08/02/2016 Daily Politics


08/02/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Grant Shapps and Toby Perkins for the latest political news from Westminster and analysis of the prime minister's prison reform plans.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics

:00:37.:00:39.

Downing Street warns that the jungle migrant camp could move to England

:00:40.:00:42.

if we leave the EU - but are voters being scared

:00:43.:00:45.

The Prime Minister unveils plans for wholesale reform of prisons

:00:46.:00:54.

and slams their "scandalous failure" - but after almost six years

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in power, who's to blame for that failure?

:00:58.:01:01.

From party chairman to humble backbencher -

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but was Grant Shapps just the fall guy for a scandal

:01:04.:01:05.

And can political parties stop Google making unhelpful

:01:06.:01:13.

All that in the next hour on this Chinese New Year's Day.

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And with us, as we enter the year of the monkey,

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the former Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps -

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he was born in a year of the monkey - and the Shadow Defence Minister,

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Toby Perkins, who was born in the year of the dog.

:01:37.:01:42.

First this morning, could the jungle migrant camp move to southern

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That's the warning we're told David Cameron will deliver,

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as he tries to concentrate minds on the possible national

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The migrant camp in Calais known as the jungle is home to several

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thousand migrants hoping to reach the UK.

:02:01.:02:02.

But with UK border guards posted at French ports,

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including Calais, working with the support of French police,

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they have found it increasingly difficult to cross the channel.

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David Cameron's arguing that the agreement with France that

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allows British border guards to be posted on the French side

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of the channel could be imperilled if we left the EU.

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Let's talk to our assistant political editor, James Landale.

:02:24.:02:31.

James, those commons will raise the temperature on the debate over

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whether we remain in the EU are not? They are. They are timed to be part

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of that debate. There was a deal in 2003 that the UK and French would

:02:46.:02:48.

stick border guards on each other's territory. The aim was to deter

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asylum seekers from coming to northern France. It has failed. The

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French Interior Minister is on record as saying he would like to

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change this arrangement. The Prime Minister has spoken before about

:03:04.:03:06.

this but he is now allowing this to be put out there that he thinks

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there is genuinely a risk to this bilateral deal. That is if Britain

:03:10.:03:16.

were to leave the EU. That is the claim. That is what is being backed

:03:17.:03:20.

up by ex-British border chiefs on the radio this morning. However,

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those campaigning to take Britain out of the European Union say this

:03:27.:03:31.

is pretty rubbish scaremongering by the Prime Minister. That he has no

:03:32.:03:34.

evidence this is what the French will do. And actually the cause of

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the problem in Calais is that the EU is not good enough at dealing with

:03:40.:03:45.

immigration issues. It is a hot debate. Is it also part of David

:03:46.:03:52.

Cameron's recognition that his four baskets are hardly going to set this

:03:53.:03:56.

debate on fire, or even relates to the voting public, while talking on

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big issues like security will? The Prime Minister will say he has

:04:05.:04:08.

always made the security argument. It was part of his big speech last

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autumn at Chatham House, where he made the argument of you leave the

:04:14.:04:15.

European Union there is a threat to national security, a claim

:04:16.:04:20.

challenged by the other side. What is really interesting and what is a

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risk for him, is that if he is seen to be taking the remaining arguments

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down the route of what we now call Project Fear, a bit of jargon that

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grew up during the Independence Referendum in Scotland, this idea

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that his argument is based on a warning of the negative consequences

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if Britain leads the European Union, then there is a risk that the other

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side of his argument, namely the positive benefits about Britain

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being part of the European Union, that gets washed out. He gets

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accused of being a guy who just gets -- who just warns about the

:04:59.:05:01.

disasters that may happen. The trouble for the main camp is to try

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to balance that. -- the remain calm. It is a balance they will struggle

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to maintain. We're joined now by

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the Conservative MP, Do you share the Prime Minister's

:05:13.:05:22.

concerns? Has he got a valid point? No. I don't think he has. He is

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resorting to panic and scaremongering partly because

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Downing Street is in panic mode because it's so-called concessions

:05:34.:05:38.

are not holding water. The red card has proved to be a washed-up Lottery

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ticket, and the emergency brake on immigration has been driven by an EU

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backstreet -- back-seat driver. This is a bilateral treaty with France.

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Nothing to do with the EU. There is no reason to suppose that such

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treaties cannot continue whether we are in or outside the EU. What would

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the motivation be for the French? There is nothing in it for them.

:06:05.:06:08.

What would you say Grant Schapps to the claim that this is panic? I have

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no idea if that is true or not. I am not here to answer for them. I have

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always been a pretty Eurosceptic MP. I was a Eurosceptic minister. I

:06:23.:06:26.

hated having papers put in front of me with the option of not being able

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to do anything about it because it was decided by Europe. All of the

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arguments about Europe are absolutely fair and proper arguments

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to have. In the end people will have to decide on the fundamentals of

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whether they think this country will be more secure in or out of Europe.

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I think that is where the detail of this discussion is going to be

:06:48.:06:52.

imported. Do you think it will resonate? Is there a likelihood that

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if Britain pulls out of the EU, that those migrant camps in Calais would

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move to the south of England? It will resonate as an argument in

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terms of this being something people feel passionate about. If people

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like John Barrymore, do his conclusion, it will strengthen their

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side. People who believe in the prime -- Prime Minister's view...

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This is the issue today. Security issues are important. Do you believe

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the Prime Minister? Is this a real threat? If we pulled out would we

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see migrant camps on the south coast? It is another issue you have

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to weigh up. Will it sway people one where the other? I suspect the

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answer to that is it will sway those where the other? I suspect the

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against and those in favour. It is not the issue I will be deciding on.

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I will decide whether it is better for the country economically and

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politically. You say the facts are this is a bilateral agreement, and

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that is true. But I put to you that there is no

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that is true. But I put to you that French government to maintain that

:08:10.:08:10.

bilateral agreement French government to maintain that

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to pull out of the EU. There is nothing in it for them. It has not

:08:15.:08:18.

to pull out of the EU. There is worked for them. At the new Beast so

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sure the Prime Minister is wrong? worked for them. At the new Beast so

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how can you be so sure? It comes worked for them. At the new Beast so

:08:24.:08:30.

You can guarantee the sovereignty of your borders.

:08:31.:08:35.

You can guarantee the sovereignty of your immigration policy. Let France

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police your immigration policy. Let France

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guarantee the integrity of your borders, that is what this debate is

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about, it is about sovereignty. One other point, if I may. We must have

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a positive debate. Unfortunately we seem to be in Project Fear at the

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moment. An informed debate is a positive debate about the merits of

:09:00.:09:08.

the ins and outs of Europe. Do you agree with that, Toby Perkins, that

:09:09.:09:13.

actually negative messages like this are just going to turn people away?

