19/05/2016 Daily Politics


19/05/2016

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by cabinet minister Chris Grayling and TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady to discuss the latest developments at Westminster.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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There are more than 400,000 more people in work than a year ago -

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but are most of those new jobs going to immigrants?

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but will the raft of bills she announced do anything

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to distract from the referendum debate raging in the Conservative

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An Egyptair airliner with more than 60 people on board -

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including one Briton - goes missing en route

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from Paris to Cairo - we'll bring you the latest.

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And what happens when MPs try their hand at stand-up comedy?

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Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, in the medical context, PR does not stand

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for public relations. But is shorthand for the top of examination

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that involves putting on rubber gloves, applying gel and asking a

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man to cough! All that in the next hour

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and with us for the duration today - our own comic genius -

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the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress -

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or TUC - Frances O'Grady. First this morning -

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more than half of the new jobs created in the UK in last years went

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to non-UK nationals from the EU - that's according to figures released

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yeasterday by the Office The ONS said that 409,000 more

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people are in work than a year ago The number of non-UK nationals

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from the EU working in the UK increased by 224,000

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to 2.15 million. So EU migrants made up

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55% of the increase The figures have been seized

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upon by those campaigning for us Former work and Pension Secretary,

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Iain Duncan Smith, said "the truth is that it

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is Brits on low pay - and those out of work -

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who feel the consequences of Let's just look at some of these

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figures a little bit. One in six jobs in the UK, 5.2 million out of a

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total workforce of jobs in the UK, 5.2 million out of a

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now held by people who were born abroad. Does that have no effect on

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wages or the prospect? Not according to the London School of economics

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report was published, which showed there wasn't any harm, but of course

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people worry about wages. But I think is the real threat to

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immigration, * of a Brexit. That may immigration, * of a Brexit. That may

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these figures to get the TUC immigration, * of a Brexit. That may

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created in the past year, but 80% of them want to people born outside the

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on wages or

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on need to be really

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on workers aren't the

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on they are the victims of low pay, and

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on if we going to cause the causes of

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low pay, we need to get tough on business greed, make sure people

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have a proper living wage, that under 25-year-olds aren't excluded

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from the higher minimum wage, that's the kind of action we need to take

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and we need strong trade unions in areas like construction. Quite a few

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and we need strong trade unions in unions are... I haven't got the

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figure for you. You looked at unions are... I haven't got the

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general counsel, you will see generations... I mean the ones who

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have generations... I mean the ones who

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years, they are not rushing to join unions. A lot of migrant workers are

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in the areas of the economy where we find it hard to organise because

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they are zero hours, high turnover, those are the root of the problems.

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Let me get to the root of this, there are 2.2 million EU citizens

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working in the UK. It has doubled in five years, it used to be just over

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a million. Are you arguing that that huge increase in labour coming to

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this country has had no effect on wages? I don't think there is any

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evidence to show it has, but what I would say is that there are areas in

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food companies, food manufacturing Company 's, construction site, hotel

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and catering, where some bad employers have deliberately gone

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over to Eastern Europe, hired labour on agency contracts and used them to

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undercut pay. We know that has happened. So there are 1.7 million

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people in this country looking for work but unable to find it. And you

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telling me that arise in 1 million more EU citizens coming here to work

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has no effect on their ability, the 1.7 million, to find work? What I'm

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telling you is the real issue here is how to rein in those bad

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employers who use workers from overseas to undercut local workers,

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and undermined union agreements. People have been calling that the

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years, I am trying to work out how given that we have just under 2

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million people still looking for work, unable to find it, and over 1

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million from the EE you alone, put aside those coming in from outside

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the U, which is flat lined in recent years will stop that huge influx of

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labour, unprecedented in our history in terms of size, has no effect on

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those in this country, on low pay, or without a job? The real effect is

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whether or not we get tough on greedy employers, whether reinvest

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in our infrastructure so we create decent, well-paid jobs. But that's a

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generalised thing. Because these numbers are huge. Let's take those

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who have been doing low paid jobs. Romanians and Bulgarians have been

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allowed to come here since 2014, unimpeded, that's when they became

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full members of the free movement of labour. How many have come in since

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then? A quarter of a million Romanians and Bulgarians now working

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in this country. I think we can agree that most of them are doing

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low paid work. Absolutely. Does that have no effect on the pressing the

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wages of those of our citizens already on low pay? Only if you let

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employers get away with it and politicians don't need let employers

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get away with it. But even the last Labour government took almost nobody

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to court for not paying the minimum wage, thinks there were about ten

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convictions. And this government has introduced employment tribunal fees.

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The latest figures aren't actually coming from Poland and Eastern

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Europe or even so much from Romania and Bulgarians, they're coming from

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what you might call the old E 15, France, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and

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they might not be doing quite as low-wage work as some of the ones we

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have been talking about. 250,000 in the last year, that has no effect on

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our labour market? In itself that isn't the issue. I think what we

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have to do is, why have we got 6 million workers in Britain earning

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less than the living wage? Why haven't we got a decent industrial

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strategy? If we keep on bringing labour in in this quantity, it'll be

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a long while, you know enough about economics to know that if you

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massively increase the supply of something as we have done in recent

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years, the price falls. It does if you allow employers to get away with

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it. It's not the case in every country that immigration drags down

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wages, in fact the London School of economic support suggested it was in

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the case here either. But where has mass immigration not put down wages?

