26/04/2016 Daily Politics


26/04/2016

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:37.

Junior doctors in England have begun their first all-out strike

:00:38.:00:40.

As doctors take to the picket lines, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says

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he's not itching for a fight but won't be backing down.

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We'll talk to former Health Secretary Ken Clarke.

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Voters in Scotland head to the polls in just over a week's time -

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we'll have the latest from the campaign trail and ask

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if the SNP have delivered on their promises.

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Jeremy Corbyn's support for the EU is backed by the vast

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majority of his MPs - but one backbencher claims it

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could cost the Labour Party swathes of votes.

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And Big Ben is to fall silent while the famous clock

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tower is repaired - the experts say it's suffering

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from everything from subsidence to asbestos to rats.

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Historian Dan Cruickshank will be here to tell us more.

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Regular viewers will know that in recent months we've been joined

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by the leaders of Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives

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Well today, last and by no means least, we're joined by a former

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Scottish National Party leader - and now MP - Alex Salmond.

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First today, jurors deciding what caused the deaths of 96

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Liverpool fans in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster have

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delivered their conclusions after an inquest lasting two years.

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A crush in an overcrowded standing-only section

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at Hillsborough Stadium in Sheffield at an FA Cup semifinal

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match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest

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Families celebrated after the inquest. It was the longest case

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heard by a jury in British legal history.

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It concluded that the Liverpool supporters were unlawfully killed.

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The jurors also found that police error caused or contributed

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to a dangerous situation at the match, while the behaviour

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of fans did not contribute to the dangerous situation

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We are looking at these pictures, the emotional scenes, as you would

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expect, from the families. They have waited a long time for this day.

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What are your thoughts? It is an extraordinarily emotional day. Just

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imagine, these people have been campaigning for 27 years to get the

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justice, the declaration that has been made today that their relatives

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and loved ones were not responsible for their own deaths. What has made

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that whole process quite disgraceful has been the systematic cover-up

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that took place to try to disguise what really happened, the tendency

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to lump the blame on the fans. Now, in that sense, those women and men

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who have been studying this for two or three years have indicated the

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campaign. That would mean a lot to the families over such a long

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period, where there were indications that the fans might have contributed

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in some way to the disaster. And also that jury has said that there

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were various groups of people, bodies, that were responsible in

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some way or may have contributed to that disaster. Will that be enough?

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As I understand, English procedure, the verdict of unlawful death puts a

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presumption on the Crown Prosecution Service to bring forward criminal

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proceedings. It would be unlikely on that basis for this to be the end of

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the process. However, I think it must mark a period, I would imagine

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that these relatives are driving -- they're driving wish over this last

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quarter of a century has been to clear the names and reputations of

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loved ones who died. In that sense, this is a position of closure, but I

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suspect that, given the vigour of the verdict, and we must accept it,

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people had studied this for two years, they have gone into this in

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very, very close detail, given the vigour of the verdict... I had to

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say, I am really interested in an emphasis shifting to the cover-up.

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We know that hundreds of police statements were falsified, we know

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there are implications that this went right to the top of the

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political process, there must now be a focal point on how that happened.

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I cannot read the minds of the jury, that is inspect people studying bat

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and knowing the extent of the misinformation that came out is one

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of the reasons for the vigour of the verdict delivered. The Independent

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Police Complaints Commission will investigate the claims that you have

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spoken about, certainly, they cover-up, and there will be

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political statements over the coming days?

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Now, the first all-out doctors' strike in the history of the NHS

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At 8am this morning thousands of junior doctors walked out of both

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routine and emergency care in protest at the imposition

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It's the first time services including A, maternity

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and intensive care have been hit by the dispute,

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although NHS bosses believe they have plans in place to ensure

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patients needing emergency care are safe.

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Nearly 13,000 routine operations and more than 100,000 appointments

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have been postponed to free up other staff.

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The stoppage ends at five o'clock this afternoon,

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with further all-out strike action due tomorrow.

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Well, to find out what's happening on one of the picket lines we can go

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now to our correspondent Smitha Mundasad outside

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We can see junior doctors and their supporters behind you, what has it

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been like this morning? I was on this exact spot of three weeks ago,

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and there are a lot more supporters today, a lot more junior doctors, it

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is a lot more noisy. As you can hear, lots of cars beeping their

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horns. The message from the junior doc as is the same, they do not

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think this contract is fair, they have told me that they have walked

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out in clear conscience because they know what they are doing, they say,

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at least, is for the better good at the NHS, and there are senior staff

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could bring their jobs today. Inside the hospital, the chief executive

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told me that the accident and emergency is less busy than usual,

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even though there are lots of senior staff who have been trained up to do

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some of the junior jobs that they may have forgotten how to do. But he

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also told me that he thinks that, perhaps, opinions are changing and

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the mood is changing. 122 junior doctors could have gone on strike,

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23 cross the picket line and went to work. That is a much higher

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proportion than the previous strikes. He wonders whether perhaps

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some junior doctors feel that this is a step too far.

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Another thing he told me is that he wonders about the consultant

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support. It has been very good so far, they have been willing to do

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all the jobs that juniors have not done today, but he will how long the

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goodwill will last. And ultimately, he says, the fact that juniors are

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routed to date, they have walked out of emergency care, out of the most

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pressurised areas of the hospital, like intensive care, maternity care

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and crash teams, suggests that most sites have not done quite enough to

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stop this dispute. He is urging them to go back around the table, because

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patients are coming to him saying, I took the day off work to get my

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planned operation that has now been postponed. Saying all this, he says

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that at his hospital things are going as planned, very few

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operations, around 40, have been postponed. Actor you in the studio.

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Thank you, Smitha. Well, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt

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is showing no signs of backing down in the dispute with junior doctors

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in England - here he is No union, however powerful,

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however good they are at eliciting public sympathy, has the right

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to stop an elected government implementing the promises

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that we made in our manifesto. And we know, and the public know,

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that you can't choose which day of the week you get ill,

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and that is why it's incredibly important that we do

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have a seven-day NHS, that we have even, high-quality

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care across all days. That is what we want to do,

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and frankly I think it's what most doctors want to do as well,

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which is why the right thing for the BMA leadership

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would be to sit down, to negotiate, talk sensibly,

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and not to have these wholly unprecedented

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and unnecessary strikes. And for more information

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and analysis of the issues in this dispute, go to the BBC News

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website at We did ask to speak to someone

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from the Department of Health However, fear not -

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because we're joined by the next best thing,

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former Health Secretary Ken Clarke. Wellcome to the programme. Fear and

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trembling in the heart of the viewers! I am sure. Last night, one

