25/04/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

As junior doctors prepare for an all-out strike this week,

ministers accuse doctors' leaders of trying to bring

The walk-out by junior doctors - planned for tomorrow and Wednesday -

could also threaten patient safety, according to the Health Secretary.

The British Medical Association says it will call off the strike

if the Government reverses its position to impose the new contract.

Theresa May admits that EU freedom of movement rules make it harder

But the Home Secretary still thinks we should stay in

So can we control our borders if we decide to stay?

There's controversy surrounding the new president

She insists she's not anti-Semitic, but some unions are threatening

to break away following her election.

Yes, what would Shakespeare have made of the EU debate?

And with us for the whole of the programme today,

two of Parliament's shyest and most unassuming members,

Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi and Labour's Chris Bryant.

Hail, well met. Are we going to do that throughout the programme?

Verily! Oh, no! First today, leading figures

in the campaign for Britain to leave the EU have moved to reclaim

the initiative after It follows a high profile visit

by Barack Obama in which the US president came out strongly

in support of the campaign But this morning, one

of Vote Leave's biggest hitters, the Justice Secretary Michael Gove,

says Britain faces a migration "free for all" unless it breaks

away from Brussels. The former Work and Pensions

Secretary Iain Duncan If we remain, what are

the risks of remaining? But the risks are of being

in a continent in a trading arrangement and in a political

union which is heading towards a kind of superstate with a collapsing

currency and a chaos and crisis of migration, with people coming

in and we don't know who they are the threats

to terrorism and crime. The Home Secretary Theresa May has

also been wading in to the debate. Yesterday she admitted that the EU's

freedom of movement rules make it But this morning, in a speech

in London, she outlined why She said the benefits of remaining

were a price worth paying to stay in the EU.

The question the country has to answer on the 23rd of June,

whether to leave or remain, is about how we maximise Britain's

security, prosperity and influence in the world,

That is the control we have over our own affairs in future.

And I use the word maximise advisedly, because no country

or empire in world history has ever been totally sovereign, completely

Theresa May. Chris Bryant, she did say that it might be a price worth

paying, but has she done more harm than good, bearing in mind that

immigration is such a central part for a lot of people in this debate?

Migration goes both ways, and of course the majority of migration

into the UK at the moment is still from outside the European Union, and

there are forms of migration we desperately need, whether that is

nurses from Italy or Spain, countries that have deliberately

trained to many nurses and we need nurses in my local hospital, or

international students that you want from every part of the world to come

to study in the UK and strengthen their relationship with the UK. You

could still do that from outside the EU? Yes, but you couldn't have the 2

million British people who go to other countries in the European

Union. You have to bear in mind that the countries whose nationals most

use the freedom of movement are the British, because we have 2 million

living elsewhere in the European Union, and of course, younger

generations in particular really value that freedom to go and study,

travel, work, and older generations to retire, in other countries in the

European Union without hindrance. It is true to say that leaving the EU

wouldn't automatically mean a significant reduction in

immigration? What it would mean as we stop the free movement. The

question of price worth paying, we have just introduced the National

living wage, and that will rise to over ?9 per hour by 2020, the

question we all have to ask is, there's an national living wage,

women working part-time... Is it not a good thing? It is a good thing,

but the freedom of movement puts huge pressure on those people, set

it at a price worth paying for them? According to the Government's own

official figures, 3 million people will come into this country by 2030.

You have to remember that if you are progressive politician who worries

about people on low wages, the freedom of movement hurts them the

most, that is the question here, and Chris has to answer that. It is a

pull factor. I think most migration is driven by push factors rather

than pull factors, that is to say whether your country is a safe place

and whether there is work and employment or the rest of it. You

have had polls coming under your government, you have to be honest

with your constituents. I will like after my constituents, you look

after your is, but the point that he has to answer is, he says, as do

several other Brexit supporters, if we leave the European Union, we will

end free movement of labour, but that is completely and utterly

untrue, there isn't a single trade deal that countries have done, that

the EU has done with other countries that doesn't also mean that you have

to adopt free movement of labour. First of all, do you think that that

increase in the national living wage will be a massive pull factor for

people to come here? The reason people come here is because yes! I

am just teasing you. Well, behave. White let him answer. Evil come here

because we have -- people come here because we have a good economy, and

I think we need to clamp down on the crowding of houses that undercuts

local workers. Name a country that has the status at the moment of a

very good trade deal with no tariffs with the European Union, and doesn't

sign up to the freedom of movement. Yes, you can. Where? Before I became

of Parliament, I rang YouGov, and we went across the whole of

Scandinavia, there is an single market in services, but we did

really well. Elon musk has just sold $10 billion of cars in three days...

I just want a country. We are the first large economy in the world.

