15/04/2016 Daily Politics


15/04/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by the journalist Dan Hodges to discuss the start of the official EU referendum campaign period. Plus a look at all the latest news from Europe.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

The starting gun is fired as the official campaign period

:00:40.:00:45.

but is it a level playing field for Leave and Remain?

:00:46.:00:54.

They may have more money but have they also got more love?

:00:55.:00:56.

Can our EU neighbours persuade Britons to stay with a hug?

:00:57.:01:02.

The Panama Papers have laid bare the secretive world of tax havens,

:01:03.:01:05.

can an EU deal on tax transparency crack down on tax evasion?

:01:06.:01:13.

And, a Conservative MP refers to a female journalist as "totty",

:01:14.:01:18.

was the journalist right to complain about the MP's language?

:01:19.:01:30.

All that in the next hour and with us for the first half hour

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today Mail on Sunday Columnist, Dan Hodges.

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The UK's multi-billion pound contribution to the EU

:01:39.:01:51.

would better spent on the NHS to "give it the funding it needs",

:01:52.:01:54.

so says Michael Gove as he fires the latest salvo from

:01:55.:01:57.

Meanwhile Remain campaigners are preparing to deploy their big

:01:58.:02:00.

Barack Obama will say that the UK would be better off as a member

:02:01.:02:05.

of the European Union when he visits the Britain next week.

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Today marks the beginning of the official European Union

:02:08.:02:10.

Ending on June 23 when the UK will vote to decide

:02:11.:02:15.

Vote Leave and Britain Stronger in Europe have been designated

:02:16.:02:18.

as the lead campaigns for the respective

:02:19.:02:20.

will be both allowed to spend up to ?7 million,

:02:21.:02:27.

But Leave campaigners say it's not a level playing field

:02:28.:02:42.

as the government has already spent ?9 million on a leaflet

:02:43.:02:45.

to be delivered to 27 million homes across the UK.

:02:46.:02:47.

However this morning former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling

:02:48.:02:50.

of attacking the player not the ball.

:02:51.:03:03.

Too often, they play the man and not the ball, they cannot compete on the

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substance of the message so they attack the messenger, that is what

:03:10.:03:12.

happened in Scotland, it did not work for the Nationalists then and

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it will not work now. Alistair Darling Randa remain in the United

:03:19.:03:28.

Kingdom campaign. -- -- Alistair Darling ran the remain in the

:03:29.:03:29.

knighted kingdom campaign. Joining us now is Nigel Farage,

:03:30.:03:32.

fresh from posting his government's leaflet on the EU back

:03:33.:03:35.

through the Prime I'm pretty outraged that they are

:03:36.:03:40.

telling us what to think, it has been said that it is outside of the

:03:41.:03:43.

spirit in which the referendum should be conducted. Does it offend

:03:44.:03:47.

the British sense of fair play that in this one leaflet, the remain side

:03:48.:03:51.

has spent more money than the whole of the league side will spend

:03:52.:03:57.

between now and June 23? If you look at it on that level, the British

:03:58.:04:01.

people will not be writing in the streets over a ?9 million leave

:04:02.:04:07.

leaflet. Will it offend the sense of fair play? People are not looking at

:04:08.:04:15.

the issue on that level that closely, I think Alistair Darling

:04:16.:04:19.

has a point, the out campaign have today been focusing very much on the

:04:20.:04:23.

process elements of the debate, the leaflet, the stuff about whether out

:04:24.:04:28.

ministers would have the same access to information. Wouldn't it be fair

:04:29.:04:34.

to give his lot, his side, a free leaflet, as well? That would even it

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up, and I would suggest, the British media may not read either of them!

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But it would at least be, yes, that is fair, this side has had ?9

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million of free leaflet. Talking about neutrality, the government is

:04:53.:04:56.

not neutral, the government has a clear view, and it is right, and it

:04:57.:04:59.

would be rather odd if the government was in a position with

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the debate going on and could not express itself. The British

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government is doing that every day, on television and radio and in the

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newspapers every single day, the argument is that at the end of this

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campaign, believes side will have had one leaflet to each household,

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and the remain side will have at two, that is not fair play. -- the

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Leave side. The IMF has come out to warn about economic consequences of

:05:29.:05:33.

leaving, Barack Obama is flying in, to do the same. The CBI, these are

:05:34.:05:40.

pretty impressive names lined up against you. It helps for me, I'm

:05:41.:05:47.

pushing this as people against politicians, the more that the

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establishment up together, the better. This is about ordinary folk

:05:52.:05:54.

making up their minds. Look at the level of threat we have had already,

:05:55.:05:59.

who else can they produce, virtually everybody in the world of

:06:00.:06:01.

international politics has come out to declare that they are for the

:06:02.:06:05.

status quo, does not worry me at all. Is there a danger for Remain in

:06:06.:06:12.

this, from the United States, the success of Donald Trump, and Bernard

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Sanders, in the Democratic primaries, there is an

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antiestablishment move around, you can see that in this country as

:06:21.:06:25.

well. The remain side becomes the establishment side, and that is what

:06:26.:06:32.

people vote against. -- Remain. That is the narrative but looking at the

:06:33.:06:36.

history of referendums, general elections, I worked on the no to A/V

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campaign, back in 2011, for the yes -- the yes to A/V campaign, they try

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to harness this antiestablishment mood, looking at the SNP, they were

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supposedly harnessing that, the general election, Ed Miliband were

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supposedly harnessing an antiestablishment mood, Nigel

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himself was supposedly harnessing an antiestablishment mood. Most British

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people would regard Ed Miliband and David Cameron as part of the

:07:07.:07:10.

establishment but here, a choice between the mainstream forces, and

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an alternative. When people, with respect, when people see Nigel,

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Nigel Lawson, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, making the campaign from

:07:22.:07:25.

the other side, I think they do not see those people as outsiders. Do we

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have any friends and lies on your side? Ordinary decent people who

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want their country back and want to be governing, and... I mean from

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abroad. Is there anybody? In private, when you speak with

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ministers from around the Commonwealth, they all say that

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Britain turning its back on its friends 40 years ago was a wicked

:07:52.:07:54.

thing to have done, and what we should be doing is opening ourselves

:07:55.:07:58.

up, indeed, one of the Commonwealth conferences, if you years ago,

:07:59.:08:01.

debated a Commonwealth free trade area. There are people who in

:08:02.:08:06.

private would say, if Britain leads, our relationship can improve, but in

:08:07.:08:10.

public, part of the international community. New Zealand and Australia

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were miffed when we joined, because of what happened with their

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agricultural produce, they are all saying that we should stay, even

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Tony Abbott... Former right-wing Prime Minister of Australia, who may

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be thought to be in some way seen as the Nigel Farage of Australia. He

:08:28.:08:33.

says we should stay. As I said earlier, it is the international

:08:34.:08:36.

establishment, and all of those organisations, clubbing together, at

:08:37.:08:39.

the end of the day I don't think it makes any difference. Simple

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proposition in this referendum, A/V was not, I was on the other side, my

:08:45.:08:48.

problem was, I could not explain the people what it was. In a sentence. I

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going to try it now(!) LAUGHTER It is too difficult, that is why we

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lost! The point about this referendum, what we're saying to

:09:00.:09:02.

people is, that is why we lost, if you vote for us to leave, then we

:09:03.:09:06.

will be self-governing, it will not solve all of our problems but we

:09:07.:09:09.

will be in charge, ample propositions. Given everything that

:09:10.:09:14.

has been thrown at it so far from the Remain side, all of the big guns

:09:15.:09:19.

that have been wheeled out, even though the campaign only starts

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today, our you not surprised that it is not doing better, that it is nip

:09:24.:09:27.

and tuck in the polls, and believes side is showing momentum. -- Vote

:09:28.:09:34.

