02/03/2016 Daily Politics


02/03/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Matt Hancock and Ian Murray for coverage of Prime Minister's Questions. Plus, Super Tuesday and Apple's battle with the FBI on encryption.


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LineFromTo

Morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Government's published a report today

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claiming that all alternatives to EU membership

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and would leave us weaker and less safe.

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No surprise those camaigning to leave the EU

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We'll be talking to former Conservative chancellor

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Norman Lamont, who wants to leave the EU.

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It looks like it'll be Trump vs Clinton come November's

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and look like being their respective parties' candidates.

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And Times journalist Hugo Rifkind gives us his take on the battle

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between Apple and the FBI over an an iPhone linked

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Battles we will always bound to lose against digital piracy, pornography,

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and soft drugs, but now we are looking at battles that really

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matter, terrorism, organised crime, and those battles are much harder to

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fight. All that in the next hour and a half

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and with us for the duration, Cabinet Office Minister, Matt

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Hancock, the only government minister brave enough to appear on

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our programme, and Shadow Scottish Secretary, Ian Murray, the only

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Labour MP in Scotland. Welcome to both of you. Now let's gaze into the

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Daily Politics Crystal Ball, and find out what the UK would look like

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if it left the EU. Actually we can't do that because we can't afford a

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crystal ball. But a new report, published by the government, which

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backs staying in, does attempt to do that, and, you have guessed it, the

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report paints a pretty bleak picture.

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The report, required by law under the European Referendum Act,

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declares that the UK would be "weaker, less safe and worse off"

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if it left the EU, with the gloomy analysis arguing that an exit

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from the EU would see fewer jobs and rising prices.

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The report also looks at non-EU alternative arrangements.

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It argues that UK would have to revert to World Trade Organisation

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rules and accept new costly tariffs on UK exports to the EU.

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It also states that non-EU members Norway and Switzerland still have

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to make financial contributions to the EU and accept principle

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as part of their trading arrangements.

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While it warns that Switzerland and Canada's arrangements provide

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only limited access to the single market.

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Foreign secretary Philip Hammond declared that

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"hard-headed analysis shows working people

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the pro-exit Work and Pensions Secretary,

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He has called the report a "dodgy dossier" that "won't fool anyone."

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The government says that we would be weaker, we would be less safe, we

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would be worse off if we left the European Union, presumably that is

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true, whether or not we we negotiated a new deal. That is

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looking at all of the difficult options available. Even if the Prime

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Minister had not achieved a renegotiation, that would be true?

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The good thing... If he had not, that would still be true? It is

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hypothetical, we did get a good renegotiation, the fact that we get

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better competitiveness and an ever closer union, ever closer union

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ending, which to me, is really important, we got those advantages,

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we have the best of both worlds. Even if you had not come you say it

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is hypothetical, it is not, Prime Minister told us that if he did not

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get a deal, he said I would rule nothing out. So if he did not have a

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deal, would he have plumped for a future in which he would be weaker

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and less safe and worse off? We would be those things if we left the

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European Union... With or without a deal? Compare to what is on the

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table. Also compared to the status quo before renegotiation. The

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analysis is about the comparison of the good deal we have got, or,

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leaving altogether. And so actually, the question of what we are

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comparing, we are comparing the deal that we have got, positive, for

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competitiveness, ending the ever closer union... The point I'm fine

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to get you to address, if there is such a big gamble in which so much

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would go wrong, it must be true that it would have been wrong to take the

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gamble whether or not we got a renegotiation. In the manifesto we

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committed to having a referendum, everyone is pleased we are having a

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referendum. Really? Even the Prime Minister? S, he committed to having

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it... Why have a referendum? You are saying it would be weaker, less

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safe, sterling would plummet, uncertainty... Tariff barriers...

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All of that! Sodom and Camorra! Why would you risk a referendum? We have

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promised, in the manifesto, and we are fulfilling that commitment, that

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is why we are having this, and for years, politicians before my time

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promised a referendum and it never got delivered. -- Sodom and

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Gomorrah. We can settle this for a generation. Even though leaving is

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so boring, in your view. It ends the drive towards ever closer union,

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against better competitiveness, those are important changes. --

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abhorrent. That means that we can be in the European Union but not on

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track to a single country called Europe. That is an important change,

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and on the economics of it, that is paramount for me, that is what got

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me into this politics in the first place, the economics are not

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ambiguous, the deal we have got is better than the alternatives.

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Looking at the alternatives, Norway is one example, that you look at and

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dismiss, you say that 75% of EU law has got to be adopted by Norway,

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what does that mean? That is based on lists... What is the figure based

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on? It is based on what happens in Norway. What is the source? The

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Foreign Office have analysed the situation that happens in Norway,

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Switzerland, Canada, and looked at the WTO. I looked at the compiling

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of the figures, the EU does not dispute these figures, between 2000

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and 2013, there were 52,000 legal instruments issued by the EU, Norway

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adopted 4724... 9%... Where does this 75% come from? That is from the

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Foreign Office. I am asking where they got it from, the after

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secretary act compiles these figures, their figure is 9%, where

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does 75 come from? It comes on the analysis of the impact on Norway.

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Only 100 of these changes required primary legislation. Only 100 out of

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52,000... That is not 75%. A huge amount of legislation goes through,

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primary legislation, secondary legislation. That is the 9%. What

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you are not disputing, and that nobody can dispute, if you choose

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the New Zealand option, then you end up with the rules and regulations.

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You end up with the free movement of people. You end up with the rules

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without having to say over them. How many EU rules... Switzerland given

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as example, how many rules does it right into its law? It is 0%, I can

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tell you. Switzerland is a different type of deal, they do not have full

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access to the single market, but they still have free movement of

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people. It is a different example. They do not have access to services.

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But, as you know, there is no single market in services. There is and we

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are strengthening it, part of the deal and the competitiveness of the

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deal that the promised brought back is all about our arguments to

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strengthen the services to the single market. The digital market,

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that is beginning stronger. The key point is this, the majority of our

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collar me is services. Indeed. To be in the Swiss position where you are

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not involved in the single market, you do not have full access, that

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would hit jobs and prospects. If not having access to the single market

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is such a disadvantage, Switzerland does not have it, how come, per

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capita, Twitter link exports five times as much as we do? Physically

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it is much closer and surrounded by the European Union. That has nothing

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to do with it. Geography is almost irrelevant in the digital age!

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Island is the only country... Switzerland, historically, has

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always been next to... Most of the exports to Ireland do not go through

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the Northern Ireland border, having aborted makes no difference. --

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Switzerland exports five times as much as we do. Only one tenth of EU

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exports come to the UK, that shows that in a renegotiation, were we to

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leave, then our argument for being able to export to the Yukon would be

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much more... We would need that more than they would need the 10% from

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last. -- to the EU. If it is a disadvantage, why has America,

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Canada and Australia increased their exports to the European Union in the

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past 20 years far more quickly than we have? Having increased trade

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across the world, because we started with a high position, because Europe

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is next door to us, increased trade around the world has happened right

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across the world. Increased trade between the US and... Why have they

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done better than us, we are inside and they are not, why is it such an

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advantage? They have not done better than us in absolute terms but they

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are trading more with the world, with China, as well, the Americans.

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It comes back to this, all of these options have big downsides in terms

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of access to the single market, or, you have to abide by the rules

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anyway. What we do not know, what underpins this discussion, all the

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different options, we do not know what leaving would look like, we do

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not know what the options are. Anybody who wants to leave is

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putting forward. You also talk about how Europe would impose tariffs, if

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we did that, we would impose tariffs on Europe, why do you presume that

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would happen at all, when from Iceland, in the north Atlantic, to

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Turkey, in Asia Minor, whether you are a member of the year you are

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not, there are no tariffs. Why would the Europeans pick on us? That is

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not accurate, looking at the trade deal being done with Canada. I said

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from Iceland down to Turkey, the outermost stretches of the

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continent, from Iceland all the way through to Turkey, there are no

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tariffs. Whether you are in the EU or out. For goods. So, why would the

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Europeans pick on us? The only one that has them, Belarus. Why would

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the Europeans position as with Belarus, that is what you are

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saying. That is what is presumed? No, not at all, it looks at what

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happens if we do not end up in the single market, if you do not have

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the free movement of people, then, the WTO rules, the World Trade

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Organisation rules allow tariffs of up to 10% on things like cars, and

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in fact, only this morning... This is not just coming from me. Why

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would the European Union, our allies, our friends, whether we are

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in or out, why would they pick on us when there is not another country

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through the whole European continent that has these tariffs? You have

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just named one. Belarus? LAUGHTER That is a Stalinist dictatorship!

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Are you saying the European Union would file us with a Stalinist

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dictatorship? I am not! But, some of the people who want to leave argue

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for a trade deal like with Canada, and the Canadian example, even

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though it is not yet passed, it includes these tariffs, but the key

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point is this, you do not just have to take it from me, from the Foreign

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Office, from the Foreign Secretary, listen this morning to the justice

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minister, who wants to leave, he argued that yes, tariffs in things

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like services and agriculture may go up slightly. You do not have to take

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it only from me. What I want from people who want to leave is an

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explanation of what would look like, because I care deeply about the jobs

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and livelihoods of British people and that is what has made me decide

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to vote to remain, because I care about the future stability and

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security of the economy and we just do not know what things would look

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like if we left. We will be coming back with more questions, don't go

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away. It is clear that the Shadow Cabinet

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backs David Cameron's position but Jeremy Corbyn will not share a

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platform with David Cameron, will you embrace this dossier and what

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has been set out and use it in the labour campaign? The issue about the

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dossier is that we do not know what it looks like, the Foreign Office

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have try to put together some kind of document. -- Labour campaign. I

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fear that we are in a position where the UK Government is putting forward

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all of the downsides without the positive case for staying in, like

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with the Scotland referendum. Would use the claims being made that all

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of the alternative, as we have just been through, in terms of EU

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membership, would be worse for Britain? EU membership is good for

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Britain, being out of the European Union would be bad for Britain, we

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all agree on that, we want to stay in. If you take that as the premise,

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the dossier is trying to find their way through what Britain would look

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like not being part of the European Union. Is it useful? The ad campaign

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would tell us what that looks like. What the questioning has shown is

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that nobody knows what it would look like armour that is why we are

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better off in, whether it is for trade or jobs or investment, we are

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part of the European Union project. -- nobody knows what it would look

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like, that is why we are better off. Did David Cameron do a good job with

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the renegotiation? It was a sideshow, some of it was even in the

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manifesto, so we do back that, but we must set that aside, we would be

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campaign to stay in the European Union with or without those changes.

