23/02/2016 Daily Politics


23/02/2016

Jo Coburn discusses the latest political developments at Westminster and Holyrood with Scottish Labour leader, Kezia Dugdale. Plus is there a crisis in Britain's curry houses?


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Prime Minister is on the road trying to sell his EU vision

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to the public, while back here at Westminster his party

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is firmly split over whether Britain should stay in or go out.

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Big business has come to David Cameron's aid this morning,

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with a third of the 100 biggest companies listed on the Stock

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Exchange warning of the dangers of leaving.

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But who do they represent, and what happened to the other two

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As the UK and Scottish governments wrangle over a deal on funding,

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we'll be talking to Labour's Scottish leader,

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Kezia Dugdale, about her plans to raise income tax.

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And then we're going to Washington, DC to take back the White House.

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As the race to become US presidential candidate continues

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to confound expectations, we'll hear from this man who nearly

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made it to the race to the White House.

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And MPs are dishing up a warning that the UK is in the grip

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of a curry crisis - are immigration rules to blame

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Regular viewers will remember a few weeks ago we were joined

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by the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson as our

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Well, if you thought she had a tricky task ahead in this Scottish

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election year, today I'm joined by a woman

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of the toughest jobs in British politics -

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Zia Dugdale. Kes da Dugdale. Kezmania Dugdale. Dugdale There are

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a lot She's the leader of

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the Scottish Labour Party So the btirf Conservative truce over

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the referendum on our membership of the EU is well and truly over,

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with many of this morning's papers focusing on the widening division

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between MPs and the cabinet over Labour is relatively united

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when it comes to Europe, but not so much on the tricky

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issue of the Trident The latest party policy hearing

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on whether to replace it takes place this afternoon, and two former

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Labour defence secretaries - George Robertson and John Hutton -

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have written an article saying that Labour's defence review

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is "sliding into chaos". Is that how you see it? Not at all.

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There is no doubt a mixture of positions in the Labour Party on

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Trident. I inherited that when I became leader of the Scottish Labour

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Party, in my approach, to have a healthy democratic debate within the

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Scottish Labour Party. We devoted a day at our party conference in

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October for the party to get into the nuts and bolts of this and

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resolved that the position of the Scottish Labour Party was not to

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renew Trident and every penny than could be saved from that should be

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used to protect and invest in jobs in the communities affected in

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Scotland. But that's in the your shoe, is it? I'm a multilateralist I

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recognise on an issue that's complex, the way to deal with is a

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healthy, democratic way. Do you want to have Trident renewed or not?

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Everybody in the Labour Party is union nighted around seeing a world

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free from nuclear weapons. It is about the best way to do that. I'm a

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multi-naturalist and I'm leading a party which has taken a democratic

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decision not to renew Trident. That was very healthy, good debate. We

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have a leader in Scotland, you, and a matter in Scotland that don't

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agree on this issue and we have Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the

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Labour Party and his parliamentary party that also don't agree, so,

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yes, you could call it an understatement to say there is a

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mixture of views. There is also a mixture of views in the terms of the

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unions in Scotland and nationally, it is chaos, isn't it? I totally get

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why there are mixed views across different parts of the party. Part

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of that is because there is new leadership in Scotland and across

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the UK. Both Jeremy and I are taking different approaches to resolve

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this. What is clear from the Scottish Labour position is we

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oppose the renewal of Trident and we would use any money we save from

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that to protect the job. That's an honest position when you compare to

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what the SNP say they would do. They say they would spend the money 12

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difference ways, whether in childcare, the NHS, a new army. Will

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you be making a submission? Scottish Labour will put forward its

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position. with what she said would be her next

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election battle bus. At the end of the show,

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Kezia will give us The Prime Minister has been visiting

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a business in where he's been hammering

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home his message that a vote to leave the EU represents

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a leap in the dark. And that message has been echoed

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by leaders of some of Britain's largest companies, who warn leaving

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would threaten jobs and put was signed by almost

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200 business chiefs, including the bosses of Airbus,

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HSBC and Marks Spencer. Together they employ more

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than 1 million people. They said the PM had secured

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a commitment from the EU "to reduce the burden of regulation"

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and to sign off on "crucial The signatories included

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the chairmen or chief executives of 36 FTSE 100 companies -

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an index of the largest companies However, campaigners for Britain

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to leave the EU point out two-thirds of FTSE 100 companies haven't signed

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- among them major firms They also claim smaller

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businesses are more sceptical about the advantages

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of staying in the EU. They have also been critical of

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number 10's involvement in organising the letter.

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Well, as I said, David Cameron has been speaking

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to an audience at a business in Slough this morning.

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This is a decision, though, that lasts for life. We make this

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decision and it is probably going to be the only time in our generation

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when we make this decision. I was determined to make sure the British

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people had the very best possible decision. So what I have done for

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the last nine months is to try and sort out some of the things that

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people are frustrated with, with the European Union. It is not a perfect

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organisation. No organisation is perfect. David Cameron, there.

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I'm joined now by Pete Chadha, who runs a technology business

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and will be campaigning for the UK to leave the EU.

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And by James McGrowery from the Britain Stronger in Europe group

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which helped organise the letter. Are you disappointed there weren't

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more FTSE 100 companies signed up to the letter? Not at all. 36 is a

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great result. 36 of the biggest companies that employ 1 million

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people in Britain, 1 million British jobs, all firmly saying we should

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stay. What happened to the other two-thirds? #w8, some have

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complicated corporate governance arrangements it would take a long

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time to sign things off. -- some of them have. I would say at the moment

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it is 36-0. There is not a single FTSE company coming out saying we

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should leave. I think it is a spectacular piece of spin to suggest

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a 36-0 is anything other than a pretty heavy defeat when it comes to

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this letter, to those wishing to leave the European Union. Is it just

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playing to fear, telling people it will be treacherous, difficult, if

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Britain leaves the UK, by saying the economy will be at risk? I think it

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is project reality, with you, Jo. You know, people who work in these

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companies, think, want it hear from their bosses, what the impact would

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be on this massive choice we face as a country. I think it is a perfectly

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reasonable thing to do to ask people who employ 1 million people in the

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country what the impact would be on investment, growth, and what the

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impact will be on jobs and have them state clearly they think for all of

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those reasons, we are much better off in the European Union. It is a

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big blow to your campaign because these are very powerful people in

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the sense they employ an awful lot of people and they have a very big

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say. Are you saying they are all wrong? I'm saying that they are just

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playing the card of risk and they are concerned about - you know, the

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changes that will happen and they have vested interests in keeping us

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within the EU. Real entrepreneurs like me, out there doing business

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with the rest of the world, we think we should leave the EU to be master

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of our own destiny and most smaller business people will say that.

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People in large corporations don't want the hassle of changing and the

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stock markets being nervous but Ron-term uks most entrepreneurs,

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real entrepreneurs who take risks every day with lives, believe it is

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the right thing. Is that an admission by you that big business

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will suffer, bigger corporation that employ a lot of people will actually

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suffer? Absolutely not but they have accountants and risk people saying

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better the devil you know, than the devil you development real business

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people out there, the man that uns are JCB and where is James Dyson.

