24/03/2016 Daily Politics


24/03/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by journalist Steve Richards to discuss the latest developments following the Brussels terror attacks and whether EU membership makes us safer.


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The British head of Europol has warned of new, unprecedented threats

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posed by the Islamic State group in Europe.

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He says that up to 5,000 jihadists could be at large

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across Europe, far more than initially feared.

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EU ministers meet again today to discuss better

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intelligence-sharing following the suicide bombings in Brussels

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Is Britain safer in or out of the EU?

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The former head of MI6 and the Defence Secretary,

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Michael Fallon, have very different views.

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Junior doctors say they won't provide emergency medical care

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during a two-day strike next month. The Department of Health have called

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the move desperate and irresponsible.

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And Jeremy Corbyn says he knows nothing about the Labour list that

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But David Cameron seems to know who is on it and where they stand.

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We've got "core support", I think you can include me

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We've got "core plus", the Chief Whip is being a bit quiet

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And with us for the duration, Conservative MEP Dan Hannan

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and Steve Richards from the Independent.

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Now, first this morning, to Brussels.

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EU interior and justice ministers are due to hold a crisis meeting

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today to discuss the need for better intelligence-gathering and sharing

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in the wake of Tuesday's suicide bombings.

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Belgian police are stepping up their search for a fourth suspect

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in the attacks, who survived because his bomb didn't detonate.

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Let's talk now to our Europe correspondent Chris Morris,

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Can you give us the latest in terms of the manhunt. At least one person

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is being sought, that is versus. -- for certain. The man in the black --

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white jacket and black hat was carrying the largest bomb which only

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exploded later, after the initial blast. If it had gone off as planned

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the number of dead would have been considerably higher. We have no ID

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on him. Nobody has said who that individual might be. There is the

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possibility of a second suspect taking part in the bombing at

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Maelbeek Metrocentre, behind me here, good news this morning signs

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of life getting back together here today. CCTV footage shows another

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man with a bad standing next to the named suicide bomber Khalid

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el-Bakraoui, we know that this is a network. It wasn't just an isolated

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cell. It appears to be the biggest network of this Islamist militancy

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that Europe has ever encountered. The numbers were larger than people

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thought. What is being discussed at this meeting about better

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intelligence sharing. The lodging is -- the logic is from that that there

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was a failing in intelligence. Some people would say that some countries

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aren't up to the task, including Belgium, many would say. Some say

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that countries are reluctant to share the crucial intelligence that

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they may have. One of the things here in Belgium is the squabbling

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multilevel nature of government. By pulling information, bits of who is

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responsible always seems to fall through the cracks. Two things they

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are going to be talking about at this crisis meeting. Let's not

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forget that they had a meeting after the Charlie Hebdo attacks last year

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and the Paris attacks in November. Better sharing of data and

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intelligence is high on the list. High on the list for the French

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government has been the sharing of data of airline passengers. Names,

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and so forth, of who is travelling around Europe. That is becoming

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entwined in the debate about civil liberties, held up in the European

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Parliament. There is a feeling that the balance between security and

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liberty is something democratic societies have dog about when they

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are under attack like this. Governments feel that there has to

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be more emphasis on security. -- half to talk about.

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Yesterday, BBC Panorama took a detailed look at the terror

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The programme featured the testimony of an accomplice of

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Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the man who masterminded the Paris

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Several months before those killings, he told police about how

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He gave me some shooting lessons by showing me how

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He made me shoot round by round and in bursts.

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He trained me to use a handgun and a green

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He told me it was set on three seconds.

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He told me to take the weapon and throw the grenade inside.

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Wait for a small explosion and then to retrieve the targets.

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I went in, shot three targets, and then the grenade exploded.

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I was bleeding from the arm and in the leg.

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He just told me to choose an easy target.

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Imagine a rock concert in a European country.

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He specified, the best thing to do is to wait

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there for the intervention forces and die fighting with hostages.

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He told me, whoever rushes against the

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enemy would have to have the reward of two martyrs.

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And Peter Taylor, one of the reporters from last night's

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Congratulations on the documentary. A superb piece of work. On the

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broader picture, we are seeing briefings from the intelligence

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services that there is a hard-core of 400-600 highly trained, largely

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in Syria, Islamist working for an Islamic State external command whose

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job is to come back here and do the kind of thing in Paris and Brussels.

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Is that your understanding? My understanding is that there are a

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number of trained jihadis trained in Europe. It is interesting that the

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ringleader of this network, that network didn't die with him but he

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told his cousin that he had sent, just before he was killed, that he

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had sent I think it was 90 jihadists to attack Europe. The evidence also

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comes from the meeting that we saw was held in October in which it was

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expressed concern about him and reports that he was planning to send

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90 trained jihadists to attack Europe. Clearly, the threat is still

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there from the remnants of the network. And from others that we

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don't know. I would question the number of 400 or 500 trained jihadis

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ready to storm Europe but there are numbers and they are causing great

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concern. It is my understanding that they are deeply trained in weapons

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and surveillance, countersurveillance and special

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forces techniques. That is absolutely right. In the clip we

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have seen, that particular individual was given a crash course

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because he had a French passport that was about to expire so they

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wanted to use him with a valid passport, a measure of their

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sophistication. What makes them so worrying, different from anything

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else that we have seen is that they are trained, military operators sent

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to Europe to do this. We have never seen this before. That is the worry.

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Prior to this, the way I S operated was by inspiring people to carry out

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lone wolf, lone operator attacks. This is an escalation of the threat

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and it is extremely serious. The question is, what happens next? When

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the IRA broke into a devolved cell structure to make it harder to break

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and what is known within a smaller number of people, am I right

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thinking that what we have is something between a cell structure

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and a network. Not quite as enclosed, but not quite a network.

