01/03/2016 Daily Politics


01/03/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by former London mayor Ken Livingstone and Conservative MP David Davis for the latest political news, including analysis of the Investigatory Powers Bill.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:32.:00:34.

A new law setting out the powers of the police and security services

:00:35.:00:37.

But is it a Snooper's Charter or a vital safeguard

:00:38.:00:42.

The man appointed as the Government's terror watchdog

:00:43.:00:47.

questions whether its strategy to prevent radicalisation is working

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and calls for the Prevent programme to be reviewed -

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French riot police continue to clear the camp at Calais known

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as the Jungle as the migrant crisis sparks violence

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Are we better off in or out of a European Union in crisis?

:01:04.:01:11.

in what's often called a Labour city, we'll look at why the Tories

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have won it twice and Labour only once.

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Why doesn't he split the job of Mayor of London?

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The former Health Secretary can run as his day mayor and the honourable

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member for Brent East can run as his nightmare!

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All that in the next hour and joining me for the duration -

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Tony Blair's night mayor, as William Hague put it there -

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the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone.

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First this afternoon, the Conservative cabinet might be

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split on the issue, but there is unanimity

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in the Shadow Cabinet - Britain should remain

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But how full-throated is the Labour leader's support for our membership?

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At the weekend, he attended a CND rally.

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Critics would have liked him to spend the whole day campaigning

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on Europe, and last night on ITV's The Agenda

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he said he was "not on the same side" as the Prime Minister.

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Can you imagine sharing a stage with David Cameron?

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You're on the same side of the argument for once.

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We're not on the same side of the argument.

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He wants a free-market Europe and has negotiated what he believes

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to be some kind of deal over welfare and also the "ever-closer union",

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which apparently is legally questionable,

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according to Michael Gove. Interesting debate, that.

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I want to see a Europe that is actually about protecting

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our environment, about ensuring sustainable industries across Europe

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- such as the steel industry - and also high levels of jobs

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and social protection across Europe. His agenda is the very opposite.

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That was not very helpful, that intervention, because it is a binary

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choice. You either want to remain or leave. He is on the same side as the

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Prime Minister? I have said for years that if someone had showed me

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our economy would do better if we leave, I would vote to leave. No one

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has come up with that. The double fact is, the insecurity of two years

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of renegotiating all the treaties, we don't want to do a separate

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trade. The real problem is that European bureaucracy has become a

:03:31.:03:33.

nightmare. That is appointed Jeremy has been making for years. It is not

:03:34.:03:38.

open accountable and democratic. We want real reform, not the piffle we

:03:39.:03:44.

have had from Cameron. In a way, he is on the same side. If you look at

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it in terms of the polemic, you either want to stay in or you want

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to leave, but he couldn't bring himself to say that. We are in

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favour staying in, but we also want real change. In a sense, what

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Cameron has come back with is even less effective than what Harold

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Wilson got 40 years ago. This great block should be done away with and

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the elected members of Europe should run it. There should effectively be

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a senate, with each of the 28 member states that having a veto. What

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about Jeremy Corbyn's standing in the Parliamentary either party? He

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did finally attend the first meeting this year of MPs, and reports

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suggest that it didn't go well. Have you spoken to anyone about it? I

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have heard comments from other Labour MPs. There are a lot of

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Labour MPs who cannot come to terms with the fact that the British

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public, at two elections, and the Labour Party membership last summer,

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have turned their back on the old lair nonsense. Loads of people

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stopped me on the street in the last election saying, what did the last

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Labour government informally? It did a lot for the bankers and the elite

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at the top, but we continue to seek millions of jobs lost in

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manufacturing. We didn't build homes that people could afford.

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Effectively, the election of Jeremy was a new start. Then why can't he

:05:07.:05:12.

bring those Labour MPs on board? If it is the case that he is better

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representing Labour Party members and some Labour voters, why do we

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have reports of last night's meeting being amateurish, shambolic,

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painful, patronising? Presumably, Labour MPs still want to win the

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next election. So I can't imagine that they are this unhappy unless

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they genuinely feel it with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. With the four

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elections under Blair and Brown, local Labour parties were not

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allowed to choose the candidate they wanted, they had to choose from an

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approved list, and that list exclude any new people coming in who were

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too left wing or radical, so the Labour Party is completely out of

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kilter with the membership. They have to come to terms with Jeremy,

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not the other way round. Do you think it is difficult and

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frustrating for Labour MPs when they are asked, as they reportedly were

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last night at the metering of Labour MPs, on how they should stick to the

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party message coming from -- you are an MP who spent his career

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rebelling. Then to ask others to be on message will stick in their

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throats. Jeremy and myself report, and we were right. But you did not

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stick to the message. Why should Labour MPs be on message now?

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Because the message Jeremy has got is about rebuilding our economy by

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investing in infrastructure, increasing research. We have been

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going low-wage, low skill, low-tech. That is not the future for an

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advanced capitalist society. You have to be high wage, high skill,

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high tech. Germany exports five times more than we did China. We

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have the biggest trade deficit ever. You can't leave it all to the

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bankers. But has he got the right priorities? If Europe is this

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critical issue, which many feel it is, why was he at a CND rally not

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campaigning with Labour on its Europe Day? Jeremy will be

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campaigning. We have set up our own committee, because we do not want to

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run behind David Cameron. Alan Johnson is leading that. Jeremy and

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I will be part of that. So will John McDonnell. We want to stay in Europe

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because we do not want to see jobs lost and investment reduced. On the

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jobs, you will have heard the Scottish Secretary saying from the

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GMB that posers don't know anything about working-class people with jobs

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in manufacturing and that is why they are campaigning to not renew

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Trident. John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn have a working class

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background. They had to struggle to get where they are today. They are

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not part of the elite that went to private school and then straight

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into Oxbridge. But he said they are out of touch with what people want

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in those working-class communities. I assume you are talking about

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Trident. Once you have built the four Trident submarines, what is the

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next job for those workers? Better to build the ships we need to have a

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credible Navy. You are not convincing the unions. When it comes

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to Jeremy Corbyn's popularity, you have said he better represents

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Labour Party members and some Labour Party voters. If you look at the

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polls, Labour is still way behind. He could become the first opposition

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leader since Michael Foot to fail to make gains in the English council

:08:41.:08:45.

elections. He is not in a strong position. His personal poll ratings

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are worse than Michael Foot. He has had six months of lies and

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distortions by the media. What lies? Oh, that he is a threat to national

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security, a terrorist sympathiser. Literally, that skeletal abuse was

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what I went through at the GLC. But you did win an election and it

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doesn't look as though Jeremy Corbyn will. Jeremy, like me, is not going

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to change policies because of the Tory media. Gradually, we will win

:09:16.:09:21.

public support. If Labour loses in May in those elections, or loses

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council seats, do you think he will be unseated? It is the first test of

:09:30.:09:34.

his leadership. No, the first test of his leadership was the old

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by-election, where we won the biggest share of the vote in 100

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years. That was a Labour hinterland. No, people were saying it might be

:09:44.:09:52.

won by Ukip. So you are expecting there to be big gains? We had our

:09:53.:09:58.

best election for 14 years. It will be a struggle. But at the end of the

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day, we will win an election if we have the right economic policy. We

:10:04.:10:06.

lost last time because we didn't. We have to come up with how you pay for

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this stuff by cracking have to come up with how you pay for

:10:10.:10:12.