Leave side. I don't think it is nip and tuck. What is significant about

:09:35.:09:38.

these polls, from the start of the year, the polls have not shown that

:09:39.:09:41.

much of a shift, there has been a consistent situation. Showing its

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neck and neck. The telephone poles, which everybody seems to regard as

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the most accurate measure, they have shown significant... Haven't they

:09:54.:10:05.

shown the leeside narrowing the gap. This is the fundamental disadvantage

:10:06.:10:07.

they have, consistently in elections in this country we see there is

:10:08.:10:13.

innate bias towards the status quo. Ford believes side to have a chance,

:10:14.:10:18.

they need to very quickly start posting double-digit lead. -- for

:10:19.:10:23.

the Lee side. That would need to offset it. -- Leave. I understand

:10:24.:10:35.

the argument about the status quo, if we work to join, that would be a

:10:36.:10:40.

thumping know, if that is what the referendum was about, but the

:10:41.:10:43.

difference is this, the plus side is this, I don't think there is any

:10:44.:10:48.

doubt that the leave side has a bit of momentum, a bit of momentum over

:10:49.:10:51.

the last few weeks, but what is really interesting is the certainty

:10:52.:10:55.

of the vote, when you talk with people who are committed, they say,

:10:56.:11:01.

a sickly, if I have to be dragged on a stretcher, I'm going down to vote

:11:02.:11:05.

to leave, and there is more energy on our side, and passion, and the

:11:06.:11:10.

more people I speak with, who are just about Remain voters, they say

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their life is OK, they have paid the mortgage, but will they be motivated

:11:17.:11:20.

to go and vote? In the end it sounds obvious, it is those that turn out

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that win election. Will miss Jeremy Corbyn have got inspiration and

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motivation behind centre-left voters, which Remain needs to win,

:11:29.:11:33.

because Tory voters will split more Nigel Farage's Way, was that an

:11:34.:11:38.

inspiring, inspirational motivational speech yesterday?

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Jeremy Corbyn is only slightly marginally more Eurosceptic than

:11:44.:11:49.

Nigel! LAUGHTER What he has done is given people on

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the left licence to, if you like align themselves with David Cameron,

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and senior Tories. He spent most of the time bashing the government, he

:12:05.:12:08.

is entitled, news the Leader of the Opposition, I suppose. That is the

:12:09.:12:13.

fundamental thing, giving people the green light. Will you appear on vote

:12:14.:12:22.

leave platforms now? In fact, yes, one of our MEPs is appearing on that

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platform with Iain Duncan Smith, and Chris Grayling is coming on a

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grassroots out campaign platform with me and some others. Do you

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think you will win, as things stand? Yes. You call the election

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correctly, famously. I think, remain. Plenty of time to find out

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who is right and who is wrong, Nigel, stay with us, you will like

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this. Now, we've seen a lot of tactics

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employed on both sides rational argument,

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scaremongering and of But now a grassroots campaign group

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is using a new weapon, love. #hugabrit is asking EU citizens

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living in the UK to hug British people and then post

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the results on social media. It's been doing rather well

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on Twitter in recent days. This is Christine, who's German,

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hugging the musician Jarvis Cocker. He says he spends a lot of time

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in France but likes popping back to London for gigs

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and so is "completely against" And this is Katrin, another German,

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hugging the British Nigerian artist Yinka Shonibare, he says: "Wanting

:13:35.:13:37.

to leave is about clinging Not all the people being hugged

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are even alive. This is Geemette, who's French

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and clearly a fan of modernist literature, hugging

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a bust of Virginia Woolf. But most of the people

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being hugged aren't famous, it's mainly ordinary

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members of the public. This is Lina, from Lithuania,

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hugging her English friend Becky. And finally this is Birgit, who's

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also German, And as if by magic, Birgit Maass,

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who you'll recognise from that last How did this all come about? We

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wanted to do something positive, we do not want to do something that is

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patronising, telling the British people what to do, we just want to

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say, we are Europe, you are Europeans, we love you, do not leave

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us. How many pictures of people hugging have you gathered so far? It

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is really spread, a bit uncontrollable. We have more than

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100 for sure, but the website exploded and could not take on any

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more pictures. Home-made, grassroots, we do not have a budget,

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we are not aligned to any campaign, it does. We have built our own

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website, it was not easy, it has spread, people are sharing on

:15:03.:15:05.

Twitter and Instagram, it is hard to say how many we have for sure. How

:15:06.:15:13.

many citizens want Britain to stay? The rest of Europe, they love

:15:14.:15:19.

Britain, they want them to stay. Thinking of leaving Europe, people

:15:20.:15:24.

may say, yes, Europe is something different from you, but from our

:15:25.:15:30.

point of view. Just a bit! From our point of view, the EU is the

:15:31.:15:34.

structure that we have built, we have, for three generations, we have

:15:35.:15:38.

had piece, for me that is very important, I grew up with our

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grandfathers, I lost them in the war, for me, the EU, and for many

:15:43.:15:45.

other Europeans, this is what it is about. And so people are quite

:15:46.:15:52.

motivated. This is not "Project Fear", Nigel Farage. It's a

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conspiracy(!) LAUGHTER All this rubbish about not having

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budgets, I don't believe a word of it, it is conspiracy, it really is,

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I say this because, Jean-Claude Juncker on Tuesday this week try to

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hug me, I said, I am sorry, I am a bit old-fashioned about all of

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that... Clearly, this is a commission led initiative! I do not

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know where to begin... I do mean that...