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In European countries, where do have strong collective-bargaining

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coverage, where... What is the average rate of unemployment in the

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Eurozone? It is 10%! Here is the basic economic. If you remove the

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incentive from employers to use immigrant labour is cheap labour,

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they stop sending people... No one has stricter labour laws than

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France, they have the kind of label as you would like in the TUC. It is

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almost impossible to hire and fire somebody. I think they are under

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pressure. And you know why, because 25% of young French people are

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unemployed and French wages have barely moved in real terms for years

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and yet they have had, like us, a huge increase in immigration. There

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isn't a shred of international evidence to suggest that by making

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workers weaker, you improve employment opportunities. Why are

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25% of young French/ unemployed? I know that French unions tell me that

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as in this country, people feel the balance of power has gone too far in

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favour of employers, and the rule solution is putting some power back

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in the hands of working people. If everything you say is right, if this

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huge rise in workers coming from elsewhere has had no effect on

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wages, why wages only rising by 2%? We're still suffering from the

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crash, the bankers crash, and the failure it was seven years ago. I

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know! What has happened since in terms of getting to grips with...

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But if this huge increase in labour has had no impact on the price of

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labour, rye, eight years after the crash, on wages rising by 2% all

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less? But it was the crash that really damaged wages and don't

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forget, inequality was rising long before we had the crash. You can't

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be happy they only rising by 2%? I am certainly not. If we don't get

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back the demand in the economy, we won't get the economy moving. We

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need money in people's pay packets to buy goods and services.

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And if you want more analysis of these employment figures -

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and what they tell us about migration, you can go

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The question for today is who is the most powerful person

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in Doncaster - well, according to the Doncaster

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At the end of the show will, we give you the correct answer. What is One

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Direction? Is that the street? There was lots of pomp

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and circumstance - and plenty of bills were announced

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but we had heard about most of what the Queen

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said yesterday before - and by the end of the day

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Conservative MPs were talking about its implications

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for the EU referendum. There were 21 Bills in Her Majesty's

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65th speech to Parliament. prisoners home on weekdays only

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using electronic satellite-tagging Extremism was also

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on the government's agenda, with a new civil order regime

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to restrict extremist activity in England and Wales

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and new powers of intervention to tackle radicalisation of children

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in "unregulated education settings". And the Conservative plans

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for a UK Bill of Rights before final proposals

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are brought forward. But if the Government hoped

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yesterday's Queen's speech would bring some respite from rows

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about the EU referendum, as critics were quick to point out

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that there was no sign And we're joined now

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by the Leader of the House Let's start with prisons, something

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you know something about in your previous role. Is allowing prisoners

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to live at home joined the wickets of Justice? Depends on the second

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stance. Where you have people who have been convicted of a sentence

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early on, who might get a community sentence otherwise, it is important,

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we know the link between offending and implement is massive, so if in

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some situations the court judge that an individual is better off being

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left to work during the week but to lose the liberty of times when they

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wouldn't be at work, it's a different approach and could make a

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difference. Different to the approach you had when you were

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running prisons? I pursued a strategy of providing better support

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for people through the gate on the left prison. Give me some examples

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of how you did that. He said, life must be made harder for criminals.

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Is this what you had in mind? What I did was a continuation of what I

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started in 2010. Buy into the situation where 50,000 prisoners a

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year were walking out after short sentences with no guidance, support,

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nothing, never get proper planning for release and support for 12

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months after. One of the things I did was double the might of

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education that young offenders get. You try to ban books coming into

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prisons. That's a myth. That never happened. Now, where trying to do

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more in adult prisons with people with no qualifications, mental

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health problems. He is continuing a process with good, innovative ideas

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about how we stop enormous levels of reoffending. Nearly 60% of

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short-term prisoners and 50% of all prisoners reoffend within a year.

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Who's fault is that? Some jails are not fit for purpose, Michael Gove

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says, that must have happened on your watch. What I did was build new

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prison wings, started the construction of a major new prison

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which Michael is going to continue with. It is turning around Victorian

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prisons some of which don't have space to build a workshop. Why are

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they overcrowded and dangerous? Let's be clear, the prison

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population is almost the same as it was in 2010. The number of places in

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the system is almost exactly the same in 2010. Identix the premise

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that the prison system is massively more overcrowded than it was in the

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past. Why did Michael Gove say they are not fit for purpose? We have

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seen footage inside some prisons where prisoners are running a mock.

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Some of our prisons are well out of date, built in Victorian times. It

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is not a question of overcrowding but out of date facilities. I built

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a big new prison in Wrexham, we are building new wings in prisons.

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Michael is moving ahead with nine new prisons. It is about bringing in

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modern facilities that are fit for purpose so we send people back onto

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the streets in better shape. Some other elements of the Queen 's

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speech. The Bill of Rights. Will there be legislation in this

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Parliament or is this going to be a consultation? Yermak row I'm

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expected -- I'm expecting legislation to come forward in the

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not too distant future. We have been told it will be a consultation. That

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usually means another few years down the line before any issue in terms

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of legislation is discussed. When you think the legislation will come

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forward? In the not too distant future, after the period of

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consultation. We're going to bring forward detailed proposals. We will

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discuss them. Then we'll move on. You're going to scrap the Human

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Rights Act brought in by Labour and leave the European Convention on

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Human Rights? It's about rebalancing the relationship between our courts

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and European courts. There is a number of ways you can strengthen

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the powers of our courts. Wait for the consultation document to see

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that. I'm intrigued. You can't change the supremacy of European

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courts unless the UK leaves the European Convention on Human Rights.