:09:14.:09:19.

The truth is nobody can tell us what out looks like. That is the greatest

:09:20.:09:24.

difficulty John has. He says we would take control of our

:09:25.:09:28.

sovereignty. We would still consider asylum applications if we were

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outside of the EU. We will not consider them in Calais but when

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people arrive. The problem that the ad campaign has is they cannot tell

:09:39.:09:44.

us what they are voting for. Hold on a minute, you are confusing the

:09:45.:09:47.

issue. Asylum and immigration act two separate things. When it comes

:09:48.:09:53.

to asylum I am sure we will continue to be a tolerant nation. But when it

:09:54.:09:58.

comes to immigrants and economic migration, if we come out of the EU,

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we would restore our sovereignty, restore control of our borders and

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we could simply say no, like many other countries do across the world.

:10:08.:10:12.

Does this needs to be a positive campaign? Look at what happened

:10:13.:10:15.

during the Scottish referendum campaign. That again was all about

:10:16.:10:20.

negative messaging that made it difficult in the end for the in

:10:21.:10:28.

campaign? Ultimately Scotland decided to stay in. If you are

:10:29.:10:34.

arguing effectively for the status quo, inevitably part of your

:10:35.:10:38.

argument has to be, would we be worse off if we came out? On a whole

:10:39.:10:43.

raft of issues, like how we would trade with the rest of the EU and

:10:44.:10:48.

the rest of the world, if were not part of those negotiations, how we

:10:49.:10:52.

would police these regulations, the impact of jobs -- on jobs, pensions

:10:53.:10:58.

etc, if you cannot tell us what it is going to look like if you come

:10:59.:11:04.

out, why should we believe the Prime Minister would negotiate a better

:11:05.:11:08.

deal if we were out? If you look at the comments from the Interior

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Minister in France, he said the UK could expect countermeasures if it

:11:14.:11:17.

leaves. He is talking about countermeasures to do with border

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control. There you have it, from the horse's mouth. That is a veiled

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threat. If you pull out of the EU and you take control of your

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borders, you can maintain integrity of your borders. It comes back to

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the issue of sovereignty. If you control your borders, you can

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maintain the integrity of those borders. You want good neighbourly

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relations, you want bilateral agreements. One is not suggesting

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you close shop. The bottom line is you can say no. It is as simple as

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that. We do not have that ability at the moment because we have a lot of

:11:59.:12:03.

economic migration putting pressure on public services. Britain can

:12:04.:12:08.

police France's borders at the moment to stop that issue coming to

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Britain. That may be under threat. You cannot say one where other. The

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Prime Minister and the French Interior Minister have had the lobby

:12:18.:12:21.

with the Westminster journalists, and Downing Street says if Britain

:12:22.:12:26.

votes to pull out of the European Union, thousands could come to the

:12:27.:12:30.

UK overnight to claim asylum. What do you say to that? Is that not

:12:31.:12:36.

true? It may be true. We do not know what the numbers are. Those are

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claims by people who are trying to play Project Fear a little bit. The

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problem is, those asylum seekers, whoever they may be, will be judged

:12:46.:12:51.

on their individual merits. The bottom line is you would still have

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the integrity of your borders. And if these asylum applications do not

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pass muster, you could return them. At the moment would you vote to pull

:13:01.:13:06.

out? I'm waiting for the final agreement. What about now? You're

:13:07.:13:14.

undecided, clearly. I have always been a Eurosceptic minister. I found

:13:15.:13:17.

it difficult to be told by Europe what we should be doing. David

:13:18.:13:21.

Cameron has been repeatedly underestimated for the deals he has

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ended up getting in Europe. There are about 100 competencies the UK

:13:31.:13:33.

pulled out during the last five-year parliament, the first time that has

:13:34.:13:37.

ever happened. He has shown himself capable of getting these things in

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the past. We have not had all 27 countries agree to whatever the

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packages. We have not had the detail. To say, would I agree with

:13:46.:13:53.

the today, is not possible. You could be persuaded either way?

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Correct. On that basis, what would persuade you to stay in or vote out?

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I think it is the tone of the thing. If this is really a line in the sand

:14:07.:14:11.

where Europe gets that ever closer union is not for all of its members,

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and takes this referendum is being an important turning point in

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European destiny, I think it will have justified staying in. If it has

:14:20.:14:24.

not, then in fact we would be back to where we were in the previous

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referendum in 1975. Do you think he will toughen up this deal in the

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next few weeks? I don't quite see how. I don't know. It is speculation

:14:36.:14:41.

on my part. I don't know the answer. That is why I am so keen to see what

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happens. According to Lord Pearson,

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what animal did Margaret Thatcher An octopus, a slot, a cow or a

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snake? The Prime Minister will shortly be

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making a speech on prison reform in which he will criticise

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the "scandalous failure" of prisons. Describing his plans for the justice

:15:10.:15:11.

system in England and Wales, he says he believes 'prison reform

:15:12.:15:14.

should be a great progressive cause David Cameron will announce a pilot

:15:15.:15:17.

scheme of six new reform prisons, which will be given full autonomy

:15:18.:15:25.

over how they operate The Prime Minister wants prisoners

:15:26.:15:27.

to be viewed as "potential assets to be harnessed" rather

:15:28.:15:32.

than "liabilities to be managed". And he will promise to protect

:15:33.:15:34.

the ?130 million a year prison education budget and give more

:15:35.:15:37.

control over education It is also rumoured

:15:38.:15:39.

that the government may be planning to allow inmates near the end

:15:40.:15:53.

of their sentences out of jail His speech comes in the wake

:15:54.:15:56.

of a series of policy U-turns by Justice Secretary Michael Gove,

:15:57.:16:00.

who took over from Chris Grayling Gove has reversed his predecessor's

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plans to overhaul the legal aid system and lifted restrictions

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on the number of books He also cancelled a ?5.9 million

:16:09.:16:10.

contract to train Saudi prison service staff,

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and scrapped the criminal courts charge less than a year

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after it was introduced. We're joined now by former

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Chief Inspector of Prisons, Welcome to the show. David Cameron

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is talking today of a scandalous failure of our prisons, who is to

:16:40.:16:47.

blame for that? Well, it is cumulative because when I started

:16:48.:16:51.

inspecting 20 years ago, the prison system was in a terrible state, and

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I walked out of my first inspection of Holloway where I found that women

:16:57.:17:01.

were routinely change while in Labour. The seeds of the system were

:17:02.:17:07.

sown then because when I walked out of Holloway, I went to see the

:17:08.:17:10.

director-general of the prison service and asked if I could see the

:17:11.:17:14.

of women's prisons and he said there isn't one and there still is not.

:17:15.:17:20.