Google and Starbucks and those firms that don't pay their fair share of

:10:13.:10:18.

tax. So you still stick to the line that it was because Labour was not

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left wing enough, that was why it in 2015? Your economic policies were

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the reason Labour failed? Back in the 50s and 60s, I can recall that

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Tory governments did investment as well. Since Thatcher and Blair, we

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have neglected investment and if the public sector doesn't provide a

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good, modern transport system, we have pathetic broadband. It is

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appalling compared with what you have in the Far East. If you put

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that infrastructure in, firms will invest. We will talk more about the

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London mayoralty later. which of the following Labour

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politicians has not grown a beard? Liam Byrne, John McDonnell,

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Lord Falconer, or Toby Perkins? At the end of the show,

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Ken Livingstone will give us In the next hour, the Home

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Secretary, Theresa May, will publish revised plans setting

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out powers for the police and security agencies in the UK

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to monitor people's communications The Government says

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the Investigatory Powers Bill, dubbed the "snoopers'

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charter" by critics, will include strengthened

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measures to safeguard privacy - The Investigatory Powers Bill

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is intended to address gaps and overhaul the laws

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governing how the state, police and spies can

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access communications. The Bill requires internet and phone

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companies to keep a record of websites visited by every

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citizen for 12 months. It also lays out powers

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for the security services to perform bulk collection of personal

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communications and data in order A draft version of the Bill

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published in November was criticised by three parliamentary

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committees as "flawed". They were concerned

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that the proposals lacked clarity Today's Bill will address

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some of these issues. The Government says it will include

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stronger controls to "protect

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freedom of speech and privacy". Ministers want the measures

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on the statute book by the end

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of the year - a timetable who say the plans are

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being rushed through. And we're joined now by backbench

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Conservative MP David Davis, a long time critic of the extent

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of the surveillance powers. The government says it has listened

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to concerns and made the necessary changes and has done what you and

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others have demanded. Why aren't you satisfied? Well, at the moment, we

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haven't seen the bill. Perhaps it is appropriately secret at the moment.

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It is a huge bill, for a start. It has taken about

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It is a huge bill, for a start. It mechanisms that were previously

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used, and it will have a whole series of criticisms to meet. I

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could sit here for hours talking about it, but let's pick one, the

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intercept approvals by the Home Secretary. She does about 2700 a

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year on about ten a day. How on earth is that the way for a

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democracy to control intrusion, bugging someone like Ken

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Livingstone? But judicial authorisation of warrants, you said

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that would be nine tenths of the way there when we spoke to you about

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this. There is going to be judicial authorisation. There will be this

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ball knock procedure, as they call it, intended to ensure that

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intercept warrants will have to be signed by a judge -- a double knock

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procedure. There is a great debate after the very is committed

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commented about whether or not the check carried out by the judges is

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anything more than a sort of, is this a ridiculous action. I want the

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judge to take the time, a security cleared judge who has done this

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hundreds of time to repair times, and do it properly, not just

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rubber-stamp the Home Secretary's decision, which is what is

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happening. Home Secretary first, judge second. Why are you so sure

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there would not overrule the Home Secretary? Are judges really going

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to put their credibility on the line and literally took another box?

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Judges do that all the time, when they either convict or in some great

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people who go through their courts. -- exoneration. There was a judge

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who released on bail one person accused of terror is. You could say

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that was taking a risk, but the guy was exonerated. They take those

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decisions all the time. That is what judges do. But what sort of

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guarantees do you want? If they have given you judicial authorisation,

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you say it is not thorough enough. What evidence do you want?

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At the moment the judges are just checking for a ridiculous decision.

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Look at the facts... If they did that it would be different. I would

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rather have it the other way round, judge first and not the Home

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Secretary. It would be an improvement. Would it satisfy you do

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have a judge not just rubber-stamping but checking? I

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trust the judgment of a judge over the Home Secretary but if we look

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back over the years, I'm not complaining about bumping me but

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Harriet Harman, what she threaten action on security? I want more

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scrutiny of the security services. All she spent her life doing was

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sailing, we need more women in various places. That is not a threat

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to national security. The government and those supporting the bill will

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say in the meantime while this discussion is happening they need to

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plug the gap in surveillance because lives are at risk. One of the things

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the Home Secretary herself has said is that this recognises existing

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powers. Nothing is being held up, this is going on while we sit here.

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It proves Edward Snowden was telling the truth. We are seeing it now. The

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government has a mandate to do this, it is in the manifesto and there was

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support in the Parliamentary party. In the public's eyes, I don't have

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the statistics but I would suggest that if they are presented with an

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either or, they will go for more surveillance. This is a 250 plus

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page bill that will be pushed through the house quickly. There

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won't be time for even MPs do understand it all, let alone members

:17:17.:17:19.

of the public. If you went out in the street and asked a hundred

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people, would they even know what it was? What about data collection and

:17:24.:17:31.

the holding of data. It is not going to play ball anyway, so it won't

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quite be the free for all that you and others are saying. They will

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have all of this unnecessarily collected data and people will be

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unhappy about this, why should they be holding vital bits of information

:17:43.:17:46.

as they would see it but actually everyday bits of information to you

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and me? It is not just about holding data about how they access it. At

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the moment you get approval from other officials in the same

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organisation. This is about controlling people's privacy. And

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controlling access to data, that is a bigger issue than the amount of

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data being held. The companies themselves will prove difficult,

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there is a battle going on at the moment between Apple and the FBI and

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Apple are doing it because of what their customers want. The public are

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voting with their wallets. With these extra powers have helped to

:18:23.:18:28.

prevent 7/7? Not really, because you can get most people... If something

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is thrown up there will always be a small number that get through. The

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Metropolitan Police were doing good surveillance but these four came

:18:41.:18:44.

from outside London and we did not have that data. Increasingly

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terrorism will be the act of an individual, not someone who is part

:18:48.:18:52.

of a network. If it is a conspiracy, that you can access. A security

:18:53.:18:59.

measure stopping people on our streets or a paedophile, it is about

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whether it actually works. That is the problem. The number of security

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specialists think it is detrimental because there is too much

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information. A targeted approach is better. Most of the examples Theresa

:19:16.:19:20.

