19/04/2016 Daily Politics


19/04/2016

Jo Coburn presents the latest news from Westminster, including Michael Gove's case for leaving the EU. Plus the future of revolutionary politics with a former leader of Militant.


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Transcript


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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Justice Secretary Michael Gove accuses his cabinet

:00:42.:00:43.

"like children who can be frightened into obedience",

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but are Leave campaigners waging their own campaign of fear?

:00:49.:00:52.

The Chinese will do something about the over-production of steel,

:00:53.:00:56.

so says the business secretary, but does the UK steel industry need

:00:57.:00:59.

direct government intervention to survive?

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It's an age-old technique used by MPs to wreck legislation

:01:04.:01:07.

they don't like, but is full time about to be called

:01:08.:01:09.

And if it does, will it be televised?

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There is a tendency in the Labour Party to organise revolutionary

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politics in the Labour Party and outside it.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today left-wing-activist-turned-journalist

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and writer, former Channel Four News and Newsnight

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Yesterday was George Osborne's turn, today Justice Secretary Michael Gove

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takes centre stage in the EU referendum debate, setting out why

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he believes quitting the EU would be an act of liberation

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It follows Treasury forecasts an exit could cost

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households ?4,300 a year - a figure that has been heavily

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Michael Gove warned that a vote to stay in the EU is 'the real

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danger', arguing that Eurozone countries have a permanent

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and unstoppable majority allowing them to overrule British interests.

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And that "Britain has lost control of a vital area of power

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and the European Court will increasingly decide

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Turning on his opponents, Mr Gove said the Remain campaign,

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led by Prime Minister David Cameron, "treats people like mere children,

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capable of being frightened into obedience by conjuring up

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The Justice Secretary's speech comes the day

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argued that Britain would be "permanently poorer" outside the EU.

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But Michael Gove argued: "The report from the Treasury is an official

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admission from the IN campaign that if we vote to stay in the EU then

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immigration will to continue to increase by hundreds of thousands

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One of the most striking things about the debate on Britain's future

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relationship with Europe is that the case for staying

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is couched, overwhelmingly, in negative and pessimistic terms.

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While the case for leaving is positive and optimistic.

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Those of us who want to leave, believe that Britain's

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That our country has tremendous untapped potential,

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which independence would unleash and our institutions,

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values and people will make an even more positive

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difference to the world, if we are unshackled from the past.

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I'm joined now by the Justice Minister and leave Campaigner,

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Dominic Raab and the Labour MP Chuka Umunna from

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First of all, is the Remaining campaign treating people like me are

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children capable of being frightened into obedience by conjuring up a new

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bogeyman every night? No, and if everyone is conjuring up anything it

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is the leave campaign. Me and Dominic have particular views, we

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are not impartial and we want our side to win, but there is a bank of

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independent people from the IMF and Unison and unite who argue that we

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are better off in. The Leave campaign would have you believe that

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the Unite and Unison are working together with a band of socialists,

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all raucous rated by President Obama on George Osborne's behalf, to

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oppose bricks it. It is pure fantasy. Are you indulging in

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fantasy politics, accusing other team -- sides of conjuring up the

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bogeyman? We have cross-party consensus and unions like the RMT

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right the way through to economists like Nigel Lawson, the former

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Chancellor, making the Case for going out. There is a risk reward

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calculation on both sides. What Michael Gove wants to do is say,

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hang on, you are talking about the risks of leaving the EU but what

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about the risks of staying in with the Eurozone crisis. Also today,

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critically, he set out the positive vision outside of the EU. What was

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the positive vision? The majority of what Michael Gove said this morning,

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hearing the interview this morning, saying it was all about the fear of

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staying in. Take your time and have a read of the whole thing. It repays

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it. First of all, there is no lottery ticket say that being in the

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EU or outside is a win, it is a balance of risk and reward. But he

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set out the brighter prospects outside the EU. The ability to

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control regulation. You can take different views, but it has a huge

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impact on small businesses. The EU commission concedes it hits small

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businesses ten times as hard as normal businesses. In this country

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small businesses create 85% of new jobs. Secondly he talked about the

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brighter prospects if we are independent and more energetically

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trading from Latin America to Asia. The EU has been a poor negotiator of

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trade agreements and it doesn't have a single agreement with a big

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economy. We can argue that there are a whole range of positive

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opportunities outside the EU that people like Chuka Umunna completely

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discard. Isn't that the problem for the remaining campaign? They can

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talk about Project Fia, but the idea of a brighter future of change and

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looking beyond what we have now does feel like an easier case to argue in

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a more passion away than for the status quo which is more difficult

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when you rely on establishment bodies and institutions like the

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IMF. Lave McCluskey and Dave Prentice might have something to

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say. I don't buy the idea that we get trampled over by our partners in

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the European Union and we don't get our way. Nine out of ten times we

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are on the majority side when there are votes on the European Council.

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And it is suggested that some how things are imposed on high and we

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don't have a role to play in the rules and regulations that come out

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from it. But I see this in bigger terms. I think we are dealing with a

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lot of cross-border issues, whether it is terror, the environmental

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contrast Rafiq unfolding with climate change. Those things do not

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know borders. -- catastrophe. When you are looking at these things, and

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Paul has written a lot about it, the power of multinational companies

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which seek to play different jurisdictions against each other

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saying if you don't adopt a lower level of labour protection in that

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country we will take business elsewhere. And what actually the

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European Union enables us to do is set minimum standards and prevent

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that race to the bottom. We will come back to security in a moment

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because one of the big problems for Leave is what does it look like.

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That question is repeatedly posed because you don't have a document to

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actually answer this. We can't negotiate with the EU before the

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referendum. That is an aunt Sally. You can provide an alternative. We

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have. I'm not saying it's a criticism but there was no document

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are put through so in certain terms you are doing something that may

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happen but you don't know for sure. That is the same as the Remain

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campaign. We know what it looks like. Look at the Eurozone crisis on

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the way it unfolded. The EU feels like it is on a permanent state of

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crisis. The truth is there is far greater uncertainty around the

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prospect of the EU than there are in making, modestly, but in clear ways,

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the very concrete areas where we can actually change things. Like border

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controls. You couldn't anticipate the migration crisis in the way it

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unfolded and the EU has not been able to deal with it. That migration

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crisis would be there, notwithstanding whether the EU would

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be there or not. But one might say if the EU cannot deal with a

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migration crisis... So it has no pull on a migration crisis? Let me

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finish my sentence. If you look at what is driving the migration

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crisis, we had growing jihad is in Africa and more coming into the EU

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zone from Africa and also the problems in the Middle East. Those

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things would subsist whether we were in or out of the European Union. I

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am by no means saying the European Union is perfect and it needs

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reform, and you can only reform it if you are at the table, not outside

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the room. What about the Eurozone crisis? You couldn't have predicted

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that? We are not in the Eurozone but George Osborne said we did feel

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buffeted by the crisis. This goes to the heart of one of the Leave

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campaign's biggest weaknesses. They say if we leave we will be part of

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the single market so we have all the benefits but we will not have to pay

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a fee and we won't be subject to any of the rules that come with being

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part of the single market. No country outside of the EU has that

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kind of arrangement, and why would members that we leave in the EU, why

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would they give us a deal that they have not given themselves? That is

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the problem with the Michael Gove speech. Many German and French

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menaces have articulated that argument. Dominic Raab, I'm going to

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put this to you, the French economy minister suggested that Britain

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would be completely killed in trade talks if the country chose to leave

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the EU. I'm not saying he is right, but this is the response we get, and

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maybe they would say that at the moment because they don't want

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Britain to leave the EU. But you have to ask yourself, if you want a

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trade deal with all the pluses and advantages and none of the tariffs

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and quid pro quo freedom of movement is, why would they give it? First of

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all, I hope the French economic minister keeps talking. The idea

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that Britain would be apocalyptically off the cliff edge

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if we left the EU is silly. Neither the head of the CBI, the British

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ambassador to the EU, nor the Prime Minister takes that position.