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Why aren't they signing a letter? I'm in the in charge of a campaign

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and I'm not responsible for that. All I am is a businessman, providing

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my views that actually the long term, we will be much more in

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control of ourselves. They also have vested interest. People like Goldman

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Sachs and all the other ones, they play Europe for tax reasons. That's

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the real reason people are not picking up on. It suits them that

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they can send money through the likes of Luxembourg and Netherlands

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which the BBC showed a week or two back, they have vested interests in

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controlling our involvement in Europe. If we were independent, like

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Singapore, we are a safe haven for money this. Country can could great

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trade deals with the rest of the world. Isn't that the risk of for

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your campaign, you are seen as the big business campaign and in numbers

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terms, when you look at small and medium-sized companies and

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businesses, that is a large part of the population, involved in running

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their own businesses and employing small numbers of people and you will

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be seen as the establishment and vested interests Small businesses

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are the back bone of the country and employ millions of people in

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Britain, which ise think it is great there are a load of small business

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that is have signed the letter. You are making a big deal about the FTSE

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100 companies. It was the first question you asked, because they are

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big names. I don't think it is a matter of vested interests for tax

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reasons, I think they have vested interests, they employ 1 million

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people, I think it is a pretty important interest for a million

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families at home and the pay packets that depend on them. They can cope

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with the red tape that we hear a lot from the leave campaign better than

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small and medium-sized businesses Look at the survey that is have been

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done of small businesses. The FSB did one that had more supporting

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staying in than leaving. I'm not sure it is true. It was an FSB

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survey. There was a survey last week in Start Up magazine, I put an

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article there, I have a lot of support for small business who is

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actually think we should be out. Every businessman knows to be in

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control of our destiny is what we need to be doing. As a business

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person we take risks every day. There is going to be upheaval, the

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markets will complain a bit but long-term... The markets have

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complained, one of the biggest s that the uncertainty your business

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can take? I think these are just people playing the markets. Let's be

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fair. What are the consequences of that? The year or two the euro was

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?1 to one Europe. The markets are fickle and will always be. We are in

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a great position. We buy more than we sell to Europe, much more, we are

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in a great position, like a supermarket negotiating with a

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farmer, we are in a position of power. It is not a position of

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Norway and Switzerland. Except those are always the comparisons. I don't

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think they are valid, we are the largest market. Does this remind

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you, Kezia of the Scottish referendum battle and business came

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in quite late in the campaign. Did it help? I think it did. Nibbledly

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this is an argument about economics. It is about sustainability of our

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economy, it is about ou we bring jobs to our country and give young

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people opportunities. You have to remember, the Scottish referendum

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was two-and-a-half years' long of a campaign, this is a much shorter

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campaign. Day #1, you see businesses coming out, whereas much later in

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the Scottish referendum campaign. It is important but it is not the only

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argument. I think there is a particularly labour case about why

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we should stay in Europe, swoshgers rights, social rights, protecting

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maternity and approximate attorneyity leave. But the economy

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seems to be the main issue here. James, how involved were Downing

:13:40.:13:43.

Street? Did they write this, sign up everybody to it? Did they organise

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it in the way it has been reported? Tncht has been a joint effort from

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Britain Stronger in Europe campaign and the Government. -- It has B I

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don't think it is surprising. David Cameron has gone out to Brussels and

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come back and he is unambiguous, his position and the Government's

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position is to stay in the European Union. So it is hardly surprising we

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talk to businesses, large, medium and small to gain support. The leave

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campaign are causing number ten and Britain Stronger in Europe of

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co-ordinating this. Let me tell you, I know personal business people in

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the UK who will not support the leave "leave" campaign because they

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want to be on the right side of the Prime Minister but when you talk to

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day-to-day business, working in Europe, working, they all want to

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leave. They all want to... If that's true, why have some signed this

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letter. I have texts on my phone telling me - we won't say so,

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unless... Publish it. Are you saying businessmen and women don't know

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their own minds? No, they are dealing, obviously they are dealing

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with David Cameron from various different angles and they say - we

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won't go against the Prime Minister. That's exactly the words. These

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companies employ over 1 million people. I don't think they are

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saying it to carry... They employ 1 million, I don't think they are

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doing it to carry favour with one politician or another, this is

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integral to how they run their business, how they get investment,

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and create more jobs in the country. If you have all these business

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people supporting you, let's hear from them and have the debate. I

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don't think it is good enough to I a cert you have business support when

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there is a letter with 200 businesses making our case. All

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right. We will get you both back on I'm sure in the coming weeks.

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Yesterday, the Prime Minister answered questions in the Commons

:15:30.:15:31.

for three hours as he attempted to sell his package of reforms

:15:32.:15:34.

to Britain's EU membership and make the case for remaining in.

:15:35.:15:36.

Unusually, his biggest critics were behind him on the Conservative

:15:37.:15:39.

benches, while he was frequently cheered by Labour MPs.

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Let's have a look at some of the debate.

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We should be clear that this process is not an invitation to rejoin,

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Sadly, Mr Speaker, I have known a number of couples who have begun

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divorce proceedings but I do not know of any who have begun divorce

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proceedings in order to renew their marriage vows.

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Labour believes the EU is a vital framework for European trade

:16:09.:16:12.

A vote to remain is in the interests of people, not only in what the EU

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delivers today, but as a framework through which we can achieve

:16:21.:16:22.

Can I ask my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister,

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to explain to to the House and the country, in exactly what way

:16:32.:16:35.

this deal returns sovereignty over any field of law-making to these

:16:36.:16:41.

This deal brings back some welfare powers.

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It brings back some immigration powers.

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Does the Prime Minister have any idea what the consequences would be

:16:50.:16:57.

of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the wish

:16:58.:17:00.

Would the Prime Minister agree with me, that it is also not just

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about Britain's place in the European Union,

:17:09.:17:09.

but also Britain's place in the world?

:17:10.:17:12.

President Obama has been crystal clear that if Britain were to leave

:17:13.:17:17.

the European Union, it would weaken, not strengthen,

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The European Union is a failing organisation.

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A single market that shackles us with regulation that makes

:17:25.:17:31.

An immigration system that is betraying people

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And not to mention the eurozone, which thank heavens we are not

:17:38.:17:42.

So on the issue of migrants coming to Britain, coming

:17:43.:17:46.

to the United Kingdom, when will they first begin to be

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Don't tell us that he is going to work it out.

:17:50.:17:56.

Tell us today in this House, when are they first going to become

:17:57.:17:59.

Does he also agree it is not the politics of fear to point out

:18:00.:18:05.

that those who advocate a "no" vote, don't seem to know

:18:06.:18:08.

The Prime Minister has centred much of this

:18:09.:18:15.

Can he tell the House, in in his estimation,

:18:16.:18:21.

how much the welfare changes will reduce immigration from the EU

:18:22.:18:23.

Does he believe we have more influence in the European Union

:18:24.:18:29.

Surely the answer is more influence inside the European Union,

:18:30.:18:35.

That's why I passionately believe we must

:18:36.:18:38.

Joining us now is the DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson and Conservative

:18:39.:18:53.

Philip Davies, who have declared for the "out" campaign,

:18:54.:18:55.

and former cabinet minister Ken Clarke, who will campaign

:18:56.:18:57.

