29/02/2016 Daily Politics


29/02/2016

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:39.:00:41.

Would leaving the EU lead to a decade of uncertainty?

:00:42.:00:45.

That's what the Government claims and it's released a series

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of documents to prove it, warning of protracted negotiations

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on a number of issues including the status of British citizens

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Vote Leave dismisses the claims as scaremongering.

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Nearly a million jobs to go in the retail sector over the next

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decade, according to industry experts.

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Our Ellie discovers she's a bit of a book worm as she delves

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into the contents of the House of Commons library.

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And our Adam's been investigating famous political meal deals.

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Europe was on the menu here at the Dorchester Hotel

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during the 1975 referendum because Labour and Tory inners

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would meet here for secret breakfasts.

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It was a serve-yourself buffet, so there would be no waiters,

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, two

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Former Environment Secretary, Conservative MP, Owen Patterson,

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and former Shadow Europe Minister, Labour's Emma Reynolds.

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Now first today, a touch of glamour and to the Oscars which turned

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Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your host,

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Man, I counted at least 15 black people on that montage!

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Well, I'm here at the Academy Awards.

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Otherwise known as the white people's choice awards.

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You realise, if they nominated host, I wouldn't even get this job!

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Thank you all for this amazing award tonight.

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Let us not take this planet for granted.

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I stand here tonight as a proud gay man and I hope we can all stand

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This year, in the in memoriam package, there's just going to be

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black people that were shot by the cops on their way

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# Till it happens to you, you won't know how I feel #.

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Do you embrace this new political age at the Oscars? Why not. Chris

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Rock is an incredibly funny comedian, I heard somebody say this

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morning who had been there that some of the jokes were a bit close to the

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bone and they felt you couldn't laugh and you felt that just

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watching him. But why shouldn't movie stars and others did out

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messages about climate change, gay rights, child abuse? It is very

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powerful because people looked up to them in this age of celebrity. But

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it made you feel uncomfortable at that sort of event to have those

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quite hard-core messages, certainly that sort of event to have those

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from this rock? I had not seen it direct like that -- from Chris Rock.

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It might have an impact on the people making films.

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It might have an impact on the people you choose the Oscars only

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work on what they are given, it is not just those in the judging panel

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scum it is those who put the films together so it might have an impact

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across the industry -- so it is those. There might be people who

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just say these are glib comments, they don't

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just say these are glib comments, anything serious. Why shouldn't they

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have a view on politics? One of the reasons it has become more political

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is because they're obviously weren't any lack nominees for the second

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year running. Idris Elba came to Parliament a few weeks ago and it

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relates to what Owen was saying, the people writing scripts and films

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should think about creating roles that are not just for white people.

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And he was saying that the problem was getting these roles. To break

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through the glass ceiling it takes people making the films to start

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thinking about these things. Let's see if it changes next year.

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The question for today is, who is advising Jeremy Corbyn's

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Former Greek Finance Minister, Yanis Varoufakis?

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Or Chinese Finance Minister Lou Jiwei?

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At the end of the show, Emma and Owen will give us

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This morning the Government warned that a vote to leave to EU

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could lead to a "decade of uncertainty".

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The Government's first official analysis claims the UK would be

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unlikely to negotiate its exit within the two-year timetable

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and that it could take the UK ten years to extricate itself.

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It suggests other countries could push for concessions if the UK

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It says a new agreement on trade might require ratification by other

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The report claims that this uncertainty would have an impact

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on "financial markets, investment, and the value of the pound".

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It also warns that the rights of 2 million British expats to work

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and access services in EU countries might not be guaranteed.

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But Commons leader Chris Grayling, who is campaigning for Britain

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to leave the EU, said the ten-year claim was "ludicrous".

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He accused the Government of running a "relentless campaign of fear".

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Do you agree with that assessment, a ten year period of uncertainty if we

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vote to leave? The truth is we don't know. Switzerland are still trying

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to negotiate better access to the single market which they don't have

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that unfettered access, being outside. They had to negotiate all

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sorts of agreements with different member states. I think it is in our

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interest to stay in, economically, and I think it is right to point at

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the risk of leaving. I think the government is right to do an

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analysis of what it might mean and I think there would be a lot of

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uncertainty. The pound last week dropped to its lowest value for

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seven years because of the uncertainty of the referendum and

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fears of the UK perhaps leaving and that underlines what might happen.

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One of the sections in the assessment is uncertainty during the

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negotiating period which could be two years after the date of the

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referendum result. It could have an impact on financial markets,

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investment and the value of the pound and on the wide economy. Is

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there anything in that that is not true? I think this operation via is

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reaching hysterical heights. But is it not true? On day one, nothing

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changes, we are still full members on June 24 and any sensible

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government would begin a programme of serious discussion with our

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neighbours as to what the final outcome might be. There would be

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months of negotiation going through carefully what sort of arrangement

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we would end up with. At that point I would suggest, if you trigger

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article 50 which gives you a legally binding two-year period, but the

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point is, if our neighbours are as awful as the government say, why are

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we staying in anyway? Our neighbours do huge trade with a scum there are

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5 million Europeans whose job depend on sales to the UK, a million

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Germans alone. We send 2.6 million car engines are broad and most come

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back in the finished products. They would want to do a deal. Angela

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Merkel will not want to infuriate German workers whose jobs depend on

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it. Everything continues, the current rules continue, we continue

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as full members and all existing treaties continue. If you take

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Czechoslovakia with the velvet divorce, that went off smoothly and

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there is no reason that should not happen. We will come onto the sort

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of deal the UK could negotiate but it is true that if on June 24 Brit

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in notifies and triggers Article 50, from that point nothing changes --

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Britain. The pre-existing treaties and obligations will not cease until

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the new negotiation is underway. The best way to keep those conditions is

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to stay in. There is a big inconsistency on the Eurosceptics

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part. They say that if we stay in we will always be losers even though

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your own longest serving Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher forged

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ahead with the single market, one of the most successful things about the

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EU, and Tony Blair created the conditions for enlargement and

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pushed ahead successfully for that. Somehow the Eurosceptics are

