17/05/2016 Daily Politics


17/05/2016

Michael Howard joins Jo Coburn for a look ahead at what might be in the Queen's Speech and an examination of Michael Gove's proposals to reform the prison system.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Nigel Farage raises the prospect of a second EU referendum

:00:40.:00:43.

if there's a close result on June 23rd -

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Are saying there would be resentment from Conservatives that

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David Cameron had not been playing fairly.

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David Cameron launches another attack on Leave campaigners -

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accusing them of being vague about the economic impact

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We'll have all the latest from the referendum campaign.

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The Queen travels to Westminster tomorrow to officially open

:01:03.:01:06.

and outline the government's legislative plans.

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And a new play celebrates the political life of

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Screaming Lord Sutch - the founder and leader

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We'll talk to the playwright and the party's current leader.

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and with us for the whole of the programme today

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the former leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard.

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Let's kick off with Theresa May's speech

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to the Police Federation this morning.

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In the past the Home Secretary has had a rocky relationship

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with the organisation that represents rank-and file officers

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after being booed in 2012 and last year accusing them

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and commended the police for "doing a fantastic job"

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six years ago, I stood on this platform and address due for the

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first time. On each occasion since then, I've talked about the

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wide-ranging programme of reform I've put in place since becoming

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Home Secretary. A programme which, let's face it, you haven't always

:02:30.:02:34.

agreed with and at times have resisted. But, six years on, British

:02:35.:02:40.

policing has changed substantially for the better. We've overhauled

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inadequate institutions and systems, reduced excessive bureaucracy and

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inadequate institutions and systems, replaced a centralised model of

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inadequate institutions and systems, governance with democratic

:02:52.:02:51.

accountability. That sounded governance with democratic

:02:52.:02:59.

and calm. What happened to the usual confrontation? The Home Secretary

:03:00.:03:04.

was right to talk about the progress that's been made over the last six

:03:05.:03:09.

years. She and they have both done an extremely good job. As the police

:03:10.:03:19.

forced changed since she became Home Secretary? She has been there a long

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time. She has. And I think it has changed for the better. The

:03:25.:03:30.

reputation of the police has been dented by Hillsborough, for example.

:03:31.:03:31.

That's true, and it dented by Hillsborough, for example.

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it is something that has to be addressed and is being addressed

:03:36.:03:39.

either affirms the Home Secretary to about. Although the Police

:03:40.:03:41.

Federation have talked about about. Although the Police

:03:42.:03:47.

fact that Hillsborough doesn't make for good legislation. Do they have

:03:48.:03:55.

fact that Hillsborough doesn't make point? It depends on what they are

:03:56.:03:56.

talking about and what legislation you have in mind. I have

:03:57.:04:00.

talking about and what legislation in the Home Secretary and don't

:04:01.:04:00.

think she in the Home Secretary and don't

:04:01.:04:03.

legislation that isn't extremely well considered. We will have to see

:04:04.:04:10.

what she has. Plans like pensions being stripped from certain

:04:11.:04:14.

officers. Do you think these are things that should be strengthened

:04:15.:04:19.

if police are found to have behaved badly? I'm going to wait and see

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what the Home Secretary comes up with and I will give you my view

:04:23.:04:28.

them. After the event. The Police Federation of England and Wales

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claimed a national shortage of armed police leaves Britain vulnerable to

:04:33.:04:37.

terror attacks. Do use the pies with them? Of course. It is a serious

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situation and I'm sure the Home Secretary will take it seriously. --

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do you sympathise? In the time when the terror alert for, for example,

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Irish Republican has been strengthened, does it make it a bad

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time for that? She needs to look at some of the guidance which exists

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which means that being a firearms officer is a perilous job to half

:05:14.:05:20.

because of the outcry that often occurs when firearms have to be

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used, sometimes justifiably but not always. I don't think it is just a

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question of money. If we wanted more armed officers, there would have to

:05:30.:05:35.

be more money spent. No. It is a question of how many police officers

:05:36.:05:39.

want to become the offices that have the special training that enables

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them to become armed officers. That is part of the problem. We will

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leave it there. The spymasters at GCHQ

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in Cheltenham are on a mission to open up to the public,

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so our question for today is, what have they done to try

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to improve their image? b) Enter Robert Hannigan,

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the Director of GCHQ, as a contestent

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on Strictly Come Dancing as their new director

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of communications. At the end of the show, Michael

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will give us the correct answer. It's been a busy morning

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on the referendum campaign trail - with both sides taking

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potshots at each other. First up, Nigel Farage -

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who told BBC Breakfast he thought there might be calls for a second

:06:21.:06:24.

referendum if the result puts Remain I think we are going win

:06:25.:06:27.

this referendum. Because there's far more passion

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on the Leave side of the argument. Leave voters are much more likely,

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on June 23rd, to go down to the local

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primary school and vote. If we were to lose, narrowly,

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which I don't believe we will, if we were, then what I can see

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is a large section, particularly in the Conservative Party,

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who feel the Prime Minister is not playing fair,

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that the Remain side are using way more money

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than the Leave side and there would be, you know,

:06:55.:06:57.

a resentment that would build up if that

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was to be the result. Having said that, I still think

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Leave is going to win. Next came the Shadow

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Chancellor John McDonnell, whose speech had been billed

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as the progressive case He defended immigration into the UK

:07:13.:07:14.

and accused Brexit campaigners of It's the Tories who enacted a

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top-down reorganisation of our NHS, It's the Tories cuts

:07:20.:07:28.

to our schools budgets, It's not the fault of

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Polish fruit pickers or Latvian care workers that

:07:38.:07:46.

house-building is at its lowest in It's the Tory failure

:07:47.:07:49.

to build more homes. We don't blame the people

:07:50.:07:52.

who work in our public services and make

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such a valuable contribution to our economy and society for the state

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of those public services and we won't give an inch

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to the anti-migrant rubbish of some of those

:08:00.:08:01.

campaigning for Brexit. And in the last hour

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the Prime Minister has also been making a set-piece speech -

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arguing that a vote to leave the EU We heard it from the Bank

:08:07.:08:09.

of England, from the OECD, from the IMF, the Treasury,

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from the Office for Budget Responsibility

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and many others besides. I think, when very respected

:08:16.:08:18.

organisations are saying, as clearly as they are,

:08:19.:08:22.

that output would be lower, growth would be less,

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unemployment would be higher, prices would be higher, we would see

:08:25.:08:30.

a hit to living standards, that there is a very clear consensus

:08:31.:08:35.

that leaving the EU would have not just a short-term affect

:08:36.:08:39.

on confidence and investment and growth, but actually would

:08:40.:08:47.

have a longer-term affect as well. We've been joined by the leader

:08:48.:08:50.

of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron. We'll talk about this morning's

:08:51.:08:53.

interventions in a moment, but first let's discuss the front

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page of this morning's Daily Mail whose headline is "Exposed -

:08:56.:08:58.