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Government sores compared this to the miners' strike, saying it is a

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political strike, like the miners' strike, it has to be defeated. Does

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that help a situation like this? The God I don't know who said that. I

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don't see it in that way. It is a disaster and a tragedy that the

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health service is being faced by this. I don't understand why however

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many junior doctors taking part are taking part, they are all nice,

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intelligent young people... They can't all have been misled by the

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BMA. The only thing on the table is a pay claim. The BMA has never

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actually had a strike like this ever. Every previous Health

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Secretary has had battles with them. I had great battles, they did not

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threaten me with a strike. They are striking over a pay claim which they

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want waited to make it more expensive at the weekends, so most

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NHS trusts will not be able to afford to go toward seven-day

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working. How do you withdraw urgent care in support of that? All those

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other stuff about supporting the NHS and so one, you can talk about that

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with them, but it is nothing to do with this strike. We will talk about

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that in a moment, but we're in a position, as you say, it is

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historical to have junior doctors on strike, it never happens in your

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time, and certainly not an all-out strike. Is that the fault of the

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Government? Doctors would not have withdrawn, only a handful would have

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contemplated withdrawing urgent treatment in my day. They held names

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that Nye Bevan, they held names at me, they said I would not take

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medical advice, they never threatened ordinary strike action.

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It has been escalated by the sort of language that the Government has

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used. It is a source, we cannot say who it is, accusing the BMA and

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junior doctors of blackmailing the Government and trying to bring it

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down will only fuel the anger. It is a language that I don't think Jeremy

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Hunt users, he never has, and I don't use it. What we cannot do is

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put money into paying a pay claim back into militant action when the

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patient services need money and the service needs to be developed to go

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to a seven day basis. This strike is about more money and many paid in a

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way that means not many of them will have to work at weekends. You

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clearly disagree, but there is a strong argument saying that the

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junior doctors have moved the central argument of this dispute

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from their perspective. They said it was about compensating pay on a

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Saturday if they were going to move to a seven-day week, now it seems to

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be a much broader issue but, in their mind, saving the NHS. The

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Government cannot back down about? Kennel Club, a hugely controversial

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Health Secretary, never had a strike, but Jeremy Hunt said this is

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about who governs. That macro Kenneth Clarke, a hugely

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controversial Health Secretary. This is about whether a Health Secretary

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can achieve consensus with health service staff. In Scotland we are

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moving to a seven-day health service by consensus, without tearing up the

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junior doctors' contract is. If it is possible for the Scottish Health

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Secretary to do but, why is it not possible for Jeremy Hunt to do it

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without talking like it is a huge constitutional crisis. The only

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crisis is in his department and his management bid. Isn't that the key,

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it is the imposition element that has forced these doctors onto the

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street? In Scotland they have more money, they pay everyone more for

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weekend working, the service delivered to patients is not as good

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as in England. That is not true. They and the Welsh have resisted

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reform over the years. Here, they have been negotiating for three

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years. It is a filibuster. They have no intention of settling. They made

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it quite clear, they are now at the last point. Unless we can to workers

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made so expensive that the demands upon junior doctors to do it will be

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fewer and further between -- unless weekend work is made so expensive.

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The service needs a seven-day work, it needs money spent on services.

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But it is trying to get people on site, trying to get consensus. Did

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you think using the language of imposition, we will force this

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contract on you, before there was willingness to negotiate, was wise?

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Going back to the 1980s, I have had disputes with practically every

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union known to man... Is that a badge of honour for you? The

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politics of the 70s and 80s was about industrial relations. The

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reality... I never had a situation like this. That is exactly the

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point. If you had been Health Secretary you would have had the

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sense to see the cross-party of their earlier this week as a

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potential way to have a pilot study. You out of date about the Scottish

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health service in every respect. Let's take the four a la target in

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accident and emergency, the Scottish health service performs better than

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England. You missed your own targets. Because they are more

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exacting. On the former -- on the four our target, the Scottish health

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service is performing substantially better than the English, which is

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one of the key aspects at the heart of it. Perhaps this is because the

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junior doctors and other stuff are more motivated in Scotland because

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they do not have a Government trying to claim the arrow gauged in a

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campaign to bring down the Government.

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Is it appropriate that the Scottish Government has been trying to

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recruit English doctors to work during the disagreement? I'm just

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off the picket line at Saint Thomas Hospital, and there were a number of

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junior doctors on that picket line talking about, well, if this Health

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Secretary does not see sense, get around the table and come to an

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agreement, they will be looking to go to Scotland or Australia or

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elsewhere. That should be an example to the people of England, who are

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firmly behind the junior doctors at the present moment, that you can do

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things in a better, more consensual way, and if we can do it in

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Scotland, they can do it in England as well. It is entirely reasonable,

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if junior doctors are being treated in that way by Jeremy Hunt, that

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they will look elsewhere. Or they are just resisting the reform that

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Ken Clarke is talking about. Is there a feeling in government, I

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know you are not in the government, but fingers being crossed that

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public opinion will turn against the doctors? It is still in favour in

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terms of the majority of people polled, but fewer than before the

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all-out strike. Is that what you are banking on? I think it will happen,

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and the majority of junior doctors will not take part in the strike,

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not withdraw urgent and emergency care. I do not think that is

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necessarily a helpful development, because Jeremy and the Government

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are trying to take the militancy and bitterness out of this. Come on,

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Ken! By making clear there are concessions, by making clear that

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they will attack the wider things that are being talked about on the

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picket lines, their working conditions, reducing hours, no-one

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is getting a pay reduction, 75% getting a pay rise. But one is faced

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with this rather baffling believe that they are saving the NHS.

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Because both sides have hardened their lines, and everybody seems to

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be entrenched. The junior doctors and the public will be low weight if

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they make it so hard. I am putting the question, it would be difficult

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to prove this, if somebody loses their life today, that it was down

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to the strike, but public opinion could well slide away from junior

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doctors. I and I come in today from the BBC health correspondent, who

:18:34.:18:36.

must know something about it, there is an argument that things will be

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safer because the emergency situation is being covered by more

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senior doctors. As of today, a majority of junior doctors are on

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strike and a majority of the public in England are supporting their

:18:52.:18:55.

case. I will tell you why it is, because the public know the first

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all-out strike in history, the first strike for 30 years in the National

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Health Service, there must be some really important reason that has

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driven these people, who have committed their lives to the welfare

:19:07.:19:11.

of others, to engage in this sort of activity, as opposed to a fly by

:19:12.:19:19.

night Health Secretary who was causing chaos. He says he is going

:19:20.:19:22.

to stay. He says it is his last big job in government, let's hope so!

:19:23.:19:27.