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My understanding is that they are no longer depending on orders from

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Syria but to take virginity is as they see them? -- to take

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opportunities. A network consists of several cells. The IRA cells were

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run by the England department which is not unlike the external

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operations department of IS. That network is made of different cells,

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the attack cells that attacked Paris and Brussels and the logistical

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cells, Salah Abdeslam, who was arrested last week was in charge of

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them. You have to have guns, safe houses, rented cars. Nobody knows

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how many cells there are. The logistical cells are just as

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important as the attack cells. Once you have identified the logistical

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cells, which is very difficult, you can begin to identify the attack

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cells. It is very interesting that within almost a week they were able

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to get ammunition and explosives to carry out the attacks in Brussels

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this week. When did it dawn on us, when did we realise that Brussels

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had become the epicentre of Islamist terrorism? We knew that because

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Belgian intelligence, Belgian MI5, I viewed the former head of that

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agency, he told me he gave me endless warnings and to politicians

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about the growing threat from jihadis and what it involved for

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Belgium and the rest of Europe. He said the politicians didn't want to

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know about it. It is a question of stable doors and horses. If you look

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at the question here, our intelligence services are joined up.

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It is as a direct result of the 7-7 bombings. Belgium wasn't joined up

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and that is why there are so many cracks and it is widely IS operators

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manage to get through. If you want an AK-47, it is not a huge problem

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in Brussels. Not in Brussels or mainland Europe but very difficult

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here. If you look at the Shepherd's Bush case, that culminated yesterday

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when two men were found guilty, the weapon there was a small handgun. We

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don't see - touch wood- automatic weapons being used here. Very

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difficult to get them. I think it has been established that the man in

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your film visited Birmingham and London in the run-up to the Paris

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attacks and another man, Mohamed Abrini, of Moroccan extraction, a

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Belgium, he went to France before the Paris attacks and flew back from

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Birmingham to France, coming to see presumably like-minded people in

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this country? It is a very confused situation. We found no evidence that

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he came to the UK. He may have done, he may not. We were convinced that

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Muhammad Abu Renee, one of his blue tenants did -- one of his Lieutenant

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Colonel Law did visit the UK. He was a suspect of somebody who may have

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been Syria. In the course of the interview they looked at his mobile

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phone. I was told that on his phone were several photographs, one of

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which, confirmed by the Belgians, was of a football stadium. He might

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be a football fan. He might have gone to watch a match. But we know

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what happened in Paris. As far as the network in the UK, we did note

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that Mohamed Abrini had visited the UK and I don't think he was here on

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a long weekend vocation. We know that he is still at large and that

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his brother was killed in Syria. What is your take on this?

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The first thing is the sheer horror of what happened. The footage from

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the tube attack was taken by a friend of mine in Brusselslike

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everybody else who knows that city, my first thoughts were, are my staff

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OK, and my friends? It is a terrible trauma to go through. I think we do

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need to look at the security considerations at a European level

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and at a UK level. We need to think about the indications of EU passport

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holders, EU nationals, carrying out these attacks, and of how we monitor

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their entry or exit from the country. We also need to look at how

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we can deport people that we think are dangerous. One point which the

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former head of intelligence Sir Richard Dearlove made yesterday in

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his article was that it is increasingly difficult in the EU to

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deport people when we know that they are dangerous pass EU judges say

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that they have rights as EU citizens. We will come onto these

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issues later on. Steve? Apart from Daniel's attempt to frame it in an

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argument for out of the European Union, I agree with everything he

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said. What else can you say, other than utter banality is, and

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expressing alarm at the Panorama programme which we saw last night

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got this is not some kind of primitive organisation with anarchic

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networks. It is clearly coordinated, sophisticated, trained, in a way

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that I had not realised until your exchange just now, the degree to

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which they are trained. And it is going to be very, very difficult to

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contain. If I could counter Daniel's view, it clearly needs a degree of

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coordination between different countries. We are going to come onto

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that. Let's not get that argument into everything. Not while we have

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got Peter here. There are more important issues at stake. Peter, I

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thank you for coming on today. Graduations again. Table can catch

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it on the iPlayer. Or on the panorama website. I would recommend

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that anybody who wants to know what is happening should do so. In some

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ways it is the Prime Minister's worst nightmare, that security has

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now become deeply embedded into the European debate because of what has

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happened in Brussels. It raises the question, inevitably...

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Here, the former head of MI6 Sir Richard Dearlove says a British

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exit would lead to important security gains for the UK.

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That prompted a swift rebuttal from the Defence Secretary,

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Let's talk now to the BBC's deputy political editor,

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It seems to me that this is what the Government would have liked to have

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avoided. What leading Conservative said to me, our worst nightmare is

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that there is a major terrorist incident while the referendum

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campaign is going on, and it comes caught up in the debate. That is

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exactly what has happened. Yet it is. To some extent the Prime

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Minister should share some responsibility for this. He was the

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person who began this debate about security in the European Union. In

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his speech to Chatham House last November, he specifically made the

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case for staying in the EU, because it helps our security. Is argument

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was that it helps European countries get together to put sanctions on

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Russia and negotiate with Iran. But since the attacks in Brussels, that

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debate has become more acute. Firstly, the question about the free

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movement of people within Europe and whether or not it endangers the

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countries in Europe because it is easier for terrorists to move about.

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But also, the second debate, which is about whether or not intelligence

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sharing is easier within the EU or not. There is a divide between the

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MI6 view, which is represented by Sir Richard Dearlove, which

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essentially says, intelligence sharing is bilateral, it has nothing

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to do with the European Union. Britain leads on this in its

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relationship with the United States, and so there will be no change,

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whether or not we leave or stay. The other viewpoint, which is more MI5,

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more police, more Home Office, which says, for gritty, on the ground

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exchanges of information about police operations, sharing passenger

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lists, that does help EU co-operation. That is where the

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debate is changing. If there is any sense that the electorate pick up

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on, begin to think, Europe, there is a security risk to it, then it is a

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danger for the Government, because it could get the Leave camp into a

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risk argument. What is the case for arguing, in

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terms of what we have been talking about, security from terrorism, for

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saying we are better off out? That we are safer when we control our own

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borders and can control who crosses them and who can settle here. And

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that we are safer if we can determine who can be kicked out on

:20:51.:20:54.

security grounds. We agreed when we joined the EU to open our borders to

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the rest of the European Union. It is now clear that the European Union

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has in effect opened its borders to the entire world of that was never

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the original deal. And it has security indications. As we see the

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Schengen crisis, and the euro crisis, unfolding, the choice we

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have, is, do we make those problems our problems? Because we stayed out

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of Schengen, because we kept the pound, we have options. We can stay

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away from these things and focus on the rest of the world. And Steve,

:21:29.:21:33.

what is the case for saying that our security is better if we remain?

