14/04/2016 Daily Politics


14/04/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by political filmmaker Michael Cockerell. Plus Alan Johnson and Graham Stringer are in to discuss Jeremy Corbyn's speech on remaining in the EU.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 14/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:38.:00:40.

Jeremy Corbyn's made his first major intervention in the EU referendum

:00:41.:00:43.

campaign with the socialist case for staying in.

:00:44.:00:46.

The Labour leader still isn't the European Union's biggest fan,

:00:47.:00:50.

but he says his party overwhelmingly backs membership

:00:51.:00:52.

So will his intervention give a boost to the campaign to remain?

:00:53.:01:00.

The government's plans for expanding academy schools have run

:01:01.:01:03.

We'll ask one former Education Secretary if ministers

:01:04.:01:07.

Is being Chancellor the trickiest job in Whitehall?

:01:08.:01:14.

We've got the latest in our series looking at how to do

:01:15.:01:17.

And Ellie's been to meet the latest addition to the diplomatic corps -

:01:18.:01:24.

but like many experienced politicians, he's already

:01:25.:01:26.

Palmerston, what are your thoughts on Britain leaving the EU?

:01:27.:01:35.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

:01:36.:01:51.

of the programme today is the veteran documentary

:01:52.:01:53.

He's profiled leading political figures from Edward Heath onwards,

:01:54.:01:57.

and if it's worth talking about in Westminster or Whitehall,

:01:58.:01:59.

First today, let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:00.:02:07.

who this morning has been making the case for staying

:02:08.:02:09.

It's been a while coming and it wasn't exactly a passionate

:02:10.:02:15.

love-letter to the EU, with a series of caveats

:02:16.:02:18.

about the need for socialist reforms, but he argued

:02:19.:02:21.

that it was better to stay in and fight for change.

:02:22.:02:24.

Of course he voted against membership of the common market

:02:25.:02:27.

at the referendum in 1975, but we're told he's

:02:28.:02:29.

So will it give the In campaign a much-needed shot in the arm? This

:02:30.:02:42.

was Mr Corbyn speaking earlier. The move to hold this referendum

:02:43.:02:44.

more been more about managing divisions in the Conservative Party

:02:45.:02:47.

but it's now a crucial democratic opportunity for people

:02:48.:02:49.

to have their say on our country's future and the future

:02:50.:02:52.

of our continent as a whole. As Alan explained,

:02:53.:02:59.

the Labour Party's overwhelmingly for staying in because we believe

:03:00.:03:01.

the European Union has brought investment, jobs, and protection

:03:02.:03:05.

for workers, consumers and the environment and offers

:03:06.:03:09.

the best chance of meeting the challenges we face

:03:10.:03:12.

in the 21st-century. Labour is convinced that a vote

:03:13.:03:18.

to remain in is in the best Jeremy Corbyn there. Michael

:03:19.:03:31.

Cockerell you covered the 1975 referendum and many senior Labour

:03:32.:03:35.

politicians voted against membership of the EEC as it was then. Jeremy

:03:36.:03:41.

Corbyn has said he has been on a journey, are you convinced by his

:03:42.:03:46.

conversion? It has been a rapid conversion, he was talking about the

:03:47.:03:50.

EU as brutal last September, to do with Greece. Many of the people have

:03:51.:03:59.

made the journey the opposite way from 1975, people like Norman

:04:00.:04:02.

Tebbit, who were in favour of us staying in, becoming a great

:04:03.:04:08.

sceptic. He is doing an unusual journey. Clearly it was something I

:04:09.:04:13.

think when he became leader he thought that this was a battle he

:04:14.:04:20.

could not win. The whole of the Labour Party voted unanimously... He

:04:21.:04:24.

is doing it through gritted teeth? I am not sure there is absolute

:04:25.:04:29.

passion and conviction in this conversion but you do what you have

:04:30.:04:32.

to as a leader. I thought he made rather a good speech in the

:04:33.:04:38.

wonderful art deco building of Senate house, the headquarters of

:04:39.:04:43.

London University, and he made a speech with a number of clever jabs

:04:44.:04:48.

at David Cameron. It is ironic that number ten had been putting great

:04:49.:04:52.

store by this speech, hoping because of how the polls had tightened, that

:04:53.:04:57.

Jeremy Corbyn could help it swing their way so there are just as many

:04:58.:05:03.

people who are politically fluid into what they want and whose side

:05:04.:05:08.

they are on. We will talk more about how vital his role may

:05:09.:05:10.

Well, let's see now if Mr Corbyn has convinced one Labour Eurosceptic,

:05:11.:05:16.

the MP Graham Stringer, who's campaigning to leave the EU.

:05:17.:05:20.

Welcome to the show, are you disappointed with Jeremy Corbyn?

:05:21.:05:26.

Disappointed but not surprised. I have talked to him and it was clear

:05:27.:05:30.

he has decided as leader of the Labour Party to go in for party

:05:31.:05:36.

management and management of his relationships with the trade unions

:05:37.:05:40.

rather than his core beliefs. Every time I voted against these issues,

:05:41.:05:45.

he has been in the same lobby as I have been and I have no reason to

:05:46.:05:50.

believe he has changed his core beliefs. You don't think he has

:05:51.:05:53.

changed his mind coming is doing this through gritted teeth as I

:05:54.:05:59.

said? I think it is about 40 management, he can fight on only so

:06:00.:06:04.

many grounds. He is obviously in a minority in the parliamentary Labour

:06:05.:06:07.

Party, the majority of the trade unions take this view and I think he

:06:08.:06:11.

thinks it's not worth the fight but it's dangerous and a mistake, what

:06:12.:06:16.

he's doing. I don't think Labour voters, when you look at them and

:06:17.:06:20.

those who left us at the last two elections, many of them are

:06:21.:06:24.

Eurosceptic and I don't think they appreciate an argument that in

:06:25.:06:30.

effect support the Conservative Prime Minister and Chancellor who

:06:31.:06:34.

are one of the main causes of austerity and cuts in this country.

:06:35.:06:40.

If you feel he would be happier in your camp, could you have done more

:06:41.:06:45.

to persuade him to be true, as you believe, to his own beliefs? I think

:06:46.:06:52.

a situation he was in, he made that decision under pressure from the

:06:53.:06:56.

Shadow Cabinet and the trade union leadership just after he was

:06:57.:06:59.

elected. When he had made that decision, he was going to stick with

:07:00.:07:05.

it. I'm sad about it and I think it is a mistake for the Labour Party,

:07:06.:07:10.

which has a history of getting the European Union wrong. I tried to

:07:11.:07:18.

persuade Ed Miliband, if we had gone for a referendum at the last

:07:19.:07:22.

election, we would not have a majority Conservative government. We

:07:23.:07:26.

undoubtedly lost 12 or 14 seats because Labour voters who wanted a

:07:27.:07:29.

referendum voted Conservative or Ukip. Number ten are counting on

:07:30.:07:36.

Jeremy Corbyn, ironically from their perspective, to help them win this

:07:37.:07:40.

referendum because arguably trust in David Cameron has been damaged to

:07:41.:07:44.

some extent recently. Do you think he will be a forceful weapon for the

:07:45.:07:51.

remain side? I certainly hope not. I think the media know and most Labour

:07:52.:07:56.

voters know that his heart is not in this campaign. The argument he is

:07:57.:08:02.

using a quite poor about trying to form an anti-austerity allowance in

:08:03.:08:06.