May gave when she turned up in front of the joint committee were

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targeted, not widespread. How critical and issue is this? It's

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very important. There is another for a new consensus, this is not a left

:19:32.:19:38.

right issue, there are issues about what will actually work and catch

:19:39.:19:42.

terrorists and it can be done. Should Eurosceptic ministers be

:19:43.:19:45.

allowed access to government briefings? Of course they should.

:19:46.:19:54.

The government has a position... The government wishes to remain at the

:19:55.:20:01.

top civil servant... People cannot use the civil service to try to win

:20:02.:20:05.

a general election. Much of the argument is about immigration and

:20:06.:20:08.

welfare and so on and his department is not allowed to tell him about

:20:09.:20:14.

what his job is. It is ridiculous. Do you agree with William Hague that

:20:15.:20:20.

these are irrelevant to voters? It is a very Blairite view, the process

:20:21.:20:25.

does not matter. People will smell something, is it a fair process? If

:20:26.:20:29.

they come to that conclusion they lost believing the government

:20:30.:20:35.

altogether. If the government thinks that is true, why not let people see

:20:36.:20:40.

it? My worry is that they are keeping this away from Iain Duncan

:20:41.:20:43.

Smith because he may be able to demonstrate it is a load of old

:20:44.:20:50.

Tosh. We are staying with the issue of security.

:20:51.:20:55.

The Government's independent reviewer of terrorism legislation,

:20:56.:20:56.

David Anderson, has told the Daily Politics that there needs

:20:57.:20:59.

of the controversial Prevent programme.

:21:00.:21:01.

Prevent is designed to guard against home grown terrorism,

:21:02.:21:03.

but has been blamed for alienating the communities it is supposed

:21:04.:21:06.

Here's David Anderson's assessment of whether the Government is getting

:21:07.:21:09.

the right balance between civil liberties and security.

:21:10.:21:15.

Stopping the kind of terrorist attacks we saw in London in 2005.

:21:16.:21:19.

Good afternoon to you from Westminster.

:21:20.:21:22.

Central London has been rocked by a series of terrorist attacks...

:21:23.:21:26.

Over a decade on, 7/7 remains the worst terrorist attack ever

:21:27.:21:30.

to take place on mainland Britain, with just two people murdered since.

:21:31.:21:38.

That may suggest that our politicians brought in the necessary

:21:39.:21:43.

laws and powers of surveillance to make Britain a safer place,

:21:44.:21:45.

but we experience credible terrorist attack plots every year.

:21:46.:21:48.

But recently, they have become more frequent and more diverse.

:21:49.:21:51.

The unusual thing about my job is that I'm completely independent

:21:52.:21:55.

of Government, and yet I have unrestricted access to secret

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It may no longer be enough for ministers to say,

:21:58.:22:05.

"If you'd seen what I've seen...", because I've seen it too.

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If powers are needlessly strict, they can be counter-productive

:22:10.:22:12.

But if they're relaxed too far, they may expose us

:22:13.:22:17.

My predecessor, Alex Carlile, had to respond to a Government

:22:18.:22:20.

which wanted to bring in measures like 90 days'

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This is an occasion in which it is important that we do

:22:23.:22:31.

what is responsible, what is right and what is necessary

:22:32.:22:33.

There was consistency throughout the time from 2001 until 2010,

:22:34.:22:42.

when there was a Labour government and there was no real change at any

:22:43.:22:45.

time in counterterrorism policy, apart from that that

:22:46.:22:48.

My term of office started with the formation of a coalition

:22:49.:22:55.

government, whose own counterterrorism review was billed

:22:56.:22:56.

as a correction in favour of liberty.

:22:57.:23:02.

This bill is necessary precisely because public safety is enhanced,

:23:03.:23:04.

not diminished, by having appropriate and proportionate

:23:05.:23:06.

Last year, I produced my biggest report to date

:23:07.:23:12.

The law, it seemed to me, was outdated, obscure

:23:13.:23:18.

things that Parliament simply didn't know about,

:23:19.:23:19.

The draft bill that resulted was huge, and it's already been

:23:20.:23:28.

knocked about a bit by Parliamentary committees.

:23:29.:23:29.

It has to be Parliament that decides what powers the agencies should have

:23:30.:23:38.

and what safeguards there should be on those powers.

:23:39.:23:40.

If you let go of that, you can kiss goodbye

:23:41.:23:42.

I also have to look at Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act.

:23:43.:23:56.

That gives police at the ports, airports and international rail

:23:57.:23:59.

terminals the power to stop people, search them, detain them for to six

:24:00.:24:02.

hours and even download their phones.

:24:03.:24:03.

All those things, they can do without the need for suspicion.

:24:04.:24:06.

Schedule 7 is extremely useful to the police.

:24:07.:24:08.

But it's also a significant source of resentment in some quarters.

:24:09.:24:11.

So here at St Pancras, and indeed everywhere else,

:24:12.:24:13.

it's important that the power is applied in a targeted way

:24:14.:24:16.

Muslim communities always want to talk to me about Prevent,

:24:17.:24:30.

to the ideological challenge of terrorism.

:24:31.:24:37.

Most things about Prevent are classified.

:24:38.:24:42.

Some people say the laws are heavy-handed, or they are used,

:24:43.:24:45.

for example by teachers, in a way that unfairly targets

:24:46.:24:53.

interest it is to divide communities rather than unite them.

:24:54.:25:02.

some person or body of people ought to have the power to do for Prevent

:25:03.:25:05.

what I do for the counterterrorism laws.

:25:06.:25:09.

While in Bolton, I also spoke to Yasmin Qureshi about the Prevent

:25:10.:25:11.

It's making communities distrustful of the police and the authorities,

:25:12.:25:20.

If people have views which are at variance with the norm,

:25:21.:25:28.

we need to be able to challenge it, not hide it.

:25:29.:25:32.

The threat has developed significantly because of Isil.

:25:33.:25:35.

We didn't know, for example, when I was involved in developing

:25:36.:25:44.

and to spread terrorism onto a wider stage.

:25:45.:25:55.

Well, if it was, I wouldn't have taken the job.

:25:56.:26:00.

Some of my recommendations are accepted straight

:26:01.:26:01.

Others find their way into judgments of the higher courts.

