25/04/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


As junior doctors prepare for an all-out strike this week,


ministers accuse doctors' leaders of trying to bring


The walk-out by junior doctors - planned for tomorrow and Wednesday -


could also threaten patient safety, according to the Health Secretary.


The British Medical Association says it will call off the strike


if the Government reverses its position to impose the new contract.


Theresa May admits that EU freedom of movement rules make it harder


But the Home Secretary still thinks we should stay in


So can we control our borders if we decide to stay?


There's controversy surrounding the new president


She insists she's not anti-Semitic, but some unions are threatening


to break away following her election.


Yes, what would Shakespeare have made of the EU debate?


And with us for the whole of the programme today,


two of Parliament's shyest and most unassuming members,


Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi and Labour's Chris Bryant.


Hail, well met. Are we going to do that throughout the programme?


Verily! Oh, no! First today, leading figures


in the campaign for Britain to leave the EU have moved to reclaim


the initiative after It follows a high profile visit


by Barack Obama in which the US president came out strongly


in support of the campaign But this morning, one


of Vote Leave's biggest hitters, the Justice Secretary Michael Gove,


says Britain faces a migration "free for all" unless it breaks


away from Brussels. The former Work and Pensions


Secretary Iain Duncan If we remain, what are


the risks of remaining? But the risks are of being


in a continent in a trading arrangement and in a political


union which is heading towards a kind of superstate with a collapsing


currency and a chaos and crisis of migration, with people coming


in and we don't know who they are the threats


to terrorism and crime. The Home Secretary Theresa May has


also been wading in to the debate. Yesterday she admitted that the EU's


freedom of movement rules make it But this morning, in a speech


in London, she outlined why She said the benefits of remaining


were a price worth paying to stay in the EU.


The question the country has to answer on the 23rd of June,


whether to leave or remain, is about how we maximise Britain's


security, prosperity and influence in the world,


That is the control we have over our own affairs in future.


And I use the word maximise advisedly, because no country


or empire in world history has ever been totally sovereign, completely


Theresa May. Chris Bryant, she did say that it might be a price worth


paying, but has she done more harm than good, bearing in mind that


immigration is such a central part for a lot of people in this debate?


Migration goes both ways, and of course the majority of migration


into the UK at the moment is still from outside the European Union, and


there are forms of migration we desperately need, whether that is


nurses from Italy or Spain, countries that have deliberately


trained to many nurses and we need nurses in my local hospital, or


international students that you want from every part of the world to come


to study in the UK and strengthen their relationship with the UK. You


could still do that from outside the EU? Yes, but you couldn't have the 2


million British people who go to other countries in the European


Union. You have to bear in mind that the countries whose nationals most


use the freedom of movement are the British, because we have 2 million


living elsewhere in the European Union, and of course, younger


generations in particular really value that freedom to go and study,


travel, work, and older generations to retire, in other countries in the


European Union without hindrance. It is true to say that leaving the EU


wouldn't automatically mean a significant reduction in


immigration? What it would mean as we stop the free movement. The


question of price worth paying, we have just introduced the National


living wage, and that will rise to over ?9 per hour by 2020, the


question we all have to ask is, there's an national living wage,


women working part-time... Is it not a good thing? It is a good thing,


but the freedom of movement puts huge pressure on those people, set


it at a price worth paying for them? According to the Government's own


official figures, 3 million people will come into this country by 2030.


You have to remember that if you are progressive politician who worries


about people on low wages, the freedom of movement hurts them the


most, that is the question here, and Chris has to answer that. It is a


pull factor. I think most migration is driven by push factors rather


than pull factors, that is to say whether your country is a safe place


and whether there is work and employment or the rest of it. You


have had polls coming under your government, you have to be honest


with your constituents. I will like after my constituents, you look


after your is, but the point that he has to answer is, he says, as do


several other Brexit supporters, if we leave the European Union, we will


end free movement of labour, but that is completely and utterly


untrue, there isn't a single trade deal that countries have done, that


the EU has done with other countries that doesn't also mean that you have


to adopt free movement of labour. First of all, do you think that that


increase in the national living wage will be a massive pull factor for


people to come here? The reason people come here is because yes! I


am just teasing you. Well, behave. White let him answer. Evil come here


because we have -- people come here because we have a good economy, and


I think we need to clamp down on the crowding of houses that undercuts


local workers. Name a country that has the status at the moment of a


very good trade deal with no tariffs with the European Union, and doesn't


sign up to the freedom of movement. Yes, you can. Where? Before I became


of Parliament, I rang YouGov, and we went across the whole of


Scandinavia, there is an single market in services, but we did


really well. Elon musk has just sold $10 billion of cars in three days...


I just want a country. We are the first large economy in the world.


