26/01/2016 Daily Politics


26/01/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by former Labour leadership contender Liz Kendall to discuss the EU refugee crisis in Europe, Google's tax deal and calls for the use of online voting.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:44.

Europe reintroduces border controls as the winter weather fails to stem

:00:45.:00:48.

But could refugees who gain citizenship soon

:00:49.:00:50.

A ?130 million tax bill for Google, but has the internet giant been

:00:51.:00:56.

asked to pay a derisory amount on the billions it makes in the UK?

:00:57.:01:02.

EU leaders say they are bending over backwards to keep

:01:03.:01:04.

Britain in the union, so how would they react if Britain

:01:05.:01:07.

We will ask the also-ran of Labour's leadership contest.

:01:08.:01:18.

But the truth is, you don't know me from Adam, or should I Saed say Eve?

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today is the former Labour

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leadership contender, and very good loser,

:01:35.:01:36.

ever since Jeremy Corbyn got the better

:01:37.:01:46.

of Liz and her colleagues in last summer's leadership contest,

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the Labour leader and his allies have

:01:49.:01:50.

been accused of conspiring to take over party institutions and mould

:01:51.:01:53.

Well, this morning, one of the party's

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decision-making bodies, the NEC, or National Executive Committee,

:01:57.:01:57.

is reported to be voting on changes to

:01:58.:01:59.

Our expert of arcane internal Labour Party procedures is Ross

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I hope you like that title, Ross! What are they trying to do? I will

:02:04.:02:14.

take it over good loser! I woke up this morning pretty stoked up the

:02:15.:02:17.

prospect of the National executive committee discussing its own terms

:02:18.:02:22.

of reference, so normally this is an annual affair that doesn't trouble

:02:23.:02:25.

is particularly, but this year it is a complete battle ground, a proxy

:02:26.:02:31.

battle for control of the party. There are a number of papers flying

:02:32.:02:35.

around, one written by John Landsman, close to Jeremy Corbyn,

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and as I understand it, the ones most likely to come up for

:02:41.:02:44.

discussion are ones presented by the trade unions and another by the

:02:45.:02:47.

general secretary. The suspicion amongst many was that there could be

:02:48.:02:55.

an attempt to give the NEC, the bit of the Labour machine when Jeremy

:02:56.:02:58.

Corbyn is closest to control, a say on staff appointments. What is very

:02:59.:03:07.

much up for discussion is how the policy-making machinery works, and

:03:08.:03:11.

that matters, because if the NEC can get control to a greater extent of

:03:12.:03:17.

the decisions that labour makes about its policy in between party

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conferences, that could give Jeremy Corbyn a hugely useful lever to try

:03:22.:03:25.

and exert a bit more control over a party large swathes of which don't

:03:26.:03:30.

seem to make much of him. And that would give the NEC more power over

:03:31.:03:35.

for example the policy-making powers of MPs. How likely is it to happen?

:03:36.:03:40.

There will be a big fight about it today, but there will be a fight

:03:41.:03:44.

about other things, I am told. There is not universal happiness over the

:03:45.:03:50.

fact that Jeremy Corbyn's party aid has been removed from the National

:03:51.:03:54.

executive committee, and forget all the technicalities and the jargon

:03:55.:03:57.

and the endless arguments, what really matters here is a balance of

:03:58.:04:01.

Power fight, and what fundamentally will matter is who controls Labour's

:04:02.:04:08.

NEC, because those who control this key committee get a very good say in

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what gets debated at conference, would ultimately, however they

:04:14.:04:16.

fiddle with terms of reference, has a crucial say in the Labour Party's

:04:17.:04:21.

Wallasey, sit in between all the arcane intricacies, there is a real

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fight over what Labour believes, but it is not a fight that will resolve

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the fundamental problems of what happens for example on Trident. If

:04:29.:04:35.

Jeremy Corbyn and a handful of colleagues think one thing and the

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majority of the party thinks something else. Expect a lot of

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sound and fury, but maybe not the clearest of conclusions today. Line

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Ross Hawkins, thank you very much. Liz, do you approve of these

:04:46.:04:56.

changes? What is important is that the women make decisions -- the way

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we make decisions is as open as possible. I think we have had a

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great improvement, we have representatives from different

:05:08.:05:10.

regions of the country, and I would like to see the MPF go further and

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involve members of the public, because we don't just need to be

:05:14.:05:16.

talking to ourselves, we need to talk to the public to get the right

:05:17.:05:20.

policies for the future. So all I care about is that policy-making is

:05:21.:05:25.

as wide and open as possible and not too centralised.

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as wide and open as possible and not wrong with Jeremy Corbyn wanting to

:05:30.:05:31.

mould party institutions like wrong with Jeremy Corbyn wanting to

:05:32.:05:34.

NEC in his own image so that they wrong with Jeremy Corbyn wanting to

:05:35.:05:39.

mind he won that leadership contest so overwhelmingly? We have had the

:05:40.:05:45.

reshuffle recently, and I have been really clear, it is absolutely his

:05:46.:05:50.

mandate to appoint who he wants, but when we are making policy for the

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mandate to appoint who he wants, but future, during the leadership

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campaign, Jeremy Sloane she future, during the leadership

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to involve members more, and we need to make sure that there are voices

:06:00.:06:02.

from across the party and the country. And you don't think at the

:06:03.:06:06.

moment that is the case? Teasing his wing of the party is trying to take

:06:07.:06:11.

over the NEC? I haven't really been involved in what is happening on the

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NEC, but I don't think all see making should be centralised. Let's

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turn our face to the public, because that is who we have to convince.

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Eight young member of the NEC, Becks Bailey, says none of the proposed

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changes should happen. Anybody who knows Becks Bailey knows

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changes should happen. Anybody who woman with a mind of her own, and

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she has been a representative woman with a mind of her own, and

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to see more young voices, regional voices,

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to see more young voices, regional shouldn't be centralised, make it

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wide and opened and inclusive, because we need the ideas and the

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commitment of members because we need the ideas and the

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country if we are going to win again.