They are taking a firm stand on something that is pricking

:19:28.:19:31.

consciences on the picket line, but where does it end? If there was the

:19:32.:19:36.

idea of an in Devon and strike, and it has been touted, surely the

:19:37.:19:40.

Government could not survive that? -- indefinite. The idea that

:19:41.:19:45.

militancy keeps rising, talking about a permanent withdrawal, it is

:19:46.:19:50.

not clear that it would be a permanent withdrawal, continuous

:19:51.:19:53.

withdrawal of emergency and urgent care. The idea that this will not

:19:54.:19:58.

damage patients, patients will not mind having operations cancelled,

:19:59.:20:02.

those members of the public who say they support the junior doctors, as

:20:03.:20:07.

in most strikes, and in the days we used to have strikes all the time,

:20:08.:20:10.

they just want the Government and the health service to run normally.

:20:11.:20:15.

Why can't the Government sort it out? The idea that you give away to

:20:16.:20:20.

strike with a pay claim, then half the other staff. -- staff will

:20:21.:20:28.

threaten militant action for the same generous terms that the junior

:20:29.:20:32.

doctors are trying to demand. You cannot wait until the public finally

:20:33.:20:35.

realised that this money is being, you know, taken away from patient

:20:36.:20:41.

services to buy off militant industrial action. They are nice

:20:42.:20:45.

people, junior doctors, they should be prepared to sit down and talk

:20:46.:20:50.

about what they actually think is better for the National Health

:20:51.:20:54.

Service and patients. Meanwhile, the strike is going head and will resume

:20:55.:20:58.

tomorrow. Thank you very much, Ken Clarke.

:20:59.:20:59.

And it's all about the SNP's latest election billboard.

:21:00.:21:03.

"Don't just hope for a better Scotland, vote for one."

:21:04.:21:06.

But several people have pointed out that the slogan is almost identical

:21:07.:21:09.

to the one used by another famous political figure.

:21:10.:21:12.

Was it Donald Trump, George Galloway,

:21:13.:21:14.

Margaret Thatcher or Lyndon B Johnson?

:21:15.:21:18.

Alex Salmond will give us the correct answer.

:21:19.:21:24.

Now, in recent weeks in Scotland, we've seen one party leader

:21:25.:21:27.

riding a buffalo, another on a children's slide,

:21:28.:21:28.

It can only mean one thing - yes, the elections

:21:29.:21:34.

to the Scottish Parliament are just around the corner,

:21:35.:21:37.

and our Adam's been on the campaign trail to find out more.

:21:38.:21:40.

The Scottish Parliament now has powers to vary the rate

:21:41.:21:45.

and threshold for income tax, and so tax has become a massive

:21:46.:21:48.

issue in the election campaign being fought

:21:49.:21:51.

The SNP is running a presidential-style campaign

:21:52.:21:58.

I've just been handed a Nicola Sturgeon stress ball.

:21:59.:22:07.

It doesn't look much like her, though, does it?

:22:08.:22:10.

She's stressing that she won't pass on the tax cut for people

:22:11.:22:16.

on the 40p rate that George Osborne is doing down south.

:22:17.:22:19.

I'm going to get my photo with you, though.

:22:20.:22:21.

How come in the general election you said you wanted a 50p rate

:22:22.:22:29.

of tax, but you're not going to introduce one now,

:22:30.:22:32.

and I argued that across the UK in the general election.

:22:33.:22:38.

We don't have powers in Scotland over tax avoidance on income tax,

:22:39.:22:41.

so if we introduce it just in Scotland, there is a danger

:22:42.:22:44.

that we end up losing money from it, because people will perhaps

:22:45.:22:47.

take their income out of Scotland or transfer it into,

:22:48.:22:49.

Labour's Kezia Dugdale has shaken things up with a radical range

:22:50.:22:54.

of tax pledges designed to outflank the SNP from the left.

:22:55.:22:58.

Firstly, we will reintroduce our top rate of tax, a 50p rate,

:22:59.:23:02.

which will ask those people who earn over ?150,000 a year

:23:03.:23:05.

But that alone is not enough to stop the cuts.

:23:06.:23:10.

So that's why we're advocating using the basic rate of income tax,

:23:11.:23:13.

putting that up by 1p, 1p higher than George Osborne and the Tories.

:23:14.:23:20.

And when he's not manhandling people's pets,

:23:21.:23:22.

the Lib Dems' Scottish leader is eyeing a tax rise, too.

:23:23.:23:25.

What you get with the Liberal Democrats is a big investment

:23:26.:23:27.

in education, with a penny on income tax.

:23:28.:23:30.

But what is terribly disappointing in this campaign

:23:31.:23:32.

is the timidity and caution of the SNP.

:23:33.:23:35.

They've been banging on about more powers for decades,

:23:36.:23:39.

and what do they do when they get those more powers?

:23:40.:23:41.

To make things a little bit more confusing,

:23:42.:23:48.

the Scottish Greens are suggesting a new 60p rate,

:23:49.:23:51.

and they want to split the basic rate in two.

:23:52.:23:55.

It's not enough just to say the basic rate

:23:56.:23:58.

would go up or down a bit - we want to break it into two,

:23:59.:24:02.

an upper and a lower band, so that people on a below full-time

:24:03.:24:06.

average annual salary save money from their tax bill,

:24:07.:24:08.

and those who can afford to pay more do so.

:24:09.:24:12.

Keeping it simple, that lover of comedy photo ops -

:24:13.:24:14.

the Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson,

:24:15.:24:16.

who wants taxes to stay the same across the UK.

:24:17.:24:19.

Except her opposite number in Cardiff

:24:20.:24:21.

The Welsh Conservatives can take their own decisions

:24:22.:24:28.

about what they do, in the same way that we do here.

:24:29.:24:31.

We would love to, over the medium-term -

:24:32.:24:33.

and I have made that plain - aspire to a tax cut for Scots

:24:34.:24:36.

But what we're seeing at this election is that has

:24:37.:24:39.

to be earned, those sorts of tax cuts have to be earned.

:24:40.:24:42.

We saw just yesterday from the labour market statistics

:24:43.:24:44.

that we have higher unemployment in Scotland, you've got lower growth

:24:45.:24:47.

in Scotland, we need to be able to grow our economy,

:24:48.:24:50.

the amount of money that's coming into the pot,

:24:51.:24:53.

and then we can look at tax cuts for people.

:24:54.:24:55.

They know all about comparing Scotland and England

:24:56.:24:57.

at this shopping centre, because it's right on the border.

:24:58.:25:00.

We're British, I know we're Scottish,

:25:01.:25:05.

that we should pay British taxes, there shouldn't be a difference.

