28/04/2016 Daily Politics


28/04/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by former deputy prime minister and Sheffield MP Nick Clegg. Was it right to suspend South Yorkshire's police chief over Hillsborough?


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We now know that the 96 football fans who died at Hillsborough 27

:00:37.:00:47.

But should the current Chief Constable have

:00:48.:00:51.

Naz Shah has been suspended from the Labour Party over

:00:52.:00:56.

Has the Labour Leader been too slow to act over this and other

:00:57.:01:00.

We'll be speaking to Ken Livingstone.

:01:01.:01:04.

Leaving the European Union is a threat to jobs, wages

:01:05.:01:07.

and prices say the Prime Minister and a former union boss.

:01:08.:01:12.

But a group of economists claim quitting the single market

:01:13.:01:14.

would boost national income and raise living standards.

:01:15.:01:17.

# This is what it sounds like...#

:01:18.:01:28.

We put a Prince mega fan through his paces.

:01:29.:01:38.

I saw Prince live, you know. Did you? A great night, I think.

:01:39.:01:44.

From what I can remember, which isn't a lot.

:01:45.:01:46.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, former

:01:47.:01:49.

Liberal Democrat Leader, Deputy Prime Minister

:01:50.:01:50.

First this morning, the Chief Constable

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suspended following Tuesday's verdicts in the

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David Crompton is accused by campaigners of overseeing

:02:00.:02:04.

attempts to shift the blame on to Liverpool fans

:02:05.:02:06.

Police and Crime Commissioner, Doctor Alan Billings,

:02:07.:02:12.

who took the decision to remove David Crompton from his job,

:02:13.:02:15.

I've reached of this decision with a heavy heart,

:02:16.:02:25.

following discussions with David, both in the run-up to

:02:26.:02:27.

and following the delivery of the Hillsborough verdicts.

:02:28.:02:29.

My decision is based on the erosion of public trust and confidence,

:02:30.:02:34.

referenced in statements and comments in the House

:02:35.:02:36.

of Commons this lunch time, along with public calls

:02:37.:02:38.

for the Chief Constable's resignation from a number

:02:39.:02:40.

Nick Clegg, should David Crompton have been suspended? I think there

:02:41.:02:55.

should be no alternative. I spoke to AlanBillings about it, the day

:02:56.:02:57.

before the judgment came out. I think it was quite clear from that

:02:58.:03:01.

and other conversations that whilst of course David Crompton was not

:03:02.:03:06.

around 27 years ago, the decision by South Yorkshire Police to continue,

:03:07.:03:09.

after by the way having issued a fulsome apology to the families in

:03:10.:03:14.

Liverpool, to nonetheless, continue with a lot of the misinformation

:03:15.:03:18.

that had been perpet waited by South Yorkshire Police over so many years,

:03:19.:03:22.

was a huge error and quite, rightly, I think, he has taken responsibility

:03:23.:03:27.

for it. Is there a risk, that because of the failure to get to the

:03:28.:03:31.

truth for 27 years of what happened that day, at Hillsborough, that

:03:32.:03:36.

individual police officers today may be unfairly blamed for the actual

:03:37.:03:39.

deaths of the 96 fans, remember than, or just for the cover-up. Of

:03:40.:03:47.

course, there are lots of risks. I as a constituency MP in South

:03:48.:03:52.

Yorkshire, on behalf of of my constituents, I'm worried, for

:03:53.:03:55.

instance, that the good, dutiful professional dedicated police

:03:56.:03:58.

officers who work in the South Yorkshire force, who have nothing to

:03:59.:04:02.

do with the events, either what happened in Hillsborough or

:04:03.:04:04.

subsequent events, they are deeply demoralised now. Urgently, for the

:04:05.:04:09.

people of South Yorkshire we need to somehow try to restore a sense of

:04:10.:04:13.

morale and purpose to the force itself. Unfortunately for the force

:04:14.:04:16.

it goes wider than Hillsborough. If you look at the explanations of one

:04:17.:04:21.

of David Crompton's predecessors to the House of Commons about the

:04:22.:04:25.

horrific things that happened in Rotherham, the sexual exploitation,

:04:26.:04:29.

and some very vulnerable children there, claiming the force had no

:04:30.:04:32.

idea what was going on, I'm afraid this is another hammer blow against

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a force whose credibility has been damaged in so many respects over a

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long period of time. Should David Crompton resign, go permanently, do

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you think? To be honested. He is suspended now. This is not going to

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be fixed by whether or not he is suspended. We have a were found

:04:51.:04:55.

problem in a police force who for various, complex reasons, have

:04:56.:04:58.

simply not met the most basic standards not only of integrity but

:04:59.:05:01.

professionalism on a number of fronts over very many years.

:05:02.:05:05.

Something radical needs to be done. Whoever is elected as the Police and

:05:06.:05:08.

Crime Commissioner in South Yorkshire next week, this is their

:05:09.:05:12.

absolute number one priority. Now some people have said about

:05:13.:05:14.

disbanding the force, folding it into another one. I'm in the if that

:05:15.:05:18.

necessarily will produce better policing in the local area but

:05:19.:05:21.

clearly every option needs to be considered. A message on a website

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for the forces' retired officers said they had dedicated and

:05:27.:05:28.

courageous careers and they should be proud of their work, deit spite

:05:29.:05:32.

the inquests' conclusions. What is your response to that? It is a very

:05:33.:05:38.

insensitive thing to say, right now. In the very strict limits of how it

:05:39.:05:42.

might have been intended, of course it is right to say there are plenty

:05:43.:05:45.

of individual police officers, I know many of them, who are as good

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as police officers, any other around the country, and their integrity

:05:50.:05:54.

should not be willfully be besmirched because of what happened

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27 years ago or recently in the inquests but to say that now. It

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wasn't meant for public consumption But to say that - I can understand

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why the families of the 96 feel it was an incredibly crass and incense

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think of thing to say but look, I'm also a South Yorkshire MP. I want a

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good police force to do good work for my constituents and the problem

:06:16.:06:18.

at the moment you have a force in complete disarray. So after the PCC,

:06:19.:06:23.

the Police and Crime Commissioner elections next week, we finally have

:06:24.:06:27.

to turn a page on this very, very sorry history of the force over many

:06:28.:06:29.

years. Thank you. Our Guest of the Day,

:06:30.:06:31.

Nick Clegg, is a big music fan. But which '80s' popstar did

:06:32.:06:38.

he dress up as when he was Was it a) Mick Jagger, b) David

:06:39.:06:41.

Bowie, c) Freddie Mercury I know which one I'm ghg for. -- I'm

:06:42.:06:46.

going for. So the Bradford West MP

:06:47.:06:58.

Naz Shah was suspended from the Labour party yesterday,

:06:59.:07:05.

pending an investigation into whether tweets she sent before

:07:06.:07:07.

she was an MP were anti-Semitic. She had already resigned her

:07:08.:07:09.

minor and unpaid post as Parliamentary Private Secretary

:07:10.:07:12.

to the Shadow Chancellor, The party will hope to draw

:07:13.:07:14.

a line under the matter but today more questions

:07:15.:07:17.

are being asked about its handling of this and other

:07:18.:07:20.

allegations of anti-Semitism. Yesterday, MP Naz Shah

:07:21.:07:22.

was suspended by the Labour Party following the discovery of social

:07:23.:07:29.

media posts she made One post suggested the country

:07:30.:07:31.

should be moved to the United while another showed

:07:32.:07:38.