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Thereau risk and reward ratios with in or out. The reason I think we

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would have a strong trading relationship is that we are the

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fifth biggest economy in the world and the EU firms sell 60 billion

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more than we sell them. There is a strong mutual interest. The only

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reason we would be in trouble is if the EU was going to behave in an

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utterly vindictive, spiteful way. And that would run against its own

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interests. I would say this, is that the kind of club you want to be part

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of? I'm not saying, because it is a bit of a strawman argument, that we

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would not be able to trade with our European partners. But there would

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be a deal to be done. It is a question of the terms. In terms of

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the risk and reward we are talking about, 44% of exports go to the EU.

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On average, if you look at the other 27 member states, just 5% goes. But

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the point is, for hours, we have far more to lose on imports and exports.

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Let him finish his point. On world trade, I led a delegation, trade

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delegation to Beijing in 2013 and you know what the Chinese said to

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make and I went to the International Department of the Chinese Communist

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Party, as you do, and they said to me, we don't understand why are

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there some people who want to leave the European Union in your country?

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When you negotiate with us, whatever it may be, intellectual property, a

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concern of small businesses in China, you are sitting on one half

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of the table with half a billion other people negotiating with 1.3

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billion, why do you want to sit in the corner on your own? Can I ask

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about China? So why does the EU not have a trade deal with China but

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Switzerland does? But Switzerland has a deal that Michael Gove doesn't

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want to emulate my got the impression. We have surely got

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bigger economic clout than Switzerland. Paul Mason, on the

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figures, one with talk about the Leave campaign quoting ?350 million

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but has been argued against, that we pay, they say, to the EU, and we

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hear that households would be worse off, maybe not individually, but the

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June ?4300 per year, does it resonate the public? -- to the June.

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It doesn't resonate with me because I've been on the end of so many Bank

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of England reports where you cannot see the inner workings and I never

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trust them. The idea you can put a figure on it per family is

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ridiculous. The Brexit debate will be about principle. I am convinced

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of the principle that Michael Gove outlined there, that the European

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Union is not democratic and is incapable of becoming democratic.

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That is why, philosophically, I would support Brexit. My problem is

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that what we have gone on to is what is the proposal? Michael Gove says

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we are like a hostage in the back of the EU car. I don't want to be a

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hostage in the back of the car of Michael Gove and Boris Johnson.

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Given the choice on the 23rd of June, I think Brexit will happen

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anyway for the reasons David Cameron suggest because we got a deal in

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Brussels that we are already half out. In ten years, we will be out. I

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just don't want to come out with an ultra right wing Tory government and

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no chance for the left or social democracy to have its say within

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that framework. Is that the problem for attracting voters to your side?

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The co-chairman of the Leave is there and Stuart Digby Jones. I take

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Paul's point. The reality is that the anyway the British people have a

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choice is between those two models is if we are outside of the EU, so I

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understand that people feel different way on the left in

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relation to things like the working Time directive. They don't get a say

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at all if they are outside. Isn't it true that this is less about the

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merits or not remaining in the EU but more than the viewers have

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become spectators of the war in the Conservative Party? You could say

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the same on the left? It's not the same as the blue on blue attacks.

:15:54.:15:59.

Jeremy Corbyn is being attacked left right and centre for being

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passionate about it. That is a good deflection, but it has been, as a

:16:04.:16:07.

result of a split in the Conservative Party, you must accept

:16:08.:16:11.

it? There are different views in the Labour Party on both sides and

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different views on the Tory party, and the average person watching

:16:15.:16:17.

probably thinks that's healthy. The overwhelming majority of the labour

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movement is absolutely behind continuing with membership of the EU

:16:22.:16:24.

because we think it is best for security, prosperity and jobs. One

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thing I would ask you to consider, Michael Gove, kind of weird seeing

:16:30.:16:33.

them next to each other like that, doing this speech from the position

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of being a champion of democracy, and one of the things that is

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curious is he has a lot to say about democracy with the EU but very

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little to say about democracy here where you can get into government

:16:44.:16:47.

with less than 25% of the support of registered electors. It illustrates,

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does this by care about democracy or is there something else. Before I

:16:53.:16:57.

let these two go, Paul Mason, Jeremy Corbyn's conversion, is it credible?

:16:58.:17:02.

I think it is. Does he believe He is attempting to lead a party. You

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cannot criticise him for not trying to build consensus in his party.

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Like me, there are many people in the Labour moment who are sceptical

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of Europe. I'm sceptical mainly on dome crass sane free movement but,

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you know, the choice will be, on 23rd, whether or not to hand over to

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Boris and Michael Gove and they could have come and said - let's do

:17:26.:17:30.

something, let's create the debate about the future Britain outside

:17:31.:17:33.

Europe beforehand, but they didn't. That's been their choice. It is

:17:34.:17:37.

clearer and clearer this week, that that is not their choice. I will

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have to stop it there. I promised I would do security, and I did not. I

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will come back. When you are invited.

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The question for today is which leading politicians has

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spent ?10,0000 on their official parliamentary

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Was it a) The Home Secretary Theresa May?

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c) The Lords Speaker, Baroness D'Souza?

:18:00.:18:04.

or d) Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon?

:18:05.:18:06.

At the end of the show, Paul Mason will give us

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Now, the Business Minister, Sajid Javid, was meeting with other

:18:09.:18:21.

steel-producing nations yesterday, trying to persuade the Chinese,

:18:22.:18:23.

The Chinese deny that they're dumping steel on the world market,

:18:24.:18:27.

leading to huge losses at steel plants like Port Talbot,

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which is threatened with imminent closure.

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This is what Sajid Javid had to say after that meeting.

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Well overproduction is the number one issue to tackle.

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I don't think anyone expected an overnight solution to that

:18:39.:18:41.

but the discussion today, with all of these countries coming

:18:42.:18:44.

together, something we pushed for and pushed for China's

:18:45.:18:46.

participation, will help make the difference.

:18:47.:18:48.

With regard to Tata, the sales' process, the formal

:18:49.:18:50.

We are starting to be approached by interested parties.

:18:51.:18:56.

It is too early to say much about them at this stage

:18:57.:18:59.

but the important thing is, as we said all along,

:19:00.:19:02.

we will do everything we can to help with that sales' process.

:19:03.:19:11.

The steelworkers of Britain deserve nothing less.

:19:12.:19:13.

And we're joined now by the Conservative MP, John Redwood.

:19:14.:19:16.