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If those are the kind of changes he has got, we will accept those.

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Jeremy Corbyn is going to enthusiastically campaign to stay

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in, is he? Absolutely. That's why he wants a distinctive labour campaign,

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because we want the Labour message in this campaign to be brought

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forward. We don't want the internal squabbles of the Conservative Party

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to rule this campaign. Do you agree that it is jobs and people's

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livelihoods that should be at the centre, the forefront, of the remain

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campaign? I think it should be at the centre and forefront of every

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single campaign in terms of our pursuit -- constituency MPs. But

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there is also the big social side of the European Union, whether it be

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holiday pay, but hers in paternity issues. The social side of Europe is

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incredibly important. Thank you. Last night across the pond,

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Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republican Donald Trump

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were celebrating their victories in yesterday's so-called

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Super Tuesday polls. Super Tuesday is when 11 states

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choose their candidates for the presidency, and it can be

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a turning point in the race. What a super Tuesday! Surely only

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the Americans could make a Tuesday super. All the candidates had some

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success last night. The Republicans' Ted Cruise taking three states, his

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rival, Marco Rubio, one. For the Democrats, Bernie Sanders won four

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states. But it was the night that the presidential race seemed to

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narrow to being a battle between these two and they're setting their

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sights on each other. She's been there for so long. If she hasn't

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straightened it out by now, she's not going to straighten it out in

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the next four years. It's just going to become worse and worse. It's

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clear to me that the stakes in this election have never been higher. And

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the rhetoric we're hearing on the other side has never been lower. The

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pantomime villain for the Democrats is worrying some Republicans and Mr

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Trump, even though Ted Cruise is behind you, his call for his rivals

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to dropout may start to resonate. So long as the field remains divided,

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Donald Trump's path to the nomination remains more likely. And

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that would be a disaster for Republicans. And yet last night

:18:23.:18:28.

Donald Trump seemed to strike a conciliatory tone. I'm a unifier. I

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know people are going to find that hard to believe but believe me, I am

:18:35.:18:39.

a unifier. Much of this campaign has been hard to believe and be election

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isn't even till November. Thank you all very much.

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We're joined now by Kate Andrews from Republicans Overseas

:18:52.:18:55.

and by the MP Sir Simon Burns, who makes no secret of his support

:18:56.:18:58.

He's even got a selfie with Hillary Clinton to prove it.

:18:59.:19:06.

We won't show that now. It's daytime television! Kate Andrews, are you

:19:07.:19:13.

now reconciled to Donald Trump being your party's candidate? I think

:19:14.:19:17.

anyone looking at this race would have to assume that he is the very,

:19:18.:19:22.

very likely Republican candidate. Something interesting that came out

:19:23.:19:25.

of last night is how well Senator Ted Cruise did do in a lot of the

:19:26.:19:30.

states. He did well in his own state of Texas and Oklahoma. Second place

:19:31.:19:37.

is very important because it is awarded proportionally it isn't

:19:38.:19:43.

winner take all. You raise a very interesting point. It is very

:19:44.:19:52.

interesting. I would suggest it helps Mr Trump that Mr Cruise is

:19:53.:19:59.

still in the race because the Rubio/ Cruz vote will split and Mr Trump

:20:00.:20:07.

will almost certainly win Florida. At this point to... The grand old

:20:08.:20:15.

party needed the candidates to consolidate weeks ago before super

:20:16.:20:20.

Tuesday. Now that they haven't and Donald Trump is clearly in the lead,

:20:21.:20:23.

I wonder what their strategy will be. It is a bit radical but in some

:20:24.:20:27.

ways now, having more candidates in the race will take delegates away

:20:28.:20:32.

from Donald Trump as well. They might angle for burger convention.

:20:33.:20:35.

It hasn't happened in 60 years so I'm not calling that... Even I

:20:36.:20:40.

didn't cover that. That could be a strategy. Let's take it that Mrs

:20:41.:20:45.

Clinton has got the nomination sewn up. On the indictment over the

:20:46.:20:51.

e-mails over the Clinton's financing, over Rumsfeld, is unknown

:20:52.:20:56.

unknown. Let's part that. She'll be happy she up against Ardron? I would

:20:57.:21:01.

think so because it's quite extraordinary. Most politicians in

:21:02.:21:05.

the Western world, if they've behaved like Donald Trump has in the

:21:06.:21:08.

last two or three months, if they'd spoken over some of the things he's

:21:09.:21:13.

said, they would be toast, and yet he has gone from strength to

:21:14.:21:18.

strength with some things that are pretty distasteful, like mimicking

:21:19.:21:22.

someone who is distasteful etc. Doesn't seem to matter what he says.

:21:23.:21:30.

It doesn't because he seems to be appealing to a certain niche market

:21:31.:21:33.

of voters who are coming out in their droves to support him and if

:21:34.:21:38.

you then look at the policy proposals that he has, apart from

:21:39.:21:41.

the sound bites there isn't much flesh on them in the way that

:21:42.:21:46.

Hillary Clinton is addressing issues that are relevant to the people of

:21:47.:21:50.

America, like health care, the economy, the middle classes. But

:21:51.:21:56.

here's the issue, and I understand the White House view, which is that

:21:57.:21:59.

they are delighted it is Trump. They were terrified it was Rubio. They

:22:00.:22:03.

thought Rubio could win they're delighted it is Trump. But the

:22:04.:22:11.

problem is that no Democratic front runner in recent memory has gone

:22:12.:22:17.

into a presidential campaign, at the general election, with as big a

:22:18.:22:20.

negative as Hillary Clinton. She is vulnerable. Of course she is

:22:21.:22:27.

vulnerable. But when it narrows down to the two candidates, so you don't

:22:28.:22:31.

have a choice of other people as the potential nominee, it will

:22:32.:22:34.

concentrate minds and when you look at the electoral arithmetic of the

:22:35.:22:39.

United States, California, New York, they have the two largest electoral

:22:40.:22:45.

colleges, just under 100, 270 votes, and when you then see the base of

:22:46.:22:50.

the Democratic party, and I think that the people who are

:22:51.:22:53.

idealistically supporting Senator Sanders at the moment will come home

:22:54.:22:58.

to the Democratic party when they realise the sheer horror of what is

:22:59.:23:01.

confronting America with the alternative. One of the things that

:23:02.:23:06.

could swing in Mr Trump's Wake on the general election is if he could

:23:07.:23:09.

attract what we used to call the Reagan Democrats, the former

:23:10.:23:14.

Democratic blue-collar men of Italian Irish background who voted

:23:15.:23:17.

for Mr Reagan in 1980 and not Mr Carter. Is there any sign Mr Trump

:23:18.:23:22.

could do that? Yes, I think the biggest make the rest -- mistake the

:23:23.:23:27.

Republican Party has made so far as to underestimate him and I think

:23:28.:23:30.

most Republicans are doing the same thing. He's not just winning a small

:23:31.:23:35.

proportion of radical votes, he's running Hispanics, he's willing

:23:36.:23:38.

African-Americans, he's winning women. Among Republican registered

:23:39.:23:44.

voters. In a lot of open primaries. In Iowa, 37% of the people who voted

:23:45.:23:50.

went Republicans, they were either Republicans or Democrats. He is

:23:51.:23:53.

appealing to a very wide base of people. But he is policy light in

:23:54.:23:57.

terms of what he stands for and he's really weak on the Fatton policy.

:23:58.:24:02.

You saw what Marco Rubio was able to do to him simply on the Obama care

:24:03.:24:06.

reform. When Hillary Clinton gets hold of him... She's a walking

:24:07.:24:15.

encyclopaedia of our civil stop I wouldn't necessarily agree that he

:24:16.:24:18.

is policy light, just that he is outrageously lacking in policy but

:24:19.:24:22.

will you have to understand is that the American people have been

:24:23.:24:26.

promised polity Saint for the better part of two decades. You had a

:24:27.:24:30.

president who promised hope and change and we haven't seen it. The

:24:31.:24:33.

American people stuff they like their salaries haven't gone up,

:24:34.:24:37.

those jobs aren't there. They're tired of it. It is a point that Mr

:24:38.:24:43.

Trump made in one of his post-victory speeches, Hillary

:24:44.:24:49.

Clinton is promising to do something about wages... His point is, they've

:24:50.:24:52.

been in power for the past eight years and were in power a lot before

:24:53.:24:56.

that as well. Why would it get any better? Because it is already

:24:57.:25:01.

getting better now and it is a sound bite from people who oppose

:25:02.:25:03.

President Obama, without taking into account what is behind it. No change

:25:04.:25:09.

since 2009? What is Obama care? He's the first president... Bad for the

:25:10.:25:15.

middle class. He is the first president who has managed to get

:25:16.:25:17.

health care reform through the Congress. You've also seem that they

:25:18.:25:24.

inherited an economy that had gone down the tubes thanks to George W

:25:25.:25:28.

Bush, who squandered the Bill Clinton surplus and now we are

:25:29.:25:33.

seeing the American economy picking up with wages beginning to improve,

:25:34.:25:38.

unemployment coming down. That is the future and the hope and Hillary

:25:39.:25:44.

Clinton would continue that. Just yes or no, do you fear Mr Trump gets

:25:45.:25:48.

the ticket you could lose the Senate? I think it's very possible.

:25:49.:25:52.

It's also possible that President Trump will come to fruition. Who is

:25:53.:25:57.

going to win? Hillary Clinton. Who is going to win? Between the two of

:25:58.:26:03.

them it is a toss-up, I would be terrified of I was Hillary Clinton.

:26:04.:26:08.

Clinton. I think it is very difficult to call. It is difficult

:26:09.:26:12.

for government ministers to make predictions, I understand.

:26:13.:26:15.

Now, this year is a big one for one of our avid viewers.

:26:16.:26:18.

I hope you're enjoying your gin and Dubonnet, Ma'am.

