29/02/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Would leaving the EU lead to a decade of uncertainty?


That's what the Government claims and it's released a series


of documents to prove it, warning of protracted negotiations


on a number of issues including the status of British citizens


Vote Leave dismisses the claims as scaremongering.


Nearly a million jobs to go in the retail sector over the next


decade, according to industry experts.


Our Ellie discovers she's a bit of a book worm as she delves


into the contents of the House of Commons library.


And our Adam's been investigating famous political meal deals.


Europe was on the menu here at the Dorchester Hotel


during the 1975 referendum because Labour and Tory inners


would meet here for secret breakfasts.


It was a serve-yourself buffet, so there would be no waiters,


All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, two


Former Environment Secretary, Conservative MP, Owen Patterson,


and former Shadow Europe Minister, Labour's Emma Reynolds.


Now first today, a touch of glamour and to the Oscars which turned


Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your host,


Man, I counted at least 15 black people on that montage!


Well, I'm here at the Academy Awards.


Otherwise known as the white people's choice awards.


You realise, if they nominated host, I wouldn't even get this job!


Thank you all for this amazing award tonight.


Let us not take this planet for granted.


I stand here tonight as a proud gay man and I hope we can all stand


This year, in the in memoriam package, there's just going to be


black people that were shot by the cops on their way


# Till it happens to you, you won't know how I feel #.


Do you embrace this new political age at the Oscars? Why not. Chris


Rock is an incredibly funny comedian, I heard somebody say this


morning who had been there that some of the jokes were a bit close to the


bone and they felt you couldn't laugh and you felt that just


watching him. But why shouldn't movie stars and others did out


messages about climate change, gay rights, child abuse? It is very


powerful because people looked up to them in this age of celebrity. But


it made you feel uncomfortable at that sort of event to have those


quite hard-core messages, certainly that sort of event to have those


from this rock? I had not seen it direct like that -- from Chris Rock.


It might have an impact on the people making films.


It might have an impact on the people you choose the Oscars only


work on what they are given, it is not just those in the judging panel


scum it is those who put the films together so it might have an impact


across the industry -- so it is those. There might be people who


just say these are glib comments, they don't


just say these are glib comments, anything serious. Why shouldn't they


have a view on politics? One of the reasons it has become more political


is because they're obviously weren't any lack nominees for the second


year running. Idris Elba came to Parliament a few weeks ago and it


relates to what Owen was saying, the people writing scripts and films


should think about creating roles that are not just for white people.


And he was saying that the problem was getting these roles. To break


through the glass ceiling it takes people making the films to start


thinking about these things. Let's see if it changes next year.


The question for today is, who is advising Jeremy Corbyn's


Former Greek Finance Minister, Yanis Varoufakis?


Or Chinese Finance Minister Lou Jiwei?


At the end of the show, Emma and Owen will give us


This morning the Government warned that a vote to leave to EU


could lead to a "decade of uncertainty".


The Government's first official analysis claims the UK would be


unlikely to negotiate its exit within the two-year timetable


and that it could take the UK ten years to extricate itself.


It suggests other countries could push for concessions if the UK


It says a new agreement on trade might require ratification by other


The report claims that this uncertainty would have an impact


on "financial markets, investment, and the value of the pound".


It also warns that the rights of 2 million British expats to work


and access services in EU countries might not be guaranteed.


But Commons leader Chris Grayling, who is campaigning for Britain


to leave the EU, said the ten-year claim was "ludicrous".


He accused the Government of running a "relentless campaign of fear".


Do you agree with that assessment, a ten year period of uncertainty if we


vote to leave? The truth is we don't know. Switzerland are still trying


to negotiate better access to the single market which they don't have


that unfettered access, being outside. They had to negotiate all


sorts of agreements with different member states. I think it is in our


interest to stay in, economically, and I think it is right to point at


the risk of leaving. I think the government is right to do an


analysis of what it might mean and I think there would be a lot of


uncertainty. The pound last week dropped to its lowest value for


seven years because of the uncertainty of the referendum and


fears of the UK perhaps leaving and that underlines what might happen.