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It is interesting to a say how good the European Union is. The euro has

:16:26.:16:32.

been wonderful for you. It has given you most of your growth over the

:16:33.:16:35.

last ten years, through increased exports. I suspect that if we had

:16:36.:16:41.

this conversation with people from Spain, Portugal, Cyprus or Greece,

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the point about the European project, not fighting each other,

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that takes my boxes, but economic and political union, that no-one has

:16:55.:16:58.

voted for, that is a different thing. I would argue that the EU is

:16:59.:17:05.

actually not working very at all. Let me just bring you back, because

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we are having and will have plenty of this. The British are famously

:17:10.:17:17.

not very tactile, unlike many of our European neighbours. Have you found

:17:18.:17:21.

any resistance? We have had a few awkward moments but most people that

:17:22.:17:27.

we have hugged, most of the reports we get, people are terribly polite

:17:28.:17:31.

and we have lived here for a long time, at least the core group, so we

:17:32.:17:35.

would not ambush people. There is not a hug squad are going out at

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night. It is only consensual. Would you like to give Nigel a hug? We did

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shake hands earlier. Go on, Nigel. This programme is the coffee and

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broadcasting. -- Kofi Annan. Thank you.

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Now - George Osborne has hailed as "groundbreaking" a new deal

:18:04.:18:05.

announced last night under which law enforcements agencies

:18:06.:18:08.

from the big five EU economies - including Britain -

:18:09.:18:11.

will share information on the true owners of companies,

:18:12.:18:13.

that will make it harder to evade tax.

:18:14.:18:19.

Earlier this week the the SNP criticised the government

:18:20.:18:21.

for devoting fewer resources to tackling tax fraud

:18:22.:18:23.

than to benefit fraud, though its figures have been

:18:24.:18:26.

challenged - but what are the public more concerned about?

:18:27.:18:28.

We sent Giles out with his balls to test the public mood.

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It is a political truth that most of us get wound up when we see people

:18:36.:18:41.

playing the system although it often depends on who we perceive to be

:18:42.:18:47.

doing the playing. But when it comes to tax or benefits, what upsets us

:18:48.:18:51.

more? People not paying as much tax as they could or should or people

:18:52.:18:54.

claiming more benefits than they should? The tax bid. It just as

:18:55.:19:07.

immoral. In fact, it's rather more immoral because people have

:19:08.:19:12.

desperate poverty, and they have a faint excuse. Otherwise, it's just

:19:13.:19:17.

greedy. Not paying your tax, that is also bad. But who is taking the

:19:18.:19:23.

benefits? Taxes also benefit. I think both are wrong but in the

:19:24.:19:28.

grand scheme of things, I think tax would probably be a lot more, with

:19:29.:19:33.

regards to proportion. I am one of those people, you have to give

:19:34.:19:36.

people the benefit of the doubt in a lot of ways with benefits. People

:19:37.:19:44.

know it is wrong to avoid tax. Definitely people but take more

:19:45.:19:47.

benefits than they should. Definitely. White of the two, both

:19:48.:19:53.

considered to be morally wrong? Why does that wind you up more? Because

:19:54.:19:59.

I am a big worker and I pay loads of tax. I would say people not paying

:20:00.:20:05.

taxes. That is a difficult one. I think you are right, I think the tax

:20:06.:20:09.

issue. We have a moral responsibility to pay tax. Ready,

:20:10.:20:18.

steady, go. Benefits are for those people who deserve it, 100%. Tax is

:20:19.:20:23.

for people that pay it if they need to and if they avoid it, that is

:20:24.:20:28.

perfectly legitimate. My premise was people claiming to many benefits.

:20:29.:20:34.

Well, that is knotty. In his bid to make a point about benefits, one man

:20:35.:20:39.

put in a lot of balls. We counted, there were 16. I have to take out

:20:40.:20:43.

15. Hold on, this could take some time. 15. I sympathise with not

:20:44.:20:52.

wanting to pay taxes. Do you know why that is? Is it an emotional

:20:53.:20:57.

reaction? I think it is an emotional reaction and may be a rebellion

:20:58.:21:02.

against, I don't know, the man. Don't pay the man? Very firmly, you

:21:03.:21:10.

put the ball in the tax box. Socking it to the man. We have a

:21:11.:21:16.

responsibility to pay our taxes, fair and square, not too much, not

:21:17.:21:20.

too little, what is appropriate. A tricky results to analyse. Benefits,

:21:21.:21:25.

just ahead, but here is the interesting thing. The people who

:21:26.:21:28.

found that benefit fraud was more morally wrong tended to be less well

:21:29.:21:33.

off. The people who felt that tax avoidance was wrong tended to be the

:21:34.:21:37.

better off. Make of that what you will.

:21:38.:21:43.

I hope he went back to pick them up and didn't just leave them outside

:21:44.:21:45.

Charing Cross station. I'm joined now by the Chair

:21:46.:21:48.

of the Public Accounts Committee, Her committee has said this

:21:49.:21:52.

morning that the government is "not doing enough" to tackle

:21:53.:21:56.

the estimated ?16 billion cost Welcome to the programme. Your

:21:57.:22:02.

committee says that at any one time HMRC is investigating around 35

:22:03.:22:07.

wealthy individuals for tax evasion. Were you surprised by that figure?

:22:08.:22:12.

As a committee, for a one time we wanted them to take firm action

:22:13.:22:17.

against people to use them as an example. But what is interesting

:22:18.:22:20.

here is that they have been given funding so that they will be able to

:22:21.:22:25.

investigate 100 by 20 20. If they could investigate 100 but they do

:22:26.:22:28.

not have the resources, why are they not been given the resources? And

:22:29.:22:38.

how many of the 35 result in prosecution is? No, and it is a

:22:39.:22:41.

moving thing because when they get a result, then they will do it. --

:22:42.:22:45.

result in prosecutions. This has been a running issue. But if they do

:22:46.:22:53.

not prosecute, sometimes have they taken the view that, well, we could

:22:54.:22:57.

prosecute but it could take ages and the result could be uncertain? Or we

:22:58.:23:03.

could do a deal now and we would get a chunk of change. That is partly

:23:04.:23:06.

why we have a disagreement as a committee. You do not think they

:23:07.:23:11.

should do that? We recognise that sometimes they might be grounds for

:23:12.:23:14.

that but we think the lack of prosecutions is woefully inadequate

:23:15.:23:17.

and does not set the right tone for the taxpayer. And that means also

:23:18.:23:24.

that tax fraudsters think they can get away with it. The committee

:23:25.:23:29.

claims that the current modus operandi of HMRC creates the

:23:30.:23:31.

impression that the rich can get away with tax fraud, is that right?

:23:32.:23:36.

There is a perception of that. We get a lot of correspondence about

:23:37.:23:40.

tax. There is that the general perception. We think this is perhaps

:23:41.:23:44.

the difference between HMRC having a minister to read it and a committee

:23:45.:23:51.

led by politicians. We think there is the need for examples to be set.

:23:52.:23:55.

But we recognise that these guys, the ones who really defraud the

:23:56.:23:59.

system, they have a lot of expense of advice and go to great lengths to

:24:00.:24:03.

hide it. It is a lengthy and expensive process to investigate.