Cameron's EU Sham". Suggesting that David Cameron was

:08:59.:09:12.

planning his campaign to remain in the EU even before he'd signed off

:09:13.:09:16.

on his EU reform deal. Boris Johnson was asked about this as he left

:09:17.:09:21.

number ten after attending the political Cabinet meeting where he

:09:22.:09:27.

compared the stitch up to like the buyer tapestry, in typically

:09:28.:09:32.

colourful language. David Cameron was choreographic elements of the

:09:33.:09:35.

remain campaign when he was still negotiating with each new leaders,

:09:36.:09:42.

so the story goes. So what? I don't know if there is any truth in the

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story. The important thing that the renegotiation that the Prime

:09:49.:09:52.

Minister wanted to achieve, fundamental and far-reaching reform

:09:53.:09:57.

of the EU didn't happen. It's hardly mentioned now in the debate. No one

:09:58.:10:02.

pretends that the reforms that he obtained in the renegotiation where

:10:03.:10:05.

anything like what he wanted, anything like what he originally set

:10:06.:10:11.

out to. Is that because you feel he was already committed to remain and

:10:12.:10:16.

never thought about leaving? I don't know what was in his innermost

:10:17.:10:22.

thoughts. He genuinely set out to achieve far-reaching reform. It's

:10:23.:10:26.

not his fault he didn't achieve it. It is the blindness of European

:10:27.:10:29.

leaders who didn't recognise the need for reform. But the story

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claims that he was not out to get the best deal, he was already

:10:35.:10:41.

setting out his campaign to remain. He was planning on that basis. That

:10:42.:10:46.

was what the renegotiation was based on. I think he tried to get the

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fundamental and far-reaching reform he wanted but he failed. So this

:10:51.:10:55.

idea of being a stitch up isn't true? I don't want to get involved

:10:56.:11:00.

in that argument. Objectively, what we can all do is look at the results

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of the re-negotiation and, frankly, they didn't amount to very much. In

:11:05.:11:10.

terms of the claims that it is a stitch up, it does feed the idea,

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Tim Farren, that you and the others are lining up the establishment to

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browbeat the public into remaining. I think this is a nonstory.

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Britain's best interests are in remaining in the European Union. The

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fact that businesses large and small are lining up saying that we would

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be foolish to leave the European Union, a massive risk to our economy

:11:48.:11:51.

would have been the case before the re-negotiation and clearly is now.

:11:52.:11:55.

It is not browbeating anyone. If you're going to make the biggest

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collective political decision in our lifetime, it is important to have

:12:01.:12:04.

the facts. Those people who understand how the economy works and

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who employ the bulk of people in this country, it is right that their

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voices are heard. Doesn't it prove that the renegotiation was a

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cosmetic exercise? That is for the Prime Minister to answer. I don't

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think it matters too many people beyond the Westminster echo chamber.

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Beyond there, people are thinking are we more secure, are we better

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off, are we better off with our friends and neighbours in these

:12:33.:12:36.

dangerous times or are we better off isolated? Isn't it true that your

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side has lost the economic argument? Not at all. The only thing that you

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can say is that the forecasts would be wrong. They are all right. I

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can't say with any certainty that those who support our side of the

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argument are going to be right. We don't know.

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argument are going to be right. We wrong. What we do know is that many

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of the large organisations that are urging us to stay,

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of the large organisations that are like Tim, were the

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of the large organisations that are cheerleaders for our joining the

:13:09.:13:14.

euro. And they could not have been more wrong. Tim could not have been

:13:15.:13:20.

the people who got it so wrong when there was the important issue to

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decide of joining the euro? Has that damaged your credibility? When you

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listen to people like the CBI, people who are often dismissed by

:13:33.:13:37.

people on Michael's side of the argument, people who say it is a

:13:38.:13:43.

great establishment conspiracy, all forecasts are approximations but we

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do know that if we remain in the European Union we retain

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do know that if we remain in the single market which is worth ?78

:13:51.:13:54.

billion per year to our economy. 3 million jobs depend in large part on

:13:55.:13:59.

the trade with that economy. If we go outside, all that is at risk. We

:14:00.:14:06.

could still have access, though. That figure is rubbish. It is the

:14:07.:14:15.

CBI figure. The CBI were wrong about the euro. There is a lot of money

:14:16.:14:20.

and lots of jobs that depend on our continuing to trade with the

:14:21.:14:25.

European Union. Inside or outside the European market?

:14:26.:14:27.

European Union. Inside or outside outside we will be able to trade

:14:28.:14:31.

with the European Union just as we trade with other countries in the

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world, even if we are outside the single market. It is ridiculous to

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suggest that the Germans are not going to want to sell as BMWs, the

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French are not going to want to sell as cheese and wine, in order for

:14:46.:14:50.

that to happen, we will have a perfectly sensible trading

:14:51.:14:56.

relationship. At a cost. The economic argument has been difficult

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to find institutions to line up and support your side, do you think an

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immigration it is a stronger card? Let's emphasise the fact that we had

:15:07.:15:10.

hundreds of businessmen writing to the Daily Telegraph yesterday saying

:15:11.:15:14.

they could create more jobs if we leave the European Union. I don't

:15:15.:15:18.

accept that we have lost the argument. What about immigration?

:15:19.:15:26.

Referendum is not about the level of immigration. That is that's what

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some people think it is B It is about who should decide the level.

:15:33.:15:36.

The levels could be the same I think there are people in our country who

:15:37.:15:40.

think the current levels are fine, there are people who don't. I think

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we should be able to argue it out n this country and decide in this

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country and at the moment, while we are in the European Union, we have

:15:48.:15:51.

no control. We don't make the decisions. That message is cutting

:15:52.:15:54.

through, isn't T even if you could argue that you maybe stronger on the

:15:55.:15:57.

economic Melsage, immigration, which is important to many people, is

:15:58.:16:01.

not... When you examine the issue, immigration does not work as an

:16:02.:16:05.

argument for the leave side for two years, fist, there are roughly 2

:16:06.:16:09.

million EU citizens working and living in the UK and there are #

:16:10.:16:12.

million living and working elsewhere in the European Union. It is

:16:13.:16:18.

neutral. The second thing is Dan Hammond, Conservative MEP leaver

:16:19.:16:21.

pointed o ut this morning if you are part of the European free trade

:16:22.:16:25.

area, we would still be subject to the EU's rules when it comes to

:16:26.:16:30.

movement and border of labour. And if we leave the European Union and

:16:31.:16:34.

have access to the single market as Michael wants us to do it. ' Cost us

:16:35.:16:39.

probably as much as it does to be in the EU, we will have no more. If you

:16:40.:16:44.

want to lose sovereignty, you leave the EU I'm not sure about

:16:45.:16:47.

immigration being neutral, for the Leave campaign in terms of polling.

:16:48.:16:51.