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country if we are going to win will be a vote on Trident before the

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Easter recess. That would be before Labour has completed its defence

:07:03.:07:03.

review. If that happens, which is review. If that happens, which is

:07:04.:07:10.

whipped? I position on this. It is a really

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important issue position on this. It is a really

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national-security. And I, like many Labour MPs

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national-security. And I, like many to see a world that is free of

:07:25.:07:27.

nuclear weapons, and I believe that we achieve that through

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multilateralism. I do believe that unilaterally getting rid of our

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nuclear weapons... But should the vote be whipped in favour of

:07:36.:07:39.

renewing Trident or against? Our current party policy is to renew

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Trident and the deterrent, and I think it is important that our party

:07:44.:07:44.

does think it is important that our party

:07:45.:07:49.

national-security. So at that point where they haven't completed their

:07:50.:07:51.

defence review, should it be whipped by Jeremy Corbyn to the current

:07:52.:07:57.

policy or against? I think it would always be

:07:58.:07:59.

policy or against? I think it would issues as national security that we

:08:00.:08:00.

have one clear position as The question for today

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is all about Liz's former colleague, the one-time Shadow

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Chancellor Ed Balls. He lost his seat at

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last year's general election and this week he gave a TV

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interview in which he said there is one job he

:08:12.:08:14.

definitely does not want. At the end of the show

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Liz will give us Now, the internet giant Google

:08:17.:08:27.

is to pay ?130 million in back taxes here in the UK over

:08:28.:08:37.

the next ten years. It had been hailed as a "major

:08:38.:08:39.

success" for George Osborne But in the Commons yesterday,

:08:40.:08:42.

with the Chancellor absent from the despatch box,

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many MPs were less than impressed I am proud of the work this

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Government has done to make our tax system internationally competitive,

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but also to make sure that those Mr Speaker, the statement made

:09:01.:09:02.

by Google at the end of last week is solid evidence that companies

:09:03.:09:06.

are changing their models and reviewing their structures

:09:07.:09:08.

because we have strengthened The Chancellor has managed to create

:09:09.:09:10.

an unlikely alliance between myself, the Sun newspaper, the Mayor

:09:11.:09:20.

of London and, according to reports, All of us think that this deal

:09:21.:09:24.

is not the, in quotes, "major success" the Chancellor

:09:25.:09:32.

claimed at the weekend. Does the Minister agree that

:09:33.:09:35.

Google may be the symptom, but is probably not the cause,

:09:36.:09:39.

of these problems? And that those lie with the immense

:09:40.:09:43.

complexity of the tax system, rendered more problematic

:09:44.:09:45.

by the globalisation of tax liability, and that therefore

:09:46.:09:47.

fundamental reform of the corporate tax base probably now

:09:48.:09:51.

needs to be considered? Last year, in the Budget before

:09:52.:09:56.

the general election, the Chancellor said,

:09:57.:09:58.

"We will not tolerate, let the message go out,

:09:59.:10:00.

there will be an end to this Given there was ?24 billion of UK

:10:01.:10:03.

revenues over this period, but that experts have said Google

:10:04.:10:13.

should have paid tax of almost ?2 billion, does 130 million really

:10:14.:10:16.

meet the test of no tolerance? Will the Minister agree with me that

:10:17.:10:19.

in the mad world of corporation tax on international companies

:10:20.:10:22.

that the sum of money is at once derisory, insubstantial, unlawful,

:10:23.:10:25.

and completely unacceptable to the public, and will he therefore

:10:26.:10:32.

agree with me that it is time for a complete overhaul

:10:33.:10:35.

of the corporate tax system? I'm joined now by John Culliane from

:10:36.:10:40.

the Chartered Institute of taxation. Google have agreed to pay this

:10:41.:10:51.

amount, ?130 million, in backdated tax. Is that the best deal that

:10:52.:10:57.

could have been reached? I do think anybody from the outside could

:10:58.:11:01.

possibly say it is the best possible deal, but I do think some of the

:11:02.:11:03.

comment is wrong and actually quite dangerous. I think the last thing we

:11:04.:11:08.

need at the moment is a complete overhaul of corporate tax, and that

:11:09.:11:13.

is because everybody agrees if we're to make the multinationals pay their

:11:14.:11:16.

fair share, there has got to be a global consensus as to how you about

:11:17.:11:20.

things. To change our tax system away from a global consensus

:11:21.:11:24.

unilaterally, we do the reverse of any good, it would open up more

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differences that the multinationals could exploit. Do you agree? I think

:11:31.:11:36.

people who work hard pay their full taxes. They want to see a full tax

:11:37.:11:39.

system and they don't believe that is what we have got at the moment.

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It is all to no pagan secret. We don't know what Google earns, what

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they own what profits they make, although Margaret Hodge, as you know

:11:50.:11:52.

used to be chair of the Public Accounts Committee said they earned

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?6.4 billion last year in advertising and sales in the UK, and

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to end up paying what is the equivalent of ?13 million just seems

:12:03.:12:08.

wrong. I gather the French government are pursuing them for ?1

:12:09.:12:11.

billion of tax, so why can't we do that here? The one thing we feel

:12:12.:12:16.

confident about is their global profits because they have been gone

:12:17.:12:18.

into in great detail by the securities exchange commission. The

:12:19.:12:22.

exchange they are regulated on in the States. And in the last full

:12:23.:12:29.

year, 2014, that is reported, they paid about 20% tax globally. I'm

:12:30.:12:33.

sure the vast majority of that was paid in the states. If you had a

:12:34.:12:39.

whiskey producer in the UK, at 20% or whatever of its sales were in

:12:40.:12:43.

Japan or 30% in the states, it could pay nothing in the states under

:12:44.:12:47.

international rules, because most of the value is produced in the UK. So

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we have to develop international rules, we have to put pressure on

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those countries, Ireland, Luxembourg and so on, who open up that

:12:59.:13:05.

multinationals can exploit, but that we have to build on the rules, and

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not throw out the baby with the bath water. But you do accept that they

:13:09.:13:14.

are making the most, quite legitimately of legal tax loopholes,

:13:15.:13:17.

and where people will be surprised is that even if the UK tax

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authorities cannot tell how much they made in terms of profits here,

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they can look at sales and turnover, and they can look at those figures

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and look at them and think, they just don't have any comparison. I

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think to move taxes to sales and turnover, you have value added tax

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and it is the customer who ends up paying those taxes by and large.

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They pay 20% of their profits in tax globally, which is pretty much the

:13:46.:13:50.

rate we would apply if we had access to the entire global profits, so a

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lot of the planning, you might ask how they get from a US headline rate

:13:57.:14:00.

of around 30% down to 20%, and that is because the US tax system is even

:14:01.:14:07.

more context was a blue than ours. And isn't that the point, that it is

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complicated, and it is not the same as a multinational company. People

:14:14.:14:18.

will be no doubt outraged by the small amount of tax that they are

:14:19.:14:23.

paying. Rightly so. They also have these companies, armies of lawyers

:14:24.:14:27.

and armies of people at their disposal to make the most of legal

:14:28.:14:32.

tax avoidance schemes, so would it really be worth HMRC doing things

:14:33.:14:36.

like court cases, trying to get more tax out of people. The basic issue

:14:37.:14:43.

is we need more openness and transparency if we are going to get

:14:44.:14:46.

anywhere near this fairer tax system, and it can't be beyond the

:14:47.:14:51.

wit of man. We can put a man, if not a woman, on the moon, we can find

:14:52.:14:56.

cures for cancer, but we can't make Google pay tax? That does seem to be

:14:57.:15:02.

the problem. Yesterday minute is one unable to say what tax rate Google

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were paying. As soon as you start aggregating down company by company,

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it does become very difficult, and UK revenue have gone and got

:15:12.:15:17.

something, if the French are asking for more, and I don't believe they

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have settled yet,... Our government isn't asking for more. They should

:15:23.:15:27.

collaborate, and international collaboration between tax

:15:28.:15:30.

authorities is the way to get this situation under control.