:26:19.:26:24.

In half an hour, you usually take it, after you been watching the

:26:25.:26:28.

show. And, to commemorate the birthday

:26:29.:26:29.

of our longest serving monarch, politicians are

:26:30.:26:32.

donning their pinnies and high-vis jackets

:26:33.:26:33.

to clean up Britain The Palace is commemorating the big

:26:34.:26:34.

day in its own way. They've released a selection

:26:35.:26:39.

of birthday china for Liz. For just ?55 you can

:26:40.:26:42.

get a cup and saucer or if you have ?89 to spare,

:26:43.:26:48.

you can purchase Hand finished in 22-carat gold,

:26:49.:26:50.

made from the finest English bone china and using traditional

:26:51.:26:58.

techniques that date back 250 years, these will add an elegant

:26:59.:27:01.

touch to your tableware. I always eat by big Mack of one of

:27:02.:27:10.

these. But why would you want a mug fit

:27:11.:27:14.

for a Queen when you can Yes, it's the Daily Politics mug -

:27:15.:27:17.

made from basic something or other, it's probably dishwasher safe

:27:18.:27:21.

and hopefully won't crack. But, if it does -

:27:22.:27:28.

we don't do returns. To win one, all you have to do

:27:29.:27:30.

is tell us what year this happened. Will he tell us

:27:31.:27:38.

what his position is? Madam Speaker, there's one

:27:39.:27:43.

Oh, no, there's one very big difference.

:27:44.:27:48.

follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines

:27:49.:28:08.

Nick Leeson became famous when he lost more than $1 billion

:28:09.:28:14.

John Major's never been the safety first politician he sometimes looks.

:28:15.:28:34.

To remove this uncertainty, I have this afternoon

:28:35.:28:38.

tendered my resignation as leader of the Conservative Party.

:28:39.:28:43.

action find the defendant Orenthal James Simpson not guilty

:28:44.:28:48.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug,

:28:49.:29:16.

send your answer to our special quiz email address -

:29:17.:29:19.

Entries must arrive by 12:30pm today, and you can see the full

:29:20.:29:23.

terms and conditions for Guess The Year on our website

:29:24.:29:25.

It's coming up to midday here - just take a look at Big Ben -

:29:26.:29:31.

Yes, Prime Minister's Questions is on its way.

:29:32.:29:34.

And that's not all - the BBC's deputy political editor

:29:35.:29:37.

Despite the divisions and beer unanimity in the Labour Party,

:29:38.:29:51.

Jeremy Corbyn has demonstrated much interest in raising this as an issue

:29:52.:29:56.

in PMQs. Wildie today? I'll be surprised. It's the open goal. You

:29:57.:30:00.

would think it is the natural weight of debate in Parliament but I think

:30:01.:30:06.

he might try and choose thing left field. Pensions may be. Lots of

:30:07.:30:11.

people are talking about that in terms of when the state pension age

:30:12.:30:16.

may be changed, what sort of transitional protection should be in

:30:17.:30:20.

place, particularly for women. He might go for something... Person I

:30:21.:30:23.

this report about child poverty. He could go on that. The government has

:30:24.:30:28.

announced this morning that they are not going to go ahead with the

:30:29.:30:31.

vaccines for meningitis, which has been a big story in the news in

:30:32.:30:36.

recent weeks. And go to stop you there. We'll find out.

:30:37.:30:53.

Patricia Gibson. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:30:54.:31:02.

confirm that the UK Government intended to take ?7 billion from

:31:03.:31:06.

Scotland, over a decade, through the fiscal framework West remark and

:31:07.:31:15.

will he take this opportunity to take this opportunity today to

:31:16.:31:20.

explain why that was the case. -- through the fiscal framework? Only

:31:21.:31:26.

the SNP can try to maintain a grievance after the settlement has

:31:27.:31:31.

taken place. What we have done is build a powerhouse parliament for

:31:32.:31:34.

Scotland with more powers, more ability to set tax rates, more

:31:35.:31:38.

ability to determine benefits for its citizens, and now is time for

:31:39.:31:44.

the SNP to stop talking about grievances, and get on with

:31:45.:31:45.

government! CHEERING CSA group in my constituency has

:31:46.:31:56.

recently taken on six new apprentices. Across my constituency

:31:57.:32:02.

we have had more than 1000 apprenticeship starts since 2014,

:32:03.:32:05.

does my right honourable friend agree that this is time for

:32:06.:32:09.

government to stick with the plan, so that even more governments have

:32:10.:32:14.

the ability to take on apprenticeships. We have a very

:32:15.:32:20.

stretching target for 3 million apprentices to be trained during

:32:21.:32:24.

this Parliament, we will do our bit, we want business to do its part, I

:32:25.:32:28.

contributing to the apprenticeship levy, but we need small businesses

:32:29.:32:33.

like CSA, in her constituency, and indeed the public sector, to get

:32:34.:32:36.

fully involved in training apprentices to give young people the

:32:37.:32:40.

chance to earn and learn at the same time. Jeremy Corbyn. It is three

:32:41.:32:52.

years since the government announced a policy of tax free childcare.

:32:53.:32:57.

Could the Prime Minister tell us what is the hold-up? We are

:32:58.:33:04.

introducing that, along with the 30 hours of childcare, for everyone

:33:05.:33:10.

with a three and four-year-olds, with a ?6 billion commitment, with

:33:11.:33:14.

the start of the 30 hours coming in in a pilot scheme this year. Jeremy

:33:15.:33:22.

Corbyn. Mr Speaker, the Treasury website describes it as a long-term

:33:23.:33:25.

plan... LAUGHTER It certainly is that, it was

:33:26.:33:30.

announced in 2013, and is not apparently going to be introduced

:33:31.:33:34.

until next year. Could the Prime Minister tell us why his promise of

:33:35.:33:38.

30 hours free childcare for three and four-year-olds is not there for

:33:39.:33:44.

one in three working parents who want their children to be cared for

:33:45.:33:50.

in preschool? First of all, on the tax relief on childcare, we lost a

:33:51.:33:54.

court case against some of the existing providers, so there was a

:33:55.:33:57.

delay, and the tax free childcare will come in in 2017. As for the 30

:33:58.:34:03.

hours, as I have said, there will be pilot schemes this year, and full

:34:04.:34:07.

temperament Asian next year, in line with what we have said in the

:34:08.:34:10.

manifesto. I'm delighted he is helping me to promote government

:34:11.:34:15.

policy! CHEERING When I became Prime Minister I think

:34:16.:34:19.

we only had ten hours of childcare, now it has gone up to 12, and is now

:34:20.:34:24.

15, and is now 30. These are all the things you can do if you have a

:34:25.:34:29.

strong economy with a sound plan, you are getting your deficit down,

:34:30.:34:32.

your economy is growing, you are able to do all of these things.

:34:33.:34:35.

CHEERING I'm glad we are able to talk about

:34:36.:34:42.

them. Jeremy Corbyn. Today, the National Audit Office report

:34:43.:34:45.

confirms that one third of families promised 30 hours free childcare now

:34:46.:34:49.

will not receive it, this is a broken promise. The report also

:34:50.:34:55.

warns that many childcare providers are not offering the new entitlement

:34:56.:35:00.

due to insufficient funding. There are 41,003 -year-olds missing out on

:35:01.:35:05.

free early education as a result of this. -- 40 1000 three-year-old.

:35:06.:35:10.

Will the Prime Minister intervene and make sure those children get the

:35:11.:35:19.

start in life they deserve? -- 41,000 three-year-olds. The

:35:20.:35:23.

department has successfully in fermented entitlement to free

:35:24.:35:27.

childcare for three and four-year-olds with almost universal

:35:28.:35:30.

take-up of hours offered to parents. -- implemented universal

:35:31.:35:38.

entitlement. The Department has made significant progress in making free

:35:39.:35:42.

entitlement, parents and children are benefiting, stakeholders are

:35:43.:35:46.

positive about increasing the time to 30 hours. All of these things we

:35:47.:35:50.

are able to do because we have a strong and sound economy, what a

:35:51.:35:53.

contrast it would be if we listened to the right honourable gentleman,

:35:54.:35:58.

as I regularly subscribe to the Islington Tribune, I can announce

:35:59.:36:01.

his latest economic adviser, Yanis Varoufakis! He was the Greek finance

:36:02.:36:08.

minister, who left his economy in ruins! That is Labour's policy, into

:36:09.:36:22.

words, Acropolis -- in two words, " Acropolis now". That is not much

:36:23.:36:27.

help to the 41,000 children not benefiting from what they were

:36:28.:36:30.

promised by the government, looking further on in the education life of

:36:31.:36:33.

children, according to the figures from the government, half a million

:36:34.:36:38.

children in primary schools are in classes over 31, 15,000 are in

:36:39.:36:47.

classes of over 40, we all know the importance of both preschool and

:36:48.:36:50.

early years of education to give all of our children a decent start in

:36:51.:36:56.

life. And yet half a million are living in poverty and many are in

:36:57.:37:01.

oversized glasses, isn't it time for a serious government intervention to

:37:02.:37:06.

sort out this problem? -- oversized classes. Introducing the extra hours

:37:07.:37:12.

for childcare is a huge operation for the childcare providers, since

:37:13.:37:16.

the National Audit Office report, that said only 58% of disadvantaged

:37:17.:37:21.

to-year-olds were accessing the free childcare offer, the latest

:37:22.:37:24.

information shows it is over 70% of those. Now, he mentioned the number

:37:25.:37:31.

of teachers and overcrowded classes, there is 13,100 more teachers than

:37:32.:37:36.

there were in 2010, because we have invested in teach first, we have

:37:37.:37:40.

invested in bursaries, we have made sure that teaching is a worthwhile

:37:41.:37:44.

career, when it comes to school places, I want to answer him,

:37:45.:37:49.

because there is 453 fewer schools that are full or overcapacity,

:37:50.:37:57.

compare 220 ten. That is progress. 36,500 fewer pupils who are in

:37:58.:38:01.

schools that are overcrowded. Again, why have we been able to do this? We

:38:02.:38:05.

protected education funding, detected the money that went

:38:06.:38:08.

following every pupil in the school, introduced the pupil premium, the

:38:09.:38:12.