Martin Luther-King with the caption "never forget that everything Hitler

:07:39.:07:46.

did in Germany was legal", This is not the first time the

:07:47.:07:49.

Labour Party has been accused of Last month activists

:07:50.:07:55.

Gerry Downing and Vicki Kirby And yesterday, Bradford councillor,

:07:56.:08:06.

Mohammad Shabbir, was also excluded Several senior Labour politicians,

:08:07.:08:15.

including Lord Levy, say the party has a "serious

:08:16.:08:18.

issue" with anti-Semitism. Labour MPs John Mann

:08:19.:08:23.

and Wes Streeting have criticised leader Jeremy Corbyn

:08:24.:08:25.

for being "flat-footed" on the issue, and said

:08:26.:08:26.

they want to see the Labour The Board of Deputies a body that

:08:27.:08:41.

represents British Jews have called on them to implement a strategy on

:08:42.:08:43.

this issue. And we're joined now by the former

:08:44.:08:44.

Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, Who is facing calls to be suspended.

:08:45.:09:09.

I have heard a lot of criticism of Israel, I have never heard anything

:09:10.:09:15.

anti-Semitic. I think blurring the things undermines the real

:09:16.:09:18.

importance of anti-Semitism. A real anti-Semite doesn't hate the Jews in

:09:19.:09:23.

Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or Stoke

:09:24.:09:26.

Newington, it is a physical loathing. When Naz Shah MPed a very

:09:27.:09:32.

Kates the forceable removal of Israeli Jews to the United States,

:09:33.:09:37.

it is not anti-Semitism? No, it is over the top and rude. I supported

:09:38.:09:40.

Naz in her campaign to... Is that not anti-Semitism? No, she was rude,

:09:41.:09:46.

over the top, who am I to denounce anyone for doing that The forceable

:09:47.:09:56.

deportation of Jews? Wrong. Not anti-Semitic I don't think she S it

:09:57.:10:01.

was incredibly rude. I don't think she was an anti-Semite. When the

:10:02.:10:04.

investigation is finished they will say she was rude and over the top

:10:05.:10:09.

but they won't find evidence that she hates Jews. When she urges in an

:10:10.:10:14.

online poll that show wants people to vote her way because "The Jews

:10:15.:10:21.

are rowing", that's not anti-Semitic? We have to investigate

:10:22.:10:23.

the charges and contexts in which they are made. If she is

:10:24.:10:27.

anti-Semitic, like the other three or four members we have found to be

:10:28.:10:32.

anti-Semitic, she will be expelled. When she posted a tweet, linking to

:10:33.:10:37.

a blog which claimed that Zionism was grooming Jews to exert influence

:10:38.:10:43.

at the highest levels of public life s that not anti-Semitism? That's

:10:44.:10:48.

part of the classic anti-Semitic thing that there is an international

:10:49.:10:52.

Jewish conspiracy. She link to the blog. You have said there isn't a

:10:53.:10:56.

provenlt I suggest to you that the evidence I'm giving to you suggests

:10:57.:10:59.

that at the very least one should have an open mind? I have an open

:11:00.:11:03.

mind. No, you have said she is not anti-Semitic I see nothing to

:11:04.:11:09.

suggest to me that she is anti-Semitic, I wouldn't have

:11:10.:11:11.

supported here, if I thought she was. When she the puts on social

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immediate and disaccept nights a slogan "Never forget anything that

:11:20.:11:24.

Hitler did in Germany was legal." Is that not anti-Semitic? It is a

:11:25.:11:27.

statement of fact. Hitler passed the laws to allow him to do it. What is

:11:28.:11:32.

the point of the fact? It is history. But Hitler was mad, he

:11:33.:11:36.

killed six million Jews. Why would you undermine it was legal to kill

:11:37.:11:41.

six million Jews? She is not saying it is legal, but what they did in

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the way they ran that country allowed them not to kill only 6

:11:46.:11:50.

million Jews but kill the Communists and lefties like me. My father

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almost died when a Nazi sub, sinked his boat. We all have fares fathers

:12:00.:12:07.

like that, not all. So when the Luton Labour councillor was

:12:08.:12:12.

suspended after describing Hitler as "the greatest man in history" and

:12:13.:12:18.

saying she wanted Iran to wipe out Israel in a nuclear attack, that is

:12:19.:12:21.

not anti-Semitism? That is and that's why she has been suspended or

:12:22.:12:25.

expelled. You said there sent anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?

:12:26.:12:29.

No, what I have said is that in 47 years in the party, in all the

:12:30.:12:33.

meetings I have been n I have never heard anyone say anything

:12:34.:12:36.

anti-Semitic. There is bowed to be in a party of 500,000 people. You

:12:37.:12:41.

will have a handful of anti-Semites and a handful of racists. You don't

:12:42.:12:46.

seem to know what is going on, within your own party, and you have

:12:47.:12:52.

been a life-long member. When Vicky Kishy, when she says Jews have big

:12:53.:12:58.

noses and slaughter the oppresside that semitism? -- Vicky Kirby?

:12:59.:13:05.

That's anti-Semitic. You have dug out virtually every comment. All

:13:06.:13:09.

from recent years. You have said you never heard anything I never H You

:13:10.:13:13.

didn't know about these? When they erupted in the news, yes. I have

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never met any of these people. Meeting them is not the issue. It is

:13:17.:13:23.

what they said. When Kadim Hussein, former Labour Mayor of Bradford

:13:24.:13:27.

shared a post complaining that the schools in the area only taught, Ann

:13:28.:13:34.

Frank and six million zionists killed by Hitler that's not

:13:35.:13:37.

anti-Semitism? That's why he has been suspended. So there is a

:13:38.:13:40.

problem There is not a problem. You are talking about be a handful of

:13:41.:13:45.

people in a party of 500,000. Jeremy Corbyn has moved rapidly to deal

:13:46.:13:49.

with all of them. No he hasn't. He didn't want Naz Shah to be suspended

:13:50.:13:53.

order Vicky Kirby. She is the one by the way who says Jews have long

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noses and slaughter the oppressed. He met with Naz and they agreed she

:13:59.:14:01.

would stand down while the investigation goes on. He called her

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in to see him. We have hand #ye8d these things very rapidly. --

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handled these things. Miss Shah is a colleague and friend, also a member

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of the Labour Party, a Bradford councillor, who has not been

:14:16.:14:21.

suspended who refers to the Jewish people as zial, which you will know

:14:22.:14:28.

is a racial epitit. If it is, he will be expelled. You are talking

:14:29.:14:34.

about a huge investigation, virtually anything everyone has put

:14:35.:14:37.

on the internet and it has been found. You have said in 47 years it

:14:38.:14:42.

hasn't been a problem In 47 years I have not heard anyone say. You have

:14:43.:14:46.

missed this? No, many people are new and recent members of the party who

:14:47.:14:50.

joined in the big influx. 300,000 new people came N some of them are

:14:51.:14:54.

bound to be... Some of these are not part of the 300. Maybe you don't see

:14:55.:14:59.

anti-Semitism because you set a very high par bar for it. Afterall you

:15:00.:15:09.

are the man who welcomed Yuset Al-Kari to London in 2005. Called

:15:10.:15:14.

him a grossive voice. This is man who called for Jews and homosexuals

:15:15.:15:17.

to be killed. Is that not anti-Semitic? No this is the man who

:15:18.:15:21.

called on Muslims around the world to donate blood after the attacks of

:15:22.:15:27.