Name a country. My point is we are a massive economy, let's not talk


ourselves down. What I'm asking for is a country that has this amazing


deal and status and doesn't have freedom of movement. There isn't


one? No, but we can have a trade deal like we have a special


relationship with other countries, we can have a trade deal. There


isn't a country that has ever been able to negotiate such a deal. We


are not Switzerland or Norway, where the fifth largest economy in the


world. But you want us to be Switzerland or Norway. No, I don't.


Let's be strong, the New World is about innovation, not about


population. I'm going to have to stop you there because we will run


out of the rest of the show! The question for today


is all about Shakespeare - Nadhim of course is the MP


for Stratford-on-Avon so this should It is, of course, 400 years


since the Bard "shuffled But that hasn't deterred us


here at the Daily Politics. We can cross now to our little


theatre in the sky and speak to William Shakespeare and he has


a little quiz for us. I wrote "A fool doth think


he is wise, but the wise man knows So do you know which of these four


European Union countries was not Spain, Portugal, the Czech


Republic or Croatia? Thank you very much, and at the end


of the show, you can give us a correct answer. It is always


debatable. There was a flurry activity over


the weekend as all sides in the junior doctors' dispute tried


to work out a way of avoiding Hospitals across England are busy


making final preparations to cope with the walkout


that starts tomorrow. As things stand, junior doctors


in England will walk out from all hospital services,


including accident and emergency, between 8am and 5pm


on Tuesday and Wednesday. Essential care will be provided


by consultants and other senior staff during the strike,


and NHS England has said that A departments will remain open


throughout the strike whilst GP surgeries may "experience


greater demand." NHS England says over a hundred


thousand outpatient appointments and 12,000 planned


operations will be delayed. Over the weekend, Shadow Health


Secretary Heidi Alexander organised a compromise proposal


which would see the new doctors' contracts piloted first,


the plan was also endorsed by the former Conservative health


minister, Dr Dan Poulter, Norman Lamb from the Liberal


Democrats and the SNP's However, Health Secretary Jeremy


Hunt rejected the idea, arguing the Government had always planned


to phase in the new contract Mr Hunt wrote to the British Medical


Association asking them to call off the strike and asking


for a meeting today. He went on to warn that the strike


"risks the safety of many patients" The BMA responded that


if the imposition of new contracts was removed, the strike


would be called off. Well, joining me now from outside


the Department of Health is Junior Dr David Lonsdale. We will come to


him in a moment. Nadhim Zahawi, no one wants this strike to happen, and


of course over the weekend, a cross-party group of MPs including


former Conservative Minister proposed a compromise that wouldn't


stop the new contracts, but at least might have stopped strike. Why


wasn't it considered? The strike is deeply irresponsible and wrong, and


I hope they think twice about it. The reason from my reading of the


fact is that the contract is that 11% of junior doctors will be on it


in August, so to have a pilot is unnecessary, there is already a


phasing. And it will cause unnecessary delay. If you are


already phrasing it, why would you slow things down? Because it might


have meant the strike wouldn't have happened! The whole contract is


agreed other than Saturday pay, so the only thing remaining outstanding


Saturday pay. The BMA refused to sit with Jeremy and talk about Saturday


pay, and that is why we are where we are. If they just sit down and talk


about Saturday pay, that is where we are. Everything else is agreed. Lets


talk to David Lonsdale. Has the BMA made it a precondition that until


and less Jeremy Hunt actually removes the imposition of the


contract, you won't even meet? That's the thing that needs to


happen to talks to resume, but I will come back to that. If you are


going to have negotiations, meaningful negotiations, they cannot


be done with a gun to your head, and that is what imposition is. That is


set by a political timetable, there is no need to do it in August. It


could be at any stage throughout the year, are the important thing with a


contract is that it is right, proper, finished, safe from patients


unfair to doctors. Watch your guest has said which is that it is all


about Saturday pay, that is nonsense. Jeremy Hunt wrote over the


weekend and outline four points over which there were still work to be


done, and these include issues over working conditions the doctors in


terms of hours worked, conditions over people with families,


specifically therefore referring to the equality impact assessment which


says this contract will disproportionately affect women


trainees, which is a disgrace in 2016, as well as other issues to do


with Drs' training. It is farcical that we are in a situation where


Jeremy Hunt has issued a letter acknowledging there is still work to


be done but he won't sit down and talked about it. What kind of


situation is this? Let's put that to Nadhim Zahawi. Jeremy Hunt is not


handling this in anyway to take the heat out of what has become an


extremely poisonous argument between junior doctors and the Health


Secretary. I think he has been very patient, this has been going on for


years, this negotiation. What we have to do is look at what is


substantive that is left, which is the Saturday pay. Answer the


question from Dagan Lonsdale, that the contract hasn't been formulated


properly. They are refusing because of Saturday pay, that is the crux of


it. The question you have to put to them is that we could get back to


the negotiating table. So, why do you have a precondition, when you


are talking about potentially putting patients' lives at risk with


this all-out strike the first time in the history of the NHS, you even


sit down and meet the Department of Health or Jeremy Hunt to talk about


these contracts? For starters, I am not a requisite


stove of the BMA, I am just a junior doctor, but your guest has repeated


the government spin about it being Saturday pay, despite Jeremy Hunt


writing to say that it is about four other things. It is a complete


nonsense to say it is about Saturday pay. There is more work to be done.


