -- passport and people don't recognise with any


gender so if they want to put something that is down to them but I


and a lot of my friends who have gone through the same journey as me


wanted to put the cross there. That's correct, transgender covers a


wide range of people. 44% of people in the country realise that gender


is quite a fluid design and that shows a real change in public


opinion. I don't understand it and I am part of the transgender


community. At my support group I keep learning different things every


day. I think a lot of the other groups are using the trans-umbrella


for their means. As far as I am concerned I am a woman and that is


it. And a female to male is a man. Would you support the idea of


removing someone's gender from official documentation, for example


like a passport but also drivers license or other official documents?


I think it is up to the individual. The point brought up is important,


if that someone has made the transition, it is important that


that is recognised legally that all public services support that and I


think some of public services support that and I


seen in our prisons recently show that that is still a real concern.


That is where you might require official bodies to actually state on


a form whether you are male or female otherwise you end up in the


wrong sort of ward in a hospital. I think that is much more important


than a passport or driver 's license. You would want to see it,


because you could end up in the wrong sex prison and we know,


tragically, some people have taken their own lives as a result of that.


So will that is not confuse the issue? As I said this is one of just


dirty recommendations. -- 30 recommendations. But it is quite


important. The current process is quite long. Quite long. Intrusive.


It involves being diagnosed with a medical condition which many trans


people don't think they have. We want to change the process, so the


point about passports is much broader, as a society we are quite


transfixed on peoples gender and maybe that is not healthy for men,


or anyone. What would you like to see happen in


terms of transfer OBR? There's a legal side about how you would


legally define yourself but what else would you do to do something to


tackle the nation? I would like to see the NHS, doctors, schoolteachers


aware of it. Some people have gone through troubles because the schools


don't understand it. A lot of my friends talking about it, all we


want to be is, why make special rules for us? We are happy in our


lifestyle and we are contented, just give us the same treatment and


respect you give to a normal woman and vice versa for a


respect you give to a normal woman should be protected under those


rules without having special rules. The NHS comes out of this quite


badly. When we took evidence on public services from organisations


and trans people, the NHS, there were considerable problems there


throughout, not only accessing services but actually, even when


specialist services and support it been prescribed by consultants, some


GPs were refusing to take it forward and one of the things I feel very


strongly about is that people who regulate the medical profession need


to take a strong stance on this and they should be zero tolerance to any


transfer OBR at what ever level in the NHS. That's the hardest part


when you transition. It's a physical thing, a mental thing, and if you


don't have help and support, that's why the suicide rate is higher than


in any other group. There have been more discussion, though, about


transgender. Do you think that there needs to be more debate? Is this a


priority issue in terms of equality? I do, yes, and I dealt with a number


of cases personally from people who have really struggled to negotiate


the health service and dealing with things like discrimination,


harassment, for the police to take it seriously, they're all kinds of


different issues that, as a society, we have not got grips with yet. A


lot of people just have not had any experience of this. Leanne is a


politician and we'll see people in his surgery. I actually do some


politician and we'll see people in in Swansea, there's a good


supportive group there. That's good to know. Education at a young age,


my generation need education. It is getting better, though. Young people


and teenagers and people in their 20s are much more understanding. I


talk at schools and it's fascinating the questions that the pupils ask


you. And they are not frightened to ask? That's the great thing about


it. Thanks very much. We welcome viewers from Scotland. You're now


with the Daily Politics. Just when you thought you had of elections for


a while it's time to think about them again, there will be one in


Wales for example in just 113 days. I bet you can hardly wait. The Welsh


Assembly and its 60 seats are up for grabs. We have been looking at the


political landscape in Wales ahead of the election.