:21:34.:21:39.

Well, as far as this is an issue at all, and I say that because if we

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were not having a referendum now, and this appalling event had not

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happened in Brussels, I doubt we would have been having this debate.

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Nobody would have stood up and said, the reaction to Brussels is that we

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pull out of the European Union. It is only because we are having this

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referendum. We would not even be debating it if it was not for that,

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because it is so peripheral. A lot of the coordination would carry on

:22:05.:22:08.

as normal whether we were in or out. Part of it is so central with the

:22:09.:22:12.

United States. However, as James Landale pointed out, a lot of the

:22:13.:22:17.

nitty-gritty of daily, unglamorous intelligence watching does involve

:22:18.:22:22.

co-operation in different countries. And even though we are out of

:22:23.:22:28.

Schengen, you mentioned this senior ices guy who got to Birmingham

:22:29.:22:32.

recently. Without that freedom in the rest of the European Union, they

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are still coming here. So if they do not ignore boundaries, we need

:22:37.:22:42.

institution that can coordinate as well. We have had judicial and

:22:43.:22:48.

intelligence co-operation globally, long before they was a European

:22:49.:22:53.

Union. We have it outside the European Union, with our closest

:22:54.:22:56.

allies in the English-speaking democracies. We have Interpol, we

:22:57.:23:01.

have intelligence showing. The point made by Sir Richard Dearlove is

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critical - frankly we have the best intelligence service in the European

:23:06.:23:08.

Union. It is a bit like the Common fisheries policy. We are

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disproportionately filling the pot from which the others are drawing. I

:23:13.:23:17.

think we should do that, of course, it is in our security to enhance the

:23:18.:23:25.

security of other EU countries. So do you not therefore accept that

:23:26.:23:28.

this argument in the context of the EU is a red herring? We have had

:23:29.:23:33.

good security, we will continue to have good security. This, oh, we

:23:34.:23:37.

should pull out of the European Union, is really peripheral. My

:23:38.:23:43.

reasoning for leaving the European Union is that it is the only bit of

:23:44.:23:47.

the world which is not experiencing economic growth. That is the bigger

:23:48.:23:51.

argument. This will undoubtedly go on. And we will be exploring some of

:23:52.:23:57.

the other arguments surrounding the EU referendum in a moment.

:23:58.:24:00.

And today it's all about the referendum to find

:24:01.:24:05.

After a lengthy campaign, prime minister John Key has

:24:06.:24:09.

So what did the people of New Zealand choose?

:24:10.:24:14.

b) the existing design with union flag?

:24:15.:24:19.

c) they have decided to share the Australian flag?

:24:20.:24:21.

Or d) a picture of their national bird, the kiwi?

:24:22.:24:25.

And Steve and Daniel will give us the answer a little bit later on.

:24:26.:24:35.

A different referendum at least to talk about!

:24:36.:24:38.

Speaking of questions, all this week we've been asking

:24:39.:24:41.

viewers to send in questions about the EU referendum.

:24:42.:24:43.

Postman Pat has had a busy time, and the office munchkins have been

:24:44.:24:46.

And to answer them, we're joined by Lucy Thomas from

:24:47.:24:50.

She is campaigning to remain, and Daniel Hannan is still here -

:24:51.:24:54.

he's just written a book called Why Vote Leave.

:24:55.:25:03.

Out today, I understand. Let's go through the questions. We have

:25:04.:25:10.

picked a selection. The first one, from British pensioners in Spain.

:25:11.:25:13.

What could happen to our pensions if we left the EU? Batches from Ann and

:25:14.:25:20.

Norman Harrison in Costa Blanca. Well, currently there is mutual

:25:21.:25:23.

recognition of pensions and we simply do not know what would happen

:25:24.:25:27.

if we were to leave. We do not know what the incentive would be for

:25:28.:25:31.

Spain to continue to do that. So I think that would be a huge question

:25:32.:25:34.

for our pensioners in Spain. The other issue facing them is access to

:25:35.:25:40.

health care. At the moment we have a European health insurance card,

:25:41.:25:43.

which allows people living in Spain from Britain to access health care

:25:44.:25:47.

for free. Again, there is no way that that would continue, were we to

:25:48.:25:52.

leave. So I think there are a lot of uncertainties here. And no real

:25:53.:25:57.

reason why a they would continue to be the case, were we to leave. We

:25:58.:26:01.

are talking about 1.5 million Brits living in Spain, I believe. Quite a

:26:02.:26:07.

few of them pensioners. So, uncertainty and risk in terms of

:26:08.:26:12.

their future... On pensions there is absolutely no prospect of any

:26:13.:26:16.

change. By jumping on to health care, Lucie pretty much conceded

:26:17.:26:19.

that. As it is up to the UK Government. Just because you are in

:26:20.:26:25.

Spain or wherever, the UK Government pays and operates your pensions. We

:26:26.:26:29.

have mutual deals with some countries in the EU and some

:26:30.:26:34.

countries outside the EU. And that would continue? Until one side or

:26:35.:26:41.

the other wants to change it. But Lucy Thomas brought up health care.

:26:42.:26:44.