:15:31.:15:36.

Do you think Labour should have done more? At the way the economy has

:15:37.:15:44.

changed even since we were in government, it is moving very fast,

:15:45.:15:47.

and the whole issue of the global economy and how we can make it work

:15:48.:15:52.

in terms of tax and in different parts of the country, is a really

:15:53.:15:54.

big issue for Labour in the future. But what if the war gaming

:15:55.:15:58.

was about re-negotiating the UK's Yesterday grandees of British

:15:59.:16:03.

and European politics spent the day And our Ellie had a thrilling

:16:04.:16:08.

time watching it all. They call it War Games. Simulation

:16:09.:16:32.

of how Britain's EU discussions might go. I think it will be a good

:16:33.:16:38.

discussion for other countries. Their one never be a United States

:16:39.:16:43.

of Europe. It is confusing, illegal and not effective. This is David

:16:44.:16:50.

Cameron, OK it is the former Foreign Secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind, but

:16:51.:16:53.

he is playing the part of the British PM trying to get a deal in

:16:54.:16:57.

Europe. It was very interesting in that sense I can remember when I was

:16:58.:17:01.

Foreign Secretary being involved in discussions around the table and it

:17:02.:17:06.

was not that different. The key sticking point is not the same as

:17:07.:17:10.

saying no surrender. It means I have priorities and I will not budge on

:17:11.:17:14.

my priorities, but if there are different ways of reaching the

:17:15.:17:20.

solution, I am open to alternatives. The cabinet proposals that he wants

:17:21.:17:25.

to have an independent decision, how he can support his own population.

:17:26.:17:30.

This is common sense amongst European heads of state and

:17:31.:17:35.

government. On the other hand, what is not a consensus is to

:17:36.:17:38.

discriminate people who work within the EU. There are some red lines and

:17:39.:17:46.

we will have to find possibly alternative action to come to what

:17:47.:17:49.

the Europeans are seeking and the British are wanting. The delegates

:17:50.:17:57.

are back around the table and they are talking about what would happen

:17:58.:18:02.

if Britain voted to leave the EU. They are talking about Brexit as if

:18:03.:18:08.

it was a divorce. I appreciate many people in this room will be

:18:09.:18:13.

disappointed, but we all, including ministers of the British Government,

:18:14.:18:19.

have to respect the decision. After the divorce there will be a lot of

:18:20.:18:23.

irrationality and the consequences will be very negative because of

:18:24.:18:32.

this irrational attitude and reactions, years and years of

:18:33.:18:37.

negotiating legal consequences. It will be a big problem for

:18:38.:18:42.

competitiveness for both the UK and Europe because we will waste a lot

:18:43.:18:47.

of time and money just for the legacy of the Brexit. As far as

:18:48.:18:53.

Ireland is concerned I want to make it clear this is an absolutely

:18:54.:18:56.

devastating decision Britain has taken. We regard it as an unfriendly

:18:57.:19:03.

act. Peace in Ireland would be set back considerably if as a result of

:19:04.:19:08.

Britain leading the European Union we had to reintroduce border posts

:19:09.:19:12.

along the border in Ireland to collect tariffs on EU exports to the

:19:13.:19:18.

UK and vice versa, and also if we had to possibly even prevent EU

:19:19.:19:23.

immigrants entering Britain. We would have to have passed for

:19:24.:19:27.

controlled on the border. The effect that would have on the life of

:19:28.:19:33.

people in the northern half of Ireland and the atmosphere of peace

:19:34.:19:36.

we have created through years and years of hard work would be very bad

:19:37.:19:43.

indeed. It was a day of gaming. The real-life negotiations will take

:19:44.:19:47.

much longer and if Britain does vote out, the talking and the shouting

:19:48.:19:53.

could go on for years. And Conservative peer Norman Lamont

:19:54.:19:57.

who was at that event joins us now. What was it like? It was a simulated

:19:58.:20:05.

negotiation and what I thought was interesting was it highlighted some

:20:06.:20:09.

of the trade office. My session was done on the assumption there had

:20:10.:20:14.

been a vote to leave. What then was going to happen in the negotiations?

:20:15.:20:20.

Of course Britain wants access for manufactured goods. It was access

:20:21.:20:25.

for financial services. The EU was in a position to refuse the latter,

:20:26.:20:30.

but not the former, so that is a difficult situation. Then you have

:20:31.:20:33.

agriculture where we import a lot from them with a big deficit, so it

:20:34.:20:37.

is a question of putting the deficit against the surplus and seeing if

:20:38.:20:43.

one could come out with a solution. A lot of them were making speeches

:20:44.:20:47.

knowing that this was before in the real world a vote, so with they were

:20:48.:20:56.

trying to chill the blood. Do you think for effect, but also to be

:20:57.:21:00.

realistic about what might happen in the event of Britain voting to come

:21:01.:21:06.

out in terms of negotiations with former EU partners? Observers

:21:07.:21:09.

described the negotiations in the morning as a debate and the

:21:10.:21:13.

discussions after Britain voted for exit as a lynch mob. Is that fair? I

:21:14.:21:19.

did not feel like I was lynched. But a lot of it was done for effect. I

:21:20.:21:24.

had not made up my mind how I am going to vote. Which way? I am not

:21:25.:21:33.

saying. I can see pluses and minuses. I was interested to do this

:21:34.:21:38.

negotiation in order to highlight it. I do not think there would be a

:21:39.:21:43.

big disaster to leave, I do not think it will be the end of the

:21:44.:21:48.

world. I do believe financial services, a key issue, I think it is

:21:49.:21:55.

solvable. What were the terms you proposed in those negotiations in

:21:56.:21:59.

terms of Britain having left, what were the terms you put forward? I

:22:00.:22:06.

put forward a comprehensive free trade agreement, similar to that

:22:07.:22:11.

that Britain has with Canada which would include manufacturers,

:22:12.:22:14.

services and agriculture. I also offered to pay something into the EU

:22:15.:22:21.

budget. Is that very different from what is currently the situation?

:22:22.:22:25.

Some might argue that if you are wanting to pull out, you should pull

:22:26.:22:28.

out and make a much bigger break and that negotiations with Canada took

:22:29.:22:34.

years. Given that much of our regulations are already harmonised

:22:35.:22:36.

with the EU, and will remain so, it is much easier for Britain to

:22:37.:22:52.

be accommodated in a free-trade agreement than it is with Canada.

:22:53.:22:54.

But we would not be subject to the lawmaking of the EU in future unless

:22:55.:22:57.

we wanted to do so. Are you tempted by his terms of trade? No, I am not.

:22:58.:23:08.

So many people think we can have access to the single market without

:23:09.:23:11.

paying a price and we can pick and choose which regulations we want

:23:12.:23:16.

without any consequences. One week it is Turkey, one week we can be

:23:17.:23:20.

like Canada, the next week like Norway, and there will be

:23:21.:23:24.

consequences if we leave and I do not think the British people are

:23:25.:23:29.

stupid. They know there is no such thing as a free lunch and I do not

:23:30.:23:33.

want to be a rule maker now and go to that to be ruled taken. I to have

:23:34.:23:39.

our say over the European Union as well as the benefits.