It is a reality. There are as many people in the EU here... That is

:16:52.:16:56.

besides the point. And I don't believe, if we vote to leave, that

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we will sign up to any arrangement or agreement which with continue to

:17:00.:17:04.

deprive us of our right to dewho should come into this country and

:17:05.:17:15.

who shouldn't. -- right to decide. What about nighing ale Farage's

:17:16.:17:20.

comments, that there could be a second referendum. Do you support

:17:21.:17:24.

that? No, I think it is a once in a lifetime time to decide the future

:17:25.:17:28.

and we have to accept it. Even if it is really close, a whisker either

:17:29.:17:32.

way? The result of the Welsh referendum on devolution was as

:17:33.:17:34.

close as you could possibly get. Look at the Scottish independence

:17:35.:17:37.

question. That has come around again. Well it hasn't. It hasn't and

:17:38.:17:42.

it may well not. I don't believe it will, actually. So it hasn't come

:17:43.:17:46.

around again. Well the discussion on it has. Well, you can have

:17:47.:17:50.

discussions. They said it would be settled for a generation You can

:17:51.:17:54.

have discussions for as long as it takes for the cows to come home. I

:17:55.:17:58.

think we have to September result of the referendum. I hope everybody

:17:59.:18:01.

will, however close. Well, Michael Howard says he hopes it will be

:18:02.:18:04.

accepted by everybody but let's say it is only a Is withker for Remain,

:18:05.:18:09.

wouldn't there be legitimate calls then for it to be run a second time

:18:10.:18:14.

by, certainly Conservatives, perhaps not Michael Howard, but many of his

:18:15.:18:17.

colleagues who wanted snout I'm sure it'll fester in the Conservative

:18:18.:18:20.

Party, especially for many years to come. -- who wanted out? But as far

:18:21.:18:26.

as the electorate is concerned, it is a once? A generation to express

:18:27.:18:31.

our views r we getter off in, together with colleagues and

:18:32.:18:34.

friends, protecting our security, jobs and economy or isolated and on

:18:35.:18:38.

our own and less powerful. Once the decision is made we have to stick

:18:39.:18:42.

with it. You say we have to stick with it. We ought to abide by it.

:18:43.:18:46.

But if the accusations are that the Government hasn't set out a level

:18:47.:18:50.

playing field, particularly with money spent on campaign leaflets,

:18:51.:18:54.

would there be an argument to fuel calls for a second referendum.

:18:55.:18:59.

Im'sure those in the Conservative Party won't shut up if we vote to

:19:00.:19:10.

remain. What about Boris Johnson. Look carefully at what he says. I z

:19:11.:19:16.

he talked about Napoleon. He was talking about the various attempts

:19:17.:19:20.

over made over the centuries to unite the countries of Europe. It

:19:21.:19:24.

was an entirely accurate historical annal sichls he is a great asset A

:19:25.:19:29.

very -- analysis. He is a great asset. A popular figure and putting

:19:30.:19:34.

the case in his own fashion. Even Donald tusk argues - when I hear the

:19:35.:19:39.

EU being compared it the plans and projects of Adolf Hitler I can't

:19:40.:19:43.

remain silent. It wasn't. He probably didn't read boys's speech.

:19:44.:19:47.

I don't think it is a fair characterisation of the speech. --

:19:48.:19:51.

Boris' speech. He is probably such a big character he is probably pulling

:19:52.:19:55.

a lot of vote e if you look how well he polled, very difficult. I don't

:19:56.:20:00.

want to get into a battle of personalities. I I share the

:20:01.:20:06.

frustration, if the debate becomes a blue on blue, slug fest between two

:20:07.:20:11.

guy who is went to the same school it'll not give people any idea of

:20:12.:20:15.

the real issues for and against. It is why we need it xt issues, a tough

:20:16.:20:19.

decision with huge risks. -- examine the issues. The British people want

:20:20.:20:22.

those answers, not a schoolboy knock B

:20:23.:20:23.

Thank you. -- knock about. The referendum campaign

:20:24.:20:27.

has been pretty bruising for the Conservative Party -

:20:28.:20:29.

with fellow Conservatives trading blows and at times using some

:20:30.:20:31.

fruity language against each other. So it the issue tearing

:20:32.:20:34.

the party apart? If we vote to Leave on 23rd June,

:20:35.:20:38.

we will be voting for higher prices. It is a great grotesque

:20:39.:20:42.

patronising and proposterous Peter

:20:43.:20:54.

Mandelsonion conceit, that imagines that the people

:20:55.:20:56.

of this country are mere children, capable of being frightened into

:20:57.:21:01.

obedience by conjuring up new bogey The next thing we know the Leave

:21:02.:21:04.

camp will be accusing us of faking the moon landings,

:21:05.:21:11.

kidnapping Shergar and covering up the existence of the

:21:12.:21:14.

Loch Ness Monster. There are certain problems that

:21:15.:21:16.

are caused by EU membership but of Her arguments are enough to persuade

:21:17.:21:19.

me to vote Leave and should be enough to persuade most

:21:20.:21:23.

people to vote Leave. # Love, love will tear

:21:24.:21:25.

us apart again # If we left the EU, we would face

:21:26.:21:33.

more regulations and be in double whammy of EU regulations

:21:34.:21:38.

and UK regulations. You see these kind of Downing Street

:21:39.:21:43.

hostage videos, these people coming Knickers to the pessimists -

:21:44.:21:49.

how about that? # Love, love will tear

:21:50.:21:55.

us apart again...# Yet another example of that fraughty

:21:56.:22:05.

language, courtesy of Boris Johnson. Let's talk post of EU referendum. 37

:22:06.:22:10.

days to go. If only it was coming a little

:22:11.:22:15.

quicker. The disappointment for the losing side, whichever side it is,

:22:16.:22:19.

will have bred such resentment and bitterness. How will both sides of

:22:20.:22:22.

the Conservative Party come together? Well we have to. We have

:22:23.:22:25.

to get together because the Conservative Party has to form the

:22:26.:22:29.

Government of our country, for at least the next four years and given

:22:30.:22:32.

the current state of the Labour Party, probably for much longer than

:22:33.:22:36.

that and so we have to come together and we will. Really? How do you

:22:37.:22:42.

know? Let's look back in history, post Maastricht and John Major,

:22:43.:22:46.

those sides never forgave each other,

:22:47.:22:46.

those sides never forgave each resolved It was very different. Why

:22:47.:22:52.

different? It was the same issue? It was different,

:22:53.:22:54.

different? It was the same issue? It was still a lot of bitterness

:22:55.:22:57.

different? It was the same issue? It the way in which Margaret Thatcher

:22:58.:23:02.

was turned out of office and that really had a huge affect which ran

:23:03.:23:04.

through to the post-Maastricht situation. We haven't got anything

:23:05.:23:09.

like that? Haven't you, there will be bitterness about this

:23:10.:23:12.

like that? Haven't you, there will playing field, accusations chucked

:23:13.:23:14.

around. There are lots of accusations being thrown about on

:23:15.:23:17.

both sides during the accusations being thrown about on

:23:18.:23:21.

referendum debate. When it is over, on June 24th, we simply have to come

:23:22.:23:28.

together. I would expect - whatever the result - - there is a lot of

:23:29.:23:32.

talk about the Prime Minister having a Cabinet reshuffle. I would expect

:23:33.:23:36.

him to have a new Cabinet which gave big jobs to people on the other side

:23:37.:23:38.

of the argument, from him. So, big jobs to people on the other side

:23:39.:23:44.

of the really key job, Chancellor? I don't know what. I will not get into

:23:45.:23:49.

the game of constructing the Cabinet. We've go the time. But he

:23:50.:23:54.

will recognise the need to unite the party and I think the Cabinet will

:23:55.:23:58.

reflect the different strands of opinion within the country, as

:23:59.:24:02.

indeed it does now. What about if Leave, if your side wins, do you

:24:03.:24:06.

still hold to the belief that David Cameron can continue as Prime

:24:07.:24:11.