One of the sections in the assessment is uncertainty during the


negotiating period which could be two years after the date of the


referendum result. It could have an impact on financial markets,


investment and the value of the pound and on the wide economy. Is


there anything in that that is not true? I think this operation via is


reaching hysterical heights. But is it not true? On day one, nothing


changes, we are still full members on June 24 and any sensible


government would begin a programme of serious discussion with our


neighbours as to what the final outcome might be. There would be


months of negotiation going through carefully what sort of arrangement


we would end up with. At that point I would suggest, if you trigger


article 50 which gives you a legally binding two-year period, but the


point is, if our neighbours are as awful as the government say, why are


we staying in anyway? Our neighbours do huge trade with a scum there are


5 million Europeans whose job depend on sales to the UK, a million


Germans alone. We send 2.6 million car engines are broad and most come


back in the finished products. They would want to do a deal. Angela


Merkel will not want to infuriate German workers whose jobs depend on


it. Everything continues, the current rules continue, we continue


as full members and all existing treaties continue. If you take


Czechoslovakia with the velvet divorce, that went off smoothly and


there is no reason that should not happen. We will come onto the sort


of deal the UK could negotiate but it is true that if on June 24 Brit


in notifies and triggers Article 50, from that point nothing changes --


Britain. The pre-existing treaties and obligations will not cease until


the new negotiation is underway. The best way to keep those conditions is


to stay in. There is a big inconsistency on the Eurosceptics


part. They say that if we stay in we will always be losers even though


your own longest serving Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher forged


ahead with the single market, one of the most successful things about the


EU, and Tony Blair created the conditions for enlargement and


pushed ahead successfully for that. Somehow the Eurosceptics are


pessimistic about our role in the EU, working together, when we are


often the winners. But if we were to come out, they think they could have


everything they want without having to abide by any of the rules or


conditions. Norway abides by all of the rules and they are a rule taker,


they abide by the roles of the single market, by the free movement


of people and they had to pay into the EU budget to get access to the


single market. Let's not pretend that this would be a cost free


option. Not to say that we could not negotiate a better deal if that was


the case. Let's look at the issue uncertainty. Already, as Emma


alluded to, the financial markets are jittery about Brexit and the


pound did slump against the dollar last week. It could also lead to


businesses, some of whom have stated they would hold onto investment


decisions and wait until that two-year period was over before


deciding where to perhaps build their next factory or invest in


another company. That would lead to uncertainty. It would be helpful if


the government did not stir up the uncertainty. The fact is, everybody


should reassure all of the world markets that, during the negotiation


period, first of all informal and then formal under Article 50,


everything carries on as normal. But nobody will know what will happen


after two years and nobody will know what the deal is and you can see why


businesses would hold onto their money. Yes, but it is clear to us on


our side that we have been told world open to us. We already do. No


we don't. On the World Trade Organisation we have won 28th of a


seat represented by eight sweeties -- a Swedish psychiatric nurse.