There isn't a director of any type of prison or prisoner except for the

:17:21.:17:24.

high security prisons, and that was put in after the escapes from

:17:25.:17:29.

Parkhurst and Whitemoor, under Michael Howard's regime. What did

:17:30.:17:35.

you think more recently of Michael Gove's predecessor in terms of

:17:36.:17:39.

dealing with the prison system? I thought he got it all wrong, he

:17:40.:17:43.

rushed a whole lot of reforms through without making them through,

:17:44.:17:48.

and he was particularly responsible for the reduction in staff by 33%

:17:49.:17:53.

which meant that there were not enough people to do anything with

:17:54.:17:58.

the prisoners. Do you agree? Those figures are pretty startling. The

:17:59.:18:05.

number of posts which were cut were 1375 when public sector prisons were

:18:06.:18:13.

closed, and some ?900 million were slashed on the budget. This falls

:18:14.:18:18.

into the category of a vast range of public services, my interest was in

:18:19.:18:21.

local councils at the time and what they were doing, and they were doing

:18:22.:18:26.

things better with fewer people, so I don't know how it has precisely

:18:27.:18:31.

impacted on things. Well, it has, very adversely. You have to make

:18:32.:18:35.

decisions when you govern and some of them are tough decisions to make,

:18:36.:18:39.

and they are not always the things you would like to do. Fortunately,

:18:40.:18:43.

six years on, you're getting to the point where by the end of this

:18:44.:18:48.

parliament we will be able to see services which will mean we have

:18:49.:18:52.

more choices. Was Chris Grayling writes to cut those

:18:53.:18:55.

more choices. Was Chris Grayling restrict the number of books to

:18:56.:18:59.

inmates, and to leave prisons which were overflowing?

:19:00.:19:04.

inmates, and to leave prisons which accurate. Overflowing and crowded,

:19:05.:19:05.

we were made accurate. Overflowing and crowded,

:19:06.:19:10.

which enables more places. There are many things which needs to happen.

:19:11.:19:15.

which enables more places. There are Most obviously, these prisons in

:19:16.:19:16.

very expensive places Most obviously, these prisons in

:19:17.:19:18.

a sample which do Most obviously, these prisons in

:19:19.:19:20.

there, which are big touring in nature, and could be sold to

:19:21.:19:25.

there, which are big touring in far better modern prison services,

:19:26.:19:28.

that would make sense in a is Shapps right about overcrowding in prisons

:19:29.:19:34.

and that that there are enough staff still to look after the number of

:19:35.:19:39.

prisoners? The grisly overcrowded and the Chief inspector described

:19:40.:19:43.

them as cases of violence, squalor and idleness which Michael Gove

:19:44.:19:48.

agreed with. There are not enough staff. 33% cuts means there are not

:19:49.:19:54.

enough people to do the work with prisoners. Michael Gove has

:19:55.:19:57.

enough people to do the work with acknowledged that and is trying to

:19:58.:20:01.

bring back more staff but one of the problems, and Shapps

:20:02.:20:06.

bring back more staff but one of the the big problems with those is that

:20:07.:20:10.

no staff the big problems with those is that

:20:11.:20:14.

prisons where they are working and they have

:20:15.:20:16.

prisons where they are working and Quite apart from the fact that those

:20:17.:20:21.

prisons are not really suitable for doing the work that is required in

:20:22.:20:27.

the 21st-century. Do you think Labour also has questions to ask,

:20:28.:20:32.

bearing in mind that Lord Ramsbottom said the

:20:33.:20:36.

bearing in mind that Lord Ramsbottom ago? You mentioned Michael Howard.

:20:37.:20:39.

We had ten years of ago? You mentioned Michael Howard.

:20:40.:20:44.

The truth is that we have seen in the last five years, 17 prisons

:20:45.:20:49.

The truth is that we have seen in Minister talking about the education

:20:50.:20:52.

budget prisoners told they can't go to lessons because there are not

:20:53.:20:57.

enough staff there. What the Prime Minister has said, the rhetoric, it

:20:58.:21:01.

is great but Willie back it up? The failure has happened over the last

:21:02.:21:04.

few years, and I have a positive suggestion. Do you agree with some

:21:05.:21:10.

of these things that David Cameron will say in terms of more autonomy?

:21:11.:21:14.

I am not sure that is the answer. I like the rhetoric but a positive

:21:15.:21:20.

suggestion, rather than Michael Gove reversing things that Chris Grayling

:21:21.:21:24.

did, if you just brought forward the Chris Grayling repeal, that

:21:25.:21:29.

everything Chris Grayling did, I think would be a better place. We

:21:30.:21:33.

haven't mentioned probation, he made a total mess of that stop what you

:21:34.:21:39.

say to that? I don't know the detail, I am sure there were some

:21:40.:21:42.

good things he was doing. One of them were starting this programme of

:21:43.:21:45.

getting rid of the old Victorian prisons and building more than once,

:21:46.:21:49.

I am sure that is a good idea. Let's look at some of the things

:21:50.:21:54.

suggested. Would you agree with more autonomy for prison officers to run

:21:55.:22:00.

the Rome prisons? -- run their own prisons. They need direction and

:22:01.:22:07.

they need somebody to lead how they are going to do it, and the trouble

:22:08.:22:11.

is that for years and years, the Home Office and then the Ministry of

:22:12.:22:16.

Justice have direct did the how, and that is the wrong way round. They

:22:17.:22:20.

have not said what. What I would want to see is two things. Prisons

:22:21.:22:29.

group regionally which is recognised by Lord Woolf after the riots in

:22:30.:22:33.

strange race in 1990 and included in the only white paper on prisons

:22:34.:22:38.

which was published by Kenneth Baker in 1991. -- Strangeways. Prisoners

:22:39.:22:43.

would not then leave their own home area and they would be responsible

:22:44.:22:48.

for their rehabilitation. Secondly, like every school, hospital or

:22:49.:22:52.

business, but somebody responsible and accountable for overseeing what

:22:53.:22:55.

happens to each type of prison and prisoner. Then you can give the

:22:56.:23:00.

governor 's responsibility for doing at the how, knowing that what is

:23:01.:23:04.

overlooked, and they have got somebody to whom they can turn to

:23:05.:23:11.

who is responsible and accountable. Broadly you support those two things

:23:12.:23:17.

but would you support the idea of government proposals to allow

:23:18.:23:20.

prisoners near the end of their sentences out of jail during the

:23:21.:23:27.

week? Certainly. These are sensible proposals, actually. Had he gone

:23:28.:23:32.

soft? The fact of the matter is that we have 85,000... 85,000 400. There

:23:33.:23:40.

were no awards for in car 's rating is much of your population as you

:23:41.:23:45.

can. In America the lock-up ten times as many people. You are five

:23:46.:23:48.