Name a country. My point is we are a massive economy, let's not talk

ourselves down. What I'm asking for is a country that has this amazing

deal and status and doesn't have freedom of movement. There isn't

one? No, but we can have a trade deal like we have a special

relationship with other countries, we can have a trade deal. There

isn't a country that has ever been able to negotiate such a deal. We

are not Switzerland or Norway, where the fifth largest economy in the

world. But you want us to be Switzerland or Norway. No, I don't.

Let's be strong, the New World is about innovation, not about

population. I'm going to have to stop you there because we will run

out of the rest of the show! The question for today

is all about Shakespeare - Nadhim of course is the MP

for Stratford-on-Avon so this should It is, of course, 400 years

since the Bard "shuffled But that hasn't deterred us

here at the Daily Politics. We can cross now to our little

theatre in the sky and speak to William Shakespeare and he has

a little quiz for us. I wrote "A fool doth think

he is wise, but the wise man knows So do you know which of these four

European Union countries was not Spain, Portugal, the Czech

Republic or Croatia? Thank you very much, and at the end

of the show, you can give us a correct answer. It is always

debatable. There was a flurry activity over

the weekend as all sides in the junior doctors' dispute tried

to work out a way of avoiding Hospitals across England are busy

making final preparations to cope with the walkout

that starts tomorrow. As things stand, junior doctors

in England will walk out from all hospital services,

including accident and emergency, between 8am and 5pm

on Tuesday and Wednesday. Essential care will be provided

by consultants and other senior staff during the strike,

and NHS England has said that A departments will remain open

throughout the strike whilst GP surgeries may "experience

greater demand." NHS England says over a hundred

thousand outpatient appointments and 12,000 planned

operations will be delayed. Over the weekend, Shadow Health

Secretary Heidi Alexander organised a compromise proposal

which would see the new doctors' contracts piloted first,

the plan was also endorsed by the former Conservative health

minister, Dr Dan Poulter, Norman Lamb from the Liberal

Democrats and the SNP's However, Health Secretary Jeremy

Hunt rejected the idea, arguing the Government had always planned

to phase in the new contract Mr Hunt wrote to the British Medical

Association asking them to call off the strike and asking

for a meeting today. He went on to warn that the strike

"risks the safety of many patients" The BMA responded that

if the imposition of new contracts was removed, the strike

would be called off. Well, joining me now from outside

the Department of Health is Junior Dr David Lonsdale. We will come to

him in a moment. Nadhim Zahawi, no one wants this strike to happen, and

of course over the weekend, a cross-party group of MPs including

former Conservative Minister proposed a compromise that wouldn't

stop the new contracts, but at least might have stopped strike. Why

wasn't it considered? The strike is deeply irresponsible and wrong, and

I hope they think twice about it. The reason from my reading of the

fact is that the contract is that 11% of junior doctors will be on it

in August, so to have a pilot is unnecessary, there is already a

phasing. And it will cause unnecessary delay. If you are

already phrasing it, why would you slow things down? Because it might

have meant the strike wouldn't have happened! The whole contract is

agreed other than Saturday pay, so the only thing remaining outstanding

Saturday pay. The BMA refused to sit with Jeremy and talk about Saturday

pay, and that is why we are where we are. If they just sit down and talk

about Saturday pay, that is where we are. Everything else is agreed. Lets

talk to David Lonsdale. Has the BMA made it a precondition that until

and less Jeremy Hunt actually removes the imposition of the

contract, you won't even meet? That's the thing that needs to

happen to talks to resume, but I will come back to that. If you are

going to have negotiations, meaningful negotiations, they cannot

be done with a gun to your head, and that is what imposition is. That is

set by a political timetable, there is no need to do it in August. It

could be at any stage throughout the year, are the important thing with a

contract is that it is right, proper, finished, safe from patients

unfair to doctors. Watch your guest has said which is that it is all

about Saturday pay, that is nonsense. Jeremy Hunt wrote over the

weekend and outline four points over which there were still work to be

done, and these include issues over working conditions the doctors in

terms of hours worked, conditions over people with families,

specifically therefore referring to the equality impact assessment which

says this contract will disproportionately affect women

trainees, which is a disgrace in 2016, as well as other issues to do

with Drs' training. It is farcical that we are in a situation where

Jeremy Hunt has issued a letter acknowledging there is still work to

be done but he won't sit down and talked about it. What kind of

situation is this? Let's put that to Nadhim Zahawi. Jeremy Hunt is not

handling this in anyway to take the heat out of what has become an

extremely poisonous argument between junior doctors and the Health

Secretary. I think he has been very patient, this has been going on for

years, this negotiation. What we have to do is look at what is

substantive that is left, which is the Saturday pay. Answer the

question from Dagan Lonsdale, that the contract hasn't been formulated

properly. They are refusing because of Saturday pay, that is the crux of

it. The question you have to put to them is that we could get back to

the negotiating table. So, why do you have a precondition, when you

are talking about potentially putting patients' lives at risk with

this all-out strike the first time in the history of the NHS, you even

sit down and meet the Department of Health or Jeremy Hunt to talk about

these contracts? For starters, I am not a requisite

stove of the BMA, I am just a junior doctor, but your guest has repeated

the government spin about it being Saturday pay, despite Jeremy Hunt

writing to say that it is about four other things. It is a complete

nonsense to say it is about Saturday pay. There is more work to be done.