No surprise there! And our guest of the day, Kezia Dugdale, is still

:18:58.:19:07.

here and she is also backing and in vote. Let's talk about civility in

:19:08.:19:13.

the Tory party. Many people will have been surprised, including me,

:19:14.:19:16.

to read that the Primus to hug due at last night's 1922 committee. Is

:19:17.:19:22.

that true? It is absolutely true. Why? You'll have to ask him! Who

:19:23.:19:30.

didn't just randomly Gulf and hug you excite group we had a very good

:19:31.:19:34.

meeting of the 1922 committee and we were having a friendly chat on the

:19:35.:19:39.

way out and he just happened to have his arm around my shoulder. People

:19:40.:19:43.

probably took that as a loving hug. I disagree with the Prime Minister

:19:44.:19:47.

on many things, not just this, but we always get on very well and it's

:19:48.:19:51.

never about personalities but about the issue. If I fell out with

:19:52.:19:55.

everybody I disagree with, I wouldn't be speaking to anybody in

:19:56.:19:58.

the Conservative party. There is no need to follow just because we

:19:59.:20:02.

disagree. You say that but there has been a major falling out, clearly

:20:03.:20:07.

demonstrated by David Cameron's comments clearly indirectly directed

:20:08.:20:10.

towards America London, Boris Johnson. Steve Baker, one of your

:20:11.:20:15.

colleagues, reportedly as the prime minister to be kind to Boris Johnson

:20:16.:20:18.

and in the Telegraph today, Woody and hake has urged the Tories to be

:20:19.:20:24.

civil. Will you be civil? I think we will. We are centre-right party and

:20:25.:20:27.

nobody is denying that we don't agree Europe and never have entirely

:20:28.:20:32.

since been in but the Labour Party is a centre-left party and its very

:20:33.:20:36.

divided. The Labour Party rather specialises in disliking each other

:20:37.:20:39.

and they argue, where is the Conservative party has kept itself

:20:40.:20:43.

together. It is a party of government because we don't fall

:20:44.:20:46.

out. Philip and I don't fall out personally and this isn't the only

:20:47.:20:50.

subject we disagree on. William Hague obviously thinks there is a

:20:51.:20:56.

real risk of near civil War. Everybody put pressure on us to try

:20:57.:20:59.

to be more hostile to each other because it makes it more fun if you

:21:00.:21:01.

are trying to keep the campaign because it makes it more fun if you

:21:02.:21:06.

natural party because it makes it more fun if you

:21:07.:21:08.

great thing about the Conservative party is pretty well every

:21:09.:21:10.

Conservative wants to be party is pretty well every

:21:11.:21:13.

government and that makes us realise, apart from the fat we are

:21:14.:21:16.

also quite civilised people who don't fall out with all our

:21:17.:21:18.

also quite civilised people who opponents, that we can behave. I

:21:19.:21:22.

have a lot of friends in the Labour Party and I

:21:23.:21:24.

have a lot of friends in the Labour them. Does it look harmonious from

:21:25.:21:28.

where you're sitting? Not at all. I think it is a huge turn-off for

:21:29.:21:31.

voters and another big turn-off is the complete and utter lack of

:21:32.:21:35.

winning. Where are the female voices? Everything I've heard about

:21:36.:21:36.

the EU referendum debate has voices? Everything I've heard about

:21:37.:21:41.

done by men in suits. Anna Su Breanne Nicky Morgan come to mind.

:21:42.:21:47.

Now the members are campaigning on their own views, they will be quite

:21:48.:21:51.

Now the members are campaigning on forceful. It was dominated by Tory

:21:52.:21:58.

men. It was but the Tory women are not quiet. There is a real danger in

:21:59.:22:04.

this because this is ultimately about a country's future and it's

:22:05.:22:07.

going to be a democratic event in the form of referendum so people

:22:08.:22:11.

have to hear voices that look like and feel like

:22:12.:22:12.

have to hear voices that look like That's why women have to be up

:22:13.:22:17.

before of this. What about your comment, Ken Clarke, that we just

:22:18.:22:18.

played in that film, comment, Ken Clarke, that we just

:22:19.:22:22.

other outers don't actually know comment, Ken Clarke, that we just

:22:23.:22:24.

what a no vote means? That could be comment, Ken Clarke, that we just

:22:25.:22:25.

do vary. comment, Ken Clarke, that we just

:22:26.:22:34.

first referendum and we'll have a second referendum.

:22:35.:22:35.

first referendum and we'll have a that is what he thinks? That's what

:22:36.:22:41.

he's said several times. He is the only person saying that. Other

:22:42.:22:44.

Eurosceptics seem to only person saying that. Other

:22:45.:22:47.

nothing will change apart from the things that they object to, so that

:22:48.:22:51.

all the normal advantages of having access to the market will somehow

:22:52.:22:55.

still carry on and, in fact, there is a set procedure. Once you leave,

:22:56.:23:00.

and we'd have to leave if we vote no, you spent two years negotiating

:23:01.:23:03.

exactly what your future relationship is going to be. Other

:23:04.:23:09.

Europeans won't agree with British Eurosceptics and there will be

:23:10.:23:12.

distinctly restricted access to the single market. Is that how you see

:23:13.:23:16.

it? Do you know in your mind what out means? I certainly do and I'm

:23:17.:23:21.

from the only part of the UK that has a land frontier with another EU

:23:22.:23:25.

member state so we recognise fully the consequences of a decision like

:23:26.:23:31.

this. How would it work? It will work the way it worked before we

:23:32.:23:34.

joined the EU. We will have a common travel area. The Irish Republic is

:23:35.:23:38.

not in Schengen so it will be much the same as it is now and there will

:23:39.:23:43.

be a highlight of cooperation. I don't buy this idea that be you...

:23:44.:23:49.

That we are so dependent on it that we can't live without it. I think we

:23:50.:23:53.

can. And what I want to hear from Ken and others is not these kind of

:23:54.:23:58.

scare tactics and negative campaigning, I want to hear the

:23:59.:24:01.

positive case for what difference this deal will make in terms of

:24:02.:24:06.

actually bringing and delivering the reforms that the European Union

:24:07.:24:09.

needs, not just the UK but many other member states. I haven't heard

:24:10.:24:13.

that. I didn't hear it yesterday from the Prime Minister and I

:24:14.:24:16.

haven't heard it, with respect, from Ken. Do you accept that so far it

:24:17.:24:21.

has been a little like the criticisms during the Scottish

:24:22.:24:24.

referendum, negative, all about the dangers? I think we want to avoid

:24:25.:24:29.

the dangers of the Scottish referendum and the criticism had

:24:30.:24:33.

some foundation, in my opinion. I campaigned up there and I didn't go

:24:34.:24:36.

on just about the fear, although we were right about North Sea oil. Even

:24:37.:24:42.

yesterday, I made the positive campaign first but it was less

:24:43.:24:47.

newsworthy. I actually congratulated... We could influence

:24:48.:24:56.

events like international regulation trade deals and so on. Do you think

:24:57.:25:02.

rest Johnson has overstepped the mark by taking so long to make a

:25:03.:25:07.

decision? Many people felt that being mayor of London he would be an

:25:08.:25:13.

inner, to join the out campaign? Boris attends the Cabinet and the

:25:14.:25:16.

Prime Minister said the rules were that anybody who was in the Cabinet

:25:17.:25:19.

had to wait until he had concluded his negotiations before they could

:25:20.:25:24.

declare their position. As he attends the Cabinet, it seemed to me

:25:25.:25:27.

that it was never be right that he abided by the rules the prime

:25:28.:25:30.

minister set down. Do you think he's overstepped the mark? The Prime

:25:31.:25:36.