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pessimistic about our role in the EU, working together, when we are

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often the winners. But if we were to come out, they think they could have

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everything they want without having to abide by any of the rules or

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conditions. Norway abides by all of the rules and they are a rule taker,

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they abide by the roles of the single market, by the free movement

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of people and they had to pay into the EU budget to get access to the

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single market. Let's not pretend that this would be a cost free

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option. Not to say that we could not negotiate a better deal if that was

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the case. Let's look at the issue uncertainty. Already, as Emma

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alluded to, the financial markets are jittery about Brexit and the

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pound did slump against the dollar last week. It could also lead to

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businesses, some of whom have stated they would hold onto investment

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decisions and wait until that two-year period was over before

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deciding where to perhaps build their next factory or invest in

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another company. That would lead to uncertainty. It would be helpful if

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the government did not stir up the uncertainty. The fact is, everybody

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should reassure all of the world markets that, during the negotiation

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period, first of all informal and then formal under Article 50,

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everything carries on as normal. But nobody will know what will happen

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after two years and nobody will know what the deal is and you can see why

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businesses would hold onto their money. Yes, but it is clear to us on

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our side that we have been told world open to us. We already do. No

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we don't. On the World Trade Organisation we have won 28th of a

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seat represented by eight sweeties -- a Swedish psychiatric nurse.

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If you take trade, tiny countries like Iceland and New Zealand had

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direct trade deals with China, we would open up the whole world. The

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opportunities are enormous. And where Emma must not let slip is that

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the EU is effectively leaving us, they will form this new entity

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around the Eurozone. The idea that it is a cosy club is not true, we

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will be left on the outside of this with some ill-defined associate

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status. That's rubbish. There are nine member states who don't have

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the euro, we are not the only country, we are one of nine. And we

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are an integral part of the single market. Again, pessimism from the

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Eurosceptics about what we can do while remaining in the EU and

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working with our partners. Why do EU leaders have an interest in making

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life more difficult for the UK? Surely they would get on with that

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negotiating period and set up new trade agreements and it could be

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liberating in the way that Iain Duncan Smith has described. I think

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we are more prosperous and stronger by staying. You don't know that. How

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do you know? We are negotiating more ambitious trade deals with big

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economies around the world. The US government has suggested they are

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not that interested in a bilateral trade deal with us because they are

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more interested in doing a trade deal with the biggest single market

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in the world, the EU. We have more clout and power in the world by

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being a member of the EU than if we were on the outside. Isn't it true

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that both sides are scaremongering? Both camps are setting out to people

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their doom and do not -- disaster scenarios if we stay or leave. This

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idea of negative campaigning only on one side is not the case. They will

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form this entity around the Eurozone, we will be excluded and

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what Mervyn King said was that we are wise to be well away from the

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Eurozone. It is not clear what status we would have. If we let them

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get on with the political and judicial arrangements, get out the

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back and have a totally new arrangement based on trade and

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cooperation, the world is open to us. We would read galvanised free

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trade with the Anglo sphere. There are large number of people in

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America who would like to deal with us on sectors like automobiles and

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drugs and issues like that. It is still the case we trade more

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with the rest of the EU than any other country in the world. This is

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a false choice that the Eurosceptics like to bandy about, that somehow we

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have to choose between trading with the rest of the EU or the rest of

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the world and that is rubbish. We have the best of both worlds at the

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moment. We trade closely with our European partners, 47% of our trade

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goes with them and the rest is with the rest of the world. We do very

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well thank you very much. So you are happy with all the controls? Yes, I

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thought the Prime Minister did a decent job in his renegotiation

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because he clarified some of the issues around the Eurozone, the

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relationship with the non-Eurozone and I stress again we are not the

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only country in the EU not having the euro. He clarified those

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arrangements and some things to do with immigration as well. They will

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be pleased to have your support I am sure! Do you think Eurosceptic

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ministers should have access to civil service papers? I think there

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is a huge problem with the government taking a position which I

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agree with which is that we should remain as part of a reformed EU but

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at the same time suspending collective responsibility. There is

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also a huge problem with David Cameron rolling over again and again

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and again just to please the Eurosceptics which is why we are

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here right now. In some ways you have got your way by having

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collective responsibility abandoned but now you want access to the

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papers which are supposedly only the ones which actually refer to the EU

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referendum directly, you cannot have your cake and eat it? IC ten years

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of opportunity, the EU is lousy at negotiating trade deals, they asked

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all budding around with America, China and India are in the pipeline.

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Why is it countries like Iceland and New Zealand can do direct deals with

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China? I see this as an opportunity to open up a whole world, we have

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relations in south-east Asia, we would actually read galvanise world

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free trade. Part of the reason people are drowning in the

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Mediterranean is because of the breakdown in free trade because...

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Blocks like the EU are rotten at organising these deals. On the

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papers? It is nonsense and eight breach of the Venice commission

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which is endorsed by well-known democracies like Russia where the

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government is supposed to be neutral in constitutional referendums. It is

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quite wrong that a senior civil servant should be telling ministers

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who take a different line on the European issue that they don't have

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access to papers. Someone must have the same access to all the papers in

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my old department. The majority of Defra's activity has been handed to

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the European institutions, agriculture, food, drink,

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environment. It is vital George has access to up-to-date data and the

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latest developments. What will you do if that continues and he can't

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get access? I will raise it with the Prime Minister in questions on

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Wednesday and there are other members of Parliament who are

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exercised by this. My worry is that if it is seen that the government is

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trying to cheat people will not regard the referendum as legitimate

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and that is a danger. It must be seen to be fought their lead from

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the beginning. We see this again and again, the Eurosceptics moan and

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bang on about process because, this is an insurance claim for them, if

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they lose the referendum they will claim it is not fair so they can

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have another one and if they lose that one they will claim it is not

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fair so they can have another. It's such a predictable pattern. It is

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all about process, why don't we talk about the big arguments which is

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what people are really worried about. If the result is that Britain

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stays with due accent did? We won the argument on Perda. The

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government backed off and I think they were right to do and they

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listened and I hope they will listen to this issue on giving their access

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to ministers. It is vital the public see this to be fair. We will have to

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stop it there, you are on the hob programme. -- the whole programme.