times more likely to be murdered in the USA than here. Said prison does

:23:49.:23:56.

not work? -- so. You one sensible policies to rehabilitate people in

:23:57.:24:03.

society. That could include weekends or early release, particularly with

:24:04.:24:07.

tagging. Is a way of easing overcrowding? People might say that

:24:08.:24:12.

releasing them early letting them out drawing the week, isn't that

:24:13.:24:16.

just to ease overcrowding rather than for some altruistic

:24:17.:24:23.

rehabilitation? It is not only that because some prisoners have been in

:24:24.:24:27.

for a long time and they need to be accustomed to life outside, and that

:24:28.:24:30.

is what the release of temporary licence is designed to do. There

:24:31.:24:36.

will be a lot of conservatives, and voters who think, this is a

:24:37.:24:40.

dangerous precedent to set and it is just to do with overcrowding. You

:24:41.:24:44.

have to get the balance right anyway had my way, I would probably reform

:24:45.:24:48.

things like early release. The assumption that when you get the

:24:49.:24:51.

sentence you only serve no more than half of its. I think that feels very

:24:52.:24:58.

dishonest to the public. I would rather the sentence was near enough

:24:59.:25:03.

what it said on the tin. There were other things to go for but you would

:25:04.:25:07.

have to reform the whole of the sentencing guidelines to get there

:25:08.:25:10.

but I am not against the idea that people should be rehabilitated into

:25:11.:25:13.

society because the rapist problem we have is the inability to

:25:14.:25:21.

readjust. -- the biggest problem. Under Chris Grayling, nothing has

:25:22.:25:24.

been done about rehabilitation. It is not my area of expertise. Where

:25:25.:25:29.

it hasn't worked, look at prisoners who come out of prison and then end

:25:30.:25:34.

up homeless. It is literally a revolving door. I wrote a report on

:25:35.:25:39.

that subject and it has to be a failure of the system. Did Labour

:25:40.:25:46.

lock-up to many people? People who should not be there? I think what is

:25:47.:25:52.

more important is that once people go into prison, have we got a plan,

:25:53.:25:56.

proper resources to ensure that there is a reasonable prospect that

:25:57.:25:59.

people come out better people than when they went in but Mark there

:26:00.:26:04.

were some positive moves made under the last government. When this

:26:05.:26:08.

government came in, there was a focus on spending cuts that these

:26:09.:26:16.

aims got forgotten. We up paying the penalty for that now. Argue. --

:26:17.:26:20.

thank you. "Homes for heroes" -

:26:21.:26:23.

originally coined after the first world war in a push for public

:26:24.:26:25.

housing for returning servicemen. Now our guest of the day -

:26:26.:26:27.

Grant Shapps - wants veterans of recent conflicts to be guaranteed

:26:28.:26:30.

homes when they leave the armed 100 years ago, Prime Minister David

:26:31.:26:33.

Lloyd George promised soldiers returning from the battlefields

:26:34.:26:36.

of Europe homes fit for heroes, and this led to

:26:37.:26:39.

the Housing Act 1919. Today when service personnel return

:26:40.:26:49.

from their service they may find themselves with difficulties

:26:50.:26:52.

through personal injury and may be suffering from traumatic stress

:26:53.:26:54.

disorder, or perhaps perfectly well in mind and body, they are still

:26:55.:26:56.

facing an uphill battle for them and their families

:26:57.:26:59.

to find decent homes. I am here in south

:27:00.:27:05.

London at Haig Housing. 270 different properties rented

:27:06.:27:07.

at charitable rates for returning This is exactly the kind

:27:08.:27:09.

of thing that we want to see through the foundation

:27:10.:27:16.

across the country. And this site is designated

:27:17.:27:28.

for new homes for our veterans. We want to see, through

:27:29.:27:39.

the foundation, lots of this around the country in order to make sure

:27:40.:27:42.

that we've got homes fit for heroes That's what I have been working

:27:43.:27:45.

on with my colleague Jake Berry. Tomorrow will see the launch

:27:46.:27:50.

of the Homes For Heroes foundation. We've teamed up with some

:27:51.:27:53.

of our most senior former military generals and officers

:27:54.:27:55.

like Lord Robertson and Lord We'll also be working

:27:56.:27:57.

with charities like Haig Housing, local authorities and developers

:27:58.:28:00.

to make sure we can put an end to the discrimination we have seen

:28:01.:28:03.

against serving and former members of our Armed Forces

:28:04.:28:06.

in the housing market. By 2019 we want to honour that

:28:07.:28:10.

vision of Lloyd George And so these brave men and women

:28:11.:28:13.

who had been out there fighting for our country will have the Homes

:28:14.:28:20.

For Heroes foundation fighting for them and their families to have

:28:21.:28:22.

really great homes to come back to. According to the Royal British

:28:23.:28:39.

Legion, only 1% of veterans identified access to housing is an

:28:40.:28:44.

issue. That issue refuse to homelessness rather than housing. --

:28:45.:28:48.

refers. Rough sleeping. If you look at the figures referring to the

:28:49.:28:51.

number of people who come home and are less likely to own their own

:28:52.:28:56.

home, a third less from the military, if you look at legislation

:28:57.:28:59.

that I introduced by statute guidelines, that means council have

:29:00.:29:05.

to follow it, we discovered in a Freedom Of Information request, that

:29:06.:29:07.

councils are not following it and will be more of that in the launch

:29:08.:29:13.

tomorrow. We found some big problems, not least when people come

:29:14.:29:16.

home and they have been injured, at the most serious end of the scale,

:29:17.:29:21.

they get money for adaptation of housing, but that does not happen in

:29:22.:29:25.

till they leave and that causes a problem because there was a gap

:29:26.:29:28.

between them leaving the service and getting the housing. There are

:29:29.:29:31.

policy improvements on the things we can do better to honour the armed

:29:32.:29:37.

services. The figures, this was about veterans identifying poor

:29:38.:29:39.

housing is an issue, not just homelessness or rough sleeping.

:29:40.:29:44.