Wales is getting ready for an election. Everyone knows you can't


have an election these days without a TV debate. I don't want Wales and


Britain to surrender our place in the world. This one was about the EU


referendum. And this guy is not even a candidate. You didn't do it, it


because you haven't got the power to do it because we've given that way


to Brussels. His party are expecting to do well. They say the very fact


the current First Minister of Wales prepare to debate shows Labour


public think so too. It's the same old same old in Wales. This sort of


idea of there being opposition politics has not happened. Plaid


Cymru, the Lib Dems and the Labour Party said in the same area at the


critical spectrum and so the fact Carwyn Jones is debating Nigel


Farage shows is a massive deficit in terms of opposition because we're


not yet in the assembly and yet he deems we are public the best


opponents to actually represent two sides of an argument. We have been


here before and we were here with Plaid Cymru in the 1970s and the


1990s. Ukip other current vehicle for people who are unhappy. What we


have to say is, what we have in Wales is a health service where


there's more money spent, education where standards are at a rapid rate,


the best investment figures for 30 years, unemployment lower than


London, we focus on improving people's lives. Labour has


controlled the Welsh Assembly since the first elections in 1999. It's


never had an overall majority. Ruling instead as a minority


Government or in a power-sharing arrangement. Polls suggest it could


be heading that way again and the talk here is a coalition. There are


60 seats up for grabs in the assembly. 40 of them are directly


elected by constituency, the same as Westminster MPs. 20 are elected on a


proportional representation bases from regional party lists. At the


moment Labour controls the Welsh Assembly with 36, the Conservatives,


14, Plaid Cymru, 11, and the Lib Dems, five. More people voted Welsh


Conservative at the last general election in May than ever voted for


Labour in assembly elections ever. Not just one election, but ever.


This is a unique opportunity for us to break through and actually had a


Welsh Conservative Government, otherwise it will be more of the


same because the Liberals and Plaid Cymru have cut deals with labour


time and time again to prop them up in a minority administration in


Cardiff Bay. Plaid Cymru think they will pick up more seats. The party


had plenty of coverage in the general election but failed to


capitalise and were beaten into fourth place by Ukip on vote share


and of course, it's a different battle ground this time around, at


least it should be. The problem with devolution in Wales is people don't


understand the difference between the national elections and the local


elections in terms of what the issues should be, so within Wales we


should be focusing on the devolved areas of Government. Those are


education, health and reckon the Government in those areas be what


the battles are fought. It always happens that the national issues and


the views of the National party has an impact. Labour and the Tories


have their fair share of UK wide issues, to defend, giving the


smaller parties an opportunity. But quite how they capitalise on that


could prove more critical to them internally than it does the seating


plan in Cardiff Bay. And the leader of Plaid Cymru is


with us today. Leanne Wood, is your New Year 's resolution for 2016 must


try harder? My resolution for 2016 is to put before the people in Wales


and alternative Government, and alternative programme, an


alternative team of people who can run the Government better than the


existing labour lot have done. Why was 2015 a big disappointment for


you? We didn't gain any extra seats. You did not get that many votes.


Even Ukip got more. Yes, that was a disappointment and I think the


National Assembly is different. We are consistently polled higher in


the National Assembly elections, so next May, I am hoping to sleep a


different result. You have 11 assembly members of the moment. 14


for the Tories, 34 Labour. Five Lib Dems. If you don't improve on the


11, will you consider that, for you, it is your time up in your role? I'm


not thinking of those lines at all for that no, I have a clear


political project, around building a nation and we have got, in Wales, so


many aspects of our national character, which have not yet been


built. We are lacking in basic institutions can we have no banking


and finance system for example. Criminal Justice is not evolved.


and finance system for example. There was a lot to do in terms of


building up a country and my party is in an important position to do


that. What would you regard as a decent result on top of the 11 you


already have? I very much want Plaid Cymru to be leading the Government


after next May. We have had 17 years of a Labour Government in one guise


or another, there's been some coalitions within that, but for one


party to lead a Government for that length of time, I don't know of any


other place in the world who has that. How many assembly members


would you need? It's very difficult to predict figures. Forgive me, I'm


not asking for a prediction but an aspiration. What would you hope to


achieve? It's only five months away. I would hope to achieve a majority,


obviously. It's unlikely. The system we have got makes it difficult for


one party to form a majority. You are third in the polls at the


moment, a couple of points out of Ukip. Yes, we have some work to do


before May, I accept that. You don't seem, your party, your cause,


doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Well, you might say that. I just