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Well, a little earlier, Scotland's First Minister,

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Nicola Sturgeon, has been laying out the SNP's arguments for remaining

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In a speech in central London, she pledged to lead a "progressive

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I hope that the debate that we engage in over the next few

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months is a thoroughly positive debate.

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Because one of the undoubted lessons of the Scottish experience

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is that a miserable, negative, fear-based campaign saw

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the No campaign in the Scottish referendum lose, over

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the course of the campaign, a 20-point lead.

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And I don't have to point out to anybody here that the In campaign

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in this referendum doesn't have a 20-point lead to squander.

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And we're joined now by the SNP MP, Stephen Gethins, and by Ukip's only

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MEP in Scotland, David Coburn, who's in our Edinburgh studio.

:21:07.:21:12.

Welcome to both of you, first of all it is clear that you and the

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government take a different approach certainly rhetorically in making the

:21:20.:21:24.

case for the UK to remain in the EU. Do you think it is project fear or

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Project reality that the government is indulging in? We have been

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concerned by some of the messaging, in Scotland the project here element

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did not work, the point the First Minister was making was that the no

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campaign squandered the 20 point lead. They won by a lot less and we

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saw what happened after so it is important to have a positive

:21:49.:21:52.

campaign and it has to be said that that goes for all of us. You turn

:21:53.:21:56.

people off if you try to scaremonger your way to victory. What are you

:21:57.:22:02.

saying that is so positive that doesn't indulge in this negative

:22:03.:22:07.

campaign? I think it's a fantastic opportunity to talk about the

:22:08.:22:10.

benefits, we don't often hear the benefits of the EU and you get

:22:11.:22:15.

government is trying to pretend Brussels has made them do things

:22:16.:22:18.

when they signed up to them a long time ago. This government have not

:22:19.:22:23.

voted against the proposal since they came in. Let's talk about

:22:24.:22:27.

workers rights, paternity rights, the action we are taking on the

:22:28.:22:31.

environment and the economic benefit as well. David Coburn, you have a

:22:32.:22:37.

difficult job on your hands I suggest because 60% of voters

:22:38.:22:41.

broadly speaking want to stay in the EU and you don't have a lot of

:22:42.:22:46.

political allies on this subject in Scotland? That is nonsense! The

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Guardian came out and said 60% of Scots were Eurosceptic. 60% of Scots

:22:53.:23:00.

were Eurosceptic and wanted to pull out of the EU? That is what the

:23:01.:23:06.

Guardian said so it must be true. Ukip and Scotland, we are expected

:23:07.:23:14.

to get seven MSP 's according to a daily record poll so that is not too

:23:15.:23:18.

bad, I think the Scots are a lot more Eurosceptic than everyone tries

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to make out. The Scottish National party are not a Scottish National

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party they are European party. If they want more power in the Scottish

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parliament nothing will give Scotland more power than exiting the

:23:31.:23:38.

European Union. All the fishing, agriculture, industry will all come

:23:39.:23:41.

back to the Scottish Parliament and we will be able to get the 200 mile

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fishing limit back which the SNP don't seem to want which is very odd

:23:46.:23:51.

for a National party of Scotland. That is a positive case, you could

:23:52.:23:55.

have more access to potential markets if you came out of the EU?

:23:56.:24:01.

To pick up on the opinion polls, they have consistently shown that

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Scots are in favour of staying in the EU. I'm not saying we don't have

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a job to do but they have consistently shown that. On the

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issue of more powers we have questioned the government about

:24:18.:24:19.

which new powers Scotland would see and they have not told us any. They

:24:20.:24:27.

come back to London. Finally, on fishing, and this is another example

:24:28.:24:30.

where the member state hide behind the European Union, on fishing it

:24:31.:24:36.

was the Conservative government in the 70s which described Scotland's

:24:37.:24:39.

fishing industry as expendable, not the European Union. Which laws would

:24:40.:24:44.

come back specifically to the Scottish Government? Again it

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depends who has won, we want fishing brought back to Scotland, the 200

:24:51.:24:55.

mile limit. It is a great business for Scotland and at the moment the

:24:56.:24:59.

Spanish are looting our seas and making a fortune. We can do that

:25:00.:25:02.

ourselves here in Scotland and that is much better for the Scottish

:25:03.:25:08.

economy. I don't understand how the Scottish Nationalists can't

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understand that. Is this the argument you will use to try to

:25:12.:25:16.

convince the Scots? Absolutely but they have picked it up for

:25:17.:25:20.

themselves, they are not daft. We would not have the trouble we are

:25:21.:25:24.

having with the steel industry if it wasn't for expensive rules by the

:25:25.:25:28.

European Union about closing places, we have expensive... Chinese

:25:29.:25:36.

imports? That is also down to the EU cause in terms of tariffs, they have

:25:37.:25:43.

let them dump steel in Scotland. Why don't we have our own trade treaty

:25:44.:25:49.

with the United States? Instead of dividing by 27 different people it

:25:50.:25:52.

would just be four nations, what is wrong with that? Two of SNP MEPs

:25:53.:26:09.

were not present when we were voting on the T-tip. We get a lot of

:26:10.:26:17.

e-mails on that, that American companies will be able to get

:26:18.:26:22.

contracts and get rid of workers rights and conditions, would not

:26:23.:26:24.

expect the SNP to sign up to something like that? No, and the

:26:25.:26:31.

First Minister this morning expressed her significant concerns

:26:32.:26:36.

about T-tip. The very question that you would trust the London

:26:37.:26:40.

government on workers rights over Brussels is an anomaly. It was

:26:41.:26:43.

Brussels who made progress on things like maternity and paternity rights

:26:44.:26:49.

and various other workers rights. The trade unionist act will show you

:26:50.:26:53.

what a London government would do. The idea that working cooperatively

:26:54.:26:59.

with Brussels is worse than leaving London in charge is a myth. If this

:27:00.:27:04.

is such a big issue as you and your colleagues have said why don't you

:27:05.:27:07.

share a platform of David Cameron and the Conservatives? This is

:27:08.:27:16.

beyond party politics. Because we want to win the referendum in

:27:17.:27:20.