:26:02.:26:06.

But above all, I try to serve Parliament and its committees

:26:07.:26:09.

by reporting on things that they're not allowed to see.

:26:10.:26:14.

If I can inform the public and political debate on these

:26:15.:26:17.

sensitive issues, then I'm doing my job.

:26:18.:26:21.

And we're joined now by David Anderson,

:26:22.:26:24.

and by Conservative MP Victoria Atkins, a member

:26:25.:26:27.

of the Home Affairs Select Committee.

:26:28.:26:31.

Welcome to both of you. David Anderson, how did you get to be the

:26:32.:26:37.

end independent reviewer? I was tapped on the shoulder by three

:26:38.:26:43.

secret men in raincoats. They pretended they wanted legal advice

:26:44.:26:46.

and in fact they had come to offer me a job. Next time I'm told it will

:26:47.:26:52.

be a public procedure. With application forms and it will be

:26:53.:26:55.

transparent. Is that the right way to go? That is the way we have to

:26:56.:27:01.

go. It sounds like something out of a Cold War spy movie. In terms of

:27:02.:27:07.

the balance between liberty and People's rights and security, do you

:27:08.:27:14.

think the balance is about right? Has it tipped one way because of the

:27:15.:27:19.

threat from Isil? One gauge is talking to communities who are most

:27:20.:27:22.

affected by these laws and seeing what is on their minds. Five years

:27:23.:27:28.

ago I heard a lot about no suspicion stop and search which happened under

:27:29.:27:33.

the terrorism act and schedule seven, the power that the police

:27:34.:27:37.

have, but nowadays I don't hear so much about them. Stop and search

:27:38.:27:41.

power has been removed altogether and schedule seven is not used

:27:42.:27:45.

anywhere near as much and it is used in a more effective and targeted

:27:46.:27:50.

way. I hear about the Prevent agenda. It is supposed to be about

:27:51.:27:54.

making friends and living harmoniously but at the moment it is

:27:55.:27:58.

causing most upset. Why do you think it hasn't worked in terms of

:27:59.:28:04.

creating harmonious community relations? The problem is that it's

:28:05.:28:08.

not transparent and nobody really knows what's going on under Prevent.

:28:09.:28:16.

There are myths about training would the biased about Muslims for

:28:17.:28:22.

example. People say that horrible teachers have overreacted and

:28:23.:28:24.

referred innocent four-year-olds to the police. Some of those stories

:28:25.:28:29.

may be true and others may have been exaggerated but in a sense it is

:28:30.:28:33.

secondary. People are worried and quite frightened and it seems that

:28:34.:28:36.

what you need is somebody independent to come along as I was

:28:37.:28:40.

saying in the film to really look at it and sort out what's going on and

:28:41.:28:44.

how it could be done better. Should it be part of your job? I don't

:28:45.:28:51.

think so, is fine for looking at ministerial discretions and so on

:28:52.:28:55.

but you need a much broader range of expertise, somebody who knows about

:28:56.:28:59.

prisons and schools and people from affecting communities because you

:29:00.:29:03.

have to have trust. When politicians talk about six credible terror

:29:04.:29:07.

threats last year, what do they mean? How serious are they? The

:29:08.:29:12.

first thing is to remind them that in the same year there were 22 is

:29:13.:29:17.

accessible terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland. That puts it into

:29:18.:29:22.

context. MI5 will say they have stopped 34 times that many in

:29:23.:29:27.

London. Sadly it is still the case. They are right when they talk about

:29:28.:29:30.

six or seven attempts that were foiled. Nowadays you are looking at

:29:31.:29:37.

quite a range, most of them would be closer to the DIY terrorism which we

:29:38.:29:42.

see now, not just from Islamists but extreme right groups as well. There

:29:43.:29:46.

is now a range from what we saw in other countries, like the marauding

:29:47.:29:50.

attacks in France and targeted attacks on Jews. And on free speech,

:29:51.:29:58.

Charlie Hebdo, and so on. Twice in three months we have seen bombs on

:29:59.:30:02.

airliners, the Somali airliner and the Russian plane that took off from

:30:03.:30:08.

Sharm el-Sheikh. How do we approach terrorism? Is it very different in

:30:09.:30:14.

France compared to here? Is that why we haven't had, thank goodness, a

:30:15.:30:16.

similar style attack in London? We have to be careful about being

:30:17.:30:25.

smug about this, because there were no terrorist attacks in France

:30:26.:30:29.

between 1996 and 2012, and everyone was saying, why don't we do it like

:30:30.:30:33.

the French? But since last November, the French are in a very unhappy

:30:34.:30:37.

place. They have a state of emergency. They are conducting

:30:38.:30:41.

warrantless searches. Large numbers of people are under curfew and house

:30:42.:30:46.

arrest. And so far, we have managed to stick to our ancient principles

:30:47.:30:50.

of policing by consent, which I don't think are alive and well in

:30:51.:30:54.

the same way in Paris. Talking about leadership in other European

:30:55.:30:58.

countries, you recently described the UK as having enjoyed a position

:30:59.:31:02.

of leadership as far as terrorism policy is concerned. Could that be

:31:03.:31:07.

replicated outside the EU? No. It is one of those areas in Europe where

:31:08.:31:12.

we have taken the lead, perhaps because we have been more interested

:31:13.:31:16.

and preoccupied by the subject for longer than most other countries. So

:31:17.:31:20.

if it is a question of aviation security or how you analyse the

:31:21.:31:23.

threat or trying to ensure that people retain the data they need to

:31:24.:31:30.

detect terrace or serious crime, the UK has been making the running in

:31:31.:31:33.

Europe and others who have come behind. But we could still have

:31:34.:31:38.

tools like the European arrest warrant and sharing of databases

:31:39.:31:43.

even if the UK left the EU. That is likely, although let's not forget

:31:44.:31:45.

that the director of Europol said that that would be more costly and

:31:46.:31:50.

certainly less effective. The broader point is that we would need

:31:51.:31:53.

to take what we were given. That might be good and useful, but you

:31:54.:31:57.

could say it is not as good or as useful as designing the policies

:31:58.:32:03.

that the whole continent adopts. Let's pick up some of the comments

:32:04.:32:08.

on Prevent. Do you agree with David Anderson that there should be an

:32:09.:32:13.

independence grew junior of Prevent? It is something the home affairs

:32:14.:32:16.

select committee is looking at at the moment. We must be careful not

:32:17.:32:20.

to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think it is a great thing

:32:21.:32:24.

that we have a programme to reach out to young people to help parents,

:32:25.:32:31.

when they are worried about their children. One of the common

:32:32.:32:36.

misconceptions about Channel is that it comes in for criticism because of

:32:37.:32:42.

various stories that have emerged. But actually, Channel is a voluntary

:32:43.:32:45.

service and a young person can only be referred to it with the parent's

:32:46.:32:50.

consent. But the issue raised by David Anderson is one of

:32:51.:32:53.

transparency. If we don't know what Prevent is doing or how successful

:32:54.:32:57.

it has been or what his agenda is, how can it be judged? Well, there

:32:58.:33:04.

are many voices that are very noisy at the moment about Prevent. Think

:33:05.:33:09.

sometimes, we have heard from some of those voices in the home affairs

:33:10.:33:13.

select committee in our work looking at this, and some of those voices

:33:14.:33:17.

crowd out the work going on on the ground. For example, more than 285

:33:18.:33:22.

mosques are working with the Prevent scheme, 800 schools and colleges,

:33:23.:33:32.