Minister was few readers about it and pretty well said so with all the

:25:37.:25:39.

comments about marriage and divorce and ambition. I watched it. He

:25:40.:25:46.

looked furious! He was teasing him with the divorce joke. I think if I

:25:47.:25:52.

was advising Boris, I would say he shouldn't have left it for two or

:25:53.:25:57.

three days so he could be on his own on the Sunday. He did give an

:25:58.:26:02.

ambiguous impression to what he did. Is he really pro-membership or is he

:26:03.:26:09.

not? He is kind of pro if we can get some concessions but, unfortunately,

:26:10.:26:12.

the concessions he wants are just incompatible being members of the

:26:13.:26:17.

EU. Let's think about later. Let's say Britain does vote to leave. What

:26:18.:26:21.

is the position, then, of David Cameron? Is he really then the man

:26:22.:26:26.

to negotiate Britain leaving the EU? I've always thought so. I wrote a

:26:27.:26:30.

letter to him a little while ago saying that if he lost the

:26:31.:26:33.

referendum, I didn't see why he couldn't carry on as prime minister.

:26:34.:26:39.

To you still feel that? What I felt yesterday was that he had sort of

:26:40.:26:44.

thrown his lot in with winning this referendum and if he didn't win, he

:26:45.:26:47.

was going to stand aside. By basically saying, which I understood

:26:48.:26:51.

it, he couldn't negotiate a better deal than Norway has got, even

:26:52.:26:54.

though we are the fifth biggest economy in the world, would indicate

:26:55.:26:57.

to me he doesn't really have much confidence in doing this they go

:26:58.:27:03.

Chez Chez. Is it right to say he is a poor negotiator? That may just be

:27:04.:27:08.

a view he is making at the moment to argue his case but anybody who says

:27:09.:27:12.

they couldn't do a better deal than Norway when we're the fifth biggest

:27:13.:27:15.

economy in the world and we have a ?70 billion a year trade deficit

:27:16.:27:20.

with the EU, if they can't do better than that and they are not fit to

:27:21.:27:24.

hold those negotiations. I've done a lot of negotiating in my time in

:27:25.:27:28.

Northern Ireland and I don't think the Prime Minister should have

:27:29.:27:30.

rushed into this. I don't think the deal he had on the table was enough

:27:31.:27:34.

and I think he should have held out. We've learned from our mistakes in

:27:35.:27:38.

the past, when you rush into things and pushed deals over deadline and

:27:39.:27:42.

you live to regret it. I think it is a rushed deal. We've got this 23rd

:27:43.:27:47.

of June referendum date. Again, we're rushing into that. I respect

:27:48.:27:52.

David Cameron. I think he has the ability to lead this country well.

:27:53.:27:58.

Would he and could he, if he loses, from his perspective, the referendum

:27:59.:28:01.

on June 23, would you still want him negotiating out? He is the prime

:28:02.:28:06.

minister of the UK. Whether he will want to remain to do that, I don't

:28:07.:28:09.

know. Would you want him to remain to do it? The Conservative Party won

:28:10.:28:14.

the election, absolutely. He needs to go in there and do what he can to

:28:15.:28:18.

negotiate the best deal. I just don't think the deal he has at the

:28:19.:28:22.

moment is the best one. It is a matter for the Conservative Party.

:28:23.:28:25.

I've been in a political party that's torn itself apart in the past

:28:26.:28:28.

four stopped I don't think the Conservative Party will do that but

:28:29.:28:33.

as to who reads the situation after the referendum, that's a matter for

:28:34.:28:37.

the Conservative Party. To pick up an Ken Clarke's point about a second

:28:38.:28:42.

referendum that Boris seemed to be flirting with, do you think that if

:28:43.:28:46.

there is a vote for the EU to leave -- the UK to leave the EU, there

:28:47.:28:50.

would be a second referendum in Scotland? The Scottish Parliament

:28:51.:28:54.

elections are a matter of weeks away and when we conclude those, there

:28:55.:28:58.

are seven weeks until the UK EU referendum. So if you believe that

:28:59.:29:02.

it is in Scotland's interest to remain part of the EU and the UK, we

:29:03.:29:06.

have to get on with making a positive case for why that is

:29:07.:29:11.

important. But with the calls be so loud that if Britain left the EU

:29:12.:29:14.

there would have to be a second independence referendum? You hear

:29:15.:29:17.

that call from Nicola Sturgeon every day. But you are there. I think we

:29:18.:29:23.

will move on to questions of currency. Nicola Sturgeon says she

:29:24.:29:26.

wants an independent Scotland to keep the pound. If we were to leave

:29:27.:29:29.

the EU, she would be in a situation where she was arguing for a sterling

:29:30.:29:33.

zone across the UK with Scotland being part of the EU but the rest of

:29:34.:29:37.

the UK not so her currency problems would be as big as they were during

:29:38.:29:41.

the last referendum. There would be a huge amount of unanswered

:29:42.:29:44.

questions for that debate. But you are campaigning on the same side as

:29:45.:29:47.

the SNP when it comes to this referendum. Yes and please to do so.

:29:48.:29:54.

What about the timing issue? Is it a problem? I assume that's why you

:29:55.:29:58.

made your comment about you would have liked a longer lead-in time. In

:29:59.:30:01.

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales we got important elections in May

:30:02.:30:06.

and that creates a difficulty with the proximity of the referendum

:30:07.:30:10.

coming so soon afterwards. We would have preferred a longer time in

:30:11.:30:15.

which to discuss and debate on these issues but the prime minister has

:30:16.:30:18.

called it. We have to go with the 23rd. We will be there to put our

:30:19.:30:23.

case. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is doing enough to push the in

:30:24.:30:27.

campaign, to push Labour's remain campaign? We don't really hear very

:30:28.:30:37.

much from him on this. It's day 2 of the campaign. Well he hasn't changed

:30:38.:30:44.

his mind, he is supposedly an enthusiastic supporter according to

:30:45.:30:49.

Hilary Benn. I think there will be time Morientes Labour voices. We

:30:50.:30:53.

need to hear from Alan Johnson, I suspect we will do that, there is a

:30:54.:30:57.

strong Labour case for jobs, opportunities, children. And we have

:30:58.:31:02.

to debate those specifics about why it is good for the UK to stay where

:31:03.:31:06.

we are. Well, it is true, civil war didn't break out on this particular

:31:07.:31:08.

debate. Let's talk now about the race

:31:09.:31:16.

to become candidate for President of the United States,

:31:17.:31:18.

where political outsiders Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders

:31:19.:31:20.

are still causing an upset. It's a contest that

:31:21.:31:22.

can change overnight - and few people know that

:31:23.:31:24.

better than Howard Dean, who ran to be the Democratic

:31:25.:31:27.

candidate back in 2004. He led the field for months

:31:28.:31:29.

but crashed out of a contest that went on to be won by John Kerry,

:31:30.:31:32.

who was then beaten Well, Howard Dean was in London last

:31:33.:31:35.

night speaking to an event at Chatham House, and our Ellie went

:31:36.:31:40.

to meet him. We're going to California

:31:41.:31:42.

and Texas and New York. And we're going to South Dakota

:31:43.:31:44.

and Oregon and Washington and Michigan and then we're

:31:45.:31:47.

going to Washington DC to take back It became known as the

:31:48.:31:49.