:23:40.:23:46.

You were prepared to pay something. How much with the UK pay under your

:23:47.:23:54.

terms? Given we would be proud of common agricultural policy, we could

:23:55.:23:58.

have a large reduction in our budget contribution. But there might be

:23:59.:24:02.

areas where we wish to incorporate where it might be to our advantage,

:24:03.:24:08.

like science and universities. You admit it would not be free? It would

:24:09.:24:15.

be a tiny amount compared to the 20 billion now. But let me say this, in

:24:16.:24:21.

response to Liz, trade is not determined by politics. What you

:24:22.:24:25.

need to trade is a willing buyer and a willing seller. But the terms

:24:26.:24:35.

could take a long time? Indeed. How America trades with Europe, how

:24:36.:24:40.

Australia trades with Europe... But the world of the WTO ruled on car

:24:41.:24:45.

imports and manufacturing imply 10% tariffs which would have a terrible

:24:46.:24:50.

effect. There is no evidence it would be 10%. There is no way they

:24:51.:24:58.

would impose 10% tariffs on cars. After wrenching as a way... Britain

:24:59.:25:03.

is the biggest customer for German cars. There is no clear evidence

:25:04.:25:10.

they would be tariffs at that sort of rate, but there is a point about

:25:11.:25:15.

how much goodwill they would be. Liz's point and the point raised in

:25:16.:25:19.

the war-gaming, they would be furious. These EU partners who had

:25:20.:25:23.

done their utmost to keep Britain in, why would they want to do any

:25:24.:25:30.

deal at the beginning? Frankly, that is a terrible argument. Is it? The

:25:31.:25:36.

idea we should be blackmailed to be staying into it because people would

:25:37.:25:42.

be angry. No argument about the length to get agreement? It would

:25:43.:25:48.

take two years. Everything remains the same, the world does not

:25:49.:25:55.

collapse. This is an organisation that was founded to promote peace,

:25:56.:26:00.

friendship, good neighbourliness. We are a big neighbour of the EU, it

:26:01.:26:05.

does not do for them to say we are going to be angry with you because

:26:06.:26:09.

you have democratically chosen to lead our club. That is pretty poor.

:26:10.:26:15.

Based on your experience, do you think Britain could get better terms

:26:16.:26:19.

if we voted to come out, and the associated, and had a second

:26:20.:26:26.

referendum? That is a possibility. I believe that were Brexit to happen,

:26:27.:26:30.

and it is possible the EU would be so shocked they would make an even

:26:31.:26:35.

better offer. That would be a prize worth chasing. I want to ask whether

:26:36.:26:41.

you think in the current circumstances in the global economy

:26:42.:26:45.

where there are risks with what is happening in China and with oil,

:26:46.:26:48.

whether you think it is worth Britain to go through all of this

:26:49.:26:53.

when our economy needs the ability in the future? It is important to

:26:54.:26:59.

have a vote on it and it is important it is changed since we

:27:00.:27:05.

joined originally. I made my maiden speech on joining the EU. It was not

:27:06.:27:11.

called the EU. It has changed dramatically. The whole idea that

:27:12.:27:15.

trade would stop with the EU is absurd. It depends on who buys and

:27:16.:27:21.

took the selling. The government is not doing any contingency planning

:27:22.:27:25.

for a British vote to leave the EU. Should there be? We need to know the

:27:26.:27:32.

risks on exports for our financial services, for workers' right and

:27:33.:27:36.

what companies would do if we left Europe in terms of those rights.

:27:37.:27:42.

People have the right to know what the alternative is and it is

:27:43.:27:46.

important that happens. The government has tabled a motion in

:27:47.:27:50.

the Commons setting out some of the rules for the EU referendum because

:27:51.:27:53.

our Parliamentary process has to be gone through. That will fuel

:27:54.:27:58.

speculation that David Cameron is preparing for a referendum in June.

:27:59.:28:02.

Does that indicate that is happening? I think they would like

:28:03.:28:06.

to have it in June and it is possible. They may have to cut a few

:28:07.:28:12.

corners with the process. It will be a tight squeeze, I think July is

:28:13.:28:17.

more likely. But they want to avoid being pushed into next year when

:28:18.:28:23.

there are French and German elections which would complicate the

:28:24.:28:23.

whole thing. Now, immigration is set to play

:28:24.:28:26.

a central role in the forthcoming There is reported to be anxiety

:28:27.:28:29.

in Number 10 that the referendum could coincide with a fresh wave

:28:30.:28:33.

of migrants crossing At the weekend Jeremy Corbyn visited

:28:34.:28:36.

the migrants' camp in Calais and called for Britain to take

:28:37.:28:39.

thousands more migrants. "Everyone who wants to come

:28:40.:28:41.

to Britain and has a connection should be free to submit

:28:42.:28:44.

an application for processing And added that, "We're

:28:45.:28:46.

talking 3,000 people. Meanwhile out campaigners have been

:28:47.:28:51.

arguing that some of the hundreds of thousands of migrants already

:28:52.:28:56.

in mainland Europe could gain access to Britain under free movement rules

:28:57.:29:00.

if they were able But just how quickly

:29:01.:29:05.

could that happen? Germany, Hungary, Sweden and Italy

:29:06.:29:10.

have taken in the highest number of refugees over the course

:29:11.:29:15.

of the EU's migrant crisis. In Germany, citizenship

:29:16.:29:18.

is conditional on eight Applicants also need to demonstrate

:29:19.:29:21.

they can speak the language, respect the German constitution

:29:22.:29:27.

and have a clean criminal record. In Hungary people applying to become

:29:28.:29:32.

citizens can apply after eight years But for refugees this process

:29:33.:29:36.

is speeded up and they need to be there for three years

:29:37.:29:43.

in order to qualify. Refugees need to have lived

:29:44.:29:47.

in Sweden for four years before And in Italy, where there

:29:48.:29:50.

were nearly 60,000 asylum applications last year,

:29:51.:29:56.

refugees need to wait five years However, gaining citizenship

:29:57.:30:00.

within the EU is determined by individual nations,

:30:01.:30:06.

so while these rules are currently correct there is nothing

:30:07.:30:09.

to stop member states changing their citizenship rules

:30:10.:30:12.

in order to make it harder for refugees to become

:30:13.:30:16.

citizens or to speed Let's talk to our European

:30:17.:30:18.

Correspondent Damian Grammaticus Tell us about the latest ideas being

:30:19.:30:36.

put forward to deal with the migrant crisis, particularly this idea that

:30:37.:30:40.

Greece could be kept out of Schengen. Various things have been

:30:41.:30:46.

floated and discussed. The one concrete thing that we have had

:30:47.:30:52.

which the commission here have been discussing today was an approval by

:30:53.:31:00.