:25:06.:25:08.

Because people will go from Scotland down to England,

:25:09.:25:10.

I'm thinking of moving back to England if it happens.

:25:11.:25:14.

Are you? Yeah.

:25:15.:25:15.

I don't know, it's just like we're paying more tax

:25:16.:25:19.

I don't mind the taxes being higher, the 1p or whatever it is,

:25:20.:25:24.

because we need it for the schools. We need to invest in the NHS.

:25:25.:25:27.

If you put the rates up, or taxes up, if the money

:25:28.:25:30.

is going to good places like NHS, schools etc, I don't mind,

:25:31.:25:34.

because they're desperately needing it, you know?

:25:35.:25:36.

You're happy to pay more? I would.

:25:37.:25:39.

where income tax could end up being really quite different.

:25:40.:25:43.

Unless the SNP win, and then it'll only be a little bit different.

:25:44.:25:49.

That was Adam, and we're joined now from Glasgow

:25:50.:25:52.

by the BBC's Scotland editor, Sarah Smith.

:25:53.:25:54.

Sarah Beck, income tax, is that the central battle ground? It certainly

:25:55.:26:09.

is, because it is the first time the Scottish Parliament will have the

:26:10.:26:12.

ability to vary interest rates and can make them different from the

:26:13.:26:15.

rest of the United Kingdom, and there is a clear difference between

:26:16.:26:18.

the political parties, as you heard, about the policies of what they

:26:19.:26:23.

would do with income tax. The one thing that seems certain is that

:26:24.:26:25.

there will be different rates being paid by people here than in the rest

:26:26.:26:31.

of Britain. What about the battle for second place, if you like, if we

:26:32.:26:35.

look at Labour and the Conservatives? How is it playing

:26:36.:26:39.

out? Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, takes an

:26:40.:26:43.

interesting line. She says vote for her for a stronger opposition, she

:26:44.:26:47.

is not claiming she will be the First Minister, she wants to come

:26:48.:26:50.

second and will be a stronger opposition if she is the Leader of

:26:51.:26:54.

the Opposition to the SNP. She is taking it for granted that the SNP

:26:55.:26:59.

will win. We would never do that, because although the polls can get

:27:00.:27:03.

the margin of error on, the SNP are 30 points shared in the election. It

:27:04.:27:07.

seems likely they might form the next government, which is a problem

:27:08.:27:11.

for Kezia Dugdale of Scottish Labour. She has to say she is

:27:12.:27:15.

fighting to become First Minister, that there will be a Labour

:27:16.:27:19.

government, but it does not seem entirely credible. Ruth Davidson may

:27:20.:27:23.

be onto something, saying vote for a strong opposition, rather than

:27:24.:27:26.

saying you can and sit Nicola Sturgeon. There must be some cracks

:27:27.:27:32.

in the SNP campaign. They are being put aside for being too timid on a

:27:33.:27:37.

income tax policy. They have fought for decades for more powers in the

:27:38.:27:40.

Scottish Parliament, and now they have the power to vary income tax

:27:41.:27:44.

is, they are just talking about not passing on a tax cut for higher

:27:45.:27:50.

earners. Labour are saying they would put 1p on basic rate, they say

:27:51.:27:54.

they want to grasp the new powers of the Scottish Parliament and put them

:27:55.:28:01.

into effect. Well done, Sarah Smith, for withstanding the wind! You're

:28:02.:28:05.

being too timid, Alex Salmond, you have never used the powers you have

:28:06.:28:11.

a nine years, why not? Well, it was progressive, because we did not have

:28:12.:28:15.

the power to vary the income tax of the better off without changing the

:28:16.:28:22.

income tax of the lower paid. The SNP divided the House of Commons

:28:23.:28:26.

over the tax cut for the better off, one half of why Ian Duncan is it

:28:27.:28:30.

resigned. The Labour Party abstained on that boat on the 22nd of March,

:28:31.:28:34.

and it is quite right and very exciting that Nicola Sturgeon will

:28:35.:28:37.

now have the power not to pass on that tax cut to the better off so

:28:38.:28:42.

was that money can be invested in public services. It would be

:28:43.:28:45.

ludicrous to take the position that we are going to tax the lowest paid

:28:46.:28:48.

in the country with an extra penny on the income tax, that is not an

:28:49.:28:53.

alternative to austerity - that is austerity. Let's just go through

:28:54.:28:58.

some of the key policy areas, the SNP launched their manifesto in

:28:59.:29:02.

Edinburgh last week with Nicola Sturgeon, calling at her job

:29:03.:29:05.

application for the post of First Minister.

:29:06.:29:07.

But the SNP have been in power in Holyrood for nine years now.

:29:08.:29:10.

So what is their record in government?

:29:11.:29:12.

On education, the SNP have protected free university tuition

:29:13.:29:14.

But critics point to cuts to further-education colleges

:29:15.:29:17.

as evidence that their record on education isn't all rosy.

:29:18.:29:22.

On healthcare, the SNP have scrapped prescription charges and protected

:29:23.:29:25.

free personal care for those aged 65 and over who need it.

:29:26.:29:32.

But they have regularly failed to meet

:29:33.:29:34.

their own A target on waiting times.

:29:35.:29:36.

The SNP government have frozen council tax rates

:29:37.:29:39.

But they originally planned to replace this with local income tax -

:29:40.:29:45.

those hardest hit by unfair Tory welfare cuts.

:29:46.:29:54.

But the Scottish Labour Party and Scottish Lib Dems say

:29:55.:29:57.

they could give public services a boost

:29:58.:29:58.

Writer, well, let's get back to that issue. Why don't you do what people,

:29:59.:30:15.

even in that film, were demanding, which is to raise income tax. You

:30:16.:30:23.

said we have protected free education, we introduced free

:30:24.:30:26.

education in Scotland. We scrapped the backend Jewish and fees. I was

:30:27.:30:30.

First Minister at the time, I remember. -- we scrapped the

:30:31.:30:41.

backends tuition fees. But these are not the target set by the Scottish

:30:42.:30:46.

Government. The original target was 95%, as we were improving things we

:30:47.:30:52.

set the target of 98%, so the only reason we have not met the target is

:30:53.:30:57.

we increased it. It was too ambitious and you have not held to

:30:58.:31:02.

it. We have increased performance by 8%. The reason the Scottish

:31:03.:31:05.

Government is popular, and that Nicola Sturgeon is outstandingly

:31:06.:31:09.

popular, is that people know about. Just say we have not met its target

:31:10.:31:14.

is to ignore the fact that A times are eight cent better than when we

:31:15.:31:19.

came to target. If you state a target, that is what we will judge

:31:20.:31:25.

you against. Bad is perhaps the BBC judgment, I am more interested in

:31:26.:31:31.

the judgment of the Scottish people. The SNP has a positive approval

:31:32.:31:35.

rating. Which other government do you know of, nine years into office?