Europe when the euro is one of the main causes of deflation and

:08:07.:08:12.

austerity across the continent which is causing huge unemployment. As he

:08:13.:08:16.

has said, brutality against the workers in Greece. That has a

:08:17.:08:21.

knock-on effect in this country. I think he will not persuade Labour

:08:22.:08:25.

voters to vote the support a Conservative Prime Minister and

:08:26.:08:30.

Chancellor of the Exchequer who are wreaking havoc on our communities.

:08:31.:08:34.

It is dangerous for the Labour Party to take this position. Thank you

:08:35.:08:35.

very much. Well, we're joined now

:08:36.:08:36.

by Chris Bryant, he's a former Europe minister and current member

:08:37.:08:38.

of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. Jeremy Corbyn's heart is not in this

:08:39.:08:50.

campaign, as Graham Stringer said, he will not be able to persuade

:08:51.:08:55.

Labour voters to vote for remain or come out at all. I couldn't hear

:08:56.:09:01.

much of what Graham was saying but I guessed what he was going to say

:09:02.:09:06.

anyway. Most of the Brexit campaigners have been desperate to

:09:07.:09:08.

be disappointed by anything that comes along. If you look at Jeremy

:09:09.:09:13.

Corbyn from 1975 until the leadership campaign, his track

:09:14.:09:18.

record has been sceptical of the EU and not a fan. The point I was going

:09:19.:09:28.

to make was that... The Labour Party movement has been phenomenally

:09:29.:09:31.

united on this issue apart from a couple of small trade unions, they

:09:32.:09:35.

nearly all have had vote and decided to stay in. Unison with the latest

:09:36.:09:39.

this week, people thought they might have gone the other way. Party

:09:40.:09:44.

policy has been united on this and for me, I have all been passionate

:09:45.:09:51.

pro-European, I come to that with the particular animus and I think

:09:52.:09:56.

Wales in particular, in my constituency, we would be stuff if

:09:57.:10:01.

we were to lose. I think it is important that Jeremy and other

:10:02.:10:06.

sceptics, historic and genuine sceptics, have been on a journey and

:10:07.:10:10.

changed their mind. I honestly think that people who come on TV and says

:10:11.:10:15.

Jeremy doesn't believe a word of this, I don't think that's Jeremy.

:10:16.:10:18.

He doesn't say things he doesn't believe, that is the reason he won

:10:19.:10:23.

the leadership of the Labour Party. If you look at what he has said

:10:24.:10:27.

until very recently, it does not sound authentic and it does not

:10:28.:10:31.

sound like this conversion is heartfelt. He voted against the

:10:32.:10:37.

Lisbon Treaty in two dozen eight, during the leadership campaign he

:10:38.:10:39.

refused to rule out campaign to leave the EU -- 2008. He talked

:10:40.:10:43.

about Greece as we heard from Michael Cockerell but what I'm

:10:44.:10:47.

saying is the journey... I understand, you think he's lying. I

:10:48.:10:55.

think it is unusual for the BBC to do that but I think we should

:10:56.:11:00.

take... We are using the facts of what he has said. Am I allowed to

:11:01.:11:07.

say anything? You accuse me of saying I don't believe him but some

:11:08.:11:11.

of your colleagues don't so how will it persuade Labour voters if some of

:11:12.:11:15.

your own party don't question we have been on the doorstep a great

:11:16.:11:19.

deal. In my constituency we have assembly elections for the Welsh

:11:20.:11:24.

assembly and a lot of Labour voters say, what do you think about the

:11:25.:11:29.

referendum, because they are genuinely uncertain. I think for

:11:30.:11:33.

some of them, be strong, passionate argument I would want to make about

:11:34.:11:37.

how we can tackle the big issues like climate change, international

:11:38.:11:43.

terrorism and crime and so want without being part of the EU, those

:11:44.:11:49.

carry weight with them but for some others it is Jeremy's version which

:11:50.:11:54.

is different. It is a different argument from mine but in the end it

:11:55.:11:58.

comes down to a simple thing which is on the Labour Party membership

:11:59.:12:03.

card, that we achieved far more by a common endeavour than by going it

:12:04.:12:07.

alone. Has he left it too late? If he is going to be so persuasive, it

:12:08.:12:12.

is late in the day, we only have ten more weeks. We have ten more weeks!

:12:13.:12:20.

To be honest, we are very focused on the assembly election in my

:12:21.:12:23.

constituency so much as I would like to talk about Europe every day until

:12:24.:12:30.

the 23rd of June because I feel very passionately about it, I think it is

:12:31.:12:33.

important you have all those different wings of the Labour Party

:12:34.:12:39.

barbed a tiny marginal element, arguing in favour of remaining in --

:12:40.:12:45.

apart from a tiny element. I don't like David Cameron, I would like to

:12:46.:12:49.

get rid of him as pie ministers tomorrow or last year but... --

:12:50.:12:55.

Prime Minister. I'm not sharing a platform or not it would come and

:12:56.:13:00.

making a different argument. When we came to power in 1997, one of the

:13:01.:13:04.

things felt strongly here was that we wanted to sign up to the social

:13:05.:13:08.

chapter. It doesn't quite exist in the same way now but it guaranteed

:13:09.:13:14.

workers rights, it enhanced LGBT writes, a whole series of things,

:13:15.:13:18.

and we did that in 1997 and the Tories have been trying to step

:13:19.:13:21.

aside from that and that is one of the reasons we want to stay in. How

:13:22.:13:27.

enthusiastic did you think Jeremy Corbyn sounded in that speech? Did

:13:28.:13:33.

you think it was full throttled enthusiasm and warmth? You have me

:13:34.:13:37.

on that because I was speaking in the House of Commons throughout the

:13:38.:13:40.

speech so I have not heard or even read the speech. I have books to

:13:41.:13:44.

Jeremy about this issue and I know he believes that Britain will

:13:45.:13:49.

achieve best and Labour constituencies will do best and the

:13:50.:13:53.

people that Labour wants to represent with the best if we remain

:13:54.:13:58.

in the European Union. In terms of the polls, which are very tight, and

:13:59.:14:02.

we know they can be wrong, you say there are ten weeks to go, if Jeremy

:14:03.:14:08.

Corbyn is going to save the day come do you expect to see him out between

:14:09.:14:15.

now and the 23rd of June, even ahead of assembly elections, campaigning

:14:16.:14:20.

vigorously for remain? He will be campaigning for In. When will we

:14:21.:14:24.

hear from him again? You clearly have a mindset on this, you clearly

:14:25.:14:29.

have a mindset. Why don't you just take him at his word? He has said he

:14:30.:14:34.

wants us to stay in, the whole of the Labour movement apart from a

:14:35.:14:37.

tiny proportion want us to stay in the European Union and we do so on

:14:38.:14:42.

Labour arguments, not Tory arguments. If you take a single

:14:43.:14:48.

issue on climate change. How can you possibly try to pretend this country

:14:49.:14:52.

is a hermetically sealed unit? How can you do it on international

:14:53.:14:57.

crime? The people campaigning to leave don't like the European Arrest

:14:58.:15:00.