Does the outcome of the talks mentally change anything? I hope

:19:17.:19:20.

it'll lead on to a resolution. We know the Chinese have said they will

:19:21.:19:25.

take out a lot of capacity in their own domestic market which would be

:19:26.:19:28.

extremely good news but we also know, of course, the big export

:19:29.:19:31.

threat to the UK steel industry has come from the continent of Europe,

:19:32.:19:36.

not from China and the rest of the EU exports about six times as much

:19:37.:19:40.

into the UK as the Chinese do. So we still have a problem, even if the

:19:41.:19:44.

Chinese take out enough capacity. Do you agree that will make a ditches,

:19:45.:19:47.

even if they lower capacity it could then Hayesen a resolution? Very,

:19:48.:19:52.

very slowly. They have a social unrest issue in China. Number one,

:19:53.:19:56.

as Mr Redwood says, there is also the issue of what is the balance of

:19:57.:20:00.

the European steel industry in Europe? And for us, for me in the

:20:01.:20:04.

Labour Party, people I speak to in the Labour movement, what is

:20:05.:20:07.

important is we save every job. That's one thing. That's what we are

:20:08.:20:14.

not hearing, a plan right now. You can't rush around fwrusles to

:20:15.:20:17.

Beijing without a plan for steel. Even Thatcher had a plan for coal,

:20:18.:20:23.

didn't she? There doesn't seem to be the ability for this Conservative

:20:24.:20:26.

Government to have a plan for anything. Do they not have a plan?

:20:27.:20:29.

Is the Government sort of making it up as it goes along by saying it is

:20:30.:20:34.

not going to happen overnight, it is still too early to say, we are not

:20:35.:20:38.

going to commit our sefts to saving every job in the way that Paul Mason

:20:39.:20:42.

has just outlined, is that because there isn't a plan? I think there is

:20:43.:20:46.

a developing plan. The Government isn't in full charge. They have to

:20:47.:20:49.

deal with EU requirements. They have to deal with the very difficult

:20:50.:20:52.

steel market. They have to deal with the people who currently own the

:20:53.:20:56.

assets. The Government doesn't own everything, it is not all powerful.

:20:57.:21:04.

But rhetoric... I believe the businessminister and the Prime

:21:05.:21:07.

Minister when they say they want to save the Port Talbot works. I'm not

:21:08.:21:11.

saying they are going to save every job, of course we want to save as

:21:12.:21:16.

many as possible but we need to save capacity and the technology related

:21:17.:21:19.

to it. Is it sustainable in the long term, even if you reduce pension

:21:20.:21:23.

liability and did something about energy costs which are are the

:21:24.:21:26.

things we could do something about, is it sustainable in the lock term?

:21:27.:21:34.

When McDonald's automated part of the restaurant do touch screen they

:21:35.:21:38.

said they weren't losing a single job, they are not doing it to get

:21:39.:21:44.

rid of jobs, it is to reorder the business. A commitment like that

:21:45.:21:46.

from the Government would be one thing. If you ask is it viable,

:21:47.:21:52.

there is an argument in the steel industry, we have Conservative

:21:53.:21:57.

governments who have not taken seriously industrial policy. I'm in

:21:58.:22:01.

favour of doing it f it had to happen. It didn't work, before, did

:22:02.:22:05.

t nationalising steel It did. In what way The steel industry

:22:06.:22:12.

functioned and had a competitive. Was it competitive If you

:22:13.:22:16.

nationalise t it doesn't have to. You can do things for the good of

:22:17.:22:20.

the country, security and jobs The nationalised industry lost aer if

:22:21.:22:24.

tune, created false hopes, and created five, very, very large works

:22:25.:22:28.

and -- lost a fortune. Most have gone or are now under threat T

:22:29.:22:34.

started with the awful problems over Ravenscraig. Let's in the Dell in

:22:35.:22:39.

the past. We have the same aim - to save as many jobs as possible and

:22:40.:22:43.

keep a businessic steel-making capacity and technology of the

:22:44.:22:46.

sophisticated steels which has to belinged. The plan surely must be to

:22:47.:22:52.

get a buyer, an organiser, entrepreneur, a company to stand

:22:53.:22:55.

behind. Why are they not lining up? I understand there are buyers in

:22:56.:22:58.

discussion, but it depends on what we are allowed to do EU subsidy

:22:59.:23:03.

rules limit what the Government can offer by way of financial cross. EU

:23:04.:23:08.

domestic rules and energy rules many dear energy. I want the Government

:23:09.:23:12.

to do much more on cheaper energy. One of the reasons the German

:23:13.:23:15.

industry sells so much into Britain is they have had much more energy

:23:16.:23:19.

subsidy than we have in or been allowed to have in the EU. Would you

:23:20.:23:23.

like to hear the Government saying they want it save every job at Port

:23:24.:23:29.

Talbot. I would like them and they will say they will save as many jobs

:23:30.:23:32.

as possible at Port Talbot. You shouldn't give false hope to people.

:23:33.:23:36.

It is a difficult situation. You have to allow that the a new owner

:23:37.:23:41.

may have to make adjustments. If a new owner can't be found. You say

:23:42.:23:45.

there are some in discussion. But I haven't seen that much evidence of

:23:46.:23:48.

people queueing up to take-to-. Paul Mason is right in a sows, you can

:23:49.:23:54.

make a priority F it is so important and such an intrinsic part of our

:23:55.:23:57.

manufacturing history and life in the UK, why not put the money in? We

:23:58.:24:01.

do it for other things. We did it for the banks and their balance

:24:02.:24:04.

sheets arguably are still not that healthy. Why don't we do it for

:24:05.:24:08.

steel? Government has said it is prepared to put money in, but it has

:24:09.:24:12.

to do it within the rules. The Belgium Government is having a levy

:24:13.:24:16.

to get money back which the state offered part of the Belgium

:24:17.:24:20.

industry. The Italian industry Sunday a commission. I think the

:24:21.:24:26.

Germans have defied the shengen agreement and Dublin 3. Occasionally

:24:27.:24:30.

a country can say - we are doing it ourselves, take us to the ECJ. Do

:24:31.:24:35.

you think ideology are tonight Tories going forward with that?

:24:36.:24:38.

There is the European element but the problem with the ideology, is

:24:39.:24:42.

Sajid Javid sitting there and thinking it would solve itself. If

:24:43.:24:47.

they said to Tata Steel, this country profound by believes in the

:24:48.:24:50.

steel industry and we will back whoever own it is with money and

:24:51.:24:53.

state aid, with fighting against dumping, for all I accept it is not

:24:54.:24:58.

the main issue here with some smaller plants, if it had done, that

:24:59.:25:01.

the Government sets rules of behaviour and big international

:25:02.:25:04.

businesses move in and they say - OK, we can predict what can going to

:25:05.:25:12.

happen for ten years. I think the market forces ideology, made them

:25:13.:25:15.

take their eye off the ball and now 40,000 people are going to pay for

:25:16.:25:19.

what. What I would do, Mr Redmond, I would stick money in upfront and say

:25:20.:25:24.

- there is money for whoever buys it upfront, state aid and see who ko.s

:25:25.:25:28.

I think I'm certain that is the reason why some of the interested

:25:29.:25:32.

parties areaway right now. I think the Government is saying - there is

:25:33.:25:35.

Government money available under the rules but the Government has to take

:25:36.:25:40.

legal advice and it cannot low noeingly break European law. The

:25:41.:25:44.