European countries yesterday, by Ministers meeting yesterday, to ask

:31:01.:31:05.

the commission to ready the powers to extend the temporary border

:31:06.:31:08.

controls that we have in some places in Europe, so let me just mention

:31:09.:31:12.

that first. Those are the checks we have seen put in place on some

:31:13.:31:16.

borders between Sweden and Denmark, Germany and Austria. Six companies

:31:17.:31:20.

have asked for the right to put those controls in place for a

:31:21.:31:25.

further up to two years. At the moment they will expire in May. That

:31:26.:31:29.

is one thing commission is looking at. There is potentially more

:31:30.:31:34.

temporary controls, but on the question of Greece, this has been

:31:35.:31:40.

raised by several countries frustrated at what they see as the

:31:41.:31:43.

lack of ability by Greece to stop the flow of people in. What the

:31:44.:31:49.

commission has said is that there is no process to suspend or remove

:31:50.:31:54.

someone from Schengen. What there is is a process to tighten up controls

:31:55.:31:57.

at some borders if there is a risk and a threat to stability into the

:31:58.:32:03.

from the flow of people, and that is a process that they may go down to

:32:04.:32:09.

look at. Greece's position in Schengen is a different issue. I

:32:10.:32:13.

look at. Greece's position in badly to any idea to suspend them

:32:14.:32:19.

from Schengen. Is the European Commission in general in panic mode?

:32:20.:32:26.

They have reacted very badly. What they said was, first of all that

:32:27.:32:30.

that would do nothing to change the situation, to stop people getting on

:32:31.:32:34.

boats and heading to Greece, because Greece is the unique, it doesn't

:32:35.:32:39.

share a land border with any other Schengen country, so even if you get

:32:40.:32:43.

into Greece, you still have to leave either by aeroplane or crossing a

:32:44.:32:50.

land border out of the Schengen area to get back in somewhere else, so

:32:51.:32:54.

what practical difference it would make is unclear, and what the Greeks

:32:55.:32:59.

have said is it is simply trying to isolate Greece, will worsen the

:33:00.:33:02.

situation and have dramatic humanitarian consequences in Greece

:33:03.:33:07.

if you try to corral people, and there has been a plan put forward by

:33:08.:33:12.

the Belgians to create huge processing camps in Greeks, which

:33:13.:33:18.

the Greeks are very much against. So that is strongly resisted by Greece,

:33:19.:33:22.

and hard to see how that can happen. The commission feeling very much

:33:23.:33:25.

under pressure from both sides, because it has countries that are

:33:26.:33:29.

very concerned about the numbers who potentially may still come this

:33:30.:33:33.

year. At the same time, it has a plan that it has had in place for

:33:34.:33:36.

several months, agreed with country to try to tackle the flow and limit

:33:37.:33:39.

the flow, and that hasn't been delivering. And what the spokesman

:33:40.:33:45.

said to me today, we are trying to save Schengen by implementing

:33:46.:33:47.

Schengen. They want that plan followed through on.

:33:48.:33:50.

Damian Grammaticas, thank you very much.

:33:51.:33:57.

We're joined now by Ukip's immigration spokesman,

:33:58.:33:58.

He's been making a speech this morning arguing that Britain's

:33:59.:34:02.

ethnic minorities could play a decisive role

:34:03.:34:04.

Also here is the Labour MP David Lammy.

:34:05.:34:08.

Why are you trying to bring race into the EU debated referendum? I'm

:34:09.:34:15.

not trying to bring race into it, and just saying that there is a

:34:16.:34:18.

group of people who have been ignored for many years, and we also

:34:19.:34:22.

see that there is a concern by the ethnic community that likes

:34:23.:34:26.

immigration, wants it, but is equally concerned about large-scale

:34:27.:34:29.

migration, and they should have their voice as part of this debate.

:34:30.:34:33.

You say they have been ignored. Who has been ignoring them? You don't

:34:34.:34:37.

hear about it. This is the first time we have raised issues about the

:34:38.:34:43.

lack of ethnic communities such as my own that would want to hear. But

:34:44.:34:50.

most BME voters want to stay in. Absolutely, and you see that from

:34:51.:34:53.

the research they did for their booklet, but the research also said,

:34:54.:34:57.

very clearly, the one of the reasons they have been concerned about

:34:58.:35:00.

Europe and the debate is that we have had this noise and anger in the

:35:01.:35:04.

debate, which I have been trying over the years to dissipate and talk

:35:05.:35:10.

about more factually, but 60% of them want to have something like an

:35:11.:35:17.

Australian points -based system, 60% are concerned about the inequality

:35:18.:35:23.

in the system that treats European citizens more favourably than those

:35:24.:35:27.

from outside, and as David will know in his community, there are those

:35:28.:35:30.

people who have come from African states who can't get jobs here

:35:31.:35:32.

because of our highly skilled Visa network. Grannies can't come over as

:35:33.:35:37.

easily through visas in Pakistan because of the system this

:35:38.:35:41.

Government has put in place to try to deal with EU migration. A bit

:35:42.:35:45.

manic, Ukip are within their rights to appeal for the votes of BME

:35:46.:35:50.

people in Britain, and to back their case to come out. They can do that,

:35:51.:35:54.

they did it at the general election, and just 3% of getting minorities

:35:55.:36:00.

voted for them. They did it in the old by-election, everyone said they

:36:01.:36:02.

would win and they lost because all of the evidence is that Britain's

:36:03.:36:08.

ethnic minorities, as diverse as they are, and it is very patronising

:36:09.:36:13.

to talk about Indian grannies coming over, and to put all black people

:36:14.:36:16.

together as if they are all Paul when there are doctors and lawyers

:36:17.:36:21.

and teachers, the overwhelming majority of Britain's ethnic

:36:22.:36:25.

minorities want to stay because they are recognising the benefits and

:36:26.:36:30.

nervous about the risks. That is not what I get when I'm talking to

:36:31.:36:34.

people. I'm trying to make the very clear point that there are people in

:36:35.:36:37.

the community that I have spoken to have have said why is it I get every

:36:38.:36:41.

guilty to get my grandmother to come to a wedding, but if someone has a

:36:42.:36:44.

Spanish or German grandmother, they can come over easily. Why could my

:36:45.:36:52.

Irish grandmother come here easily, but my black American grandfather or

:36:53.:36:55.

Jewish grandmother faced difficulties in the Visa system?

:36:56.:37:04.

That is needs to be made more equal. I can't stand the caricature about

:37:05.:37:09.

the people in this country from the Indian subcontinent, many of whom

:37:10.:37:13.

are doctors, accountants, lawyers, you are suggesting that they would

:37:14.:37:17.

vote on Europe purely on the basis of whether granny can come over for

:37:18.:37:23.

a wedding. 25% of businesses in London are run by ethnic minorities.

:37:24.:37:28.