Scotland. The Tories had their worst resort in Scotland since 1865, David

:27:21.:27:23.

Cameron is hugely unpopular. My resort in Scotland since 1865, David

:27:24.:27:27.

message to Mr Cameron would be if you want the Scottish devote to stay

:27:28.:27:31.

in the best thing to do is stay away.

:27:32.:27:35.

in the best thing to do is stay can expect the SNP to call another

:27:36.:27:38.

Scottish independence referendum, immediately? This could have been

:27:39.:27:41.

avoided. That is not what I asked. immediately? This could have been

:27:42.:27:49.

time, this is something we try to avoid,

:27:50.:27:50.

time, this is something we try to point this morning that this is not

:27:51.:27:53.

the circumstances we wanted to point this morning that this is not

:27:54.:27:58.

the UK votes to leave and Scotland votes to stay you would have

:27:59.:28:01.

the UK votes to leave and Scotland be an equal

:28:02.:28:03.

the UK votes to leave and Scotland those circumstances there will be

:28:04.:28:09.

calls for a second independent sport. How soon do you think? There

:28:10.:28:15.

will be calls and we will take it one referendum at a time but there

:28:16.:28:18.

will have been a breakdown in the relationship. Is pushing the

:28:19.:28:24.

Scotland out of the UK an acceptable price to leave the EU? It's not

:28:25.:28:31.

going to happen. Just because people may or may not like the European

:28:32.:28:34.

Union does not mean they will want to leave the UK. The two things are

:28:35.:28:41.

completely unrelated. I tell you something, there is no difference in

:28:42.:28:44.

Scotland and England, I knocked on as many doors north and south of the

:28:45.:28:48.

border and the person in Glasgow has the same view as the person and

:28:49.:28:57.

Birmingham. There is no difference. Far be it from me to bring facts

:28:58.:29:00.

Birmingham. There is no difference. into it... We like facts! Every

:29:01.:29:07.

repeatable poll has shown that Scots are consistently more in

:29:08.:29:12.

repeatable poll has shown that Scots meaning in the EU than elsewhere.

:29:13.:29:18.

There has been a variation. There has, but significantly higher than

:29:19.:29:23.

the 50-50 we see in the rest of the UK. That is not to say we are taking

:29:24.:29:30.

it for granted. Before I let you go I need to ask about the Ukip plan or

:29:31.:29:35.

proposal are blaming the EU for restricting the power of toasters,

:29:36.:29:41.

is that still the case? Apparently I managed to stop some legislation

:29:42.:29:48.

until after the Brexit. They are holding back the legislation until

:29:49.:29:54.

after the referendum in order to not terrified British voters. So I am

:29:55.:29:59.

one of the few MEPs who have achieved something, I stopped

:30:00.:30:06.

something! Except, is it true? It is and humour is a dangerous thing and

:30:07.:30:09.

I'm afraid the European Union suffer from a lack of it. On that note of

:30:10.:30:16.

positive, upbeat campaign, thank you both.

:30:17.:30:18.

So, in a week expected to be dominated by events surrounding

:30:19.:30:23.

Later today, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is expected

:30:24.:30:25.

to address the Parliamentary Labour Party for the first time this year.

:30:26.:30:28.

On Tuesday, the Government is due to publish the latest incarnation

:30:29.:30:31.

of the Investigatory Powers Bill, the so-called 'Snoopers Charter'.

:30:32.:30:33.

On Wednesday, David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn face each other

:30:34.:30:35.

across the Despatch Box for their weekly dose of PMQs.

:30:36.:30:40.

On Thursday, the British Chambers of Commerce holds its annual

:30:41.:30:42.

Key speakers include the Labour leader and the German Finance

:30:43.:30:49.

And on Friday, the Scottish Tories' Spring Conference kicks off

:30:50.:30:55.

Leader Ruth Davidson will speak, possibly joined by David Cameron.

:30:56.:31:03.

Let's talk now to Caroline Wheeler from the Sunday Express

:31:04.:31:05.

Welcome to both of you. The first time Jeremy Corbyn addresses the

:31:06.:31:19.

Parliamentary Labour Party and we are in March almost. White has it

:31:20.:31:25.

taken him so long and what can he expect? He was meant to turn up last

:31:26.:31:29.

week but pulled out at the last moment because of the bait on Europe

:31:30.:31:36.

and the statement the Prime Minister brought back from Brussels -- the

:31:37.:31:48.

debate. The belief among Labour MPs, and with some justification, is that

:31:49.:31:52.

it is a pretty awful gathering for Jeremy Corbyn whenever he goes.

:31:53.:31:57.

There are a large number of Labour MPs who like to make their is like

:31:58.:32:03.

him known at these gatherings. The contents leaks almost instantly and

:32:04.:32:09.

I think it is fair to say that he likes almost anything else other

:32:10.:32:12.

than the Parliamentary Labour Party meetings on a Monday night. It is

:32:13.:32:17.

not surprising he doesn't turn up. I don't blame him. Caroline, the issue

:32:18.:32:25.

of access to papers during this EU referendum. We are expecting a

:32:26.:32:32.

question asked as to why Jeremy Hayward banned ministers having

:32:33.:32:35.

access to these papers. How will this play out? It will be tricky,

:32:36.:32:41.

number ten will say they have done nothing wrong and this is standard

:32:42.:32:46.

policy and the civil servants can only do things that support their

:32:47.:32:50.

position and that is to stay in Europe. But there has been a lot of

:32:51.:32:55.

criticism saying it is going beyond the remit of the realm and that

:32:56.:33:01.

Jeremy Hayward has encouraged them to spy on ministers to say whether

:33:02.:33:06.

they will come out for Brexit or not and to restrict certain papers that

:33:07.:33:09.

even people like Iain Duncan Smith can have access to. There has been a

:33:10.:33:15.

big ding-dong about this and it will go off at the committee hearing this

:33:16.:33:19.

afternoon when he will give evidence to the committee led by Bernard

:33:20.:33:25.