Civil Service interrupt European rules. Tell them to butt out They

:25:45.:25:48.

will be telling ministers the Italians and Belgians are already in

:25:49.:25:53.

deep trouble over this very thing. I will finish it now. Thank you very

:25:54.:25:54.

much. Now, roll up, roll up,

:25:55.:26:02.

roll up your sleeves and get your working hands

:26:03.:26:04.

on the hottest economic Proving there is nothing taxing

:26:05.:26:06.

or sinister about going left, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has

:26:07.:26:10.

invited his favourite economists to get out of Westminster

:26:11.:26:12.

and deliver a series John McDonnell, Shadow Chancellor

:26:13.:26:14.

welcomes the world On the new Economics Bill,

:26:15.:26:23.

there has been advice from the brightest left side

:26:24.:26:27.

of the brain, Mariana Mazzucato. Then economic cocktails served

:26:28.:26:29.

with a bowl of Joseph Stiglitz. Empressario John McDonnell himself

:26:30.:26:31.

chatted to Danny Dorling, not to be confused with Dany Dyer,

:26:32.:26:33.

although that would have been Then, there was the wisdom

:26:34.:26:36.

of Ha-Joon Chang, followed by the economic equivalent

:26:37.:26:42.

of being hit by a scooter driven by a well-groomed Greek rock

:26:43.:26:46.

star, Vanis Varoufakis. Top of the bill tomorrow,

:26:47.:26:50.

the gritty growl of reformed revolutionary,

:26:51.:26:55.

TV personality, Paul Mason. What a performance there from Giles

:26:56.:27:13.

with his guide it Labour's economic lecture tour.

:27:14.:27:14.

But what policy is emerging from all this economic wonkery,

:27:15.:27:16.

and will it help Labour win the next election?

:27:17.:27:19.

Well, to discuss that we're joined by the Blairite

:27:20.:27:21.

Blairite commentator? Let's have that discussion afterwards.

:27:22.:27:34.

Paul Mason, Ed Balls said in January 2014, there will be no more

:27:35.:27:37.

borrowing from day-to-day spending. Last month John McDonnell said they

:27:38.:27:42.

believe the Government should not need to borrow to fund day-to-day

:27:43.:27:45.

spending. The same thing. I don't think it is. I think the fiscal

:27:46.:27:51.

policy he underlined is looser on current spender. It can be looser if

:27:52.:27:56.

we hit the zero band with interest rates and we have. At a time like

:27:57.:28:00.

this, I would interrupt that - I'm in the Shadow Chancellor - but I

:28:01.:28:04.

would say we have nor leeway on current spending and certainly on

:28:05.:28:07.

investment spending and as I'm going to be outlining in my lecture for

:28:08.:28:12.

him this week, in any case, fiscal policy is not the main thing. Once

:28:13.:28:17.

you have an unor the docks monetary policy as we have, printing money,

:28:18.:28:23.

guaranteeing no interest rate rises for a certain period, you have a

:28:24.:28:28.

spill-over between fiscal and monetary policy that allows a future

:28:29.:28:31.

Labour Chancellor to stimulate the economy. It is not radically

:28:32.:28:35.

different. Ed Balls talked about stimulating the economy. The

:28:36.:28:38.

Government is strangling the economy. Even if you stimulated it

:28:39.:28:42.

mildly, I would argue, it would feel a lot divan, and again, you would

:28:43.:28:47.

have a predictable environment for the expansion of the NHS, and the

:28:48.:28:52.

education sector and in science and R that isn't happening right now.

:28:53.:28:56.

Well, John McDonnell has said he is against austerity and that those

:28:57.:29:02.

cuts that the Tory Government - - well, he has said he wouldn't put in

:29:03.:29:06.

place the sort of cuts the Tory Government is proposing because

:29:07.:29:08.

there would be growth in the economy from the investment that the Labour

:29:09.:29:11.

Party would make. That is a departure from Labour before Well

:29:12.:29:15.

reforically, yes, but we are just - I have come here to commiserate with

:29:16.:29:21.

Paul, you know, he's backed John McDonnell, who was the campaign

:29:22.:29:24.

manager for somebody called Jeremy Corbyn. He should have been the

:29:25.:29:28.

campaign manager for Liz Kendall, Liz Kendall was saying those things

:29:29.:29:31.

during the leadership campaign, you have to balance the current

:29:32.:29:34.

spending... She was a good candidate. She was a very good

:29:35.:29:41.

candidate. And she argued for fiscal responsibility which John McDonnell

:29:42.:29:47.

has now adopted. I know you want to get out of what is said by invoking

:29:48.:29:53.

the lower bound escape hatch. But you can't possibly agree with Liz

:29:54.:29:58.

Kendall's approximatelicy which John McDonnell has adopted for normal

:29:59.:30:00.

fiscal times. He is talking about fiscal responsibility. He needs to

:30:01.:30:03.

try to get the public to trust Labour and he is really doing the

:30:04.:30:07.

same things As certainly the previous Labour fwroencht and almost

:30:08.:30:12.

the Tory Government. The reason all governments have had fiscal rules is

:30:13.:30:16.

because they make sense 678 there is a cross-party academic agreement

:30:17.:30:20.

that, this is how it works - if the economy hits a rough patch, you

:30:21.:30:24.

spend some more now, to make it grow and then later the growth helps you

:30:25.:30:27.

pay back what you borrowed. That's the basic principle of all fiscal

:30:28.:30:31.

policy, but to formalise it stops you. This is I think the reason why

:30:32.:30:36.

McDonnell has done this. It stops your own supporters, the unions,

:30:37.:30:40.

people in the Labour momentum, etc, thinking that everything can be

:30:41.:30:45.

sorted by tax rises on the rich, or, you know, spending boosts. It

:30:46.:30:48.

signals to your own party that there are limits to these things and that

:30:49.:30:53.

other things have to take over, like industrial policy, like

:30:54.:30:55.

nationalising the steel industry and like boosting monetary growth. But

:30:56.:31:00.

he is going to, John McDonnell and if Labour were in power, add to the

:31:01.:31:02.

deficit. If you add the deficit you run over

:31:03.:31:13.

the debt. The deficit thing is doable. The thing is, Ed Miliband

:31:14.:31:19.

failed to get elected with those sorts of arguments, the Tory

:31:20.:31:23.

arguments, talking about fiscal responsibility, saying he'd balance

:31:24.:31:27.

the books and saying he would be responsible. Those aren't Tory

:31:28.:31:34.

arguments. That is what Ed Miliband echoed. Isn't it time for Labour to

:31:35.:31:41.

choose a different path? Paul has admitted they had chosen the same

:31:42.:31:47.

path, having debt as a share of trade in GDP by the end of the

:31:48.:31:53.

parliament and that is something that you and Jeremy Corbyn

:31:54.:31:55.

supporters condemned as neoliberalism. Wait until they, we,

:31:56.:32:05.

get our hands on the Office for Budget Responsibility and when it

:32:06.:32:08.

starts to calculate the real impact of fiscal stimulus on growth there

:32:09.:32:11.

will be a lot more allowed, even under the John McDonnell rules. And

:32:12.:32:18.

you can do more QE. That is what I will say in the lecture. So you

:32:19.:32:23.

don't want an independent Office for Budget Responsibility? I wanted to

:32:24.:32:30.

be independent of the Treasury, not using the Treasury Dome of fiscal

:32:31.:32:32.

multipliers that don't agree with the IMF. We should use fiscal

:32:33.:32:40.

multipliers that say... Osborne's kind of does. The Obi produce the

:32:41.:32:43.

answers he wanted without producing any of the growth he wanted -- the

:32:44.:32:47.