100 faith groups. I understand that we perhaps need to sell it better,

:33:33.:33:36.

not just two communities directly affected by Prevent, but the whole

:33:37.:33:40.

of the country. But we mustn't stop talking to these children and young

:33:41.:33:45.

people, because what is the alternative? One of the complaints

:33:46.:33:48.

from a member of the Muslim community that came onto the

:33:49.:33:51.

programme said that they felt they were outside the Prevent strategy

:33:52.:33:54.

and were not part of the discussions about how to deal with the

:33:55.:34:02.

communities. Well, this is a long term project. Where criticisms are

:34:03.:34:06.

being voiced, we should take those on board. But Prevent is about

:34:07.:34:11.

safeguarding our young people, and we must bear that in mind. Is it fit

:34:12.:34:18.

for purpose, Prevent? I don't think so. After the 7/7 bombings, the

:34:19.:34:25.

police did not stop a single attack on a Muslim. In the last few years,

:34:26.:34:29.

there has been a huge increase in Islamophobic incidents. And it is

:34:30.:34:33.

not just Muslim terrorists. We have a lot of far right individuals,

:34:34.:34:38.

bringing in arms by post from abroad. But all you hearing the

:34:39.:34:44.

media is Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, and it is alienating people. Prevent is

:34:45.:34:48.

also about preventing youngsters from going on a very dark path. In

:34:49.:34:54.

that sense, it has failed, because we hear reports all the time. But we

:34:55.:34:59.

only hear when has not worked, we don't hear about the success

:35:00.:35:03.

stories. Are you saying there would have been more people going to Syria

:35:04.:35:06.

to fight for Isil if not for Prevent? We have heard from

:35:07.:35:10.

witnesses who consider it to be a very useful tool in helping direct

:35:11.:35:16.

young people away from negative influences, sometimes on the

:35:17.:35:20.

computer in their bedroom or their iPad. We have to tackle this. We

:35:21.:35:26.

can't just criticise it. Victoria is right, there is an Prevent shaped

:35:27.:35:31.

space. Ibrahim Anderson, my namesake was committed a few weeks ago for

:35:32.:35:34.

soliciting members for Isis, it came out during his trial that he had

:35:35.:35:37.

been photographing his six-year-old and eight-year-old sons in front of

:35:38.:35:40.

the black flag, holding swords and pointing at heaven. One would hope

:35:41.:35:44.

that any responsible schoolteacher might at least have half an eye open

:35:45.:35:48.

for that sort of thing. The problem with Prevent is that it has become a

:35:49.:35:52.

sort of lightning conductor for a lot of dissatisfaction. And one of

:35:53.:35:56.

the reasons for that, I'm afraid, is that a lot of Muslims in this

:35:57.:35:59.

country do not feel engaged with. They feel the government is talking

:36:00.:36:05.

to a limited range of people, and if they are going to solve things

:36:06.:36:11.

together against the men of violence at the outer edges, you have to talk

:36:12.:36:19.

to people. Let's talk briefly about the Investigatory Powers Bill. Does

:36:20.:36:23.

that have your support now? It has been revised, according to the

:36:24.:36:27.

government. We just heard from David Davis that he feels it's not going

:36:28.:36:30.

far enough in terms of judicial oversight. There is one good thing

:36:31.:36:34.

about the Investigatory Powers Bill, which makes it the much unique in

:36:35.:36:40.

the world, and that is that all the powers that the agencies and the

:36:41.:36:43.

police have and aspire to our set out clearly, in a way that can be

:36:44.:36:48.

debated democratically in Parliament. That is incredibly

:36:49.:36:51.

unusual in the world, and it was brave even to attempt it. It was my

:36:52.:36:55.

recommendation that we should, and I think it has been done triumphantly.

:36:56.:36:59.

There are a lot of details to argue about. The bill is not the finished

:37:00.:37:04.

article, but that is what Parliament is full. Parliament needs to decide

:37:05.:37:07.

whether we are prepared for people to keep a record of our internet

:37:08.:37:11.

browsing history, and if not, Parliament will also decide

:37:12.:37:14.

browsing history, and if not, will not become part of the

:37:15.:37:17.

Now - riot police are supporting demolition teams as they continue

:37:18.:37:21.

to dismantle shelters in the Calais migrant camp known as the Jungle.

:37:22.:37:24.

This follows scenes of violence overnight,

:37:25.:37:26.

with police firing tear gas as migrants hurled stones.

:37:27.:37:28.

the migrants must move to shipping containers on another part

:37:29.:37:32.

They don't want to be registered as asylum seekers in France,

:37:33.:37:37.

and are instead desperate to travel to Britain.

:37:38.:37:46.

Our correspondent is in Calais. What is going on behind you? As far as

:37:47.:37:54.

many of the migrants are concerned, this place represents their best

:37:55.:37:57.

chances of making it across the Channel to the UK. Today, things are

:37:58.:38:05.

moving fast. Yesterday, all of this was tense and wooden homes. Last

:38:06.:38:11.

night, we were here as the police through these tear gas canisters

:38:12.:38:15.

into the camp to try to clear the protesters, people trying to repel

:38:16.:38:19.

the demolition workers. Now they are progressing through

:38:20.:38:25.

the demolition workers. Now they are speed. The authorities said

:38:26.:38:27.

bulldozers would not be used and that they would use a softly-softly

:38:28.:38:30.

approach. That is not what we have been witnessing in the Jungle. So

:38:31.:38:34.

the riot police came in first this morning to clear the way. You can

:38:35.:38:39.

see that there are still some migrants on site, but most have

:38:40.:38:41.

moved from the southern section towards the north. Many have gone

:38:42.:38:47.

elsewhere already. They have gone to another camp with even worse

:38:48.:38:55.

conditions in nearby Dunkerque. What has their response been? And what

:38:56.:39:02.

about those still there? I was speaking to one man an hour or so

:39:03.:39:06.

ago. He came from Sudan. He said that he feared for his life. He said

:39:07.:39:11.

he had fled this kind of thing in his own country and he did not

:39:12.:39:14.

expect to find it in Europe. He said he tried to cross the Channel 20

:39:15.:39:19.

times since he has been here. He has tried on trains and lorries, like so

:39:20.:39:24.

many. That is one of the reasons they are trying to clear this

:39:25.:39:28.

Jungle. They are trying to demolish it to act as a deterrent, to

:39:29.:39:33.

dissuade others from following this well trodden path. They are also

:39:34.:39:43.

trying to stop people from risking their lives, because they believe

:39:44.:39:48.

that if they come here, they have a chance of getting to the UK. So they

:39:49.:39:51.

are trying to push them elsewhere. The question on the minds of so many

:39:52.:39:56.

is, where will they go now if there is no room at Dunkerque, which we

:39:57.:39:59.

have been told by the migrants is run mostly by violent people

:40:00.:40:02.

smugglers? Where will they go next? I'm joined now in the studio

:40:03.:40:04.

by Ukip's spokeswoman on home Is it your belief that if we weren't

:40:05.:40:16.

in the EU, we wouldn't be seeing these scenes in Calais? Yes, I

:40:17.:40:21.

believe it is. Why? Well, the draw for these migrants is an economic

:40:22.:40:27.

future in the United Kingdom. They have gone all the way across Europe.

:40:28.:40:33.

They have got in either via Lesbos, the Mediterranean roots, or the

:40:34.:40:36.

Balkan route. They have then either been trafficked or made their own

:40:37.:40:41.

way all the way to Calais and Dunkerque, and they are there

:40:42.:40:44.

because they see an economic future in the UK. What difference would it

:40:45.:40:48.

make if we were not in the EU in terms of migrants trying to get over

:40:49.:40:53.

to the UK? I am not following your point. If we were out of the EU,

:40:54.:40:57.

migrants would still want to come to Britain. Why would it be more

:40:58.:41:01.

difficult for them if we were outside the EU? What I do have hoped

:41:02.:41:06.

would have happened by now is that those individuals, instead of

:41:07.:41:09.

risking their lives, would apply by legal means to come to the United

:41:10.:41:15.

Kingdom. And if are out of the European Union, they then clearly

:41:16.:41:19.

would not be able to get as far as they could in terms of the Channel

:41:20.:41:23.

ports. Do you agree with that assessment? I think that if we leave

:41:24.:41:28.

Europe, it will make no difference. These people have trekked all the

:41:29.:41:31.

way across Europe because they want to come to Britain, because Britain

:41:32.:41:34.

is seen as the best of the European countries to bring your kids up in

:41:35.:41:38.

and it is the most open and delete intolerant about Muslims. -- the

:41:39.:41:44.

least intolerant about Muslims. And we are largely responsible for this.

:41:45.:41:51.

The Americans wanted to overthrow Assad and Gaddafi, and they did get

:41:52.:41:54.

rid of Saddam Hussein. It has been catastrophic. Frankly, it is worse

:41:55.:42:01.

off now if you are a Libyan, Iraqi or Syria than it was before. Our

:42:02.:42:05.

interventions have been a disaster. That is the foreign policy argument

:42:06.:42:10.

as you see it for the cause of the wave of migration. Are you convinced

:42:11.:42:13.

that it wouldn't change it if Britain pulls out of the EU? You

:42:14.:42:19.

think these scenes will carry on? It could get worse, because there will

:42:20.:42:22.

be a lot of people in European governments saying, why should we do

:42:23.:42:26.

anything for Britain? Well, I obviously disagree. They have got to

:42:27.:42:31.

Calais on the basis that they have managed to breach the European

:42:32.:42:36.

frontiers. The Schengen system allows them to then get as far as

:42:37.:42:41.

they did. Possibly the only area where we might agree, let's take

:42:42.:42:49.

that out of the equation. The issue is that they get into Europe and

:42:50.:42:53.

they then get as far as they do on the basis that there is no border

:42:54.:42:56.

control. There is no passport control. But they would still be

:42:57.:43:00.

able to do that, even if we have left. We are not disagreeing. So it

:43:01.:43:07.

will not really change the situation. We are not part of

:43:08.:43:11.

Schengen anyway. As you say, many of these migrants are wanting to just

:43:12.:43:15.

get to Britain to live and work. They are not interested in the rest

:43:16.:43:19.

of Europe. And that would not change. No, but there is this cohort

:43:20.:43:24.

that are so focused on getting to the UK that they are prepared to put

:43:25.:43:29.

themselves at that degree of risk. Thousands of individuals are

:43:30.:43:33.

arriving either on the Macedonian border or on the Greek islands, and

:43:34.:43:37.

we have no idea what proportion of those are still prepared to take the

:43:38.:43:42.

next level of risk and get all the way to Calais and Dunkerque. But it

:43:43.:43:47.

hasn't affected the UK. These are desperate scenes on mainland Europe,

:43:48.:43:49.

but in terms of the numbers of people that have made it to Britain

:43:50.:43:53.

as a result of the migrant crisis and have actually been accepted

:43:54.:43:57.

either as asylum seekers and refugees, hasn't really changed

:43:58.:44:04.

since this has erupted. Firstly, your questions ought to be directed

:44:05.:44:08.

at the county council, that is having to look after children and

:44:09.:44:13.

home some of these people -- Kent County Council. You also ought to

:44:14.:44:17.

talk to Kent Police, who have to manage these individuals when they

:44:18.:44:20.

jump out of the two service stations from lorries they have hidden in.

:44:21.:44:24.

You also have to talk to somebody like the head of Eurostar and

:44:25.:44:27.

Eurotunnel, who has seen a begin pack on their business on the basis

:44:28.:44:31.

that trains are being stopped -- it has had a begin pack. But the

:44:32.:44:35.

figures do not back that up. There were 25,000 asylum application from

:44:36.:44:42.

a applicants in the year ending June 2000 15. Only 2000 of those were

:44:43.:44:46.

from Syria. The number of applications remains low relative to

:44:47.:44:51.

the number of applications in 2002. Your issue is with asylum seekers.

:44:52.:44:55.

We are not talking about them, we are talking about individuals who

:44:56.:45:00.

are a number of European heads of state have said are economic

:45:01.:45:03.

migrants. We have had interviews and we have seen press coverage and we

:45:04.:45:06.

have heard individuals talking about the reason they want to get to the

:45:07.:45:10.

UK being nothing to do with asylum. They are going because they believe

:45:11.:45:13.

they can get a job, a better standard of living or they are

:45:14.:45:18.

entitled to benefits. But would you agree that if we were not part of

:45:19.:45:22.

the EU, would have less influence on discussions to do with the migrant

:45:23.:45:28.

crisis? Not at all. We have an opt out of the Schengen agreement. We

:45:29.:45:33.

are signed up to the UN Convention on asylum processing and management.

:45:34.:45:38.

So in terms of our role in or out of the European Union, I would rather

:45:39.:45:43.

go with those two issues, rather than follow something the EU is

:45:44.:45:53.

trying to manufacture. Will it be part of your campaign? Migration and

:45:54.:45:57.

lack of border control, yes, of course that is an important point

:45:58.:46:02.

here. It is, the lack of border control... The migrant crisis... It

:46:03.:46:09.

is about the uncontrolled migration to the United Kingdom. Germany has

:46:10.:46:15.

been criticised and also praised for the decision and the announcement by

:46:16.:46:19.

Angela Merkel to say, Syrian refugees are welcome here. Do you

:46:20.:46:27.

think as the migrant crisis unfolds and the pressure on countries like

:46:28.:46:31.

Italy, Greece and Macedonia, that it was the wrong thing to say? No,

:46:32.:46:36.

Greece and Macedonia cannot cope, there has to be a Europe-wide

:46:37.:46:41.

response and each country has to take their fair share of genuine

:46:42.:46:46.

asylum seekers. The worries that you have is that anyone in the other 27

:46:47.:46:53.

European countries is free to come here. Asylum seekers represent an

:46:54.:46:57.

minute part of migration coming to Britain. Most of it is legal and

:46:58.:47:03.

from the rest of Europe. In the case of Macedonia is it right that they

:47:04.:47:08.

have taken a hard line? They describe 400 men trying to break

:47:09.:47:12.

through before they had been registered. Is that the right way to

:47:13.:47:17.

go? I think it is, Macedonia happens to be one of seven Schengen members

:47:18.:47:22.

that has temporarily, I will put that in quotes, reintroduced border

:47:23.:47:31.

control. The Schengen agreement was effectively a passport to allow

:47:32.:47:35.

extremism and terrorism to the passport free right across Europe.

:47:36.:47:42.

You have the head of an organisation such as that, an organisation with a

:47:43.:47:46.

huge amount of authority, making that statement, what Macedonia has

:47:47.:47:52.

done is spot on. Even using tear gas to control crowds? Fire that small

:47:53.:47:57.

children? I don't know the exact details. On the basis of what you

:47:58.:48:01.

have said, if they have used tear gas, maybe they

:48:02.:48:04.

have said, if they have used tear option. I don't agree. You don't

:48:05.:48:07.

think tear gas should be used. The complaint is that large groups have

:48:08.:48:09.

been pending for so long that complaint is that large groups have

:48:10.:48:15.

frustration is now overflowing and erupting, so they tried to push

:48:16.:48:24.

through. What do you say to that? This awful anarchist organisation

:48:25.:48:29.

called No Borders, currently creating trouble in Calais, has not

:48:30.:48:30.

made it to Macedonia. Quite frankly creating trouble in Calais, has not

:48:31.:48:36.

the mayhem they have caused over the past few months in Calais for

:48:37.:48:40.

example, if they were to replicate that in Macedonia or Lesbos,

:48:41.:48:46.

goodness knows. It's a shameful reflection on the UK. Would you open

:48:47.:48:50.

the doors and would you like to see the government welcoming large

:48:51.:48:53.

numbers of migrants in the way Angela Merkel has done in Germany?

:48:54.:48:57.

There is a real problem that the pressure we have got on

:48:58.:49:00.

There is a real problem that the homes, unless the government is

:49:01.:49:03.

prepared to create more jobs and homes it will be hugely contentious.

:49:04.:49:08.

You don't think it's a good idea? These asylum seekers have taken our

:49:09.:49:14.

jobs and homes... The truth is that Labour and Tory governments haven't

:49:15.:49:19.

created enough. Would you now say, let's take in 20,000, 30,000, 40,000

:49:20.:49:26.

Syrian migrants or Iraqis but Mark I come from Brent and when we have a

:49:27.:49:32.

crisis in 72 when Ugandans were kicked out of their country, the

:49:33.:49:35.

Edward Heath government asked councils like Brent to take 10000

:49:36.:49:39.

and they gave financial support to build homes. -- or Iraqis? If people

:49:40.:49:48.

are coming you have to plan and build homes and make sure more jobs

:49:49.:49:52.

will be created. That is the problem, we have a system as was

:49:53.:49:56.

shown last week with the statistics, we can't control our borders so we

:49:57.:50:01.

can't control the numbers coming in and plan accordingly. No responsible

:50:02.:50:05.

government should be constantly looking backwards and saying, hold

:50:06.:50:10.

on, our policy will be catching up. That is currently what the situation

:50:11.:50:11.

is. Now - our Guest of the Day,

:50:12.:50:15.

Ken Livingstone, is perhaps best It's often said that the capital

:50:16.:50:18.

is a Labour city - the party has most of the city's MPs

:50:19.:50:23.

and assembly members - but it's actually only

:50:24.:50:26.

won the mayoralty once, Ken standing as an independent

:50:27.:50:28.

in the first contest in 2000. and exciting innovation

:50:29.:50:32.

for Londoners. If there's a big turnout

:50:33.:50:55.

and there is a yes vote, He wanted to be Labour's candidate.

:50:56.:50:57.

banked on was this man, and pushed his then Health Secretary

:50:58.:51:22.

Frank Dobson instead. Why doesn't he split the job

:51:23.:51:24.

of Mayor for London? The former Health Secretary can run

:51:25.:51:29.

as his day mayor and the honourable

:51:30.:51:32.

member for Brent East He's thinking

:51:33.:51:33.

about it, I can tell! So when Ken Livingstone wasn't

:51:34.:51:41.

selected as Labour's candidate, He lost the Labour whip,

:51:42.:51:50.

but he won the election. As I was saying before

:51:51.:51:57.

I was so rudely interrupted Incidentally, the campaign hadn't

:51:58.:52:00.

been great fun Their original candidate,

:52:01.:52:04.

one Jeffrey Archer, had rather unceremoniously bowed out

:52:05.:52:10.

following those perjury charges. He was replaced by Steve Norris,

:52:11.:52:12.

who decided to run again in 2004. By that time, Ken

:52:13.:52:18.