If you take trade, tiny countries like Iceland and New Zealand had


direct trade deals with China, we would open up the whole world. The


opportunities are enormous. And where Emma must not let slip is that


the EU is effectively leaving us, they will form this new entity


around the Eurozone. The idea that it is a cosy club is not true, we


will be left on the outside of this with some ill-defined associate


status. That's rubbish. There are nine member states who don't have


the euro, we are not the only country, we are one of nine. And we


are an integral part of the single market. Again, pessimism from the


Eurosceptics about what we can do while remaining in the EU and


working with our partners. Why do EU leaders have an interest in making


life more difficult for the UK? Surely they would get on with that


negotiating period and set up new trade agreements and it could be


liberating in the way that Iain Duncan Smith has described. I think


we are more prosperous and stronger by staying. You don't know that. How


do you know? We are negotiating more ambitious trade deals with big


economies around the world. The US government has suggested they are


not that interested in a bilateral trade deal with us because they are


more interested in doing a trade deal with the biggest single market


in the world, the EU. We have more clout and power in the world by


being a member of the EU than if we were on the outside. Isn't it true


that both sides are scaremongering? Both camps are setting out to people


their doom and do not -- disaster scenarios if we stay or leave. This


idea of negative campaigning only on one side is not the case. They will


form this entity around the Eurozone, we will be excluded and


what Mervyn King said was that we are wise to be well away from the


Eurozone. It is not clear what status we would have. If we let them


get on with the political and judicial arrangements, get out the


back and have a totally new arrangement based on trade and


cooperation, the world is open to us. We would read galvanised free


trade with the Anglo sphere. There are large number of people in


America who would like to deal with us on sectors like automobiles and


drugs and issues like that. It is still the case we trade more


with the rest of the EU than any other country in the world. This is


a false choice that the Eurosceptics like to bandy about, that somehow we


have to choose between trading with the rest of the EU or the rest of


the world and that is rubbish. We have the best of both worlds at the


moment. We trade closely with our European partners, 47% of our trade


goes with them and the rest is with the rest of the world. We do very


well thank you very much. So you are happy with all the controls? Yes, I


thought the Prime Minister did a decent job in his renegotiation


because he clarified some of the issues around the Eurozone, the


relationship with the non-Eurozone and I stress again we are not the


only country in the EU not having the euro. He clarified those


arrangements and some things to do with immigration as well. They will


be pleased to have your support I am sure! Do you think Eurosceptic


ministers should have access to civil service papers? I think there


is a huge problem with the government taking a position which I


agree with which is that we should remain as part of a reformed EU but


at the same time suspending collective responsibility. There is


also a huge problem with David Cameron rolling over again and again


and again just to please the Eurosceptics which is why we are


here right now. In some ways you have got your way by having


collective responsibility abandoned but now you want access to the


papers which are supposedly only the ones which actually refer to the EU


referendum directly, you cannot have your cake and eat it? IC ten years


of opportunity, the EU is lousy at negotiating trade deals, they asked


all budding around with America, China and India are in the pipeline.


Why is it countries like Iceland and New Zealand can do direct deals with


China? I see this as an opportunity to open up a whole world, we have


relations in south-east Asia, we would actually read galvanise world


free trade. Part of the reason people are drowning in the


Mediterranean is because of the breakdown in free trade because...


Blocks like the EU are rotten at organising these deals. On the


papers? It is nonsense and eight breach of the Venice commission


which is endorsed by well-known democracies like Russia where the


government is supposed to be neutral in constitutional referendums. It is


quite wrong that a senior civil servant should be telling ministers


who take a different line on the European issue that they don't have


access to papers. Someone must have the same access to all the papers in


my old department. The majority of Defra's activity has been handed to


the European institutions, agriculture, food, drink,


environment. It is vital George has access to up-to-date data and the


latest developments. What will you do if that continues and he can't


get access? I will raise it with the Prime Minister in questions on


Wednesday and there are other members of Parliament who are


exercised by this. My worry is that if it is seen that the government is


trying to cheat people will not regard the referendum as legitimate


and that is a danger. It must be seen to be fought their lead from


the beginning. We see this again and again, the Eurosceptics moan and


bang on about process because, this is an insurance claim for them, if


they lose the referendum they will claim it is not fair so they can


have another one and if they lose that one they will claim it is not


fair so they can have another. It's such a predictable pattern. It is


all about process, why don't we talk about the big arguments which is


what people are really worried about. If the result is that Britain


stays with due accent did? We won the argument on Perda. The


government backed off and I think they were right to do and they


listened and I hope they will listen to this issue on giving their access


to ministers. It is vital the public see this to be fair. We will have to


stop it there, you are on the hob programme. -- the whole programme.


Well, a little earlier, Scotland's First Minister,


Nicola Sturgeon, has been laying out the SNP's arguments for remaining


In a speech in central London, she pledged to lead a "progressive


I hope that the debate that we engage in over the next few


months is a thoroughly positive debate.


Because one of the undoubted lessons of the Scottish experience


is that a miserable, negative, fear-based campaign saw


the No campaign in the Scottish referendum lose, over


the course of the campaign, a 20-point lead.


And I don't have to point out to anybody here that the In campaign


in this referendum doesn't have a 20-point lead to squander.


And we're joined now by the SNP MP, Stephen Gethins, and by Ukip's only


MEP in Scotland, David Coburn, who's in our Edinburgh studio.