Office for Budget Responsibility. That is why he is reversing out of

:32:48.:32:52.

austerity. He is 4.5 billion out of his own austerity plan. He has

:32:53.:32:57.

reversed a position occupied by Ed Balls in the last Parliament. John

:32:58.:33:04.

McDonnell and his supporters do not disrespect Ed Balls's plan but we

:33:05.:33:08.

just need a different one going forward. In the end what will be

:33:09.:33:13.

more credible for the public? Fiscal rules, whether you stick to them,

:33:14.:33:16.

whether they are artificially made, do they make any difference question

:33:17.:33:21.

it showed by the last election they clearly did make a difference, even

:33:22.:33:34.

if the Tories argue that way. Labour will be Prime Minister, strange

:33:35.:33:37.

though it might seem to the Westminster bubble, if they tell the

:33:38.:33:40.

British people that is a believable story about how children get decent,

:33:41.:33:44.

secure jobs and have a diva -- decent lifestyle without having to

:33:45.:33:46.

win the X factor will be a professional footballer. I would

:33:47.:33:51.

actually agree with that. I think that is how Labour could win an

:33:52.:33:55.

election. But I don't see how they can possibly do so under Jeremy

:33:56.:34:02.

Corbyn. Why not? Because that is not what they are offering the British

:34:03.:34:05.

people. They are offering the British people anti-American is and

:34:06.:34:09.

fantasy economics and that is not a programme that the British people

:34:10.:34:16.

will want. What about this fantasy economics you spoke about? What is

:34:17.:34:20.

the fantasy bit? The fantasy is what they really believe as opposed to

:34:21.:34:24.

what John McDonnell has said before the budget suddenly it decided to

:34:25.:34:29.

adopt that, which is conventional economic thinking, that you should

:34:30.:34:32.

balance the books over the economic cycle. You think that would be

:34:33.:34:36.

abandoned if they came to power and they would revert to some sort of

:34:37.:34:40.

socialist doctrine you think they still hold by? I don't think John

:34:41.:34:43.

McDonnell really believes it, so I don't think he has any credibility

:34:44.:34:47.

in arguing for it but I think that is the base from which any party

:34:48.:34:51.

hats to approach the general election, and you cannot convince

:34:52.:34:58.

people to give you that vote. He is not saying to balance the books over

:34:59.:35:02.

the cycle. Balance the current books. It does say that, in five

:35:03.:35:08.

years' time. It was Gordon Brown who had an economic cycle -based rule.

:35:09.:35:11.

The rules of Ed Balls the current government are not cycle -based.

:35:12.:35:20.

What does infrastructure involved? A lot of it is not just building

:35:21.:35:25.

tunnels under the Pennines, it is about building the capacity of the

:35:26.:35:28.

workforce. There's a lot you can do under the label of infrastructure

:35:29.:35:33.

that actually cascades not into steel construction for example. At

:35:34.:35:39.

the end of the cycle, over five years, under the current fiscal rule

:35:40.:35:43.

that Labour is trying to implement all would implement, you would get a

:35:44.:35:47.

big infrastructure boost early on in any parliament and it would

:35:48.:35:50.

stimulate growth and draw jobs in. What would happen to the debt and

:35:51.:35:55.

deficit? The deficit might rise over the short-term, but that is the

:35:56.:35:59.

idea, but debt would come down as a part of GDP because over time the

:36:00.:36:03.

growth would come. Are you going to be a convert? If they're going to

:36:04.:36:10.

convert to conventional economics, fiscal responsibility, then I am all

:36:11.:36:15.

for it. The Blairites in the Labour Party have always been in favour of

:36:16.:36:19.

that and it's good to hear them come on board. The question is whether

:36:20.:36:22.

they really believe it. John Rentoul, thank you.

:36:23.:36:24.

Now, the pavements of Britain are thronged with sweaty, lycra-clad

:36:25.:36:27.

runners training for Sunday's London Marathon.

:36:28.:36:28.

Our Ellie's amongst them, and she's gathered together some fellow

:36:29.:36:31.

Westminster Village runners about to embark

:36:32.:36:32.

The weather is getting better, the sun is shining, the temperature has

:36:33.:36:44.

lifted and what else would you want to do on a Sunday morning banged

:36:45.:36:46.

over a gentle 26.2 mile I have three Labour MPs with me and

:36:47.:36:56.

we like to keep them on their toes at the Daily Politics, and here they

:36:57.:37:01.

are, running towards me. I don't normally get politicians running

:37:02.:37:06.

towards me. Hello chaps. Amanda, this is your first London Marathon.

:37:07.:37:11.

How do you feel? Incredibly nervous. I am excited because I'm assured

:37:12.:37:14.

that the crowd will carry you along, but very, very nervous about the

:37:15.:37:19.

whole thing. Dan Jarvis, a long way to be carried. How many have you

:37:20.:37:22.

done? This is my sixth London Marathon. Always hard work but a

:37:23.:37:27.

great event. The atmosphere is wonderful and the opportunity to

:37:28.:37:30.

raise money for Cancer Research is to good an opportunity to miss. You

:37:31.:37:35.

are the first Cabinet minister to run the marathon. No pressure. I've

:37:36.:37:39.

got to complete it. This will be my fit and I have to complete it --

:37:40.:37:45.

fifth. I have been running much in the last month, I can tell you.

:37:46.:37:50.

Getting his excuses in early. Amanda, apparently there is

:37:51.:37:58.

something called maranoia. Have you got any of that? I know that I want

:37:59.:38:02.

to do it and I want to think all the way through why I am doing it, and I

:38:03.:38:05.

think it's one of those things that will carry me through to the end. Is

:38:06.:38:10.

it paranoid or mad? It is madness, but it would be mad not to do it

:38:11.:38:13.

such a good cause. There is something lovely about this week in

:38:14.:38:17.

particular. You don't need to do any more running, just eat a load of

:38:18.:38:21.

carbohydrates. I haven't done a huge amount of running before these

:38:22.:38:26.

weeks, so I'm getting the excuses in again. We can look forward to the

:38:27.:38:29.

race. The atmosphere is wonderful and the level of support is

:38:30.:38:32.

incredible. I think it's really important we come together to

:38:33.:38:36.

contribute and be involved and do our bit. You said jokingly, but

:38:37.:38:42.

having the time to do it, but it does take a lot of time. Why do you

:38:43.:38:46.

do it? What is about running that goes with politics? The first is to

:38:47.:38:51.

raise money for a good cause and the charities and the impact they have,

:38:52.:38:55.

and the is quite selfish, you feel $1 million crossing the line. And in

:38:56.:38:59.

the training running up to it there are a lot of MPs running around the

:39:00.:39:03.

parks of London, late at night, and you are running through it --

:39:04.:39:08.

through Green Park, and it gives you a structure and stops you drinking

:39:09.:39:11.

and eating too much and it is a focus from Christmas until the end

:39:12.:39:17.

of April. Danny Connor you are sandwiched between some

:39:18.:39:20.

conservatives, and there are five Conservatives doing this and five

:39:21.:39:23.