:31:36.:31:41.

About it is not factually wrong, I accept that you have improved the

:31:42.:31:45.

target, but you improved it, you missed it, we have judged you on

:31:46.:31:49.

that. I will come to education. The

:31:50.:31:56.

statement about free education was slightly misleading, by normal BBC

:31:57.:32:02.

standards. Which we uphold to the highest level! Except during the

:32:03.:32:05.

referendum. You could not resist it. In terms of

:32:06.:32:14.

tuition fees, has the focus on not charging for tuition fees damaged

:32:15.:32:16.

other areas of education in Scotland? Lots of the statistics

:32:17.:32:23.

show that people from poorest backgrounds have suffered because of

:32:24.:32:27.

closure of further education colleges, reduction in teaching

:32:28.:32:31.

grants. I will say why this is wrong. The focus is on the number of

:32:32.:32:36.

places, but the way you measure students in colleges in Scotland is

:32:37.:32:41.

not by places, it is by full-time equivalent teaching, like-for-like.

:32:42.:32:47.

If you were to change four two our courses are weak into one full-time

:32:48.:32:52.

course, that is not four courses going into one course, it is more

:32:53.:32:57.

teaching. The SNP has upheld the full-time equivalent teaching time.

:32:58.:33:01.

Let's look at the numbers of students. You are looking at the

:33:02.:33:06.

number of students, we are looking at courses, this is a different

:33:07.:33:13.

thing. These figures are from the Educational Institute Of Scotland,,

:33:14.:33:16.

since you came to power in 2007 and wanted to increase the number of

:33:17.:33:20.

students, the number of students in Scottish colleges has fallen by 152

:33:21.:33:38.

-- 150 2000. -- 150 2000. 92% of schoolchildren in Scotland go onto

:33:39.:33:41.

higher educational work. We have a higher level of achieving that than

:33:42.:33:45.

the rest of the UK. And a larger number of students in higher

:33:46.:33:50.

education. And the high ever number of students in certified and degree

:33:51.:33:54.

level courses. These are the statistics that matter. People in

:33:55.:34:01.

Scotland no... It is not an interpretation. These are respected

:34:02.:34:08.

institute 's judging you. Families in Scotland know the difference it

:34:09.:34:12.

makes to have free education based on ability as opposed to paying

:34:13.:34:18.

?9,000 a year and labelling future generations with this huge burden.

:34:19.:34:24.

Do you accept that further education colleges have suffered? It has

:34:25.:34:27.

benefited certain students, I will put this to you... Effie colleges,

:34:28.:34:33.

we have colleges in Scotland with degree courses, which benefits

:34:34.:34:38.

colleges as well as universities -- FE colleges. They say that the

:34:39.:34:41.

priority of the Scottish Government to prioritise full-time FE causes

:34:42.:34:50.

has had impact on the part-time courses. Children from disadvantaged

:34:51.:34:54.

backgrounds have lost out, the figures are there. I don't accept

:34:55.:34:59.

that, the point of full-time and degree level courses, higher

:35:00.:35:03.

education courses, pursued in colleges as well as universities, it

:35:04.:35:06.

gets people into full-time employment. That is why the record

:35:07.:35:10.

of full-time employment for young people in Scotland is so good in

:35:11.:35:15.

comparison with the rest of the UK. Do you access there are fewer

:35:16.:35:19.

college places than they used to be? -- do you accept? Everybody watching

:35:20.:35:29.

this will understand that two four or five hour courses is entirely

:35:30.:35:32.

different from the degree level course. That is one course, but it

:35:33.:35:36.

might be far more valuable for people to get recognised

:35:37.:35:40.

qualifications to get into work as opposed to having limited two or

:35:41.:35:46.

three hour courses. The Scottish Funding Council says that your

:35:47.:35:49.

record on poorer students at University, despite having free

:35:50.:35:56.

Jewish and the Scottish students, -- despite having free tuition for

:35:57.:36:03.

Scottish students... We are committing to new legislation which

:36:04.:36:08.

is going to make sure that universities respond to the need to

:36:09.:36:12.

have people from deprived backgrounds. Which is something you

:36:13.:36:18.

have not managed to do. The number of students from deprived

:36:19.:36:21.

backgrounds is improving in Scotland, but not at the rate that

:36:22.:36:26.

we would like it to happen. Let's return to taxes. You and many of

:36:27.:36:30.

your colleagues have said you want to protect Scottish public services

:36:31.:36:34.

from Tory cuts at Westminster, why not give public services like

:36:35.:36:38.

schools and hospitals, as the lady said in that film, they need more

:36:39.:36:43.

money, use your tax-raising powers? The proposals put forward will raise

:36:44.:36:47.

an additional 2000 million pounds over the course of the next

:36:48.:36:52.

parliament, which will go into public services. But you do not

:36:53.:36:56.

tackle austerity I taxi the lowest paid in the country, as Labour

:36:57.:37:00.

propose. If you are introducing taxation, you need to make sure it

:37:01.:37:04.

is fire, you do not give tax cuts to the better off. Tax avoidance sounds

:37:05.:37:11.

like an excuse, Alex Hammond. The report suggested that if we did that

:37:12.:37:15.

in Scotland without the powers that Nicola identified and demonstrated,

:37:16.:37:19.

we would end up with less money. Nobody imposes a higher tax to end

:37:20.:37:24.

up with less revenue. You will not do it at the top, you say you do not

:37:25.:37:28.

want to do it at the bottom... We are doing it at the top end by not

:37:29.:37:33.

giving the tax cut that George Osborne introduced in the Budget,

:37:34.:37:37.

which the SNP voted against and the Labour Party sat on my hands. Let's

:37:38.:37:42.

look at other potential areas for raising money to boost public

:37:43.:37:46.

services, which people seem to want. This idea of replacing the council

:37:47.:37:50.

tax with a local income tax, it was in both your 2007 and 2011

:37:51.:37:57.

manifestos, why has it not happened? The 2011 manifesto committed us to a

:37:58.:38:02.

study. You are right about the 2007 manifesto. In 2007 we found we could

:38:03.:38:06.

not get it introduced with the powers that be had. Nicola has

:38:07.:38:11.

followed through on the 2011 manifesto. She has proposed to

:38:12.:38:14.

change the nature of council tax to increase the number of bands, so

:38:15.:38:18.

that higher paid people in better off properties pay more than people

:38:19.:38:30.

across the spectrum. The -- you have frozen the council tax. Every single

:38:31.:38:35.

penny of that, perhaps to an over degree, has been dampened sated by

:38:36.:38:40.

central government. Local authorities in Scotland, who are

:38:41.:38:47.

hard-pressed, have done in comparably better than local

:38:48.:38:50.

authorities in England and Wales. They also say they have been starved

:38:51.:38:54.

of cash and have had to struggle. The garden let's accept that it is a

:38:55.:39:00.

tight spending regime imposed by Tory and coalition governments, and

:39:01.:39:03.