:24:04.:24:07.

But we're glad to see the extra money going in and we hope to see

:24:08.:24:11.

more high profile results as a result. Let's look at the deal with

:24:12.:24:18.

big economies like France and Germany that George Osborne has

:24:19.:24:21.

announced, meant to facilitate better exchange of information and

:24:22.:24:26.

account details and company details between of these five economies

:24:27.:24:31.

only. Mr Osborne described it as ground-breaking. In what way is it?

:24:32.:24:37.

I would describe it as a good step in the right direction but not

:24:38.:24:40.

ground-breaking. Hopefully we will see it snowballing. It takes more

:24:41.:24:46.

than one hammer to crack a nut and we have a long way to go. Hopefully

:24:47.:24:50.

others will follow suit but it is too early to say. If it includes

:24:51.:24:54.

companies like France and Germany, which are broadly the same in terms

:24:55.:24:59.

of tax rules and tax collecting systems as we do. If you have a

:25:00.:25:07.

company in Germany, whether it is in your name or of beneficial

:25:08.:25:11.

ownership, you will be paying tax in Germany, so how does it make much

:25:12.:25:15.

difference? Let's be clear, we know that in terms of tax avoidance,

:25:16.:25:22.

there are plenty of multinationals that avoid paying tax in a lot of

:25:23.:25:28.

places. So this is more for big companies? This is about beneficial

:25:29.:25:33.

ownership. But we know that those are public companies. The beneficial

:25:34.:25:38.

ownership is a way of masking where the benefits are. But if you are

:25:39.:25:44.

company, even if it done behind beneficial ownership, masked in

:25:45.:25:51.

French or Germany, that will not matter to the German authorities

:25:52.:25:58.

because you will be paying tax. In a couple of months, we will find out

:25:59.:26:01.

what difference it makes. The Chancellor has called for the rest

:26:02.:26:04.

of the G20 to get on board. I was looking at the list and that

:26:05.:26:09.

includes China and Saudi Arabia. How quickly will that happen? That is

:26:10.:26:12.

why I am saying it is a good step in the right direction, but unless you

:26:13.:26:18.

have every country, it is still a challenge. Those countries tend to

:26:19.:26:25.

cooperate with the tax authorities anyway. Despite the argy-bargy with

:26:26.:26:29.

the frontbenchers, is it true to say that there is a large measure of

:26:30.:26:33.

political consensus between the mainstream parties on what needs to

:26:34.:26:36.

be done to tackle what has been called the tax gap, the bit that

:26:37.:26:41.

we're losing through either evasion or aggressive tax avoidance? That is

:26:42.:26:45.

the distinction. Certainly, there is a consensus in terms of evasion. I

:26:46.:26:49.

think as we saw with the debate last week, is when it comes into the

:26:50.:26:54.

terms of avoidance that the political gap starts to emerge. But

:26:55.:26:59.

the Chancellor has been outspoken. He has, but what George Osborne

:27:00.:27:03.

would define as tax avoidance and what John McDonnell would describe

:27:04.:27:06.

as tax avoidance are different things as we saw last week. I

:27:07.:27:10.

thought what was interesting was that the government was on the back

:27:11.:27:14.

foot significantly when the issue was tax evasion. When the debate

:27:15.:27:21.

shifted to tax avoidance, they became more confident of their

:27:22.:27:25.

political footing. We will see how this progresses. Please come back

:27:26.:27:27.

and report to us. Happy to do so. The issue of sexism in the workplace

:27:28.:27:30.

has reared its ugly head again. And this time, the workplace

:27:31.:27:33.

is in the palace of Westminster. On Tuesday morning, the Spectator

:27:34.:27:36.

journalist Isabel Hardman Her tweets stirred

:27:37.:27:41.

up a twitter storm, receiving many comments

:27:42.:28:10.

from supporters but Amongst them Isabel Oakeshott,

:28:11.:28:11.

who as well as writing Since then Hardman has

:28:12.:28:21.

since received a private apology from the unnamed individual,

:28:22.:28:29.

who is described as being But this hasn't put

:28:30.:28:31.

the issue to bed. With us is now is Laura Perrins,

:28:32.:28:35.

co-editor of Conservative Woman and Catherine Mayer,

:28:36.:28:38.

journalist and founder Welcome to you both. It is 2016. MPs

:28:39.:28:49.

should not be saying to female journalists, I want to talk to the

:28:50.:28:54.

totty. It is going to be a very long life if every time a man pays a

:28:55.:28:58.

woman a component in the workplace, a Twitter storm is going to be

:28:59.:29:03.

started. You think it is a component to call somebody totty? We know the

:29:04.:29:08.

words that was used. Is it a condiment? The point is, this idea

:29:09.:29:14.

that men might find a woman attractive in the workplace,

:29:15.:29:19.

suddenly they cannot take her seriously professionally, this is a

:29:20.:29:24.

misguided idea. We live, as you say, in 2016, and men and women are

:29:25.:29:29.

working together increasingly. Men can still be attracted to women but

:29:30.:29:33.

in the -- at the same time, they can still take them seriously

:29:34.:29:38.

professionally. If you are offended by what a colleague may say in front

:29:39.:29:44.

of another colleague, I think what you should do is pull them up on it

:29:45.:29:48.

there and then, and say, listen, I actually don't think that is on. I

:29:49.:29:53.

find that offensive. And see if he apologises. By going to the whips

:29:54.:29:57.

office, you are basically forcing an apology out of him, which is not

:29:58.:30:01.

worth anything. It is like standing over a child and saying, you better

:30:02.:30:06.

apologise or I will take your toys away. It is not an apology. Let's do

:30:07.:30:11.

this in two parts. The appropriateness of the word and the

:30:12.:30:15.

response. How offended would you be by the words totty? For one thing, I

:30:16.:30:21.

find it hilarious that we are discussing the appropriateness of

:30:22.:30:25.

her response when clearly his comment was possibly inappropriate.

:30:26.:30:35.

Just possibly? It is just silly. Was it inappropriate? It was

:30:36.:30:39.

inappropriate in the sense that all that kind of casual sexism in the

:30:40.:30:43.

workplace is inappropriate. But I spent 30 years as a journalist and I

:30:44.:30:48.

understand exactly the response that is no response, brush it over, just

:30:49.:30:52.

deal with it in person, but that is precisely how you enable that

:30:53.:30:58.

culture. So I cheer what she did. Not because I felt she needed to do

:30:59.:31:02.

it from a position of personal weakness, because she could not cope

:31:03.:31:06.

with it in some way herself, but precisely because she was trying to

:31:07.:31:10.

change the workplace culture for other journalists and other women.

:31:11.:31:14.