Minister? Yes, I do. Look, we are going to have some challenges in

:24:12.:24:16.

front of us, if we vote to Leave. I think that challenge we can easily

:24:17.:24:20.

deal with. But the last thing we would want in that situation is the

:24:21.:24:22.

distraction of a Tory leadership campaign. So, David Cameron has said

:24:23.:24:27.

he will stay. I think he should stay and I think he will stay. But will

:24:28.:24:31.

your colleagues, Conservative colleagues, who have campaigned so

:24:32.:24:36.

vociferously, to Leave like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, would they

:24:37.:24:41.

really sit down and accept David Cameron as Prime Minister,

:24:42.:24:44.

negotiating out? Well, I'm sure they would. And I what I imagine David

:24:45.:24:50.

Cameron would do in that situation, I haven't discussed it with him, I

:24:51.:24:55.

don't know what is in his mind but what I would imagine he would do is

:24:56.:25:00.

select someone to conduct the negotiations, who had been arguing

:25:01.:25:03.

to Leave. That would be a sensible thing to do. We have heard from

:25:04.:25:06.

Boris Johnson, just today, he has accused the Prime Minister of a

:25:07.:25:10.

stitch-up in terms of planning and choreographing the Remain side with

:25:11.:25:17.

the big corporations as being the biggest stitch-up since the Bayu,

:25:18.:25:23.

tapestry. Priti Patel, look likened them to the three wise monkeys, hear

:25:24.:25:28.

no immigration, see no immigration, and speak no immigration And George

:25:29.:25:34.

Osborne yesterday accused us of being fantacists. There will be a

:25:35.:25:38.

coming together on June 24th. There has to be. You stha with fingers

:25:39.:25:42.

crossed rather than belief in terms of what is possible. I say it with

:25:43.:25:46.

total belief and confidence. I mean, divided parties, as you know, do not

:25:47.:25:50.

inspire confidence with the electorate. What about the damage

:25:51.:25:54.

being done, right now, with a divided party? Well, we will have

:25:55.:25:58.

power years to put that right and to come together again and to govern

:25:59.:26:02.

the country in the interests of the country. That's what the

:26:03.:26:05.

Conservative Party is always good at.

:26:06.:26:09.

Tomorrow is the State Opening of Parliament, which marks the start

:26:10.:26:11.

The highlight the day will be the Queen's Speech.

:26:12.:26:15.

It's the biggest of Parliamentary occasions and begins

:26:16.:26:17.

with a Royal procession from Buckingham Palace to Westminster.

:26:18.:26:19.

But what political hand luggage is the Queen tipped to be bringing

:26:20.:26:22.

Although the Queen will read it out, her speech is actually written

:26:23.:26:30.

by the Government and sets out the laws that the Government hopes

:26:31.:26:33.

to get approved by Parliament over the coming year.

:26:34.:26:37.

In it, she's expected to announce changes to the care system -

:26:38.:26:40.

including greater support for young people leaving care and speeding

:26:41.:26:43.

There'll also be changes to education in England -

:26:44.:26:49.

to allow more schools to become academies,

:26:50.:26:52.

encourage new non-profit and commercial companies to open

:26:53.:26:56.

private universities, and allow some universities

:26:57.:27:01.

Some of the big education ideas are being carried over to prisons - with

:27:02.:27:08.

a plan to give powers for "reform prisons" to take over failing jails,

:27:09.:27:11.

in a similar manner to school academy chains.

:27:12.:27:17.

There'll be a crackdown on extremists - stopping them

:27:18.:27:19.

working with children and the vulnerable by including

:27:20.:27:22.

extremism offences on criminal record checks.

:27:23.:27:26.

There could also be steps towards a new Bill of Rights,

:27:27.:27:29.

which would replace the Human Rights Act.

:27:30.:27:32.

The Queen will also announce changes to the powers of the Upper Chamber,

:27:33.:27:36.

limiting the Lords' ability to block legislation and finally there'll be

:27:37.:27:41.

some futuristic transport plans, with legislation on insuring

:27:42.:27:44.

driverless cars and the creation of Britain's first spaceport.

:27:45.:27:52.

And Daniel Thornton, from the Institute of Government,

:27:53.:27:54.

joining us now to talk about the Government's

:27:55.:27:56.

And the challenges of getting it through. Welcome. Is one of the

:27:57.:28:05.

biggest problems the backdrop of the EU referendum? It is certainly

:28:06.:28:08.

causing some problems. The other issues to bear in mind is the fact

:28:09.:28:11.

that the Government has a working majority of 17 and no majority at

:28:12.:28:15.

all in the House of Lords. It is trying to balance the budget by

:28:16.:28:19.

2020, so there is pretedy significant public spending cuts

:28:20.:28:22.

under way and there are far-reaching reforms in a number of public

:28:23.:28:25.

services. So, all these three things together make for a pretty

:28:26.:28:28.

challenging backdrop for the Government. Which legislative ideas

:28:29.:28:34.

are going to be the priorities? Well, I think the headlines will be

:28:35.:28:41.

probably taken by the extremism proposals, tackling terrorism and so

:28:42.:28:46.

on. But, for the institute for Government, the most interesting

:28:47.:28:51.

issue is the sort of intersection of the austerity in public services and

:28:52.:28:54.

the far-reaching reforms that round way and some of the signs of strain

:28:55.:29:00.

we are seeing. So, what we are saying, is that the Government

:29:01.:29:04.

really needs to prioritise and recognise the zrients it faces and

:29:05.:29:07.

be realistic about what it can achieve by when. This isn't just the

:29:08.:29:12.

Institute that is saying this. The Government's employed a lot of

:29:13.:29:15.

business people to help it run the Government. There is a lot of senior

:29:16.:29:19.

business people brought in. They have a pretty consistent MissAge for

:29:20.:29:22.

the Government. That is - prioritise F you are working in a big private

:29:23.:29:26.

sector company, the Chief Executive focuses on a small of things and

:29:27.:29:30.

make sure they are done properly. The Government is committed to a

:29:31.:29:34.

wide range of changes, as well as reducing the budgets in a number of

:29:35.:29:38.

services. Do you think it is just not workable. Their plans, as you

:29:39.:29:43.

are putting t ambitious plans for further austerity or zrients on

:29:44.:29:47.

public sector reform r they not workable? It will be challenging. --

:29:48.:29:56.

austerity or restraints. It will be cuts, and it will be ut

:29:57.:30:02.

can by 22% up to 2020. Much of the reductions will fall on the prisons.

:30:03.:30:07.

And, you know, we have seen an increase in violence in prisons, as

:30:08.:30:10.

a cross of had party committee was saying on Monday. So, there are

:30:11.:30:14.

warning signs from so. Public services. If you try and do a big

:30:15.:30:18.

reorganisation at the same time as the sfs is under strain, you are not

:30:19.:30:23.

necessarily going to achieve your objectives. -- at the same time as

:30:24.:30:27.

the service is under strain. It is welcome that Michael Gove has said

:30:28.:30:30.

he will be publishing draft legislation on prison, to give

:30:31.:30:34.