Welcome to both of you, first of all it is clear that you and the


government take a different approach certainly rhetorically in making the


case for the UK to remain in the EU. Do you think it is project fear or


Project reality that the government is indulging in? We have been


concerned by some of the messaging, in Scotland the project here element


did not work, the point the First Minister was making was that the no


campaign squandered the 20 point lead. They won by a lot less and we


saw what happened after so it is important to have a positive


campaign and it has to be said that that goes for all of us. You turn


people off if you try to scaremonger your way to victory. What are you


saying that is so positive that doesn't indulge in this negative


campaign? I think it's a fantastic opportunity to talk about the


benefits, we don't often hear the benefits of the EU and you get


government is trying to pretend Brussels has made them do things


when they signed up to them a long time ago. This government have not


voted against the proposal since they came in. Let's talk about


workers rights, paternity rights, the action we are taking on the


environment and the economic benefit as well. David Coburn, you have a


difficult job on your hands I suggest because 60% of voters


broadly speaking want to stay in the EU and you don't have a lot of


political allies on this subject in Scotland? That is nonsense! The


Guardian came out and said 60% of Scots were Eurosceptic. 60% of Scots


were Eurosceptic and wanted to pull out of the EU? That is what the


Guardian said so it must be true. Ukip and Scotland, we are expected


to get seven MSP 's according to a daily record poll so that is not too


bad, I think the Scots are a lot more Eurosceptic than everyone tries


to make out. The Scottish National party are not a Scottish National


party they are European party. If they want more power in the Scottish


parliament nothing will give Scotland more power than exiting the


European Union. All the fishing, agriculture, industry will all come


back to the Scottish Parliament and we will be able to get the 200 mile


fishing limit back which the SNP don't seem to want which is very odd


for a National party of Scotland. That is a positive case, you could


have more access to potential markets if you came out of the EU?


To pick up on the opinion polls, they have consistently shown that


Scots are in favour of staying in the EU. I'm not saying we don't have


a job to do but they have consistently shown that. On the


issue of more powers we have questioned the government about


which new powers Scotland would see and they have not told us any. They


come back to London. Finally, on fishing, and this is another example


where the member state hide behind the European Union, on fishing it


was the Conservative government in the 70s which described Scotland's


fishing industry as expendable, not the European Union. Which laws would


come back specifically to the Scottish Government? Again it


depends who has won, we want fishing brought back to Scotland, the 200


mile limit. It is a great business for Scotland and at the moment the


Spanish are looting our seas and making a fortune. We can do that


ourselves here in Scotland and that is much better for the Scottish


economy. I don't understand how the Scottish Nationalists can't


understand that. Is this the argument you will use to try to


convince the Scots? Absolutely but they have picked it up for


themselves, they are not daft. We would not have the trouble we are


having with the steel industry if it wasn't for expensive rules by the


European Union about closing places, we have expensive... Chinese


imports? That is also down to the EU cause in terms of tariffs, they have


let them dump steel in Scotland. Why don't we have our own trade treaty


with the United States? Instead of dividing by 27 different people it


would just be four nations, what is wrong with that? Two of SNP MEPs


were not present when we were voting on the T-tip. We get a lot of


e-mails on that, that American companies will be able to get


contracts and get rid of workers rights and conditions, would not


expect the SNP to sign up to something like that? No, and the


First Minister this morning expressed her significant concerns


about T-tip. The very question that you would trust the London


government on workers rights over Brussels is an anomaly. It was


Brussels who made progress on things like maternity and paternity rights


and various other workers rights. The trade unionist act will show you


what a London government would do. The idea that working cooperatively


with Brussels is worse than leaving London in charge is a myth. If this


is such a big issue as you and your colleagues have said why don't you


share a platform of David Cameron and the Conservatives? This is


beyond party politics. Because we want to win the referendum in


Scotland. The Tories had their worst resort in Scotland since 1865, David


Cameron is hugely unpopular. My resort in Scotland since 1865, David


message to Mr Cameron would be if you want the Scottish devote to stay


in the best thing to do is stay away.


in the best thing to do is stay can expect the SNP to call another


Scottish independence referendum, immediately? This could have been


avoided. That is not what I asked. immediately? This could have been


time, this is something we try to avoid,


time, this is something we try to point this morning that this is not


the circumstances we wanted to point this morning that this is not


the UK votes to leave and Scotland votes to stay you would have


the UK votes to leave and Scotland be an equal


the UK votes to leave and Scotland those circumstances there will be


calls for a second independent sport. How soon do you think? There


will be calls and we will take it one referendum at a time but there


will have been a breakdown in the relationship. Is pushing the


Scotland out of the UK an acceptable price to leave the EU? It's not


going to happen. Just because people may or may not like the European


Union does not mean they will want to leave the UK. The two things are


completely unrelated. I tell you something, there is no difference in


Scotland and England, I knocked on as many doors north and south of the


border and the person in Glasgow has the same view as the person and


Birmingham. There is no difference. Far be it from me to bring facts


Birmingham. There is no difference. into it... We like facts! Every


repeatable poll has shown that Scots are consistently more in


repeatable poll has shown that Scots meaning in the EU than elsewhere.


There has been a variation. There has, but significantly higher than


the 50-50 we see in the rest of the UK. That is not to say we are taking


it for granted. Before I let you go I need to ask about the Ukip plan or


proposal are blaming the EU for restricting the power of toasters,


is that still the case? Apparently I managed to stop some legislation


until after the Brexit. They are holding back the legislation until


after the referendum in order to not terrified British voters. So I am


one of the few MEPs who have achieved something, I stopped


something! Except, is it true? It is and humour is a dangerous thing and


I'm afraid the European Union suffer from a lack of it. On that note of


positive, upbeat campaign, thank you both.