What do you say to Laura's point that a more appropriate response

:31:15.:31:17.

would have been to have gone up to them and say, don't dare use that

:31:18.:31:23.

word with me. That is why I am laughing about discussing the

:31:24.:31:27.

appropriateness of her response. Any response she had made would have

:31:28.:31:30.

been appropriate in that context. But what would have been more

:31:31.:31:36.

appropriate? What Isabel did or what Laura is suggesting? I think what

:31:37.:31:41.

Laura is suggesting does not tackle the underlying culture. What Isabel

:31:42.:31:45.

did has the benefit of shining a spotlight onto it and why it is a

:31:46.:31:51.

generating debate. The MP in question said, I want to speak to

:31:52.:31:56.

the totty. My idea of sexism is saying, I don't want to speak to you

:31:57.:32:00.

because you are woman and I am not taking you seriously. I think it

:32:01.:32:03.

would have been worse if he had said it behind her back. It may have been

:32:04.:32:08.

ham-fisted. But he did not say he wanted to speak to her because she

:32:09.:32:10.

is one of the best informed political journalists in the

:32:11.:32:13.

country, which he is. He said he wanted to speak to using a word that

:32:14.:32:16.

referred to her looks. point you are assuming that he does

:32:17.:32:24.

not take her seriously, that is a massive assumption, he is saying

:32:25.:32:27.

that he wants to talk to her, in a ham-fisted way, she should have

:32:28.:32:31.

pulled him up on it there and then, not gone to Twitter and Twitter

:32:32.:32:34.

shamed him. We all know his name would have come out, even though she

:32:35.:32:40.

has not said it. The second point, as I said, if every sort of

:32:41.:32:43.

interaction between a manned and a woman is going to be sat down in the

:32:44.:32:47.

workplace as sexist, it is going to be a very long life! This is a

:32:48.:32:52.

culture of not taking women seriously. She is an extremely...

:32:53.:33:00.

What...? She is extremely... Shall we ask the beefcake? LAUGHTER

:33:01.:33:04.

That is quite inappropriate! LAUGHTER

:33:05.:33:13.

Hearing in slices on this is fairly familiar... (!) on both sides of the

:33:14.:33:21.

debate, not just a gender clash but a generational clash, different

:33:22.:33:23.

opinions, the reality is that there is a new generation of female

:33:24.:33:27.

journalists in the lobby, like Isabel, and whether or not people

:33:28.:33:31.

think it is innocent or not innocent, they are not going to put

:33:32.:33:34.

up with the sort of rubbish that women did in the 1960s... 20, 30

:33:35.:33:40.

years ago. I have been a journalist for such a long time, this is why

:33:41.:33:44.

this matters, when I started I thought this would be eradicated,

:33:45.:33:49.

the point is that it is still perpetuating, young journalists are

:33:50.:33:52.

having to put up with it, does it matter, yes it does because it

:33:53.:33:58.

matters in terms of the journalistic output... I think what we are seeing

:33:59.:34:04.

is they are experiencing what Isabel has demonstrated, she will not put

:34:05.:34:09.

up with it. It has got marginally better... Surely it has got better.

:34:10.:34:16.

I can certainly testified to ongoing problems... I do not know any female

:34:17.:34:21.

journalists who have not experienced harassment by colleagues or

:34:22.:34:25.

interviewees. Even in the house of parliament. We must leave it there.

:34:26.:34:31.

Coming up in a moment it's our regular look at what's been

:34:32.:34:35.

For now it's time to say goodbye to my guest of the day.

:34:36.:34:42.

So for the next half an hour we're going to be focussing on Europe.

:34:43.:34:45.

We'll be discussing the proposed crackdown on tax avoidance

:34:46.:34:48.

in Europe, a deal to share airline passenger details with the police

:34:49.:34:50.

and security services and what a Brexit could mean

:34:51.:34:53.

First though here's our guide to the latest from Europe,

:34:54.:34:56.

VOICEOVER: Responding to the Panama Papers Revelation, the EU announced

:34:57.:35:05.

on the measures on tax avoidance, leaving big businesses with nowhere

:35:06.:35:09.

to hide, forcing them to declare how much corporation tax they pay

:35:10.:35:12.

outside of the EU, including in tax havens. The migrant crisis goes on,

:35:13.:35:19.

with Italian coastguards rescuing 4000 migrants in just two days,

:35:20.:35:24.

Austria has strengthened its border controls, causing tensions between

:35:25.:35:28.

bureaucrats and member states. This is EU officials including Council

:35:29.:35:31.

President Donald Tusk appeared in front of MEPs on Wednesday, to

:35:32.:35:35.

defend the controversial deal to return migrants to Turkey. Testers

:35:36.:35:42.

in Paris spent a second week sleeping out in the Place de la

:35:43.:35:46.

Republique, expressing anger over labour reforms. That Occupy is.

:35:47.:35:51.

British MEPs say Jamaal, perhaps did not mean to be caught making this

:35:52.:35:56.

rather rude hand gesture, during the European Parliament session. --

:35:57.:36:11.

Saeed Jamal. -- the protest -- protesters.

:36:12.:36:13.

And with us for the next thirty minutes I've been

:36:14.:36:15.

joined by two MEPs - the Conservative, Timothy Kirkhope

:36:16.:36:17.

Let's take a look at one of those stories in more detail,

:36:18.:36:22.

that's the EU's efforts to crackdown on tax avoidance and evasion

:36:23.:36:26.

They are saying that the corporation should include details of what is

:36:27.:36:32.

operating in tax havens if they want to trade with the EU. The right

:36:33.:36:38.

thing to do? It is right that we should have far more transparency,

:36:39.:36:42.

there is an understanding that there has been real concerns over tax

:36:43.:36:47.

havens, wherever they may be, and I am very encouraged by not only the

:36:48.:36:52.

attitude that we are taking in Europe but also Chancellor George

:36:53.:36:57.

Osborne with his colleagues, and the meeting at the IMF. Is the EU sure,

:36:58.:37:01.

that it has done enough about tax havens, in its missed, I think of

:37:02.:37:07.

Luxembourg, even, some people say Ireland. It has made progress, one

:37:08.:37:11.

of the problems we have, of course, as conservatives, we do not want to

:37:12.:37:15.

see tax harmonisation is coming in on the back of this crackdown. We

:37:16.:37:20.

need to separate the two. That is one of the reasons why we sometimes

:37:21.:37:24.

have difficulty with some of the things put forward, the proposal

:37:25.:37:27.

from the commission and the European Parliament. We have no objection to

:37:28.:37:31.

an international system where countries get together to do this

:37:32.:37:34.

kind of thing, most tax havens are moving outside of the Unocha. Vonage

:37:35.:37:38.

and Steyn, and Switzerland, because the EU are begin to clamp down on

:37:39.:37:43.

them. The danger is that if you do not have an international system,

:37:44.:37:47.

they move out and do their business elsewhere. -- outside of the EU.

:37:48.:37:59.