did, I think. You did. Isn't it? There's a growing body in Wales who


recognise the Government we have got is not as good as it gets and


recognise that they have been taken for granted by that same party that


has run the Government for that length of time and it is now time


for a change and it only Plaid Cymru who's in position to really offer


the change in Wales needs. Wales used to attract huge amount of


inward investment, 15% of all investment coming into the UK. And


it has really tailed off since devolution. Why? There may be a


number of different reasons for that. One of which is that there has


been, certainly in recent years, nobody promoting Wales outside the


country and interestingly, yesterday, my party 's economic


spokesperson announced that we want Wales to have a developed agency for


the 21st-century, running back a brand which was ditched in the past


in order to promote Wales abroad and then, of course, we would hope that


such a body would increase Wales' inward investment, but I would not


want to make a point that previous strategies which solely focused on


inward investment have not worked for us in Wales. We need to do a lot


more to encourage and support indigenous businesses and that's why


we have put together a package of support for small and medium-size


enterprises which formed the backbone of the economy. Inward


investment has got worse since devolution. There may be a


connection or not. Statistically it's got a lot worse. Have the NHS


got worse since devolution? The NHS it's got a lot worse. Have the NHS


has got worse under Labour's stewardship in Wales. No doubt about


that. If you compare the outcome between Wales and other parts of the


UK, we are not good in many areas and if you look at things like the


number of doctors we have per head of the population, Wales has fewer


doctors per head of the population than any other part of UK and, in


fact, there's only three other countries in the EU that are in a


better position than we are. There has been a lack of workforce... A


worse position? Yes, so workforce planning is a key issue that the


worse position? Yes, so workforce Government has failed to get


worse position? Yes, so workforce grips with over many years now.


Thank you. We will talk to a lot more about these issues in the May


election. Let's continue on elections. Why did Labour lose last


year 's general election? The former Labour Cabinet minister Margaret


Beckett has written a report about the failure but the reporter has yet


to be released amidst accusations that the leadership are sitting on


what might be uncomfortable reading for Jeremy Corbyn and his


colleagues. Former leadership contender Chuka Umunna has added his


voice to those calling for the report to be released, talking to


Eleanor Garnier. I think it's absolutely essential to this report


is published. I was interviewed for it along with many different people


who contributed to the general election effort and I think if


anybody is serious about as kicking the Tories out in 2020, and before


that delivering a Labour victory across the country, not just in


London, in 2016, we need to learn the lessons and ensure that we get


into office. So we can deliver on Labour values. What do you think the


report is going to say? I would be most surprised if there isn't some


comment about our perceived economic competence in the eyes of the voter,


but, beyond that, I think too often people in the lead up to the general


election went always too sure what the Labour Party stood for and what


our policies where. Chuka Umunna there. The polling expert John


Curtis had a phone report out today about why the pollsters got it so


wrong in the run-up to the general election and he joins us now from


Glasgow. Ruth Lea, on Chuka Umunna, and what you are saying, presumably


you would like to see what it Margaret Beckett's report. Of


course, anyone is interested in politics and polls will be delighted


the Labour Party would publish support, particularly to see the


opinion polls the Labour Party was conducting before the election. It


has been claimed that those opinion polls suggested Labour's position


was much weaker than the polls published, so those of us were


interested in trying to find out why the polls got it wrong. It's


something of a disappointment that information has not been put into


the public domain. Yawn that in truth, I suspect we would largely


agree that the evidence so far in the public domain is economic


competence and a lack of abroad story of what Labour stood for was


central to their problems. It's not clear when that report will be


published by understand it will be published in due course in the next


week or so but let's turn to your report. You don't have that


information yet from the Labour Party 's internal investigation.