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Is that going to be proposed? We will have to wait and see. I am not

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going to announce that today. We have set out plans to change the

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balance between our courts and to change the nature of human rights

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laws in this country to make our courts stronger. You will have to

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wait for the detail. It would make our courts supreme over European

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courts? It is to make our courts more superior over. The crucial word

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is supreme? Are you going to make courts supreme? Millar you will have

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to wait for the detail. I am not going to announce them today. It is

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not a detail. It is fundamental. I will leave it for Michael when he

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announces the consultation package. Can I check something quite

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important. The European Court of Human Rights is written into the

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Scottish devolution settlement, it is part of devolution. You cannot

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change that. You cannot come out of it without the permission of the

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Scottish parliament, which I think you know as well as I, you won't

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get. You are just going up a cul-de-sac. What's written into the

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devolution settlement is the wording of the convention. That's what I

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just said. We have never said that we want to move away. The issue is,

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over a lengthy period of time, courts have moved away from where we

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believe human rights laws should be. Moved away from the spirit of that

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convention. We seek to address that. We will pick over that with a fine

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tooth comb. Were you disappointed that the sovereignty bill was not in

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the Queens speech? It has to wait until after the referendum. I hope

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it won't arise. I am campaigning to leave and if we do leave, the

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question doesn't arise. The question of the referendum has basically

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dominated. It was amazing how little was covered in the Queens speech in

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terms of its dominance in terms of the referendum. You say that but we

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are putting in place the remainder of our manifesto. We have delivered

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almost all of the manifesto. We are creating life chances for people in

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deprived backgrounds. There is a very strong and broad ranging

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package. There was no sovereignty bill. You hope it won't arise.

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People want to focus on higher education, skills, terrorism. We

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have just passed a bill on immigration in the last few weeks.

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It has been through the Lords and passed into law. What about

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homelessness? That Bill wasn't there. We have just had a Housing

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act passed into law in the last couple of weeks. All of this has

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been a shout show to couple of weeks. All of this has

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referendum. I don't think so. For example, the Digital economy,

:22:17.:22:19.

referendum. I don't think so. For strengthening is a crucial part of

:22:20.:22:20.

our economic future. That's in strengthening is a crucial part of

:22:21.:22:24.

there. Measures to deal with adoption and care, really important.

:22:25.:22:31.

Will be there once the referendum is over? Of course.

:22:32.:22:37.

Will be there once the referendum is for government for the next 12

:22:38.:22:39.

Will be there once the referendum is months. Of course it will carry on.

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We will be negotiating to leave the European Union at the same time, I

:22:44.:22:47.

hope. It is necessary to progress with a domestic programme that will

:22:48.:22:50.

benefit with a domestic programme that will

:22:51.:22:57.

European Union. Will you still be in the Cabinet after the European union

:22:58.:22:59.

if we vote to remain? the Cabinet after the European union

:23:00.:23:01.

They always say that the Cabinet after the European union

:23:02.:23:11.

it happens to be true. Can't we be honest about the sovereignty bill.

:23:12.:23:16.

It was to buy off Boris Johnson and he has ratted on you so there will

:23:17.:23:28.

no be no sovereignty bill. On one thing I agree, I hope there won't be

:23:29.:23:32.

a sovereignty bill because I hope we will be leaving

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Now, the Shadow Home Secretary and former

:23:40.:23:40.

Labour Leadership Candidate Andy Burnham has announced his bid

:23:41.:23:42.

to become Labour's candidate for Mayor of Greater Manchester.

:23:43.:23:45.

Here he his launching his campaign at a speech

:23:46.:23:47.

Our own party, you've heard me say this before, has been too

:23:48.:23:51.

London-centric down the years and, consequently, we've left a situation

:23:52.:23:53.

people out there, haven't felt that we are responding properly

:23:54.:23:56.

What I want to do, in launching this campaign today,

:23:57.:24:01.

is develop a distinctive brand of Northern Labour.

:24:02.:24:07.

Give Labour a stronger Northern voice that speaks

:24:08.:24:11.

to the people out there and I think that's what

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And Andy Burnham joins us now from Salford.

:24:15.:24:25.

Welcome to the programme. Why are you abandoning Westminster? Because

:24:26.:24:35.

I think I can do more to change this place, greater Manchester, and

:24:36.:24:41.

indeed politics in this country by making the statement. Westminster,

:24:42.:24:46.

over the centuries, has left us with an unequal country. I would go as

:24:47.:24:50.

far as saying, it has failed the north of England. We have a very

:24:51.:24:56.

uneven distribution of resources, life chances and power. I don't see

:24:57.:25:02.

that Westminster is going to change that. There is an opportunity to

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rebalance the country by making this decision I think I'm sending a

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statement that this country needs to change and we need to rebalance it,

:25:12.:25:15.

south to north. That's at the heart of my campaign. You don't even think

:25:16.:25:20.

a Labour government would do that rebalancing? It did. I'm here in

:25:21.:25:27.

Salford, media city is just over the way. We did many things to change

:25:28.:25:34.

the media power of the country. I remember, many in the BBC weren't

:25:35.:25:39.

keen but we were right to do it. To try and rebalance the way that the

:25:40.:25:42.

country worked and bring different voices onto the airwaves. There is

:25:43.:25:50.

only so much you can do. The inequalities in England are very

:25:51.:25:53.

deeply entrenched. That's why am saying that we need a campaign for

:25:54.:25:58.

an equal England. It is an balanced between north and south and we've

:25:59.:26:02.

known that for many years. Now, there really needs to be a moment of

:26:03.:26:07.

change. You don't have much confidence in Labour's ability to

:26:08.:26:11.

win the next election because you said the party did things to change

:26:12.:26:14.

the balance but you don't believe they're going to be in power in 2020

:26:15.:26:18.

and you have decided to leave Westminster and go your own way. I

:26:19.:26:26.

don't see it at all, how you can claim that, the point I make today

:26:27.:26:31.

is that Labour needs to revitalise in the North of England. We need a

:26:32.:26:35.

distinctive Northern voice if we are to connect with voters here. There

:26:36.:26:39.

is a worry that we are losing our group with some voters here. They

:26:40.:26:44.

feel that we are to London centric. You've heard me say that many times

:26:45.:26:48.

over the years on your programme. In my view, I can do more to help the

:26:49.:26:55.

party by making this statement, by working now to revitalise Labour in

:26:56.:27:00.

the north. I think that can do more to build towards 2020 election

:27:01.:27:08.

victory. Jeremy Corbyn have spoken about this in much detail. I gave

:27:09.:27:14.

him a commitment to work with him to build the Labour Party coming out of

:27:15.:27:18.

the last election. I have been doing that in the Shadow Cabinet but we

:27:19.:27:22.

have agreed that I can move into this role to continue this process

:27:23.:27:25.

of rebuilding and strengthening labour in all parts of the country.