Fewer than one in ten had experienced housing difficulties in

:29:45.:29:48.

the past year, with most related to housing or garden maintenance. Are

:29:49.:29:53.

you dealing with a real problem here? We certainly are and if you

:29:54.:30:02.

speak to organisations like Haig or people who look after the armed

:30:03.:30:07.

services, they will tell you there are a whole host of small policy

:30:08.:30:10.

changes that could be made to ensure we have the best housing that is fit

:30:11.:30:17.

for heroes, 100 years after Lloyd George's legislation. What we are

:30:18.:30:21.

going to do is look at international comparisons, find out what other

:30:22.:30:25.

countries are doing, the USA, Australia, Canada, and then try and

:30:26.:30:27.

adopt the best things here. Yeo

:30:28.:30:38.

former servicemen and women when allocating housing. What evidence

:30:39.:30:39.

have allocating housing. What evidence

:30:40.:30:47.

of the councils across the country and found that some are simply not

:30:48.:30:53.

following that. But to say they are biased, as they biased towards other

:30:54.:30:55.

groups? I biased, as they biased towards other

:30:56.:30:58.

biased. I have said the bias which biased, as they biased towards other

:30:59.:31:02.

sometimes prevents people from being biased, as they biased towards other

:31:03.:31:07.

of housing they deserve, needs to end. People have gone out and

:31:08.:31:10.

of housing they deserve, needs to for this country, returned

:31:11.:31:15.

of housing they deserve, needs to own area. One big problem when it

:31:16.:31:17.

comes to housing allocations is when they don't have that local

:31:18.:31:22.

connection. We need to sort that out. There is legislation. It is not

:31:23.:31:27.

working. That is why I'm interested in combating it. I

:31:28.:31:29.

working. That is why I'm interested legislation which I think is not

:31:30.:31:31.

working. Do you have sympathy for legislation which I think is not

:31:32.:31:39.

this campaign? I think the campaign is worthwhile. We have a

:31:40.:31:43.

homelessness crisis in the country. It has got much worse under this

:31:44.:31:45.

government. We are failing on It has got much worse under this

:31:46.:31:48.

health. That then spills over and leads to failure on homelessness,

:31:49.:31:54.

it comes to people coming out of the it comes to people coming out of the

:31:55.:32:00.

recognising an important issue. I am glad to support that.

:32:01.:32:04.

recognising an important issue. I am not like is to be seen as though it

:32:05.:32:07.

is purely about people coming out of the Armed Forces. We have a terrible

:32:08.:32:09.

record, this more generally. On that issue, why

:32:10.:32:16.

would you want to push the idea of them owning or buying their own

:32:17.:32:24.

homes rather than renting? I want to see renting, buying, social housing

:32:25.:32:28.

all the way across. I'm working with George Robertson, former Labour

:32:29.:32:33.

defence secretary, on this. All types of housing. You asked about

:32:34.:32:37.

purchasing housing. types of housing. You asked about

:32:38.:32:41.

served the way for a couple of years and have been working under the

:32:42.:32:45.

British forces Post Office address, your credit rating is not updated in

:32:46.:32:49.

the same way that it would be for you and me. The government has taken

:32:50.:32:53.

steps to try to address that. I have got evidence it is not working yet.

:32:54.:32:59.

The other end of the scale in social housing... It is across the piece.

:33:00.:33:04.

How does that fit with the Government policy to pay to stay in

:33:05.:33:09.

social housing? There has been condemnation that people

:33:10.:33:11.

social housing? There has been priced out of being able to pay rent

:33:12.:33:20.

levels that are above inflation. We can get into the ins and outs of

:33:21.:33:25.

social housing, if you like. One of the things I would say with regard

:33:26.:33:29.

to that is it is important we don't end up with situations where people

:33:30.:33:35.

have gone on to have completely changed life circumstances and have

:33:36.:33:38.

still essentially been able to receive the benefit. Do you think

:33:39.:33:42.

for people over ?40,000 that is a life changing circumstance? I am

:33:43.:33:51.

looking at the proposal very carefully.

:33:52.:33:57.

Now, a logjam in the House of Lords means there's no primary legislation

:33:58.:34:00.

being debated in the Commons this week.

:34:01.:34:01.

But there's plenty else going on as MPs wax their skis

:34:02.:34:04.

Tax credits are back in the news, with Labour pushing for an urgent

:34:05.:34:09.

question this afternoon on why some people could still lose out

:34:10.:34:11.

At a meeting of the PLP tonight, Emily Thornberry,

:34:12.:34:14.

the Shadow Defence Secretary, will update Labour MPs

:34:15.:34:19.

on the progress of her defence review - including the renewal,

:34:20.:34:21.

Unless a deal can be brokered with the Government

:34:22.:34:28.

on a new contract, on Wednesday morning, junior doctors will begin

:34:29.:34:32.

And if it goes ahead, the strike sure to feature

:34:33.:34:36.

at wednesday's PMQs, when David Cameron faces Labour

:34:37.:34:39.

leader Jeremy Corbyn across the despatch box.

:34:40.:34:42.

The NHS will remain in the news when its December figures

:34:43.:34:47.

are published on Thursday morning, with politicians and pundits keeping

:34:48.:34:51.

a close eye on how A waiting times fared in the winter months.

:34:52.:34:59.

in Hamburg for a banquet hosted by German Chancellor Angela Merkel,

:35:00.:35:02.

where he is expected to make a speech giving an idea

:35:03.:35:05.

of where the renegotiation plans stand.

:35:06.:35:12.

We're joined now by Jason Beattie of the Mirror and Harry Cole

:35:13.:35:15.

Let's talk about the comments by the Prime Minister about the jungle.

:35:16.:35:31.

Izzy scaremongering voters? If you are on the side of wanting to leave

:35:32.:35:35.

the EU, yes, of course he is scaremongering. There is a real

:35:36.:35:40.

anger today in Cabinet circles that there are those... The Prime

:35:41.:35:49.

Minister promised the in campaign wouldn't be doing any campaigning

:35:50.:35:52.

until the deal is done. Lo and behold he has, crowds today. How

:35:53.:35:58.

long can this internal Cabinet truce last? If the Prime Minister himself

:35:59.:36:04.

is out there all but campaigning for Britain to stay in, planting these

:36:05.:36:08.

stories in the media, you have to expect someone on the outside to

:36:09.:36:14.

start kicking back. Jason Beattie, any word about who may be breaking

:36:15.:36:19.

ranks, or assigns that the line is going to crumble? Michael Gove and

:36:20.:36:27.

Boris Johnson are the two over whom there are question marks. Boris

:36:28.:36:35.

Johnson is sceptical about the deal. Michael Gove, we don't know. The

:36:36.:36:39.