Warrant... You're making the argument for staying in. So is

:15:01.:15:05.

Jeremy. I'm asking if you have full faith and trust? Yes, I have full

:15:06.:15:13.

faith and trust. Until recently he was hugely sceptical. I have not

:15:14.:15:16.

seen the whole speech, I talked to him before he made it, yesterday and

:15:17.:15:21.

the day before, he has described a journey he has been on and there are

:15:22.:15:25.

people in this country who are passionate like me and have -- have

:15:26.:15:30.

always been convinced but there are 19 to 25% of the population who are

:15:31.:15:35.

still wondering which way to go and I think Jeremy's voice will carry a

:15:36.:15:39.

great deal of weight with a significant proportion of those.

:15:40.:15:43.

Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will get the Labour vote out? Because now

:15:44.:15:51.

there are reports saying that will be the critical factor and could

:15:52.:15:56.

affect the result. It could well be the article factor but there's also

:15:57.:16:00.

another factor from his speech. Because he said were the reasons has

:16:01.:16:05.

changed his mind is because he now sees a reformed EU, if they can do

:16:06.:16:11.

it in the way he wants, as furthering the cause of socialism,

:16:12.:16:16.

so if you voted to stay in, you will further the cause of socialism and

:16:17.:16:20.

further Jeremy Corbyn's career, so it could actually be

:16:21.:16:25.

counter-productive. You get Labour votes but you switch off Tories and

:16:26.:16:32.

people who are inclined to vote for Ukip. That's always a difficulty in

:16:33.:16:35.

a referendum with people from different prodigal parties were

:16:36.:16:38.

different mindsets, coming with different arguments, but all I would

:16:39.:16:43.

say is, even the big prodigal parties, we know they are a

:16:44.:16:49.

coalition, the Tory parties, the first past the post system, but the

:16:50.:16:53.

truth is, a series of different parts if you like that are leading

:16:54.:16:57.

to the same conclusion and that's why I think Jeremy's speech today

:16:58.:17:01.

are so important because he's not, like me, I couldn't make my speech

:17:02.:17:07.

but we are saying the same thing and saying it to Labour voters. One

:17:08.:17:13.

thing about Jeremy and the speech. Not his body language but his

:17:14.:17:17.

clothes, he was clearly making a speech to the Labour Party because

:17:18.:17:22.

he was wearing his old light coloured cream jacket. You have just

:17:23.:17:26.

been elevated to our sartorial correspondence. Who are you speaking

:17:27.:17:34.

to today? I'm wearing a dark suit. Seeing as you accuse me of having a

:17:35.:17:39.

fixed mindset before this interview started, very unfairly, she said,

:17:40.:17:43.

why have anti-EU articles been deleted from Jeremy Corbyn's

:17:44.:17:49.

website? I have no idea. It's disappeared from this website. I

:17:50.:17:53.

have absolutely no idea and you know perfectly well I have no idea. I

:17:54.:17:57.

can't even challenge you on whether its true what not. I have absolutely

:17:58.:18:04.

no idea. Would you do that, delete things? There are things in my past

:18:05.:18:09.

I would love to delete I'm simply not going to go there. What a shame

:18:10.:18:15.

we don't have time to do that. The reasons he's deleting it is because

:18:16.:18:21.

solidarity with David Cameron, David Cameron before the last election

:18:22.:18:24.

deleted all his speeches and articles up until 2014. We have

:18:25.:18:31.

reached a political balance. We would be stuffed as a country,

:18:32.:18:35.

cutting off our noses to spite our face. Finally I've persuaded you.

:18:36.:18:39.

Thank you, Chris. The question for today is what has

:18:40.:18:41.

Jacob Rees-Mogg auctioned off b) A signed photo of him

:18:42.:18:45.

and Margaret Thatcher. d) Latin lessons given

:18:46.:18:53.

by Rees-Mogg himself. At the end of the show Michael

:18:54.:19:02.

will give us the correct answer. Chris Bryant will go for all of

:19:03.:19:06.

those, I think. Without a Conservative majority

:19:07.:19:09.

in the House of Lords, the government is having a hard time

:19:10.:19:11.

getting some major pieces of Last night the Housing Bill,

:19:12.:19:14.

which is meant to introduce several manifesto commitments,

:19:15.:19:18.

suffered the latest in a series of upsets at the hand

:19:19.:19:20.

of Labour, Liberal Democrat The wide-ranging bill will introduce

:19:21.:19:22.

starter homes for first time buyers at discounts of 20%,

:19:23.:19:29.

force councils to build more houses, makes high earners pay more

:19:30.:19:35.

for their social tenancy, and loosen planning rules

:19:36.:19:38.

for brownfield land. The first of this week's defeats

:19:39.:19:42.

would make starter home owners repay a proportion

:19:43.:19:45.

of their discount when they sell up, to make sure funding

:19:46.:19:49.

is still available to properties The second defeat stops

:19:50.:19:52.

the government allowing Whitehall to set the targets for the number

:19:53.:19:57.

of homes required rather And last night a third defeat

:19:58.:20:01.

ensured that any payment to the Treasury from the forced sale

:20:02.:20:06.

of council homes would be subject to parliamentary

:20:07.:20:10.

scrutiny and approval. The government was forced to make

:20:11.:20:13.

further concessions, promising to reflect on an amendment

:20:14.:20:16.

that ensures each high-value home sold off is replaced like-for-like,

:20:17.:20:20.

accepting an amendment that protects rural areas from the forced sale

:20:21.:20:24.

of council homes and providing additional safeguards

:20:25.:20:28.

over bad landlords. There are three more days of debate,

:20:29.:20:33.

starting next week. Labour have promised further

:20:34.:20:36.

opposition, describing the Bill as "half baked",

:20:37.:20:39.

"extreme" and "not fit for purpose". We did ask to speak to a minister

:20:40.:20:43.

about their Housing Plans However we are joined

:20:44.:20:46.

by Bob Kerslake, he's a crossbench peer and president

:20:47.:20:50.

of the Local Government Association and chairman of the Peabody

:20:51.:20:56.

housing association. And we're joined

:20:57.:20:59.

by Andrew Griffiths. He's a Conservative MP

:21:00.:21:02.

and was on the committee looking Welcome to you both. Do you accept

:21:03.:21:15.

criticism from labour that this bill is not fit for purpose? Not at all.

:21:16.:21:20.

This is a comprehensive package that will set out what we said we would

:21:21.:21:26.

do in our manifesto. This is about increasing homeownership, meeting

:21:27.:21:31.

the aspirations of people across the country, survey after survey says

:21:32.:21:38.

86-88% of people want to own their own homes. They aspire to be a

:21:39.:21:41.

homeowner. What has happened to home ownership in the last few years? For

:21:42.:21:47.

a long period of time, home ownership has been falling. I'm

:21:48.:21:50.

pleased to say actually we have been able to hold to that and it is now

:21:51.:21:54.

stable. Clearly, we need to do more. That was under Coalition Government

:21:55.:21:59.

and Tory governments. My frustration is what we're seeing in the House of

:22:00.:22:03.