From Lytton Steyn. -- list and Steyn. Has the EU fade a role in

:38:00.:38:05.

beginning best practice, in doing things which we know cannot be

:38:06.:38:08.

resolved in a European level alone, but it has started the ball rolling.

:38:09.:38:13.

The EU is not supposed to be concerned in taxes, it is meant to

:38:14.:38:21.

be one of the red lines. When the EU does anything it is all about

:38:22.:38:28.

long-term ambitions. It may initially seem like a good thing,

:38:29.:38:32.

but we have got a look at the longer plans. The use should not look to

:38:33.:38:38.

see if member states are able to gather tax revenues that is their

:38:39.:38:43.

due? It is something that should be done on an international level. --

:38:44.:38:50.

the EU. You will only have a partial solution if Russia and the US are

:38:51.:38:56.

not in it. This shows a good example to the world, the fact we have five

:38:57.:39:01.

Nations agreed on taking much stronger steps to avoid this tax

:39:02.:39:10.

evasion. It will not be as ground-breaking as the Chancellor is

:39:11.:39:14.

trying to make out. The is a very good starting point, a good example

:39:15.:39:19.

of working together. One of the ways in which you can avoid tax

:39:20.:39:25.

avoidance, aggressive taxation, flat tax system, simple and easy of the

:39:26.:39:28.

people to understand and then people will be more willing to pay their

:39:29.:39:30.

taxes. Now, MEPs voted this week to set up

:39:31.:39:35.

a joint system for police and justice officials to access

:39:36.:39:39.

airline passenger data, covering Passenger Name Record

:39:40.:39:41.

data includes names, contact details, itinerary,

:39:42.:39:45.

the credit card used for payment and baggage information,

:39:46.:39:47.

along with passport details. It will not include a person's

:39:48.:39:49.

race or ethnic origin, religion, political opinion,

:39:50.:39:51.

trade union membership, This data is routinely

:39:52.:39:53.

collected by airlines, but the EU is planning to set up

:39:54.:39:55.

"Passenger Information Units" in each EU member state to collect

:39:56.:39:58.

the information instead. The units will be able to keep this

:39:59.:40:09.

data for up to five years, and can pass the data on to law

:40:10.:40:13.

enforcement officials only in cases Critics are concerned over privacy

:40:14.:40:16.

and the length of time the data can be stored for,

:40:17.:40:23.

but supporters argue that it is important

:40:24.:40:25.

to have a "common high standard", and that this is less

:40:26.:40:28.

information than you would give High-flyer a lot the United States

:40:29.:40:46.

you have to give all of this advance passenger information, and that goes

:40:47.:40:53.

to the US border force. -- I fly a lot to the United States. If there

:40:54.:40:56.

was something dodgy, they would stop me going to the United States before

:40:57.:41:00.

I even got on the aeroplane. A lot of people will be surprised that

:41:01.:41:03.

does not happen in Europe. This is my report, I have been working on it

:41:04.:41:08.

for five years. Having to deal with quite a lot of opposition, mostly

:41:09.:41:11.

based on the fact that individual data and privacy is something that

:41:12.:41:15.

obviously we are concerned about but some groups believe that take Robert

:41:16.:41:19.

Lee over security. We have an agreement with the United States,

:41:20.:41:22.

three years ago we entered into that. We being the youth. Yes, that

:41:23.:41:29.

is the only way in which you can operate. The Americans would not let

:41:30.:41:32.

you fly otherwise. International crime is international, terrorism

:41:33.:41:37.

does not respect borders, but patterns of activity, which is what

:41:38.:41:41.

these proposals are designed to deal with, patterns of activity are

:41:42.:41:43.

enormously important for intelligence agencies and police, I

:41:44.:41:47.

am delighted that we got the votes this week to get them. Parliament

:41:48.:41:53.

finally approved, there had been resistance. Five years, it has taken

:41:54.:41:58.

ten years of my life! It is now through, it is not a silver bullet

:41:59.:42:01.

but it is an important tool to give us greater security when we travel,

:42:02.:42:05.

not only when we travel but also on the ground. Quite a large section of

:42:06.:42:12.

the parliament are against it, 179 MEPs... Almost one third voted

:42:13.:42:17.

against it. Including yourself. Did you vote against it? I did indeed,

:42:18.:42:22.

we have a passenger name recognition system in the UK which we share with

:42:23.:42:25.

other people and other countries have systems they share, this gives

:42:26.:42:29.

an enormous amount of personal information, which on the basis of

:42:30.:42:34.

common recognition, which means that week except that all European Union

:42:35.:42:38.

countries are on any call footing, we give information to

:42:39.:42:43.

institutionally corrupt countries like Romania and Bulgaria, we do not

:42:44.:42:46.

think that is a good idea, who knows what they can do with it. We even

:42:47.:42:51.

know in this country that government-held information on

:42:52.:42:54.

citizens often goes amiss. It is true, they can lose it, but how can

:42:55.:43:00.

they miss use it? Criminal purposes, if someone can gain access. --

:43:01.:43:11.

misuse. This is quite ridiculous, I have got to dispute this, because

:43:12.:43:16.

the EU is in the title, that is why he voted against it, we have very

:43:17.:43:20.

tight safeguards, quality standards, a lot of them based on the British

:43:21.:43:24.

system, which has been in existence, but instead of these ridiculous

:43:25.:43:28.

slow-moving bilaterals to get information about suspicious people

:43:29.:43:32.

travelling, from now on, and it is very strict rules and controls we

:43:33.:43:35.

will be able to move information fast, as fast as terrorists can move

:43:36.:43:40.

much and that is the key. We have got to do it together. Terrorist

:43:41.:43:45.

have moved on, they realise they can be trapped in this way, we have seen

:43:46.:43:49.

in the Harris attacks and Brussels attacks that is how they do it.

:43:50.:43:52.

Chain and open borders, that is the biggest problem, that people can

:43:53.:43:58.

move across Europe freely and get in on forged papers. -- Paris attacks.

:43:59.:44:06.

It is perfectly true that if you... If you close one area, it can open

:44:07.:44:11.

other areas, but it is not a reason for doing it, it has worked pretty

:44:12.:44:15.

well on the trans-Atlantic side of things, between the Uganda America,

:44:16.:44:20.

should we not... If we are better protected that way, as we crossed

:44:21.:44:24.

the Atlantic, should we not have the equivalent safeguards, if I fly from

:44:25.:44:30.

Nice to Berlin. We do it with countries that we can trust. We

:44:31.:44:34.

cannot trust all of the countries in the EU, let me give you a point

:44:35.:44:40.

which illustrates this. About this common recognition fallacy. European

:44:41.:44:43.

arrest warrant, anybody can be shipped off to any other country on

:44:44.:44:46.

the strength of a piece of paper, the European Court of Human

:44:47.:45:00.

Rights I think it was has recently adjusted a judgment where we cannot

:45:01.:45:03.

send people back from Britain, to serve their sentence in their own

:45:04.:45:06.

country, because of human rights. This common recognition thing, it is

:45:07.:45:08.

not all of the same level. Is it necessary for the authorities to

:45:09.:45:11.

keep the data for five years. It is made anonymous after six months,

:45:12.:45:13.

people have not called on that, it becomes statistically important but

:45:14.:45:16.

not statistically. -- statistically but not specifically. What does that

:45:17.:45:22.

mean? Intelligence agencies are looking at patterns, and developing

:45:23.:45:25.

patterns, this is the key to intelligence. You would know that I

:45:26.:45:29.

had made a trip but you would not know it was me. You knew that trips

:45:30.:45:34.

were making certain routes, you mention going to a European city

:45:35.:45:38.

from outside, what people are doing and will continue to do is to do an

:45:39.:45:42.

indirect set of travel, maybe from Istanbul to Stockholm to Madrid to

:45:43.:45:47.

Berlin, maybe to attack Paris or London. I think that our own system

:45:48.:45:52.

has been very successful, but it is having to rely upon bilaterals

:45:53.:45:56.

occasionally, it is not good enough to try to deal with the modern

:45:57.:46:02.

threats that we have. When does it coming? Very quickly, within two

:46:03.:46:05.

years. I'm hoping that we will be operating a lot of it within months.

:46:06.:46:09.

Now, David Cameron called it a "once in a generation" decision.

:46:10.:46:12.

Should we stay in the European Union?

:46:13.:46:14.

Will we still have access to the single market?

:46:15.:46:17.

If we leave would we be able to curb migration?

:46:18.:46:19.

But perhaps some of those people most affected by the decision

:46:20.:46:22.

are the two million Brits living on the continent,

:46:23.:46:24.

many of whom won't be able to vote in the upcoming referendum.

:46:25.:46:27.

Our Adam Fleming has been to Malta to meet some of them.

:46:28.:46:38.

These are celebrating the UK leaving. -- the Maltese. It is the

:46:39.:46:45.

freak and a bank holiday commemorating the moment in 1979

:46:46.:46:49.

when British troops left to these islands. -- freedom and a bank

:46:50.:46:55.

holiday. But in truth, the Brits never really left. There are 12,000

:46:56.:47:00.

of them still living here. Come with me to meet some of them. Amanda

:47:01.:47:03.

thinks the European Union makes sense for trade but she worked on an

:47:04.:47:08.

EU project of the did not seem like value for money, leaving her

:47:09.:47:12.

conflicted. I have benefited from working and living across the EU. I

:47:13.:47:18.

like to travel across the EU. And then I am kind of thinking, as

:47:19.:47:23.

humans we like the status quo, we tend towards that. So I do need to

:47:24.:47:29.

just check what I'm taking for granted, and the assumptions I am

:47:30.:47:32.

making, that they actually make sense. Some longer term residents

:47:33.:47:37.

like Peter cannot vote because they have lived abroad for more than 15

:47:38.:47:41.

years. I am actually quite annoyed about it. I would like to have some

:47:42.:47:46.

say. I am still paying tax in the UK and I have always paid them there. I

:47:47.:47:52.

think perhaps I should have a vote. Among other retirees, the arguments

:47:53.:47:56.

sound just like the ones you would hear in the pub back home. I don't

:47:57.:48:01.

know what I want to know about it. I feel that the politicians, the ones

:48:02.:48:05.

that come out are telling you the scaremongering about staying in, and

:48:06.:48:11.

the ones that want you to stay in our scaremongering about coming out.

:48:12.:48:14.

You are getting bad points on both sides. My gut reaction is better the

:48:15.:48:23.

devil you know, stay in. We like to obey the laws, but sometimes a lot

:48:24.:48:26.

of the things that are coming out, the red tape and everything coming

:48:27.:48:32.

out, it seems to be making things up as they go along sometimes. You

:48:33.:48:36.

think of the UK should be making its own laws but you have actually left

:48:37.:48:42.

the UK. But the reason I left, I go back very often and I am very loyal,

:48:43.:48:51.

by the way. I am a royalist. There are a few exclusively expat worries.

:48:52.:48:56.

I had a look on the internet and one of the things they were talking

:48:57.:49:00.

about, the retirement pension, they might have to frees that, and they

:49:01.:49:06.

might not give you any of the increases over the years, like we do

:49:07.:49:13.

in England. That is all I am worried about, my pension. An Freedom Day,

:49:14.:49:19.

the Maltese prime minister visits this memorial. He has tried to be

:49:20.:49:23.

reassuring. He says that British people's health care in Malta is

:49:24.:49:29.

covered by an agreement by the two countries signed before either was

:49:30.:49:34.

in the EU, and the tax system is generous to foreign inventions. And

:49:35.:49:38.

this Swiss law firm is not getting calls from worried Brits in Malta.

:49:39.:49:42.

Instead, it is worried Brits in Britain. Generally, these are people

:49:43.:49:48.

living in London, British or otherwise, and for them that is the

:49:49.:49:52.

European capital of financial services. Previously, they relied on

:49:53.:49:55.

London being not only London but also part of the European Union, and

:49:56.:50:01.

now they will need to look for another central European city which

:50:02.:50:05.

is friendly to financial services and generally pro-business. Of

:50:06.:50:12.

course, Malta offers more than that, the mild climate and the sun and the

:50:13.:50:16.

sea and the General Mediterranean way of life. Malta has obvious links

:50:17.:50:20.

with the UK, making people here seem pretty relaxed about the referendum.

:50:21.:50:28.

Globally, just 106,000 expats are on the electoral roll, which suggests

:50:29.:50:30.

that their postal votes will not have a massive impact on the result.

:50:31.:50:38.

Should British expats who are living in the EU and still British

:50:39.:50:43.

citizens, should they have the vote in this referendum? I would have

:50:44.:50:49.

liked them to have had the vote. But I don't think they are. I don't

:50:50.:50:52.

think they will change the voting system for this. I really would have

:50:53.:50:57.

been a good idea for them to have something to say because they are a

:50:58.:51:01.

component, living in Europe, and they are British. Do you think they

:51:02.:51:07.

should? The cut-off was 15 years ago, I personally would not have too

:51:08.:51:12.

much trouble... Explain that, you think if you have been away for 15

:51:13.:51:17.

years, you lose the right to vote? I think that is a fair point. I would

:51:18.:51:20.

not have an objection to them voting if they had recently left. For the

:51:21.:51:26.

expats we saw there in Malta, and there are many more in Spain and

:51:27.:51:37.