9/11. When he came to London I went to him with the mosque where I heard

:15:28.:15:32.

him say - no man should hit a woman and you should not discriminate

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against homosexuals. I cannot equate whey heard him say to... He has

:15:36.:15:40.

heard for Jews to be killed. You embraced him. A man who made a clear

:15:41.:15:48.

aented accept itedic statement? -- anti-Semitic He made no anti-Semitic

:15:49.:15:52.

statement here in London, this stuff has come out more recently.You

:15:53.:15:56.

didn't know this. No, all I knew was... You didn't do due diligence

:15:57.:16:00.

on him I don't investigate people.You don't worry about the

:16:01.:16:03.

people you may be sharing platforms. You talk about women, he also said

:16:04.:16:10.

"To be be a solved from guilt a rained woman must have shown good

:16:11.:16:16.

conduct." None of with that was what he said in my presence. Hitler was

:16:17.:16:24.

kind to dogs He advocated at the mosque no Muslim should hit his

:16:25.:16:28.

wife. You didn't know that he said Jews should be killed. He didn't say

:16:29.:16:33.

anything like that at City Hall or the renalpents park mosque. There

:16:34.:16:38.

are now 11 MPs calling for you to be suspended from the Labour Party.

:16:39.:16:43.

-- from the You are under some pressure

:16:44.:16:47.

this mornings aren't you? I have said what I believe to be

:16:48.:16:58.

true, that Naz Shah is not anti-Semitic. She made remarks, but

:16:59.:17:05.

that does not make her an anti-Semite. There was a

:17:06.:17:09.

confrontation between you and John Mann. We can show you a bit of that.

:17:10.:17:18.

You are a Nazi apologist! You are rewriting history! Go back and check

:17:19.:17:28.

what Hitler did! You have obviously never heard of Mein Kampf! Have you

:17:29.:17:40.

never read it? From 1932. I had been a journalist since 1973 and I have

:17:41.:17:46.

never heard an MP calling a fellow MP a Nazi. A Nazi apologist. A

:17:47.:17:54.

Labour MP to pay former mayor of London and former Labour MP and

:17:55.:17:59.

Labour activist, chair of a Commission, Nazi apologist. He went

:18:00.:18:03.

completely over the top. I was doing a radio interview at the time and he

:18:04.:18:08.

was shouting, I am a racist, anti-Semitic. I have had that with

:18:09.:18:13.

John Mann before. Screening a couple of weeks ago I was a bigot down the

:18:14.:18:18.

phone. It does not worry you these Labour members, many of them in the

:18:19.:18:23.

mainstream, not Jo hold Blairite enemies, that they see an apologist

:18:24.:18:30.

for people making anti-Semitic statements in your party. I am not

:18:31.:18:35.

an apologist for anybody making anti-Semitic statements and they

:18:36.:18:39.

will be expelled from the party if they are doing but do not confuse

:18:40.:18:43.

that with criticising the Israeli government. It is not criticism of

:18:44.:18:49.

the Israeli government policies for a member to say Hitler was one of

:18:50.:18:56.

the greatest people in history and juice... They will be expelled from

:18:57.:19:01.

the party and that process has started. Can you continue as head of

:19:02.:19:08.

the foreign policy Commission, at given everything that has been said?

:19:09.:19:15.

These things -- these things dominate the news and people, down

:19:16.:19:19.

when they check what you have said. I am sure a lot of people have had

:19:20.:19:24.

phone calls from the Daily Mail, and when they talk to me, that is not

:19:25.:19:31.

what I am saying. We will leave Nazi -- we will leave Naz Shah to be

:19:32.:19:37.

investigated and if she is not found to be innocent, she will be

:19:38.:19:43.

expelled. Chris Ryan, the Labour shadow Leader of the House has said

:19:44.:19:49.

this. In Parliament today, he said anti-Semitism is wrong, and of

:19:50.:19:52.

story, I am tired of people trying to expel it away and, yes, I am

:19:53.:20:01.

talking to you, Ken Livingstone. He should check my record. We worked

:20:02.:20:06.

with Jewish groups to get across to our children the scandal of the

:20:07.:20:10.

Holocaust and the groups challenging anti-Semitism and I had a very good

:20:11.:20:14.

working relationship with the Jewish community. You are found to have

:20:15.:20:17.

brought disrespect to your office when you like and a Jewish

:20:18.:20:21.

journalist to a concentration camp guard. I cannot tell a journalist,

:20:22.:20:28.

whether they Jewish or, whatever, but if he is chasing me at night and

:20:29.:20:32.

barking questions at me, you might be rude to them and some people

:20:33.:20:37.

might hit them. He said he was just doing his job. You were found to not

:20:38.:20:42.

be doing your job, the enquiry found you had brought disrespect to your

:20:43.:20:46.

office. We went to the High Court and the judge opened his judgment by

:20:47.:20:50.

saying, I hope nobody here will suggest Mr Livingstone is

:20:51.:20:55.

anti-Semitic and we won the case. What you make of this? I understood

:20:56.:21:01.

the reason why it Labour MPs were calling for you to resign was not

:21:02.:21:06.

because she defended Naz Shah but it because you reportedly said

:21:07.:21:11.

something about Hitler's approach to Zionism in the 1930s, is that right?

:21:12.:21:16.

He did not speak does she did not win the election but became the

:21:17.:21:20.

largest party in 1932, his policy was not to kill Jews to deport them

:21:21.:21:27.

to Israel. I am shocked, in all my years of politics, I have never seen

:21:28.:21:31.

this perverse logic which throws Hitler and rewriting Hitler --

:21:32.:21:36.

history into a sensitive debate. What is this is to talk about Hitler

:21:37.:21:40.

and your views of his approach designers given what happened and

:21:41.:21:47.

given the sensitivities around the Jewish community here and around the

:21:48.:21:53.

world. Of course everybody defends a person's right to be critical of the

:21:54.:21:56.

Israeli government and my party, we have had issues. I have had to

:21:57.:22:02.

suspend people. You suspended one for three months. He said many awful

:22:03.:22:09.

things. The point is there is something, this was said last night,

:22:10.:22:13.

there is something on parts of the left in British politics that enters

:22:14.:22:18.

into an incredibly intellectual retorted justification to link

:22:19.:22:23.