Labour politicians but none of the other parties are taking part. Is

:39:24.:39:28.

there any rivalry here? Yes there is. I have been reasonably close in

:39:29.:39:35.

previous years and he has given me a bluff about some problems with his

:39:36.:39:39.

knee. I'm not buying it at all. I think we will be close to each other

:39:40.:39:44.

on Sunday. A bit of friendly rivalry, I think. I should point out

:39:45.:39:47.

it isn't just the politicians running this Sunday, there are some

:39:48.:39:50.

very dedicated political journalists who will be trying to give these

:39:51.:39:54.

politicians a bit of a run for their money. But we will see. It's a long

:39:55.:39:58.

way to go. Hey, wait for me, guys. That could have been very nasty. I

:39:59.:40:14.

actually ran with LA last weekend, no it can't be last week in, it

:40:15.:40:18.

feels like ages ago and I did a half marathon I thought I might need a

:40:19.:40:23.

hip replacement at the end. You have run a marathon? Yes, 20 years ago.

:40:24.:40:27.

The London Marathon is superb. A great social occasion and one of

:40:28.:40:31.

these institutions that holds the country together. It's great to see

:40:32.:40:34.

the MPs having a go. What was your time? 3.5 two. That's quite good.

:40:35.:40:45.

It's better to go slowly, carefully and finish. Did you run the whole

:40:46.:40:49.

thing? I ran like a whip into the first six miles and then had to be

:40:50.:40:55.

almost carried around after that. -- I ran like with it. It does take a

:40:56.:41:01.

big chunk out of your life, and not drinking in London, as one of those

:41:02.:41:02.

MPs said, quite difficult. Now MPs use the technique to talk

:41:03.:41:05.

out legislation they don't like. But a committee of MPs is proposing

:41:06.:41:08.

reforms aimed at putting an end to what's sometimes

:41:09.:41:10.

known as a "filibuster", calling it "a fraud

:41:11.:41:12.

on the people we represent". Here's the Conservative MP,

:41:13.:41:15.

Philip Davies, speaking at the debate on a bill to end

:41:16.:41:16.

hospital car parking So if we are already

:41:17.:41:19.

seeing this huge increase in parking fees for people,

:41:20.:41:26.

I don't want to introduce a bill which would see people

:41:27.:41:29.

have to pay even more. This is something

:41:30.:41:31.

that was highlighted by the British Parking Association

:41:32.:41:33.

back in 2009, following the scrapping of hospital carparking

:41:34.:41:37.

charges in Scotland. They say car parks need to be

:41:38.:41:40.

physically maintained, Charges were not introduced

:41:41.:41:42.

to generate income but rather to ensure that key staff,

:41:43.:41:47.

bona fide patients and visitors Without income to support car park

:41:48.:41:49.

maintenance, funds which should be directed to health care

:41:50.:41:56.

have to be used instead. There is also a very big

:41:57.:41:59.

geographic inequality... Mr Deputy Speaker, this speaker has

:42:00.:42:03.

already been speaking for an hour and nine minutes

:42:04.:42:09.

and what we are getting now And the Conservative MP

:42:10.:42:12.

Philip Davies and Labour MP Julie Cooper, who introduced that

:42:13.:42:22.

bill on hospital car Why did you do it, Philip Davis?

:42:23.:42:32.

Isn't it a bit of a low rent technique to adopt, filibustering?

:42:33.:42:37.

Filibustering is not allowed, and the speaker will pull you up. But

:42:38.:42:44.

that is filibustering, isn't it? Lots of people, on a Friday with

:42:45.:42:48.

bills that are ill thought through, worthy sentiments, and this is a

:42:49.:42:52.

prime example, but it hadn't been given proper consideration on the

:42:53.:42:57.

detail and application and it would have seen five out of six carers

:42:58.:43:02.

paying more than car parking. It was ill thought through, so this bill

:43:03.:43:05.

did not deserve to go through. But should it be talked out? Every

:43:06.:43:11.

parliamentarian uses whatever procedures are in place to deliver

:43:12.:43:15.

the outcome they want. This is how the Labour Party got into the Jeremy

:43:16.:43:18.

Corbyn situation by MPs saying they did not want to be the leader of the

:43:19.:43:22.

party, but let's give him ago and they ended up with a leader they

:43:23.:43:25.

want. You have to use what procedures you have got at your

:43:26.:43:29.

disposal to get the outcome you want, and every MP uses procedures

:43:30.:43:32.

to get the outcome they want. If they didn't they would not be used

:43:33.:43:37.

-- doing their job properly. Let's pick up on that it was ill thought

:43:38.:43:41.

through. Julie, do you want to come back? I totally disagree. I spent a

:43:42.:43:45.

lot of time researching the bill and I spoke to people on all sides of

:43:46.:43:48.

the house, including some Conservative members, Liberal

:43:49.:43:54.

Democrats, Scottish National party, the Green party, various supporters

:43:55.:43:58.

of the bill. I had been advised earlier on when selecting the

:43:59.:44:03.

subject that it was wise, if you hope to have any progress, that you

:44:04.:44:07.

had an issue that was noncontroversial and every party

:44:08.:44:10.

thought they could get behind. The whole point of the bill committees

:44:11.:44:15.

that follow one in the second readings are to iron out the details

:44:16.:44:19.

and I spent a lot of time with people far more experienced than I

:44:20.:44:23.

am preparing bills and there was a sound prospect in the bill but it

:44:24.:44:28.

was not to be thanks to filibustering. What do you say to

:44:29.:44:33.

the claim that MPs can and should adopt any technique that is

:44:34.:44:37.

available to their disposal if they think believes, as he put it, ill

:44:38.:44:42.

thought through? What happens is outrageously dishonest and

:44:43.:44:46.

undemocratic. I welcome the work done by the procedure committee

:44:47.:44:50.

since that episode that is actually looking to bring reform, because one

:44:51.:44:54.

thing my bill to do was to raise the whole issue in the public mind. Had

:44:55.:44:59.

I been successful, a million carers and their families would have

:45:00.:45:04.

benefited. Just to correct what Philip said, no carers would have

:45:05.:45:07.

paid extra charges and a million carers would have benefited, so it

:45:08.:45:10.

had a lot of public attention. And they were quite rightly disgusted at

:45:11.:45:16.

what they saw was spoiled on the part of some MPs. Is that not what

:45:17.:45:20.

it is? It is bored, because you do it because you can, speaking for one

:45:21.:45:25.

hour and 52 minutes, and were you being undemocratic? I was blocking a

:45:26.:45:28.

bill I thought was ill thought through. It's not the first time

:45:29.:45:33.

you've done it. Lots of bills go through. It's noncontroversial. But

:45:34.:45:38.

you did it on the compulsory emergency first aid education bill.

:45:39.:45:41.

That was a bad bill as well. The point about Julie's bill, if you

:45:42.:45:45.

don't mind me saying so, five out of six carers it wouldn't have applied

:45:46.:45:49.

to and only applied to people with an underlying claim to carers

:45:50.:45:53.

allowance. We had no idea how the hospital would determine that claim,

:45:54.:45:57.

how it would be managed, whether if there was a dispute between the

:45:58.:46:00.

hospital and the carer whether there would be some new parking ombudsman

:46:01.:46:04.

who would resolve complaints, whether the money to pay for this

:46:05.:46:07.

would come from the hospital on the doctors and nurses, from the

:46:08.:46:10.

government or from higher parking charges and everybody else which

:46:11.:46:13.

would have meant five out of six carers would have paid more. Julie

:46:14.:46:16.

couldn't and is the questions. She hadn't even spoken to Burnley

:46:17.:46:20.