Labour before them, but local authorities in Scotland have been

:39:04.:39:08.

much better funded than their counterparts in England and Wales.

:39:09.:39:12.

You said that the referendum was a once in a generation boat, will you

:39:13.:39:16.

rule out another referendum in the next five years? It is not up to me,

:39:17.:39:20.

it isn't too Nicola and the Scottish people. Nicola has identified that

:39:21.:39:25.

if we were dragged out of the EU against the will of the Scottish

:39:26.:39:29.

people, that would be a change in the tube and circumstances

:39:30.:39:35.

justifying another pole. -- a change in circumstances justifying another

:39:36.:39:42.

poll. Our position in Europe is being jeopardised by London

:39:43.:39:46.

decisions. In the general election last year, Nicola said explicitly,

:39:47.:39:51.

again on the BBC, and the people of Scotland, hearing that commitment,

:39:52.:39:56.

returned 56 out of 59 Scottish constituencies as SNP members. What

:39:57.:40:02.

happened to the other three? More on that when we get there!

:40:03.:40:03.

Now, as we've been discussing, next week on the 5th of May,

:40:04.:40:06.

voters will be going to the polls all over the UK, including at 125

:40:07.:40:09.

Councils and councillors can come in all shapes and sizes,

:40:10.:40:12.

and today we're going to have a look at some of the most remarkable.

:40:13.:40:16.

West Somerset has the smallest local council by population,

:40:17.:40:18.

Birmingham has the largest council population,

:40:19.:40:27.

Of the 10,399 candidates standing for election, 66%,

:40:28.:40:31.

The average age of a councillor is over 60 years old,

:40:32.:40:42.

The youngest councillor in England is Liberal Democrat Isabelle Murray,

:40:43.:40:47.

who was just 18 years old when elected to Seaford Town

:40:48.:40:49.

So that was the youngest, but let's now speak

:40:50.:40:57.

He is, we believe, the longest-serving borough

:40:58.:41:01.

He's called Godfrey Olson, he's standing down

:41:02.:41:05.

after 61 years of service on Eastleigh Borough Council,

:41:06.:41:08.

and he joins us now from our Southampton studio.

:41:09.:41:17.

Welcome to the programme. As we said, godly Olsen, you have sat on

:41:18.:41:25.

Eastleigh Borough Council since 1955. How much has local and changed

:41:26.:41:30.

since you were elected? Dramatically. When I first joined

:41:31.:41:34.

Eastleigh Borough Council it was a relatively small area just

:41:35.:41:37.

comprising of three towns, chance that, Eastleigh and Bishopstown in

:41:38.:41:46.

the 1974 reorganisation it expanded to more than double its size and now

:41:47.:41:51.

has a population of over 100,000. You are not standing for real action

:41:52.:41:57.

next week, why are you stepping down now? I decided that I had as to the

:41:58.:42:03.

electorate of the war but I represent -- I had asked the

:42:04.:42:07.

electorate of the water that I represented throughout that time

:42:08.:42:10.

enough to support me, now it was time for me to take a rest and give

:42:11.:42:15.

Cindy at the opportunity. You have clearly enjoyed it, otherwise you

:42:16.:42:18.

would not have done it for all this time. You have been a councillor,

:42:19.:42:23.

mayor three times, you also worked as an estate agent. How did you

:42:24.:42:28.

manage it all? With difficulty. I have always lived by a council

:42:29.:42:33.

diary. It was imported to me to always be at the council meetings,

:42:34.:42:39.

and I managed to fulfil that, fortunately, and I enjoyed

:42:40.:42:44.

representing the people that had the confidence to elect me. You were

:42:45.:42:50.

awarded an OBE in 1990 for your work within the community. What did you

:42:51.:42:54.

think has been your greatest achievement, all the thing you

:42:55.:42:59.

remember most? A number of things, but I suppose when taking my mayoral

:43:00.:43:06.

years, my second mayoral year, I decided I would try to raise money

:43:07.:43:13.

to help people with special needs. The next year was the Queen's Silver

:43:14.:43:21.

Jubilee. So we decided to set up a committee to raise money to build an

:43:22.:43:25.

activity centre for people with special needs. We managed to succeed

:43:26.:43:32.

and have it open, Princess Margaret came to open it just before the end

:43:33.:43:39.

of the Queen's Silver Jubilee year. That still exists and caters for

:43:40.:43:45.

many hundreds of people with special needs who can go and enjoy

:43:46.:43:49.

activities in the open air, sailing or canoeing, using the country park

:43:50.:44:00.

in which the centre is situated. Let me ask Alan Salmond, do you think

:44:01.:44:06.

you could serve the 61 years? -- Alex Hammond? It is 22 years since

:44:07.:44:13.

Godfrey was recognised for his work and he has done another couple of

:44:14.:44:20.

decades since. Whatever medals they have for local councillors, he

:44:21.:44:23.

should get a platinum medal. An amazing record, well done. Enjoy

:44:24.:44:28.

your retirement, you have owned it and deserved it. Did you want to say

:44:29.:44:34.

something, it sounded like he wanted to say something? I was just going

:44:35.:44:38.

to tell you about the restoration of an Eastleigh local building. We will

:44:39.:44:42.

have to say that for another day, but thank you.

:44:43.:44:43.

Now, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is backing a vote to stay

:44:44.:44:46.

in the EU at the referendum on the 23rd of June.

:44:47.:44:48.

But one of his MPs, the former Welfare Minister Frank Field,

:44:49.:44:51.

has used a speech this morning to accuse him of writing the second

:44:52.:44:54.

longest suicide note in Labour's history.

:44:55.:44:56.

He said traditional Labour voters

:44:57.:44:57.

had suffered most from Britain's EU membership:

:44:58.:45:04.

They have been on the receiving end of the numbers, 5.3 million people,

:45:05.:45:12.

newcomers to this country since Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

:45:13.:45:14.

They are the ones that have actually suffered with pressure on their

:45:15.:45:19.

wages declining, they have been the ones who find the queues

:45:20.:45:21.

for housing have become longer, and they are the ones

:45:22.:45:24.

who feel most acutely that they cannot choose schools

:45:25.:45:27.