Hitler and modern politics. Your colleagues think you are part of

:22:24.:22:28.

that. The simple truth, that was Hitler -- that was Hitler's policy

:22:29.:22:31.

when he first came to power, the move Germany's Jews to Israel. So

:22:32.:22:38.

that is all right? No, I denounced that. Why raise the point? I was

:22:39.:22:43.

interviewed and you have known me not to answer a question. I do not

:22:44.:22:53.

understand. I1940, Adolf Eichmann wanted to forcibly remove him to

:22:54.:22:57.

Madagascar and now we have a Labour MPs saying he should be forcibly

:22:58.:23:01.

removed to America, I do not understand the point. I was asked a

:23:02.:23:05.

question and I answered it, you have never known me not to. That was

:23:06.:23:10.

Hitler's bowl -- policy in 1932 when he came to power. You are a

:23:11.:23:13.

household name and people know you in the country and you are part of

:23:14.:23:16.

mainstream politics. I never thought I would see the day well-known

:23:17.:23:22.

politicians would rake over Hitler's views in a way that people would

:23:23.:23:27.

simply not understand. Things, they are either historically true or not.

:23:28.:23:31.

That is one reason I pursued my policies because I do study history

:23:32.:23:35.

because if you do, you can avoid making the same mistakes again.

:23:36.:23:39.

You're also a politician responsible for choosing your words carefully

:23:40.:23:43.

and not entering this weird and contorted view that allows you to

:23:44.:23:47.

talk about Hitler in the same breath as the Jewish community in Britain.

:23:48.:23:56.

It is extraordinary. What about political comparisons, is that not

:23:57.:23:59.

the problem? Why do you use the Holocaust is a political comparison

:24:00.:24:04.

to highlight your objects and to be Israeli government? That is what

:24:05.:24:10.

offends people. My objection to the Israeli government, for nearly 70

:24:11.:24:15.

years, Palestinians stock, why use the Holocaust and hip to underline

:24:16.:24:21.

that point? -- Palestinians. I make no point between the current Israeli

:24:22.:24:24.

policy and the Holocaust and Hitler, was asked the question in an

:24:25.:24:29.

interview. If you say, was it true we were invaded by the Normans in

:24:30.:24:34.

1066, I would say, yes, that is true. I will not avoid the truth.

:24:35.:24:37.

We're joined now by the Labour MP John Mann.

:24:38.:24:41.

You have seen them having a confrontation earlier. We have been

:24:42.:24:47.

speaking to Ken Livingstone and we showed your remarks, he says you are

:24:48.:24:50.

over the top calling him a Nazi apologist. He is a Nazi apologist

:24:51.:24:57.

and he is a worse historian than he is a politician. Factually

:24:58.:25:00.

inaccurate. He should read Mein Kampf, by Hitler. He should study

:25:01.:25:05.

what the Nazi state including what Hitler did when he came to power in

:25:06.:25:10.

1993 and the events of that year and he should see what the first and

:25:11.:25:14.

second and third thing that Nazi regime did and who it targeted and

:25:15.:25:20.

why. He should look at what he and his leaders said about Zionism. And

:25:21.:25:26.

he should reconsider why he has said these hugely offensive and grotesque

:25:27.:25:33.

remarks. The timing is calculated. And offensive as well. He should not

:25:34.:25:38.

be sat on Labour's National Executive Committee, he should be

:25:39.:25:42.

suspended today. What do you say to that? I simply say, go back and

:25:43.:25:48.

check, is what I said true or not? The BBC have a huge team of

:25:49.:25:51.

researchers and it would take a couple of hours to go back. What is

:25:52.:25:56.

the point? I was asked a question and I answered it. In 41 years since

:25:57.:26:02.

winning my first election, 45 years, I have never lied. I do not think it

:26:03.:26:08.

is entirely historically accurate because they had already started

:26:09.:26:11.

attacking the Jews when he came to power. It was not an attack to say

:26:12.:26:18.

he would deport all the Jews. You seem to be implying he was not such

:26:19.:26:22.

a bad guy because he just wanted to deport them and he just went wrong

:26:23.:26:27.

later on. People will think this is unbelievable. He was a monster from

:26:28.:26:32.

start to finish, it is simply the historical fact that his policy

:26:33.:26:35.

initially was to send Germany's Jews to Israel and there were private

:26:36.:26:41.

meetings between Zionism and Hitler's government that were kept

:26:42.:26:46.

confidential when they had a dialogue about whether to do that.

:26:47.:26:51.

Do you think Ken Livingstone is anti-Semitic? Yes, he is and his

:26:52.:26:55.

rewriting of history. He is factually wrong. Hitler was not a

:26:56.:27:01.

Zionist. He blocked any attempt to get Jews into what was then

:27:02.:27:06.

Palestine. And the reason he did so and he said so and it was expressed,

:27:07.:27:12.

was because a Zionist state would be an international Jewish conspiracy

:27:13.:27:17.

and a base for it. He said it in Mein Kampf and it was said by his

:27:18.:27:23.

foreign Minister who specified that in great detail in 1937, outlining

:27:24.:27:28.

why they were not prepared to allow Jews they wanted to get rid of the

:27:29.:27:33.

leave to go to what was then Palestine because it would have

:27:34.:27:38.

created a power base for an international Jewish conspiracy.

:27:39.:27:42.

Hitler was not a Zionist. And to suggest so is so grotesque. It is

:27:43.:27:48.

calculatedly offensive. I think you have lost it, Mr Livingstone, I

:27:49.:27:52.

think you need help. It is a deliberate calculated attempt to

:27:53.:27:55.

cause problems and to stir up hatred. What you on at the moment?

:27:56.:28:01.

You should certainly not be on Labour's National Executive! Do you

:28:02.:28:05.

understand why those remarks, you say you are telling the truth, but

:28:06.:28:10.

how they would it -- would set a community and people who lived and

:28:11.:28:14.

survived or died during the Holocaust? -- upset. That is not

:28:15.:28:20.

true, I have not said it was a Zionist, I said his policy in 1932

:28:21.:28:25.

was to deport Jews to Israel, that does not mean I agree. You said it

:28:26.:28:31.

today, do you withdraw that? I said that was his policy and it was

:28:32.:28:35.

followed by private conversations between the Zionist leadership and

:28:36.:28:38.

Hitler's government about whether to carry out that policy, he did not.

:28:39.:28:47.

You are raising these points about the early 1930s at a time when the

:28:48.:28:54.

party faces a crisis of anti-Semitism in its own ranks.

:28:55.:28:58.

People will be baffled this is what you are doing. I am not raising

:28:59.:29:01.

these points, and was planning a nice quiet morning in the garden

:29:02.:29:06.

until I am descended upon by these journalists saying, is this true? I

:29:07.:29:10.

would be happier to do the garden, it is a nice day out. You have been

:29:11.:29:17.

here and you have answered the question is, that cannot be said of

:29:18.:29:21.

all politicians. We are grateful for that. People will make up their own

:29:22.:29:26.

minds about what you're saying and we will let you go back your garden.

:29:27.:29:29.

John Mann, thank you. Now, what's the best way of dealing

:29:30.:29:32.

with Britain's drug problem? Stricter laws, better enforcement

:29:33.:29:34.

or harsher sentences perhaps? Well, our guest of the day,

:29:35.:29:36.