:27:26.:27:32.

That is how we will win in 2020. Jeremy Corbyn, from a London

:27:33.:27:36.

constituency, is he to London centric and as a result his Labour

:27:37.:27:43.

Party? I don't personalise it. The party has been to London centric

:27:44.:27:48.

over many years. It goes back a long time. It doesn't help that Jeremy

:27:49.:27:53.

Corbyn is seen as a London metropolitan elite. It wouldn't help

:27:54.:27:58.

persuade the people you want? I don't think that is right. If you

:27:59.:28:04.

look in our big cities, the big cities really rallied around Jeremy

:28:05.:28:07.

Corbyn in the leadership election and he won well in the North as well

:28:08.:28:13.

as in the south. He has got a very big mandate and people want a

:28:14.:28:17.

different kind of politics. He was absolutely right about that. I want

:28:18.:28:23.

to work with him to build that. Is he right on immigration when he says

:28:24.:28:28.

that we should have more migrants and refugees coming? I have said

:28:29.:28:33.

over many years that immigration is overall a good thing. That is the

:28:34.:28:37.

argument that Jeremy makes. I make this point, from a Northern 's

:28:38.:28:41.

perspective, what we hear on the airwaves on programme's like yours

:28:42.:28:47.

is the London take on immigration, that it is a purely good thing about

:28:48.:28:52.

driving the economy. That has left people in the North feeling that

:28:53.:28:55.

politicians aren't speaking to them. In the former industrial

:28:56.:29:01.

communities, there are pressures on public services, undercutting of

:29:02.:29:05.

wages, and the failure of the Labour Party to address those issues about

:29:06.:29:10.

a decade ago has given us a feeling that we are out of touch in parts of

:29:11.:29:15.

the North. I want to change that and corrected. That is part of why I am

:29:16.:29:22.

making this move. Is Jeremy Corbyn addressing that issue in the right

:29:23.:29:25.

way for northern constituencies like yours? I thought it was absolutely

:29:26.:29:34.

brilliant, I think, a fortnight ago when he challenged David Cameron in

:29:35.:29:39.

the House of Commons to support a European proposal to stop the

:29:40.:29:42.

undercutting of skilled wages. It was his first question at PMQ 's

:29:43.:29:48.

couple of weeks ago. Cameron squirmed and wouldn't tell us

:29:49.:29:53.

whether his MEPs would back it. Absolutely, Jeremy Corbyn was

:29:54.:29:56.

raising the right issue and it's an issue that Labour needs to talk

:29:57.:30:01.

about more. Labour movement can be a good thing but don't let it undercut

:30:02.:30:06.

the wages of skilled workers across the North of England. It was

:30:07.:30:09.

brilliant that he took that issue directly to the Prime Minister. Andy

:30:10.:30:14.

Vernon, good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

:30:15.:30:23.

The lesson of London is, if you want to win, have a top-class candidate

:30:24.:30:29.

and if you lose, you have a dirty campaign. So the better the

:30:30.:30:33.

candidates, the Queen of the fight... I think Andy is great and

:30:34.:30:39.

no doubt there will be other great candidates as well. I think it's an

:30:40.:30:53.

opportunity and Boris Johnson, and now Andy Burnham, there could be

:30:54.:31:02.

elected mayors of our major cities, we go more like the Americans, the

:31:03.:31:06.

French or Italian roots, they then become springboards, into national

:31:07.:31:12.

politics. The Prime Minister of Italy was my of Florence before and

:31:13.:31:16.

Boris Johnson is now going international politics, big-time

:31:17.:31:21.

bust up -- mayor of Florence. It gives them experience as well. It's

:31:22.:31:25.

no bad thing in terms of the calibre of our political leadership,

:31:26.:31:29.

regardless of party, for people of our political leadership,

:31:30.:31:33.

have that executive responsibility and some big ambition in terms

:31:34.:31:39.

have that executive responsibility their party. Because they are

:31:40.:31:40.

directly elected. Most of us living in the UK

:31:41.:31:45.

are willing to open which ranks

:31:46.:31:50.

27 countries based on people's readiness to let refugees

:31:51.:31:56.

live in their countries, towns, neighbourhoods and homes,

:31:57.:31:59.

in a so-called China tops the list of 27

:32:00.:32:06.

countries in the survey, followed by Germany,

:32:07.:32:10.

and then the UK. And coming in

:32:11.:32:12.

at the bottom - it's Russia. Around the world,

:32:13.:32:15.

10% of people would let But that figures rises

:32:16.:32:23.

to 29% here in the UK. 47% of people in this country

:32:24.:32:28.

would welcome refugees And a big majority of

:32:29.:32:34.

people in Britain, 87%, say refugees should be allowed

:32:35.:32:40.

into the country. Meanwhile,

:32:41.:32:43.