Jenkin is who is an ardent Eurosceptic, to try to somehow

:33:26.:33:31.

justify this position. How difficult will it be to keep both sides of the

:33:32.:33:35.

Tory party together? What is most striking in their debate is you now

:33:36.:33:42.

have somewhere in the region of 140 Tory MPs defying David Cameron and

:33:43.:33:45.

coming out for Brexit. Those numbers are much higher than anticipated by

:33:46.:33:51.

Downing Street in October or never that when it seemed to be closer to

:33:52.:33:57.

70 or 100. We are not quite at civil war time yet. The Tory party feels

:33:58.:34:02.

like a number of long-standing friends at the top of the party have

:34:03.:34:07.

had a big row and quite how that trickles down to the rest of the

:34:08.:34:12.

party remains to be seen. David Cameron is more interested in

:34:13.:34:16.

winning the referendum than holding the party together and perhaps that

:34:17.:34:21.

calculus has changed in the last month. There is less talk of that

:34:22.:34:28.

and more of just needing to win and convincingly, whatever that means

:34:29.:34:31.

for the futures of Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and others. Let's

:34:32.:34:36.

talk about the different policy issue, that of surveillance powers

:34:37.:34:43.

and the investigatory Powers Bill. Has it been changed dramatically by

:34:44.:34:46.

Theresa May before being presented to the House of Commons? If you read

:34:47.:34:51.

some of the coverage of this, the suggestion is that it hasn't been

:34:52.:34:55.

changed that dramatically after the intervention of three separate

:34:56.:34:59.

committees which raised serious questions. This will be another

:35:00.:35:05.

question between those who are on the side of civil liberties and

:35:06.:35:08.

those who say we should do everything in our powers to protect

:35:09.:35:15.

Britain and give them as much power as possible to protect them from any

:35:16.:35:19.

cyber or terrorist attack. Europe seems to come into other thing we do

:35:20.:35:23.

and there is some suggestion that this bill is being brought back at a

:35:24.:35:28.

time when most of the party is distracted with other things so

:35:29.:35:31.

there is a big question about the response when it is published, we

:35:32.:35:36.

believe tomorrow. Will there be more support for it? It is a numbers

:35:37.:35:41.

game. The problem with the bill before is that it wasn't clear they

:35:42.:35:46.

would get it through Parliament. It seems that some of the Northern

:35:47.:35:49.

Ireland parties are likely to vote in favour. Labour are not completely

:35:50.:35:55.

against it, Andy Burnham has been flip-flopping more times on this

:35:56.:35:59.

than in the leadership election! But not every Labour MP will vote to

:36:00.:36:04.

oppose it so with that backdrop it feels hard to call it as a definite

:36:05.:36:10.

loss for Theresa May. The basics are the same. It feels like they could

:36:11.:36:13.

have a good shot at it. Thank you very much.

:36:14.:36:16.

Want to know how our guests today Owen and Emma know so much

:36:17.:36:19.

and are able to answer any question with absolute authority?

:36:20.:36:22.

It's because they are MPs and spend lots of time in the House of Commons

:36:23.:36:25.

Not only does the library have books but it has some very swotty research

:36:26.:36:30.

staff who pull together briefings on every subject from local

:36:31.:36:32.

government funding in the North East to household recycling in the UK.

:36:33.:36:35.

Our Ellie went down to see them at work, including one librarian

:36:36.:36:38.

who's retiring today, after 44 years.

:36:39.:36:42.

Until 1966 it was the Speaker's private library.

:36:43.:37:16.

John Prince fell in love with this library when he started working

:37:17.:37:19.

Apart from a handful of librarians and Parliamentary staff,

:37:20.:37:25.

and me for the morning, only 650 people are really

:37:26.:37:27.

The library stocks any topic that might be of value or use to an MP

:37:28.:37:38.

There are around 40,000 books in here and it has got some other

:37:39.:37:45.

cool stuff too, like this really old phone.

:37:46.:37:49.

So, John, it's not all about the books then in here?

:37:50.:37:52.

No, we have one or two other items, including this Parson's-Sloper

:37:53.:37:55.

interphone which dates from the 1920s when this room

:37:56.:37:57.

was the Speaker's private library and he could use this to communicate

:37:58.:38:00.

with other parts of his official residence here.

:38:01.:38:04.

There are also pamphlets dating back to 1559 and even some

:38:05.:38:07.

They are the oldest things we've got, they are very lucky

:38:08.:38:12.

We know we have had them as a distinct collection

:38:13.:38:16.

But this is a working library with working technology.

:38:17.:38:22.

There are a lot of fantastic books here but really very

:38:23.:38:25.

Much more it is about the information that we do publish

:38:26.:38:30.

online, but the public really need to know that MPs

:38:31.:38:33.

And, of course, it's difficult for them to be experts in everything

:38:34.:38:38.

so the big thing we do is brief MPs on the bills

:38:39.:38:41.

Parliament, on big issues, topical issues of relevance.

:38:42.:38:46.

Albert Einstein once said, the only thing you absolutely have

:38:47.:38:49.

to know is the location of the library.

:38:50.:38:51.

And joining us now is the Conservative MP

:38:52.:38:58.

Michael Fabricant, who sits on the House

:38:59.:39:00.

of Commons Administration Committee, the body responsible for overseeing

:39:01.:39:02.

And a lovely library it is. It is beautiful and we are not allowed to

:39:03.:39:15.

take people in normally. 40,000 books. What is the fiction section

:39:16.:39:22.

like? Not good! You might have to go to Boots! Don't petitions want to

:39:23.:39:28.

read something other than factual stuff? They might want a Jackie

:39:29.:39:33.

Collins or something. You might be able to request that. There is an

:39:34.:39:38.

extensive magazine section and it is a good place to go to do research

:39:39.:39:42.

and very good if you want to just chill out. Do MPs go? They go for

:39:43.:39:49.

all different purposes some to use the computers you have seen, others

:39:50.:39:55.

to do research, others to have research provided for them and also,

:39:56.:39:59.

for example, my office is some distance from the Palace of

:40:00.:40:04.