Lords at the moment, wealthy people who own their own homes, trying to

:22:04.:22:06.

prevent other people from getting on the housing ladder. Is that what you

:22:07.:22:12.

are doing? Not at all. I'm in favour of homeownership. But the way to

:22:13.:22:15.

more homeownership is to build more houses. That is the basic thing. We

:22:16.:22:22.

need to be doubling the amount of houses we build an essentially,

:22:23.:22:26.

that's why homeownership is fallen because... The bill is not stopping

:22:27.:22:30.

homes being built, is it? It's helping in some respects but it is

:22:31.:22:36.

really problematic, it's helping some people access homeownership, at

:22:37.:22:42.

the expense of people who come at the moment, could never afford to

:22:43.:22:45.

buy and desperately need affordable rented accommodation. It helps one

:22:46.:22:51.

group at the expense of another and that's where the concerns are most

:22:52.:22:57.

strong. Because we cannot shut out people on low incomes from the

:22:58.:23:01.

opportunity of decent housing. Isn't that the sort of problem, the crux

:23:02.:23:05.

of the criticism which has come about this bill, the priorities are

:23:06.:23:10.

wrong? Nobody would disagree broadly with the principle of people wanting

:23:11.:23:13.

to own their own homes but not if means whole sections of the

:23:14.:23:17.

population are still going to be in substandard housing, will never be

:23:18.:23:21.

able to afford own home or private rents are going to continue to soar

:23:22.:23:25.

and they could be kicked out? What this bill does is address all of

:23:26.:23:32.

those things. It speeds up the ability to build homes, it makes

:23:33.:23:36.

homes more affordable for first-time buyers particularly. What rate are

:23:37.:23:42.

we talking about? ?450,000 in some cases, that's not affordable. That

:23:43.:23:48.

is a cap, so in a pace like my constituency, Burton, starter home

:23:49.:23:53.

would be ?100,000 so with a 20% discount, that would be about

:23:54.:23:57.

?80,000. That is affordable to many people. What's wrong with that? The

:23:58.:24:04.

starter home is now being built at the expense of what was previously

:24:05.:24:09.

being built, affordable rented, and the other thing the Lords have not

:24:10.:24:15.

liked is the top-down centralised nature of the way things are being

:24:16.:24:20.

done. So a percentage of every single site, 20%... On average,

:24:21.:24:27.

affordable housing has been 22%, you don't need to be a great

:24:28.:24:31.

mathematician to see that this will displace people. We need starter

:24:32.:24:35.

homes, actually. What we must not do was have one group helped at the

:24:36.:24:40.

expense of another. People really understand that. It is clear from

:24:41.:24:46.

the opposition and concession after concession you had to make, this

:24:47.:24:50.

bill was not properly scrutinised and there is a wealth of opposition

:24:51.:24:53.

and powerful arguments being made against aspects of this bill and

:24:54.:24:58.

that was your failure. Not personally, but you didn't

:24:59.:25:01.

scrutinise before it went into the House of Lords. That's simply not

:25:02.:25:05.

true. There has been concession after concession. Of course, we are

:25:06.:25:09.

working with people who have concerns over the bill to find

:25:10.:25:12.

something which works for everybody, but this was thoroughly scrutinised.

:25:13.:25:22.

We sat until almost 2am. Time isn't necessarily the amount of time...

:25:23.:25:27.

Let me coming there. I can't let that point ago. If you scrutinised,

:25:28.:25:31.

I don't know what you did because this is a framework Bill. The

:25:32.:25:36.

massive details simply not available. That's what the Lords

:25:37.:25:43.

have got so upset about. In my view, we have a great Secretary of State

:25:44.:25:49.

who is wanting to address the issues but we can't get away from the fact

:25:50.:25:53.

that this bill was simply not ready and much of the frustration in the

:25:54.:25:58.

Lords, on all sides, not just Labour and the Lib Dems, we haven't had the

:25:59.:26:04.

essential details with which to make the decisions, so that's another big

:26:05.:26:08.

issue, fairness is one of the lack of readiness is another. Let's pick

:26:09.:26:13.

up on those issues because the government has now promised to

:26:14.:26:15.

rethink this idea and make an amendment on the one like-for-like

:26:16.:26:20.

replacement for each council home sold under for sale, which you

:26:21.:26:23.

weren't going to do beforehand, so that would have meant fewer council

:26:24.:26:26.

homes making payments to the Secretary of State is from the

:26:27.:26:34.

forced sale of council homes will now be having a council approval.

:26:35.:26:37.

That should have been thought about. We said throughout the bill we were

:26:38.:26:41.

going to do one-for-one replacements. In fact, in London, we

:26:42.:26:47.

are doing two for one. I beg your pardon... Let me make my point.

:26:48.:26:52.

We've said from the very beginning we going to do one for one. Under

:26:53.:26:58.

the new scheme, we are doing far in excess of that. We have committed to

:26:59.:27:03.

doing two for one in London because they recognise the pressure on

:27:04.:27:06.

London housing. All we have done with this concession is part of that

:27:07.:27:10.

on the face of the Bill. What I would say about social housing,

:27:11.:27:15.

local authorities have in their headroom ?3.2 billion to go and

:27:16.:27:19.

build social housing. We would encourage them to do that. The

:27:20.:27:24.

previous Coalition Government Biltmore council housing in its

:27:25.:27:33.

period -- Biltmore. This is a government delivering on social

:27:34.:27:35.

housing. Let me ask about the preparation and scrutiny because do

:27:36.:27:39.

not have to accept some of the blame for this bill being described as

:27:40.:27:42.

half baked because you were overseeing housing policy admittedly

:27:43.:27:48.

last year at the committee 's garment? Not this bill. This is a

:27:49.:27:56.

post-election bill I had no part of. I thought was announced in 2014 you

:27:57.:28:01.

were the permanent secretary. We have to differ on that point. Is he

:28:02.:28:08.

right, though? What was announced in 2014 was a different policy, starter

:28:09.:28:13.

homes, exception brown field sites, but it became during the election

:28:14.:28:18.

process, a replacement for affordable renting and that's where

:28:19.:28:21.

the problems of started. Completely different project. Let me just deal

:28:22.:28:25.

with this question raised about the scrutiny of the Bill. It really has

:28:26.:28:31.

not have the proper analysis and we have not had the detail on it. I

:28:32.:28:36.

think that is a very big issue. You have got to sit alongside other

:28:37.:28:39.

policies so, in future, instead of secure tenancies for those who live

:28:40.:28:44.

in social rented, they will be given a maximum five years, these are big

:28:45.:28:48.

issues. It will impact on ordinary people. There are priorities and the

:28:49.:28:53.

government made clear its priorities. Before the election with

:28:54.:28:58.

a manifesto. There has been some criticism of your role and whether

:28:59.:29:02.

there is a question of a conflict-of-interest because you are

:29:03.:29:06.

chairman of the Peabody Housing Association and one of the

:29:07.:29:11.

criticisms made is extending the right to buy to those tenants. Do

:29:12.:29:14.

you accept that? The housing associations have done a deal with

:29:15.:29:19.

governments so if this is just about my role with Peabody I could

:29:20.:29:25.

reasonably say a deal has been done. My deal with local authorities and

:29:26.:29:30.

the impact on them, that is more my role in local government, I'm most

:29:31.:29:37.

concerned about the impact on the opportunity for ordinary low income

:29:38.:29:40.

people to access the party and a home. That's what bothers me. Do you

:29:41.:29:47.

accept there will be more opposition to this bill? No, before the House

:29:48.:29:53.

of Commons another strong majority. You don't have a majority House of

:29:54.:29:58.

