19/05/2016 Daily Politics


19/05/2016

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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There are more than 400,000 more people in work than a year ago -

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but are most of those new jobs going to immigrants?

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but will the raft of bills she announced do anything

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to distract from the referendum debate raging in the Conservative

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An Egyptair airliner with more than 60 people on board -

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including one Briton - goes missing en route

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from Paris to Cairo - we'll bring you the latest.

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And what happens when MPs try their hand at stand-up comedy?

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Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, in the medical context, PR does not stand

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for public relations. But is shorthand for the top of examination

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that involves putting on rubber gloves, applying gel and asking a

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man to cough! All that in the next hour

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and with us for the duration today - our own comic genius -

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the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress -

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or TUC - Frances O'Grady. First this morning -

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more than half of the new jobs created in the UK in last years went

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to non-UK nationals from the EU - that's according to figures released

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yeasterday by the Office The ONS said that 409,000 more

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people are in work than a year ago The number of non-UK nationals

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from the EU working in the UK increased by 224,000

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to 2.15 million. So EU migrants made up

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55% of the increase The figures have been seized

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upon by those campaigning for us Former work and Pension Secretary,

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Iain Duncan Smith, said "the truth is that it

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is Brits on low pay - and those out of work -

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who feel the consequences of Let's just look at some of these

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figures a little bit. One in six jobs in the UK, 5.2 million out of a

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total workforce of jobs in the UK, 5.2 million out of a

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now held by people who were born abroad. Does that have no effect on

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wages or the prospect? Not according to the London School of economics

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report was published, which showed there wasn't any harm, but of course

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people worry about wages. But I think is the real threat to

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immigration, * of a Brexit. That may immigration, * of a Brexit. That may

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these figures to get the TUC immigration, * of a Brexit. That may

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created in the past year, but 80% of them want to people born outside the

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on wages or

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on need to be really

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on workers aren't the

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on they are the victims of low pay, and

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UK. 80%. Does that have no effect on if we going to cause the causes of

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low pay, we need to get tough on business greed, make sure people

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have a proper living wage, that under 25-year-olds aren't excluded

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from the higher minimum wage, that's the kind of action we need to take

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and we need strong trade unions in areas like construction. Quite a few

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and we need strong trade unions in unions are... I haven't got the

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figure for you. You looked at unions are... I haven't got the

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general counsel, you will see generations... I mean the ones who

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have generations... I mean the ones who

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years, they are not rushing to join unions. A lot of migrant workers are

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in the areas of the economy where we find it hard to organise because

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they are zero hours, high turnover, those are the root of the problems.

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Let me get to the root of this, there are 2.2 million EU citizens

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working in the UK. It has doubled in five years, it used to be just over

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a million. Are you arguing that that huge increase in labour coming to

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this country has had no effect on wages? I don't think there is any

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evidence to show it has, but what I would say is that there are areas in

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food companies, food manufacturing Company 's, construction site, hotel

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and catering, where some bad employers have deliberately gone

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over to Eastern Europe, hired labour on agency contracts and used them to

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undercut pay. We know that has happened. So there are 1.7 million

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people in this country looking for work but unable to find it. And you

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telling me that arise in 1 million more EU citizens coming here to work

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has no effect on their ability, the 1.7 million, to find work? What I'm

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telling you is the real issue here is how to rein in those bad

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employers who use workers from overseas to undercut local workers,

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and undermined union agreements. People have been calling that the

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years, I am trying to work out how given that we have just under 2

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million people still looking for work, unable to find it, and over 1

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million from the EE you alone, put aside those coming in from outside

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the U, which is flat lined in recent years will stop that huge influx of

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labour, unprecedented in our history in terms of size, has no effect on

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those in this country, on low pay, or without a job? The real effect is

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whether or not we get tough on greedy employers, whether reinvest

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in our infrastructure so we create decent, well-paid jobs. But that's a

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generalised thing. Because these numbers are huge. Let's take those

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who have been doing low paid jobs. Romanians and Bulgarians have been

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allowed to come here since 2014, unimpeded, that's when they became

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full members of the free movement of labour. How many have come in since

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then? A quarter of a million Romanians and Bulgarians now working

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in this country. I think we can agree that most of them are doing

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low paid work. Absolutely. Does that have no effect on the pressing the

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wages of those of our citizens already on low pay? Only if you let

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employers get away with it and politicians don't need let employers

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get away with it. But even the last Labour government took almost nobody

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to court for not paying the minimum wage, thinks there were about ten

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convictions. And this government has introduced employment tribunal fees.