"I Have A Scream" speech. Having spent months

:31:50.:31:54.

as a frontrunner, Howard Dean was suddenly seen as being angry,

:31:55.:31:56.

over the top, not really fit to be A month or so later,

:31:57.:32:00.

he withdrew his candidacy. Of course I have some

:32:01.:32:05.

regrets that I lost. How fed up do you get with people

:32:06.:32:11.

like me keep asking about that I came in third in Iowa,

:32:12.:32:14.

and I should have come in first and that's because my campaign

:32:15.:32:20.

had a lot of problems, I don't mind being asked

:32:21.:32:23.

about it, I actually use it First of all, politics

:32:24.:32:26.

is a substitute for war and there is nothing

:32:27.:32:30.

fair about politics. Second of all, if you don't like it,

:32:31.:32:33.

then you shouldn't be running because whatever I got

:32:34.:32:37.

from the media, unfair as it was, and so forth and so on,

:32:38.:32:40.

is nothing compared to sitting across the table from Putin

:32:41.:32:43.

when he wants Alaska back. So if you can't stand the campaign,

:32:44.:32:46.

you certainly shouldn't be 12 years on, Howard Dean

:32:47.:32:49.

is throwing his experience behind another presidential

:32:50.:32:53.

hopeful, Hillary Clinton. I think Hillary's strength is that

:32:54.:32:59.

people know her and know she will do a good job

:33:00.:33:01.

and she knows foreign policy. She is the only person running

:33:02.:33:04.

who knows anything about foreign It doesn't often win elections

:33:05.:33:07.

but given how dangerous a place the world is these days,

:33:08.:33:15.

I think it does matter that she has expertise and she knows

:33:16.:33:18.

what she is doing. But Bernie Sanders, the other

:33:19.:33:20.

Democratic candidate, seems to know what he is doing, too,

:33:21.:33:22.

and is still very much in the race. When the primaries are over,

:33:23.:33:26.

it can be hard to create unity He is a very good politician

:33:27.:33:29.

and in close races it is hard I had to work for about a month

:33:30.:33:42.

to get my people to consider supporting John Kerry

:33:43.:33:47.

when I didn't win, so, you know, it is hard,

:33:48.:33:49.

it is a lot of work. On the other hand, the stakes

:33:50.:33:52.

are enormous, especially given Here is a guy, throwing punches,

:33:53.:33:54.

nasty as hell, screaming at everything else when we are

:33:55.:33:57.

talking and he is walking out, you know the guards are gentle

:33:58.:34:00.

with him, he is walking out like big high fives, smiling,

:34:01.:34:05.

laughing, I would like to punch him in the face,

:34:06.:34:06.

I tell you. He said things that would have

:34:07.:34:09.

killed most politicians And I think that the establishment

:34:10.:34:11.

of the Republican Party But, they may get

:34:12.:34:20.

beaten in this one. He is just a populist

:34:21.:34:23.

and is politically uncorrect is something will happen that

:34:24.:34:33.

nobody will predict. How much have you been following the

:34:34.:34:37.

campaign How much have you been following the

:34:38.:34:45.

Dugdale? Abit. I am trying to work out whether I like those ideas of

:34:46.:34:50.

rallies with the yeha at the end. What do you think about Donald Trump

:34:51.:34:54.

possibly winning the Republican nomination? Utterly frightening.

:34:55.:34:59.

Every country around the world I think will be fearful of that

:35:00.:35:06.

happening. I was pro President Obama last time. I set up a campaign 20

:35:07.:35:11.

campaign for him. What was it called? Scotland for Obama. How many

:35:12.:35:17.

people signed up? Lots of Americans based in Scotland at universities.

:35:18.:35:20.

So we had a rally in 2007. We had t-shirts. Because we did that

:35:21.:35:24.

through Democrats Abroad we were able it raise money and pass it on.

:35:25.:35:28.

You are not doing the same for Hillary Clinton? I'm a little busy

:35:29.:35:32.

with other things at the moment. Just checking.

:35:33.:35:36.

Now, is the UK in the grip of a curry crisis?

:35:37.:35:39.

partly to blame for migration policies say they're

:35:40.:35:43.

Here's the Labour MP Rupa Huq with her take on an issue

:35:44.:35:46.

Curry's always been on the menu for me in one way or another.

:35:47.:35:55.

My dad had two Indian restaurants at one stage.

:35:56.:35:59.

But whether it's a vindaloo, korma or chicken tikka masala,

:36:00.:36:03.

which the late Robin Cook called our national dish,

:36:04.:36:06.

these great British favourites are now in a fight

:36:07.:36:08.

Two curry houses a week are closing due to a range of factors

:36:09.:36:21.

including rocketing business rates and online delivery services,

:36:22.:36:25.

such as Just Eat, Deliveroo and Hungryhouse,

:36:26.:36:28.

which take a hefty cut, making margins ever smaller.

:36:29.:36:36.

The biggest threat of all is from new immigration rules.

:36:37.:36:39.

From next month, the cost of employing a non-EU chef goes up

:36:40.:36:45.

from ?18,000 to ?35,000, significantly above the UK average

:36:46.:36:51.

Eric Pickles introduced curry colleges, to great fanfare.

:36:52.:36:59.

Not one student has seen this course through to qualification.

:37:00.:37:10.

The new measures will exacerbate existing problems and cause dire

:37:11.:37:20.

staff shortages, adversely affecting the ability of British

:37:21.:37:23.

businesses to bring in skilled chefs from countries such as India,

:37:24.:37:27.

Pakistan and Bangladesh, as well as Turkey and China.

:37:28.:37:39.

The Government needs to think again and relax its restrictions,

:37:40.:37:42.

to allow skilled workers of all types to come here and train.

:37:43.:37:45.

After all, the ethnic food industry contributes billions

:37:46.:37:47.

We need now to save it and head off the coming curry crisis.

:37:48.:38:02.

Rupa Huq is here in the studio now, and the Conservative MP

:38:03.:38:04.

Come back rather than still being here. Is this a crisis, how are you

:38:05.:38:16.

quantifying it? Two curry houses are shutting down each week in the UK?

:38:17.:38:19.

Well crisis is overused in politics. But I think it is something, a wider

:38:20.:38:24.

malaise that hits the high street. So the staples of our high street

:38:25.:38:30.

that we knew as a child have gone. Gone there's no more Woolworths,

:38:31.:38:35.

obviously you can't bring back a dodo if it is extinct but there are

:38:36.:38:40.

things we can do to stop small businesses closing down, so two

:38:41.:38:44.

curry houses but shocking figures about pubs. It is about, as you say,

:38:45.:38:49.

Chinese restaurants, Turkish, kebab joints, they are closing, too. This

:38:50.:38:53.

is really just symptomatic, in your mind of what is happening? You are

:38:54.:38:58.

right, its a sector-wide problem throughout the catering industry.

:38:59.:39:04.

Ethnic catering. I had one that said ?5.5 billion, I heard that last year

:39:05.:39:11.

at Chinese new year, I don't know if this is' Chinese and Indian combined

:39:12.:39:17.

but they contribute to the economy and risk taking entrepreneurs. Why

:39:18.:39:23.

can't they get the chefs they need? A range of factors, some things can

:39:24.:39:28.

he can't do much about. The food prices are rising and against the

:39:29.:39:32.

weak wind it has gone wrong but the thing about immigration, the

:39:33.:39:35.

restrictions on non-EU migrants, they have changed the threshold T

:39:36.:39:39.

used to be you would pay them ?18,000. That has walloped up to

:39:40.:39:43.