Hospital. She had spoken to other parties. This was very much a soul

:46:21.:46:26.

campaign, not a party campaign, so you took it upon yourself to wreck

:46:27.:46:32.

the bill. The point is this. If a hundred MPs turn up on Friday to

:46:33.:46:35.

support a bill and it passes through, irrespective of what I do

:46:36.:46:39.

over how long anybody speaks, if Julie couldn't muster 100 MPs out of

:46:40.:46:44.

650 to support the bill and she claimed she had all the support,

:46:45.:46:48.

where were they? If a hundred MPs had turned up, it have passed. The

:46:49.:46:53.

point is that more senior MPs have sat through so many sessions that

:46:54.:46:57.

they know how it works on a Friday, but Philip and a couple of his

:46:58.:47:01.

colleagues sit there Friday after Friday, every time a Private members

:47:02.:47:05.

Bill comes through. Did you get the support? Yes, I did get the support.

:47:06.:47:12.

Where were they? The important thing is that going forward the committee

:47:13.:47:16.

looks at improving the process so we can have a fair situation and an

:47:17.:47:21.

honest boat. A number of colleagues -- an honest boat. A number of

:47:22.:47:26.

colleagues said that they support carers in Parliament and then they

:47:27.:47:31.

refused to vote against it. Many of the issues that Philip mentioned I

:47:32.:47:34.

had discussed with the Minister before the bill was presented and he

:47:35.:47:38.

made it plain that the government did not want to support it, so let's

:47:39.:47:43.

have an honest debate. Should there be moves to get rid of this option?

:47:44.:47:47.

No. I think the system works well in the sense if the bill has the

:47:48.:47:55.

support of 100 MPs it can go through without anybody blocking it but

:47:56.:48:00.

gives a mechanism to block bills. Otherwise people come with a worthy

:48:01.:48:03.

sentiment and expect everybody to faun all over it and pass it on the

:48:04.:48:08.

nod. We are passing legislation, it it is serious business, it should

:48:09.:48:11.

the be able dom with a worthy sentiment and go through. Do you

:48:12.:48:14.

think it is worth keeping? Absolutely not. The balance is not

:48:15.:48:19.

what happens in Parliament. If a large corporation wants the law

:48:20.:48:23.

changed they don't ask an MP to put a Friday morning bill in. They go

:48:24.:48:29.

and get an ordering counsel, they get statute changed and ministerial

:48:30.:48:35.

decisions and they are in there, as we speak, consultants being paid

:48:36.:48:38.

tens of thousands a week to do that. Business can get any change it wants

:48:39.:48:42.

to into government but the public has to go through petitions which

:48:43.:48:46.

are never listened to or private members bills and somebody pops up a

:48:47.:48:52.

and stops them. The minimum you can do, is streamline and make clear but

:48:53.:48:57.

a there are some crazy ones. Make clear that the private member's

:48:58.:49:01.

bill, that the procedure - but in the end, I think it is only the

:49:02.:49:05.

beginning of participatory democracy, which is what we need in

:49:06.:49:09.

this country. Do you think it'll put people off, other MPs coming forward

:49:10.:49:12.

with private members bills Absolutely definitely. I would think

:49:13.:49:17.

ten times, 100 times before I give up a Friday to support a private

:49:18.:49:20.

member's bill, even on a very worthy issue. It is a total waste, and a

:49:21.:49:24.

disrespect of British Parliament and even more than that, it is a

:49:25.:49:27.

disrespect to the British public. It is insulting for them for them to be

:49:28.:49:31.

- 1 million careers could have benefited and many of them and their

:49:32.:49:36.

families tuned in that morning tloisen to see the -- to listen it

:49:37.:49:40.

see the charade that passed for debate. All right. Thank you for

:49:41.:49:44.

both of you. I won't let you talk out the rest of the programme.

:49:45.:49:54.

Talk of a steel crisis reminds us of a time, not so long ago,

:49:55.:49:58.

when workers were out on strike, stock markets were crashing

:49:59.:50:00.

and the far left in British politics were agitating for a revolution.

:50:01.:50:03.

Including, it appears, one young journalist from Wigan.

:50:04.:50:05.

Times have now changed and these days Paul Mason has recanted his

:50:06.:50:08.

"revolutionary marxism" in favour of "radical social democracy".

:50:09.:50:10.

In a moment we will find out why, and hear from Peter Taaffe,

:50:11.:50:13.

the General Secretary of the Socialist Party

:50:14.:50:15.

and former chief of militant, about why he thinks a revolution

:50:16.:50:17.

But first, let's go back to 1987 and hear the views

:50:18.:50:21.

There undoubtedly was the demand for a forum where the left could come in

:50:22.:50:32.

from the cold. For many be the so-called outside left the Labour

:50:33.:50:35.

Conference was a disaster. Since then it has been greatly lifted but

:50:36.:50:39.

the problems of the world stock market. The world will never be the

:50:40.:50:43.

same again. There is no way back for Thatcher and Reagan and it'll be the

:50:44.:50:49.

end of monetaryism. Tony Benn had hoped it could be a family reunion

:50:50.:50:53.

for the left but it was a family with immense strain. As well as over

:50:54.:50:57.

1,000 Labour MPs, there were many people from way outside the party

:50:58.:51:03.

like Socialist Work and entryist like Workers Power. There a tendency

:51:04.:51:13.

within the Labour Party To do what? Build revolutionary politics inside

:51:14.:51:14.

the Labour Party. I'm joined now by Peter Taaffe,

:51:15.:51:16.

General Secretary of the Socialist Party and founder

:51:17.:51:18.

of the entryist Militant Group which caused Labour so many

:51:19.:51:20.

problems in the 1980s. Welcome to the programme. I hope you

:51:21.:51:29.

enjoyed doing yourself. That jumper was superb. Why didn't you show me

:51:30.:51:34.

at that age. You were part of a ginger group... Ginger. Well a

:51:35.:51:39.

groups agitating for revolutionary politics but when George Osborne

:51:40.:51:44.

accused of you being a revolutionly Marxist, you denied it. Why? Because

:51:45.:51:50.

I'm in the one now. Thatcher destroyed the miners, we had

:51:51.:51:53.

extrajudicial force used against working class people. There were

:51:54.:51:56.

riots on the streets. We were fighting a battle for the survival

:51:57.:52:00.

of working class communities, which we lost, which I am terribly sorry

:52:01.:52:06.

about. There are people in emmer vale and Wigan, Leigh, where I come

:52:07.:52:09.

from, still living with that and we were right to fight it. Why aren't

:52:10.:52:14.

you still fighting? The world that has emerged is different. The global

:52:15.:52:19.

economy, the possibility for social just tis that is has emerged have to

:52:20.:52:24.

be recalibrated from where you start with. For me, personally ut journey

:52:25.:52:28.

I have taken, I think the revolutionary left politics of the

:52:29.:52:32.

197 #0gs and 80s had a fatal weakness of failing to understand

:52:33.:52:35.

that what most working class people, ordinary people that work now, let's

:52:36.:52:40.

leave aside the labels, what they want is an area of self-control

:52:41.:52:43.

within capitalism, within the system. That's what people like Nye

:52:44.:52:48.