Prime Minister making an announcement on prisons today. Is

:36:40.:36:45.

that a sop to the Justice secretary to try to win him over? What about

:36:46.:36:53.

you Harry, any names? Boris was overheard in the House of Commons

:36:54.:36:57.

telling Bernard Jenkin is that he has never been in favour of being

:36:58.:37:05.

out. My hunch is that Michael Gove is erring towards the ad campaign

:37:06.:37:09.

and will give a currently rudderless and leaderless organisation a very

:37:10.:37:16.

articulate leader. He is not popular in the teaching profession, despite

:37:17.:37:19.

the apparent success of his education reforms, and he is often

:37:20.:37:27.

seen as a bogeyman for the left. Would the benefits outweigh the

:37:28.:37:31.

negatives? That is up to the out campaign. At the moment the ad

:37:32.:37:35.

campaign have not got a figure head, or a big personality, because there

:37:36.:37:41.

are so many at the moment. Do you think Michael Gove would be welcome

:37:42.:37:45.

at the head? They need somebody with some clout. The problem at the

:37:46.:37:50.

moment is the Eurosceptics, the ones we know about, are not particularly

:37:51.:37:55.

appetising or brilliant figures, that and they could do with somebody

:37:56.:37:58.

who has more charm and could reach out better to the large number of

:37:59.:38:02.

undecided voters on this issue. They do look a bit like the mad, bad and

:38:03.:38:10.

weird at the moment. Jason, let's move on to the issue of Trident. Has

:38:11.:38:15.

that decision gone away to some extent? A decisive vote in the House

:38:16.:38:25.

of Commons does not look as though it is on the cards. This has not

:38:26.:38:30.

gone away. I feel almost sorry for Emily Thornberry. She has picked up

:38:31.:38:40.

this poisoned chalice. Jeremy Corbyn, who is against Trident, and

:38:41.:38:44.

a large number of Labour MPs who say this is party policy. They want to

:38:45.:38:49.

keep Trident. The problem you have got here is it is a division right

:38:50.:38:54.

down to the grassroots. There are a lot of Labour members, particularly

:38:55.:39:01.

those in working class seats, and the unions. How Emily Thornberry

:39:02.:39:05.

stitches these sites together, I have no idea. Is this why this

:39:06.:39:12.

decision has been delayed on the Government side because they want to

:39:13.:39:16.

wait to see what Labour doors in the end? I would never be one to suggest

:39:17.:39:22.

the Government would use national so it is a political pawn. But you can

:39:23.:39:28.

see why that impression has been made. Most interestingly on the

:39:29.:39:33.

Labour side, you have the first hint of a possible split. You have MPs

:39:34.:39:38.

like Stephen Kinnock actually saying they would stand on a platform on a

:39:39.:39:42.

pro-strident stance at the next election, even if the official

:39:43.:39:46.

Labour Party policy was to oppose it. Four years outside of an

:39:47.:39:53.

election you have got MPs promising to oppose their own party. It does

:39:54.:39:56.

not look good. Thank you. Toby Perkins, let's

:39:57.:40:01.

continue that. Would you do what Stephen Kinnock said he would do,

:40:02.:40:09.

and stand on April Trident ticket at the next election? I was very

:40:10.:40:12.

pleased with the policy we had going into the last general election. I

:40:13.:40:17.

agreed to serve in the shadow defence team. Emily Beatty and

:40:18.:40:20.

Secretary of State. She said he would go into the review with an

:40:21.:40:26.

open mind. I am, too. Is there something that could change your

:40:27.:40:30.

mind? Well, I don't know about that. I would not say I've heard any

:40:31.:40:37.

evidence that convinces me to go down the unilateral path. Emily has

:40:38.:40:39.

promised to put the evidence together. Hand on heart, is there

:40:40.:40:44.

really is something that could change your mind from your view

:40:45.:40:51.

toward strident? I have always been a believer in multilateral

:40:52.:40:54.

disarmament. I think we have a pretty good track record as a party

:40:55.:41:01.

and a country in terms of leading global multilateral disarmament. We

:41:02.:41:04.

are at an early stage of this review. Emily is gone to separate

:41:05.:41:13.

the basis of that today. There is a chance you could change your mind?

:41:14.:41:22.

It is not inconceivable. I have not heard evidence that would take me

:41:23.:41:29.

down that direction so far. You think Emily Thornberry could come

:41:30.:41:33.

out of this review as somebody who would be in favour of renewing

:41:34.:41:37.

Trident? I think she is listening to all the evidence and she is going

:41:38.:41:42.

into it with an open mind. She is considering the global situation.

:41:43.:41:46.

She will go to Nato and speak to our Nato partners, people from across

:41:47.:41:50.

the party, reaching a conclusion. I do not think it is wise at the start

:41:51.:41:54.

of the review to say, this is what we are going to find at the end of

:41:55.:41:58.

it. Would you be happy to give Labour Party members a more decisive

:41:59.:42:04.

say? I am somebody who over the years has questioned what is the

:42:05.:42:09.

right thing to do? Since I have been in this post I have been over and

:42:10.:42:14.

spoken to colleagues in Nato. I have heard about the extent to which the

:42:15.:42:20.

global community, people committed to multilateral disarmament, their

:42:21.:42:22.

beliefs on what our position should be. And I have to say that so far

:42:23.:42:33.

that evidence... Should they have a veto, or a vote? I don't think so.

:42:34.:42:39.

But ultimately as a party, we go through the national policy Forum,

:42:40.:42:43.

people look at these things in great detail and the party conference gets

:42:44.:42:47.

a vote. That will always be the way we make our policy. That was how we

:42:48.:42:52.

make policy leading up to the last general election. The unions are not

:42:53.:42:56.

unhappy -- not happy about this review. They think it leads to

:42:57.:43:01.

uncertainty and puts jobs at risk, even those who are happy that Jeremy

:43:02.:43:05.

Corbyn is the leader of the party. Do you accept it is dividing the

:43:06.:43:08.

party? Is it the sort of discussion you want to be having no? It is a

:43:09.:43:14.

topic of huge debate. There is a lot of disagreement. It is important

:43:15.:43:18.

that when a new leader comes in, particularly someone like Jeremy,

:43:19.:43:21.

there is an opportunity to debate it. Don't be frightened of the

:43:22.:43:26.

debate. The role of those unions will be important. But they will not

:43:27.:43:29.

let a change in policy happen, will they? I don't know where we will end

:43:30.:43:36.

up. They have gone into it from a position of being strongly of the

:43:37.:43:41.

view that those jobs are important. Why has the decision being delayed?

:43:42.:43:44.

Do you think it is wise of the Government? It was supposed to be

:43:45.:43:50.

March this year but it is not going to happen. I don't think -- I don't

:43:51.:43:53.

have the answer. to happen. I don't think -- I don't

:43:54.:43:57.

that we would want it to go ahead. We have always been pro-Trident.

:43:58.:44:01.

that we would want it to go ahead. saw the rocket launched yesterday

:44:02.:44:05.

that we would want it to go ahead. ability to have long-range ballistic

:44:06.:44:10.

that we would want it to go ahead. missiles, means you should not even

:44:11.:44:13.

countenance the idea of not having Trident. Why not just have the vote

:44:14.:44:24.

no? I would be all in favour. But you are and were part of the

:44:25.:44:25.

Government and you are still you are and were part of the

:44:26.:44:28.

the party. Finally, your constituency party, where are

:44:29.:44:36.

Trident? Just like the Parliamentary party, constituencies are divided.