Lords. Exactly right and it's frustrating when manifesto

:29:59.:30:01.

commitment the general public voted for being blocked by the unelected

:30:02.:30:05.

house. I'm going to have to finish there unfortunately. We are seeking

:30:06.:30:11.

to revise it and amend it. Absolutely right. Maybe we'll have

:30:12.:30:15.

you both back on again at the next stage. You are booked!

:30:16.:30:17.

The leader of the SNP in the Commons, where of course

:30:18.:30:20.

the party is the third largest group, used his regular question

:30:21.:30:22.

to the Prime Minister yesterday to challenge the government's

:30:23.:30:24.

efforts to crack down on tax avoidance.

:30:25.:30:26.

To make his point, Angus Robertson deployed a striking statistic.

:30:27.:30:28.

3,250 DWP staff have been specifically investigating benefit

:30:29.:30:33.

fraud whilst only 300 HMRC staff have been systematically

:30:34.:30:36.

I will look carefully at his statistics but they sound

:30:37.:30:50.

So was the Prime Minister right to question the statistic?

:30:51.:30:56.

With us to shed some light on the matter is Will Moy,

:30:57.:31:01.

Was Angus Robertson correct with his statistic? He had a point but not as

:31:02.:31:15.

big as the point he was trying to make with it. The Prime Minister

:31:16.:31:20.

went on to say that there were 26,000 people in HMRC dealing with

:31:21.:31:24.

compliance and enforcement and that is true but Angus Robertson was

:31:25.:31:29.

focused on rich individuals, not Starbucks and the rest of it, he was

:31:30.:31:35.

focusing on the rich people. There are more than 3500 people dealing

:31:36.:31:40.

with and that fraud at the DWP and the nearest comparable figure is 700

:31:41.:31:45.

people in HMRC dealing with the tax affairs of people earning more than

:31:46.:31:50.

150,000 a year and have more than ?1 million to their name. Where did he

:31:51.:31:56.

get the statistic from? It was not correct, the point was being made

:31:57.:31:59.

but it was not accurate so where did he get it from? His broad point that

:32:00.:32:04.

there were more people working directly on benefit fraud and tax

:32:05.:32:09.

evasion among individual rich people is correct but his figures were

:32:10.:32:16.

wrong. His DWP figures were slightly out of date and with HMRC, he has

:32:17.:32:21.

found the 300 people dealing with people who have between one million

:32:22.:32:25.

and ?20 million to their name, there are another 400 people dealing with

:32:26.:32:30.

high net worth individuals, more than ?20 million to their name so

:32:31.:32:34.

combined there are 700 people dealing with what you might call the

:32:35.:32:38.

super-rich. I understand you put this to the SNP, what was their

:32:39.:32:42.

response? I have not heard back on the detail. I don't know what they

:32:43.:32:48.

would say about the figures. The 300 he is using it a fair figure, it is

:32:49.:32:55.

just a subset of the total. The DWP figure is just a little out of date.

:32:56.:32:59.

We are expecting a response so we will bring it to viewers tomorrow.

:33:00.:33:04.

Stay with us. The impact of statistics like that can be powerful

:33:05.:33:09.

and making a moral equivalent judgment that there are ten times

:33:10.:33:13.

more staff dealing with the poorest in society than super-rich evading

:33:14.:33:17.

their taxes so how important is it to be accurate? It is important if

:33:18.:33:24.

you can be found out within the next day or even the same day on social

:33:25.:33:31.

media. People can Google it themselves quickly and say he has

:33:32.:33:34.

got it wrong so it is very important, especially... He was not

:33:35.:33:41.

actually making a partisan political point, it was more a Whitehall

:33:42.:33:46.

point. But it was interesting what has been just said. It was the

:33:47.:33:53.

famous Tory Victorian by Minister Disraeli who said there are lies,

:33:54.:33:59.

dammed lies and statistics. It is a favourite phrase of politicians and

:34:00.:34:02.

journalists alike! Will Moy, thank you very much.

:34:03.:34:04.

Now, the Chancellor George Osborne is often spoken of as a future

:34:05.:34:15.

Conservative leader, but in a YouGov poll in this morning's

:34:16.:34:18.

Times found that in a straight choice between Mr Osborne

:34:19.:34:20.

and Jeremy Corbyn for Prime Minister, Mr Corbyn

:34:21.:34:22.

It's perhaps a reminder that the job of Chancellor is a tricky one

:34:23.:34:27.

at the best of times, and can easily finish

:34:28.:34:29.

Here's Giles Dilnot with the latest in our series, so you want to be

:34:30.:34:33.

Could you be responsible for the entire British economy,

:34:34.:34:39.

how much we spend, how much tax we collect and how much money every

:34:40.:34:43.

So, you want to be Chancellor of the Exchequer.

:34:44.:34:53.

The fun of the Treasury is that you are right at the heart

:34:54.:34:56.

of government so if you are a real political addict, I think

:34:57.:34:59.

the Treasury is the one you want to go to.

:35:00.:35:03.

The Treasury is the most disliked department in Whitehall

:35:04.:35:05.

Within three months of me being there we had the first run

:35:06.:35:11.

on a bank for over a century and if the world is in meltdown,

:35:12.:35:14.

running around like Corporal Jones doesn't really help that much.

:35:15.:35:17.

You should never panic until it is absolutely

:35:18.:35:19.

That was the only job I wanted, to be Chancellor.

:35:20.:35:26.

It was one I felt that everything I had done in my previous career

:35:27.:35:29.

It is also, at any time, probably the most important

:35:30.:35:34.

Jill Rutter, who was a senior civil servant and now

:35:35.:35:41.

at the Institute for Government, agrees being Chancellor

:35:42.:35:43.

is a powerful position but it's more complex than that.

:35:44.:35:45.

The unique thing about being Chancellor is you are likely to get

:35:46.:35:48.

You will see yourself as the number two in government but actually

:35:49.:35:53.

you can call on the resource and the big battalions

:35:54.:35:56.

of the Treasury so it's quite often possible for you to outgun the Prime

:35:57.:35:59.

The hidden secret about the Treasury is actually, if the economy

:36:00.:36:03.

is going OK, there is not much you have to do so one

:36:04.:36:07.

of your choices is what you do with all that spare time,

:36:08.:36:09.

Totally different, though, if you find yourself

:36:10.:36:14.

in the middle of a crisis when it is all hands on deck,

:36:15.:36:17.

People think you are sort of driving a car and you press

:36:18.:36:22.

Actually it is much more complicated than that.

:36:23.:36:28.

You are dealing with the consequences, one, of things

:36:29.:36:30.

totally beyond your control, two, insofar as decisions effect

:36:31.:36:34.

the economy, you're dealing with the consequences of decisions

:36:35.:36:38.

made probably 18 months, two years before.

:36:39.:36:44.

Nigel, now Lord, Lawson, alongside his Prime Minister,

:36:45.:36:46.

Margaret Thatcher, pushed through huge economic changes

:36:47.:36:49.

in the 1980s but even he admits you can't know it is going to work.

:36:50.:36:58.