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The latest figures aren't actually coming from Poland and Eastern

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Europe or even so much from Romania and Bulgarians, they're coming from

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what you might call the old E 15, France, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and

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they might not be doing quite as low-wage work as some of the ones we

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have been talking about. 250,000 in the last year, that has no effect on

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our labour market? In itself that isn't the issue. I think what we

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have to do is, why have we got 6 million workers in Britain earning

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less than the living wage? Why haven't we got a decent industrial

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strategy? If we keep on bringing labour in in this quantity, it'll be

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a long while, you know enough about economics to know that if you

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massively increase the supply of something as we have done in recent

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years, the price falls. It does if you allow employers to get away with

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it. It's not the case in every country that immigration drags down

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wages, in fact the London School of economic support suggested it was in

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the case here either. But where has mass immigration not put down wages?

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In European countries, where do have strong collective-bargaining

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coverage, where... What is the average rate of unemployment in the

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Eurozone? It is 10%! Here is the basic economic. If you remove the

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incentive from employers to use immigrant labour is cheap labour,

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they stop sending people... No one has stricter labour laws than

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France, they have the kind of label as you would like in the TUC. It is

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almost impossible to hire and fire somebody. I think they are under

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pressure. And you know why, because 25% of young French people are

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unemployed and French wages have barely moved in real terms for years

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and yet they have had, like us, a huge increase in immigration. There

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isn't a shred of international evidence to suggest that by making

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workers weaker, you improve employment opportunities. Why are

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25% of young French/ unemployed? I know that French unions tell me that

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as in this country, people feel the balance of power has gone too far in

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favour of employers, and the rule solution is putting some power back

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in the hands of working people. If everything you say is right, if this

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huge rise in workers coming from elsewhere has had no effect on

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wages, why wages only rising by 2%? We're still suffering from the

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crash, the bankers crash, and the failure it was seven years ago. I

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know! What has happened since in terms of getting to grips with...

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But if this huge increase in labour has had no impact on the price of

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labour, rye, eight years after the crash, on wages rising by 2% all

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less? But it was the crash that really damaged wages and don't

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forget, inequality was rising long before we had the crash. You can't

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be happy they only rising by 2%? I am certainly not. If we don't get

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back the demand in the economy, we won't get the economy moving. We

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need money in people's pay packets to buy goods and services.

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And if you want more analysis of these employment figures -

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and what they tell us about migration, you can go

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The question for today is who is the most powerful person

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in Doncaster - well, according to the Doncaster

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At the end of the show will, we give you the correct answer. What is One

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Direction? Is that the street? There was lots of pomp

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and circumstance - and plenty of bills were announced

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but we had heard about most of what the Queen

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said yesterday before - and by the end of the day

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Conservative MPs were talking about its implications

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for the EU referendum. There were 21 Bills in Her Majesty's

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65th speech to Parliament. prisoners home on weekdays only

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using electronic satellite-tagging Extremism was also

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on the government's agenda, with a new civil order regime

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to restrict extremist activity in England and Wales

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and new powers of intervention to tackle radicalisation of children

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in "unregulated education settings". And the Conservative plans

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for a UK Bill of Rights before final proposals

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are brought forward. But if the Government hoped

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yesterday's Queen's speech would bring some respite from rows

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about the EU referendum, as critics were quick to point out

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that there was no sign And we're joined now

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by the Leader of the House Let's start with prisons, something

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you know something about in your previous role. Is allowing prisoners

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to live at home joined the wickets of Justice? Depends on the second

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stance. Where you have people who have been convicted of a sentence

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early on, who might get a community sentence otherwise, it is important,

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we know the link between offending and implement is massive, so if in

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some situations the court judge that an individual is better off being

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left to work during the week but to lose the liberty of times when they

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wouldn't be at work, it's a different approach and could make a

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difference. Different to the approach you had when you were

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running prisons? I pursued a strategy of providing better support

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for people through the gate on the left prison. Give me some examples

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of how you did that. He said, life must be made harder for criminals.