:44:37.:44:41.

Is yours divided or in favour of renewing Trident? I think they are

:44:42.:44:47.

largely divider. There are 50 members of the Chesterfield Labour

:44:48.:44:49.

Party. There are people on both sides of the argument. I have not

:44:50.:44:56.

done a straw poll. Maybe I should. Were you pleased Ken Livingstone was

:44:57.:45:01.

removed as co-convener of the defence review? I did not lose sleep

:45:02.:45:02.

that night. Now - he was once touted as a future

:45:03.:45:07.

Conservative Leader - So how was our Guest of the Day,

:45:08.:45:10.

Grant Shapps', career Once upon a time in the Westminster

:45:11.:45:14.

bubble you could find the whisper Grant Shapps - young, presentable,

:45:15.:45:19.

climbing the ministerial ladder, Being Conservative co-chairman

:45:20.:45:23.

from 2012 in the build-up to an election that the party

:45:24.:45:28.

wasn't expected to win, but got a working majority,

:45:29.:45:30.

should have been nothing but a plus, and although outside the Eton

:45:31.:45:33.

and Oxbridge circles of the PM, his energy and back story -

:45:34.:45:40.

his cousin is Mick Jones of The Clash - made him a serious

:45:41.:45:42.

contender who could still I like to chill out

:45:43.:45:45.

when I listen to music. Trading in online marketing advice

:45:46.:45:49.

as Michael Green might have made food for satire but

:45:50.:45:59.

it is hardly illegal. It was his stumble over

:46:00.:46:02.

whether he was still doing that To be absolutely clear,

:46:03.:46:04.

I do not have a second job, and I have never had a second

:46:05.:46:11.

job whilst being an MP. The Guardian served up proof

:46:12.:46:14.

otherwise and he had Even this was hardly man

:46:15.:46:17.

overboard stuff but he lost the co-chairmanship of the party

:46:18.:46:23.

after the election in what some saw as a rather an ungrateful move

:46:24.:46:26.

by the PM and although a minister many saw is at a demotion,

:46:27.:46:29.

and then in September last year Elliot Johnson seen

:46:30.:46:32.

here took his own life, claiming he was bullied

:46:33.:46:40.

by Mark Clark, seen here, the organiser of a youth wing

:46:41.:46:47.

election campaign called Road Trip. Grant Shapps had agreed to the idea

:46:48.:46:49.

and to Mr Clark running it but even during the campaign

:46:50.:46:53.

Grant Shapps' aide Paul Abbott - seen here next Lynton Crosby -

:46:54.:46:55.

admitted in e-mails that he was aware of

:46:56.:46:57.

complaints against Mr Clark. More complaints were raised

:46:58.:46:59.

and Mr Shapps decided he must He was not party chairman

:47:00.:47:02.

when the most lurid complaints were made about Mark Clark,

:47:03.:47:14.

nor when Mr Johnson died. He is now sole party chairman,

:47:15.:47:16.

ever closer to David Cameron, and that whisper about leadership

:47:17.:47:22.

and Mr Shapps has evaporated. Grant Shapps, they say all political

:47:23.:47:40.

careers end in failure, your ministerial career ended badly, do

:47:41.:47:44.

you agree? Yes, I stepped down because it was the right thing to

:47:45.:47:49.

do, I did not feel comfortable in a position where I had appointed

:47:50.:47:54.

somebody who turned out, if you believe it, not to be a good thing,

:47:55.:47:58.

and I thought somebody should take responsibility. The old-fashioned

:47:59.:48:02.

right thing to do. If you could go back, what would you have done

:48:03.:48:07.

differently? Not put that particular person in place. Were there signs?

:48:08.:48:13.

There were things that happen, little things, what were they? What

:48:14.:48:18.

rang alarm bells? A lot of complaints were things that were

:48:19.:48:25.

just people not getting on, nothing big, but that is why there is an

:48:26.:48:28.

enquiry going on which I will certainly be interested to see what

:48:29.:48:32.

they come up with full stop what I did not like was it looks like there

:48:33.:48:37.

was a conspiracy or cover-up afterwards, and I did not want be

:48:38.:48:40.

part of that, not for the Johnson family who lost their son, and it

:48:41.:48:45.

did not seem like the right thing to do. For reference, nobody asked me

:48:46.:48:52.

to step down or resign. Nobody wanted me to, probably with the

:48:53.:48:57.

exception of the Johnson is. I did it for them because they had asked.

:48:58.:49:01.

You said, in your resignation letter, I cannot help but think that

:49:02.:49:08.

those who complained should have set alarm bells ringing sooner. There

:49:09.:49:13.

was no smoking gun that somebody set an alarm bell would have rung. May

:49:14.:49:20.

be a shirt, maybe something should have added up and that is why the

:49:21.:49:25.

investigation will be helpful. Either way, forget that, I signed a

:49:26.:49:28.

piece of paper that brought somebody into the campaign. It led to

:49:29.:49:34.

something so serious that it is beyond the things we argue about in

:49:35.:49:39.

this studio, and I thought it was right that somebody said, OK, the

:49:40.:49:45.

rug. With me. You regret bringing him in now with hindsight. It let's

:49:46.:49:52.

to turn of events with a tragic ending and I thought it was the

:49:53.:49:55.

right thing to do and I have no regrets it. The difference between

:49:56.:50:00.

me being in a ministerial career and is not, compared to something that

:50:01.:50:05.

serious, it was trivial. Why be the only person who felt they should

:50:06.:50:10.

resign it is of what happened? I can only answer for myself and can only

:50:11.:50:14.

make my decisions. I have to go to bed and sleep at night and I do not

:50:15.:50:20.

say this to put pressure on others. It is up for everyone to decide what

:50:21.:50:25.

they do. I also thought that the fact I had signed that piece of

:50:26.:50:28.

paper meant I was the appropriate person to step down. Do you think a

:50:29.:50:34.

blind eye was turned to activities going on? Actually, I don't think

:50:35.:50:43.

that was what happened. As a party, they are good at dealing with a

:50:44.:50:46.

council who fell out with a chairman. I don't think we are good

:50:47.:50:51.

at dealing with things that are at this kind of level of seriousness.

:50:52.:50:56.