Nick Clegg, thinks not. In government, he was

:29:37.:29:40.

a big proponent of but failed to persuade his

:29:41.:29:42.

Conservative cabinet colleagues that Giles has been looking

:29:43.:29:45.

at the arguments. In British politics,

:29:46.:30:00.

it seemed we'd all agreed that cannabis and other drugs

:30:01.:30:02.

would and should be illegal. No politician who wanted office

:30:03.:30:05.

was going to seriously Whenever they have, they've lost

:30:06.:30:13.

and they've been told For a variety of reasons,

:30:14.:30:17.

countries like Uruguay, Portugal and nearly half the States

:30:18.:30:21.

of America have relaxed their laws on cannabis at least because,

:30:22.:30:24.

they say, total The intense attack on prohibition

:30:25.:30:26.

of cannabis over the last 30 years has led to a shift

:30:27.:30:31.

in the nature of cannabis. We no longer import balanced

:30:32.:30:34.

cannabis, which has a mixture of THC and cannabidiol,

:30:35.:30:40.

from Morocco or Lebanon, we have tended to result

:30:41.:30:50.

in home-grown cannabis, to get the maximum

:30:51.:30:52.

bang for their bucks. It's a chicken and egg

:30:53.:30:55.

argument about a plant. Does prohibition make

:30:56.:30:57.

underground drugs far stronger, open a gateway to experimentation

:30:58.:30:59.

with harder drugs? And even if that's the case,

:31:00.:31:01.

now it's out there, would decriminalisation

:31:02.:31:03.

or legalisation - they're means skunk, spice and other

:31:04.:31:05.

synthetic replacements would simply It's rather like suggesting that

:31:06.:31:11.

if we took a drug that was freely available, alcohol,

:31:12.:31:20.

that people wouldn't want to drink vodka or whisky,

:31:21.:31:22.

they would prefer just So the drugs genie

:31:23.:31:24.

is out of the bottle. But do people who are

:31:25.:31:31.

criminalised want to seek help? Does somebody with a criminal record

:31:32.:31:34.

for smoking something arguably less dangerous in moderation than alcohol

:31:35.:31:37.

find themselves marginalised? These are some of the arguments

:31:38.:31:41.

Nick Clegg has explored in other parts of the world,

:31:42.:31:44.

and others agree. Free markets in all drugs

:31:45.:31:47.

would be a disaster. But where countries have

:31:48.:31:50.

decriminalised the possession of drugs, we have seen often very

:31:51.:31:54.

good health gains. And the classic example of course

:31:55.:31:57.

is Portugal, where it realised it was economically unfeasible

:31:58.:32:00.

to continue the traditional way Let's look at Colorado,

:32:01.:32:02.

for instance, where they have decriminalised and

:32:03.:32:10.

legalised cannabis use. Amongst 12-18 year olds being

:32:11.:32:12.

randomly tested in high schools, we used to see about 5.6% of those

:32:13.:32:16.

young people testing So the drugs genie

:32:17.:32:20.

is out of the bottle. Now it's up to 57%

:32:21.:32:34.

since legalisation. But trading drugs initiatives aside,

:32:35.:32:36.

there is one problem that has always pushed drugs use,

:32:37.:32:38.

especially cannabis, You have a lot more people

:32:39.:32:40.

who wouldn't have developed psychosis, schizophrenia-like

:32:41.:32:43.

condition, if they hadn't And the trouble is that a good

:32:44.:32:45.

proportion of them are so dependent I rang a drug addict

:32:46.:32:49.

friend of mine who's in recovery and I said,

:32:50.:32:53.

Jamie, what do you think He said, well, if you legalise

:32:54.:32:55.

drugs, send the police round, put me in handcuffs,

:32:56.:33:02.

because in six months, I'd be dead. They've failed to understand

:33:03.:33:04.

what addiction means to people. If you're an addict,

:33:05.:33:07.

you can never get enough. For all the arguments for changing

:33:08.:33:09.

things, it seems the obstacles, if you'll forgive me,

:33:10.:33:11.

are as high as ever. We're joined now by the Mail

:33:12.:33:15.

on Sunday Columnist Peter Hitchens. Welcome to the Daily Politics but

:33:16.:33:25.

Nick Clegg you have returned from atending a UN summit in New York on

:33:26.:33:30.

drug reform, it was widely panned of being something of a damp squib.

:33:31.:33:36.

Disappointed? I wasn't surprised. You have such diverse opinions

:33:37.:33:39.

across the world so you have nations like Asia and China, Asian countries

:33:40.:33:44.

that want to chop people's hands off if you touch drugs and you have the

:33:45.:33:49.

huge experiment in Latin America towards decriminalisation and or

:33:50.:33:52.

legalisation, the film conflicted the two, so the world is quite

:33:53.:33:56.

polarised in its debate. So no wonder if you bring those countries

:33:57.:34:01.

together they can't agree. So nothing substantial was achieved?

:34:02.:34:04.

Not much was achieved there. What is happening is the interesting thing,

:34:05.:34:08.

what is happening in countries across the world who are

:34:09.:34:11.

experimenting, innovating, trying to do something different to reduce the

:34:12.:34:14.

harm of drugs, that's where the debate is now. Not in the UN it is

:34:15.:34:19.

more at national or even local level. Do you accept that because

:34:20.:34:22.

there are polarised positions, as Nick Clegg has outlined, it is very

:34:23.:34:25.

difficult, then, to look at what some people would argue is the

:34:26.:34:29.

sensible view of decriminalising some drugs, in ordered to reduce the

:34:30.:34:33.

number of people who are actually becoming addicted to harder drugs?

:34:34.:34:38.

Almost everything you have said was factually wrong there. The problem

:34:39.:34:41.

with this debate is it is conducted a the a level of ignorance which is

:34:42.:34:46.

positively astonishing. The biggest decriminalisation experiment

:34:47.:34:48.

probably in the Western world has been conducted in this country since

:34:49.:34:54.

1917 under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Cannabis has been effectively a

:34:55.:34:57.

decriminalised drugs for many years. The head of Flying Squad said so in

:34:58.:35:04.

1994. Lord hail school that well-known hippie instructed

:35:05.:35:07.

magistrates to stop sending people to to prison for cannabis possession

:35:08.:35:10.

in 1937. The number of people arrested and prosecuted has been

:35:11.:35:13.

dropping like a stone in the past few years. Before then the police

:35:14.:35:18.

invented something without asking Parliament, the cannabis warning, to

:35:19.:35:22.

let people off. Canning business possession has been decriminalised

:35:23.:35:27.

in this country. What is going on now is a well-fund the campaign, I

:35:28.:35:32.

call it billionaire dope, to achieve the next stage, the marketing,

:35:33.:35:36.

selling on internet, advertising and selling in shops and huge profits to

:35:37.:35:39.

be made, while at the same time - this is vital, the mental health

:35:40.:35:44.

risks, are enormous and Nick Clegg's party has been very rightly

:35:45.:35:46.

concerned about mental health, and the way it is neglected, a huge

:35:47.:35:49.

contribution to mentedal ill innocence this country is made by

:35:50.:35:53.

the very drugs which he seeks to legalise. Taking the point that in

:35:54.:35:58.

your view Peter hitch yins there has been a de facto... It is not my view

:35:59.:36:03.

the fact are available. I can present a book to Mr Clegg, if you

:36:04.:36:07.

read it, you will have to stop saying everything you say. Don't say

:36:08.:36:11.

you don't get any gift on this programme. In terms of mental

:36:12.:36:16.

illness, that's the big worry for people, that actually you can argue

:36:17.:36:20.

for decriminalisation and we will cite statistics from countries like

:36:21.:36:24.