first time any government had recognised the extra needs of

:38:13.:38:14.

children from the most poor backgrounds. We did all of that, the

:38:15.:38:19.

school system is growing, there are more places, fewer overcrowded

:38:20.:38:22.

schools, all because they have the strong economy and the right values

:38:23.:38:28.

in place. Mr Speaker, the problem is that class sizes are growing, the

:38:29.:38:32.

problem is that there is a crisis of teacher shortages as well, and I

:38:33.:38:37.

have been talking, as I am sure the Prime Minister has, too many

:38:38.:38:41.

teachers, I have a question from one, I quote, from Tom, " I have

:38:42.:38:45.

been teaching for ten years and I am currently head of design and

:38:46.:38:48.

technology at a successful secondary school. With increasing numbers of

:38:49.:38:52.

teachers leaving the profession, will the government is now access

:38:53.:38:57.

that there is a crisis of recruitment and also of retention of

:38:58.:39:01.

teachers in this crucial profession?" I have given you the

:39:02.:39:06.

figures, there is 13,000 more teachers in schools than when I

:39:07.:39:10.

became Prime Minister, if he worries about teacher recruitment, explain

:39:11.:39:14.

this: how is it going to help his party's proposal to put up the basic

:39:15.:39:20.

rate of tax, starting in Scotland, that will mean classroom teachers,

:39:21.:39:24.

secondary school teachers, nursery teachers all paying more tax, what

:39:25.:39:29.

we are doing is helping teachers by saying, you can earn ?11,000 before

:39:30.:39:34.

you pay any income tax at all. I don't think that recruiting teachers

:39:35.:39:37.

is simply about money, it is also about having a good school system,

:39:38.:39:41.

which we have in place in this country, it certainly won't help if

:39:42.:39:45.

we listen to Labour and put up people's taxes. The Prime Minister

:39:46.:39:49.

seems to be in a bit of denial here. SHOUTING

:39:50.:39:55.

Ofsted and the National Audit Office all confirmed there is a shortage

:39:56.:40:01.

and a crisis of teachers. Ensuring there is another excellent teachers

:40:02.:40:04.

in our schools is fundamental to the life chances of children. When 70%

:40:05.:40:11.

of head teachers warned they are now using agency staff, is staff there

:40:12.:40:17.

are classroom, isn't it time the government intervened and looked at

:40:18.:40:21.

the real cost of this, damage to children's education, but also, ?1.3

:40:22.:40:26.

billion spent last year on agency teachers. We have this agency

:40:27.:40:30.

working situation in the National Health Service, and also in

:40:31.:40:34.

education, are we moving into an era in which we can turn it agency

:40:35.:40:40.

Britain? He has got to look at the facts, rather than talk down people

:40:41.:40:45.

working so hard to teach children in our schools. Teachers are better

:40:46.:40:49.

qualified than ever, that is the fact, 96.6% of teachers in state

:40:50.:40:53.

funded schools now have a degree or higher qualification. Those are the

:40:54.:41:00.

facts. I would argue that going into teaching, and now, teach first is

:41:01.:41:05.

the most popular destination for Oxbridge graduates, which never

:41:06.:41:08.

happened under a Labour government, if you want to encourage people to

:41:09.:41:11.

go into teaching, you have got to know you have a good school system

:41:12.:41:14.

with more academies, more free schools. -- Teach First. Higher

:41:15.:41:18.

qualification, making sure we have rig and discipline in the classroom,

:41:19.:41:23.

all of which has improved, but all of that is only possible if you have

:41:24.:41:27.

a strong and growing economy to fund the schools that our children need.

:41:28.:41:38.

In my constituency, we have one of several UK power stations, which has

:41:39.:41:42.

seen closure this year. In Germany and Holland, both of whose carbon

:41:43.:41:46.

emissions are higher, they are building brand-new mega power

:41:47.:41:53.

stations, much of that we are going to import. It is very hard, for me

:41:54.:41:58.

to expand the logic of this to my constituents, could the Prime

:41:59.:42:00.

Minister review the pace of our closure programme, particularly in

:42:01.:42:04.

the context of next year 's energy crunch. My honourable friend raises

:42:05.:42:10.

an important question, he is right, there is big change in the industry,

:42:11.:42:15.

we want to see an increase in gas capacity, an increase in renewable

:42:16.:42:19.

capacity and the restarting of the nuclear programme, which I hope to

:42:20.:42:23.

be discussing with the French president this week. He is right

:42:24.:42:26.

that security of supply must be the number one priority, that is why we

:42:27.:42:29.

have announced we will bring forward the capacity market to provide this

:42:30.:42:34.

extra boost to existing stations, this could indeed help Fiddlers

:42:35.:42:38.

Ferry itself. I say to him and everybody across the house, all of

:42:39.:42:43.

the decisions we take about energy, they have consequences for peoples

:42:44.:42:46.

bills. He mentions Germany, German electricity prices are 40% higher

:42:47.:42:51.

than in the UK, the level of subsidies makes up 30% of German

:42:52.:42:57.

bills, ours is less than half that level, and we have got to think

:42:58.:43:01.

through these decisions for the consequences for energy consumers.

:43:02.:43:07.

Angus Roberts and. We all have a right not to be disconnected

:43:08.:43:10.

against. On the basis of age, gender, six, sexual orientation,

:43:11.:43:15.

disability or ethnicity. Parents have right is to paternity and

:43:16.:43:24.

maternity entitlement. -- Angus Robertson. All of the things --

:43:25.:43:32.

semi-things are guaranteed through membership of the European Union,

:43:33.:43:35.

does the Prime Minister guarantee that there are due to social

:43:36.:43:38.

benefits to being members of the European Union. What we have done,

:43:39.:43:43.

including under this government, is actually add to the right that

:43:44.:43:48.

people have, including maternity and paternity rights. I think that the

:43:49.:43:52.

emphasis on Europe now needs to be making sure that weeks band the

:43:53.:43:56.

single market and make it more successful for businesses,

:43:57.:44:00.

recognising the social benefits matter as well but principally, I

:44:01.:44:04.

believe they are a matter for this house. Angus Robertson. Millions of

:44:05.:44:09.

UK citizens live elsewhere in the European Union, European decisions

:44:10.:44:14.

have helped the environment reducing sulphur dioxide emissions by nine

:44:15.:44:17.

tenths, relations between 28 EU member states are often imperfect

:44:18.:44:24.

but they occur through dialogue and agreement, surely a huge improvement

:44:25.:44:29.

on confrontations and wards of the past. With the Prime Minister

:44:30.:44:33.

concentrate on the positive arguments for EU membership, and

:44:34.:44:36.

reject the approach of "Project Fear". My arguments about being

:44:37.:44:42.

stronger in the refund European Union, and safer, and better off in

:44:43.:44:47.

the refund European Union, are all positive arguments, and I would add

:44:48.:44:51.

the point that he makes, things like pollution, crosses borders, and it

:44:52.:44:54.

makes sense to work together. The fundamental point he makes is one

:44:55.:44:59.

worth thinking about, he and I are both post-war children, but we

:45:00.:45:03.

should never forget, when we sit around the table, that 70 years ago,

:45:04.:45:07.

these countries were murdering each other, on the continent of Europe.

:45:08.:45:14.

For all the frustrated of this institution, and believe me, there

:45:15.:45:17.

are many, we should never forget that, the fact that we talk and work

:45:18.:45:21.

together and resolve disputes around the table. Alberto Costa. Those who

:45:22.:45:28.

foster children deserve our full support. To mark fostering February,

:45:29.:45:37.

I visited in my constituency a fostering unit which since

:45:38.:45:41.

establishment in 2003 has helped over 1250 children, find a loving

:45:42.:45:46.

and caring home. Would my right honourable friend join me in

:45:47.:45:51.

thanking the unit, as well as the carers, but would he also agreed to

:45:52.:45:54.

look into how the currently complex funding arrangements for over 18s

:45:55.:46:00.

could be considerably simplified to ease the transition of children into

:46:01.:46:01.

adult third. We all know as parents it is very

:46:02.:46:19.

important to give people the support they need. That's why we changed the

:46:20.:46:23.

law in the last parliament so local authorities are under a duty to

:46:24.:46:26.

support young people who choose to remain with their foster carers

:46:27.:46:30.

beyond the age of 18. We put in place what is called a staying put

:46:31.:46:34.

arrangement and are providing 40 formerly pounds over three years. In

:46:35.:46:38.

the first year of its roll-out, almost half of those eligible to

:46:39.:46:41.

stay but have decided to do so. This is a real advance in our fostering

:46:42.:46:48.

arrangements. Thank you, Mr Speaker. As this is my first ever question to

:46:49.:46:51.

the Prime Minister, I do hope... CHEERING

:46:52.:46:56.

I do hope my suit and tie matches mother's high expectations. Mr

:46:57.:47:03.

Speaker, in September last year, 16-year-old Mohammed was stabbed to

:47:04.:47:07.

death in my constituency. His mother discovered last week the CPS will

:47:08.:47:11.

not be prosecuting the man arrested for his murder. Sadly, she joins the

:47:12.:47:15.

84% people in Southwark are experienced by crime last year who

:47:16.:47:19.

have seen no one held to account. Home Office blamed local police for

:47:20.:47:22.

that Lopez occasioned great and I resent the position that my local

:47:23.:47:27.

elites are not up to the job. Will the Prime Minister ensure that my

:47:28.:47:30.

local police have the resources to investigate knife crime fully and

:47:31.:47:35.

bring more killers to justice? The honourable gentleman uses his first

:47:36.:47:37.

question to raise an incredibly important issue which is knife crime

:47:38.:47:40.

in our country. The good news is that knife crime has come down about

:47:41.:47:45.

14% since 2010 but he makes an important point about the level of

:47:46.:47:49.

prosecutions. Last year there were something like 11,000 prosecutions.

:47:50.:47:53.

The rate of prosecution is similar as for other areas but clearly

:47:54.:47:57.

everything we can do to help the police, the CPS to increase the rate

:47:58.:48:03.

of prosecution is wholly worthwhile. We need to give the police the

:48:04.:48:06.

resources they need and we are, through the spending round. We need

:48:07.:48:10.

to educate young people on the dangers of knife crime and we need

:48:11.:48:13.

to make sure those who commit these crimes are properly punished. Mr

:48:14.:48:23.