I would draw your attention to the letter from their BMA saying that

all that needed to happen for the strike to be lifted is for Jeremy

Hunt to lift his position. We have been prepared to work with others

through this but the government have not been. I take your point, but the

BMA is using that as a precondition. So you are blocking a potential

negotiation here on your side, which is why the government sources are

now saying that this is a political strike and you are trying to bring

down the government. Are you? That is complete nonsense. This has never

been about personality. Junior doctors have always said they want

to work with the government to keep the NHS as a world-class

organisation. We need to have an honest and frank discussion about

what we can afford in 2016, in times of austerity, set by this

government, and what we cannot do is simply click our fingers and say

that a seven-day NHS will happen without extra funding and staff,

because it meets our manifesto commitment. What the government has

to do with manifestos is have a plan to implement them after they are

elected. That is the problem here. The Conservative government has been

elected on the back of a promise for which they have no

funding or planning. Doctors are being risen over for political

expediency, and that is the problem, because doctors do not want to be on

strike, they want to work with the government and make the health care

system sustainable and safer for patients. Let's now Nadhim Zahawi

add to that. -- let Nadhim Zahawi answer that. We talked about the

manifesto. We pledged to deliver this with more resources, ?10

billion more. That is what we have delivered. Last week, we announced

the investment in 5000 more GPs, and we want to talk to junior doctors. I

think Jeremy has gone the extra mile, to say... Then left the

imposition of the contract. Let's talk about what is the stand to have

left on the table, just the Saturday pay. -- what is substantive. This

proposal, Chris Bryant, was there anything in that? It has been

rejected here by its Nadhim Zahawi because the contracts were going to

be phased in any way. Was it political opportunism? Everyone

wants an opportunity to stop the strike. The best way to do that is

to make sure there is a negotiated settlement. I point out that it is

not just the Labour Party, it is also Dan Botha, who was in Jeremy

Hunt's health team as a Tory MP, and is a doctor. But the point I make is

that we're not having the strike in Wales, which is where the NHS is

run, because we have not decided to to war. But that is making a party

political. But that is just a fact. The doctor spoke very well. With the

?2 million top-down reorganisation in the last Parliament, it seems

like the government has gone to war with the NHS. Dagan Lonsdale, is

Jeremy Hunt wrong when he says the strike risks the safety of many

patients? That is what most people watching will want to know. As one

of the papers said today, don't be sick tomorrow. I don't like this

sensationalism in the media because we have to be clear about what is

happening tomorrow. It is nine hours were care will be provided by the

more senior doctors. I cannot talk to you about what is happening at

other hospitals. But people will be at risk? I don't believe they will

be at my hospital where there are 100 doctors prepared for this event,

the most qualified in the country. Over the weekend we saw letters with

thousands of consultants saying they will keep patients safe and if

people are unwell and need to come to A tomorrow, they should do so.

It is wrong for the government to scaremonger when emergency care will

be provided by the most experienced doctors in the country. Can I come

back to the point about ?10 million? It is complete government spent to

suggest that this is new funding from the NHS. It is funding that was

not included in the manifesto pledge. The reason the talk has been

derailed is because the government has wedged in a seven-day NHS on a

cost neutral basis which will not happen. It is completely impossible

without extra funding and staffing. Dagan Lonsdale, thank you very much.

And that strike is going ahead. In the run-up to the election on May

the 5th, we will be bringing you details of all the contests

including those that involve legislators. Today, it is the turn

of Northern Ireland and we have been out on the campaign trail to see

what the parties are offering and to ask if anything much will change.

There have been arguments over setting the budget, together with

coming to terms with the past, threatening to derail devolution in

Northern Ireland. But despite one party withdrawing from the

power-sharing executive last summer, Stormont has seen the longest period

of default rule since the Good Friday agreement. Northern Ireland

goes to the polls in a few weeks' time and there are 108 seats up for

grabs in there. The parties are just kicking off their campaigns. I

better get a move on if I am going to get around them all. First up,

the manifesto launch of the biggest party. Arlene Foster is the leader

of the DUP and the current first Minister of Northern Ireland. Given

that the system is setup to make sure that all sections of the

community represented around the top table, I her if anything is likely

to change at this election. We are in a unimaginably coalition and one

of the policies we set up is to move to a voluntary coalition because we

think that is the way that it should work in Northern Ireland. But you

are right, it will be the same parties back again but depending on

their strength, we will see how many ministries they will be able to take

in. I have a different vision for Northern Ireland than Martin

McGuinness, for example, so it is important that people understand

those plans. We are late, come on. Moments later, it is the DUP, who

quit the executive last year amid concerns about the provisional IRA.

We have had a devolved government for 18 years and it is about the

economy and health