We are paying through our health care system hugely more to EU

:26:45.:26:48.

nationals in the UK then we are receiving via EU nationals in the

:26:49.:26:51.

rest of the EU. There is an immense in balance and I think it would be

:26:52.:26:55.

in the interest of all of those other countries to keep those

:26:56.:26:59.

reciprocal deals going. On pensions, we have to look at what the value of

:27:00.:27:03.

the pension would end up being. Already we have seen the value of

:27:04.:27:08.

sterling going down. Front page of the Financial Times today looking at

:27:09.:27:11.

the potential indications. If our economy were hit by leaving, which I

:27:12.:27:17.

believe it would be... Of course, a lot of those pensioners in Spain

:27:18.:27:22.

were there before Spain joined in 1986, so they know perfectly well...

:27:23.:27:27.

Moving onto the next question, how much does the UK pay into the EU and

:27:28.:27:32.

how much do we receive in subsidies. That is from Adrian Hansell in

:27:33.:27:40.

Exeter. Be honest and transparent. Gross figure, about 19 billion, of

:27:41.:27:45.

which some 9 billion is spent in the UK or handed back. So the net figure

:27:46.:27:50.

is about half. Shouldn't you use the net figure? No, because we do not

:27:51.:27:54.

use the net figure anywhere else. Ask any of your readers what they

:27:55.:27:59.

pay in council tax, and see if they deduct the notional value of the pin

:28:00.:28:02.

collecting. What we pay is what we handover. We do not hand over 19

:28:03.:28:08.

billion, we take the rebate of first. It is not actually a rebate,

:28:09.:28:15.

it is an arrangement. Explain that to the elector. No, we do not send

:28:16.:28:19.

it in the first place. That figure comes from the Office for National

:28:20.:28:23.

Statistics. Rather than twiddling, we have just given the gross and net

:28:24.:28:28.

figure coming from them. Talk about being fair and honest, how much do

:28:29.:28:32.

we actually pay to the EU? If you look between 2010 and 2014, and then

:28:33.:28:40.

15-16, I don't know where you got 19 from, it never even got to that. So

:28:41.:28:44.

absolutely you have to take account of the rebate. , which is 5 billion.

:28:45.:28:52.

So not as much as Daniel was saying. We did all of this on The Sunday

:28:53.:28:57.

Politics. The gross figure, if I can put it that way, for 2014-15, was

:28:58.:29:06.

18.3 billion. And we paid 13 billion because 5 billion of the rebate

:29:07.:29:11.

comes off. It is still enough to give a huge... I just want to hear

:29:12.:29:18.

what your campaign is actually saying, when people say, how much do

:29:19.:29:23.

we pay to the EU? Per household, it is around 206 ?2 per household per

:29:24.:29:28.

year, which breaks down to about 30p per person per day. That is taking

:29:29.:29:33.

into account yes, that rebate and some of the things we get back, for

:29:34.:29:40.

example, investment in our poorer regions. ?20 billion for our farmers

:29:41.:29:43.

are to 2020. Wouldn't we do that anyway? That is an interesting

:29:44.:29:48.

question for Dann, because I'm not sure that everybody on his side of

:29:49.:29:53.

the argument would want to... By your logic, basic income tax is

:29:54.:29:58.

zero, because we get it all back inroads and schools and hospitals.

:29:59.:30:02.

That is what happens when you start treating it like this. Moving onto

:30:03.:30:07.

the next question. What assurances would there be that working people

:30:08.:30:11.

would enjoy the same levels of rights, minimum wager, paid holiday,

:30:12.:30:17.

maternity and paternity pay, Lucy Thomas? In short it depends on what

:30:18.:30:23.

kind of arrangement we get. But it really does mean that these things

:30:24.:30:29.

would be at risk were we to leave. Why would those rights change? Even

:30:30.:30:35.

if any government would want to introduce that. On the other side of

:30:36.:30:40.

the Adi Matt, they spend their whole time complaining about employment

:30:41.:30:44.

rights for people, whether that be maternity rights,

:30:45.:30:47.

anti-discrimination rules - these are things which are guaranteed by

:30:48.:30:52.

EU law. And a future UK Government could please side, were they to wish

:30:53.:30:56.

to do so, to scrap them. But we would have elected that government.

:30:57.:31:00.

Could you imagine any major political party in this country and

:31:01.:31:06.

paining to take away paid holiday? Or wanting to reduce it, because the

:31:07.:31:11.

UK Government, they gold-plated it and added in bank holidays. And that

:31:12.:31:16.

is actually the piece of EU revelation which SMEs in numerous

:31:17.:31:21.

surveys have said is the most costly to them.

:31:22.:31:27.

According to the IFF is, all the savings in the last Parliament saved

:31:28.:31:38.

?35 billion. During that period, the money given to the EU could have

:31:39.:31:43.

wiped out all austerities, even given Lucy's number. We legislated

:31:44.:31:49.

for paid holiday in this country when Chamberlain was Chancellor in

:31:50.:31:56.

1938. We have 90% pay for mothers during maternity leave, which is

:31:57.:32:00.

much higher than the EU. The idea that any of this would be at risk is

:32:01.:32:05.

outrageous scare mongering. Our final question from Alan Carlyle.

:32:06.:32:12.

Will the UK remain 100% sovereignty if we stay in? What makes the EU

:32:13.:32:18.

different from every international body in the world, is that it

:32:19.:32:23.

legislate, creates a new legal order that has precedence over the laws of

:32:24.:32:28.

the member states. We do not have sovereignty as long as we are in the

:32:29.:32:33.