Bernard Jenkin. Where is the fellow? He's not here. Well let's hear from

:48:24.:48:33.

someone who is here, Mr David Davis. For five or six years... Order. I

:48:34.:48:43.

know the houses in a state of some motivation but we must hear from The

:48:44.:48:47.

Right Honourable gentleman when he's composed himself. Mr David Davis.

:48:48.:48:55.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. For five or six years, national insurance

:48:56.:48:59.

numbers issue to EU migrants have been hundreds of thousands higher

:49:00.:49:02.

than the official immigration figures. This implies the figures

:49:03.:49:07.

may be a dramatic underestimate. We can only know the truth of the

:49:08.:49:13.

matter is HMRC release the data on active EU national insurance buzz,

:49:14.:49:17.

which HMRC has refused to do. Will the Prime Minister instructed HMRC

:49:18.:49:23.

to release those statistics so that we know the truth about European

:49:24.:49:27.

immigration? And glad we've got the single transferable question, if not

:49:28.:49:35.

the single transferable vote. The reason why these numbers don't tally

:49:36.:49:39.

is you can get a national insurance number for a very short-term visit

:49:40.:49:42.

and people who are already here without insurance number can apply

:49:43.:49:46.

for them, so these numbers are quite complex. The HMRC has given greater

:49:47.:49:51.

information and I will make sure that continues to be the case. The

:49:52.:49:58.

proposed changes to Sunday trading are causing great concern to many

:49:59.:50:04.

retailers, shop workers, to their families, to faith groups and to all

:50:05.:50:09.

who want to Keep Sunday Special, get before the election the Prime

:50:10.:50:14.

Minister said he had no plans to change Sunday Trading laws. When did

:50:15.:50:19.

he change his mind or was it always his plan to scrap this great British

:50:20.:50:22.

compromise as soon as the election was safely out of the way? Well, I

:50:23.:50:27.

thought it was right to bring forward these proposals because they

:50:28.:50:33.

are genuinely new proposals. New in that we are devolving to local

:50:34.:50:37.

authorities to make those decisions and secondly, crucially, I'm sure

:50:38.:50:41.

honourable members opposite will be interested in this, we will be

:50:42.:50:45.

introducing new protections not only for new workers on Sundays but for

:50:46.:50:49.

all workers on Sundays and so I think the house should look

:50:50.:50:53.

carefully at this idea, not least because our constituents are able to

:50:54.:50:58.

shop online all day, every day, including Sunday. All the evidence

:50:59.:51:02.

shows this will be welcomed by customers, will create more jobs and

:51:03.:51:07.

I think we have nothing to be scared of moving into this new arrangement.

:51:08.:51:16.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. At the weekend I visited a Young enterprise

:51:17.:51:24.

trade fair where teams from across local Staffordshire schools,

:51:25.:51:27.

including Rugeley sixth form Academy, where showcasing their

:51:28.:51:31.

entrepreneurial skills. Will my right honourable friend join me in

:51:32.:51:33.

wishing good luck to all of the teams and does he agree that with

:51:34.:51:39.

me, initiatives such as this are key to inspiring the next generation of

:51:40.:51:44.

entrepreneurs? I think my honourable friend makes an important point,

:51:45.:51:47.

which is four years in our schools not enough was done to encourage

:51:48.:51:51.

enterprise and entrepreneurship when we know that so many jobs of the

:51:52.:51:55.

future will come from start-up businesses and small businesses and

:51:56.:51:59.

rapidly growing start-ups, so it is absolutely right that in our schools

:52:00.:52:02.

we should be promoting enterprise, not only through teaching but also

:52:03.:52:07.

to exercises including starting businesses for young people by

:52:08.:52:15.

giving them small grants. Yesterday, a north-east SME ceased to trade.

:52:16.:52:18.

Their goal was the extraction of gas from coal deep under the North Sea.

:52:19.:52:24.

The Government failed to abide -- provide a supporting statement to

:52:25.:52:29.

support investment due to its inability to compound that not only

:52:30.:52:32.

would the company secure our energies apply but also provide

:52:33.:52:36.

feedstocks to grow our industries and all of that totally decarbonise

:52:37.:52:40.

stop Will the Prime Minister look at this appalling loss of opportunity

:52:41.:52:43.

and urgently change course and develop a meaningful industrial and

:52:44.:52:48.

energy strategy that British industry and workers and the planet

:52:49.:52:53.

so badly need? I will certainly look at the case that he raises because

:52:54.:52:57.

we back all energy projects that could create jobs and create growth

:52:58.:53:02.

in our country and we have a very active industrial strategy for that.

:53:03.:53:07.

I know that he's disappointed about our decision on carbon capture and

:53:08.:53:10.

storage but I would say to him that that is an extra capital investment

:53:11.:53:16.

and even after that, there is no sign yet that carbon capture or

:53:17.:53:21.

storage can be even close to competitive to even nuclear power

:53:22.:53:23.

offshore wind but I will look carefully E mentions. -- at the case

:53:24.:53:33.

he mentions. A large proportion of the fish caught by British vessels

:53:34.:53:37.

and landed in the UK are exported to Europe, mainly to EU countries, and

:53:38.:53:41.

a great many of our fishermen fish in the sovereign waters of other

:53:42.:53:44.

European Union countries. In a reformed regime, reforms that were

:53:45.:53:50.

led by the British government. Does my right honourable friend agree

:53:51.:53:54.

that our sees, those that exploit them and the communities that they

:53:55.:53:58.

support, are better off in a reformed European Union? I agree

:53:59.:54:03.

with my honourable friend and I pay tribute to him for the huge work

:54:04.:54:08.

that he did to reform the common fisheries policy from what was a

:54:09.:54:13.

very poor policy to one that is now working much better for our

:54:14.:54:17.

fishermen. When it comes to fishing and farming, the key issue is going

:54:18.:54:20.

to be making sure that Europe's markets remain open to the produce

:54:21.:54:25.

that we land and we produce and that I think is going to be vital in the

:54:26.:54:31.

debate in the months ahead. When more than 16,000... 1600 families

:54:32.:54:38.

are on York's waiting list, when care workers are forced to leave the

:54:39.:54:43.

city due to the cost of renting, when young families are placed in

:54:44.:54:47.

single rooms in homeless hostels and when supported housing schemes will

:54:48.:54:51.

have to close due to benefit changes, can the Prime Minister

:54:52.:54:58.

specifically state why, up to 2500 predominantly high-value homes are

:54:59.:55:01.

being planned for development in York Central without building a

:55:02.:55:06.

single home for social rent? The decisions made in York about

:55:07.:55:10.

planning for York City Council and their local plan but what I would

:55:11.:55:15.

say to her, one of the things that we did in the last parliament was

:55:16.:55:20.

specifically designed to help York, was to change the change of use

:55:21.:55:24.

provisions so that empty offices could be used to build flats and

:55:25.:55:28.

houses for local people, which is happening in York and will help to

:55:29.:55:32.

make sure that city continues to thrive. Will my right honourable

:55:33.:55:38.

friend agree to meet me and my constituent William Lawrie, a

:55:39.:55:40.

brilliant young farmer whose business has been put at risk

:55:41.:55:44.

because the RPA haven't paid his basic payment scheme money? Will he

:55:45.:55:50.

also confirmed that the RPA figures that they keep putting out our

:55:51.:55:54.

fictional, or does he agree with his Defra secretary that it is the EU's

:55:55.:56:00.

commissioners' fault for making the cap so compensated? What I would say

:56:01.:56:05.

to my honourable friend is that the system is complicated and we need to

:56:06.:56:09.

make sure that the rural payments agency does the very best that it

:56:10.:56:15.

can. To date, 70,000 farmers have received their 2015 payments, which

:56:16.:56:20.

is now 81% of all claims paid but there is always room for

:56:21.:56:22.

improvement. We should look at all the devolved areas of the UK and see

:56:23.:56:27.

how they are coping with this problem. In terms of the issue more

:56:28.:56:32.

broadly, I think it's very important we maintain the access that our

:56:33.:56:36.

farmers have without tariffs, without tax, without quota, to

:56:37.:56:39.

produce the cleanest and best food anywhere in the world and explored

:56:40.:56:46.

it -- export it to 500 million people in the EU single market.

:56:47.:56:51.

Yesterday the chair of the board of international campaign for Tibet

:56:52.:56:57.

came to the House of Commons to meet with members of parliament as well

:56:58.:57:01.

as you, Mr Speaker. Will the Prime Minister follow the example set by

:57:02.:57:07.

the United States, Canada, Germany and Japan and write to the Chinese

:57:08.:57:10.

authorities to express his concerns about their oppressive

:57:11.:57:13.

counterterrorism laws, introduced in Tibet? I wasn't aware of that visit.

:57:14.:57:21.

I will look very closely at what he said and perhaps get back to the

:57:22.:57:24.

honourable lady about the issues he raises. In 2004, the 16-year-old

:57:25.:57:37.

some of my constituent Lorraine Fraser was murdered by a gang and

:57:38.:57:40.

the conviction of four of them was secured by joint enterprise. The

:57:41.:57:44.

recent ruling in the Supreme Court has caused Lorraine and many other

:57:45.:57:48.

Victors' families a great deal of anxiety. Would my right are both

:57:49.:57:51.

friend agreed to facilitate a meeting to enable these families to

:57:52.:57:55.

discuss their concerns with ministers and understand what the

:57:56.:57:57.

ruling might mean in cases like there's? Well, through my honourable

:57:58.:58:05.

friend, can I extend my sympathy is to his constituents? He is

:58:06.:58:08.

absolutely right, we should remember that the families of all those

:58:09.:58:10.

who've lost loved ones to dreadful crimes who are worried about this

:58:11.:58:13.

judgment and what it might mean for them. I'm very happy to facilitate a

:58:14.:58:18.

meeting between him and one of the justice ministers to discuss it. We

:58:19.:58:21.

should be clear that this judgment only referred to a narrow category

:58:22.:58:24.

of joint enterprise cases and I think it would be wrong to suggest

:58:25.:58:28.

that everyone convicted under the wider law on joint enterprise will

:58:29.:58:31.

have grounds for appeal. It is very important that message goes out but

:58:32.:58:34.