And he's with us now to tell us more.

:45:28.:45:41.

Frank Field, since Jake Cole won the leadership, there has been a lot of

:45:42.:45:50.

disunity, or at least reported disunity in the Labour Party, but

:45:51.:45:53.

Europe is an issue where you could say there is unity, really, bar a

:45:54.:45:58.

few MPs. So why are you trying to create this unity when it is a

:45:59.:46:05.

necessary? I think his position is secure, I think this talk from some

:46:06.:46:09.

members of the Parliamentary Labour Party about overthrowing is absurd,

:46:10.:46:13.

and he will remain secure until those who wish to have him replaced

:46:14.:46:17.

find an alternative leader. The reason why I spoke today was that if

:46:18.:46:24.

you look at, leaving out what has happened to our vote in Scotland! In

:46:25.:46:29.

England, since the heyday of Tony Blair, we have lost well over four

:46:30.:46:35.

million votes, well over 3 million people have moved to a distension,

:46:36.:46:41.

and Ukip has had, equally, an increasing vote of 3 million. --

:46:42.:46:53.

moved to add -- abstention. They crossed over because they felt they

:46:54.:46:57.

had a Labour Party that did not represent in public debate their

:46:58.:47:02.

real interests. But the settled view in Labour that Remain is the one to

:47:03.:47:06.

back, and the Conservative Party is a classic example of a party that is

:47:07.:47:12.

split on this key issue, and voters do not like divided parties. So why

:47:13.:47:15.

highlight something that, in Parliamentary terms you do not

:47:16.:47:24.

represent any more? You can have unanimity in the graveyard. It is

:47:25.:47:27.

crucially important, if we are going to be successful in winning power

:47:28.:47:31.

next time, that we do not have another tranche of Labour voters

:47:32.:47:38.

feeling that they are so unrepresented by the Parliamentary

:47:39.:47:41.

leadership that they are voting to leave and voting for Ukip

:47:42.:47:44.

candidates. I want them to go into the polling booth to express that

:47:45.:47:53.

40% of our supporters support leaving, as proud Labour voters, not

:47:54.:47:57.

potential renegade Ukip voters. Why would leaving the EU be good for

:47:58.:48:04.

working people? We would be able to control our borders. I have heard

:48:05.:48:07.

people argue that we already do, David Miliband, but we have no

:48:08.:48:14.

control, since the accession countries joined, we have had 5.3

:48:15.:48:20.

million people coming into this country. That was Labour's fault.

:48:21.:48:25.

And you had me on this programme saying we should not do that,

:48:26.:48:29.

criticising the Labour government for doing so, and it was not then

:48:30.:48:33.

about the Labour Party being united on that issue. What do you say to

:48:34.:48:37.

that, in terms of working people being best represented by parties

:48:38.:48:43.

wanting to leave? Because their fortunes would improve. Well, I

:48:44.:48:48.

don't access that, and I rather like the tone, as it happens, and it is

:48:49.:48:53.

perhaps ridiculous for me to beat defending Jeremy Corbyn and Frank

:48:54.:48:56.

attacking him, but I think the tone that he said in his speech of not

:48:57.:49:03.

being uncritical towards Europe, but a balance there is a good track

:49:04.:49:15.

record in said in terms, but the SNP is a pro-European party, not

:49:16.:49:21.

uncritical but still pro-European, and we have been massively

:49:22.:49:25.

successful at the ballot box. The idea that being pro-European will

:49:26.:49:28.

damage electoral fortunes is not upheld by the evidence in Scotland.

:49:29.:49:32.

I know there are other factors, Frank, but nonetheless it is an

:49:33.:49:36.

accurate you have to answer. Indeed, I think Scotland is another country.

:49:37.:49:43.

I think you will move to a position of independence, and I hope we will

:49:44.:49:49.

push for parliaments of all the countries, with England having a

:49:50.:49:54.

parliament, like you have, Wales and Northern Ireland. People in Scotland

:49:55.:49:57.

are voting for bigger issues than what they have to face, which is key

:49:58.:50:05.

for our future, the referendum. You have rather disarmed me with that

:50:06.:50:09.

proposal! Just briefly, to go back to the workers and working people in

:50:10.:50:14.

terms of which way they might go in this election, Alan Johnson has said

:50:15.:50:19.

that the reason why politicians like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove want

:50:20.:50:22.

to leave the EU is because they want to get rid of workers' rights comedy

:50:23.:50:34.

and think that is their main motivation? If you put your sticky

:50:35.:50:39.

fingers into their souls, you should have them here to answer that. The

:50:40.:50:44.

fallacy of that argument is that many of the social rights ones which

:50:45.:50:49.

we actually took into Europe, not in fact that somehow workers in this

:50:50.:50:55.

country were bereft of until the European, until we joined the

:50:56.:50:59.

European Union. I'll so think Alan Johnson's other comments today,

:51:00.:51:03.

believing that membership of the EU is more important to the country and

:51:04.:51:10.

to Labour voters that the act of settlement in 1945, if he thinks

:51:11.:51:14.

that... What we need to do is get a really good representation of Labour

:51:15.:51:18.

votes who wish to leave, to do so with their heads high, and not

:51:19.:51:21.

feeling this is a pro-lead to them crossing over to Ukip, because they

:51:22.:51:26.

feel they are not represented by the Labour Party. -- a prelude. We have

:51:27.:51:34.

heard perhaps that the economics from the Leave side is not the

:51:35.:51:38.

overriding issue for people. They are making that I come and because

:51:39.:51:42.

they are getting soundly beaten on the economics. But Stuart Rose said

:51:43.:51:46.

the wages of low skilled workers would rise if we left the EU, and he

:51:47.:51:52.

is on the Remain side. He could not member the name of the campaign! He

:51:53.:51:58.

has been taken off the shelf of the supermarket. It is antennae be the

:51:59.:52:03.

case that one of the reasons the progressive side of politics, by and

:52:04.:52:07.

large, with the exception of Frank and a few others, moved in favour of

:52:08.:52:12.

Europe in the 1990s, was the realisation that Europe was

:52:13.:52:17.

protecting social rights and workers per' rights. That was one of the

:52:18.:52:21.

reasons for the shift on the progressive side of politics. I

:52:22.:52:25.

think most people in the Labour Party would reflect on that. The

:52:26.:52:28.

problem with the European referendum to date is that voice is like Frank,

:52:29.:52:34.

Jeremy Corbyn, myself and the SNP, for understandable reasons, because

:52:35.:52:37.

by and large we are focusing on the local elections, have not had a real

:52:38.:52:42.

luck in, and we have had this argument within a fractious

:52:43.:52:43.