66% of people around the world think their governments

:32:44.:32:45.

should do more help those fleeing We're just trying to make connection

:32:46.:33:08.

there with him. Let me come to you first, Kate, were you surprised that

:33:09.:33:11.

we came third? I wasn't surprised by the results at all, we decided to do

:33:12.:33:17.

this poll because we kept being told by governments around the world that

:33:18.:33:23.

people don't want to give support and a refuge to people fleeing war

:33:24.:33:27.

and persecution, and that's not what we see, it's not what we see in this

:33:28.:33:32.

country and not what we see in many parts of the world. So we thought,

:33:33.:33:36.

let's do a poll, let's test this, let's see what comes from the pole.

:33:37.:33:43.

What we get there is 20 out of 27 countries where over 75 people say

:33:44.:33:50.

that refugees, people fleeing war and persecution, should get support

:33:51.:33:56.

-- over 75% of people. I think it's interesting that China came first,

:33:57.:34:01.

people were answering that question in a country with little experience

:34:02.:34:05.

of refugees but answering it from the heart. Have taken very few

:34:06.:34:14.

refugees in recent years? Yes, but this country that came second is

:34:15.:34:19.

Germany, which has taken in a lot. What you're getting is a response

:34:20.:34:23.

from the heart in terms of China, people have little experience of it

:34:24.:34:28.

but saying all the more cynical interpretation would be taken say

:34:29.:34:31.

yes because they know the government would never allow it. We're talking

:34:32.:34:37.

to ordinary people through a polling company. People are very careful

:34:38.:34:42.

what they say in a country like Germany. The Dilma Rousseff --

:34:43.:34:52.

China. How do we know whether to believe them or not, when they said

:34:53.:34:55.

they would accept refugees in their home? It is a poll, they are

:34:56.:35:01.

answering what the poster has asked them. What we see at Amnesty, people

:35:02.:35:07.

campaigning with the local councils, asking them to take refugees,

:35:08.:35:12.

particularly keen and angry about this government's policy in terms of

:35:13.:35:17.

refugees from Syria, where we have taken 1300. 1300 in a crisis of 5

:35:18.:35:26.

million across the world. Last year this country took in about 20,000

:35:27.:35:30.

refugees, it's not right to say it's 1000... It's a lot less than Sweden,

:35:31.:35:38.

per capita, Gregg Gillis, and a lot less than Germany. -- a great deal

:35:39.:35:46.

less. I was talking about people from Syria where the government has

:35:47.:35:51.

announced a programme... From the camps, not the people already in

:35:52.:35:56.

Europe. The numbers here in the UK are very, very small. It is Sweden

:35:57.:36:01.

and Germany in Europe who are taking something like 50% of refugees

:36:02.:36:07.

across Europe. So our country is doing very well, actually, in

:36:08.:36:12.

providing resources and providing support for people in the region,

:36:13.:36:16.

it's not doing well in terms of the people here who needs help. What we

:36:17.:36:22.

are saying is that all countries who could afford it should provide

:36:23.:36:26.

support for people from the region and also ticking people... Some of

:36:27.:36:33.

the most vulnerable. And what we need is a global response, so the UN

:36:34.:36:36.

is meeting next week and again in September... Can't even get a

:36:37.:36:43.

European response! So how could you ever hope to get a global response,

:36:44.:36:49.

when even the EU has not managed to come up with a concerted United

:36:50.:36:55.

response? I know, and it is appalling that the EU has left

:36:56.:36:58.

Germany and Sweden and others to do the things that they have done and

:36:59.:37:02.

nobody has joined in, but it doesn't mean we should stop demanding... It

:37:03.:37:08.

is the biggest refugee crisis since the end of the Second World War.

:37:09.:37:12.

What was the size of the sample in the UK? 1000. The only reason I ask

:37:13.:37:20.

is it is different from the private polling of the political parties,

:37:21.:37:24.

especially on the conservative side. One of the reason I believe the

:37:25.:37:28.

government has taken a hard line is that polling shows it wouldn't be

:37:29.:37:33.

popular. But look at public opinion, that has made the government changes

:37:34.:37:37.

mind on taking people from Syria, public opinion that said we should

:37:38.:37:41.

take children when the government was trying to say that defeated,

:37:42.:37:49.

again and again, our government, our politicians underestimate people in

:37:50.:37:53.

this country. Some of the private polling I've been told is very

:37:54.:37:58.

different from your poll but we will never know the difference is, let me

:37:59.:38:02.

bring in Stephen, migration spokesman for Ukip who has been

:38:03.:38:05.

listening to most of this. This polling would suggest that we are

:38:06.:38:10.

rather generous country, that we realise our obligations to refugees

:38:11.:38:14.

and we should take more in. What you say? I think the polling is right to

:38:15.:38:20.

suggest that people in Britain have always been welcoming the genuine

:38:21.:38:24.

refugees, we have accepted those in the past, and we are kind and

:38:25.:38:29.

generous nation. I am not so sure that a poll of 1000 people, I

:38:30.:38:36.

haven't seen exactly what type of people they were, what class of

:38:37.:38:40.

individuals... We assume it is a reasonably robust potent it has 1000

:38:41.:38:45.

people by a reputable polling company, with no polls often don't

:38:46.:38:49.

get it right but it must give a fair snapshot of opinion. It would

:38:50.:38:56.

suggest that if the government lived up to the humanity and the record of

:38:57.:38:59.

the British people, it would be prepared to take more refugees, not

:39:00.:39:07.

talking about migrants, more refugees. What would be wrong with

:39:08.:39:13.

that? Again I emphasise, even if you look at Ukip's policies in the past,

:39:14.:39:18.

we said we had to have our responsibilities to the UN

:39:19.:39:20.

agreements we have signed but this year I think we will accept 38,000

:39:21.:39:25.

genuine asylum seekers into this country and I think we spent, with

:39:26.:39:30.

the government, over a billion helping out those in Lebanon decided

:39:31.:39:34.

to take in 38,000 mile and you have seen recently those we're going to

:39:35.:39:38.