So, in a week expected to be dominated by events surrounding


Later today, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is expected


to address the Parliamentary Labour Party for the first time this year.


On Tuesday, the Government is due to publish the latest incarnation


of the Investigatory Powers Bill, the so-called 'Snoopers Charter'.


On Wednesday, David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn face each other


across the Despatch Box for their weekly dose of PMQs.


On Thursday, the British Chambers of Commerce holds its annual


Key speakers include the Labour leader and the German Finance


And on Friday, the Scottish Tories' Spring Conference kicks off


Leader Ruth Davidson will speak, possibly joined by David Cameron.


Let's talk now to Caroline Wheeler from the Sunday Express


Welcome to both of you. The first time Jeremy Corbyn addresses the


Parliamentary Labour Party and we are in March almost. White has it


taken him so long and what can he expect? He was meant to turn up last


week but pulled out at the last moment because of the bait on Europe


and the statement the Prime Minister brought back from Brussels -- the


debate. The belief among Labour MPs, and with some justification, is that


it is a pretty awful gathering for Jeremy Corbyn whenever he goes.


There are a large number of Labour MPs who like to make their is like


him known at these gatherings. The contents leaks almost instantly and


I think it is fair to say that he likes almost anything else other


than the Parliamentary Labour Party meetings on a Monday night. It is


not surprising he doesn't turn up. I don't blame him. Caroline, the issue


of access to papers during this EU referendum. We are expecting a


question asked as to why Jeremy Hayward banned ministers having


access to these papers. How will this play out? It will be tricky,


number ten will say they have done nothing wrong and this is standard


policy and the civil servants can only do things that support their


position and that is to stay in Europe. But there has been a lot of


criticism saying it is going beyond the remit of the realm and that


Jeremy Hayward has encouraged them to spy on ministers to say whether


they will come out for Brexit or not and to restrict certain papers that


even people like Iain Duncan Smith can have access to. There has been a


big ding-dong about this and it will go off at the committee hearing this


afternoon when he will give evidence to the committee led by Bernard


Jenkin is who is an ardent Eurosceptic, to try to somehow


justify this position. How difficult will it be to keep both sides of the


Tory party together? What is most striking in their debate is you now


have somewhere in the region of 140 Tory MPs defying David Cameron and


coming out for Brexit. Those numbers are much higher than anticipated by


Downing Street in October or never that when it seemed to be closer to


70 or 100. We are not quite at civil war time yet. The Tory party feels


like a number of long-standing friends at the top of the party have


had a big row and quite how that trickles down to the rest of the


party remains to be seen. David Cameron is more interested in


winning the referendum than holding the party together and perhaps that


calculus has changed in the last month. There is less talk of that


and more of just needing to win and convincingly, whatever that means


for the futures of Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and others. Let's


talk about the different policy issue, that of surveillance powers


and the investigatory Powers Bill. Has it been changed dramatically by


Theresa May before being presented to the House of Commons? If you read


some of the coverage of this, the suggestion is that it hasn't been


changed that dramatically after the intervention of three separate


committees which raised serious questions. This will be another


question between those who are on the side of civil liberties and


those who say we should do everything in our powers to protect


Britain and give them as much power as possible to protect them from any


cyber or terrorist attack. Europe seems to come into other thing we do


and there is some suggestion that this bill is being brought back at a


time when most of the party is distracted with other things so


there is a big question about the response when it is published, we


believe tomorrow. Will there be more support for it? It is a numbers


game. The problem with the bill before is that it wasn't clear they


would get it through Parliament. It seems that some of the Northern


Ireland parties are likely to vote in favour. Labour are not completely


against it, Andy Burnham has been flip-flopping more times on this


than in the leadership election! But not every Labour MP will vote to


oppose it so with that backdrop it feels hard to call it as a definite


loss for Theresa May. The basics are the same. It feels like they could


have a good shot at it. Thank you very much.


Want to know how our guests today Owen and Emma know so much


and are able to answer any question with absolute authority?


It's because they are MPs and spend lots of time in the House of Commons


Not only does the library have books but it has some very swotty research


staff who pull together briefings on every subject from local


government funding in the North East to household recycling in the UK.


Our Ellie went down to see them at work, including one librarian


who's retiring today, after 44 years.