Westminster, it is in what used to be the old Scotland Yard will bring,

:40:05.:40:08.

and I can go on the computers there. Do you go? Less since I moved

:40:09.:40:15.

offices. I used to use it a per Mendis amount and the staff are

:40:16.:40:21.

William -- a tremendous amount. The staff are brilliant. Mainly I ask

:40:22.:40:28.

them to do research work, they are incredibly quick and thorough. You

:40:29.:40:33.

can ask for a policy document on anything? Absolutely. And it has

:40:34.:40:36.

real clout and you can anything? Absolutely. And it has

:40:37.:40:40.

make a speech and you are listened anything? Absolutely. And it has

:40:41.:40:41.

to if you refer to that library. And anything? Absolutely. And it has

:40:42.:40:47.

everybody does listen to it when you use it. Do you go? Yes it is a vital

:40:48.:40:54.

resource for backbenchers and opposition MPs. I used it in housing

:40:55.:40:58.

because you can ask them to look into all sorts of things. I often go

:40:59.:41:05.

newspapers when there is a gap between a meeting. I will go and

:41:06.:41:12.

newspapers when there is a gap look at a

:41:13.:41:13.

newspapers when there is a gap haven't had a chance to read, that

:41:14.:41:18.

is useful as well. I must confess, I only go if I'd been in it! How

:41:19.:41:26.

narcissistic! You haven't got a book at home that is mounting up huge

:41:27.:41:32.

fines? Absolutely not! I behave very correctly. Do you take books out? I

:41:33.:41:40.

have but I tend to over recess. It is quite difficult to find the time

:41:41.:41:44.

to read a good blog while we are in session. When I take them out it

:41:45.:41:50.

tends to be over the recess periods. Is it worth keeping them? If MPs are

:41:51.:41:56.

using it as a research facility, wouldn't it be better to auction off

:41:57.:42:00.

some of those and help George Osborne pay the deficit? Some of

:42:01.:42:04.

them are held by the British likely and elsewhere because they are

:42:05.:42:08.

incredibly historical. -- British library. There are a lot of

:42:09.:42:13.

biographies, there is a colleague who is almost

:42:14.:42:16.

biographies, there is a colleague around with books under

:42:17.:42:16.

biographies, there is a colleague is always borrowing from the

:42:17.:42:22.

library. But I wanted to say, like Owen, I am very sceptical

:42:23.:42:28.

library. But I wanted to say, like economic grounds and I will give

:42:29.:42:30.

library. But I wanted to say, like an example of how the library was

:42:31.:42:32.

incredibly useful. We were saying that if we left the EU we would have

:42:33.:42:40.

a camp like the Jungle in the middle of Kent. I contacted the library

:42:41.:42:44.

because it is governed by this treaty, they sent me the treaty and

:42:45.:42:50.

because it is governed by this a summary saying it is all a load of

:42:51.:42:53.

balderdash and has nothing to do with the EU whatsoever! I knew we

:42:54.:42:59.

would get back to the EU! Because it came from the House of Commons

:43:00.:43:04.

library, people not only leave it, they know it to be true and

:43:05.:43:09.

ministers noted to be true. What about the atmosphere in the library

:43:10.:43:13.

itself? The furniture and trappings, is it like old members club? A bit.

:43:14.:43:18.

Some people might go there for a nap as well! Have you done that? I can

:43:19.:43:27.

categorically state... It is a bit like an old university library. The

:43:28.:43:31.

further down you go, the quieter it debts. Are there many people in

:43:32.:43:43.

that. -- it gets. You have different times and different often it is

:43:44.:43:47.

people like myself who not only research done but who want to get to

:43:48.:43:52.

a computer and catch up with e-mails. It is packed during the

:43:53.:43:57.

day. On Thursday night I happened to be late at the House of Commons and

:43:58.:44:02.

the house had risen and I had been entertaining people from my

:44:03.:44:05.

constituency. It was about ten o'clock and there was somebody

:44:06.:44:10.

snoozing, the young MP who had missed his train. He might still be

:44:11.:44:16.

there! I don't know if he was planning to stay the night but he

:44:17.:44:19.

was in a comfortable armchair and why not? I am pleased to hear it is

:44:20.:44:24.

serving all sorts of uses. Thank you for coming in.

:44:25.:44:28.

Britain's retailers predict that almost a million jobs in the sector

:44:29.:44:31.

will disappear by 2025, that's about a third

:44:32.:44:33.

Retailers employ one in six people in the UK,

:44:34.:44:36.

and the sector accounts for about a tenth of the UK economy.

:44:37.:44:39.

Let's talk now to Victoria Fritz from the BBC's business unit who's

:44:40.:44:43.

What is happening? The big issue is all about smartphones and tablet

:44:44.:44:56.

computers, consumers in the UK have got used to using them, they are

:44:57.:45:00.

used to going online and trying to find a cheaper deal. So we are

:45:01.:45:04.

seeing changing tastes. On the other side of the occasion, if you are a

:45:05.:45:10.

start-up business for example it is cheaper and easier and faster to set

:45:11.:45:15.

up your business online and you have reduced overheads, you are not

:45:16.:45:18.

paying business rates or for staff in shops. We have seen supply change

:45:19.:45:24.

as well. Talking to retailers it seems to ring true, we have heard

:45:25.:45:28.

from the chairman of Debenhams who says he thinks we will see fewer

:45:29.:45:32.

workers in the future and people like Tesco's are saying that given

:45:33.:45:37.

the competition in the market at the moment there will be a real change

:45:38.:45:40.

towards this and everyone is trying to push online. Is this not a

:45:41.:45:46.

continuation of a gradual decline or is this a sudden cliff edge? The big

:45:47.:45:53.

difference is that the official estimates put the numbers of jobs

:45:54.:45:56.

lost much lower so this is quite striking today. I think what is

:45:57.:46:03.

interesting is what will happen with the national living wage, this is

:46:04.:46:08.

the new name for the minimum wage which is coming into effect next

:46:09.:46:11.