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Is this what you had in mind? What I did was a continuation of what I

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started in 2010. Buy into the situation where 50,000 prisoners a

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year were walking out after short sentences with no guidance, support,

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nothing, never get proper planning for release and support for 12

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months after. One of the things I did was double the might of

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education that young offenders get. You try to ban books coming into

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prisons. That's a myth. That never happened. Now, where trying to do

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more in adult prisons with people with no qualifications, mental

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health problems. He is continuing a process with good, innovative ideas

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about how we stop enormous levels of reoffending. Nearly 60% of

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short-term prisoners and 50% of all prisoners reoffend within a year.

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Who's fault is that? Some jails are not fit for purpose, Michael Gove

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says, that must have happened on your watch. What I did was build new

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prison wings, started the construction of a major new prison

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which Michael is going to continue with. It is turning around Victorian

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prisons some of which don't have space to build a workshop. Why are

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they overcrowded and dangerous? Let's be clear, the prison

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population is almost the same as it was in 2010. The number of places in

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the system is almost exactly the same in 2010. Identix the premise

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that the prison system is massively more overcrowded than it was in the

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past. Why did Michael Gove say they are not fit for purpose? We have

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seen footage inside some prisons where prisoners are running a mock.

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Some of our prisons are well out of date, built in Victorian times. It

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is not a question of overcrowding but out of date facilities. I built

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a big new prison in Wrexham, we are building new wings in prisons.

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Michael is moving ahead with nine new prisons. It is about bringing in

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modern facilities that are fit for purpose so we send people back onto

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the streets in better shape. Some other elements of the Queen 's

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speech. The Bill of Rights. Will there be legislation in this

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Parliament or is this going to be a consultation? Yermak row I'm

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expected -- I'm expecting legislation to come forward in the

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not too distant future. We have been told it will be a consultation. That

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usually means another few years down the line before any issue in terms

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of legislation is discussed. When you think the legislation will come

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forward? In the not too distant future, after the period of

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consultation. We're going to bring forward detailed proposals. We will

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discuss them. Then we'll move on. You're going to scrap the Human

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Rights Act brought in by Labour and leave the European Convention on

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Human Rights? It's about rebalancing the relationship between our courts

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and European courts. There is a number of ways you can strengthen

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the powers of our courts. Wait for the consultation document to see

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that. I'm intrigued. You can't change the supremacy of European

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courts unless the UK leaves the European Convention on Human Rights.

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Is that going to be proposed? We will have to wait and see. I am not

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going to announce that today. We have set out plans to change the

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balance between our courts and to change the nature of human rights

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laws in this country to make our courts stronger. You will have to

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wait for the detail. It would make our courts supreme over European

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courts? It is to make our courts more superior over. The crucial word

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is supreme? Are you going to make courts supreme? Millar you will have

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to wait for the detail. I am not going to announce them today. It is

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not a detail. It is fundamental. I will leave it for Michael when he

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announces the consultation package. Can I check something quite

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important. The European Court of Human Rights is written into the

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Scottish devolution settlement, it is part of devolution. You cannot

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change that. You cannot come out of it without the permission of the

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Scottish parliament, which I think you know as well as I, you won't

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get. You are just going up a cul-de-sac. What's written into the

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devolution settlement is the wording of the convention. That's what I

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just said. We have never said that we want to move away. The issue is,

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over a lengthy period of time, courts have moved away from where we

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believe human rights laws should be. Moved away from the spirit of that

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convention. We seek to address that. We will pick over that with a fine

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tooth comb. Were you disappointed that the sovereignty bill was not in

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the Queens speech? It has to wait until after the referendum. I hope

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it won't arise. I am campaigning to leave and if we do leave, the

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question doesn't arise. The question of the referendum has basically

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dominated. It was amazing how little was covered in the Queens speech in

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terms of its dominance in terms of the referendum. You say that but we

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are putting in place the remainder of our manifesto. We have delivered

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almost all of the manifesto. We are creating life chances for people in

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deprived backgrounds. There is a very strong and broad ranging

:21:37.:21:39.

package. There was no sovereignty bill. You hope it won't arise.

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People want to focus on higher education, skills, terrorism. We

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have just passed a bill on immigration in the last few weeks.

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It has been through the Lords and passed into law. What about

:21:57.:22:00.

homelessness? That Bill wasn't there. We have just had a Housing

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act passed into law in the last couple of weeks. All of this has

:22:07.:22:10.

been a shout show to couple of weeks. All of this has

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referendum. I don't think so. For example, the Digital economy,

:22:17.:22:19.

referendum. I don't think so. For strengthening is a crucial part of

:22:20.:22:20.

our economic future. That's in strengthening is a crucial part of

:22:21.:22:24.

there. Measures to deal with adoption and care, really important.

:22:25.:22:31.

Will be there once the referendum is over? Of course.

:22:32.:22:37.

Will be there once the referendum is for government for the next 12

:22:38.:22:39.

Will be there once the referendum is months. Of course it will carry on.

:22:40.:22:43.

We will be negotiating to leave the European Union at the same time, I

:22:44.:22:47.

hope. It is necessary to progress with a domestic programme that will

:22:48.:22:50.

benefit with a domestic programme that will

:22:51.:22:57.

European Union. Will you still be in the Cabinet after the European union

:22:58.:22:59.

if we vote to remain? the Cabinet after the European union

:23:00.:23:01.

They always say that the Cabinet after the European union

:23:02.:23:11.

it happens to be true. Can't we be honest about the sovereignty bill.

:23:12.:23:16.

It was to buy off Boris Johnson and he has ratted on you so there will

:23:17.:23:28.

no be no sovereignty bill. On one thing I agree, I hope there won't be

:23:29.:23:32.

a sovereignty bill because I hope we will be leaving

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Now, the Shadow Home Secretary and former

:23:40.:23:40.

Labour Leadership Candidate Andy Burnham has announced his bid

:23:41.:23:42.

to become Labour's candidate for Mayor of Greater Manchester.

:23:43.:23:45.

Here he his launching his campaign at a speech

:23:46.:23:47.

Our own party, you've heard me say this before, has been too

:23:48.:23:51.

London-centric down the years and, consequently, we've left a situation

:23:52.:23:53.

people out there, haven't felt that we are responding properly

:23:54.:23:56.

What I want to do, in launching this campaign today,

:23:57.:24:01.

is develop a distinctive brand of Northern Labour.

:24:02.:24:07.

Give Labour a stronger Northern voice that speaks

:24:08.:24:11.

to the people out there and I think that's what

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And Andy Burnham joins us now from Salford.

:24:15.:24:25.

Welcome to the programme. Why are you abandoning Westminster? Because

:24:26.:24:35.

I think I can do more to change this place, greater Manchester, and

:24:36.:24:41.

indeed politics in this country by making the statement. Westminster,

:24:42.:24:46.

over the centuries, has left us with an unequal country. I would go as

:24:47.:24:50.

far as saying, it has failed the north of England. We have a very

:24:51.:24:56.

uneven distribution of resources, life chances and power. I don't see

:24:57.:25:02.

that Westminster is going to change that. There is an opportunity to

:25:03.:25:07.

rebalance the country by making this decision I think I'm sending a

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statement that this country needs to change and we need to rebalance it,

:25:12.:25:15.

south to north. That's at the heart of my campaign. You don't even think

:25:16.:25:20.

a Labour government would do that rebalancing? It did. I'm here in

:25:21.:25:27.

Salford, media city is just over the way. We did many things to change

:25:28.:25:34.

the media power of the country. I remember, many in the BBC weren't

:25:35.:25:39.

keen but we were right to do it. To try and rebalance the way that the

:25:40.:25:42.

country worked and bring different voices onto the airwaves. There is

:25:43.:25:50.

only so much you can do. The inequalities in England are very

:25:51.:25:53.

deeply entrenched. That's why am saying that we need a campaign for

:25:54.:25:58.

an equal England. It is an balanced between north and south and we've

:25:59.:26:02.

known that for many years. Now, there really needs to be a moment of

:26:03.:26:07.

change. You don't have much confidence in Labour's ability to

:26:08.:26:11.

win the next election because you said the party did things to change

:26:12.:26:14.

the balance but you don't believe they're going to be in power in 2020

:26:15.:26:18.

and you have decided to leave Westminster and go your own way. I

:26:19.:26:26.

don't see it at all, how you can claim that, the point I make today

:26:27.:26:31.

is that Labour needs to revitalise in the North of England. We need a

:26:32.:26:35.

distinctive Northern voice if we are to connect with voters here. There

:26:36.:26:39.

is a worry that we are losing our group with some voters here. They

:26:40.:26:44.

feel that we are to London centric. You've heard me say that many times

:26:45.:26:48.

over the years on your programme. In my view, I can do more to help the

:26:49.:26:55.

party by making this statement, by working now to revitalise Labour in

:26:56.:27:00.

the north. I think that can do more to build towards 2020 election

:27:01.:27:08.

victory. Jeremy Corbyn have spoken about this in much detail. I gave

:27:09.:27:14.

him a commitment to work with him to build the Labour Party coming out of

:27:15.:27:18.

the last election. I have been doing that in the Shadow Cabinet but we

:27:19.:27:22.

have agreed that I can move into this role to continue this process

:27:23.:27:25.

of rebuilding and strengthening labour in all parts of the country.

:27:26.:27:32.

That is how we will win in 2020. Jeremy Corbyn, from a London

:27:33.:27:36.

constituency, is he to London centric and as a result his Labour

:27:37.:27:43.

Party? I don't personalise it. The party has been to London centric

:27:44.:27:48.

over many years. It goes back a long time. It doesn't help that Jeremy

:27:49.:27:53.

Corbyn is seen as a London metropolitan elite. It wouldn't help

:27:54.:27:58.

persuade the people you want? I don't think that is right. If you

:27:59.:28:04.

look in our big cities, the big cities really rallied around Jeremy

:28:05.:28:07.

Corbyn in the leadership election and he won well in the North as well

:28:08.:28:13.

as in the south. He has got a very big mandate and people want a

:28:14.:28:17.

different kind of politics. He was absolutely right about that. I want

:28:18.:28:23.

to work with him to build that. Is he right on immigration when he says

:28:24.:28:28.

that we should have more migrants and refugees coming? I have said

:28:29.:28:33.

over many years that immigration is overall a good thing. That is the

:28:34.:28:37.

argument that Jeremy makes. I make this point, from a Northern 's

:28:38.:28:41.

perspective, what we hear on the airwaves on programme's like yours

:28:42.:28:47.

is the London take on immigration, that it is a purely good thing about

:28:48.:28:52.

driving the economy. That has left people in the North feeling that

:28:53.:28:55.

politicians aren't speaking to them. In the former industrial

:28:56.:29:01.

communities, there are pressures on public services, undercutting of

:29:02.:29:05.

wages, and the failure of the Labour Party to address those issues about

:29:06.:29:10.

a decade ago has given us a feeling that we are out of touch in parts of

:29:11.:29:15.

the North. I want to change that and corrected. That is part of why I am

:29:16.:29:22.

making this move. Is Jeremy Corbyn addressing that issue in the right

:29:23.:29:25.

way for northern constituencies like yours? I thought it was absolutely

:29:26.:29:34.

brilliant, I think, a fortnight ago when he challenged David Cameron in

:29:35.:29:39.

the House of Commons to support a European proposal to stop the

:29:40.:29:42.

undercutting of skilled wages. It was his first question at PMQ 's

:29:43.:29:48.

couple of weeks ago. Cameron squirmed and wouldn't tell us

:29:49.:29:53.

whether his MEPs would back it. Absolutely, Jeremy Corbyn was

:29:54.:29:56.

raising the right issue and it's an issue that Labour needs to talk

:29:57.:30:01.

about more. Labour movement can be a good thing but don't let it undercut

:30:02.:30:06.

the wages of skilled workers across the North of England. It was

:30:07.:30:09.

brilliant that he took that issue directly to the Prime Minister. Andy

:30:10.:30:14.

Vernon, good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

:30:15.:30:23.

The lesson of London is, if you want to win, have a top-class candidate

:30:24.:30:29.

and if you lose, you have a dirty campaign. So the better the

:30:30.:30:33.

candidates, the Queen of the fight... I think Andy is great and

:30:34.:30:39.

no doubt there will be other great candidates as well. I think it's an

:30:40.:30:53.

opportunity and Boris Johnson, and now Andy Burnham, there could be

:30:54.:31:02.

elected mayors of our major cities, we go more like the Americans, the

:31:03.:31:06.

French or Italian roots, they then become springboards, into national

:31:07.:31:12.

politics. The Prime Minister of Italy was my of Florence before and

:31:13.:31:16.

Boris Johnson is now going international politics, big-time

:31:17.:31:21.

bust up -- mayor of Florence. It gives them experience as well. It's

:31:22.:31:25.

no bad thing in terms of the calibre of our political leadership,

:31:26.:31:29.

regardless of party, for people of our political leadership,

:31:30.:31:33.

have that executive responsibility and some big ambition in terms

:31:34.:31:39.

have that executive responsibility their party. Because they are

:31:40.:31:40.

directly elected. Most of us living in the UK

:31:41.:31:45.

are willing to open which ranks

:31:46.:31:50.

27 countries based on people's readiness to let refugees

:31:51.:31:56.

live in their countries, towns, neighbourhoods and homes,

:31:57.:31:59.

in a so-called China tops the list of 27

:32:00.:32:06.

countries in the survey, followed by Germany,

:32:07.:32:10.

and then the UK. And coming in

:32:11.:32:12.

at the bottom - it's Russia. Around the world,

:32:13.:32:15.

10% of people would let But that figures rises

:32:16.:32:23.

to 29% here in the UK. 47% of people in this country

:32:24.:32:28.

would welcome refugees And a big majority of

:32:29.:32:34.

people in Britain, 87%, say refugees should be allowed

:32:35.:32:40.

into the country. Meanwhile,

:32:41.:32:43.

66% of people around the world think their governments

:32:44.:32:45.

should do more help those fleeing We're just trying to make connection

:32:46.:33:08.

there with him. Let me come to you first, Kate, were you surprised that

:33:09.:33:11.

we came third? I wasn't surprised by the results at all, we decided to do

:33:12.:33:17.

this poll because we kept being told by governments around the world that

:33:18.:33:23.

people don't want to give support and a refuge to people fleeing war

:33:24.:33:27.

and persecution, and that's not what we see, it's not what we see in this

:33:28.:33:32.

country and not what we see in many parts of the world. So we thought,

:33:33.:33:36.

let's do a poll, let's test this, let's see what comes from the pole.

:33:37.:33:43.

What we get there is 20 out of 27 countries where over 75 people say

:33:44.:33:50.

that refugees, people fleeing war and persecution, should get support

:33:51.:33:56.

-- over 75% of people. I think it's interesting that China came first,

:33:57.:34:01.

people were answering that question in a country with little experience

:34:02.:34:05.

of refugees but answering it from the heart. Have taken very few

:34:06.:34:14.

refugees in recent years? Yes, but this country that came second is

:34:15.:34:19.

Germany, which has taken in a lot. What you're getting is a response

:34:20.:34:23.

from the heart in terms of China, people have little experience of it

:34:24.:34:28.

but saying all the more cynical interpretation would be taken say

:34:29.:34:31.

yes because they know the government would never allow it. We're talking

:34:32.:34:37.

to ordinary people through a polling company. People are very careful

:34:38.:34:42.

what they say in a country like Germany. The Dilma Rousseff --

:34:43.:34:52.