Parliament a chance to consider the proposals carefully. Thank you very

:30:35.:30:38.

much. We have been joined by the shadow Leader of the House of

:30:39.:30:40.

Commons, Chris Bryant. Welcome back. Those warning signs that our

:30:41.:30:44.

previous guest has talked about, do you recognise those that the public

:30:45.:30:48.

sector in certain areas will be put under too much strain - we'll

:30:49.:30:52.

discuss prisons later, but actually what will happen is the situation

:30:53.:30:53.

will get worse and people will be in Putting in place the programme to

:30:54.:31:04.

put things back in shape and in order is full of challenges. So far,

:31:05.:31:10.

the government has risen to those challenges and will continue to do

:31:11.:31:16.

so. I'm a great supporter of publishing proposals in draft

:31:17.:31:18.

legislation so Parliament has the opportunity to look at them and

:31:19.:31:26.

consider them and I'm delighted to hear that Michael Gove is planning

:31:27.:31:31.

to do that in relation to prisons. You say that the Tories have risen

:31:32.:31:35.

to the challenge but there is a long list of legislation that are being

:31:36.:31:41.

scrutinised or defeated because they haven't been thought through, so say

:31:42.:31:46.

the opposition, also your own side, tax credit cards, child refugees,

:31:47.:31:51.

trade union legislation, housing. They haven't risen to the challenge.

:31:52.:31:56.

They've been trying to push through bad legislation. Most of the defeats

:31:57.:32:00.

in the House of Lords have come from the fact that the Tories don't have

:32:01.:32:05.

a majority in the house of Lords and have been outvoted. There have been

:32:06.:32:08.

times when the government has been asked to think again and has fought

:32:09.:32:14.

again. It is a listening government. The house of Lords

:32:15.:32:18.

again. It is a listening government. happening in the Commons? First, I

:32:19.:32:24.

don't think you should be able to read out a list of what's

:32:25.:32:28.

don't think you should be able to Queens speech tomorrow. Parliament

:32:29.:32:33.

should hear about it first tomorrow. This is just what has been in the

:32:34.:32:38.

papers. Already announced in the papers and briefed out. That's

:32:39.:32:42.

naughty. I don't think the government is dealing

:32:43.:32:44.

naughty. I don't think the economic situation in this country.

:32:45.:32:47.

They've missed every target in terms of debt, cutting the deficit. One of

:32:48.:32:56.

the reasons is because often in their anti-austerity measures,

:32:57.:33:00.

they've cut off our noses to spite our face. They have public services

:33:01.:33:02.

which simply can't cope. One of the good things the government might

:33:03.:33:08.

want to do tomorrow is around children in care. You can't do that

:33:09.:33:12.

with local authorities that are pared back to the bone, in

:33:13.:33:16.

particular in the toughest areas. I feel most angry about Tory MPs who

:33:17.:33:28.

rebel getting more money to the richest authorities in the land

:33:29.:33:31.

while the poorest get cut more. I don't think we should have a Queen

:33:32.:33:36.

's speech tomorrow at all. It should be after the referendum. It will be

:33:37.:33:41.

candy floss with a nasty taste afterwards. The key point is that

:33:42.:33:46.

they are going to cut back the house of Lords because they are terrified

:33:47.:33:50.

that they lose bad legislation all the time. Pick up on your main

:33:51.:33:56.

point. The thrust of Chris Bryant's argument about whether austerity has

:33:57.:34:00.

been counter-productive. You are pushing public services so hard that

:34:01.:34:06.

you won't be able to do the things you want to do. It hasn't been

:34:07.:34:10.

counter-productive. We had to do it. We had to bring the nation's

:34:11.:34:16.

finances back into order. The debt hasn't disappeared yet. We haven't

:34:17.:34:21.

achieved everything but we are making a huge amount of progress

:34:22.:34:28.

towards achieving that difficult objective. Let's look for a point of

:34:29.:34:35.

agreement between Chris and I. We think Wales is a good country. We

:34:36.:34:41.

do. I absolutely agree about the importance of the measures to do

:34:42.:34:45.

with children in care, young people in care. I think they are overdue.

:34:46.:34:50.

It is something that should have been tackled a long time ago. I

:34:51.:34:55.

think you will find that the proposals are such that they will be

:34:56.:35:00.

Cape ball of being put in place without putting undue burdens on

:35:01.:35:04.

local authorities. The undue burden is already there on local

:35:05.:35:08.

authorities. That is my argument. One of the dangers in the economy at

:35:09.:35:13.

the moment. Two major pressures, house prices. I suspect there will

:35:14.:35:18.

be nothing that will help build more homes which we desperately need. For

:35:19.:35:23.

instance, I'd like to see an end to the hoarding of land by big

:35:24.:35:28.

developers. It is perfectly easy to legislate on that. Secondly,

:35:29.:35:32.

productivity in this country is falling way behind other countries

:35:33.:35:41.

in Europe. There should be measures in the Queens speech tomorrow to

:35:42.:35:43.

enhance skills. There is a Digital economy Bill, hurrah, well overdue.

:35:44.:35:53.

Let's talk about the EU backdrop, in terms of productivity, for example.

:35:54.:35:58.

As a result of the referendum, everything is on hold. Businesses

:35:59.:36:03.

aren't making decisions. Legislation is being tailored to wait for the

:36:04.:36:08.

referendum. It has been an almighty destruction. If the government had

:36:09.:36:13.

taken Chris's advice and postponed the Queens speech until after the

:36:14.:36:17.

referendum, you would have said everything was on hold. That's not

:36:18.:36:23.

the question. Wouldn't it have been a better idea to have it after the

:36:24.:36:26.

referendum? The government has to get on with running the country and

:36:27.:36:30.

that is why we are having a Queens speech. It is not true to say that

:36:31.:36:36.

everything has been put on hold. Nice try. We are only sitting for 16

:36:37.:36:42.

days in the next six weeks. We should be waiting until after them

:36:43.:36:46.

to have proper Queens speech with a proper programme in it and say that

:36:47.:36:56.

everything is on hold? On the house of lords, Chris Bryant talked about

:36:57.:37:03.

proposals to clip the wings of the House of Lords, is that going to be

:37:04.:37:12.

supported? There is a problem. The House of Lords has a very important

:37:13.:37:19.

constitutional role to scrutinise legislation and send it back to the

:37:20.:37:22.

House of Commons to think again. No one argues with that. But when the

:37:23.:37:27.

House of Lords does it again, again and again. Even when the house has

:37:28.:37:35.

considerable majorities and they have looked again and thought again

:37:36.:37:40.

and they want to do it, the House of Lords is overstepping the mark if it

:37:41.:37:45.

keeps sending things back. On manifesto commitments. If Labour

:37:46.:37:48.

were in government, pushing through a radical programme of reform, being

:37:49.:37:53.

stopped by the House of Lords every five minutes you'd be furious. I

:37:54.:37:59.

respect Michael's position more if he had said this when the Tories had

:38:00.:38:03.

a majority in the House of Lords under a Labour government and

:38:04.:38:06.

smashed our legislation all over the place. We always respected manifesto

:38:07.:38:12.

commitments. What about the commitment to get rid of all

:38:13.:38:20.

hereditary peers? You did get rid of them. There are still 92 of them

:38:21.:38:29.

with by-elections. It's bizarre. One thing that is dangerous is the

:38:30.:38:32.

government using secondary legislation which only gets 90

:38:33.:38:36.

minutes debates if the government allows it and is an amendable to

:38:37.:38:40.

push through enormous changes like working tax credits last year. That

:38:41.:38:44.

is what they are trying to stop the House of Lords doing. I think the

:38:45.:38:48.

House of Lords is within its rights not to let those through. Secondly

:38:49.:38:54.

to say we're never going to allow secondary legislation provisions in

:38:55.:38:57.

primary legislation. I think the government is working in dangerous

:38:58.:39:03.

territory. At the end, the House of Lords needs reform. It should be

:39:04.:39:08.

elected. It is a nonsense. It is unsustainable. There will be as many

:39:09.:39:12.

as the Chinese People's assembly soon. Thank you, Chris Bryant.

:39:13.:39:20.

You may remember that last week the Welsh Assembly failed to choose

:39:21.:39:22.

a new First Minister, after Plaid Cymru, UKIP

:39:23.:39:24.

and the Welsh Conservatives joined forces to block the Labour Leader,

:39:25.:39:27.

So are the parties any nearer to a deal?

:39:28.:39:30.

Let's get the latest from the BBC Wales Political

:39:31.:39:32.

So, tell ours. There have been talks between Labour and Plaid Cymru to

:39:33.:39:42.

break the deadlock. By way of background, this time last week,

:39:43.:39:46.

roughly this time last week, there was a vote to nominate the next

:39:47.:39:51.

First Minister and we expected it to be a formality because Labour are by

:39:52.:39:54.

far the biggest party in the assembly after the assembly

:39:55.:39:59.

election. But what happened was that Plaid Cymru's leader Leanne Wood

:40:00.:40:03.

challenged Carwyn Jones in that vote and she had the support of Ukip and

:40:04.:40:08.

the Conservatives which meant she had the numbers to get to 29 and we

:40:09.:40:12.

were left with a situation where Carwyn Jones the Labour leader and

:40:13.:40:17.

Leanne Wood had 29 votes each and there was stalemate. The back of

:40:18.:40:22.

that, and Plaid Cymru have had talks to break the deadlock. We had a

:40:23.:40:26.

statement last night saying that the talks were over they have gone very

:40:27.:40:31.

well. This morning, they have been putting whatever deal has been

:40:32.:40:37.

agreed to their respected Labour and Plaid Cymru assembly members. The

:40:38.:40:42.

Labour meeting has finished. We have not had any official feedback yet. I

:40:43.:40:46.

met a couple of assembly members who had smiles on their faces saying

:40:47.:40:51.

everything went fine. Whatever was presented to them, they clearly, the

:40:52.:40:56.

ones I've been speaking to, don't have a problem with it. The Plaid

:40:57.:41:00.

Cymru group meeting is still going on so we will have to wait to see

:41:01.:41:06.

what has been put to them before we get an official response. Once we

:41:07.:41:09.

get the response from the two parties, we will get a joint state

:41:10.:41:13.

and and it will be all zest and scale. Is this on the First Minister

:41:14.:41:22.

or an Coalition Government in Wales? -- all systems go. It will not be

:41:23.:41:27.

for a Coalition Government. -- all systems go. It will not be

:41:28.:41:31.

expect the nomination vote will be held again, this time without the

:41:32.:41:35.

expect the nomination vote will be drama, we expect. We expect Carwyn

:41:36.:41:37.

Jones to be officially drama, we expect. We expect Carwyn

:41:38.:41:41.

First Minister. During the rest of the week he will be

:41:42.:41:44.

First Minister. During the rest of cabinet together and by the weekend,

:41:45.:41:50.

administration. These two cabinet together and by the weekend,

:41:51.:41:52.

have been in coalition in the past, this time, it will be a minority

:41:53.:41:57.

Administration. An attempt to get some degree of stability to get

:41:58.:42:02.

budgets and legislation through. The issue of prisoner safety has

:42:03.:42:09.

been looked at in two new major reports -

:42:10.:42:11.

one by the Commons Justice Select Committee, another by the BBC -

:42:12.:42:14.

which found that there is a 20% increase in assaults

:42:15.:42:17.

in the last six six months drugs and weapons being smuggled

:42:18.:42:24.

into jails has more than doubled Some even by drone or thrown over

:42:25.:42:27.

prison walls, as you can The evidence shows the extremes

:42:28.:42:33.

to which inmates are willing to go and authorities seem to be fighting

:42:34.:42:40.

a losing battle over violence We've been joined

:42:41.:42:43.

by Frances Crook from the Howard League for Penal Reform,

:42:44.:42:48.

and of course Michael Howard - former Home Secretary -

:42:49.:42:51.

is still with us. Michael Howard, can I get your

:42:52.:43:02.

reaction to these pictures of drones flying in drugs or mobile phones and

:43:03.:43:07.

packages going over walls. It's horrifying. It's not entirely new.

:43:08.:43:13.

In my day, drugs were thrown over the walls of prisons and I

:43:14.:43:17.

introduced for the first time, drug testing in prison. I was told it

:43:18.:43:23.

couldn't be done, it would lead to riots and the unachievable. We did

:43:24.:43:28.

put in place drug testing and what you describe is an extremely serious

:43:29.:43:33.

situation and has to be dealt with. How would you deal with it? The

:43:34.:43:39.

government has been increasing punishments for illicit items,

:43:40.:43:43.

drugs, phones, any kind of misbehaviour. That's created a kind

:43:44.:43:47.

of battle and make things much worse. They have upped the ante so

:43:48.:43:54.

much. The extra imprisonment that has been given as a punishment has

:43:55.:43:59.

amounted to 2000 years of extra imprisonment for misbehaviour. The

:44:00.:44:06.

extra punishments are making things worse, not solving things. The drugs

:44:07.:44:12.

and phones are a symptom of a real crisis in the prisons. It's

:44:13.:44:16.

different to what it was a quarter of a century ago. Prisons are in

:44:17.:44:20.

such a terrible state. Violence levels are so high. Drug-taking is a

:44:21.:44:26.

symptom. Last week, another 18-year-old handedness of in prison.

:44:27.:44:31.

I attended an inquest with the mother of an 18-year-old son who

:44:32.:44:36.

took his own life, he was known to have mental health problems. There

:44:37.:44:39.

are very serious problems that need addressing. It is a desperate

:44:40.:44:45.

situation that is a result of the wrong sort of ways of running them.

:44:46.:44:51.

It is a desperate situation for a young man to take his life in those

:44:52.:44:56.

situations. Lessons must be learned from that event but we have no

:44:57.:45:01.

reason to suppose, sitting here this morning, that had anything to do

:45:02.:45:05.

with the punishments that are being imposed for people using drugs in

:45:06.:45:12.

prisons. I think, using drugs in prison is wrong. I think you've got

:45:13.:45:16.

to do everything you can to stop that happening and that includes

:45:17.:45:17.

punishing the people who do it. Ask But if there is a policy of zero

:45:18.:45:32.

tolerance and more drugs are getting n the policy is not working? . There

:45:33.:45:36.

is no evidence to suggest that the krachdown of drugs is there with

:45:37.:45:39.

extra violence. Extra violence is aed about thing, you need to take

:45:40.:45:43.

whatever actions you need it take to deal with that. But you also have to

:45:44.:45:47.

take firm action to deal with the abuse of drugs in prison. Surely

:45:48.:45:51.

that is the right way to do it. The public wouldn't accept that

:45:52.:45:53.

prisoners are allowed to get the sort of things that we saw in those

:45:54.:45:57.

pictures into their prisons, and then go unpunished. The drugs are

:45:58.:46:00.

extremely dangerous. We don't want people to take them. Particularly as

:46:01.:46:05.

they are often taking a cocktail of drugs, prescription dru, illegal

:46:06.:46:11.

drugs and legal drugs. It is extremely dangerous (it creates

:46:12.:46:14.

gangs inside prison and adds to the violence. You have to punish them.

:46:15.:46:19.

You have to deal with the problem. If you deal with it in the long way

:46:20.:46:24.

you make it. You inflate the market. If you want to make a lot of money,

:46:25.:46:28.

buy drugs in prisons. You have to deal with the problems, gross

:46:29.:46:31.

overcrowding, inappropriate overuse of prisons. Far too few stwaf,

:46:32.:46:35.

nothing happening all day for people. Young men locked up day

:46:36.:46:40.

after day after day, in a stinking cell with rats and cockroaches, an

:46:41.:46:44.

open toilet they have to defecate into, next to the person sleeping on

:46:45.:46:48.

the bunk next to them. That's a reality. This is' unacceptable. This

:46:49.:46:53.

as a result of a Government that says it'll have a campaign of zero

:46:54.:46:56.

tolerance of prisoners who offend in prison on things like drugs and your

:46:57.:47:00.

claim that prison works, seems to have been dashed by the wayside Not

:47:01.:47:05.

Atul A first of all when I said "prison work requests" what I meant

:47:06.:47:10.

which is incontrovertible, is that you have the professional, repeat

:47:11.:47:14.

serious criminals in prison, they can't continue to commit crimes

:47:15.:47:17.

against the public it is undenighable. They go out and

:47:18.:47:24.

reoffend and come back in again. As prison population increased crime

:47:25.:47:27.

has come down. The conditions that from sows be describes are

:47:28.:47:30.

unacceptable and Michael Gove is putting in place some far-reaching

:47:31.:47:33.

Myers it deal with those conditions. What is he doing to deal with

:47:34.:47:38.

overcrowding? Build new prisons. He has said he will do that. Building

:47:39.:47:43.

new prisons and closing... Let me finish. What has not been

:47:44.:47:46.

established at all, is any link between the conditions which have

:47:47.:47:50.

been described, which are unacceptable and the need it take if

:47:51.:47:54.

you were action against the use and abuse of drugs in prison. How would

:47:55.:47:59.

you, looking at it as an observer, how would people behave if they were

:48:00.:48:04.

in conditions, if Frances Cook is correct you have vermin, and people

:48:05.:48:09.

defecating next to you who. You have no room. Nothing to stimulate your

:48:10.:48:12.

moneyed and nothing to do all day. How do you think they would react?

:48:13.:48:17.

Look, not all prisoners by any means are in those conditions. The

:48:18.:48:22.

majority are. Is that true? That sounds incredible. I'm sure you

:48:23.:48:25.

don't have any evidence for that. I do. 20,000 men are forced to share

:48:26.:48:31.

cells. That is a different matter. No, they are forced to share cells

:48:32.:48:34.

designed for one person. The conditions - the report today on

:48:35.:48:38.

Nottingham, report after report after report, and I visit prisons

:48:39.:48:43.

all the time. But they are all are being punished, not there for

:48:44.:48:49.

holiday. A lot are on remand awaiting trial. Most will not get a

:48:50.:48:52.

prison sentence. Our prison conditions are a stain on the

:48:53.:48:55.

nation, disgraceful. Causing more crime. Putting staff in danger,

:48:56.:49:01.

putting lives at risks. Every four days somebody takes their own life

:49:02.:49:05.

in prison. This is, as Michael Howard says, completely unacceptal.

:49:06.:49:09.

We have to do something about it. I'm pleased that Michael Gove is

:49:10.:49:14.

talking positively about the treasure within everyone. We need it

:49:15.:49:20.

talking positively about the However, we need urgent action not

:49:21.:49:24.

postponed. Michael Howard, this idea of having a Leaking table of

:49:25.:49:27.

prisons, to have successful conditions, prisons that aren't in

:49:28.:49:31.

the condition that Frances Cook describes taking over other prisons

:49:32.:49:34.

or acting as a guide, do you support that? It seems a reasonable y.d I

:49:35.:49:38.

support every effort made to improve the rehabilitation of people in

:49:39.:49:41.

prison. It is a very difficult thing to do. Many ways have been tried to

:49:42.:49:46.

do it. That's true, we agree on that. None have

:49:47.:49:49.

do it. That's true, we agree on should certainly keep trying but we

:49:50.:49:52.

also have it punish people when they do wrong, we have to be firm this

:49:53.:49:57.

they abecause drugs in prison and we have to take action, I quite agree,

:49:58.:50:00.

to reduce overcrowding. Frances Cook thank you very

:50:01.:50:03.

There was probably more chance of a stage musical

:50:04.:50:05.

of Screaming Lord Sutch being made than one on the life

:50:06.:50:07.

of Jeremy Corbyn but then real life being more absurd than fiction

:50:08.:50:13.

Transferring to the West End, the show about David Sutch's life

:50:14.:50:18.

We'll talk to playwright in a moment.

:50:19.:50:30.

NEWS REEL: The youngest contender of the five

:50:31.:50:32.

the National Teenage candidate, is a 22-year-old pop

:50:33.:50:33.

singer, who's latest disk is called Jack the Ripper.

:50:34.:50:36.

The funny thing - and he was funny - about David Sutch -

:50:37.:50:39.

was that for a man who became a Monster Raving Loony,

:50:40.:50:41.

In 1966 he stood for the National Teenage Party in

:50:42.:50:45.

For David Edward Sutch, 585 votes....

:50:46.:50:55.

Promoting a lowering of the voting age from 21.

:50:56.:50:59.

He wasn't just a novelty politician, though, but a '60s' wild

:51:00.:51:02.

man on the music scene, he played alongside Keith Moon.

:51:03.:51:04.

This is a rehearsal scene from a romp of a play

:51:05.:51:12.

He might have stayed with music were it

:51:13.:51:19.

at in America during a mugging and he came back in the 1980s

:51:20.:51:25.

The Monster Raving Loony Party, an attempt to prick political

:51:26.:51:31.

pomposity and have a laugh, which in the infamously

:51:32.:51:35.

heated South Bermondsey by-election of that year,

:51:36.:51:36.

COMMENTATOR: Official Monster Raving Loony Party.

:51:37.:51:42.

Though, over time, not everyone saw the joke.

:51:43.:51:49.

People like you, you are ruining this country, you.

:51:50.:51:51.

Loonies contested by-elections and general elections,

:51:52.:51:57.

often standing side-by-side with Prime Ministers and by 1997,

:51:58.:52:00.

Lord Sutch was included in a novelty range of leaders chocolate heads.

:52:01.:52:12.

But the party's ledgendary moment was in the first Bootle by-election

:52:13.:52:15.

of 1990, where the Loonies upset an otherwise rather mundane

:52:16.:52:17.

The other fragments of the shattered Alliance -

:52:18.:52:20.

The Liberal at least avoiding the indignity suffered

:52:21.:52:34.

suffered by the SDP, who were beaten by The Monster

:52:35.:52:37.

Lord Sutch immediately offered an electoral back to the SBP.

:52:38.:52:42.

David Sutch's suicide in 1998 did not mean Loonydom ended.

:52:43.:52:48.

funny is that Loonydom's legacy includes absurd policies that

:52:49.:52:50.

Legalisation of commercial radio, and the abolition

:52:51.:53:03.

That things that were once considered utterly

:53:04.:53:06.

is probably the best tribute to the Loonies and satirises

:53:07.:53:11.

genuine policies that might actually be crazy,

:53:12.:53:15.

but then in British politics, such is life.

:53:16.:53:23.

The first Cabinet reshovele. Come on, shuffle along a bit.

:53:24.:53:30.

That is a novel take on a Cabinet reshuffle. I do that at home quite a

:53:31.:53:33.

lot. And the political playwright

:53:34.:53:34.

James Graham is here, as is the current leader

:53:35.:53:37.

of the Monster Raving Loony Party, James, where Creaming Lord such and

:53:38.:53:49.

The Monster Raving Loony Party? It makes sense to mee, unlike other

:53:50.:53:55.

party leaders, politicians have a shelf life, they represent a kind of

:53:56.:53:59.

constance through modern British political history. I think the first

:54:00.:54:07.

election that Screaming Lord Sutch stood for was 1953 and here they are

:54:08.:54:12.

standing today so as at slightly comic but also important look at how

:54:13.:54:17.

politics and democracy has changed I thought it was important. You have

:54:18.:54:22.

been there since the 50s. What do you make of it? I isn't seen it.

:54:23.:54:29.

Wonderful. I expect Screaming Lord Sutch is smiling down now. What

:54:30.:54:39.

about the comedic side. They do provide great comedy for you to

:54:40.:54:43.

right with, the characters. Yes but people can disagree on the

:54:44.:54:47.

candidates now, that are imstating what Alan does and single oar u

:54:48.:54:51.

candidates aren't always particularly serious but they

:54:52.:54:54.

represent something moving, the mrinder that politics is not about

:54:55.:54:57.

anyone having a investigate but also that anyone can stand. And if

:54:58.:55:04.

Screaming Lord Sutch can stand and Howling Laud Hope can stand, then

:55:05.:55:09.

anyone can, respectfully. Do you think party has changed, not you,

:55:10.:55:14.

but the party? Noe what it is trying to do? Note really. We are still

:55:15.:55:20.

there, doing what we do. Say we are still there, I am, we are actually

:55:21.:55:24.

doing the Tooting by-election on June 16th. Are you? Which in actual

:55:25.:55:30.

fact, June 16th is the exact day we started the party in 198 #. So a bit

:55:31.:55:36.

of nostalga there for you. It is also my birth Dane the day that

:55:37.:55:39.

Screaming Lord Sutch was no longer with us. -- my birthday. What about

:55:40.:55:44.

the proposals from your party that have become law? I mean I have

:55:45.:55:48.

always been inkreeged by the fact that quite a few have become law.

:55:49.:55:52.

Anything else now on the table Yes, we are still want a 99 p coin.

:55:53.:56:00.

And our position on the EU is that maybe we should come out and be like

:56:01.:56:07.

humpty dumpty and put ourselves together in. In out, in out. Shake

:56:08.:56:11.

it all about. They are on your side at the moment.

:56:12.:56:14.

All support welcome. I'm sure it is at this stage. Have you had any

:56:15.:56:19.

run-ins with the Monster Raving Loony Party? As far as I recall, I

:56:20.:56:25.

always had an excellent relationship with the party. Didn't a former

:56:26.:56:30.

member stand against you in 2005? Yes, it was all right. Did you get

:56:31.:56:36.

to know him? A bit. It wasn't a problem but you shared a platform at

:56:37.:56:41.

the time. We Z In terms ever of your writing, are you influenced by what

:56:42.:56:45.

is going on in the current climate or have you been planning this for

:56:46.:56:49.

ages? I have been planning it but you are listening. I sometimes think

:56:50.:56:53.

it is not original Shakespeare, but if you want it comment on what is

:56:54.:56:57.

happening now, it is useful to look back at the past equivalent. I did a

:56:58.:57:01.

play This House in the 1970s... Which was great I thought it was a

:57:02.:57:06.

helpful way to look at what coalition politics is like today and

:57:07.:57:09.

equally, there are party fractions all across Westminster at the moment

:57:10.:57:13.

and I think looking at that through monster raving loonies is quite fun.

:57:14.:57:18.

You mentioned the Welsh Assembly early on, last Thursday. We got

:57:19.:57:29.

5,742 votes. Is that a record? Yes. 5,742 people 234 Wales wanted us to

:57:30.:57:32.

represent them in their party. The loony party they are voting for. Do

:57:33.:57:36.

you think this play will kick-start more of a revival? Of course it

:57:37.:57:40.

will. Where can we see the play? Opening tonight at the Soho Theatre.

:57:41.:57:45.

We have been previewing, but we open tonight and run through to June

:57:46.:57:51.

18th. There will be at least 20 Loonies there. Are you going

:57:52.:57:52.

tonight? Not tonight. On 28th. There's just time before we go

:57:53.:57:57.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was -

:57:58.:58:01.

what has GCHQ done to try B) Enter Robert Hannigan, the

:58:02.:58:03.

Director of GCHQ, as a contestent as their new Director

:58:04.:58:09.

of Communications? So Michael what's

:58:10.:58:15.

the correct answer? They have opened a Twitter account.

:58:16.:58:24.

You are right. Reading all those, it wasn't the most difficult. What do

:58:25.:58:28.

you think about that? Of them opening themselves up Why in the I

:58:29.:58:33.

thought it was supposed to be secret I think they have said they are not

:58:34.:58:35.

going to disclose everything. I think they have said they are not

:58:36.:58:38.

wonder what they are going to say. It makes you wonder. Thank you for

:58:39.:58:40.

being on the programme today. Instead there'll be live coverage

:58:41.:58:45.

of the Queen's Speech But Andrew and I will be back

:58:46.:58:48.

here on BBC Two on Thursday You look lovely, Mum.

:58:49.:58:53.

Go on, do a twirl.

:58:54.:59:04.

Michael Howard joins Jo Coburn for the latest political news, interviews and debate, including a look ahead at what might be in the Queen's Speech and an examination of Michael Gove's proposals to reform the prison system. Also on the programme, playwright James Graham discusses his new play about the Monster Raving Loony Party and current Loony Party leader Howling Laud Hope gives his thoughts.


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