month. It will be interesting to see what happens to the wage bill, will

:46:12.:46:17.

we see retailers respond to that by cutting the number of people they

:46:18.:46:22.

employ overall are whether or not we see a quick ship to automation and

:46:23.:46:24.

online retail. Well, Helen Dickinson

:46:25.:46:26.

from the British Retail Consortium Listening to the figures, what will

:46:27.:46:39.

you do to protect employees? What is striking about this report is that

:46:40.:46:42.

we are already seeing a fall in the number of people working in the

:46:43.:46:46.

industry over the last couple of years and what we will see is

:46:47.:46:50.

perhaps that accelerate as we go forward as the equation between

:46:51.:46:55.

technology and labour cost has shifted on the back of the living

:46:56.:47:00.

wage. So the aspiration absolutely is that although there will be fewer

:47:01.:47:04.

jobs there are better jobs in the industry. Much more focus on

:47:05.:47:09.

customer service and a different profile in terms of the digital and

:47:10.:47:14.

physical and how it works together. Did you see this government policy

:47:15.:47:18.

of the national living wage increasing by the amount it is

:47:19.:47:24.

having these sorts of consequences? It will have a knock-on impact on

:47:25.:47:28.

retail and hospitality, on the care industry for instance. But I agree,

:47:29.:47:34.

what you will see is jobs will move, I was in Shropshire on Friday and

:47:35.:47:41.

they are looking for more jobs and activity in the post office, it is a

:47:42.:47:49.

key resource. People go there for money or physical deliveries, so you

:47:50.:47:52.

will see a growth in different areas. There will be different jobs.

:47:53.:48:00.

Before I came in I saw a Twitter message saying Anderson will start

:48:01.:48:06.

delivering meat, fruit and vegetables -- Amazon. Hasn't the

:48:07.:48:14.

industry adapted already, you must have known about this, you had a

:48:15.:48:19.

report in 2014 saying 60% of jobs were at risk from high automation

:48:20.:48:22.

and exacerbated by the national living wage. The industry has to

:48:23.:48:31.

keep up with the times. Absolutely, we have adaptable retailers who will

:48:32.:48:36.

respond. What we wanted to highlight in the report was questions about

:48:37.:48:39.

how this will impact in different parts of the country and different

:48:40.:48:44.

parts of the workforce. That is perhaps where there is more risk,

:48:45.:48:48.

although on the one hand the industry as a whole will become more

:48:49.:48:53.

efficient and more productive with better service for shoppers which is

:48:54.:48:58.

a good thing, but we will potentially see the impact of that

:48:59.:49:03.

will fall most heavily on perhaps more economically deprived areas and

:49:04.:49:08.

more vulnerable people. That makes sense in some ways rightly or

:49:09.:49:12.

wrongly, should there be a variation in terms of the national living wage

:49:13.:49:18.

across the country? I don't think there should be regional variation

:49:19.:49:23.

but there is a difference, there is a different minimum wage in London

:49:24.:49:27.

compare to the rest of the country. One thing we have not touched on is

:49:28.:49:34.

Amazon, if they try to compete with retailers which it is with some good

:49:35.:49:37.

but not so much with others we have to make sure it is a level playing

:49:38.:49:41.

field because you need to make sure that they and others are paying

:49:42.:49:47.

proper and fair taxation. If you are retail stores around the country you

:49:48.:49:50.

are not finding ways to get round taxis in the same way we have seen

:49:51.:49:55.

some of these companies. Do you agree? I think it is an absolutely

:49:56.:50:01.

fair comment. Looking ahead, you think that retailers don't pay their

:50:02.:50:06.

employees enough? Part of the problem is a large number of retail

:50:07.:50:10.

employees but they are not paid very well, even taking the minimum wage

:50:11.:50:14.

into account, our retailers to blame for some of that? It is up to

:50:15.:50:21.

retailers how much they pay them, I am glad the minimum wage is going up

:50:22.:50:24.

because that is something we called for before the last election but it

:50:25.:50:28.

is vital. They will get better customer service, if people are

:50:29.:50:32.

valued and paid well they get better service. I think security is another

:50:33.:50:37.

thing, we need to make sure zero our contracts are not being used where

:50:38.:50:42.

they should not be used. The extent of the zero hours contract was

:50:43.:50:48.

debated heavily during the election and did not seem to be as large as

:50:49.:50:53.

Labour was implying. There is still a large amount in some parts of the

:50:54.:51:03.

retail industry. Is it not just a case that the retail industry has

:51:04.:51:08.

took a peeper properly? -- has to pay people properly? I think there

:51:09.:51:14.

is more the industry needs to do in terms of low pay and what we are

:51:15.:51:19.

showing with this report is that the changes we are seeing with the

:51:20.:51:23.

implementation of the living wage and the change around the structural

:51:24.:51:26.

change in the industry to do with the way that people shop well

:51:27.:51:34.

accelerate pace of substitution, change in the way business is done.

:51:35.:51:38.

We will see more investment in technology and less in people than

:51:39.:51:44.

perhaps we have seen in the past. The question about how an even that

:51:45.:51:49.

will be between different types of businesses, different parts of the

:51:50.:51:52.

country and people within the workforce is the key thing. Thank

:51:53.:51:54.

you. Now, we all know politicians

:51:55.:51:56.

like a good lunch, some even Blend the two together

:51:57.:51:59.

and what have you got? Here's our Adam with his guide

:52:00.:52:05.

to some of the greatest political Last week Michael Gove and his wife

:52:06.:52:07.

were here in Islington, Chez Boris, along with the Russian

:52:08.:52:11.

businessman Evgeny Lebedev who owns Although not Liz Hurley,

:52:12.:52:14.

who was invited to the meal Over a leg of lamb they

:52:15.:52:19.

plotted about the EU. Europe was on the menu

:52:20.:52:25.

here at the Dorchester Hotel during the 1975 referendum

:52:26.:52:27.

because Labour and Tory inners would meet here for

:52:28.:52:31.

secret breakfasts. It was a serve-yourself buffet,

:52:32.:52:34.

so would be no waiters, A few years ago at this

:52:35.:52:37.

restaurant in Covent Garden the then Sunday Times

:52:38.:52:42.

journalist Isabel Oakshott lunched the economist Vicky Pryce,

:52:43.:52:45.

who confessed her husband had He was Chris Huhne,

:52:46.:52:52.

the Energy Secretary And rather cruelly,

:52:53.:52:54.

the restaurant is called Round the corner here on the Strand,

:52:55.:52:57.

this office block used to be a pub called the Duck

:52:58.:53:05.

and Drake, where in 1604 Guy Fawkes met his co-conspirators

:53:06.:53:09.

before they tried to At the turn of this

:53:10.:53:10.

century at this tapas restaurant in Pimlico called Goya,

:53:11.:53:18.