Portugal that have shown you can then remove the barriers to help

:36:25.:36:28.

addict. But a because of the nature of the skunk or the cannabis which

:36:29.:36:33.

is now being dealt, you are getting increasing inspects of young people

:36:34.:36:36.

suffering from schizophrenia, why is your party still pushing that? I

:36:37.:36:42.

think Peter, bless him, just is on the wrong footing. Don't bless me.

:36:43.:36:46.

Drugs are bad for you. Right. They cause harm. I'm a dad, I don't want

:36:47.:36:52.

my kids hooked on drugs. You have to reduce the harm of drugs. What you

:36:53.:36:56.

can't doe, which is Peter and other - is shou wish it away and somehow

:36:57.:37:00.

think you can prohibit drugs out of existence. They have been in

:37:01.:37:02.

existence for thousands of years, they will always be with us. So as a

:37:03.:37:06.

society, if you want a grown-up debate you have to ask yourself why

:37:07.:37:10.

the war on drugs, and the prohibitionist approach has not

:37:11.:37:12.

worked and ask yourself, for instance, if you want to look at the

:37:13.:37:15.

evidence, and the data, why is it that we have just had the highest

:37:16.:37:21.

rate of drug-related fatalities in this country, 3,500 people,

:37:22.:37:25.

drug-related deaths in 2014. Portugal, after decriminalisation,

:37:26.:37:28.

and by the way, they didn't do it for some hippie instipt, they did it

:37:29.:37:31.

because originally they were worried about the link between drug

:37:32.:37:36.

addiction and hth HIV contamination, a spread of HIV. They have had 22

:37:37.:37:41.

drug-related fatalities. At some point people like Peter have to

:37:42.:37:44.

accept that the war on drugs is not working. If something is not

:37:45.:37:48.

working, I generally think you try something else. If you look at the

:37:49.:37:52.

cover of the book you will find to says - the war we nevering fought.

:37:53.:37:56.

Peter, can I just put to you... No, Nick Clegg is aski for an adult

:37:57.:38:03.

argument. Hang on, let me put the figures to you. In Portugal -

:38:04.:38:08.

because people are interested in evidence-based n Portugal the number

:38:09.:38:13.

of street deaths from drug overdozes, fell, the number of new

:38:14.:38:17.

HIV infections from dirty needles fell from 2,000 to 400. In

:38:18.:38:22.

Washington state, the first year of legalisation, raised a lot of money,

:38:23.:38:27.

too, that went into helping drug addict, but marijuana-related

:38:28.:38:30.

convictions fell by 81% after the first year of decriminalisation.

:38:31.:38:34.

There is a mix of figures. But everything comes down to

:38:35.:38:36.

decriminalisation and legalisation. Let us concentrate on something I

:38:37.:38:39.

know about and we can influence, what is going on in this country,

:38:40.:38:45.

the covert, de facto, decriminalisation of cannabis in

:38:46.:38:49.

this country. You need to look at the figures on the past five years

:38:50.:38:53.

alone the number of arrests for cannabis possession has halved. The

:38:54.:38:56.

head of Bristol police said earlier on this week they weren't bother to

:38:57.:39:00.

arrest people for cannabis propossess. If you stop pretend

:39:01.:39:06.

there is a savage prohibitionry war. This country isinvolved in a huge

:39:07.:39:09.

decriminalisation experiment. All the things you blame on prohibition

:39:10.:39:13.

are the result of this experiment about which you appear not to know,

:39:14.:39:17.

all the figures are available. Some obtained by you in parliamentary

:39:18.:39:21.

questions asked by you, you ought to know. If only people would discuss

:39:22.:39:24.

this and let's discuss it factually. I wrote a book on this, it contains

:39:25.:39:28.

the details of how this happened. Why don't you pay any attention, you

:39:29.:39:32.

say you are worried about your kids... Hang on. We have run out of

:39:33.:39:36.

time. If you are worried about your children you should not be pleased

:39:37.:39:41.

with the way they are exposed wholly to a completely unrestrained

:39:42.:39:44.

cannabis trade. Peter, hang on, let Nick Clegg answer Peter, of course

:39:45.:39:48.

is correct when he is saying that there is sort of de facto

:39:49.:39:51.

decriminalisation going on. Thank you. I'm going to right that down

:39:52.:39:57.

and quote T It is not a remarkable discovery. . You have never said T

:39:58.:40:03.

you have said a couple of years a... ALL TALK AT

:40:04.:40:07.

ONCE Pietersener, you need to let him speak, it is not a monologue.

:40:08.:40:11.

Let him speak. You do yourself no favours with this. I'm doing a big

:40:12.:40:17.

favour. Nick Clegg I'm pointing out his views are not remarkable. Of

:40:18.:40:21.

course there is de facto decriminalisation going on, the

:40:22.:40:24.

Chief Constable in Durham has made it clear his police officers are not

:40:25.:40:27.

going to arrest people for the personal possession of cannabis. On

:40:28.:40:34.

that narrow point I agree, let's have honesty decriminalisation is

:40:35.:40:36.

happening. What people doesn't address is that you have this sort

:40:37.:40:41.

of legal twilight world where it is happening in practice but it is not

:40:42.:40:45.

recognised in law, at the same time, it is the criminal gangs who

:40:46.:40:48.

nonetheless continue to profit from it all. My question is - to what -

:40:49.:40:56.

at what point is criminality, mass criminality the answer to drugs and

:40:57.:40:59.

the what were that they do to individuals? I have never understood

:41:00.:41:03.

why anyone think that is letting criminals run this industry is the

:41:04.:41:07.

best way to protect youngsters. Because they have no interest in

:41:08.:41:12.

protecting youngsters whatsoever. So let cynical businessman run t like

:41:13.:41:15.

they ran the tobacco industry. Thank you.

:41:16.:41:18.

A quiet day today. So the Prime Minister has today

:41:19.:41:33.

joined forces with the former General Secretary of the TUC,

:41:34.:41:36.

Brendan Barber, arguing that leaving poses a 'triple threat'

:41:37.:41:38.

to workers: on jobs, But this morning, in the Commons,

:41:39.:41:40.

eurosceptic Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin claimed

:41:41.:41:44.

that the government had done a dirty deal over the Trade Union Bill,

:41:45.:41:46.

watering it down in exchange for Union backing - and cash -

:41:47.:41:49.

for the 'Remain' campaign. It has been confirmed to me,

:41:50.:41:51.

through more than two independent sources,

:41:52.:41:54.