accept as well, with the children. So the country has accepted its

:39:39.:39:42.

responsibilities but up and down the country, there was a huge difference

:39:43.:39:45.

between those who feel we should accept more genuine asylum seekers,

:39:46.:39:50.

that I feel on the doorstep. Because there is a clear problem on the

:39:51.:39:57.

country between those who understand asylum and economic migrants and

:39:58.:40:00.

until we deal with the economic migrant issue, people will always be

:40:01.:40:08.

confused. The record show that if you are welcoming to refugees in

:40:09.:40:12.

this country, with the children in the 1930s, these people grow up in

:40:13.:40:19.

the country that has accepted them and they have children themselves,

:40:20.:40:24.

they become the biggest supporters, the most patriotic people of their

:40:25.:40:31.

adopted nation and they are always grateful and becomes hugely proud of

:40:32.:40:34.

what happened to them, wouldn't that be a plus for the nation? Of course,

:40:35.:40:42.

I grew up with... There is a difference between saying they are

:40:43.:40:45.

supportive of us and whether the country can wear the economic cost

:40:46.:40:52.

of accepting more. Every government has the responsibility to assess the

:40:53.:40:56.

cost of bringing in more people, of which there can be benefits, and

:40:57.:40:59.

also the cost to the country as a whole and whether we can afford it.

:41:00.:41:04.

We have that debate on this show many times to show that low wages

:41:05.:41:09.

and job displacement when we have masses of migration, we need to have

:41:10.:41:16.

a balanced. Let me just come back to you for a reaction, in general, it

:41:17.:41:22.

is you understand it, because I hadn't seen this, that we will allow

:41:23.:41:31.

in 38,000 refugees this year? We have spontaneous arrivals of

:41:32.:41:32.

refugees and the have spontaneous arrivals of

:41:33.:41:36.

small. What we're talking about here is a global crisis, the biggest

:41:37.:41:37.

refugee crisis is a global crisis, the biggest

:41:38.:41:41.

Second World War stop we can continue in the way that people are,

:41:42.:41:44.

governments are, continue in the way that people are,

:41:45.:41:51.

dangerous situations and see all of that, or the can ask our government

:41:52.:41:57.

to use its political capital and experience to work with other

:41:58.:42:00.

governments globally and say we need something on a bigger

:42:01.:42:03.

governments globally and say we need addresses this problem. I think you

:42:04.:42:04.

both. -- It took off from Paris

:42:05.:42:11.

just after 11pm last night, but about 20 minutes before

:42:12.:42:13.

it was due to land in Cairo , Egyptair flight MS804 disappeared

:42:14.:42:17.

from radar screens and lost contact The Airbus A320 had

:42:18.:42:19.

66 people on board - mainly Egyptian and French nationals

:42:20.:42:30.

but also one Briton. The latest is a statement from the

:42:31.:42:45.

Greek Defence Ministry which says the plane swerved sharply at 90

:42:46.:42:51.

degrees and then fell abruptly by 22,000 feet. It was cruising at a

:42:52.:42:57.

normal altitude of 37,000 feet. So this is a very different story to

:42:58.:43:01.

what was originally being looked at this morning, which was the idea

:43:02.:43:06.

they had been some sort of catastrophic incident on board,

:43:07.:43:10.

possibly an explosion. This would steer us in a different direction.

:43:11.:43:15.

But one aviation analyst is talking about is whether there was some kind

:43:16.:43:18.

of fight in the cockpit on board, some kind of struggle between the

:43:19.:43:22.

crew themselves or between one of the passengers or more and the crew.

:43:23.:43:33.

There were no distress calls, and there was nothing to indicate the

:43:34.:43:41.

time the plane left, the Greek flight information region, have

:43:42.:43:44.

passed into the Egyptian region, to indicate there was anything wrong.

:43:45.:43:48.

So whatever took place at very suddenly, with no warning but at the

:43:49.:43:52.

moment there doesn't appear to have been in the explosion. It could be

:43:53.:44:01.

some significance in affected was a flight from France and Egypt, both

:44:02.:44:04.

countries have many terrorist enemies in the middle east, is that

:44:05.:44:11.

a fair point? People are looking at the possibility, I hope it doesn't

:44:12.:44:15.

prove to be true, that somebody with access to air side Charles de Gaulle

:44:16.:44:22.

airport could have placed at device on-board, there was no freight on

:44:23.:44:27.

board the plane but remember last year, Islamic State's Sinai province

:44:28.:44:35.

of village was able to get a device on-board a Russian jet and blow it

:44:36.:44:47.

out of the year. -- out of the air. 60 were laid off after the Paris

:44:48.:44:50.

attacks in the number because of fears they had sympathies with

:44:51.:44:54.

so-called Islamic State, or Islamic extremism. That is something the

:44:55.:44:59.

French internal Security ministry will be looking at.

:45:00.:45:07.

The latest information implies there was some action on the plane,

:45:08.:45:15.

swerving to avoid something? What do you avoid at 30,000 feet? There are

:45:16.:45:21.

no reports of other aircraft at immediate vicinity. It appears to be

:45:22.:45:25.

something on board that caused the pilot to plunge this plane down into

:45:26.:45:31.

the sea. Frank Gardner, thank you very much for bringing as

:45:32.:45:34.

up-to-date. Interesting developments. Anything that happens

:45:35.:45:41.

will be on BBC news throughout the day.

:45:42.:45:43.

The voice of big business has been pretty dominant in the EU

:45:44.:45:46.

When the country was last asked its view on European

:45:47.:45:52.

integration, in the referendum of 1975, the trade unions

:45:53.:45:54.

Now most of them are urging their members to vote to remain,

:45:55.:45:58.

Unions love placards so surely the referendum

:45:59.:46:01.

Unite, the largest union is advising its 1.4

:46:02.:46:08.

Unison is doing the same for its 1.3 million members.

:46:09.:46:15.

The GMB recommends 600,000 members vote to stay and so does

:46:16.:46:19.

USDAW - all four were registered as official campaigners so they can

:46:20.:46:23.

While the next biggest union is the Royal

:46:24.:46:27.

It is neutral but has produced a fact sheet for

:46:28.:46:32.

Some individual trade unionists support the group Another

:46:33.:46:38.

Europe Is Possible which is avoiding David Cameron and big business, it's

:46:39.:46:42.

about to start a nationwide speaking tour featuring people like the

:46:43.:46:46.

Shadow Chancellor, who make a radical, workers'

:46:47.:46:48.

Four weeks paid holiday entitlement, the

:46:49.:46:54.

right to maternity leave, protection on the hours we work

:46:55.:46:58.

and improved rights for agency workers, secured across Europe.

:46:59.:47:04.

All things won by the workers movement that the EU now

:47:05.:47:07.

helps protect and all things that the Tories

:47:08.:47:10.

It's a turnaround from the 1975 referendum on whether to remain

:47:11.:47:16.

in the European Economic Community, when the bulk of trade Unions wanted

:47:17.:47:19.

Such a turnaround was the subject of an academic conference this week.

:47:20.:47:26.

From the perspective of 1975, the EEC looks more like a

:47:27.:47:30.

free-market venture, something that could actually stop

:47:31.:47:33.

socialism being pursued in one country, and that was

:47:34.:47:36.

a big reason for hostility towards it on the left of the political

:47:37.:47:40.

Some trade unionists here still feel that way, though.

:47:41.:47:47.

This is a meeting of Left Exit which is

:47:48.:47:49.

Unite are in favour of staying in the European

:47:50.:47:54.

I think the European Union is increasingly fascist in the way it

:47:55.:47:59.

overrides national governments, look what happened in Greece.

:48:00.:48:03.

I want more immigration, I want more solidarity

:48:04.:48:05.

and I don't think that the borders of Europe were made to help ordinary

:48:06.:48:09.

people, they were made to help the bosses.

:48:10.:48:13.

This campaign is supported by the RMT, ASLEF and the Baker's

:48:14.:48:16.

Union fancy the idea of a Lexit, too.

:48:17.:48:21.

And remember TUSC, the trade union and socialist coalition which

:48:22.:48:23.

They are on the Leave side as well, and even applied to become

:48:24.:48:30.

And Dave Nellist who you saw at the end of that piece joins

:48:31.:48:39.

Why are you campaigning to leave? The European Union is set up

:48:40.:48:53.

essentially for big companies. Its stature is on a continental scale,

:48:54.:48:57.

it promotes privatisation, we've stature is on a continental scale,

:48:58.:49:01.

seen postal services, water, electricity, rail, other forms of

:49:02.:49:06.

transport go. Increasingly, in its court of Justice ruling is it

:49:07.:49:11.

undermines trade union collective-bargaining and right to

:49:12.:49:14.

strike. I think all socialists should vote no on 23rd June. We

:49:15.:49:23.

think Brexit would be a big gamble with jobs, rights and people's

:49:24.:49:29.

livelihoods as well. Look at some of our best organised manufacturing

:49:30.:49:34.

companies, automotive, chemicals, a whole range of companies who

:49:35.:49:39.

critically depend on investment because we are a member of the EU.

:49:40.:49:44.

If we come out, we know what will happen in respect of those

:49:45.:49:49.

investment decisions. We will see good jobs replaced by worse ones,

:49:50.:49:51.

investment decisions. We will see assuming we hold onto them. There is

:49:52.:49:56.

investment decisions. We will see a big issue over workers

:49:57.:49:57.

investment decisions. We will see live in the here and

:49:58.:50:02.

investment decisions. We will see rights, holiday pay,

:50:03.:50:08.

investment decisions. We will see rights are dependent on membership

:50:09.:50:11.

of the EU. Do you trust this government

:50:12.:50:17.

of the EU. Do you trust this unions to protect those rights? The

:50:18.:50:17.

OECD, unions to protect those rights? The

:50:18.:50:21.

planet have a unions to protect those rights? The

:50:22.:50:23.

index. The UK is 31st out of 34. unions to protect those rights? The

:50:24.:50:31.

came long before the EU. I would Francis

:50:32.:50:43.

came long before the EU. I would say, 28 of the heads of government

:50:44.:50:53.

make the policies in the UU, most of them are conservative and favour

:50:54.:50:54.

austerity. I don't think we them are conservative and favour

:50:55.:50:58.

put our faith in Tory governments in Europe. It is true to say that much

:50:59.:51:02.

employment Europe. It is true to say that much

:51:03.:51:08.

originated here. Most of the important ones are. Take

:51:09.:51:20.

originated here. Most of the Dave said, was done before the EU.

:51:21.:51:24.

originated here. Most of the the EU. It has helped millions of

:51:25.:51:28.

women the EU. It has helped millions of

:51:29.:51:34.

about austerity? Take the the EU. It has helped millions of

:51:35.:51:37.

Greece. Do you think they were treated fairly? Absolutely not. We

:51:38.:51:46.

don't think the EU is perfect. As a trade union movement, we have a

:51:47.:51:49.

responsibility to figure out what's in the best interests of workers.

:51:50.:51:54.

We've worked hard on this, looking at the evidence and our guidance to

:51:55.:51:58.

workers is, don't gamble with your jobs, don't gamble with your right,

:51:59.:52:05.

vote to remain. Even Yanis Varoufakis is backing the UK to stay

:52:06.:52:13.

in. Not that he has got a vote. All sorts of people are backing people

:52:14.:52:18.

to stay in but they tend not to be friends of working people. Look at

:52:19.:52:22.

the direction Europe is travelling in. Particularly on legislation, the

:52:23.:52:27.

undermining of collective bargaining. Look at Rotherham, a

:52:28.:52:33.

Croatian company brought in construction workers on half the

:52:34.:52:36.

European Union rate and were forcing down wages. That is the way that the

:52:37.:52:41.

European Union is going. We need strong unions to fight that. Giving

:52:42.:52:49.

them a vote of confidence on June the 23rd is not doing that. Workers

:52:50.:52:54.

have two combine a cross borders. That is the only way we will get a

:52:55.:52:56.

fairer deal. Thank you very much. Now, earlier we talked about

:52:57.:53:00.

the content of the Queen's Speech, No, not the ermine or

:53:01.:53:02.

the horse-drawn carriage, but the two Commons speeches that

:53:03.:53:07.

are supposed to be funny - or at least, funnier than the one

:53:08.:53:10.

delivered by Her Majesty. Traditionally two backbench MPs

:53:11.:53:12.

are chosen to open the debate in the lower chamber

:53:13.:53:19.

with an amusing speech, with the Prime Minister and Leader

:53:20.:53:22.

of the Opposition expected One of the backbenchers

:53:23.:53:25.

was Conservative MP Phillip Lee. Here's a flavour of

:53:26.:53:30.

yesterday's action - including Jeremy Corbyn channelling

:53:31.:53:34.

the captain of Dr Lee's As the house knows, I am

:53:35.:53:37.

a practising doctor. Unfortunately, Mr Speaker,

:53:38.:53:49.

in a medical context, PR does not stand for public relations,

:53:50.:53:53.

but is shorthand for the type of examination that involves putting

:53:54.:53:57.

on rubber gloves, applying gel, and If I may give my right honourable

:53:58.:54:02.

friend the Prime Minister If in the future he finds himself

:54:03.:54:23.

speaking at a medical professional dinner, under no circumstances

:54:24.:54:34.

should he tell the audience that in his life before politics,

:54:35.:54:38.

he was into PR and that he found the work

:54:39.:54:43.

very stimulating. As captain of the Old Grumblers'

:54:44.:54:50.

Cricket Club, I rarely had to handle as obstinate

:54:51.:54:53.

and disruptive a character Who stubbornly refused to stand

:54:54.:54:56.

in any conventional field placement and very openly demonstrated

:54:57.:55:07.

a disdain for team sports, command structures, and presumably

:55:08.:55:13.

this led him to the logical career He is also, I am told,

:55:14.:55:16.

an ardent fan of Queens Park Rangers,

:55:17.:55:26.

but we won't say too much about that because at least one of my teams

:55:27.:55:29.

is joining him Chuckles all round. Philip Lee joins

:55:30.:55:47.

us from Central Lobby. Patrick Kidd is with is in the studio. Were you

:55:48.:55:54.

nervous? How long did you spend writing this? Where did you get the

:55:55.:56:00.

joke? It all came from my office. It was an internal job. I was nervous.

:56:01.:56:05.

I had been in my sick bed for a few days so I was happy that it went OK,

:56:06.:56:11.

considering. Were you happy with the reaction of Jeremy Corbyn and Mr

:56:12.:56:17.

Cameron? I knew where that was coming from. The current captain of

:56:18.:56:21.

the team is from Islington and Highbury. I guessed it was going to

:56:22.:56:25.

be tough on me but it was good humoured. How did it compared to

:56:26.:56:32.

similar occasions? I thought it was very good. It is daunting to get up

:56:33.:56:37.

and make those jokes. There was one about the Sutra.

:56:38.:56:49.

Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have a reputation for mirth and he was very

:56:50.:57:02.

funny. It's a shame he spoke at an extra 35 winners. There were good

:57:03.:57:08.

jokes all round. Who writes the jokes in your speeches? There are

:57:09.:57:18.

not necessarily lots of them but they are really good quality. Philip

:57:19.:57:24.

Lee, did you get a good reaction afterwards? I really did. I had

:57:25.:57:28.

people hugging me which was disconcerting. And they were just

:57:29.:57:35.

Tories! I had a good response from both sides of the house and I was

:57:36.:57:38.

glad to make people laugh but I said some serious things as well and it

:57:39.:57:42.

was good to get that over as well. Is this good for an MP's career to

:57:43.:57:48.

get noticed? You've been in the house for five years and you made a

:57:49.:57:53.

really big mark. I'm not sure. About five of the people who have seconded

:57:54.:57:58.

the speech over seven years are no longer members of Parliament. So,

:57:59.:58:03.

who knows? This might be the last time we see you! Well, it's been

:58:04.:58:11.

nice having you on the programme. We may not see you ever again. Thank

:58:12.:58:14.

you. Just time to get the answer to the

:58:15.:58:37.

quiz. I'd get one direction. I think you'll find it's Ross Jones, the

:58:38.:58:41.

mayor. Interestingly, Ed Miliband has slipped to number 40. There you

:58:42.:58:47.

go, the power list in Doncaster. That's it. Back tonight on BBC One

:58:48.:58:54.

with this week after question Time. Here tomorrow on BBC Two at noon.

:58:55.:58:57.

Try to join us. Goodbye. Soak up the atmosphere at the most

:58:58.:59:02.

famous flower show in the world. from the RHS Chelsea Flower Show

:59:03.:59:07.

2016. You look lovely, Mum.

:59:08.:59:21.

Go on, do a twirl.

:59:22.:59:24.

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by cabinet minister Chris Grayling and TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady to discuss the latest developments at Westminster, including the EU referendum and the Queen's Speech.


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