?35,000. That surely is I will killing off the industry slowly but

:39:44.:39:47.

surely, it is a very high bar, ?35,000. Why does the Conservatives

:39:48.:39:51.

want to do this? Well, I'm aFreud this is a consequence of being in

:39:52.:39:55.

the EU. The can't Will Government can't control immigration from

:39:56.:40:00.

within the EU, it is having to put -- I'm afraid, it is having to put

:40:01.:40:05.

extra restrictions from people outside the EU so immigration

:40:06.:40:09.

figures don't get phenomenally high. Justifying the wages being paid from

:40:10.:40:13.

?18,000 to ?35,000. The Government are having to clamp down on

:40:14.:40:17.

immigration from outside the EU in anyway it can to make migration

:40:18.:40:20.

figures in anyway manageable. But they are not anyway. But if they

:40:21.:40:25.

didn't have restrictions, migration figures would be even higher. It is

:40:26.:40:29.

reality, isn't it? The only way that the Government can try and tackle,

:40:30.:40:34.

and in this case fail, to bring down net migration figures, is actually

:40:35.:40:38.

trying to make it more difficult for non-EU migrants to come here? There

:40:39.:40:41.

are other imagine in ative things you can do that wouldn't be a burden

:40:42.:40:46.

on the taxpayer -- imaginative. That wouldn't be a cost to the welfare

:40:47.:40:50.

state. You could make temporary visa, maybe for two years maximum,

:40:51.:40:53.

bring people n they have that in America, similar to the Greene card

:40:54.:40:57.

points' system thing that people could come and G it looks like

:40:58.:41:01.

recruitment of the host population, or whatever you call them, the Brits

:41:02.:41:06.

here, people like myself. My dad had two Indian restaurants, but I'm in

:41:07.:41:09.

the going into, that maybe the children of curry house owners don't

:41:10.:41:15.

want to do it. It has relied on subcontinental migration. There were

:41:16.:41:17.

the curry colleges, but they seem to have failed. They were set up by

:41:18.:41:21.

Eric Pickles and didn't do anything. Are they worth trying to reinvent? I

:41:22.:41:25.

don't think we need a state intervention. My constituency is in

:41:26.:41:32.

Bradford. We have massive curry places sane a massive part of my

:41:33.:41:36.

local economy. I have sympathy for the points being made. I don't it

:41:37.:41:42.

needs state intervention. One of my curry houses, the man who runs that

:41:43.:41:46.

has done work with Bradford college trying to train up chefs who live

:41:47.:41:49.

here and giving them the skills in order to do this. I think some of

:41:50.:41:53.

the curry houses and colleges can work together, to skill up people

:41:54.:41:56.

who are already here without needing to bring other people in from around

:41:57.:42:00.

the world. Is it a big problem on your high street? Very much so, I

:42:01.:42:04.

have met with people from the Bangladeshi community in Edinburgh

:42:05.:42:07.

who are anxious about the affect on restaurants in Edinburgh. Of all the

:42:08.:42:11.

sensationalist scare-mongering arguments I have heard in the past

:42:12.:42:15.

few days about why we have to leave the European Union, the idea that

:42:16.:42:18.

the curry is under threat, it is petty... It is It is a fact of

:42:19.:42:22.

immigration, that's why we have more restrictions. There are other things

:42:23.:42:26.

you can do. As part of a manifesto we were going to cut rates for small

:42:27.:42:29.

businesses. This Government doesn't seem to be doing that. What about,

:42:30.:42:33.

though, trying to do something from a Governmental point of view, not to

:42:34.:42:36.

do with immigration. There will be many people who will say - I cannot

:42:37.:42:40.

believe you cannot recruit locally? There must be qualified chefs within

:42:41.:42:44.

the communities like the Bangladeshi community that you can recruit from?

:42:45.:42:47.

There's just not. These are skilled jobs. There is a very strong

:42:48.:42:51.

argument from within the communities about why you have to bring people

:42:52.:42:54.

in to do the jobs. The Tory Government do not have to raise this

:42:55.:42:58.

threshold. It is an active political choice you are making. You can sit

:42:59.:43:02.

there and say you regret it and it is bad for your constituency but

:43:03.:43:06.

your Government is doing this, it is a choice. I have explained why the

:43:07.:43:10.

Government have had to restrict immigration from non-EU countries.

:43:11.:43:12.

It is a consequence of open borders from within the EU. You may in the

:43:13.:43:17.

like that argument t may be an inconvenient fact but it is why the

:43:18.:43:21.

Government are restricting non-EU immigration, whether you like it or

:43:22.:43:26.

not Come to the kunchts take decent skilled, jobs, pay the tax, invest

:43:27.:43:29.

in the fabric of society. I don't know what you don't like. These are

:43:30.:43:34.

entrepreneurial, risk-taking people. I want to control immigration from

:43:35.:43:38.

everywhere. If we had controlled immigration from within the EU, the

:43:39.:43:41.

Government could afford to be relaxed about immigration from

:43:42.:43:44.

outside the EU, that's a consequence of wanting to stay within the EU you

:43:45.:43:49.

have to face up to the consequences It is a cheap argument. It might be

:43:50.:43:53.

cheap, it is inconvenient, I appreciate but it is tru. That's why

:43:54.:43:57.

non-EU immigration has been restricted for that single purpose.

:43:58.:44:00.

Shouldn't the Government be doing more to get these people into work,

:44:01.:44:04.

one way or the other, rather than making it more difficult, putting

:44:05.:44:07.

the immigration issue to one side? Well I think we need to try and

:44:08.:44:11.

everybody can help to skill up people who are already in the UK. We

:44:12.:44:15.

have lots of people who are unemployed. We have lots of people

:44:16.:44:17.

from ethic minorities who are unemployed. I think that some of the

:44:18.:44:20.

restaurants and the colleges can work together to develop the skills

:44:21.:44:26.

that people who are already here, have the skills for the future. What

:44:27.:44:31.

is wrong with that? There used to be the possibility of overseas students

:44:32.:44:34.

working at curry houses at weekends. That was taken away by this

:44:35.:44:38.

Government. There are simple things that could be done. Do you people

:44:39.:44:43.

don't want to do it? I think this argument is ridiculous and to use it

:44:44.:44:47.

as a distraction to talk about the European Union, is cheap. What is

:44:48.:44:51.

your favourite curry? Chicken Madras. Chicken tikka McSallia,

:44:52.:44:56.

Robin Cook Madras. Chicken tikka McSallia,

:44:57.:44:58.

dish. What about you? Keala gosh. The deal, or lack of one,

:44:59.:45:11.

centres on how the block grant Brian, I won't ask you about

:45:12.:45:28.

favourite curries. We will talk about the fiscal framework. I like

:45:29.:45:35.

the really gentle ones. Let's get back to the substance of the matter.

:45:36.:45:40.

Are the various parties here preparing their exit strategies

:45:41.:45:42.

before a deal is even done? There's a bit of that going on. There is a

:45:43.:45:47.

bit of blame game going on. Both sides are saying, we will publish

:45:48.:45:52.

the papers as and when the negotiations break down, to show we

:45:53.:45:56.

were in the right. At the moment they are saying they won't give a

:45:57.:45:59.

running commentary on the individual details. John Swinney, the finance

:46:00.:46:04.

secretary at Holyrood, was appearing before MSPs this morning at 8:30am

:46:05.:46:10.

and he said that all other issues, like capital borrowing, the costs of

:46:11.:46:14.

transition issues, the money to be devoted to welfare, all of those

:46:15.:46:19.

were settled. The snag is that the one that remains is the big one,

:46:20.:46:23.

which is how to calculate the money that is reduced from the Westminster

:46:24.:46:27.

block grant to match the new income tax powers proposed for Scotland.

:46:28.:46:30.

You'd think it was simple. You'd think it would be ?1 and income tax

:46:31.:46:34.

and there for you have an extra pound in income tax and you take

:46:35.:46:37.

away ?1 and block grant. But it isn't as simple as that. Do they use

:46:38.:46:44.

an index system, whereby they calculate roughly what Scottish

:46:45.:46:48.

income tax take is expected to be, then match that against population

:46:49.:46:51.

share, much as against changes in the economy, and their four calculi

:46:52.:46:59.

eight -- calculate the settlement? Mr Swinney said there was a

:47:00.:47:03.

discrepancy between the Kaki oceans offered by the Treasury and the

:47:04.:47:07.

Scottish government. When I discussed this with Ruth Davidson it

:47:08.:47:10.

felt like we were right against the deadline and that was a few weeks

:47:11.:47:13.

ago. Here we are and there's still no deal. We are right against it in

:47:14.:47:19.

the sense that the Scottish Parliament will be dissolved on

:47:20.:47:22.

March 23 and they go into the Holyrood elections and that's the

:47:23.:47:26.

end of it. They're not right up against it in the sense that it

:47:27.:47:29.

could then be revisited by a new Scottish Government in talks with

:47:30.:47:32.

the continuing Treasury and they could try then to resurrect it. But

:47:33.:47:36.

the new powers are blocked. They are stalled until this fiscal framework

:47:37.:47:41.

is agreed. OK, it's a Westminster bill, the Scotland bill, but it has

:47:42.:47:45.

to be agreed and endorsed by Hollywood as well and John Swinney

:47:46.:47:48.

says that if there is no deal on the fiscal framework, there is no deal.

:47:49.:47:52.

He will not accept the new tax powers. They could revisit them. Mr

:47:53.:47:56.

Swinney said this morning that would simply be putting off the problem.

:47:57.:47:59.

We said there is a fundamental disagreement between the UK

:48:00.:48:02.

government and the Scottish government and they need to address

:48:03.:48:05.

that, rather than talking about ways round it, of putting it off for

:48:06.:48:09.

delaying. Is Scotland an election footing? Absolutely, very much so.

:48:10.:48:17.

Every parliament everywhere is an footing from one election to the

:48:18.:48:20.

next but they are very much in this mode. You have the SNP apparently

:48:21.:48:25.

riding very high in the opinion polls, you have the other parties

:48:26.:48:29.

trying to pick away at their record and saying it doesn't match the

:48:30.:48:31.

glowing opinion that they apparently have from the voters. Scotland is

:48:32.:48:36.

very much an election footing. Thank you. Kezia Dugdale, what is Scottish

:48:37.:48:41.

Labour doing in terms of the fiscal framework? What, in your mind, can

:48:42.:48:47.

be done to break the logjam? We support Nicola Sturgeon in her aim

:48:48.:48:50.

to get the best deal for Scotland. But what does that look like? It may

:48:51.:48:56.

be a big issue but surely everyone has thought about how much one

:48:57.:48:59.

should be reduced if the other is going to be increased in terms of 12

:49:00.:49:04.

taxation? I support what the SNP are calling for, per capita indexation.

:49:05.:49:09.

If Scotland can't control its immigration, how may people there

:49:10.:49:12.

are in the country, and we grow at a slower rate in the rest of the UK,

:49:13.:49:16.

we shouldn't be punished for that. No detriment principle is really

:49:17.:49:19.

important. It's not just about today but about five-years' time. I

:49:20.:49:23.

support her right and her goal to get the best possible deal for

:49:24.:49:26.

Scotland. And you'd be prepared to see this collapse to see the talks

:49:27.:49:30.

collapse, to see further devolved powers come to Scotland on the basis

:49:31.:49:35.

of this, you don't get what you say you share with Nicola Sturgeon? I

:49:36.:49:39.

want the best possible deal but there must be a deal. So you are

:49:40.:49:43.

prepared to make a compromise? I didn't say that. I would really like

:49:44.:49:47.

to see a deal before the Scottish Parliament elections because I for

:49:48.:49:50.

one would like to advocate how to use these new tax and welfare powers

:49:51.:49:55.

in Labour's manifesto for the next parliament but of its possible to do

:49:56.:49:57.

that before Parliament dissolves, I would like all the parties to get

:49:58.:50:02.

round the table, keep talking right up until polling day. Nobody should

:50:03.:50:08.

walk away from this to go Chez Chez. We must get the best possible deal

:50:09.:50:13.

for Scotland. It's great to see the SNP arguing to retain the Barnett

:50:14.:50:16.

formula. This is about redistributing resources across the

:50:17.:50:19.

whole of the UK. That's what people voted for in the referendum.

:50:20.:50:23.

Scottish Labour has proposed increasing income tax in Scotland.

:50:24.:50:27.

Some people would say that's madness. Any political party

:50:28.:50:29.

proposing an income tax rise doesn't win an election. The Scottish

:50:30.:50:35.

Parliament tomorrow will vote on its budget, the budget advocated by the

:50:36.:50:38.

SNP contains hundreds of millions of pounds of cuts to vital public

:50:39.:50:42.

services and education. They argue it because they just haven't got

:50:43.:50:45.

enough money to actually do what they would like to do so there have

:50:46.:50:49.

to be some cuts somewhere, better than increasing taxes on vulnerable

:50:50.:50:52.

and put people. We have protected vulnerable people. But we have been

:50:53.:50:58.

told the decades that the Scottish Parliament, the institution itself,

:50:59.:51:01.

would allow people in Scotland to take different choices to

:51:02.:51:04.

Westminster. Nicola Sturgeon, her whole adult life, her whole

:51:05.:51:09.

political career, has argued that more powers means fewer cuts. I'm

:51:10.:51:12.

saying we now have the power in Scotland to set income tax. This is

:51:13.:51:17.

the Scottish rate of income tax. It is the first time we've been able to

:51:18.:51:21.

set this rate. I'm advocating that we should set it 1p higher than

:51:22.:51:25.

George Osborne and in so doing, we don't have to make these cuts. For

:51:26.:51:29.

the first time, the Scottish Parliament has a serious power, a

:51:30.:51:34.

serious choice to take a different path for Scotland than Tory

:51:35.:51:37.

austerity. Is it working? The polls don't seem to be demonstrating that

:51:38.:51:39.

people are flocking to Scottish Labour as a result of that policy.

:51:40.:51:43.

There was a poll in the daily record that showed that 48% people in

:51:44.:51:47.

Scotland support the policy... They support the policy but are they

:51:48.:51:51.

supporting Labour? It is early days but I'm putting forward a very clear

:51:52.:51:55.

anti-austerity message. No longer will the Scottish Parliament just be

:51:56.:51:59.

a conveyor belt for Tory cuts. The Labour Party in Scotland is the only

:52:00.:52:02.

party with a clear anti-austerity message and I think that's what the

:52:03.:52:06.

vast majority of voters in Scotland want to hear. You say that but they

:52:07.:52:10.

are supporting the policy. People did support the individual policies

:52:11.:52:14.

of Ed Miliband - the energy freeze was popular for a time - but it

:52:15.:52:17.

didn't do him any good in the general election. They may support

:52:18.:52:21.

the policy but where is the evidence that people are supporting Scottish

:52:22.:52:25.