Until 1966 it was the Speaker's private library.


John Prince fell in love with this library when he started working


Apart from a handful of librarians and Parliamentary staff,


and me for the morning, only 650 people are really


The library stocks any topic that might be of value or use to an MP


There are around 40,000 books in here and it has got some other


cool stuff too, like this really old phone.


So, John, it's not all about the books then in here?


No, we have one or two other items, including this Parson's-Sloper


interphone which dates from the 1920s when this room


was the Speaker's private library and he could use this to communicate


with other parts of his official residence here.


There are also pamphlets dating back to 1559 and even some


They are the oldest things we've got, they are very lucky


We know we have had them as a distinct collection


But this is a working library with working technology.


There are a lot of fantastic books here but really very


Much more it is about the information that we do publish


online, but the public really need to know that MPs


And, of course, it's difficult for them to be experts in everything


so the big thing we do is brief MPs on the bills


Parliament, on big issues, topical issues of relevance.


Albert Einstein once said, the only thing you absolutely have


to know is the location of the library.


And joining us now is the Conservative MP


Michael Fabricant, who sits on the House


of Commons Administration Committee, the body responsible for overseeing


And a lovely library it is. It is beautiful and we are not allowed to


take people in normally. 40,000 books. What is the fiction section


like? Not good! You might have to go to Boots! Don't petitions want to


read something other than factual stuff? They might want a Jackie


Collins or something. You might be able to request that. There is an


extensive magazine section and it is a good place to go to do research


and very good if you want to just chill out. Do MPs go? They go for


all different purposes some to use the computers you have seen, others


to do research, others to have research provided for them and also,


for example, my office is some distance from the Palace of


Westminster, it is in what used to be the old Scotland Yard will bring,


and I can go on the computers there. Do you go? Less since I moved


offices. I used to use it a per Mendis amount and the staff are


William -- a tremendous amount. The staff are brilliant. Mainly I ask


them to do research work, they are incredibly quick and thorough. You


can ask for a policy document on anything? Absolutely. And it has


real clout and you can anything? Absolutely. And it has


make a speech and you are listened anything? Absolutely. And it has


to if you refer to that library. And anything? Absolutely. And it has


everybody does listen to it when you use it. Do you go? Yes it is a vital


resource for backbenchers and opposition MPs. I used it in housing


because you can ask them to look into all sorts of things. I often go


newspapers when there is a gap between a meeting. I will go and


newspapers when there is a gap look at a


newspapers when there is a gap haven't had a chance to read, that


is useful as well. I must confess, I only go if I'd been in it! How


narcissistic! You haven't got a book at home that is mounting up huge


fines? Absolutely not! I behave very correctly. Do you take books out? I


have but I tend to over recess. It is quite difficult to find the time


to read a good blog while we are in session. When I take them out it


tends to be over the recess periods. Is it worth keeping them? If MPs are


using it as a research facility, wouldn't it be better to auction off


some of those and help George Osborne pay the deficit? Some of


them are held by the British likely and elsewhere because they are


incredibly historical. -- British library. There are a lot of


biographies, there is a colleague who is almost


biographies, there is a colleague around with books under


biographies, there is a colleague is always borrowing from the


library. But I wanted to say, like Owen, I am very sceptical


library. But I wanted to say, like economic grounds and I will give


library. But I wanted to say, like an example of how the library was


incredibly useful. We were saying that if we left the EU we would have


a camp like the Jungle in the middle of Kent. I contacted the library


because it is governed by this treaty, they sent me the treaty and


because it is governed by this a summary saying it is all a load of


balderdash and has nothing to do with the EU whatsoever! I knew we


would get back to the EU! Because it came from the House of Commons


library, people not only leave it, they know it to be true and


ministers noted to be true. What about the atmosphere in the library


itself? The furniture and trappings, is it like old members club? A bit.


Some people might go there for a nap as well! Have you done that? I can


categorically state... It is a bit like an old university library. The


further down you go, the quieter it debts. Are there many people in


that. -- it gets. You have different times and different often it is


people like myself who not only research done but who want to get to


a computer and catch up with e-mails. It is packed during the


day. On Thursday night I happened to be late at the House of Commons and


the house had risen and I had been entertaining people from my


constituency. It was about ten o'clock and there was somebody


snoozing, the young MP who had missed his train. He might still be


there! I don't know if he was planning to stay the night but he


was in a comfortable armchair and why not? I am pleased to hear it is


serving all sorts of uses. Thank you for coming in.