What were your conclusions when you looked at by the pollsters got it


wrong in the general election? This report is based on a survey which


was very simple. We went out during the course of four months on the


back end of last year and asked people how they voted in the


election and the crucial thing we found out is that we were actually


able to replicate the results. We have a 6-point lead in the survey


for that you may say so what? The so what is that much of the commentary


about why the opinion polls got it wrong essentially said, people are


not being honest with the pollsters and not to themselves. Tories are


reluctant to declare their preference for Labour voters are not


willing to admit they did not make it to the polls. If that were true,


any other survey conducted, however it was done, should, come up the


same problem with lover don't find enough Conservative voters but


British social attitudes does not have this problem as indeed is also


true of the British election study full for the crucial thing about


both these surveys if they are done very, very differently from the


opinion polls. They are done as pure random poverty samples and in


particular, they spent a lot of effort trying to get hold of the


people that they want to interview were as opinion polls only have two


or three days. One of the crucial things we find in today's report is


that those people who voted Labour are easier to find, easy to contact,


than Conservative voters. Look at those who responded to


than Conservative voters. Look at social attitudes on the first


interview, we have a Labour lead forth it's only when we are


persistent but the Conservative voters are uncovered so that it is


one indication. The problem with the polls if they were not simply bring


in Conservative voters. It would be how the polls are done and it's


pretty crucial in understanding them.


So not so much shy Tories but unavailable and difficult to find,


how do you fix that? That is difficult because no opinion poll


can afford to spend four months finding out how people will vote.


One idea is to try to find out what, if any, are the demographic


characteristics which will help to identify these easily available


labour voters. Secondly, I think that perhaps it would be better if


instead of us having an opinion poll every single day of the election


campaign we had fewer and that more effort was taken to try to get hold


of people and that at least might end up with fewer polls but they


would be more accurate. Thank you. Sad news whilst we have been on air,


it has been reported that Alan Rickman, star of stage and screen


has died at the age of only 69 of cancer. The same as David Bowie


earlier this week. A sad day indeed. Nicky Morgan, the Education


Secretary will announce plans to extend a scheme to recruit the best


graduates into children's social care across England. The programme


was launched in 2013 in response to serious concerns over quality of


workers in the sector. Here a clip from a promotional video. This is to


thank you. Being yourself. Poor keeping it real. I did not feel like


I was one of your caseloads. Thank you for what you have done for me


over the years. You have been there for everything. It's a brilliant


buzz to see people do well and think for themselves and feel you have


made a difference. That is really satisfying. It's definitely been a


pleasure to have known you and have had you in my life. That is


wonderful isn't it? That makes it all worthwhile.


Joining us are the chief executive of front line in Dunstable and a


professor of social work at Kingston University who is in Salford. How


does front line deferred? We go to careers fairs and universities and


try to attract people, we have been able to put that into the times top


100 careers list for the first time ever. It's also an intensive


programme, two years and you qualify at the end of the first 12 months


and the idea we are trying to recruit people to come into social


work and work directly with children and families but also people who


have decent sense of social purpose and want to address social


disadvantage and social work has the power to tackle that. Do you support


this idea? My first concern is that this is a privilege group of


students coming into social work who are much better funded. They are


sent out to families after only a few weeks of basic training. I am


concerned about the fast track nature of the programme and how


rushed it is. I am also concerned nature of the programme and how


that the students are being promised they can move into management and


leadership roles very quickly, promotion within the civil service


and move away from the front line quickly before they have much


experience. Thirdly I am concerned that this does not address the big


issue which is we have seen a 70% increase in child protection


issue which is we have seen a 70% load in the last six years when the


government has reduced funding to local government by 40%. It doesn't


tackle the root cause of the problem, recruiting social workers


in the first place? It makes a big condition towards it. There are


around 4000 social work posts vacant in England right now and recruiting


new talent to join the ranks of existing social workers is an


important issue to address. Is it not to tier system? -- two. Not that


all, the people who qualify quickly become colleagues who have qualified


with the same license to practice. And they have qualified after having


had more time in practice with families before they get given a


licence than on many other routes. So it's not true to say they are not


fully prepared for the realities of child protection work. Is it not the


case we desperately need more social workers, people who want to take


this up and if there is a body or a scheme who are going to promote the


provision of social work more positively then that's a good thing?