I will fix the meeting that he calls for. People in the Midlands are

:58:35.:58:40.

absolutely furious to learn that the Government's awarded a contract to

:58:41.:58:42.

make British medals to some French company. Imagine it, Mr Speaker. You

:58:43.:58:48.

open your distinguished service order or CBE and it says "Made in

:58:49.:58:58.

France". I visited Midlands metal manufacturers in Birmingham's

:58:59.:59:01.

jewellery Quarter. They are the best in the world. We should go back to

:59:02.:59:07.

Downing Street -- he should go back to Downing Street, call in the

:59:08.:59:10.

Cabinet Office minister and get this scandal sorted out. The only point

:59:11.:59:13.

Cabinet Office minister and get this would make to the honourable

:59:14.:59:17.

gentleman is, I'm sure all of those in the Royal Mint in Wales would

:59:18.:59:22.

want to contest the fact that they make the finest medals in the United

:59:23.:59:25.

Kingdom and I'm sure the competition between them and Birmingham is very

:59:26.:59:29.

intense. I'll certainly take away what he says. I wasn't aware of this

:59:30.:59:33.

issue but I'm always in favour, where we can make something in

:59:34.:59:36.

Britain, we should make something in Britain. A recent investigation

:59:37.:59:45.

carried out by my local newspaper, the Derby Telegraph, uncovered

:59:46.:59:47.

reports of alleged experiments carried out on children by medics at

:59:48.:59:52.

a medical facility in Derbyshire during the 1960s and 1970s. Can I

:59:53.:59:57.

ask the Prime Minister to ensure that a thorough investigation into

:59:58.:00:01.

this situation is now undertaken? I'm very happy to give my honourable

:00:02.:00:04.

friend that assurance. She is absolutely right to raise this. They

:00:05.:00:08.

are very serious allegations and it's vital that the full facts are

:00:09.:00:12.

considered. My understanding is that the police, the local authority and

:00:13.:00:16.

NHS working together and there's an inquiry process under the Derby

:00:17.:00:19.

safeguarding children board in line with its procedures. I would

:00:20.:00:22.

encourage anyone who knows anything about this to come forward and give

:00:23.:00:28.

evidence to that board. The Syrian ceasefire is extremely fragile.

:00:29.:00:33.

There are reports that Russia is continuing to attack anti-Assad

:00:34.:00:39.

rebels, not Daesh, and that Islamic terrorists and weapons continue to

:00:40.:00:45.

pass into Syria across the Turkish border. What is the British

:00:46.:00:49.

Government doing to ensure the ceasefire is properly monitored and,

:00:50.:00:53.

in particular, to reduce serious tensions between Russia and our Nato

:00:54.:00:58.

ally Turkey? The honourable lady is absolutely right to raise this. The

:00:59.:01:03.

cessation of hostilities is an important step forward, imperfect

:01:04.:01:07.

though it is, and it does enable the possibility of political

:01:08.:01:10.

negotiations starting next week. She asks service and agree what we are

:01:11.:01:13.

proud to admit it is properly enforced stop we are working with

:01:14.:01:17.

the Americans and Russians to make that happen. I've got a European

:01:18.:01:22.

conference call with Vladimir Putin later this week to reinforce these

:01:23.:01:27.

points. Even though the ceasefire is imperfect, it is progress that we

:01:28.:01:31.

have it. Not every group is included in the ceasefire but basically there

:01:32.:01:36.

aren't the attacks that were taking place on the moderate opposition,

:01:37.:01:40.

which is welcome, and it is also enabled us with others to get aid

:01:41.:01:43.

into communities that desperately need it, including through airdrops

:01:44.:01:50.

and convoys. So I wouldn't put too much optimism into the mix right now

:01:51.:01:53.

but this is progress and we should work on it. Two weeks ago I visited

:01:54.:02:00.

a refugee Cap and the surrounding area on the Jordanian/Syrian border,

:02:01.:02:06.

primarily to assist health care services. I was struck by the

:02:07.:02:10.

remarkable resilience the local people have and this system is under

:02:11.:02:14.

quite significant pressure. Would the Prime Minister meet with me to

:02:15.:02:18.

discuss further what Britain can do to enhance health care services on

:02:19.:02:22.

the ground, both for the Syrian refugees and the wider Jordanian

:02:23.:02:26.

community? I'm very happy to meet with my honourable friend to discuss

:02:27.:02:29.

this. It is an extra ordinary sight, that refugee camp, because of the

:02:30.:02:33.

scale of the endeavour under way. Britain can be proud of what we've

:02:34.:02:36.

done in terms of the direct aid we've given and also the London

:02:37.:02:40.

conference that raised $11 billion for these refugee camps. I know he's

:02:41.:02:44.

got a long-standing interest on what we can do to make sure facilities

:02:45.:02:49.

are delivered quickly, including on occasions using military facilities,

:02:50.:02:52.

and I think there may be opportunities for that but we also

:02:53.:02:55.

need to make sure the emergency response from NGOs and the knighted

:02:56.:02:59.

nations is as fast as it can be when crises like this happen in the

:03:00.:03:03.

future. As the Prime Minister struggles with certain elements in

:03:04.:03:06.

his party over Europe, does he ever think that on an inspirational Prime

:03:07.:03:14.

Minister -- think back on an inspirational Prime Minister, Harold

:03:15.:03:17.

Wilson, who faced difficulties but stood up to the rebels in his own

:03:18.:03:21.

party and secured a yes vote for staying in Europe, and will he join

:03:22.:03:26.

with me because Harold Wilson's Centenary of his birth is next week

:03:27.:03:30.

and could be celebrated across all parties, a great innovative Prime

:03:31.:03:35.

Minister. I do feel a natural sympathy for anyone who has had this

:03:36.:03:39.

job. Irrespective of what side of the house we're on. I think he did

:03:40.:03:45.

do some important things and the honourable gentleman has some

:03:46.:03:50.

important things. I wish his family well on this important day and I

:03:51.:03:57.

think we approach things in different ways but one thing we

:03:58.:04:00.

would have agreed about is Britain's future is better off in a reformed

:04:01.:04:11.

EU. I'm sure the whole house will join me in expressing our

:04:12.:04:17.

condolences to Neil and Jennifer Burdett, the parents of two-year-old

:04:18.:04:20.

Fay, who died on Valentine's Day of meningitis B. Since they's death,

:04:21.:04:27.

815,000 people have signed a petition calling for the Government

:04:28.:04:30.

to vaccinate more children against meningitis B. I'm proud that the UK

:04:31.:04:35.

is the first country to have a vaccination programme for meningitis

:04:36.:04:38.

B but could my right honourable friend make sure the government

:04:39.:04:41.

looks at what more can be done to prevent more children like fei dying

:04:42.:04:47.

from this disease? On behalf of the whole house, let me extend my

:04:48.:04:52.

sympathies and condolences to Faye's parents and all those who have had

:04:53.:04:55.

children suffering from this terrible disease. By Robert friend

:04:56.:04:58.

is absolutely right, we were the first country in the world to have

:04:59.:05:01.

this vaccination programme, which is based on the advice of the joint

:05:02.:05:05.

committee on vaccination and immunisation who recommended

:05:06.:05:09.

targeting the vaccine to protect the infant at highest risk. The

:05:10.:05:12.

incidence of highest risk it does occur in babies at five months and

:05:13.:05:16.

of the 276 children contracting meningitis B last year, over 100

:05:17.:05:20.

were one year of age but she makes important points. We need to look at

:05:21.:05:24.

all the evidence carefully, as do the expert bodies that advise us,

:05:25.:05:28.

recognising that Britain is already taking some important steps forward

:05:29.:05:31.

by being the first country to vaccinate in this way.

:05:32.:05:42.

Leader of the Opposition Jeremy Corbyn went on education related

:05:43.:05:47.

issues, to begin with, childcare for infants, then moved on to what he

:05:48.:05:51.

said was a growing crisis in teachers and growing class sizes.

:05:52.:06:04.

Attacking Tory cuts has been a successful Labour strategy,

:06:05.:06:06.

according to one viewer, but the point is an additional childcare

:06:07.:06:11.

provision did not hit home, just gave David Cameron an opportunity to

:06:12.:06:17.

talk about an area of policy where Tories are weak. Same drivel from

:06:18.:06:22.

the Romans as usual, says one viewer, and our viewers so dumb that

:06:23.:06:29.

backbenchers need to be asking planted questions. James Patterson

:06:30.:06:33.

says, Jeremy Corbyn bleeding all over the floor, Prime Minister

:06:34.:06:40.

drowning him under a sea of figures. Jeremy Corbyn, new suit, proper

:06:41.:06:47.

tire, and up to the collar, now David Cameron's mother only needs to

:06:48.:06:52.

teach him how to do a Windsor knot! That was a Windsor knot... I thought

:06:53.:07:02.

you would say that. I do it automatically, I do not even know

:07:03.:07:09.

how to do it if you ask me, it is automatic! Isn't the problem, there

:07:10.:07:14.

is the other things on the news agenda, that Jeremy Corbyn's

:07:15.:07:19.

contribution to PMQs is largely likely to be ignored. It is a

:07:20.:07:24.

strategic choice that he has made, not to follow the Westminster

:07:25.:07:27.

agenda, to do his own thing, to settle on the issues he wants to

:07:28.:07:36.

settle on, it is right for the government to be challenged on these

:07:37.:07:39.

policies, what frustrates Labour MPs is two things, the execution of

:07:40.:07:43.

this, if we go on education, don't go on everything, don't go on class

:07:44.:07:49.

sizes... Choose one thing. Really nail in on this, jabber away, all

:07:50.:07:53.

six questions, when you get to the fifth or sixth, you get to expose

:07:54.:08:00.

prime ministers. They have run out of their brief. Labour MPs are also

:08:01.:08:03.

frustrated that they have nothing to say on the issue of the moment,

:08:04.:08:07.

Britain's place in the European Union. I know this will be a long

:08:08.:08:11.

campaign with many months to go but it is the only thing that

:08:12.:08:15.

Westminster and politicians and the newspapers are talking about. A lot

:08:16.:08:18.

of Labour MPs are frustrated that they are almost not having a voice

:08:19.:08:23.

in this debate, that begins to worry them. That is true, perhaps

:08:24.:08:28.

inevitably, because the big divisions are inside the

:08:29.:08:32.