Number Ten instructed these concessions to be made,

:41:55.:41:55.

after the discussions This being true, would amount

:41:56.:41:57.

to the sale of Government policy This wreaks of the same

:41:58.:42:00.

as "cash for questions". This shows this Government really

:42:01.:42:06.

is at the rotten heart We're joined now by Patrick Minford,

:42:07.:42:08.

one of eight economists in favour of Britain leaving

:42:09.:42:17.

the European Union, who have said this morning that quitting

:42:18.:42:20.

the single market would boost national income and raise

:42:21.:42:22.

living standards. Would it not be fair to say when we

:42:23.:42:45.

have the IMF, EECD, the World Bank, Treasury, IMS, all saying that...

:42:46.:42:47.

That you represent a perfectly distinguish group of economists, you

:42:48.:42:50.

are outliars on this debate? When you are say we are outlayers, it is

:42:51.:42:53.

an impressive list but all Her Majesty's Government's friends which

:42:54.:42:56.

have been lined up to pitch in and how many have done any work on this?

:42:57.:43:02.

What we have done, is a lot of work on this, ape the glaring kind of

:43:03.:43:06.

hole in the modelling of the Government, in a nutshell, is that

:43:07.:43:10.

they have assumed we leave the tariffs of the EU in tact when we

:43:11.:43:15.

leave. Our point is this is crazy because the big gain from leaving

:43:16.:43:20.

the EU is to get rid of tariffs and go to unilateral free trade. That's

:43:21.:43:26.

the option. When you do that you unleash a dynamic of falling price,

:43:27.:43:29.

food prices for the poor, very important. Manufacturing prices.

:43:30.:43:33.

These are raised 20% by EU protectionism. Let me unpick that.

:43:34.:43:50.

Because that's interesting. First of all, does

:43:51.:46:02.

Our consumers are paying for it. All of these bodies you've spoken about

:46:03.:46:08.

have not looked to these point. The assumed wittingly carry on imposing

:46:09.:46:13.

the common external tariff on everybody outside. The entire point

:46:14.:46:19.

of leaving the EU is to gain freedom over our commercial policy, our

:46:20.:46:22.

trade barriers and move to free trade. Nick Clegg? I am perplexed.

:46:23.:46:30.

Is there any guest I will agree with? I didn't realise that was the

:46:31.:46:38.

exercise. I hear to disagree with everyone? I am perplexed because the

:46:39.:46:44.

single market is created by your former boss, Margaret Thatcher. If

:46:45.:46:48.

you pull out of it, but you just said you would. And then abide by

:46:49.:46:54.

WTO, it would absolutely hammer British export manufacturing,

:46:55.:46:58.

700,000 people working in the car many factoring industry in this

:46:59.:47:02.

country would suddenly faced 10% tariffs, the farming community would

:47:03.:47:06.

have 30% tariffs, the benchmark one Gisby kebab. You would have a very

:47:07.:47:10.

detrimental effect on manufacturing, yet the rest of our economy, so

:47:11.:47:15.

important to services. Would be a lot out of the actors we need to

:47:16.:47:19.

single market. I find it very curious free to do. You must read

:47:20.:47:23.

our report for the full answer but basically the single market does not

:47:24.:47:28.

apply much to services yet. Leslie that on one side because it's not

:47:29.:47:34.

that it is not complete. So we leave that on one side and it's small

:47:35.:47:38.

potatoes in this argument. That is the answer to your last point. On

:47:39.:47:43.

the first point, what you forget, who pays for all of this protection?

:47:44.:47:47.

The answer is the British consumer. In addition, the British consumer

:47:48.:47:54.

pays for higher prices, for German and French partners and German and

:47:55.:48:01.

French manufacturers. The British Digital carries an enormous load.

:48:02.:48:06.

For you see dust bodies are wiped out his element, they have forgotten

:48:07.:48:11.

that when we leave, the best policy is to get rid of all of this. Every

:48:12.:48:18.

first year student in those that free trade dominates protectionism.

:48:19.:48:23.

What the Treasury in their wisdom have neglected is that this move to

:48:24.:48:26.

free trade is beneficial to the British economy. You were talking

:48:27.:48:31.

about unilateral free trade, saying we should take with all of our

:48:32.:48:35.

tariffs, even if other countries keep their tariffs against us.

:48:36.:48:40.

Exactly. One of the things we make in our report is that trade

:48:41.:48:45.

agreements, which everyone is banging on about, have no effect on

:48:46.:48:49.

our welfare and trade. They divert trade, they do not affect the total

:48:50.:48:54.

of trade. This talk about trade agreements which Nick and his

:48:55.:48:57.

friends are banging on about is irrelevant. What matters is our

:48:58.:49:01.

tariffs because we are a small the world market. What we can influence

:49:02.:49:04.

is the price are consumers pay, and that is what we focus on. With all

:49:05.:49:10.

of these August bodies and great men like Nick have not looked at this.

:49:11.:49:17.

Where can I view as read about it? There is a pamphlet on our website.

:49:18.:49:28.

Thank you. Our poor children being let down by poor teaching? A report

:49:29.:49:32.

from the commission on inequality in education and the social market

:49:33.:49:35.

foundation, which is chaired by our guest of the day, Nick Clegg, says

:49:36.:49:39.

disadvantaged children are more likely to have less experienced

:49:40.:49:43.

teachers with fewer qualifications in more affluent ones. Adam has been

:49:44.:49:47.

asking people here in London to speak about the teachers who had a

:49:48.:49:51.

big impact on them. Who's your favourite and why? A man called Mr

:49:52.:49:58.

Rheingold, who was an ex-prisoner of war, fantastic teacher. And

:49:59.:50:05.

stimulated thoughts, ideas, and everything. I was always bottle of

:50:06.:50:11.

the class because I never listened. Never did any homework, and it was

:50:12.:50:14.

the maths teacher. I was always quite good at maths and she took me

:50:15.:50:19.

under the wing as she listened and I went up the class. That was a

:50:20.:50:24.

favourite. Mr locum for my English teacher. He just made everything

:50:25.:50:29.

fun. Is that the most important thing? Yes, because if you have fun

:50:30.:50:32.

while learning your reserved information better and learn to

:50:33.:50:39.

enjoy it more. He was yours? I didn't really like any of my

:50:40.:50:47.

teachers. At school? Mrs Hirst, English teacher, fantastic. Gave me

:50:48.:50:53.

a love of literature, brilliant. Stayed with me for my entire life.

:50:54.:50:57.

Do you think teachers can be taught how to be good? No, it would have to

:50:58.:51:02.

be Mr Farrell because he made economic relative and quite fun.

:51:03.:51:08.

Have you been using economic knowledge in the last few years? I'm

:51:09.:51:16.

a trainee accountant, so yes. You only Everything! I wouldn't go that

:51:17.:51:20.

far but I do treat him to the odd pint when I go back. You start out

:51:21.:51:24.

with him? Every Christmas. Who was your favourite teacher was like Ms

:51:25.:51:33.

Holden, the first time I ever liked will go up at conferences Lien the

:51:34.:51:37.

return of the Jedi. And she was a teacher. We are joined by the Vice

:51:38.:51:42.

the University. Nick Clegg Comey said this research of disadvantaged

:51:43.:51:49.

pupils get a grand slam of poor teaching. The research done by the

:51:50.:51:53.

social market foundation and a data lad that look at the latest facts

:51:54.:52:01.

and figures is that schools, catering for higher numbers of

:52:02.:52:04.

children and free school meals, which is the best if somewhat

:52:05.:52:09.

approximate way of doing it. It's the best measure of disadvantage,

:52:10.:52:13.

they tend to have teachers with law or no qualifications. Ohio numbers

:52:14.:52:20.

of teachers with low or no qualifications. Teachers without

:52:21.:52:23.

degrees in subjects are higher numbers of teachers without degrees

:52:24.:52:27.

in the subject they are teaching and higher turnover of teachers. For

:52:28.:52:31.

that reason a lower number of experienced. Those combined to

:52:32.:52:37.

create, despite the good efforts of the teachers there, lower quality

:52:38.:52:40.

teaching. This is long established that of all the things that affect a

:52:41.:52:45.

Chad Dawson at education, curriculum, class sizes, if it is

:52:46.:52:48.

called an academy or not. The quality of teaching remains at the

:52:49.:52:56.

most important thing. As we progress through this year along commission

:52:57.:52:59.

and peel away the different layers of the problem, it appears that the

:53:00.:53:05.

qualifications and longevity and experience of teachers in the

:53:06.:53:09.

classroom and schools need the most of their qualified teachers. It's

:53:10.:53:17.

the wrong way around, I understand. Having teachers who are qualified in

:53:18.:53:20.

the subject they are teaching, they should have good degrees or

:53:21.:53:23.

professional qualifications in that area. I was lucky when I was at

:53:24.:53:28.

school that my teachers had honours degrees in the areas they were

:53:29.:53:33.

teaching. Is it your arguments they also need a postgraduate certificate

:53:34.:53:36.

of education that they need to be qualified not just in their subject,

:53:37.:53:42.

but also as teachers? I think this is where can I do assure making to

:53:43.:53:45.

speak about this more expertly, the section defines the real because you

:53:46.:53:52.

can say I have a brilliant history teacher who never had qualified

:53:53.:53:55.

teacher status and they were the most inspiring teacher ever. That

:53:56.:53:58.

might be true and I'm sure there are lots of cases like that, but the

:53:59.:54:02.

general principle appears and the evidence is pretty overwhelming for

:54:03.:54:06.

it, that having a qualified teacher status does raise the standard and

:54:07.:54:09.

quality of teaching in the classroom. Let me put that point

:54:10.:54:14.

Anthony. Teaching is a profession, you characters page up and thing you

:54:15.:54:17.

can do it because you are well taught. I think Nick and the

:54:18.:54:21.

commission right to put a spotlight on teaching in the most deprived

:54:22.:54:29.

areas where you do need to have the best possible teachers and that

:54:30.:54:32.

stability that Nix speaks about because continuity, known faces and

:54:33.:54:38.

contrast and families as well. What about this qualified teaching status

:54:39.:54:42.

was not differ on that because qualified matters but you can do it

:54:43.:54:45.

the job. I wouldn't want to leave so many gaps in the King as people

:54:46.:54:52.

think an entirely out from my life that makes entire year out from my

:54:53.:54:55.

life, learning on the job does work. He said teaching as a profession.

:54:56.:55:02.

Learning on the job is a trade. That is what journalists do. We are a

:55:03.:55:05.

trade not a profession, learn on the job. What you just described is what

:55:06.:55:11.

traders, a profession get a qualification that makes, a

:55:12.:55:17.

profession get a qualification. It is different but it's not planned

:55:18.:55:22.

internet. You learn best, I did that year out, learned best from being in

:55:23.:55:26.

schools where as part of that there was lots of training in the school.

:55:27.:55:34.

What really helped me to learn how to teach as far as I can was to see

:55:35.:55:42.

other people teach and there's no alternative to getting in front of

:55:43.:55:49.

people. It is not either or. Professional qualifications involve

:55:50.:55:54.

on-the-job training. You are quite right. And if you do ask new

:55:55.:56:01.

teachers, one wonderful thing is you have lots of newly qualified

:56:02.:56:05.

teachers who actively want to go to the schools with the highest number

:56:06.:56:10.

of challenges. What goes wrong, they do not stay for some reason. And one

:56:11.:56:15.

of the things they say is that what they want most is a more experienced

:56:16.:56:22.

teacher in that same subject. To help them plan classes and so on.

:56:23.:56:26.

That is something some schools and Academies trust stew but it needs to

:56:27.:56:31.

be done on a more widespread scale and we should consider whether we

:56:32.:56:39.

pay them. I think I could walk into Nick's old school and teach a class

:56:40.:56:44.

on political science or economic some. Without training. For a little

:56:45.:56:51.

bit, at least. It would be much more difficult to go into a difficult

:56:52.:56:54.

school and teach subjects without advice on how to handle these

:56:55.:56:58.

children who have got all sorts of problems. But it is seeing the

:56:59.:57:05.

really gritty experienced teachers doing it, seeing the real-life

:57:06.:57:10.

interactions and seemed you do it, Nick talking about men touring

:57:11.:57:16.

important things. There is something different about teaching, you have

:57:17.:57:21.

to do it on the job. Trainee doctors get medical tuition and they go into

:57:22.:57:26.

the water. The other key thing is leadership, if you get great

:57:27.:57:31.

leadership, so we are setting up a leadership college because nothing

:57:32.:57:34.

matters more than a headship. Then the teachers whilst an and they will

:57:35.:57:38.

attract the best quality and retain them. You both agree on that, and

:57:39.:57:45.

where can we see this report? On the Social Market Foundation website.

:57:46.:57:46.

Thank you. Nick Clegg has talked his way out of

:57:47.:57:55.

having his knowledge tested on the late Prince. Can you remember the

:57:56.:58:00.

question for our quiz of the day. There's just time before we go

:58:01.:58:07.

to find out the answer to our quiz. As we've been hearing,

:58:08.:58:10.

Nick Clegg is a big music fan. But which '80s popstar did

:58:11.:58:14.

he dress up as when he was Was it - a) Mick Jagger,

:58:15.:58:16.

b) David Bowie, c) Freddie Mercury, Ziggy Stardust. We have a picture.

:58:17.:58:26.

Thank you for the picture of David Bowie, I was going to say! It could

:58:27.:58:32.

be anybody. That is very embarrassing, thank you very much.

:58:33.:58:34.

Good job it is not late-night television.

:58:35.:58:40.

And I will be on BBC One for This Week with Shelagh Fogarty,

:58:41.:58:43.

Anne McElvoy, historian Susanah Lipsscomb, Michael Portillo,

:58:44.:58:45.

Alan Johnson, Miranda Green and John Nicolson, from 11:45

:58:46.:58:47.

And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:58:48.:58:56.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by former deputy prime minister and Sheffield MP Nick Clegg. Was it right to suspend South Yorkshire's police chief over Hillsborough? Plus Ken Livingstone on allegations of anti-Semitism in the Labour party.


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