EU. That has been the argument all along. It is what makes the EU

:32:34.:32:37.

different from a co-operative international body which everybody

:32:38.:32:43.

would support. This is quite an emotive issue. I would say that we

:32:44.:32:50.

can decide to leave if we want to, we are sovereign. The real question

:32:51.:32:57.

is whether we control the laws that affect us. It would be interesting

:32:58.:33:01.

to hear what kind of model Dan would want from outside, would you liked

:33:02.:33:08.

to be like Norway and Switzerland who accept the majority of laws from

:33:09.:33:14.

the EU or do they want to accept a trade deal like with Canada which is

:33:15.:33:18.

overseen by an international court and the single market rules we would

:33:19.:33:22.

still have to comply with in order to export are still controlled by

:33:23.:33:26.

the European Court of Justice. Leaving doesn't give you more

:33:27.:33:31.

sovereignty, it gives you less. Coming to Steve Richards, the rows

:33:32.:33:36.

between two other roses. Is it illuminating for the public

:33:37.:33:42.

listening to this? Do you want me to be honest? No. I think the world of

:33:43.:33:50.

figures highlights, I am a sceptic about referendums in general, I

:33:51.:33:55.

would prefer them not to be held. One of the problems with them is

:33:56.:33:58.

that you get a world of figures following everything. I'm not sure

:33:59.:34:04.

now where the figure lies in terms of our contribution and all the rest

:34:05.:34:10.

of it. I don't think that is the way that the argument will be swayed. It

:34:11.:34:14.

will be framing an argument around whether we are better working with

:34:15.:34:20.

others and that democratic institutions or whether we would

:34:21.:34:26.

regain control of our own powers and be liberated. That is the framing of

:34:27.:34:32.

the debate and the economy. I should stress that you are for Remain in

:34:33.:34:40.

this. Oh yes. People do go with the hunches in this. We look across the

:34:41.:34:48.

Channel and there isn't a sense that this is a successful project that we

:34:49.:34:51.

need to be part. There is a world out there where we have friends,

:34:52.:34:55.

links and language and that is where should be re-oriented.

:34:56.:34:59.

Yesterday, the party confirmed it had suspended its former welfare

:35:00.:35:07.

spokeswoman Suzanne Evans for alleged "disloyalty"

:35:08.:35:09.

Ms Evans, who was on Ukip's list for the London Assembly elections

:35:10.:35:17.

in May, went to the High Court at lunchtime in an attempt

:35:18.:35:20.

to overturn the suspension, but lost.

:35:21.:35:22.

She will now be unable to represent her party.

:35:23.:35:28.

Well we did ask Suzanne for an interview, but she declined.

:35:29.:35:38.

Let's listen to her though speaking on the programme last June.

:35:39.:35:42.

I think Nigel himself has not called to leave the Out campaign.

:35:43.:35:46.

I think it might be that a figure to lead

:35:47.:35:53.

the Out campaign comes from outside politics.

:35:54.:35:54.

Would you advise him not to lead the Out campaign?

:35:55.:35:57.

I would advise him to take a very significant part in it.

:35:58.:36:00.

I understand that but as you know, that wasn't

:36:01.:36:02.

Would you advise him for the greater good of the cause,

:36:03.:36:07.

from your point of view, that he shouldn't lead

:36:08.:36:09.

I think Nigel is a very divisive character, in terms of the way

:36:10.:36:13.

But the way he is perceived as is having strong views

:36:14.:36:18.

Joining me now is Chris Woods, a Ukip councillor in Hampshire.

:36:19.:36:30.

Also joining me is the Ukip MEP Diane James. As Suzanne Evans been

:36:31.:36:39.

suspended for criticising another party candidate, once -- who once

:36:40.:36:51.

compared, sexual is to Nazis? She has been criticised -- suspended for

:36:52.:37:03.

a number of reasons. I'm trying to get out why she has been suspended

:37:04.:37:09.

is one of the reasons is that she attacked this particular candidate?

:37:10.:37:13.

You are using the word attacked. She made comments. Criticisms? That is

:37:14.:37:24.

better. She criticised an individual. That individual made

:37:25.:37:29.

statements that reflected his conscience. She then I understand

:37:30.:37:36.

attempted to interfere in terms of his placing on the assembly

:37:37.:37:40.

candidates list and that was a step too far. This candidate is called

:37:41.:37:47.

Alan Craig, he was a candidate for the London assembly elections. He

:37:48.:37:52.

says that he can defend himself and there is evidence... What evidence

:37:53.:37:57.

does he bring to substantiate his claim that he has said that society

:37:58.:38:04.

is being "Crushed under the pink jackboot". You are focusing too much

:38:05.:38:13.

on one incident. I don't know the detail on that. He has already

:38:14.:38:20.

compared, sexual is to Nazis and he now says that we as a society are

:38:21.:38:26.

being "Crushed under the pink jackboot". How would you defend

:38:27.:38:32.

that? In the past, where individuals within Ukip have been accused of

:38:33.:38:36.

making homophobic comments which have brought the party into

:38:37.:38:41.

disrepute those individuals have been dealt with. We have not

:38:42.:38:45.

resorted to a candidate on the London assembly deciding to take

:38:46.:38:49.

matters into her own hands, handling it in a way that did not reflect our

:38:50.:38:54.

Constitution and rules which led to a panel hearing which led to her

:38:55.:39:01.

suspension. Nobody should and can awkward take matters into their own

:39:02.:39:12.

hands. -- can awkward. -- can or could. Why would you have a

:39:13.:39:20.

candidate like that? That candidate would have been dealt with. Suzanne

:39:21.:39:27.

Evans has resolved to suspend her member ship of the party for six

:39:28.:39:37.

months. I don't think there is anything wrong about raising

:39:38.:39:41.

concerns about a candidate who would say such things as you have quoted.

:39:42.:39:47.

I would also have concerns. To suspend somebody for six months is

:39:48.:39:51.

wholly wrong. This was just one example amongst at least four. To

:39:52.:39:57.

highlight just one is starting to mislead will stop it is in the

:39:58.:40:07.

public domain. Give me a quick one. Our second-place candidate David

:40:08.:40:12.

Curtin, effectively, there was an instance of intimidation to get him

:40:13.:40:18.

to stand down. Suzanne Evans intimidated him? Look at the detail

:40:19.:40:26.

to establish whether. They didn't get a vote in London anyway and we

:40:27.:40:30.

should be told by somebody is suspended like this when she is one

:40:31.:40:34.

of our greatest assets. The public would like to see her reinstated.

:40:35.:40:40.