It's a good thing to promote social work, it's an important profession


doing important work. But there are three and a half thousand social


work students qualifying each year and front line I think will be


qualifying very quickly about 200 students per year. Whilst a lot of


money is going into this programme for this privileged group of


students, most are having to fund themselves or survive on a bursary


of around 300 ?300,000 a year. There is an inequality and we need social


workers to build up wisdom, experience and stay at front


workers to build up wisdom, practice which is not being promised


workers to build up wisdom, for these students, they can move


into Manor ship and -- management and leadership quickly. This


argument around leadership is interesting, our position is that


social work practice is a leadership exercise, people need to build great


relationships very quickly with families, the police, health


visitors, the court. They need to set out a vision for a family and


help a family change in difficult circumstances. That is what we mean


by leadership so yes, some of the people on the programme may


eventually go and become team managers and future directors in the


social services, which would be no bad thing, but when we talk about


developing leadership and social work we mean developing people who


can be great social workers. Leanne Wood Samu used to be a social


worker. I qualified as a social worker to work as a probation


officer. How would you attract people to try the profession? It's


more about retaining the staff already in the profession because


it's a very difficult job. There are high levels of and load and stress


and people often burnt out quickly. I would argue that you could put in


things like more supervision and support for existing social workers


and cut the workloads and that would have a marked difference. So you


agree that this is money resources that is being used in perhaps the


wrong way? If people are being fast tracked into management it won't


deal with the problem social services departments face which is a


lack of social workers on the ground. That's what we need. We need


extra people in the service. This whole situation has not been helped


by the cuts agenda to social services departments. If those


departments were properly invested in and the existing social workers


had the correct amount of support under reasonable workload then there


would not be these issues staff retention. On the issue of staff


retention how will you counter that because in the end they will have


similar bombs to existing trainees in social work? Yes, and the reality


is that it differs across the system in England. Some local authorities


keep hold of social workers very well, develop them and they can


remain in practice and get promoted. The early indications are very


promising, 90% of the people who join the programme have gone into


practice as a qualified social worker as opposed to under 60% for


other routes so that is encouraging. I'm sorry, we're running out of time


so I had to stop you, thank you both very much. Cast your mind back to


2003, the Iraq war. The playing cards, that the US military issue to


help troops identify the most wanted members of the Saddam Hussein


government. Saddam Hussein himself was famously the ace of spades with


his son is the ace of clubs and hearts. The cards were called the


personality identification playing cards. And enterprising Eurosceptic


has now produced a pack of cards to help Eurosceptics identify the


enemy, dangerous Europhiles. The king of hearts is young college of


her -- Jean-Claude Juncker. These cards are already being used,


Dan Hannan tweeted a picture of himself with them. The creator of


the cards is in our Liverpool studio, how long did it take to


research all these and the courts? Strangely enough the courts which


are all freely available on the Internet probably took me about a


week -- the courts. It was then a question of whittling them down to


the final selection. I wish you would come and do some research


the final selection. I wish you me, that is very quick! Is it right


to complain Iraq with what you call the European regime -- to compare? I


think there is no comparison at all, the regime of Saddam Hussein was a


very different proposition. It's just for the satire. I can see a bit


of fun but the American king of spades was chemical Ali who murders


thousands of Kurdish rebellions, yours is a Belgian whose only the


indiscretion is eating too many waffles. Yes but I am not making a


comparison between Saddam Hussein and any of the Eurocrats. That may


be so, so why did you put the hammer and sickle on the back of every


card? It's just an interesting moniker, it's commonly widely used


amongst the Eurosceptic community. It is a freely available design.


It's a bit of a hackneyed design, a lot of people use it but it's just


seemed the most appropriate. Thank you for joining us, very


interesting. Take a card, any card, not that one. Thanks to our guest, I


will be back this evening with Michael Portillo, Nicola Roberts,


join us at 1145 BBC One and back here on BBC Two at noon with daily


politics. Goodbye. Let your New Year start with a bang


and visit an explosive new China.


Download Subtitles