Bevan fought for that.ings a what, as a trade unionist and MP, and

:52:49.:52:51.

that's what I would fight for now. Are you disappointed by this change

:52:52.:52:54.

of heart. Paul Mason says he is adapting to the world as it is

:52:55.:52:58.

today. You are stuck in the 1970s and 80s? No, I think he has changed

:52:59.:53:03.

his position and it is greatable, as he has explained. I think there is

:53:04.:53:07.

more of a case today for the battles we fought 30 years ago and they won

:53:08.:53:12.

some of those battles. It wasn't all losses. We are the people, that was

:53:13.:53:16.

Militant, now the Socialist Party who took on thatch-and-a-half in

:53:17.:53:20.

Liverpool and defeated her. She was forced to give big concessions to

:53:21.:53:25.

the working class of people. We also mobilised 18 million people to

:53:26.:53:29.

defeat the poll tax. If you read Mrs Thatcher's biography, you will see

:53:30.:53:34.

she admit in there that that battle, Paul, led to her resignation. It

:53:35.:53:39.

wasn't the EU. Those lessons are relevant today. What does Jeremy

:53:40.:53:43.

Corbyn's election to the leadership of the Labour Party represent? What

:53:44.:53:48.

does the Bernie Sanders phenomena in America represent? Where he has

:53:49.:53:54.

talked about revolution, you have articulated that. You have left at a

:53:55.:53:57.

time when perhaps, Britain and America are ripe for revolution.

:53:58.:54:01.

Bernie Sanders talk of revolution is about a political revolution in

:54:02.:54:04.

America, throwing money out of politics. You as co-thinkers inside,

:54:05.:54:10.

I think in is he atle you have one City Councillor Yes. But there is a

:54:11.:54:14.

big thing happening, horizontally among young people. We mean by that,

:54:15.:54:19.

not involved in hierarchial groups. There are people on the streets of

:54:20.:54:25.

Paris, every night fighting for social justice, not a Leninist

:54:26.:54:28.

revolution. The poblted of that has gone. Number two, yes, the struggle

:54:29.:54:33.

we won things through fighting the poll tax, your own collaborator,

:54:34.:54:38.

Tommy Sheridan was heroic I would argue and Scottish people followed.

:54:39.:54:43.

Yes, jailed in that time. And the point is what do we do now, it has

:54:44.:54:49.

to be a mixture of resisting the austerity and the injustice that is

:54:50.:54:53.

have been inflicted be o people and parliamentary action. Why don't you

:54:54.:54:59.

- why don't you just come in, join the Labour Party, give yourselves -

:55:00.:55:04.

as we did... On the last question. As we did in '97. I was part of the

:55:05.:55:09.

Labour Party. Why don't you? We would like to join the Labour Party.

:55:10.:55:14.

In the same way as the... Do you still want a Leninist mai,

:55:15.:55:18.

coalition? In the same way as the co-op. The idea of Leninism as a

:55:19.:55:23.

hierarchial, centralised... Do you still believe in it? We believe in

:55:24.:55:29.

parties. We don't believe we will be a spontaneous movement that can

:55:30.:55:32.

overthrow the most ruthless, capitalist class we have had in

:55:33.:55:34.

history. They are absolutery ruthless. They have been trained to

:55:35.:55:40.

rule. The phenomenon you have mentioned, it is a step forward. The

:55:41.:55:44.

Jeremy Corbyn movement is a step forward. Because would you like it

:55:45.:55:48.

to be the sort of party you want it to be, this overthrow of the

:55:49.:55:53.

capitalist class. We believe that will be arrived at by democratic

:55:54.:55:56.

discussion and debate. We would like to be part of the Labour Party. Paul

:55:57.:56:01.

wrote a very interesting article in the Guardian in which he said - it

:56:02.:56:07.

can't be now that - centralised, a topdown party. We agree with that.

:56:08.:56:12.

Why not a featheration, different organisations in different parties.

:56:13.:56:15.

Do you think there is still, a swell of support for that sort of

:56:16.:56:18.

sentiment? Stls not among young people and young people, in other

:56:19.:56:23.

words, are way ahead of the kind of fossilised leftism of the 20th

:56:24.:56:27.

Century. They have realised that you can have your own personal

:56:28.:56:29.

revolution, you can do quite a lot on your own and the key difference

:56:30.:56:34.

for me is that so many people have decided that, you know, in spending

:56:35.:56:39.

your entire life to enforce labour to do things or Knight night or the

:56:40.:56:46.

RMT, do it yourself -- or Unite. The point is you don't need a

:56:47.:56:50.

hierarchial organisation and structure, you don't need T with a

:56:51.:56:53.

cell phone you can do more than you can. I think that's childish,

:56:54.:56:58.

frankly. What you have explained in your book about post capitalism, is

:56:59.:57:03.

the enormous oppressive apparatus that the ruling class worldwide has

:57:04.:57:08.

bilted up. You give a good phrase where you said think about Manila in

:57:09.:57:13.

Gothenberg. You talked about the head of Prudential insurance saying

:57:14.:57:16.

the minimum wage is the enemy of young people. They are ruthless. Do

:57:17.:57:21.

you think that by coming together in the kind of general discussion, that

:57:22.:57:26.

we will be able to overthrow this capital class, it is childish? The

:57:27.:57:30.

only way is by building a mass party. Social counter-parlance. Are

:57:31.:57:35.

you still close to Jeremy Corbyn? In a sense, yes, we support Jeremy

:57:36.:57:39.

Corbyn. We would like to be part of his project but Jeremy Corbyn is

:57:40.:57:42.

unfortunately, he is trapped behind enemy lines. Who is the enemy? Who

:57:43.:57:48.

is the enemy? Some are the Blairites, one of whom you have had

:57:49.:57:51.

in here today. They don't want what Jeremy Corbyn stands for. Paul know

:57:52.:57:55.

this is. We have two parties in one in the Labour Party. We have the

:57:56.:57:58.

Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party and we have the old, discredited remnants

:57:59.:58:02.

of the Blairites. We want a real struggle to build a party that

:58:03.:58:06.

represents the overwhelming majority. Briefly, do you think

:58:07.:58:11.

Peter and his supporters are threatening the potential success of

:58:12.:58:15.

Jeremy Corbyn? 123450 not so far, they can't win a single election

:58:16.:58:18.

against him. Labour San alliance of the left and right. It is unusual

:58:19.:58:22.

the left is leading. That's what the Blairites can't get their head

:58:23.:58:25.

around. I will have to finish it there. Thank you very much. Now time

:58:26.:58:28.

to find out the answer to our quiz: The question was which leading

:58:29.:58:33.

politicians has spent Was it a) The Home

:58:34.:58:35.

Secretary Theresa May? C) The Lords' Speaker,

:58:36.:58:40.

Baroness D'Souza? Or D) Scottish First Minister,

:58:41.:58:43.

Nicola Sturgeon? It is the Lords' speaker. Nearly

:58:44.:58:49.

?10,000. It is, it is Lady D'Souza. Well done you. You don't get a cash

:58:50.:58:53.

prize but you can probably take a mug.

:58:54.:58:56.

Free membership of the Socialist Party for a year. From all of us,

:58:57.:58:58.

goodbye.

:58:59.:59:04.

Jo Coburn presents the latest news from Westminster, including Michael Gove's case for leaving the EU. Plus the future of revolutionary politics with a former leader of the Trotskyist Militant Tendency.


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