Patrick O'Flynn created a petition yesterday and 1600 people have

:40:41.:40:43.

signed it. Would you get suspended for signing it? I would hope that

:40:44.:40:52.

nobody would go against a High Court judgment with a petition. My

:40:53.:40:57.

understanding is that the petition is to raise money for an appeal

:40:58.:41:01.

which she could have done before the High Court issue was raised. Isn't

:41:02.:41:08.

the truth of it that she has done two things that are anathema to

:41:09.:41:14.

Nigel Farage. She described him as divisive and she has joined the Vote

:41:15.:41:22.

Leave part of the campaign which Nigel Farage things is tantamount to

:41:23.:41:27.

treason? The criticism of Nigel was over a year ago. If Nigel had wanted

:41:28.:41:34.

to, I can tell you that this isn't an issue, just supposing he had been

:41:35.:41:37.

tempted, he could have demoted her at that stage. This is so

:41:38.:41:54.

conjugated. -- complicated. They're with us. We have a process just like

:41:55.:41:59.

any party. She has breached Constitution rules. The very purpose

:42:00.:42:08.

of Ukip was to get a referendum to take is out. We have a referendum

:42:09.:42:15.

but instead of view fighting the referendum, you are like rats in a

:42:16.:42:24.

sack fighting each other. We agree with an awful lot. We want to leave

:42:25.:42:33.

the European Union. We need to when the referendum and work together to

:42:34.:42:38.

do that. Unless Suzanne had gone to the press, nobody would have known

:42:39.:42:42.

about it. I would actually say that this is revenge, hell hath no fury

:42:43.:42:52.

like a woman scorned. How is she? She is lovely. She is a huge asset

:42:53.:42:58.

to the party. Last night she as to come on and defender -- asked me. I

:42:59.:43:07.

said no problem. Now yesterday, junior

:43:08.:43:09.

doctors in England decided to escalate their strike action over

:43:10.:43:12.

the imposition of new contracts. They announced they would not

:43:13.:43:15.

provide emergency care during walkouts on the 26th

:43:16.:43:17.

and 27th of April. The Government described

:43:18.:43:20.

the escalation as "desperate The new contract will increase

:43:21.:43:22.

the basic pay of doctors But it will extend their core

:43:23.:43:29.

working hours, thereby reducing extra payments for working

:43:30.:43:39.

"unsociable hours". Automatic pay increases linked

:43:40.:43:41.

to time served will also be scrapped and replaced with a system

:43:42.:43:43.

based on successful The Government says that no junior

:43:44.:43:45.

doctor working within the current But that around 1% of junior doctors

:43:46.:43:51.

who currently work lots of extra However, junior doctors are unhappy

:43:52.:43:59.

that under the new contract, they will be expected to work more

:44:00.:44:06.

weekends and that their salaries After talks broke down in February,

:44:07.:44:09.

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt decided to impose the contract from August

:44:10.:44:16.

2016 without further negotiation. The BMA has organised a series

:44:17.:44:21.

of strikes over the contract, but this will be the first time that

:44:22.:44:25.

doctors have refused to provide emergency care -

:44:26.:44:30.

they say they have been left with "no choice" by the Government's

:44:31.:44:34.

refusal to come back And with us now is Dagan Lonsdale -

:44:35.:44:36.

a junior doctor working So you are desperate and

:44:37.:44:53.

irresponsible - that is how the Government describes you? I am very

:44:54.:44:57.

sad that we have got to this stage. Part of the problem has been the

:44:58.:45:00.

language which has been used by government. Junior doctors and

:45:01.:45:04.

doctors as a whole would like nothing more than to work with the

:45:05.:45:07.

Government to produce this seven-day NHS. But we cannot do it without a

:45:08.:45:11.

full and frank discussion about how it is going to be funded, about the

:45:12.:45:15.

risks of stretching staff from five days to seven and without a

:45:16.:45:20.

discussion of the effect on patients. Junior doctors have done

:45:21.:45:23.

everything in their power to explain to government that they are

:45:24.:45:26.

concerned about how unsafe these changes are. 10,000 others marched

:45:27.:45:31.

on the streets of London. 98% voted in favour of industrial action.

:45:32.:45:34.

Throughout that period the Government described us as

:45:35.:45:38.

militants, as radicals, and used provocative and emotive language to

:45:39.:45:42.

describe people who want to care for patients, who want the NHS to

:45:43.:45:46.

succeed as a world-class health service. But you just said you and

:45:47.:45:50.

your colleagues are worried about an NHS which will leave residents

:45:51.:45:54.

unsafe. Is it justified to withdraw emergency care and leave those same

:45:55.:46:00.

patients unsafe? Let's be clear about what the action is. On the

:46:01.:46:04.

days of the strikes, for nine hours, the people in the hospital providing

:46:05.:46:08.

emergency care will be the most experienced, highest trained doctors

:46:09.:46:12.

that the NHS has, which is consultants. It is the first full

:46:13.:46:16.

walk-out in the history of the NHS. Many viewers will say, this is a

:46:17.:46:21.

step too far. That you are taking action which will endanger the lives

:46:22.:46:24.

of people, whatever and whoever is in the sidelines waiting to step in

:46:25.:46:29.

of I understand why people will be concerned. I would reiterate, for in

:46:30.:46:35.

my hospital for example there are 300-plus consultants, the highest

:46:36.:46:39.

trained people in the NHS. They are more than capable of providing

:46:40.:46:43.

emergency cover. It will have a knock-on effect on routine

:46:44.:46:46.

operations and outpatient clinics, and for that disruption I am sorry.

:46:47.:46:50.

But David Cameron simply needs to step up and show leadership in an

:46:51.:46:55.