Livingstone had been welcomed back I always said Ken would

:52:19.:52:20.

make a great mayor. But fast forward four years,

:52:21.:52:27.

and a new Tory kid on the block. It was a hard-fought

:52:28.:52:42.

campaign, And as for Ken, Mayor Livingstone,

:52:43.:52:44.

I can tell you that your courage with which you stuck it

:52:45.:52:48.

to your enemies, especially in New Labour,

:52:49.:52:52.

you have thereby earned the thanks and admiration of millions

:52:53.:52:55.

of Londoners, even if you may think

:52:56.:52:58.

that they have a funny way Boris "hung on" four years later,

:52:59.:53:00.

once again beating Ken Livingstone So in 16 years, London has

:53:01.:53:15.

had just two mayors. Come May, there will

:53:16.:53:19.

have to be a third. is a former Conservative mayoral

:53:20.:53:25.

candidate who faced Ken Livingstone twice -

:53:26.:53:34.

in 2000 and 20004. Welcome to the programme,

:53:35.:53:36.

Steve Norris. Is London a Labour City? You look at

:53:37.:53:46.

the number of seats and the way they performed at local elections

:53:47.:53:49.

recently, it is a Labour City? If you look at the difference between

:53:50.:53:53.

what Labour got in the general election and in London it is quite

:53:54.:54:00.

striking, 31% nationally and over 40% in London. Ken is the great

:54:01.:54:08.

election Guru in London. To assume that the mayoralty will always be a

:54:09.:54:13.

Labour fiefdom could be very dangerous. Boris Johnson is still

:54:14.:54:17.

until he steps down the mayor, but has it gone so far now that there is

:54:18.:54:28.

an inevitability that the City is on course to pick a Labour candidate?

:54:29.:54:35.

No, it is a battle between inner and outer London and I didn't get it out

:54:36.:54:39.

well enough in the first election, lots of people said, we don't

:54:40.:54:43.

particularly like the idea, it is another layer of bureaucracy. We did

:54:44.:54:48.

better in the second term. The margin closed between me and Ken and

:54:49.:54:53.

Boris got more out and you can have a Tory in London and I don't see any

:54:54.:54:58.

reason to disbelieve that. Labour is actually now a London party,

:54:59.:55:01.

everything seems to be focused there in terms of the Shadow Cabinet

:55:02.:55:07.

positions, the leader of the party, Shadow Chancellor, it is just a

:55:08.:55:11.

London party. Not really. The simple fact is that whereas 40 years ago

:55:12.:55:17.

people always voted the same way, they never changed, people will

:55:18.:55:21.

change their mind on the way to the polling station, it has become

:55:22.:55:25.

celebrity politics and I loathe that. I like boring old arguments. I

:55:26.:55:33.

hated all of that. I came into politics to do things. You were

:55:34.:55:39.

still seen as a character? Margaret Thatcher created that by depleting

:55:40.:55:44.

me as a threat to national security. You fought two campaigns, what

:55:45.:55:48.

advice would you give to Zac Goldsmith? To actually get on and

:55:49.:55:51.

make sure the outer ring boats for you because if you look at Boris's

:55:52.:55:58.

performance, he won by 60,000 plus. Because he had broader appeal. A big

:55:59.:56:06.

turnout in Bromley. If you get the vote out in Bromley, Bexley, Croydon

:56:07.:56:12.

for the Conservatives, you win, and if you fail to do that, you don't.

:56:13.:56:17.

You once told a journalist that the more you got to know Ken, the less

:56:18.:56:21.

you liked him. I was quoting Neil Kinnock. Everybody likes Ken

:56:22.:56:25.

Livingstone apart from the people who know him! I was quoting other

:56:26.:56:33.

politicians, as it happens, I won't name them. Do you still support

:56:34.:56:40.

Sadiq Khan? Absolutely, like me he wants to do things and he is really

:56:41.:56:44.

focused on detail, a very effective minister. There is already quite a

:56:45.:56:51.

lot of Islamophobia in Standard. I think as well it will be a

:56:52.:56:55.

significant breakthrough if London shows that in a western country and

:56:56.:56:59.

Muslim can be elected in a senior position, that will be reassuring to

:57:00.:57:03.

a lot of Muslims who don't feel they are part of the country. Have things

:57:04.:57:08.

gone sour between you? A recent editorial in the Evening Standard

:57:09.:57:12.

encouraged Londoners to vote for Jeremy Corbyn's vision of a better

:57:13.:57:19.

City. Sadiq Khan gave an interview to the Jewish Chronicle in which he

:57:20.:57:22.

said, I won't be another Ken Livingstone. Me and Boris should

:57:23.:57:29.

keep out of this and we should focus on the two candidates we have got.

:57:30.:57:33.

You could not have a more striking contrast. Ordinary London guy whose

:57:34.:57:37.

dad was a bus driver against one of the bridges people in Britain. Will

:57:38.:57:44.

you go for his seat in tooting? I am a retired pensioner! You were

:57:45.:57:48.

involved in convening the defence review. That brought you back from

:57:49.:57:55.

retirement. It is quite interesting. We can discuss Trident! We can do

:57:56.:58:00.

that on another occasion. Will it be dirty? Sadiq Khan is getting

:58:01.:58:03.

oversensitive about this business. About being Muslim. Zac Goldsmith

:58:04.:58:09.

said he was a radical and he complained bitterly, saying that he

:58:10.:58:16.

was a smear, but Sadiq Khan described himself as radical. These

:58:17.:58:21.

things will play, this is a big prize with serious candidates. As

:58:22.:58:25.

far as I'm concerned the result is still in the balance. It is nice to

:58:26.:58:28.

bring sparring partners back together.

:58:29.:58:29.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:30.:58:33.

The question was which of the following Labour politicians

:58:34.:58:35.

Liam Byrne, John McDonnell, Lord Falconer, or Toby Perkins?

:58:36.:58:39.

Who hasn't grown a beard? My guess would be Toby Perkins. It is your

:58:40.:58:49.

friend John McDonnell Viktoria Gunes have you not noticed? It is just

:58:50.:58:54.

that he forgot to shave. -- it is your friend John McDonnell!

:58:55.:58:56.

The One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:57.:59:01.

I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow with Andrew

:59:02.:59:02.

We are told that OJ Simpson IS in that car,

:59:03.:59:07.

Do you think he did it? She was terrified of him.

:59:08.:59:16.

Give me the gun. I want him to finish this day alive.

:59:17.:59:20.

Jo Coburn is joined by former London mayor Ken Livingstone and Conservative MP David Davis for the latest political news from Westminster, including analysis of the Investigatory Powers Bill.


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