Why is there this caricature coming from Ukip? Why are you trying to

:37:29.:37:35.

divide one group of those who commit the country from another group? Why

:37:36.:37:38.

did you recognise that many who are here who have a darker skin are

:37:39.:37:43.

second, third, fourth generation immigrants who of course recognise

:37:44.:37:47.

the benefits of Europe. The work we have done an anti-discrimination,

:37:48.:37:50.

agency workers, minimum paid leave, paternity and maternity, all of that

:37:51.:37:55.

is why I expect they will be voting to stay in Europe. Is it you are in

:37:56.:37:59.

favour of one sort of immigration because it helps you further your

:38:00.:38:03.

case to have Britain come out of Europe rather than a different form

:38:04.:38:07.

of migration which is from the EU? I want to see a more ethical and equal

:38:08.:38:10.

migration system. Whether David leaves that that is part of what I

:38:11.:38:16.

was looking at, I was looking at the culture of the B Blaugrana with,

:38:17.:38:19.

where I was born, I think that is the fairest and most... But you are

:38:20.:38:26.

dividing the community by using two different types of immigration. I am

:38:27.:38:31.

listening to people's concerns, and this is what people are saying about

:38:32.:38:35.

the Visa system in place. They are saying that the Visa system has been

:38:36.:38:38.

put in place to restrict those from non-EU countries because it cannot

:38:39.:38:42.

deal with the immigration issues. And I don't just talk about

:38:43.:38:46.

immigration in relation to that, I talk about the freedom aspects, the

:38:47.:38:49.

communities that have come here from the Commonwealth, fully understood

:38:50.:38:54.

about freedom, we had over 2 million Indians fought for us in the Second

:38:55.:38:57.

World War and then they had a fight to get their own independence after

:38:58.:39:00.

that. Nelson Mandela made it clear that he believes that Britain was

:39:01.:39:05.

the best democracy in the world, and the UK Parliament was the best

:39:06.:39:08.

democratic institution. You said it, and million Indians died fighting

:39:09.:39:13.

for us, they fought for the European project and they are not now going

:39:14.:39:16.

to vote on the basis of whether granny can come over for a wedding!

:39:17.:39:22.

They fought for Britain to get rid of a European dictator who was

:39:23.:39:25.

killing and murdering people, they didn't fight for the European Union

:39:26.:39:29.

or the European economic community. That is a perversion of history. Is

:39:30.:39:34.

there a point that non-EU immigrants are discriminated against because of

:39:35.:39:39.

the system or the Government's attempt to bring down net migration,

:39:40.:39:44.

because that is the only area of immigration can tackle, and in that

:39:45.:39:46.

sense, there is a disco nation against people from the

:39:47.:39:52.

Commonwealth. I don't like this business of one person is

:39:53.:39:55.

discriminated against. Sadly discrimination exists in society,

:39:56.:39:59.

and it affects many people from all sorts of backgrounds, and we all

:40:00.:40:03.

fight against it. And Europe has been engaged in that fight, and

:40:04.:40:09.

many, many of written's ethnic minorities recognise that, and I

:40:10.:40:12.

suspect in London in May we will see lots of people from Europe able to

:40:13.:40:18.

vote in that election and voting for Progressive parties precisely

:40:19.:40:21.

because of that anti-racist, anti-discrimination fight. Liz, in

:40:22.:40:27.

your constituency and uric spears of campaigning, ethnic minority

:40:28.:40:31.

communities do have concerns as well about immigration and what some

:40:32.:40:33.

people would say is uncontrolled immigration. People have concerns

:40:34.:40:38.

about immigration, but I don't like the way that Ukip tries to set your

:40:39.:40:43.

fringe groups against one another and create fear of the other. That

:40:44.:40:50.

is exactly what happened when immigration happened in the 1950s

:40:51.:40:54.

and 1960s, and that is what Ukip are trying to do now. I represent a very

:40:55.:41:00.

diverse constituency, Leicester West, and I know that people are

:41:01.:41:03.

going to be voting on what it is going to do, what will this

:41:04.:41:06.

referendum mean for their jobs, their businesses, what will it mean

:41:07.:41:12.

to people's rights at work, and a bigger issue, which is what kind of

:41:13.:41:16.

country are we? Are we a country that is confident and proud and open

:41:17.:41:21.

and can engage with the rest of the world? Or are we going to turn our

:41:22.:41:26.

back on that and go back to a narrow nationalism or nostalgia? I think

:41:27.:41:30.

the British people have a more positive and optimistic outlook, and

:41:31.:41:34.

that is what will win it. That is the reaction

:41:35.:41:38.

that is what will win it. That is Of course, and they have often use

:41:39.:41:40.

the line that we are trying to divide, but I am trying to make it a

:41:41.:41:44.

whole equal affair, to recognise we are in a modern world. I'm English

:41:45.:41:48.

by birth, British by nationality and a global citizen, and we should be

:41:49.:41:52.

outwardly looking and globally trading, and what we have is and

:41:53.:41:55.

easier Larry T about the trading, and what we have is and

:41:56.:41:57.

Union, looking at something that was a project at a time we didn't have

:41:58.:42:02.

the Internet... Half a project at a time we didn't have

:42:03.:42:05.

goes there, half our imports come from there. We should be looking at

:42:06.:42:12.

ideas of our future. What about China and Brazil and other emerging

:42:13.:42:18.

economies if we are outside of the EU. That is deeply patronising. The

:42:19.:42:24.

Labour Party talks about taxation but

:42:25.:42:27.

Labour Party talks about taxation things like Oldman sacks and Morgan

:42:28.:42:29.

Stanley who are funding the leave campaign, and

:42:30.:42:32.

Stanley who are funding the leave ideas about looking after the

:42:33.:42:34.

poorest in this country when you are in an argument that is supported by

:42:35.:42:39.

the big corporate is? Just before we move

:42:40.:42:43.

the big corporate is? Just before we said about the country we are, is

:42:44.:42:45.

Jeremy Corbyn in the right place, saying we

:42:46.:42:48.

Jeremy Corbyn in the right place, migrants from Calais, and we should

:42:49.:42:48.

be terms of taking more of the main? I

:42:49.:42:55.

certainly think that we should be doing

:42:56.:42:55.

certainly think that we should be children, we have seen some terrible

:42:56.:43:02.

examples, and we should... Should we taking anybody who has a connection?

:43:03.:43:04.

We should hold the taking anybody who has a connection?

:43:05.:43:07.

the commitment he made earlier in the year. There are some who believe

:43:08.:43:11.

the commitment he made earlier in that if we pull out of Europe,

:43:12.:43:14.

somehow we will not be affected by what is happening, and

:43:15.:43:17.

somehow we will not be affected by the case. The only

:43:18.:43:19.

somehow we will not be affected by this migration crisis is if we work

:43:20.:43:20.

with others. up the drawbridge and hope the rest

:43:21.:43:20.

of the world goes away. up the drawbridge and hope the rest

:43:21.:43:30.

Stephen Woolfe and David Lammy, thank you.

:43:31.:43:32.

Now, our guest of the gay was a Shadow Minister

:43:33.:43:34.

Then she stood for the Leadership of the Labour Party and won a mighty

:43:35.:43:38.

But the truth is you don't know me from

:43:39.:43:54.