Conservative Party, but the debate, the argument, seems to be taking

:08:33.:08:36.

place almost with Labour having a walk on part. I wonder if that is

:08:37.:08:41.

also not because a lot of people, including on your own side, feel

:08:42.:08:44.

that his heart is not quite in it, when it was the big in day last

:08:45.:08:50.

Saturday, he spoke with a CND rally. I will tell you why he has gone on

:08:51.:08:55.

education. Could you address my question first. And then we will

:08:56.:08:59.

come back. But it is linked, the genesis of your question, why isn't

:09:00.:09:02.

he talking about Europe at the dispatch box, why is he not pressing

:09:03.:09:07.

on the divisions of the Conservative Party, but he is enthusiastically

:09:08.:09:11.

supporting staying in the Hugh the party is supporting that. Where we

:09:12.:09:17.

have seen that enthusiasm...? Backing the campaign, the Shadow

:09:18.:09:22.

Cabinet is fully supportive. He went to a CND rally last Saturday, that

:09:23.:09:28.

was meant to be Labour's day of in and it was full remain... Going to

:09:29.:09:34.

the CND rally, all of the headlines were about Jeremy Corbyn going

:09:35.:09:39.

there. Bottom line, we are trying to create a division in the Labour

:09:40.:09:43.

Party which does not exist. Every single Labour MP is enthusiastically

:09:44.:09:48.

supporting the campaign to stay in the European Union, you have seen a

:09:49.:09:51.

premises question, the divisions are on the Conservatives. We are very

:09:52.:09:55.

united in the message the Labour Party is putting out, the reason

:09:56.:09:59.

Jeremy Corbyn did not go on the European Union today on the dispatch

:10:00.:10:03.

box, most parents are founding out this week which secondary school

:10:04.:10:06.

their children will be going too, very current in terms of ordinary

:10:07.:10:09.

parents up and down the country, they will watch that and think, I

:10:10.:10:13.

have just had a letter which means I cannot get into the secondary

:10:14.:10:16.

school, even I live in the catchment area. Given that he chose to go on

:10:17.:10:27.

that area, why did he not include, from the Institute for Fiscal

:10:28.:10:31.

Studies, these quite serious figures about the growth of child poverty.

:10:32.:10:36.

About the end of the decade. Surely, for a Labour leader, it is an easy

:10:37.:10:41.

link, as well, to link education and child poverty, did not even mention

:10:42.:10:47.

that. New has mention the national audit in terms of education. I am

:10:48.:10:56.

not in the room when he is discussing what to do. Why not?

:10:57.:11:00.

Would you like to be? LAUGHTER You write some very good jokes for

:11:01.:11:06.

the Prime Minister. That Acropolis one was terrible. The Leader of the

:11:07.:11:12.

Opposition can go on a plethora of subjects, going through the analysis

:11:13.:11:15.

of what is best, one of the things he's trying to do is go on real

:11:16.:11:19.

issues, rather than fuelling this Westminster bubble of continually

:11:20.:11:22.

banging on about Europe. What is the point of being Labour leader if you

:11:23.:11:26.

do not highlight a potentially devastating report on child poverty?

:11:27.:11:31.

It is important that he does. But also... It is also important to the

:11:32.:11:36.

party leader to be on the side of parents who are really concerned

:11:37.:11:39.

about the shortages of school places, who are receiving those

:11:40.:11:43.

letters this week. He is raising that issue directly with the prime

:11:44.:11:46.

and it, why are you not sorting this? Coming back to Europe, are you

:11:47.:11:53.

worried? You need Scottish national votes and Labour votes to win -- he

:11:54.:11:58.

is raising that issue directly with the Prime Minister. Are you worried

:11:59.:12:05.

about Jeremy Corbyn's enthusiasm for Europe? The Labour Party is pretty

:12:06.:12:14.

much united in favour of in. There is a huge amount of Labour support

:12:15.:12:23.

for that position. Are you worried about the apparent lack of

:12:24.:12:27.

enthusiasm from Jeremy Corbyn? Not really. The thing that lay beneath

:12:28.:12:31.

the more to get the Labour vote out. Jeremy Corbyn is not the most

:12:32.:12:35.

appealing political figure for the general public. We need the voices

:12:36.:12:45.

that the public trust. Would you share a stage with him? I'm not

:12:46.:12:49.

planning on, I think that he has said that he will not share a

:12:50.:12:53.

platform with any of us, but it is about allowing people to decide. I

:12:54.:13:00.

don't think Jeremy Corbyn... Doesn't matter what he says? It is ordinary

:13:01.:13:05.

voices that will win or lose this, not all editions. It could be won or

:13:06.:13:11.

lost on turnout. If you want to stay in Europe, you need to get the vote

:13:12.:13:16.

out. It is not about Jeremy Corbyn, it is about the argument, the case,

:13:17.:13:20.

the economy will be stronger. One question that was very accurate, the

:13:21.:13:24.

Prime Minister should have been brave enough to say to the Tories,

:13:25.:13:28.

we have a deal, we are voting in, the fact he has not done that makes

:13:29.:13:32.

a huge split, makes it more difficult to win it. Indeed. Final

:13:33.:13:38.

thought? Many people in the Labour Party are worried by the

:13:39.:13:42.

leadership's slight hint of equivocation when it comes to the

:13:43.:13:46.

issue, they suspect that is one of the reason Jeremy Corbyn does not

:13:47.:13:49.

like doing that, getting into positions. I offer Peter Mandelson

:13:50.:13:53.

the opportunity to be critical of Jeremy Corbyn yesterday, was very

:13:54.:13:57.

cautious about it, he said he is the right man, there is a definite sense

:13:58.:14:00.

from the pro-Remain campaign the Labour side that they do not want to

:14:01.:14:04.

get into a fight with the leadership over this. During the referendum.

:14:05.:14:10.

They want to keep the ceasefire on Europe intact. We will have to see

:14:11.:14:13.

what we can do about that(!) Sticking with the issue

:14:14.:14:29.

of the EU referendum, the former Conservative chancellor

:14:30.:14:32.

Norman Lamont has come Earlier this year he took part

:14:33.:14:34.

in a roleplaying exercise as the British minister in charge

:14:35.:14:39.

of negotiations if Britain voted was greater control over our

:14:40.:14:42.

borders. We would seek to introduce

:14:43.:14:48.

legislation to that effect. We would be willing to explore

:14:49.:14:50.

a number of options on that front. If we had our own system,

:14:51.:14:53.

perhaps a points system, we could seek to give a bias

:14:54.:14:56.

towards EU nationals what took you so long to officially

:14:57.:15:23.

come out and say, when clearly you were on that side? I was war-gaming

:15:24.:15:28.

on the assumption that was given to me by the organisers of the session,

:15:29.:15:32.

I have never ever in the past said that we should come out, as long ago

:15:33.:15:40.

as 1994I made a speech saying the time may come when we have to choose

:15:41.:15:43.

between a much more politically integrated Europe and leaving. The

:15:44.:15:49.

way that Europe has gone since then, I think as adequately fulfilled the

:15:50.:15:54.

warnings I gave then, I think Europe is at a fork and we must choose. It

:15:55.:15:59.

is still taking quite a long time. We have at the renegotiated package

:16:00.:16:02.

from the Prime Minister. What was the turmoil in your mind? It is a

:16:03.:16:09.

big decision, altering the policy of this country over 40 years, it means

:16:10.:16:13.

having a disagreement with colleagues within one's own party. I

:16:14.:16:18.

did not want to rush into it, but I thought and thought and came to the

:16:19.:16:22.

view, you say it is not surprising that I can do it but I did. Do you

:16:23.:16:26.

feel like in some ways you are betraying your colleagues, like the

:16:27.:16:31.

primers to? No, this is a big decision, splitting friends and

:16:32.:16:35.

families, so important, one must recognise the right of people to

:16:36.:16:39.

disagree with you. And after all, that is the purpose of a referendum.

:16:40.:16:43.

As you say, it is dividing families, dividing friends, dividing the

:16:44.:16:49.

Conservative Party once again. How difficult is it going to be

:16:50.:16:52.

post-referendum in terms of the unity of the party? I think there is

:16:53.:17:00.

a great awareness of this danger in the Conservative Party and people

:17:01.:17:04.

are very determined that after it is over people should get together and

:17:05.:17:09.

heal the divisions. It is very important that the referendum

:17:10.:17:13.

discussion should be conducted with civility and respect for other

:17:14.:17:16.

people's point of view. You think Iain Duncan Smith was practising

:17:17.:17:19.

that when he described the dossier as dodgy, the government 's dossier.

:17:20.:17:27.

It sets out alternatives, one is entitled to argue about the premise.

:17:28.:17:33.

One is entitled to dispute it. I would seriously disputed as well. Is

:17:34.:17:38.

it dodgy? I think that it is arguable. If you want to keep the

:17:39.:17:46.

civility between the sides, should Iain Duncan Smith the indulging in

:17:47.:17:51.

that kind of language? People will get over it, it is not a great

:17:52.:17:57.

thing. It has been said that there are big risks attached to leaving.

:17:58.:18:08.

Switzerland, Norway, Canada taking seven years, limited access to the

:18:09.:18:13.

single market, going through the World Trade Organisation, resulting

:18:14.:18:15.

in extra tariffs on certain products like food, they are right. I don't

:18:16.:18:22.

think so. The German finance minister has said that were Britain

:18:23.:18:28.

to leave, it would be necessary, necessary, to have a free-trade

:18:29.:18:30.

agreement with Britain. This isn't something Britain has to

:18:31.:18:40.

demand, it's just as important to the other side. Britain is the

:18:41.:18:43.

largest customer the German cars and German manufacturers. They would be

:18:44.:18:46.

desperate to know the terms on which they would be able to sell into the

:18:47.:18:51.