Francis Maude and Michael Portillo were spotted plotting

:53:19.:53:20.

against William Hague. Except they weren't;

:53:21.:53:23.

Francis Maude was just South of the river in

:53:24.:53:26.

Kennington you will find Ghandi's, a favourite haunt

:53:27.:53:33.

of all sort of politicians including the new Labour ministers,

:53:34.:53:35.

plotted their coup against Gordon And talking about Labour

:53:36.:53:41.

and talking about curries, But the most famous Labour meal deal

:53:42.:53:53.

was done back here in Islington at a restaurant called

:53:54.:53:56.

Granita where Blair and Brown sealed their pact

:53:57.:53:59.

for the leadership. It shut down and became a Mexican

:54:00.:54:02.

restaurant called Desperados, And it is now closed

:54:03.:54:05.

down altogether. We are all starving after that!

:54:06.:54:09.

because I'm starving! Joining us now is the Daily

:54:10.:54:19.

Mirror's Kevin Maguire. to decide their stance on the EU

:54:20.:54:30.

referendum, over a slow roasted shoulder of lamb as reported, sounds

:54:31.:54:36.

tasty, do you cut your deals over meals? I think it is useful

:54:37.:54:38.

particularly when the wine flows. You can see why the Independent is

:54:39.:54:55.

closing down because the proprietor of a newspaper is more interested in

:54:56.:55:00.

the food than the conversation as you have two cabinet ministers

:55:01.:55:04.

arguing with a third and plotting coming out against Britain staying

:55:05.:55:08.

in Europe. It is down to the wine rather than the food, tongues get

:55:09.:55:12.

loosened and deals are cut, where would you go, where are the best

:55:13.:55:16.

places to take politicians to hear the best gossip? Go to a noodle bar

:55:17.:55:22.

that nobody knows, off the beaten track but I think the gay huzzah is

:55:23.:55:28.

a fantastic venue. You get a lot of conservative politicians. Michael

:55:29.:55:35.

foot had his own table, he would meet the Russian ambassador. It is

:55:36.:55:40.

not very secret if you have a table. But when you are out in the open is

:55:41.:55:44.

when you can plot the most because nobody thinks you are up to

:55:45.:55:47.

anything. Appearance can be deceptive. Emma, you said you have

:55:48.:55:53.

been to most of those places so you have done a lot of plotting? That is

:55:54.:55:59.

not to say and it is not just in London we have these restaurants.

:56:00.:56:03.

The curry house plot was a Indian restaurant in Wolverhampton. You did

:56:04.:56:10.

not answer the question, you mean you don't do any plotting at all

:56:11.:56:16.

Emma? No, I don't plot, I am a straightforward politician. But I do

:56:17.:56:22.

have meals! LAUGHTER I think one of my old friends said

:56:23.:56:28.

to me when you go into politics you will find you have very few real

:56:29.:56:31.

friends and those are the people who happen to go for lunch order now

:56:32.:56:35.

with. People eat together and discuss politics, we are

:56:36.:56:40.

politicians, that is what we do. How often do you go to arrest wrong with

:56:41.:56:46.

your political friends? Last year, a well-known journalist resigned on a

:56:47.:56:51.

point of principle with his newspaper. He was due to take me to

:56:52.:56:56.

a very smart restaurant which I was looking forward to, some very good

:56:57.:57:00.

fresh. We ended up going to a small and modest bistro in Pimlico with

:57:01.:57:07.

tiny tables and he kept talking in a loud voice and I suddenly realised

:57:08.:57:10.

the whole restaurant was listening to every word, the bill came and I

:57:11.:57:17.

paid. You related luck out. So are you not hatching plots over the EU

:57:18.:57:22.

referendum strategy? They don't have too, it is all out in the open! That

:57:23.:57:27.

is true, it is open and trans Mallon at the moment, is the less political

:57:28.:57:31.

dealing going on in restaurants these days? It is as much as ever,

:57:32.:57:37.

there is less wine at lunch time but it as transfers to the evening.

:57:38.:57:44.

Often you do listen to what is said at other tables, I always assume

:57:45.:57:49.

other people do so you go for a whisper. I recall Cecil Parkinson in

:57:50.:57:54.

the late 80s, he was bad-mouthing Margaret Thatcher and there was a

:57:55.:57:57.

journalist at the following table who took it all down and got a

:57:58.:58:02.

wonderful story. Lunch is on you after the show!

:58:03.:58:05.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:06.:58:08.

The question was who is advising Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party

:58:09.:58:10.

Former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis?

:58:11.:58:14.

Or Chinese Finance Minister Lou Jiwei?

:58:15.:58:16.

So Emma and Owen what's the correct answer?

:58:17.:58:19.

It is Yanis Varoufakis. Are you pleased with that? I don't think I

:58:20.:58:29.

should comment on that. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I am not sure

:58:30.:58:34.

he would be my first choice but it is up to John McDonnell and his

:58:35.:58:40.

team. So you are not a fan? Anti-austerity? John did some good

:58:41.:58:47.

research, seeing people did not vote Labour not because we were

:58:48.:58:50.

anti-austerity but because we were not trusted with people's money...

:58:51.:58:57.

Yanis Varoufakis will not be taking you out for lunch any time soon! I

:58:58.:58:59.

like his jacket!

:59:00.:59:02.

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