I would draw your attention to the letter from their BMA saying that


all that needed to happen for the strike to be lifted is for Jeremy


Hunt to lift his position. We have been prepared to work with others


through this but the government have not been. I take your point, but the


BMA is using that as a precondition. So you are blocking a potential


negotiation here on your side, which is why the government sources are


now saying that this is a political strike and you are trying to bring


down the government. Are you? That is complete nonsense. This has never


been about personality. Junior doctors have always said they want


to work with the government to keep the NHS as a world-class


organisation. We need to have an honest and frank discussion about


what we can afford in 2016, in times of austerity, set by this


government, and what we cannot do is simply click our fingers and say


that a seven-day NHS will happen without extra funding and staff,


because it meets our manifesto commitment. What the government has


to do with manifestos is have a plan to implement them after they are


elected. That is the problem here. The Conservative government has been


elected on the back of a promise for which they have no


funding or planning. Doctors are being risen over for political


expediency, and that is the problem, because doctors do not want to be on


strike, they want to work with the government and make the health care


system sustainable and safer for patients. Let's now Nadhim Zahawi


add to that. -- let Nadhim Zahawi answer that. We talked about the


manifesto. We pledged to deliver this with more resources, ?10


billion more. That is what we have delivered. Last week, we announced


the investment in 5000 more GPs, and we want to talk to junior doctors. I


think Jeremy has gone the extra mile, to say... Then left the


imposition of the contract. Let's talk about what is the stand to have


left on the table, just the Saturday pay. -- what is substantive. This


proposal, Chris Bryant, was there anything in that? It has been


rejected here by its Nadhim Zahawi because the contracts were going to


be phased in any way. Was it political opportunism? Everyone


wants an opportunity to stop the strike. The best way to do that is


to make sure there is a negotiated settlement. I point out that it is


not just the Labour Party, it is also Dan Botha, who was in Jeremy


Hunt's health team as a Tory MP, and is a doctor. But the point I make is


that we're not having the strike in Wales, which is where the NHS is


run, because we have not decided to to war. But that is making a party


political. But that is just a fact. The doctor spoke very well. With the


?2 million top-down reorganisation in the last Parliament, it seems


like the government has gone to war with the NHS. Dagan Lonsdale, is


Jeremy Hunt wrong when he says the strike risks the safety of many


patients? That is what most people watching will want to know. As one


of the papers said today, don't be sick tomorrow. I don't like this


sensationalism in the media because we have to be clear about what is


happening tomorrow. It is nine hours were care will be provided by the


more senior doctors. I cannot talk to you about what is happening at


other hospitals. But people will be at risk? I don't believe they will


be at my hospital where there are 100 doctors prepared for this event,


the most qualified in the country. Over the weekend we saw letters with


thousands of consultants saying they will keep patients safe and if


people are unwell and need to come to A tomorrow, they should do so.


It is wrong for the government to scaremonger when emergency care will


be provided by the most experienced doctors in the country. Can I come


back to the point about ?10 million? It is complete government spent to


suggest that this is new funding from the NHS. It is funding that was


not included in the manifesto pledge. The reason the talk has been


derailed is because the government has wedged in a seven-day NHS on a


cost neutral basis which will not happen. It is completely impossible


without extra funding and staffing. Dagan Lonsdale, thank you very much.


And that strike is going ahead. In the run-up to the election on May


the 5th, we will be bringing you details of all the contests


including those that involve legislators. Today, it is the turn


of Northern Ireland and we have been out on the campaign trail to see


what the parties are offering and to ask if anything much will change.


There have been arguments over setting the budget, together with


coming to terms with the past, threatening to derail devolution in


Northern Ireland. But despite one party withdrawing from the


power-sharing executive last summer, Stormont has seen the longest period


of default rule since the Good Friday agreement. Northern Ireland


goes to the polls in a few weeks' time and there are 108 seats up for


grabs in there. The parties are just kicking off their campaigns. I


better get a move on if I am going to get around them all. First up,


the manifesto launch of the biggest party. Arlene Foster is the leader


of the DUP and the current first Minister of Northern Ireland. Given


that the system is setup to make sure that all sections of the


community represented around the top table, I her if anything is likely


to change at this election. We are in a unimaginably coalition and one


of the policies we set up is to move to a voluntary coalition because we


think that is the way that it should work in Northern Ireland. But you


are right, it will be the same parties back again but depending on


their strength, we will see how many ministries they will be able to take


in. I have a different vision for Northern Ireland than Martin


McGuinness, for example, so it is important that people understand


those plans. We are late, come on. Moments later, it is the DUP, who


quit the executive last year amid concerns about the provisional IRA.


We have had a devolved government for 18 years and it is about the


economy and health


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