Britain's retailers predict that almost a million jobs in the sector


will disappear by 2025, that's about a third


Retailers employ one in six people in the UK,


and the sector accounts for about a tenth of the UK economy.


Let's talk now to Victoria Fritz from the BBC's business unit who's


What is happening? The big issue is all about smartphones and tablet


computers, consumers in the UK have got used to using them, they are


used to going online and trying to find a cheaper deal. So we are


seeing changing tastes. On the other side of the occasion, if you are a


start-up business for example it is cheaper and easier and faster to set


up your business online and you have reduced overheads, you are not


paying business rates or for staff in shops. We have seen supply change


as well. Talking to retailers it seems to ring true, we have heard


from the chairman of Debenhams who says he thinks we will see fewer


workers in the future and people like Tesco's are saying that given


the competition in the market at the moment there will be a real change


towards this and everyone is trying to push online. Is this not a


continuation of a gradual decline or is this a sudden cliff edge? The big


difference is that the official estimates put the numbers of jobs


lost much lower so this is quite striking today. I think what is


interesting is what will happen with the national living wage, this is


the new name for the minimum wage which is coming into effect next


month. It will be interesting to see what happens to the wage bill, will


we see retailers respond to that by cutting the number of people they


employ overall are whether or not we see a quick ship to automation and


online retail. Well, Helen Dickinson


from the British Retail Consortium Listening to the figures, what will


you do to protect employees? What is striking about this report is that


we are already seeing a fall in the number of people working in the


industry over the last couple of years and what we will see is


perhaps that accelerate as we go forward as the equation between


technology and labour cost has shifted on the back of the living


wage. So the aspiration absolutely is that although there will be fewer


jobs there are better jobs in the industry. Much more focus on


customer service and a different profile in terms of the digital and


physical and how it works together. Did you see this government policy


of the national living wage increasing by the amount it is


having these sorts of consequences? It will have a knock-on impact on


retail and hospitality, on the care industry for instance. But I agree,


what you will see is jobs will move, I was in Shropshire on Friday and


they are looking for more jobs and activity in the post office, it is a


key resource. People go there for money or physical deliveries, so you


will see a growth in different areas. There will be different jobs.


Before I came in I saw a Twitter message saying Anderson will start


delivering meat, fruit and vegetables -- Amazon. Hasn't the


industry adapted already, you must have known about this, you had a


report in 2014 saying 60% of jobs were at risk from high automation


and exacerbated by the national living wage. The industry has to


keep up with the times. Absolutely, we have adaptable retailers who will


respond. What we wanted to highlight in the report was questions about


how this will impact in different parts of the country and different


parts of the workforce. That is perhaps where there is more risk,


although on the one hand the industry as a whole will become more


efficient and more productive with better service for shoppers which is


a good thing, but we will potentially see the impact of that


will fall most heavily on perhaps more economically deprived areas and


more vulnerable people. That makes sense in some ways rightly or


wrongly, should there be a variation in terms of the national living wage


across the country? I don't think there should be regional variation


but there is a difference, there is a different minimum wage in London


compare to the rest of the country. One thing we have not touched on is


Amazon, if they try to compete with retailers which it is with some good


but not so much with others we have to make sure it is a level playing


field because you need to make sure that they and others are paying


proper and fair taxation. If you are retail stores around the country you


are not finding ways to get round taxis in the same way we have seen


some of these companies. Do you agree? I think it is an absolutely


fair comment. Looking ahead, you think that retailers don't pay their


employees enough? Part of the problem is a large number of retail


employees but they are not paid very well, even taking the minimum wage


into account, our retailers to blame for some of that? It is up to


retailers how much they pay them, I am glad the minimum wage is going up


because that is something we called for before the last election but it


is vital. They will get better customer service, if people are


valued and paid well they get better service. I think security is another


thing, we need to make sure zero our contracts are not being used where


they should not be used. The extent of the zero hours contract was


debated heavily during the election and did not seem to be as large as


Labour was implying. There is still a large amount in some parts of the


retail industry. Is it not just a case that the retail industry has


took a peeper properly? -- has to pay people properly? I think there


is more the industry needs to do in terms of low pay and what we are


showing with this report is that the changes we are seeing with the


implementation of the living wage and the change around the structural


change in the industry to do with the way that people shop well


accelerate pace of substitution, change in the way business is done.