Actually, the very serious complaints, the 25 complaints, were

:50:57.:51:00.

received last summer and I think they were on their way to be looked

:51:01.:51:04.

at in a more serious way that again this is why a proper enquiry... That

:51:05.:51:11.

is why... That enquiry is ongoing. You don't think this is a proper

:51:12.:51:16.

enquiry? I think it would be helpful if the enquiry was set up in

:51:17.:51:24.

conjunction with the Johnsons. I will speak to them. I hope we learn

:51:25.:51:29.

lessons from it. Look, I don't think the Tories wanted this to happen,

:51:30.:51:33.

obviously, but what processes do you have in place? Where complaints

:51:34.:51:39.

handled? What of care to you have for young people who campaign for

:51:40.:51:42.

the organisation? They are proper questions to answer and I just felt

:51:43.:51:47.

that the right thing to do with step down. -- duty of care. Even though

:51:48.:51:53.

it is not the sort of enquiry would like to have seen, which in a way

:51:54.:51:58.

has lent itself to accusations of cover-up, do you accept that? I did

:51:59.:52:04.

not want to be personally still in place went dumping was not being

:52:05.:52:10.

seen as open as it should have been. -- something. As a result of that,

:52:11.:52:18.

it has become a more arm's-length thing which is the right thing to

:52:19.:52:24.

do. As we have said, so far, you are the only person in a position of 1's

:52:25.:52:30.

ability to face consequences. -- responsibility. When the report

:52:31.:52:34.

comes back, will others consider their position? I don't know out

:52:35.:52:39.

there want to speculate the coroner still has to do report, and then

:52:40.:52:42.

there is the investigation to come back. I think better than taking

:52:43.:52:50.

revenge... It is about accountability and responsibility.

:52:51.:52:54.

Do you think Lord Feldman, the co-chairman at the time and he still

:52:55.:53:01.

is, does he bear responsibility? We can see what the report says but I

:53:02.:53:05.

am not personally piling on the pressure at all. I think it is right

:53:06.:53:09.

to have a process and we will find out what it says. I suspect what has

:53:10.:53:14.

happened here is that we need to have as a party proper processes in

:53:15.:53:19.

place, a duty of care, and learn the lessons, which will be far more

:53:20.:53:22.

valuable than who does and who does not resign from a job. But for the

:53:23.:53:30.

Johnson family, bearing in mind whatever the wares on why force,

:53:31.:53:37.

there was a tragedy. A dreadful tragedy. Should others their

:53:38.:53:40.

response but he directly or indirectly? I am not trying to fudge

:53:41.:53:47.

this because I have stated my responsibility and I think it is

:53:48.:53:50.

right that we learn the lessons and find out how this death came about

:53:51.:53:56.

because there may well be other circumstances which are not related

:53:57.:54:00.

to the particular aspects of what happened in the party. Should the

:54:01.:54:05.

report be published in full? As full as possible. I imagine there are

:54:06.:54:10.

people who give evidence where they may need confident charity. Your

:54:11.:54:16.

evidence? Oh, yes. -- confidentiality. It has been badly

:54:17.:54:23.

handled, hasn't it? I was not happy with the way it was originally

:54:24.:54:26.

handled. The sensible thing would be to have the family in to express

:54:27.:54:31.

condolences directly to them, and secondly, to set up a review which

:54:32.:54:34.

would have been something they could have helped shape. The lesson can be

:54:35.:54:40.

learnt about that for anything in the future. One hopes nothing like

:54:41.:54:45.

this ever happens again. Personally, I did not feel right or comfortable

:54:46.:54:50.

being connected with all of that and that is why I wanted to stand down,

:54:51.:54:54.

to send a strong signal to Mr and Mrs Johnson who I have subsequently

:54:55.:55:04.

spoken to, and I have taken responsibility for this. Something a

:55:05.:55:07.

little different. Typed our own names into Google

:55:08.:55:10.

to see what comes up. These days Google has

:55:11.:55:14.

an 'autocomplete' function which helpfully suggests search

:55:15.:55:15.

terms based on user input. However, while there are plenty

:55:16.:55:17.

of suggested search terms when you put 'labour'

:55:18.:55:20.

into the search engine - not all of them complimentary -

:55:21.:55:22.

there are no similar suggestions It's led to conspiracy theories that

:55:23.:55:24.

Google is censoring its search terms Ellie Price has been

:55:25.:55:28.

searching for answers... at Daily Politics towers, searching

:55:29.:55:40.

for interesting political things. That does involve Google which tries

:55:41.:55:46.

to help us by predicting what we might be searching for,

:55:47.:55:48.

based on what other users This is what happens when you look

:55:49.:55:51.

up the political parties. Except for, mysteriously,

:55:52.:56:00.

the Conservatives where absolutely It has prompted some

:56:01.:56:01.

to wonder whether Google Google insists there

:56:02.:56:15.

is nothing untoward going on, that their predictions are based

:56:16.:56:18.

on a number of factors, including the popularity

:56:19.:56:20.

of certain search terms, but they also point out they can

:56:21.:56:22.

remove inappropriate And even if the searches

:56:23.:56:24.

are predictable, the results Yes, look shocked, both of you. Not

:56:25.:56:45.

as exciting as you think, I can assure you. Do you think the

:56:46.:56:49.

Conservatives are doing a good job at making sure there are only

:56:50.:56:54.

favourable terms for the Internet searchers? There is no basis for

:56:55.:56:59.

that at all. A lot of rubbish gets spoken. I saw a story about the tax

:57:00.:57:03.

bill. I was one of 17 ministers that met with Google but I met with them

:57:04.:57:10.

while I was international development minister, it

:57:11.:57:12.

while I was international an exciting discussion about tax. Do

:57:13.:57:16.

you believe the conspiracy theory? I don't know. It is startling that it

:57:17.:57:28.

should show that. Perhaps you could suggest. How do you do this? There

:57:29.:57:34.

are ways of actually making sure that favourable responses come up

:57:35.:57:43.

when you Google certain things? You type my name and there will be big

:57:44.:57:49.

plenty of less than favourable terms. -- there will be plenty. I

:57:50.:57:54.

don't know whether you can manage this or whether Google can enlighten

:57:55.:57:58.

us. If you go across the Internet you can find a huge amount about the

:57:59.:58:01.

Conservative Party. I don't quite know.

:58:02.:58:03.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:04.:58:06.

Was it a) an octopus b) a sloth c) a cow or d) a snake?

:58:07.:58:11.

So Grant and Toby: what's the correct answer?

:58:12.:58:20.

I have no idea if it is true that octopus would feel right. There has

:58:21.:58:31.

been a debate... Yes, it is the right answer, it was a guest. Who do

:58:32.:58:37.

you agree with? Margaret Thatcher said we should stay in or out of the

:58:38.:58:42.

EU? I am sure she would have my line. Sit on the fence! Actually, is

:58:43.:58:50.

this going to be a line in the sand or is it another one of the EU

:58:51.:58:55.

things. On that question, we have run out of time stop thank you to

:58:56.:59:00.

both of you for being our guests of the day, goodbye.

:59:01.:59:04.

The latest political news from Westminster, including analysis of the prime minister's prison reform plans. Jo Coburn is joined by former Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps and shadow defence minister Toby Perkins.


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