France, if we were to leave, are they not right to be worried about

:51:38.:51:42.

their residency status and access to health care and so on? The macro no,

:51:43.:51:52.

because there have always been Brits living abroad. There are two and a

:51:53.:51:55.

half times as many foreign people living in Britain then in the EU. --

:51:56.:52:05.

than British people living in the EU. We're certainly not going to do

:52:06.:52:08.

anything to the Europeans living in our country, and as for health

:52:09.:52:12.

services, we have reciprocal arrangements already, or we had them

:52:13.:52:17.

before. And there is no reason why it shouldn't. This is what you

:52:18.:52:21.

always say, Jeremy, there is no reason why this should not be. I

:52:22.:52:24.

would say that actually there is a lot of reasoning why it would not

:52:25.:52:30.

be. We are not part of the EU, if we're not we are essentially at the

:52:31.:52:35.

mercy of different states. Malta may have a positive attitude because of

:52:36.:52:38.

its history with Britain, but a lot of other countries do not and will

:52:39.:52:43.

not. And I think therefore it is irrational in to tell the public

:52:44.:52:46.

that it should be all right on the night. I don't know. -- it is a very

:52:47.:52:54.

rash thing to tell the public. A lot of European countries do not have

:52:55.:52:57.

equivalent health services. You have to pay or have insurance in Greece.

:52:58.:53:01.

In terms of the arrangement we have got, Britain pays far more out to

:53:02.:53:05.

the European Union and we get back in terms of this. Recent figures

:53:06.:53:12.

show that we have spent about ?683 million in the EU, while we got ?50

:53:13.:53:16.

million back. It is published figures. Was that in your manifesto?

:53:17.:53:25.

You think nothing will really change? Why would it. I think it is

:53:26.:53:30.

a massive danger. It is not scaremongering, it is reality.

:53:31.:53:36.

Now it's one of the EU's smallest countries,

:53:37.:53:38.

but its size perhaps belies its influence.

:53:39.:53:43.

It's the home of the European Court of Justice

:53:44.:53:45.

Jean Claude Juncker, is President of the

:53:46.:53:48.

Adam's been to meet the neighbours in Luxembourg.

:53:49.:54:01.

In morning at the stables, except it is actually the airport.

:54:02.:54:09.

Luxembourg's freight only airline, the biggest of its kind in Europe,

:54:10.:54:14.

specialises in transporting expensive courses. Around 3000 a

:54:15.:54:22.

year. At thousands of euros each. The horses travel in this specially

:54:23.:54:26.

designed container. Wood shavings on the ground so it feels like a stable

:54:27.:54:32.

back home. And the door, so that the groom can check on the animals

:54:33.:54:36.

during the flight. There is a groom on hand all time, along with food,

:54:37.:54:43.

water and a vet at each end of the flight. We have to stop at

:54:44.:54:48.

Prestwick, LA, Seattle and Calgary. When will they arise in Canada?

:54:49.:54:55.

Tomorrow in the afternoon, I think. -- when will they arise. It is quite

:54:56.:55:01.

a long flight. And it is not just horses. The company has flown

:55:02.:55:05.

forces, a giraffe and even a quail. All of this is very Luxembourg.

:55:06.:55:09.

Looking after assets for fairly wealthy people who live elsewhere. A

:55:10.:55:14.

tradition that has made this tiny country very big news. Two years

:55:15.:55:19.

ago, a cache of documents showed that hundreds of multi national

:55:20.:55:23.

companies enjoyed minuscule tax rates here, a scandal that came to

:55:24.:55:32.

be known as Luxleaks. I went to this town to meet the mayor, also the

:55:33.:55:36.

general secretary of the Christian social People's party, which has

:55:37.:55:40.

provided most of Luxembourg's leaders since the Second World War.

:55:41.:55:44.

Are you worried that Luxembourg sometimes looks like the pan of

:55:45.:55:48.

Europe? I hope they do not see us as that. Because we are not the Panama

:55:49.:55:58.

of Europe. Of course, our affairs might not look quite right, but a

:55:59.:56:03.

lot of things have changed, and I think when we compare ourselves with

:56:04.:56:08.

London, we do not have to be ashamed of ourselves. Ouch. He is also pals

:56:09.:56:17.

with Jean-Claude Juncker, now president of the European

:56:18.:56:22.

commission. So what do you do the night around the youngers? --

:56:23.:56:38.

Junkers. You have a ball, with... Jean-Claude Juncker is a fan of

:56:39.:56:42.

pinball machines? He likes to play. And as for our four-legged friends,

:56:43.:56:47.

they are ready for take-off to Canada I hope they pay attention to

:56:48.:56:56.

the city information. Many of the companies that would criticise for

:56:57.:57:01.

not paying tax are not doing so because they are based in Luxembourg

:57:02.:57:05.

and many of these arrangements were put in place by Jean-Claude Juncker

:57:06.:57:08.

when he was Bannister. Are we right to be suspicious? I think the Brits

:57:09.:57:15.

having natural inclination to be suspicious. -- when he was

:57:16.:57:19.

Bannister. I think the way that this is moving does not favour anybody

:57:20.:57:22.

because it happens to be the place where he used to live. But it is a

:57:23.:57:29.

poacher turned gamekeeper situation, the man who presided over this is

:57:30.:57:33.

now the man cleaning it up. It is incredible. A slight irony, perhaps.

:57:34.:57:38.

We were using the European Parliament when this subject came up

:57:39.:57:41.

because Mr Yunker at presided over all of this when he was Bannister.

:57:42.:57:46.

And now he's telling the rest of Europe to clean up their act. -- Mr

:57:47.:57:51.

Juncker. And now Luxembourg is the HQ of the European union. They get

:57:52.:57:59.

an enormous amount of money out of the EU. And there is a third

:58:00.:58:03.

Parliament that nobody knows about, mothballs, but which we are paying

:58:04.:58:08.

millions for the upkeep of. A lot of people have a lot of nostalgia for

:58:09.:58:13.

Luxembourg. I remember silver sea and margarine, Saturday night out.

:58:14.:58:18.

It was a wonderful programme. What does that had to do with Company is

:58:19.:58:23.

not paying their taxes? I don't know. I don't know what happens to

:58:24.:58:28.

radio Luxembourg. -- companies not paying their taxes. It is still a

:58:29.:58:32.

place where the tax is very low. It is. And companies will therefore go

:58:33.:58:39.

there until something is done. Of course, we are in favour of having a

:58:40.:58:43.

competitive tax system in Europe and hopefully our system will attract a

:58:44.:58:46.

lot of people to Britain. As long as we are in the EU. We will leave it

:58:47.:58:53.

there. That is it for now. We'll to see you soon. Bye-bye. -- we hope to

:58:54.:58:59.

Andrew Neil is joined by the journalist Dan Hodges to discuss the start of the official EU referendum campaign period and the deal George Osborne has reached on European co-operation over tax evasion. Plus a look at all the latest news from Europe with Conservative MEP Timothy Kirkhope and UKIP's Gerard Batten.


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