When you become Chancellor, you are conscious of the fact

:36:59.:37:04.

that it is you who has to take the decisions and in real

:37:05.:37:07.

life, you never know for sure that the decisions

:37:08.:37:09.

You believe they are, you think them through very carefully,

:37:10.:37:16.

but in this world you can never have absolute certainty.

:37:17.:37:20.

For Ken Clarke, however you dress it up, how successful anyone has been

:37:21.:37:23.

at driving the economy is something of a moot point.

:37:24.:37:25.

It is a combination of growth and low inflation, that is the holy

:37:26.:37:29.

And absolutely nobody has delivered it since the war for anything other

:37:30.:37:37.

The classic British pattern has always been to make a complete

:37:38.:37:45.

Horlicks of the thing and when it finally collapsed,

:37:46.:37:47.

you find yourself in a sterling crisis, you are forced to devalue

:37:48.:37:50.

and the Chancellor is sacked or moved sideways or you move

:37:51.:37:53.

The Bank of England would not have lent us any money

:37:54.:37:58.

if we were in an unstable financial position.

:37:59.:38:01.

Alistair Darling had to face just such a calamity and when it came,

:38:02.:38:04.

the clock was ticking faster than we might imagine.

:38:05.:38:08.

When things get out of control and people are panicking,

:38:09.:38:10.

that is when governments start to shake.

:38:11.:38:12.

I received a call from the then chairman of RBS to say

:38:13.:38:16.

that the bank, RBS, was haemorrhaging money.

:38:17.:38:20.

We did have a rescue plan ready to go.

:38:21.:38:24.

He said, well, maybe two or three hours.

:38:25.:38:26.

That was when it struck me that whatever decision we took,

:38:27.:38:29.

and we had to take it within minutes, would make

:38:30.:38:31.

a profound difference, never mind to the government's

:38:32.:38:35.

fortunes, but frankly to the country because if RBS had gone down,

:38:36.:38:38.

the cash machines would have gone off, the drawers would have closed

:38:39.:38:40.

and every other bank would have come down with it.

:38:41.:38:43.

Crises aside, one event, for a Chancellor, is fixed

:38:44.:38:47.

I got someone to help me write a speech because you have to be

:38:48.:38:57.

a bit careful of the language you use.

:38:58.:38:59.

I couldn't do my usual thing of getting up with a few notes

:39:00.:39:02.

because I would suddenly change the markets by using

:39:03.:39:06.

And on budget day I used to go out to enjoy it.

:39:07.:39:12.

I had absolutely worked God knows what hours

:39:13.:39:14.

for the previous six months, the entire department was pretty

:39:15.:39:16.

Budget day, you are presenting it, you are selling it, the British

:39:17.:39:20.

turn their annual budget into a bit of a circus for some bizarre reason.

:39:21.:39:24.

All the waving the red box about, drinking the whiskey off

:39:25.:39:30.

Lord Lawson says the budget razzmatazz may seem odd

:39:31.:39:37.

A lot of people think how antiquated and stupid all this ritual

:39:38.:39:45.

is but in fact it is very good for one day of the year to be able

:39:46.:39:49.

to focus the minds of the people on not just the budget measures

:39:50.:39:52.

but also on the economic policy of which they are a part.

:39:53.:39:55.

Delivering the budget, controlling the money,

:39:56.:40:00.

To Norman Lamont, that makes a Chancellor a cut

:40:01.:40:07.

If I may say something that will annoy some people,

:40:08.:40:14.

I think it is probably much more demanding being Chancellor

:40:15.:40:17.

of the Exchequer or Prime Minister than it is Foreign Secretary.

:40:18.:40:20.

The Foreign Secretary won't like me saying that

:40:21.:40:25.

but I remember Jim Callaghan, who was both Chancellor

:40:26.:40:27.

and Foreign Secretary, said the latter was a doddle.

:40:28.:40:29.

It seems the price to be paid for being in charge of the money

:40:30.:40:33.

is that your political capital is spent managing it

:40:34.:40:35.

all and your stock as a politician ultimately rises or falls on how

:40:36.:40:38.

Most memorable Chancellor for you in recent times? I think Roy Jenkins

:40:39.:40:55.

with a pretty powerful Chancellor because he inherited the aftermath

:40:56.:41:02.

of the devaluation when Jim Callaghan was moved to the Home

:41:03.:41:06.

Office and they swapped jobs and the economy was in a real mess. Another

:41:07.:41:12.

one is Denis Healy, he had the IMF coming... A begging bowl! He said,

:41:13.:41:20.

of all the jobs he did, it was the only one that kept him awake at

:41:21.:41:25.

night. The amount of work, sheer hard slog you had to do in that time

:41:26.:41:31.

was unbelievable he said. And the other way around, I remember Mrs

:41:32.:41:37.

Thatcher said to Nigel Lawson, Nigel, you must get your hair cut,

:41:38.:41:42.

the markets won't trust a long-haired Chancellor! It might

:41:43.:41:48.

take more than a haircut! I asked Ken Clarke about the Treasury, this

:41:49.:41:55.

famous secret institution and he said, it was full of first-class

:41:56.:42:00.

brains from Oxford and Cambridge, we had these wonderful debates like all

:42:01.:42:09.

souls College in Oxford, brilliantly argued, brilliantly articulate and

:42:10.:42:13.

totally out of touch with the real world. That is very reassuring when

:42:14.:42:19.

they are running the country! What about the chances of the top job?

:42:20.:42:26.

Let's look at George Osborne, are you selling shares in brand Osborne

:42:27.:42:31.

at the moment? The chances for a top job for a Chancellor have not been

:42:32.:42:36.

very good. There have been a couple. John Major, Gordon Brown, Jim

:42:37.:42:43.

Callaghan. He did all the great offices of state. Winston Churchill

:42:44.:42:49.

in the 1920s. You don't necessarily get the job, it is slightly like the

:42:50.:42:58.

fly on the oxcart we'll come if the economy is going welcome the flight

:42:59.:43:02.

thinks he is pushing the oxcart. So what are the chances for George

:43:03.:43:08.

Osborne? Ask me that on the 24th of June because everything in the

:43:09.:43:11.

kaleidoscope of British politics will become a little clearer. You

:43:12.:43:14.

have a get out of jail free card! The Government yesterday

:43:15.:43:16.

defended its plan to force every school in England to become

:43:17.:43:19.

an academy in the face of criticism from both the Labour Party

:43:20.:43:21.

and its own backbenchers. The proposal has led to teachers

:43:22.:43:24.

calling for a one-day strike and the Local Government Association

:43:25.:43:28.

has said the move defies reason. Let's have a look at some of the

:43:29.:43:31.

debate from the Commons yesterday. The Government's plan has been met

:43:32.:43:40.

with such concern even by the very school leaders they claim to be

:43:41.:43:43.

supporting because it is a bad It is yet another policy from this

:43:44.:43:46.

government that obsesses with school The academies programme

:43:47.:43:51.

takes our core Conservative belief that public services should be run

:43:52.:43:56.

by front-line professionals. That means heads, teachers

:43:57.:43:59.

and governors running our schools. International evidence shows

:44:00.:44:02.

that the autonomy of schools is linked to improved performance

:44:03.:44:04.

and school accountability As a Conservative, I also believe

:44:05.:44:08.

in choice so could she outline to me the downside of allowing academies

:44:09.:44:19.

or schools to migrate organically, if they choose to, to academy

:44:20.:44:23.

status, rather than imposing a compulsory and arbitrary

:44:24.:44:25.