We will see more investment in technology and less in people than


perhaps we have seen in the past. The question about how an even that


will be between different types of businesses, different parts of the


country and people within the workforce is the key thing. Thank


you. Now, we all know politicians


like a good lunch, some even Blend the two together


and what have you got? Here's our Adam with his guide


to some of the greatest political Last week Michael Gove and his wife


were here in Islington, Chez Boris, along with the Russian


businessman Evgeny Lebedev who owns Although not Liz Hurley,


who was invited to the meal Over a leg of lamb they


plotted about the EU. Europe was on the menu


here at the Dorchester Hotel during the 1975 referendum


because Labour and Tory inners would meet here for


secret breakfasts. It was a serve-yourself buffet,


so would be no waiters, A few years ago at this


restaurant in Covent Garden the then Sunday Times


journalist Isabel Oakshott lunched the economist Vicky Pryce,


who confessed her husband had He was Chris Huhne,


the Energy Secretary And rather cruelly,


the restaurant is called Round the corner here on the Strand,


this office block used to be a pub called the Duck


and Drake, where in 1604 Guy Fawkes met his co-conspirators


before they tried to At the turn of this


century at this tapas restaurant in Pimlico called Goya,


Francis Maude and Michael Portillo were spotted plotting


against William Hague. Except they weren't;


Francis Maude was just South of the river in


Kennington you will find Ghandi's, a favourite haunt


of all sort of politicians including the new Labour ministers,


plotted their coup against Gordon And talking about Labour


and talking about curries, But the most famous Labour meal deal


was done back here in Islington at a restaurant called


Granita where Blair and Brown sealed their pact


for the leadership. It shut down and became a Mexican


restaurant called Desperados, And it is now closed


down altogether. We are all starving after that!


because I'm starving! Joining us now is the Daily


Mirror's Kevin Maguire. to decide their stance on the EU


referendum, over a slow roasted shoulder of lamb as reported, sounds


tasty, do you cut your deals over meals? I think it is useful


particularly when the wine flows. You can see why the Independent is


closing down because the proprietor of a newspaper is more interested in


the food than the conversation as you have two cabinet ministers


arguing with a third and plotting coming out against Britain staying


in Europe. It is down to the wine rather than the food, tongues get


loosened and deals are cut, where would you go, where are the best


places to take politicians to hear the best gossip? Go to a noodle bar


that nobody knows, off the beaten track but I think the gay huzzah is


a fantastic venue. You get a lot of conservative politicians. Michael


foot had his own table, he would meet the Russian ambassador. It is


not very secret if you have a table. But when you are out in the open is


when you can plot the most because nobody thinks you are up to


anything. Appearance can be deceptive. Emma, you said you have


been to most of those places so you have done a lot of plotting? That is


not to say and it is not just in London we have these restaurants.


The curry house plot was a Indian restaurant in Wolverhampton. You did


not answer the question, you mean you don't do any plotting at all


Emma? No, I don't plot, I am a straightforward politician. But I do


have meals! LAUGHTER I think one of my old friends said


to me when you go into politics you will find you have very few real


friends and those are the people who happen to go for lunch order now


with. People eat together and discuss politics, we are


politicians, that is what we do. How often do you go to arrest wrong with


your political friends? Last year, a well-known journalist resigned on a


point of principle with his newspaper. He was due to take me to


a very smart restaurant which I was looking forward to, some very good


fresh. We ended up going to a small and modest bistro in Pimlico with


tiny tables and he kept talking in a loud voice and I suddenly realised


the whole restaurant was listening to every word, the bill came and I


paid. You related luck out. So are you not hatching plots over the EU


referendum strategy? They don't have too, it is all out in the open! That


is true, it is open and trans Mallon at the moment, is the less political


dealing going on in restaurants these days? It is as much as ever,


there is less wine at lunch time but it as transfers to the evening.


Often you do listen to what is said at other tables, I always assume


other people do so you go for a whisper. I recall Cecil Parkinson in


the late 80s, he was bad-mouthing Margaret Thatcher and there was a


journalist at the following table who took it all down and got a


wonderful story. Lunch is on you after the show!


There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question was who is advising Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party


Former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis?


Or Chinese Finance Minister Lou Jiwei?


So Emma and Owen what's the correct answer?


It is Yanis Varoufakis. Are you pleased with that? I don't think I


should comment on that. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I am not sure


he would be my first choice but it is up to John McDonnell and his


team. So you are not a fan? Anti-austerity? John did some good


research, seeing people did not vote Labour not because we were


anti-austerity but because we were not trusted with people's money...


Yanis Varoufakis will not be taking you out for lunch any time soon! I


like his jacket!


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