Labour? It is in that poll... For the policy. And the collection

:52:26.:52:33.

campaign has just started. The SNP are considerably ahead of Labour and

:52:34.:52:37.

it has been that way for some time. This problems of the Scottish Labour

:52:38.:52:40.

Party didn't happen overnight and won't be fixed overnight or by one

:52:41.:52:49.

person. The SNP was polling at 53%, Labour 22%. Is this some ploy for

:52:50.:52:54.

you to have an eye-catching policy to try to differentiate yourself

:52:55.:52:58.

from the SNP against whom you are making no dent at all? I totally

:52:59.:53:02.

believe that this is the right thing to do. I think the best thing any

:53:03.:53:07.

government can do in this modern age is investing its people. That's the

:53:08.:53:10.

only way we can compete it for future jobs and the skills race

:53:11.:53:13.

around the world. If we don't do that, we will pay a huge economic

:53:14.:53:16.

price and I'm saying that faced with a choice between using the powers of

:53:17.:53:21.

the Scottish Parliament to try a different track from Tory austerity

:53:22.:53:24.

or to try to pass that on, I choose to use those powers. What does

:53:25.:53:28.

success, in your eyes, look like for Scottish Labour in May? I've made a

:53:29.:53:32.

very clear plan to review the Scottish Labour Party, so people

:53:33.:53:36.

have to have a much clearer sense of who we are and what we stand for.

:53:37.:53:39.

The tax policy does that. I've talked about bringing forward new

:53:40.:53:43.

faces and we've just completed our selections. I've talked about

:53:44.:53:45.

renewing the Labour family itself. So why would you be a member of the

:53:46.:53:50.

Labour Party? What would be your benchmark for Scottish Labour? Will

:53:51.:53:53.

you be second or will you be pushed a third? I don't believe for a

:53:54.:53:58.

second that the Tories are going to come second in this election because

:53:59.:54:02.

Ruth Davidson is a Tory, just like George Osborne, just like David

:54:03.:54:06.

Cameron. She's advocated 1980s tax policies. She has no idea for the

:54:07.:54:10.

future. They're not that far behind you. She says that she would be a

:54:11.:54:15.

stronger opposition to the SNP, yet tomorrow she is going to vote for

:54:16.:54:19.

their budget. How can they possibly be a strong opposition in that

:54:20.:54:22.

context? Although you are standing with a flustered when it comes to

:54:23.:54:25.

these go Chez Chez on the fiscal framework. That is fundamentally the

:54:26.:54:34.

right thing to do with... How many constituencies will you win? I don't

:54:35.:54:39.

have that as a metric in my head because my job to review the

:54:40.:54:42.

Scottish Labour Party is far bigger than what happens in May. It is more

:54:43.:54:46.

fundamental than how many seats we have. When people cast their vote in

:54:47.:54:50.

the Hollywood elections, do you want them to think of you and Scottish

:54:51.:54:54.

Labour or the vision Jeremy Corbyn is advocating for Westminster? Me.

:54:55.:54:58.

I'm the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. It is my job to renew

:54:59.:55:02.

its fortunes. I can't do that single-handedly or on my own but I

:55:03.:55:05.

am in charge and I'm putting forward a strategy. It is my shadow cabinet

:55:06.:55:09.

that will put forward the manifesto. I will be the one out on street

:55:10.:55:13.

corners campaigning. As he convinced you that he could be Prime Minister?

:55:14.:55:17.

Jeremy Corbyn and I get on very well. Has he convinced you he could

:55:18.:55:22.

be premised? I believe very much that he wants to do that and he is

:55:23.:55:25.

driven by his principles. I am protocol to my friend. Do you

:55:26.:55:29.

believe he can do it? Yes, I believe he can.

:55:30.:55:38.

Now, we began the show saying that our guest of the day,

:55:39.:55:41.

Kezia Dugdale, has one of the toughest jobs in British

:55:42.:55:43.

politics as leader of the Labour Party in Scotland.

:55:44.:55:46.

Well, perhaps for that reason, it's also one of the jobs

:55:47.:55:48.

with the highest turnover in British politics -

:55:49.:55:50.

she is, in fact, the eighth person to lead the party

:55:51.:55:53.

in the Scottish Parliament since devolution,

:55:54.:55:54.

That's as many people as the Lib Dems have MPs.

:55:55.:55:58.

It's so many, we thought, it would be hard for anyone

:55:59.:56:00.

to remember them all and put them in the right order.

:56:01.:56:03.

But we've decided to let Kezia have a go anyway,

:56:04.:56:05.

I am here to help. I noticed you are looking worried so we are going to

:56:06.:56:11.

help you out straightaway because of course one Hollywood parliament came

:56:12.:56:13.

into existence, the first first Minister and previously Scottish

:56:14.:56:15.

Secretary was Donald Dewar. There he is. Kezia, a bit of fun, mainly for

:56:16.:56:18.

us, not you. Who came next? Henry McLeish. Straight out of the book.

:56:19.:56:25.

Obviously after the tragic death of Donald Dewar. Henry McLeish does not

:56:26.:56:30.

last long but can you remember why? A fiddle? Office gate they called it

:56:31.:56:37.

in the press. Early on, those big, big characters in Scottish Labour...

:56:38.:56:43.

You had a peek there. Who is next? Jack McConnell. Jack McConnell! What

:56:44.:56:52.

happens in 2007? We lose the Scottish Parliament election by one

:56:53.:56:55.

seat, arguably 40 votes in North Ayrshire and Aaron. So Jack

:56:56.:57:00.

McConnell goes. Who takes over? Wendy Alexander. Wendy Alexander

:57:01.:57:06.

does indeed. Do you remember what she said after she had to go, about

:57:07.:57:10.

doing the role? It was a personal thing about it. No, I don't. She

:57:11.:57:16.

said she'd regretted doing it quite so early because she had young

:57:17.:57:19.

children at the time. Who came after her? Iain Gray. Iain Gray did

:57:20.:57:25.

indeed. He might pop up later on. Who was after Iain Gray? Johann

:57:26.:57:31.

Lamont. That is the only pause you had. I'll give you that. That takes

:57:32.:57:36.

us right into this sort of period here and she's not going to stay on

:57:37.:57:41.

there, is she? She doesn't stay there long because of the Scottish

:57:42.:57:45.

independence vote. So who is next? I've got some tricky ones for you

:57:46.:57:47.

never stop those of the deputies? I've got some tricky ones for you

:57:48.:57:52.

Jim Murphy was the next leader and I was the deputy. That's true but

:57:53.:57:57.

there was two months of him, Anas Sarwar. Then Jim Murphy, of course.

:57:58.:58:02.

I said he might come back. There is one more before you.

:58:03.:58:08.

I said he might come back. There is me? Goodness me! Iain Gray

:58:09.:58:08.

I said he might come back. There is one more time. Our point being,

:58:09.:58:13.

there has been a lot of them. Is this a factor

:58:14.:58:18.

there has been a lot of them. Is its majority, or is it a symptom of

:58:19.:58:20.

there has been a lot of them. Is the SNP taking over? And, of course,

:58:21.:58:22.

you at the end. How long will you last? I think

:58:23.:58:28.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:29.:58:31.

The armoured car. Do you need that when you are campaigning in

:58:32.:58:49.

Scotland? Is that why you chose it? That is the right answer.

:58:50.:58:52.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:58:53.:58:56.

of Prime Minister's Questions - do join us then.

:58:57.:59:03.

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