Not one person there has had the courage to stand up and say

:44:26.:44:32.

there is fundamentally something totally inaccurate in the motion

:44:33.:44:36.

today, claiming that she and our government are trying to ban

:44:37.:44:39.

the role of parents on governing bodies in schools.

:44:40.:44:43.

Every single secondary school in my constituency is an Academy

:44:44.:44:45.

and they all have parents on governing bodies.

:44:46.:44:48.

So can we please have a compromise at the end of this process

:44:49.:44:51.

by which county councils will not necessarily be forced to give up

:44:52.:44:54.

control of their small primary schools?

:44:55.:44:56.

It is essential in rural areas that we keep them open.

:44:57.:44:59.

I know she wants to proceed in a compromise not forcing

:45:00.:45:02.

Call me old-fashioned but I'm of the view that if you've got

:45:03.:45:06.

a well governed school running well, just leave it alone and let it

:45:07.:45:09.

Joining us now is former Education Secretary, Lord Baker.

:45:10.:45:24.

Welcomed with the show. Let's pick up on that last point. If it ain't

:45:25.:45:31.

broke, why not leave schools if they are doing fine under local authority

:45:32.:45:38.

control? In the light of the debate yesterday, I thought Vicky Morgan

:45:39.:45:42.

will be taking soundings amongst her backbenchers. I think she will

:45:43.:45:45.

listen to their concerns to see how she can meet them. I'm not against

:45:46.:45:51.

it. You are a big fan of them. In the 1980s I said at the first 16

:45:52.:45:57.

schools technology colleges but I did it slowly. You constantly make a

:45:58.:46:01.

school become independent unless the headmaster is capable of running it.

:46:02.:46:06.

With a budget, appointing staff, buying his own equipment, it takes a

:46:07.:46:09.

lot of time to get into that, so I believe in the inevitability of

:46:10.:46:14.

gradual loss. If the policy wrong, imposing it on schools? I think that

:46:15.:46:20.

will be modified to some extent. How do you do that without just having

:46:21.:46:25.

to retreat completely? The way to do it is to coax them because when

:46:26.:46:31.

Labour left office, the coalition started in 2010, there were 200

:46:32.:46:35.

academies and now there are 4700. The law has not been changed. People

:46:36.:46:41.

had seen the advantages. In some cases, a well-run Academy can

:46:42.:46:45.

improve basic standards of schools, so I would let that processed,

:46:46.:46:49.

generate that more actively, as it were, and the rot problems of

:46:50.:46:53.

course. Like small rural primary schools. I would let it alone. I'm

:46:54.:47:01.

in favour of academies. I would encourage more of their development.

:47:02.:47:06.

The school I'm setting up are technically all academies,

:47:07.:47:11.

Independent. Do you think it is not conservative to force and impose

:47:12.:47:16.

this, when you should give people choice? At the end of the day, I

:47:17.:47:24.

think there are great problems which are now so many academies, you got

:47:25.:47:28.

to have some intermediate bodies between the departments of the

:47:29.:47:33.

academies, because the department could not run 24,000 schools. It

:47:34.:47:36.

could not even run one school and that's why the Academy trust... It

:47:37.:47:42.

would make it less central in that sense but do you feel the

:47:43.:47:45.

government's intention to remove the obligation to keep parent governors

:47:46.:47:51.

is also misguided? I do think so because I think parent governors at

:47:52.:47:58.

a great deal. You heard the MP from Gloucester saying exactly the same.

:47:59.:48:02.

All his schools are academies in his area. With parent governors on it. A

:48:03.:48:07.

parent governor is part of the local community. Certainly my colleges

:48:08.:48:12.

have parent governors. You would like that bit too dropped? Yes,

:48:13.:48:18.

modified. A lot of modification on this policy. Do you accept by

:48:19.:48:23.

literally renaming a school, making it an Academy, it doesn't

:48:24.:48:28.

necessarily make it a good school, does it? It's not a question of

:48:29.:48:33.

names. An Academy is good but would be better if the managing team, the

:48:34.:48:37.

head and the governing body, are determined to make it better and

:48:38.:48:41.

know how to do it. That's why I believe the inevitability of gradual

:48:42.:48:46.

as is the way to do it. You have to train people, governing bodies,

:48:47.:48:50.

Headmasters, in this, so they understand the complexity of running

:48:51.:48:54.

a school. You can't change most schools easily into an Academy

:48:55.:48:59.

because most complex area is the finance. The sustainability of

:49:00.:49:03.

financing. It's very, very, located. Were you surprised by the number of

:49:04.:49:09.

Conservative backbenchers who criticise this policy? No, MPs take

:49:10.:49:15.

a great interest in education. They go to schools, see the parents and

:49:16.:49:19.

children and are very involved. Do you think those are showing more

:49:20.:49:23.

rebellion in the Conservative backbenchers? Some of them are

:49:24.:49:26.

rebelling any case about the referendum. Do you think that has

:49:27.:49:31.

allowed them to be a little more vocal? It is an emotive force. I'm

:49:32.:49:38.

interested in Ken Baker talking about the inevitability of gradual

:49:39.:49:44.

loss, because that's the famous Roman general, fabulous, after whom

:49:45.:49:49.

the Fabian Society, when I strike, I strike hard, the inevitability of

:49:50.:49:55.

it. I was also struck by how partisan this whole debate about

:49:56.:49:58.

education is. If you think about going back to when Kenneth was

:49:59.:50:04.

Education Secretary and subsequently Tony Blair wanted to make education

:50:05.:50:10.

one of his issues, he said education, education, education. The

:50:11.:50:16.

following week, John Major was so worried about that, he said, on this

:50:17.:50:20.

platform last week, Tony Blair said his priority was education,

:50:21.:50:26.

education, education. Well, they are my three priorities for government

:50:27.:50:32.

but not necessarily in that order. That's quite a good joke. Do you

:50:33.:50:39.

remember that? I would love to take education out of politics. Really?

:50:40.:50:45.

Yes, the colleges I'm setting up are supported by all three parties and I

:50:46.:50:50.

was conscious to get Labour to supported and the Liberals because

:50:51.:50:55.

those are the changes which survive and our colleges will survive. I

:50:56.:50:59.

think teachers might sign up to it being taken out of politics. They

:51:00.:51:06.

hate all that tinkering. And the unions. Some teachers are very

:51:07.:51:10.

politicised, no doubt about that. Thank you.

:51:11.:51:11.

Now, we often talk about moments of political theatre or high

:51:12.:51:14.

drama at Westminster, but next week it will be playing

:51:15.:51:16.

In what's claimed to be the first ever performance of a Shakespeare

:51:17.:51:20.

play in the Houses of Parliament, members of the public

:51:21.:51:23.

are being invited in to watch a new production of this history

:51:24.:51:26.

play Richard II, Shakespeare's story of power and plotting

:51:27.:51:28.

This version has been reworked as a modern

:51:29.:51:31.

Westminster power struggle, but let's have a listen

:51:32.:51:33.

to the play's most famous speech, as performed by John Gielgud.

:51:34.:51:36.

This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

:51:37.:51:41.