We have to convince people who voted Conservative and Liberal Democrat

:43:55.:44:05.

Now, I think I am going to be the Labour leader that the Tories

:44:06.:44:28.

Were you spending too much before the Lehman Brothers

:44:29.:44:31.

Yes, I think we should have reigned spending in before the crash,

:44:32.:44:39.

but that didn't cause the crash which was global.

:44:40.:44:45.

Do you really have to have him in your

:44:46.:44:59.

He said things in this contest that are important.

:45:00.:45:04.

I have a long way to go, I know that,

:45:05.:45:07.

but I am going to continue to make the case that we must be a modern,

:45:08.:45:11.

relevant party that can win elections, regain people's trust

:45:12.:45:13.

and change the country for the better.

:45:14.:45:22.

If Jeremy Corbyn does become the leader, at what point does

:45:23.:45:25.

the Labour Party stop becoming your Labour Party?

:45:26.:45:27.

The party you feel you could be part of?

:45:28.:45:31.

I could no longer leave the Labour Party than I could leave

:45:32.:45:35.

How does it feel that you are the person they least

:45:36.:45:40.

Why, when you set out with the messages that

:45:41.:45:51.

You know what, I don't do this because I want to be loved.

:45:52.:45:55.

I do it because I want to change the world

:45:56.:45:58.

and because I want to kick the Tories out.

:45:59.:46:07.

I hope you enjoyed that, Liz Kendall. Happy days. It feels such a

:46:08.:46:16.

long time ago because so much has happened. How are you adjusting to

:46:17.:46:22.

life as a backbencher? I am loving it, I am proud to be the MP for

:46:23.:46:27.

Leicester West and I want to help my party in any way I can to get us

:46:28.:46:32.

back into government. Obviously things have been easier personally

:46:33.:46:38.

over the last couple of months, not being on the front line, but I am

:46:39.:46:41.

determined to play my full role in future because I still believe we

:46:42.:46:47.

are a party that is best placed be in government and to improve the

:46:48.:46:52.

lives of people in this country. Will you do it without being a

:46:53.:46:58.

rebel? I am not a rebel. You have voted against the Labour whip and we

:46:59.:47:03.

know your views on Trident and you voted against the air strikes in

:47:04.:47:09.

Syria. That was a free vote. Yes, it was, but you are seen as voting

:47:10.:47:14.

against the Labour leadership. That is not who I am, I want to serve my

:47:15.:47:19.

party and get us back into government. There are big issues we

:47:20.:47:24.

have to address if we are to do that. On the economy, skills and

:47:25.:47:28.

opportunity and a whole bunch of other issues. On the economy how do

:47:29.:47:36.

you feel as the party being the anti-austerity party? Let's take a

:47:37.:47:41.

step back. We have seen through the various reports that came out about

:47:42.:47:44.

why Labour lost the election, that trust on the economy is one of the

:47:45.:47:49.

biggest issues. If you are not trusted on the economy, you will not

:47:50.:47:55.

win an election. Will they be trusted with John McDonnell? I hope

:47:56.:48:02.

so. What is a credible centre-left position after the crash? How will

:48:03.:48:07.

we create the high skill, high-tech jobs of the future? How will we make

:48:08.:48:11.

sure that everybody sees the benefits of the growth and it does

:48:12.:48:15.

not just go to a few? Those arguments and the ones you made

:48:16.:48:21.

during the campaign failed to inspire the Labour electorate. You

:48:22.:48:25.

said Labour needed to listen to the electorate and reassure them about

:48:26.:48:28.

issues they cared about before the party will get a hearing. When it

:48:29.:48:33.

came to the Labour Party electorate, did you not listen? There are two

:48:34.:48:39.

reasons why I think I lost. Firstly, people did not agree with my

:48:40.:48:43.

analysis about why we lost the general election and they did not

:48:44.:48:49.

feel I set out an inspiring enough reason for the future. I became a

:48:50.:48:53.

little bit of the eat your Greens candidate. Although I stick by what

:48:54.:48:58.

I said in terms of why we lost, that was not the best way to win an

:48:59.:49:03.

internal party election. There were issues like defending these schools,

:49:04.:49:08.

if it was a good school it did not matter how big would be set up,

:49:09.:49:15.

spending 2% on GDP for defence. We are now doing that. But that did not

:49:16.:49:20.

chime with the Labour Party electorate which you are super far

:49:21.:49:28.

away from. It would be offensive to the Labour Party electorate... Yes,

:49:29.:49:37.

we know. Where I am now is where we are focused on having a positive

:49:38.:49:42.

message for the future. There was a big question on labour and the

:49:43.:49:45.

economy and on skills and opportunity. I joined the Labour

:49:46.:49:48.

Party because I think everybody should have the chance to fulfil

:49:49.:49:53.

their potential and the changes in the economy means it is difficult

:49:54.:49:57.

for people to get skills and to get on. Thirdly, there is support

:49:58.:50:03.

amongst older voters. Our message for people who are over 65 has got

:50:04.:50:08.

to be about decent pensions and health and social care, but people

:50:09.:50:13.

who are 65 have much more different lives than in the past. Some are

:50:14.:50:19.

still working... Is anyone still listening to this in your party? You

:50:20.:50:24.

said you will stay in the Labour Party. You will stand again in 2020?

:50:25.:50:30.

Yes, definitely, I hope the people in Leicester will give me the

:50:31.:50:37.

chance. But you were the only person not to support the Welfare Bill? Was

:50:38.:50:41.

that a mistake because of where your party is then? She was right to say

:50:42.:50:48.

people did not trust us on welfare. I said if we were going to make

:50:49.:50:52.

changes to what the government proposed, we would have to show how

:50:53.:50:58.

we pay for them. But it was not distinctive enough from what the

:50:59.:51:02.

Tories were saying and that was your problem. Ultimately I care about

:51:03.:51:07.

winning over the public. I had some things I want to say. More important

:51:08.:51:14.

than the party? I wanted to have that debate with Labour Party

:51:15.:51:17.

members, but we have to turn our face to the public. All of this has

:51:18.:51:26.

not been able to say this to constituents who are struggling, and

:51:27.:51:30.

we have a Tory government for another five years. Unless Labour

:51:31.:51:37.

has a positive, optimistic vision for the future of this country, that

:51:38.:51:42.

is what we have to focus on. Do you think you and your colleagues, some

:51:43.:51:48.

of whom described themselves as moderates, really have something to

:51:49.:51:52.

offer the Labour Party? The mood and the tone of the Labour Party is not

:51:53.:51:57.

in the same place as you. There have been moderate Labour MPs who have

:51:58.:52:02.

criticised endlessly Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell. You have

:52:03.:52:06.

compared his politics to those of the 1980s and harking back to the

:52:07.:52:13.

past. I have turned down many interviews because I do not intend

:52:14.:52:17.

to be a commentator on a critique of what is happening. That is not what

:52:18.:52:21.

I want. I want to see a Labour government and the real place where

:52:22.:52:26.