UK and so an agreement is absolutely on both sides' interest. The country

:18:52.:18:56.

you didn't mention was the United States. The United States actually

:18:57.:19:01.

sells into Europe since 2011 more than we do. We compare with Norway,

:19:02.:19:07.

we compare with Switzerland but the United States actually sells more

:19:08.:19:12.

than we do. Nobody is saying, or they shouldn't be saying, that there

:19:13.:19:16.

wouldn't be some sort of deal. The question mark is, how much turmoil

:19:17.:19:20.

there could be while the deal is being made. It's not just the

:19:21.:19:24.

government. You've even got a US fund manager saying that Brexit

:19:25.:19:27.

offers a lot of risk with little obvious reward top equity, sterling

:19:28.:19:31.

and the London property market would all be likely to suffer and we've

:19:32.:19:35.

seen some proof of that recently with sterling. Sterling has been

:19:36.:19:41.

lower than this during the life of this government and nobody commented

:19:42.:19:46.

whatsoever. You trotted out Black Rock. I could run you through a list

:19:47.:19:49.

of companies and fund managers this very morning... Legal and general

:19:50.:19:55.

said it would have no effect on their business. Take Neil Woodford,

:19:56.:20:02.

who is one of the staff and managers of this country, who said it is very

:20:03.:20:05.

difficult to argue it would have any great effect. Take Eleanor Morris E,

:20:06.:20:11.

who runs Newton asset management. There are lots of people who say

:20:12.:20:14.

economically it will make no difference and that is what I

:20:15.:20:19.

believe. But which model would you choose? There's a letter now from

:20:20.:20:23.

Nick Herbert that has just been published, the chairman of the

:20:24.:20:27.

Conservatives. It has been said to Ian Duncan Smith specifically but it

:20:28.:20:31.

says, you have said that if Britain were to be leave the EU we wouldn't

:20:32.:20:35.

copy any other country's deal and have a settlement on our own terms.

:20:36.:20:39.

Do you agree with Iain Duncan Smith that it would be different to what

:20:40.:20:42.

has ever been settled with other countries? Yes, I think it ought to

:20:43.:20:46.

be a special deal for top obviously, one can't say in every detail what

:20:47.:20:50.

it would be like because it is... Even in broad detail. Let me finish.

:20:51.:20:54.

Because it is subject to negotiation. But Jack Delors has

:20:55.:21:02.

gone out of his way to say he recognises that Britain historically

:21:03.:21:07.

is interested in the economic son should have a special arrangement.

:21:08.:21:10.

He said that would not be difficult to arrange. Of course in this period

:21:11.:21:15.

when people are trying to persuade Britain to vote to stay on, people

:21:16.:21:19.

are going to say it is going to be difficult. In reality, it won't be.

:21:20.:21:24.

Is it a fair playing field, a fair fight on both sides? Advocate is

:21:25.:21:29.

reasonably fair. I think the funding arrangements, but that goes back to

:21:30.:21:32.

the Blair government, are very odd and not entirely fair. The civil

:21:33.:21:37.

service papers? Do you feel very strongly that they should be given

:21:38.:21:40.

to ministers on both sides of the argument? I'm not a member of the

:21:41.:21:44.

government. This issue doesn't really concern me. What I understood

:21:45.:21:50.

Jeremy Hayward to say was that civil servants could not provide political

:21:51.:21:58.

lines for those who were in favour of Brexit to pursue and that seems

:21:59.:22:02.

to be entirely reasonable. But some of the exit terms that were outlined

:22:03.:22:06.

to don't seem to be that different to what our relationship would be

:22:07.:22:10.

like if we were to remain. You have implied that we would accept the

:22:11.:22:14.

existing body of EU law and regulation analysis of the fine

:22:15.:22:17.

matters and ensure a deal could be completed in the next decade.

:22:18.:22:22.

Preferential access for EU citizens under whatever deal is reached. And

:22:23.:22:27.

that Britain should chip in to the EU budget other gesture of goodwill.

:22:28.:22:31.

What's different? Economically, I think things would be very similar

:22:32.:22:38.

but the issue is, you can say why, then, exit? We would be free of this

:22:39.:22:44.

juggernaut of integration. Whatever barriers Britain direct the European

:22:45.:22:49.

Court of Justice, the European Parliament find ways around. They

:22:50.:22:53.

are masters at bending the rules. Take the bailout of Ireland which

:22:54.:22:57.

was plainly illegal, plainly illegal. Christine Lagarde admitted

:22:58.:23:00.

such but they just did it nonetheless. Thank you.

:23:01.:23:06.

Should Apple help the FBI to unlocking iPhone used by one of the

:23:07.:23:12.

gunmen responsible for the San Bernardino shootings? The FBI thinks

:23:13.:23:16.

so and argued in a congressional hearing yesterday that Apple's

:23:17.:23:20.

encryption was a vicious guard dog that hurts national security. A

:23:21.:23:23.

short jump back across the pond, the UK Government food web published a

:23:24.:23:27.

revised version of its much criticised investigatory Powers

:23:28.:23:27.

bill. In our Soapbox this week,

:23:28.:23:37.

Hugo Rifkind asks whether politicians are right to be circling

:23:38.:23:39.

on Apple and other tech companies, before reflecting on whether all

:23:40.:23:42.

of the fights they've picked surrounding internet security

:23:43.:23:44.

and freedom are the right ones. The San Bernardino shooting

:23:45.:23:47.

in December last year left 14 dead. Who wouldn't want to

:23:48.:23:49.

help the police get to the bottom of it,

:23:50.:23:51.

whatever it takes? Well, Apple wouldn't,

:23:52.:23:53.

or so the accusation goes, and seemingly all because of one

:23:54.:23:55.

of these - a phone with a pass lock and some pretty

:23:56.:23:59.

sophisticated encryption. The company has been

:24:00.:24:03.

accused of placing commercial interests

:24:04.:24:04.

over national security. What "commercial interests" means

:24:05.:24:07.

for Apple is people still wanting So, is it any surprise

:24:08.:24:11.

that Apple wants to We're often told that people

:24:12.:24:17.

who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear but who doesn't

:24:18.:24:22.

have something to hide? Music lovers who illegally

:24:23.:24:25.

download a few songs, box set lovers who Torrent,

:24:26.:24:29.

and then there's internet porn But if you did, would you really

:24:30.:24:32.

want a record kept? Think of that information

:24:33.:24:40.

being hacked or flung Freedom flows on the internet like a

:24:41.:24:42.

river. Nothing spurs innovation

:24:43.:24:48.

like being told you can't do something but these

:24:49.:24:50.

innovations weren't devised Often they were popularised

:24:51.:24:53.

to shield more minor crimes, such as buying drugs,

:24:54.:24:57.

or for simple privacy. But the lesson here is

:24:58.:25:03.

that the dogged online onanist is not a man you'd want

:25:04.:25:05.

in your enemy's corner, The battles we were always bound

:25:06.:25:08.

to lose against digital piracy, pornography and soft drugs have

:25:09.:25:14.

bequeathed us a world in which the battles that really

:25:15.:25:17.

matter, against terrorism and organised crime, are much,

:25:18.:25:20.

much harder to fight. Hugo Rifkind is with us now, having

:25:21.:25:38.

played his chance at being Doctor Who. Should Apple help or turn its

:25:39.:25:42.

back on the law in this case? It's not quite that simple. It's easy to

:25:43.:25:46.

say Apple should help in one case if they possibly can. A pretty

:25:47.:25:51.

important case. It's cleverly possible the FBI can get into this

:25:52.:25:54.

phone by themselves if they wanted to and this is a test case to

:25:55.:25:58.

establish a precedent. The point is that if you place an onus on tech

:25:59.:26:01.

companies to break encryption like this, what they're going to do, what

:26:02.:26:05.

Apple is doing, is try to develop products where they can't break the

:26:06.:26:08.

cushion because that removes the responsible as you from them --

:26:09.:26:14.

removes the responsibility from them. In the battle against terror,

:26:15.:26:24.

people will say this is a special case. This is not the same as

:26:25.:26:28.

perhaps other crimes that could be seen as less challenging to national

:26:29.:26:32.

security and that surely Loren for is that agencies have to be able to

:26:33.:26:36.

do their job to gather evidence? -- law enforcement agencies. You could

:26:37.:26:41.

argue that. Firstly if you damaging corruption like this, it isn't just

:26:42.:26:45.

security services that benefit, criminals benefit. If security and

:26:46.:26:48.

terrorism special case then we need to be very careful with things like

:26:49.:26:52.

our own investigatory Powers bill which vastly boosts the powers that

:26:53.:26:55.

the police have. Other law-enforcement agencies have

:26:56.:27:01.

private data. This essentially gives terrorists allies. Matthew Hancock,

:27:02.:27:09.

should Apple be cooperating? Well, in the UK, we're proposing, as Hugo

:27:10.:27:13.

said, a new set of laws with a balance. Of course you've got to the

:27:14.:27:17.

tech National Security Council pits the first duty of the state. But the

:27:18.:27:23.

way we're proposing to get through this in the UK context is to make

:27:24.:27:27.

sure that there are safeguards so that the warrant requires a judge to

:27:28.:27:34.

sign off in order to show... Both to make sure in the specifics that it

:27:35.:27:38.

is in the national interest but also to demonstrate... David Davis says

:27:39.:27:42.

the judge will just be signing of what the Home Secretary said. That's

:27:43.:27:47.

how judges act. -- not how judges at. How would companies like Apple

:27:48.:27:53.

be forced to remove the encryption on their messaging software? The

:27:54.:27:59.

proposal in the bill is that with the check by the judiciary and

:28:00.:28:05.

therefore this being independent and decided on, whether it is in the

:28:06.:28:09.

national interest, you have that check there and that would be

:28:10.:28:12.

required by law. Hugo Rifkind, thank you.

:28:13.:28:15.

There's just time to put you out of your misery and give

:28:16.:28:18.

Hit the big red button. Let's see what happens.

:28:19.:28:38.

You fulfil your role very expertly. -- fulfilled.

:28:39.:28:40.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:28:41.:28:44.

Jo and I will be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political

:28:45.:28:48.

No doubt the European referendum will be rumbling on and the official

:28:49.:28:53.

campaign hasn't even started yet! And we've got another four months or

:28:54.:28:57.

so of it. Can't get enough.

:28:58.:28:59.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Matt Hancock and Ian Murray for coverage of Prime Minister's Questions. Also on the programme, Super Tuesday and what it all means, plus Apple's battle with the FBI on encryption.


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