This nurse, this teeming womb of royal kings,

:51:42.:51:45.

feared by their breed and famous by their birth, renowned

:51:46.:51:49.

for their deeds as far from home, for Christian service and true

:51:50.:51:52.

chivalry, as is the sepulchre in stubborn Jewry, of the world's

:51:53.:51:56.

This land of such dear souls, this dear, dear land,

:51:57.:52:07.

dear for her reputation through the world.

:52:08.:52:15.

Well, we're joined now the co-directors of the play,

:52:16.:52:19.

Sorry, I was listening to it so intently. You got a lot to live up

:52:20.:52:28.

to. Yes, it's one of Shakespeare's best plays and we hope to do it

:52:29.:52:33.

justice. How is it a modern take? We do a lot of work with Shakespeare in

:52:34.:52:37.

schools around the country with our theatre company and we find that

:52:38.:52:41.

these plays, when done right, they do connect and engage with all

:52:42.:52:45.

generations and transcend the generations in society. Amazingly,

:52:46.:52:53.

Richard II and his history plays are about society, about power, who has

:52:54.:52:58.

it, who is losing it, and in a sense, these plays speak to

:52:59.:53:03.

politics. They are relevant for today. Absolutely, it's a power

:53:04.:53:07.

struggle. A power struggle between someone who believes he deserves to

:53:08.:53:10.

be king and someone else who believes they would be a better

:53:11.:53:14.

leader than the one currently in power. Why do you decide to staged

:53:15.:53:18.

in the House of Commons? We felt, when we found that the rules had

:53:19.:53:22.

changed recently to allow the public to apply to put on events in the

:53:23.:53:26.

House of Commons, we thought what better way to commemorate the

:53:27.:53:30.

anniversary of Shakespeare's death to literally put one of his greatest

:53:31.:53:34.

political thrillers at the centre of national politics. What do you think

:53:35.:53:37.

it will add to the atmosphere? I think it would give it an immediacy.

:53:38.:53:41.

We are doing it in the members dining room off the Central Lobby

:53:42.:53:44.

but in the Commons and the Lords, and it feels like the type of room

:53:45.:53:50.

where plots are made. Skulduggery goes on! That room is amazing. How

:53:51.:53:56.

have you adapted it and made it relevant and resonate for younger

:53:57.:54:01.

audiences? It's still very much Shakespeare's play, written entirely

:54:02.:54:05.

in his verse, the changes we have made have been more to follow

:54:06.:54:08.

through the lines of history from the settings Shakespeare had. To

:54:09.:54:14.

modern political landscapes, so for example, there was a joust

:54:15.:54:18.

originally which we thought what would be the modern equivalent of

:54:19.:54:21.

that and it would be a TV debate, a public debate. Who is in your joust?

:54:22.:54:29.

Bolingbroke, the charismatic Challenger and Thomas Mowbray, who

:54:30.:54:32.

has some questions to answer about a mysterious political death. You have

:54:33.:54:37.

filled so often in the Houses of Parliament when they finally let you

:54:38.:54:42.

in. How do you think this will work? Are you pleased this is the sort of

:54:43.:54:47.

cultural activity being staged? Absolutely. The House of Commons,

:54:48.:54:53.

you go in there, it's built on the site of William the Conqueror 's

:54:54.:54:57.

first palace, and it reeks of history around every corner. There

:54:58.:55:07.

is plotting going on. You feel, you smell the conspiracies going on and

:55:08.:55:12.

you watch people. People watching as they walk through the new part of

:55:13.:55:19.

the House of Commons, portcullis house, you see he's talking to him

:55:20.:55:23.

and all that kind of thing. It is living theatre and when you say

:55:24.:55:29.

about the joust, every week, Prime Minister's Questions is a joust. I

:55:30.:55:33.

have to leave it there but good luck. Thank you. Come and see it. I

:55:34.:55:38.

would love to. There's an invitation.

:55:39.:55:40.

Now, there was a big new appointment at the Foreign Office yesterday.

:55:41.:55:43.

Nothing to do with a government reshuffle, but the arrival

:55:44.:55:45.

of a new cat which caused a bit of a stir across Whitehall.

:55:46.:55:48.

It's a tale which starts on the mean streets of London.

:55:49.:55:57.

But it ends well, for this is a cat that's found its place in one

:55:58.:56:10.

of the great offices of state, the Foreign Office.

:56:11.:56:13.

And a name to befit the role - Palmerston.

:56:14.:56:19.

They are after a mouser because I do understand

:56:20.:56:21.

that they have a pest problem, but they're also very keen

:56:22.:56:24.

to have a companion cat for all the people who work there,

:56:25.:56:26.

and we think he'll fit the bill for both very well.

:56:27.:56:31.

He's really confident, he's really sociable,

:56:32.:56:32.

he loves people, but he has what we call a really high play

:56:33.:56:35.

drive and he loves to stalk toys and chase toys and pounce on toys,

:56:36.:56:39.

which suggests that he'd also like to exhibit that

:56:40.:56:43.

Obviously this is an important role for anyone in the Foreign Office

:56:44.:56:49.

so I think it's fairly crucial we ask Palmerston what his views

:56:50.:56:52.

are on some of the big issues of the day.

:56:53.:56:56.

Palmerston, what are your thoughts on Britain leaving the EU?

:56:57.:57:03.

No diplomatic car, but the formerly feral feline turned ministerial

:57:04.:57:18.

mouser mog was officially announced to Whitehall.

:57:19.:57:23.

Palmerston has only just arrived here in the Foreign Office,

:57:24.:57:30.

but seems to be fitting in very well to ministerial life.

:57:31.:57:34.

He refused to do an interview any shots with the assembled world media

:57:35.:57:38.

here, but I have been given a statement

:57:39.:57:40.

A cat a few words. Do you think Palmerston will settle into the

:57:41.:57:55.

Foreign Office? There are lots of mice and the Foreign Office as one

:57:56.:58:00.

of moles. Yes, exactly. He's got a big job to do. I was thinking about

:58:01.:58:08.

making a film about animals and politics. It could be called

:58:09.:58:11.

Political Animals. There is a thing. There's just time before we go

:58:12.:58:12.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what has

:58:13.:58:16.

Jacob Rees-Mogg auctioned off Was it his nanny, a signed photo

:58:17.:58:18.

of him and Margaret Thatcher, one of his beautifully cut suits,

:58:19.:58:22.

or Latin lessons given So, Michael, what's

:58:23.:58:24.

the correct answer? Jacob Rees Mogg, I said he's a

:58:25.:58:36.

member for the 18th century and he said far too late. 16th century.

:58:37.:58:45.

Latin lessons. It's not, it is tea with his nanny, can you believe?

:58:46.:58:49.

That is at Fortnum and Mason 's and it went for ?5,000 at a fundraiser.

:58:50.:58:54.

Excellent. You said it was auctioning off his nanny? That's it.

:58:55.:58:58.

Goodbye from us.

:58:59.:59:02.

Jo Coburn is joined by political filmmaker Michael Cockerell to debate the latest news from Westminster. Alan Johnson, chair of Labour In for Britain and Labour's Graham Stringer are in to discuss Jeremy Corbyn's speech on remaining in the EU. Plus a look at the progress of the Housing Bill and a visit from the directors of Richard II, which is being performed in Parliament.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS