03/03/2016 Daily Politics

Faslane Trident, and the future of the BBC. The First Minister

referring to bright young journalists. 23 isn't bad.

your subsidies? Do you want money from the British government, and

then you can lobby the British government on how they spend it? I

understand that you would spend it in a better way. But it is not a

saving. Well, it is a saving, because you are talking about the

match funding and mentioned and the strings you have. Of course we are

going to spend it. Whole point of the Leave campaign is that we will

have this money that we are giving to the European Union to spend at

home way we want. Let me welcome our viewers in Scotland who have been

watching First Minister's Questions in Edinburgh. You now join us in an

argument of figures for the remaining and leave campaign. What

do you make of it? There are obviously costs to being in the

European Union. But basic economics suggests that if you reduced tariffs

and you reduce non-trade tariff barriers, precisely the things that

Boris Johnson complained about, that he couldn't change the cab window on

lorries, that is in order that everybody else doesn't and we can

sell our goods across Europe. Alimentary economics suggests that

we will make money out of that. All of us will have a view as to whether

or not the exchange we make in which we have more influence on what the

continent does and they have more influence on us is a worthwhile

exchange. Unfortunately, lots of these figures shine no light on

anything, because people don't know exactly what the dimensions are. But

if you ask me, elementary market economics suggests, as Harold

Macmillan and every conservative Prime Minister has argued since

1961, that if you have a free market across Europe with a larger internal

market, it will make people better off. I believe that our tolerance,

social cohesion and international peace depends on our prosperity and

it is a worthwhile deal. Jack Straw. I beg your pardon, Will Straw.

Stuart Rose has said nothing will happen if we came out of Europe in

the next five years. There will be no change, he said. What happened to

a decade of uncertainty? He was asked about that again yesterday by

Steve Baker, one of the members of the committee and a prominent

campaigner to leave. And he clarified his remarks and said, what

I was saying was that the lights would not go out the day afterwards,

but you would start to get effects. He said there would be absolutely no

change. You are quoting something he said some months ago. Yesterday, he

clarified his remarks. Since he joined the campaign, there has been

a series of economic studies put out by HSBC and Morgan Stanley saying we

would fall into recession. On the question of wages, it is not a good

idea to give each individual more wages unless their productivity goes

up, otherwise we will have lots of unemployment. Stuart Rose has been a

brilliant chair so far. The important point he was making guest

today and that we are making is that you can argue about the figures, but

the benefits of being in the EU out whether costs. We cannot judge that

unless we argue about the figures! But the figures we are arguing about

our ten times larger than the cost figure. Even if we were out, the

balance would be on our side. We will leave it there.

Yesterday, the Government responded to what has become Parliament's most

popular petition, which saw 800,000 people calling for the meningitis B

vaccine to be offered to all children under 11.

At present, it's only to be offered to children in the first year

But the Department of Health has rejected the call, saying it's

following expert advice and that extending the vaccination

Well, one MP raised the issue at Prime Minister's Questions

and Giles is with her on College Green.

I am indeed. It has to be said, 815,000 yesterday is a huge number.

It is the most supported petition ever. I suspect a lot of parents

simply think it would be great to save more children's lives. Helen

Whately, you raised this in PMQs. Can the government do more? Can they

do what the petition is asking? I raised this because not only is it

my constituents who are the parents of a child who died, it is an awful

disease and they have asked me to be a voice for their concerns and

wanted to prevent other children suffering. So I want to push the

government to look at this again. But they have looked at this. They

followed the advice of the joint committee on vaccination and

immunisation. And the advice was that we cannot extend this, it is

not cost-effective. Presumably, they have little room for manoeuvre. I

know they are looking at whether it is possible to start vaccinating

teenagers to provide herd immunity which protects young children as

well. There is also work going on to look at how assessments are made on

cost effectiveness of vaccinations. I am pushing for that work to

happen. Do you accept that cost is, however heartless, a consideration

in these decisions? There is always somebody that falls outside this,

however tragically. It is difficult to talk about cost when dealing with

a disease as horrid as meningitis B, but you do have to look at the best

way to use a limited amount of NHS resources. We have to make sure the

money is well spent. But you could look again at the cost effectiveness

and public awareness. Is there a problem that when you are shifting

funding from one part of the NHS, but taking it from an area where

there are other people saying, hang on, we need to fund this drug more

effectively? Exactly, there are difficult choices to be made between

treatment and vaccination and between different vaccination

programmes. I want to see more emphasis put on prevention and

vaccination overtreatment. Do you think the government will change his

mind? I think the government is taking this seriously. I suspect

that petition will go a bit higher before this gets debated.

Now, what, if anything, do all these politicians

We're gonna win with trade, we'll win with the military,

we're gonna win with Obamacare. We're replacing it.

We can cause the biggest political shock

that has been seen in modern British political history.

We can cause an earthquake on May 22nd

All the pundits are calling the race for Clinton.

That means we're probably going to win in a landslide!

they're all examples of anti-establishment rebels

who have upset the traditional political order.

But are they all part of a trend, and perhaps more importantly,

will they ever translate that impact into elected office?

we're joined by the Guardian columnist Owen Jones.

Danny Finkelstein is still with us. In this antiestablishment kick, it

is true to say that there is likely to be, on the right is on the left?

Yes, and all across the western world at the moment, there is quite

a febrile atmosphere, with huge amounts of political discontent

going in two directions. That is populist parties of the xenophobic

right, and new movement on the left. And they vary enormously. In the

United States, you have Bernie Sanders, a sceptre generic

socialist, and then you have the demagogic plutocrat Bob Trump. In

Britain, you have the rise of the SNP, you have the Greens and the

court bin phenomenon and then Ukip. In France, you have the far right

National Front. In Spain, the left-wing party Podemos. And across

Scandinavia, anti-immigrant parties and then Greek Syriza. There is huge

discontent and the fear of people like me is that we have not

recovered from the last economic crisis. It is a mugs game predicting

the next crisis, but if there is one, the danger is the likes of

Nigel Farage and Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen in France of the

National Front being better organised. We have already learned

that from America, because Mr Trump is almost certainly going to be the

Republican nominee for president. And Mr Sanders is certainly not

going to be the Democrat nominee. I suppose with Sanders, he failed to

inspire particularly African-Americans. I saw your column

always insightful. I genuinely found that fascinating. You said it was

rich college kids fuelling Bernie Sanders, but he has actually done

well amongst low income white Americans, but failed with

African-Americans. Certainly in the United States, as elsewhere in other

countries, for example in Spain, you have not had a successful populist

right movement. It has gone to the left. But Podemos will not be in the

next government. We don't know that yet. But the fear I have is that

unless people who believe as I would put it, in the politics of hope, get

their act together, it will be the xenophobic right who benefit. But if

you look at the Bernie Sanders campaign, if you look at the state

he won in New Hampshire and so on, his support came overwhelmingly from

white middle-class people like yourself. No. YouGov looked at New

Hampshire, and they found among African-Americans that he failed to

inspire them. Clinton is doing well there. But with New Hampshire, they

found that Bernie Sanders overwhelmingly won amongst the

lowest income brackets, was Hillary Clinton won amongst the highest

income brackets. But the turnout amongst the lowest income white

voters was very low. Whereas the turnout among college tutor and is,

among white middle-class folk like yourself, was huge. Well, regardless

of the turnout, he did a lot better amongst low-income Americans. The

issue with the Democrats, he is doing better amongst low white

Americans. The Democrats have failed to excite and mobilise their

existing supporters in the way Donald Trump outs. Donald Trump's

supporters are often Americans who are hurting. Their wages have been

falling. This is not about it being a personality cult. Anybody on the

left, regardless of whether you are going to dismiss middle-class

students, actually, people who go to university who you call middle-class

are often people struggling with jobs who are lacking a secure

future. You cannot pin an election on them alone. Isn't it true that

everywhere you look on both sides of the Atlantic and on both sides of

the Channel, the mainstream is under attack, and in some places losing

power? In some places, that is true. But one thing those four have in

common is that none of them have won power and I don't think they will.

But they have in other places. Syriza has won in Greece. The hard

right has won in Poland. There is a very strange government taking over

in Croatia. They are doing well in Finland and Sweden. I acknowledge

that we are seeing something real, and these people represent real

change. Ukip scoring 12% was significant, but I don't think it is

just the new revolt against the elite. Firstly, we have always had

revolts against the elite. When Spencer Percival was assassinated in

1812, people cheered in Parliament Square. That was how his wife found

out he was dead. There has always been hatred for establishments. But

traditional Labour and Conservative, right and love politics, which have

managed to hold together liberal and affluent people with less well off

people who have security concerns, those are being pulled apart by

various economic features which we would agree on. For example, the

fact that robotics and globalisation are suppressing the wages of

unskilled workers, and they feel more insecure and they are turning

to populist movements particularly as they revolt. So you agree with

him? Not quite, because it still remains the case that political

success in the main lies with getting coalitions that bring those

groups together. And the revolts against booze parties which have

always existed have become greater and pulled those coalitions apart.

But that will not produce electoral victory. It is true to say that the

centre-left and the centre-right honour under assault almost

everywhere you look. Very much so. Part of what we are seeing is a

crisis of traditional social democracy, because the traditional

bases has fragmented. The end of the Cold War and the thankful demise of

Soviet totalitarianism was spun as the end of history so that was seen

as not just the Revolutionary Communist left, but even social

democracy was doomed. Then there was the financial crash, because you had

social Democrats supporting austerity. And if you are a Social

Democrats and you don't believe in public investment, what do you have

left to say? In large part, you had a collapse in vision and a

fragmentation of the base. You talked about the primaries in the

United States. They have always disproportionately attracted

affluent voters, which is why it is difficult to draw conclusions.

People in the middle and working class people. It is important not to

dismiss... I am very happy to have Owen Jones defends the middle class

on the Daily Politics. That is why I'm here! Ever since racist Southern

states have had several rights, the Liberals have struggled to gain

power. Yesterday, shadow chancellor

John McDonnell held the latest featuring members of his

economic advisory panel. They're designed to open up

Labour's polic making They're designed to open up

Labour's policy-making and break away from

"Westminster-dominated views" The speaker was the Nobel-prize

winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, and we sent our Adam along to ask

some penetrating questions. in fact, the Shadow Chancellor's

old university, to find out what it's like on his

New Economics tour. Today's special guest,

Professor Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winner and

according to Wikipedia, the fifth most influential economist

in the world. He talked for really quite a long

time, but the gist is that the 1950s was the golden age of capitalism,

especially in the US, and that inequality has been getting

much worse ever since. The median income of

a full-time male worker today is today the same

as it was 40 years ago. That means that for four decades,

young men, men have not seen any

increase in their income. This in a country that says every

generation is going to be doing He reckons these two

deserve the blame for helping the rich to get

richer, in the hope that

everyone would benefit. If Reagan and Thatcher had gone,

if Reagan had come to the American people and said, "I have this

great idea for reform, I have this great reform, the result

of which is that the economy is going to grow more slowly,

but don't worry about it. All the growth that does occur

will go to the top 10%. And if you happen to be so poorly

informed that you choose to be in the bottom 90%, you're

going to be stagnant. If you choose to be in the bottom

50%, you will see your income

decline". Would the American people have

voted for that idea? And he has written a whole book

about how the rules of the economy One of the things that have gone

wrong in our economy is the growth Firms are focused

on the next quarter. are focused on the next

nanosecond. Now, you can't invest for long

in people, technology and machines for long term economic growth

if you focus on the nanosecond It was very high fibre stuff,

for a fairly highbrow audience. Are you guys Butch and Sundance,

Holmes and Watson, Batman and Robin? We are trying to raise

the level of debate. What's interesting is

that the quality of the discussions that have been

taking place have been astounding. Young people in particular have been

flocking to these meetings, with a real understanding

of society, and buzzing with ideas The prof is heading back

to his ivory tower. Following in his footsteps

on Labour's tour, the soon-to-be ex-economics

editor of Channel 4 News, Paul Mason, and the former

Greek finance minister, And we're joined now

by another member of Labour's She's Professor Anastasia

Nesvetailova and she's director of the Political Economy Research

Centre at City University in London. Welcome to the programme. Can you

give us any idea yet what kind of policies the committee is suggesting

Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell should adopt. The concrete content of

policies is still being discussed and developed what I can say is we

are on the same page in developing a more strategic role for the state.

And for economic system is able and has the resources to withstand

short-term and long-term economic risks and uncertainties. Give me an

example of how you would do that. There are two very tangible risks to

the UK Connolly, the short one is Brexit, that could lead to a lot of

losses and very little gains. -- the UK economy, the long-term danger is

a financial bank down coming from the part of the financial system

that is in the so-called shadows, the shadow bank system. The problem

is that although there is an understanding that these are risks,

and the overall economic environment globally is very pessimistic for

2016, monetary and fiscal authorities don't have the resources

to help the economy grow through a potential meltdown. Is the advisory

committee united in urging the Labour Party to keep Britain in the

European Union? Yes, we are in the same page. I personally would have

liked to have seen stronger engagement in the wider, with the

country, about the risks and losses of Brexit. I saw that Joseph

Stiglitz, who we had there, he was saying that if the EU signed up to

TTIP, the free trade agreement that the US and EU are in the process of

negotiating that have not yet agreed, the UK should consider TTIP.

Correct. There is a hypothetical sentence and that particular

statement, but I profoundly disagree with Nobel prizewinner Joseph

Stiglitz on that. You are allowed to! Thank you. I think it is a

misreading of the European project is, that the value of the UK economy

in this total big market and bigger construction is, and it is severely

underestimating the costs, the risks and the consequences of Brexit. It

is a real danger. Even with TTIP, a North Atlantic free trade

arrangement, you would still urge that we stay in? Yes. Is the Labour

leadership open to new ideas, are they soaking up everything?

Eminently so, eminently so, the format of the meetings varies. There

are numbers of parliament sitting there and it is an open discussion

on a variety of topics, then there are some more specialised topical

debates or analysis of particular issues, and there are also public

events, which take part, in terms of educating the public. Which is one

of the things we saw. Exactly, that was the first of them. Speaking just

for yourself, not the advisory committee, what is the one policy of

all others you would urge Labour to adopt? Strategic role for the state,

investment in people and infrastructure, for balancing the

financial economic divide. That is an aspiration, it is not a policy.

It is, but with this aspiration comes a concrete set of

institutions. And you have that to give to Labour? Together, yes. When

will we get a report? You will have to ask them! We will, Professor,

thank you. Now, if you were worrying

that we haven't mentioned the EU referendum in the last

few minutes, fear not. We're going to take a look at some

new research by the pollster YouGov which claims to rank every part

of the country according to how much it's in favour of, or against,

our continued membership Ellie, who dreamed of being

a weather presenter, before accepting

defeat and becoming a political correspondent, is here

with the Eurosceptic forecast They didn't even trust me with one

of those clicking things, but there were go.

So let's have a look at where the winds of euroscepticism

- and of europhilia - are blowing across the UK,

according to the pollster YouGov, which has based its work

There's a real storm of criticism of our continued membership

of the EU here in the London borough of Havering, which the research

named the most eurosceptic place in Britain.

But Havering goes against the trend for London, as five of the ten most

europhile boroughs are in the capital.

They are Lambeth, Camden, Southwark, Hackney and Brent.

According to YouGov, there's a real hotspot in favour

of membership in Ceredigion in rural West Wales,

that's been named the most pro-EU place in the country.

It is followed by Aberdeen and Stirling, and, elsewhere

in Scotland, West Dunbartonshire and the city of Edinburgh feature

On the Eurosceptic side, all of the areas most likely

There're a strong band of them here in the South East,

with Peterborough, Bracknell Forest, and the coastal town

of Southend-on-Sea all on the satellite.

That Eurosceptic breeze is also to be keenly felt on the northwest

coast in Blackpool, as well as in nearby Blackburn,

then down the road a little bit in sunny Warrington,

South Tyneside is in for some spells of euroscepticism, as is the borough

Andrew, back to you for some more sunshine.

We always have sunshine! Thanks, Delhi.

And Joe Twyman of the research firm YouGov is here now.

What can you tell us about the differing demographics, by and large

of the in campaign and the out campaign, people who are likely to

vote either way? We know there are some groups who are particularly

likely to lean one way or the other. It won't be a surprise to hear that

Guardian readers wish to stay, and Daily Mail and express leaders --

readers wish to stay. But the demographics, it is to do with age.

If you are a younger person, particularly 18 to 30, you are

significantly more likely to vote to stay in, and if you are an older

person, particularly over the age of 60, who are more likely to wish to

leave. Then there are also things with education for instance. On the

map, when you look in detail, you can see that university towns are

far more likely to stay in, because university graduates are far more

likely to want to stay, whereas people with fewer educational

qualifications, they are more likely to want to go. Is there an element

of establishment in, antiestablishment out? Yes, by no

means overwhelmingly the case, there are still those who are conservative

with a small sea, and with a large sea, who wished to lead and that is

not a surprise. But there is a group of people -- who wish to leave. But

the people who left behind. You see that in some of the towns, Southend

and Clacton. Absolutely, yes. We will come back to that, thank you.

The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

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