I believe moderates and myself need to focus on is coming up with

:52:27.:52:30.

inspirational ideas for the future. We cannot just provide a critique.

:52:31.:52:38.

That is what people will ask. Let's talk about energy. You said people

:52:39.:52:42.

did not believe Ed Miliband's pledge to freeze prices. Do you agree? He

:52:43.:52:51.

is still holding those views. Going through a rerun of that will not

:52:52.:52:56.

work. There are big issues for us as a party. We did badly amongst older

:52:57.:53:01.

voters and I think we can have positive things and inspirational

:53:02.:53:06.

things to say. My great passion has always been the early years of life.

:53:07.:53:13.

Kids in my constituency start school on average 15 months behind where

:53:14.:53:17.

they should be in terms of development and I want to put my

:53:18.:53:20.

effort and focus on how we transformed those early years.

:53:21.:53:24.

You've got to get out of bed, put on a pair of shoes

:53:25.:53:27.

to visit your local school or church hall.

:53:28.:53:29.

Alternatively, you will have to put a cross on a piece of paper sent

:53:30.:53:33.

to you through the post and then return it in a pre-paid envelope.

:53:34.:53:36.

And we're asking to do it as often as once a year!

:53:37.:53:39.

No wonder so few of us bother to vote.

:53:40.:53:41.

How much easier it would be if we just voted online?

:53:42.:53:43.

And that's exactly what they do in Estonia.

:53:44.:53:47.

It turns out elections in Estonia mostly look exactly the same

:53:48.:53:50.

as ours, but almost a third of Estonians, including

:53:51.:53:52.

the Prime Minister, vote at home on a computer rather than using such

:53:53.:53:55.

old-fashioned things as pencils, paper and boxes.

:53:56.:53:57.

You write the number of the candidate you are voting

:53:58.:54:02.

for here, and pop it in the ballot box, and that's it.

:54:03.:54:05.

But with e-voting, you're allowed to vote as many times as you like,

:54:06.:54:09.

so you can change your mind, and the only one that matters

:54:10.:54:11.

The theory is that reduces the incentive to coerce someone

:54:12.:54:16.

the results to prevent tampering, but cyber security experts have

:54:17.:54:25.

claimed the system is not secure, and is vulnerable to cyber attack.

:54:26.:54:30.

Some of the Estonian opposition are suspicious too,

:54:31.:54:34.

but the authorities say there has never been a problem

:54:35.:54:37.

during the decade that the system has been in place.

:54:38.:54:41.

And there are some big differences between Estonia and the UK.

:54:42.:54:43.

And crucially, Estonians trust the state with their private data,

:54:44.:54:52.

even something as private as their vote.

:54:53.:54:59.

I'm joined by Areeq Chowdhury who runs a youth-led pressure group

:55:00.:55:02.

called WebRoots Democracy which is campaigning

:55:03.:55:04.

for the introduction of an online voting option for UK elections,

:55:05.:55:07.

and by Jason Kitcat from Open Rights Group who has

:55:08.:55:09.

serious concerns about the use of electronic voting.

:55:10.:55:15.

What are you asking for? Online voting in UK elections. One of the

:55:16.:55:25.

main issues we are trying to combat is incredibly poor voter turnout. We

:55:26.:55:34.

have launched a report that shows that 95% of the UK's politicians are

:55:35.:55:40.

elected on turnouts of less than 50%, so we are looking at solutions

:55:41.:55:45.

to combat that. Is it realistic to do anything radical before the next

:55:46.:55:52.

election? Today is the one-year anniversary of the speaker's

:55:53.:55:58.

commission which looks at this. You look at very similar projects which

:55:59.:56:03.

could be done in 3-4 years, but it could take up to five years. It is

:56:04.:56:10.

the political will behind it. The government could get it done for

:56:11.:56:15.

2020. It does not look like there is enough political will. What are your

:56:16.:56:20.

fears about it? It is well intentioned to increase

:56:21.:56:23.

participation, but we have had trials in the UK and turnout dropped

:56:24.:56:29.

in those trials. Experience in Norway, Finland, Ireland,

:56:30.:56:33.

Netherlands, France and Italy all tried it and participation dropped.

:56:34.:56:40.

It was quite a long time ago. It was, and in Estonia participation

:56:41.:56:45.

has not changed. If we are saying the problem is participation, this

:56:46.:56:49.

is not the solution. We studied the Estonian system and we were able to

:56:50.:56:55.

change the results. Is it because you do not agree with Jason that the

:56:56.:57:00.

participation went down? We had a look at the pilots and some of the

:57:01.:57:04.

numbers went up and some went down. In Estonia it has gone up by five

:57:05.:57:10.

points. The problem with these elections were turnout has not

:57:11.:57:14.

increased is you can be sceptical about it and point at the Estonian

:57:15.:57:21.

election. At the Labour leadership election they used online voting and

:57:22.:57:27.

they had 81%. Are you a fan? When the state falls behind how people

:57:28.:57:32.

live their lives it is a problem. I like doing my cross with the pencil

:57:33.:57:36.

and the box, but the state has to keep up. The evidence is not there?

:57:37.:57:43.

On security this is a completely different problem to banking. You

:57:44.:57:49.

cannot show people how you voted. We have shown in the Estonian system

:57:50.:57:54.

that you can steal the election and no one would know about it. We were

:57:55.:57:59.

able to bypass ID cards. A smart card is given to every citizen and

:58:00.:58:04.

we could bypass that. Security will be more important in the end and

:58:05.:58:09.

convenience. I have read the report that they have done and the

:58:10.:58:17.

Estonians have described it as incompetent and there would be a

:58:18.:58:19.

very small chance of committing these things. The people campaigning

:58:20.:58:26.

against online voting in the US and Canada and in Europe are online

:58:27.:58:32.

scientists. They say, we love technology, but in politically

:58:33.:58:35.

binding election the risks are not worth the benefits. Security

:58:36.:58:39.

concerns are quite valid. It is really important. We cannot get

:58:40.:58:45.

electronic voting in the House of commons. People need to wake up and

:58:46.:58:49.

find a way past it and I am sure it is possible. It would help and

:58:50.:58:53.

increased turnout and it is the way people live their lives. We have to

:58:54.:58:59.

move with the times. We will talk more about this no doubt in the

:59:00.:59:00.

We will talk more about this no doubt in the coming years.

:59:01.:59:04.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:59:05.:59:08.

The question was about former shadow chancellor Ed Balls.

:59:09.:59:10.

He's said there's one job he doesn't want after losing his seat

:59:11.:59:13.

Liz, what is it? I do not know. Go for one. What does he not want to

:59:14.:59:34.

be? Politician? Think counterintuitively, think

:59:35.:59:36.

politician. Thank you for being our guest of the day. I will be back

:59:37.:59:41.

tomorrow with Andrew for Prime Minister's questions.

:59:42.:59:44.

Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.

:59:45.:59:50.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Jo is joined by former Labour leadership contender Liz Kendall to discuss the EU refugee crisis in Europe, Google's tax deal and calls for the use of online voting.


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