NHS which has record deficits, record levels of A waiting times

:46:56.:46:57.

and doctors leaving the profession. Needs to engage with the

:46:58.:47:02.

professionals on the front line. If this is the situation the Government

:47:03.:47:05.

finds itself in, with junior doctors walking out, emergency care to be

:47:06.:47:10.

withdrawn, and Jeremy Hunt still saying he is going to impose that

:47:11.:47:15.

contract, saying that the junior doctors are holding the country to

:47:16.:47:19.

ransom, is that responsible of a government minister? No government

:47:20.:47:23.

minister will ever win the popularity stakes. Jeremy must know

:47:24.:47:28.

who is going to win in terms of PR. So why is he doing this? The answer

:47:29.:47:34.

is, because it is his job as Health Secretary. Somebody has to be

:47:35.:47:39.

standing up for the consumer. It is less about the popularity stakes, I

:47:40.:47:43.

think what the public want is a solution. But the solution has to

:47:44.:47:48.

involve modernisation, and has to involve a seven-day service. I do

:47:49.:47:51.

not think the two sides are impossibly far apart, I think it is

:47:52.:47:56.

regrettable that they are taking this extraordinary step of a full

:47:57.:48:00.

right. Yes, we need a solution but we know from the Public Accounts

:48:01.:48:03.

Committee that the seven-day NHS is on costed, as no risk assessment and

:48:04.:48:07.

no workforce planning. We need to work towards it together. A solution

:48:08.:48:12.

is what people would like. We have heard that there has not been a

:48:13.:48:16.

willingness to negotiate. But actually the BMA has not been

:48:17.:48:19.

willing to negotiate, either. They never want to come on and speak to

:48:20.:48:23.

us about their position and they refuse to negotiate over Saturday

:48:24.:48:26.

pay. Are they leading junior doctors down a blind alley? Partly, in the

:48:27.:48:31.

sense that I am sure the Government is right to want seven-day

:48:32.:48:35.

provision. And you say you want seven-day provision as well. The

:48:36.:48:40.

issue is partly to do with resources. I thought it was very

:48:41.:48:46.

interesting in David Laws' book last week, he revealed that Simon

:48:47.:48:50.

Stevens, who runs NHS England, wanted George Osborne to commit to

:48:51.:48:53.

?16 billion of additional NHS spending. Andrew Lansley disputed

:48:54.:48:59.

that. From the conversations I have had with people at NHS England, it

:49:00.:49:02.

rings true, that they think that is the kind of money required. Well

:49:03.:49:06.

Jeremy Hunt is white to push for this, most of us now accept that

:49:07.:49:10.

weekends, you work, and the rest of it. I know you say you do already.

:49:11.:49:15.

But there is a big friends, anyone who has been to hospital at

:49:16.:49:18.

weekends, you must accept. But the Government has moved, offering

:49:19.:49:23.

higher pay and compensation. Obviously, it is partly an issue of

:49:24.:49:28.

resources, trying to spread execs existing staff around seven days.

:49:29.:49:33.

There are bound to be resources issues. And so they have got to find

:49:34.:49:38.

more money for this service. Proportionately less money is going

:49:39.:49:43.

into it than Germany, France, Italy. But they are right to push the

:49:44.:49:48.

seven-day provision. It is obvious, people need operations and all the

:49:49.:49:51.

rest of it at the weekend. When we think back to the miners' strike,

:49:52.:49:56.

and how long it went on for, and how desperate it became, is this the

:49:57.:50:02.

same? Not on that scale. That was totemic in capital letters. With

:50:03.:50:08.

every respect to your cause, it is not on anywhere near that scale.

:50:09.:50:13.

David Cameron when he had his first conversation with Jeremy Hunt as

:50:14.:50:15.

Health Secretary, said, get health of the news, Beacon silly tree. He

:50:16.:50:21.

has not done that. He did up until about the election. --

:50:22.:50:26.

all-conciliatory. I don't think anyone could claim that is the case

:50:27.:50:33.

now. If the Saturday pay issue was resolved, would you go back to work?

:50:34.:50:37.

I don't think this is about pay at all. But there have been doctors who

:50:38.:50:42.

have come on and said it was about Saturday pay and the hours and the

:50:43.:50:46.

compensation you would get for working Saturdays. That's why it is

:50:47.:50:49.

this feeling that it is wider than just the issue of pay and

:50:50.:50:54.

conditions? I understand that is the narrative that the Government want

:50:55.:50:57.

you to believe. Junior doctors have had a ten-15% real terms pay cut in

:50:58.:51:03.

the last few years, and had our pensions slashed twice. This is

:51:04.:51:06.

about the safety of our working conditions. It is really important

:51:07.:51:10.

that we have a contract which appropriately recognises the work

:51:11.:51:14.

that people do in the acute services in anti-social hours. Not a lot of

:51:15.:51:19.

people understand that this contract covers 56 specialties, from acute

:51:20.:51:23.

medicine down to dermatology. If you wrongly set out the contract, then

:51:24.:51:27.

you will have an exacerbation of the workforce crisis which we already

:51:28.:51:30.

have, with one in three GPs due to in the next five years, one in three

:51:31.:51:35.

training places in the north of the country empty, and doctors missing

:51:36.:51:36.

from rotors up and down the country. Now are you part of the core group,

:51:37.:51:40.

or maybe core group plus? Neither, apparently,

:51:41.:51:45.

does Jeremy Corbyn. But here's our Giles to explain

:51:46.:51:53.

the Labour MP loyalty list that PMQs should have been

:51:54.:51:56.

a joy for Labour. A cabinet minister resigned

:51:57.:52:06.

amid severe criticism of a government policy,

:52:07.:52:12.

a budget U-turn, EU referendum divisions,

:52:13.:52:14.

more big targets for an opposition Jeremy Corbyn asked, and rightly so,

:52:15.:52:17.

but was hamstrung by a spreadsheet. We've got core support,

:52:18.:52:27.

I think you can include me in that We've got core plus -

:52:28.:52:31.

the Chief Whip is being a bit quiet Mr Speaker, I thought

:52:32.:52:40.

I had problems! He does - but this list

:52:41.:52:45.

of Labour MP loyalty, we think written some months ago,

:52:46.:52:47.

was apparently not the work of Mr Corbyn and his team -

:52:48.:52:51.

its appearance now has his

:52:52.:52:54.

supporters are suspicious of why it has just

:52:55.:52:57.

appeared, but its effect David Cameron should have been

:52:58.:52:59.

crying over his lunch today. We've had a disastrous week

:53:00.:53:09.

for the Conservatives. We've seen

:53:10.:53:11.

George Osborne's political career effectively ended and we've seen

:53:12.:53:14.

a civil war erupt within somehow, this list has

:53:15.:53:16.

appeared and has taken the focus completely off

:53:17.:53:19.

the Conservatives again and let David Cameron completely

:53:20.:53:21.

off the hook. That really isn't acceptable

:53:22.:53:23.

and shouldn't have happened. The hostile, you shout,

:53:24.:53:25.

hostile shout, that's right. Neutral, but not hostile,

:53:26.:53:32.

you have to be quiet. It shouldn't have existed

:53:33.:53:35.

in the first place. The fact that it was

:53:36.:53:52.

then, by all accounts left in a bar for people to find,

:53:53.:53:54.

I think, is absolutely Every single Labour MP in the Palace

:53:55.:53:57.

of Westminster today has been Everybody is saying,

:53:58.:54:01.

I'm on a different place in that list to where people

:54:02.:54:05.

think I am on the list. And I'm afraid it really

:54:06.:54:07.

does speak to the heart of the professional effort

:54:08.:54:10.

which we are seeing now Now, we don't know

:54:11.:54:12.

who made this list. We also don't know whether

:54:13.:54:17.

it was made to order. It could have been done

:54:18.:54:22.

of somebody's own bat. But he is one thing we should

:54:23.:54:24.

probably all agree on. If you're going to

:54:25.:54:27.

make a list of names of MPs who are hostile

:54:28.:54:32.

to the leadership, probably don't, even though it wasn't

:54:33.:54:34.

this one, leave Good idea never to leave anything in

:54:35.:54:50.

the pub, I think! Do you know who drew up the list, Steve?

:54:51.:54:55.

Jeremy Corbyn's office says that he and his office had nothing to do

:54:56.:55:03.

with it. Do you think that is true? If I were Jeremy Corbyn, I would

:55:04.:55:06.

want it and I would find it very useful. Rather than be

:55:07.:55:11.

embarrassed... It is a disaster that it turned up, but I think it is a

:55:12.:55:15.

sign of new professionalism that they are finding out what the state

:55:16.:55:18.

of their Parliamentary party really is. If you were leader of this

:55:19.:55:28.

Parliamentary party, which is inconstant insurrection and fuming

:55:29.:55:34.

mood against you, you would want to know every... I am told quite a lot

:55:35.:55:38.

of it is inaccurate. It is out of date, I think. Some of those who are

:55:39.:55:43.

there as core loyalists are fuming because they have been scheming

:55:44.:55:47.

against him! One MP said he is not on any of the lists and he says he

:55:48.:55:52.

does not know if this means a first-class ticket to Havana or the

:55:53.:55:56.

train to the Gulag. Yes, very ominous not to be there at all! Much

:55:57.:56:02.

safer to be in the really hostile list or whatever! Look at some of

:56:03.:56:07.

the names - former shadow cabinet ministers, Caroline Flint, hostile,

:56:08.:56:11.

Chris Leslie, hostile. Chuka Umunna, hostile. I mean, in a sense it is

:56:12.:56:20.

accurate, isn't it? I would say that is pretty accurate. I don't think

:56:21.:56:23.

they would deny it. This is the longer version of what we have just

:56:24.:56:27.

had with Ukip. I just want to put on the record, Susanne Evans is a great

:56:28.:56:39.

asset to the Leave campaign. She is optimistic and cheerful. Can I say

:56:40.:56:44.

one thing about Labour? I need to bring Steve back in. He is the

:56:45.:56:47.

Labour expert here. I don't know about that. There is a darker side

:56:48.:56:52.

to some of this. We had a man recently on the programme, who had

:56:53.:56:57.

briefly rejoined Labour from the far left, who talked about the Jewish

:56:58.:57:05.

question, Mr Downing. The Jewish question, it was like a real

:57:06.:57:09.

conspiracy stuff. We have somebody called Marlene Ellis, a Labour Party

:57:10.:57:15.

member, momentum activist, who has said that Chuka Umunna is, quote,

:57:16.:57:20.

not politically black. Extraordinary. Who is this woman?

:57:21.:57:27.

Marlene Eller, a party member and a momentum activist. Not politically

:57:28.:57:33.

black. What this whole context has done, by the way, I find it much

:57:34.:57:36.

more interesting looking at the governing party that this stuff,

:57:37.:57:39.

because you just go around in circles. What this whole thing has

:57:40.:57:44.

done is, you know, brought back to the four... I saw your interview

:57:45.:57:48.

with that guy who has now been expelled. Again. And I read some of

:57:49.:57:53.

the stuff. Part of the problem is that they cannot write, actually.

:57:54.:57:58.

You have to wade your way through it. 15 seconds. I think this is an

:57:59.:58:04.

absolute tragedy. We need a serious opposition. We have had a decent

:58:05.:58:09.

radical tradition in this country. For us to be without an opposition

:58:10.:58:13.

now is betraying the people. Moral ground! High

:58:14.:58:17.

There's High just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:18.:58:20.

The question was about the referendum to find a new flag

:58:21.:58:23.

c) they will share the Australian flag?

:58:24.:58:30.

So, Steve and Dan, what's the correct answer?

:58:31.:58:35.

I hope they have gone for the Kiwi. No, they have stayed with the

:58:36.:58:40.

existing design! And there it is, they kept with a version of ours.

:58:41.:58:45.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:46.:58:49.

I am on BBC One tonight with Michael Portillo,

:58:50.:58:53.

Chuka Umunna, Isabel Hardman, Maajid Nawaz, Alfred "Pee Wee" Ellis

:58:54.:58:55.

and Fred Wesley, joining me on This Week from 11.45.

:58:56.:59:00.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

They are joined by journalist Steve Richards to discuss the latest developments following the Brussels terror attacks, whether EU membership makes us safer, the decision by junior doctors to extend strike action, and the list of Labour MPs 'hostile' to Jeremy Corbyn.


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