Conservative Party. No, don't worry, it's not

:52:44.:52:46.

quite one o'clock yet. But that was, of course,

:52:47.:52:50.

the sound of the famous It sounds every hour,

:52:51.:52:53.

but for how much longer? The Commons authorities have

:52:54.:52:57.

announced this morning plans to carry out a ?30m restoration

:52:58.:52:59.

project on the clock tower, and it could involve the bells

:53:00.:53:01.

being silenced for months. Adam, who's earning his pay today,

:53:02.:53:04.

has been finding out more. This is behind one of

:53:05.:53:10.

the Palace of Westminster's you realise the Elizabeth

:53:11.:53:15.

Tower is falling apart. The big enemy is water

:53:16.:53:23.

and condensation, which gets in everywhere,

:53:24.:53:26.

making the ironwork rust. On the outside, every single bit

:53:27.:53:32.

of stonework will be examined, which means the Elizabeth

:53:33.:53:34.

Tower will be sheathed in scaffolding for up

:53:35.:53:37.

to three years. The experts say the mechanism

:53:38.:53:39.

on the inside is like a car that has run every day for more

:53:40.:53:42.

than a century without a service. are also getting a loo, a lift,

:53:43.:53:45.

and somewhere to make a cuppa. And as somebody

:53:46.:53:51.

who looks after this clock, Well, it's massive,

:53:52.:53:52.

the clock is 150 years old, It's an incredible privilege

:53:53.:53:57.

to be involved, it's the most iconic clock

:53:58.:54:02.

in the world, and I'm thrilled

:54:03.:54:04.

to be part of the team responsible for securing its future

:54:05.:54:06.

for others to enjoy. Do you think people

:54:07.:54:08.

will get confused, not having the bongs

:54:09.:54:10.

and not having the time? I think they'll be sympathetic,

:54:11.:54:14.

we're going to keep the impact to an absolute minimum,

:54:15.:54:17.

so at all times there will be at least one dial

:54:18.:54:20.

displaying the time, to keep it chiming and striking

:54:21.:54:22.

for as long as possible. And in case you've got a pub quiz

:54:23.:54:28.

coming up, remember - And to discuss the restoration

:54:29.:54:31.

of Big Ben, and in fact the whole

:54:32.:54:38.

of the Houses of Parliament, I'm joined by the historian

:54:39.:54:41.

Dan Cruickshank. Welcome to the show. Why start on

:54:42.:54:51.

Big Ben? The whole place is falling down. It is falling down a bit more!

:54:52.:54:56.

It is about nine inches out of plumb, but it always has been, of

:54:57.:55:00.

course. The fascinating thing about the Palace of Westminster is that it

:55:01.:55:04.

had troubles from the start. In 1849, the stone was falling off, so

:55:05.:55:09.

it is part of the history, making do and amending. But this is where it

:55:10.:55:14.

is more visible, so why not start there? So you think that is

:55:15.:55:19.

worthwhile, but silencing the bells, can we imagine it? It happened

:55:20.:55:24.

before, of course, they have stopped in the past, during the bombing of

:55:25.:55:30.

1941. But it is worded to keep the whole machine up and running for the

:55:31.:55:36.

future. -- worth it. How long were they have to be silenced for? I

:55:37.:55:40.

understand it will stop and start, they will not be silent all the

:55:41.:55:44.

time, maybe a month or so. Of course, it is a tremendous machine,

:55:45.:55:48.

many people have not been up. Give as the image of it. It is escaping

:55:49.:55:55.

into a vast and wonderful world, it is made of iron, cast-iron, the

:55:56.:56:02.

material of the age, and the mechanism is sensational, huge, made

:56:03.:56:06.

by a very strange character. He was an architectural fantasist, but the

:56:07.:56:16.

bell, Big Ben, made in Whitechapel, and there is this gigantic mechanism

:56:17.:56:20.

balanced, when I was there, by old penny coins. They moved them a

:56:21.:56:25.

little bit to make the pendulum swing. It is magical. In terms of

:56:26.:56:31.

the broader repair of the Houses of Parliament, should it be done at any

:56:32.:56:37.

cost? Of course, it is the mother of Parliaments, the symbol of

:56:38.:56:40.

democratic government and so on. But in the end, it is a listed building,

:56:41.:56:46.

a great heritage site, what a fantastically bad example it would

:56:47.:56:49.

be for the government to give up its own listed building. It was on the

:56:50.:56:54.

cards for a year or two. It is inescapable. So you would be Joe Ham

:56:55.:56:59.

in your pocket, metaphorically speaking. -- you would put your

:57:00.:57:05.

hand. It would be deeply humiliating of Big Ben were not functioning. The

:57:06.:57:09.

leaning tower of Pisa managed to survive leaning for a while, but I

:57:10.:57:14.

am in favour of Big Ben. But I am suspicious, they are announcing the

:57:15.:57:17.

restoration of Big Ben, the closing of the tower, and that is being

:57:18.:57:21.

taken away from the overall restoration budget of the

:57:22.:57:23.

parliament, to make it look less. You see, I think the best thing to

:57:24.:57:27.

do with the Palace of Westminster, which after all is a Victorian fake

:57:28.:57:34.

of a restoration Palace, that is what it is. Is trying to provoke our

:57:35.:57:39.

guest?! Turn it into a tourist attraction. It cannot be a

:57:40.:57:47.

functioning parliament. So the substantial, provoking the market

:57:48.:57:51.

question... It is not a fake anything, it is a Victorian

:57:52.:58:00.

evocation... Of the Restoration, it is Restoration artwork. The

:58:01.:58:06.

alternative would be to abandon this vast and wonderful parliament. It

:58:07.:58:09.

should be a tourist attraction, the last thing you want is a burgeoning

:58:10.:58:13.

parliament in a building which is clearly unsuited to the 21st

:58:14.:58:17.

century. -- a bunch and ink parliament. Last word! We have got

:58:18.:58:25.

enough museums in this country some wonderful museums, it does a vital

:58:26.:58:29.

job. We are going to do the quiz, do you remember the question? Where did

:58:30.:58:35.

you steal the slogan from? I am hoping that it is LBJ, but I am

:58:36.:58:40.

suspecting it is not. It is Margaret Thatcher. That is why I said LBJ! It

:58:41.:58:48.

is the wrong answer! Thank you very much, Dan Cruickshank, I am sorry

:58:49.:58:51.

for rushing into that, that is it for today, thank you to our guests.

:58:52.:58:56.

The one o'clock news is starting on BBC One. Bye-bye.

:58:57.:58:59.

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