China. How do we know whether to believe them or not, when they said

:34:53.:34:55.

they would accept refugees in their home? It is a poll, they are

:34:56.:35:01.

answering what the poster has asked them. What we see at Amnesty, people

:35:02.:35:07.

campaigning with the local councils, asking them to take refugees,

:35:08.:35:12.

particularly keen and angry about this government's policy in terms of

:35:13.:35:17.

refugees from Syria, where we have taken 1300. 1300 in a crisis of 5

:35:18.:35:26.

million across the world. Last year this country took in about 20,000

:35:27.:35:30.

refugees, it's not right to say it's 1000... It's a lot less than Sweden,

:35:31.:35:38.

per capita, Gregg Gillis, and a lot less than Germany. -- a great deal

:35:39.:35:46.

less. I was talking about people from Syria where the government has

:35:47.:35:51.

announced a programme... From the camps, not the people already in

:35:52.:35:56.

Europe. The numbers here in the UK are very, very small. It is Sweden

:35:57.:36:01.

and Germany in Europe who are taking something like 50% of refugees

:36:02.:36:07.

across Europe. So our country is doing very well, actually, in

:36:08.:36:12.

providing resources and providing support for people in the region,

:36:13.:36:16.

it's not doing well in terms of the people here who needs help. What we

:36:17.:36:22.

are saying is that all countries who could afford it should provide

:36:23.:36:26.

support for people from the region and also ticking people... Some of

:36:27.:36:33.

the most vulnerable. And what we need is a global response, so the UN

:36:34.:36:36.

is meeting next week and again in September... Can't even get a

:36:37.:36:43.

European response! So how could you ever hope to get a global response,

:36:44.:36:49.

when even the EU has not managed to come up with a concerted United

:36:50.:36:55.

response? I know, and it is appalling that the EU has left

:36:56.:36:58.

Germany and Sweden and others to do the things that they have done and

:36:59.:37:02.

nobody has joined in, but it doesn't mean we should stop demanding... It

:37:03.:37:08.

is the biggest refugee crisis since the end of the Second World War.

:37:09.:37:12.

What was the size of the sample in the UK? 1000. The only reason I ask

:37:13.:37:20.

is it is different from the private polling of the political parties,

:37:21.:37:24.

especially on the conservative side. One of the reason I believe the

:37:25.:37:28.

government has taken a hard line is that polling shows it wouldn't be

:37:29.:37:33.

popular. But look at public opinion, that has made the government changes

:37:34.:37:37.

mind on taking people from Syria, public opinion that said we should

:37:38.:37:41.

take children when the government was trying to say that defeated,

:37:42.:37:49.

again and again, our government, our politicians underestimate people in

:37:50.:37:53.

this country. Some of the private polling I've been told is very

:37:54.:37:58.

different from your poll but we will never know the difference is, let me

:37:59.:38:02.

bring in Stephen, migration spokesman for Ukip who has been

:38:03.:38:05.

listening to most of this. This polling would suggest that we are

:38:06.:38:10.

rather generous country, that we realise our obligations to refugees

:38:11.:38:14.

and we should take more in. What you say? I think the polling is right to

:38:15.:38:20.

suggest that people in Britain have always been welcoming the genuine

:38:21.:38:24.

refugees, we have accepted those in the past, and we are kind and

:38:25.:38:29.

generous nation. I am not so sure that a poll of 1000 people, I

:38:30.:38:36.

haven't seen exactly what type of people they were, what class of

:38:37.:38:40.

individuals... We assume it is a reasonably robust potent it has 1000

:38:41.:38:45.

people by a reputable polling company, with no polls often don't

:38:46.:38:49.

get it right but it must give a fair snapshot of opinion. It would

:38:50.:38:56.

suggest that if the government lived up to the humanity and the record of

:38:57.:38:59.

the British people, it would be prepared to take more refugees, not

:39:00.:39:07.

talking about migrants, more refugees. What would be wrong with

:39:08.:39:13.

that? Again I emphasise, even if you look at Ukip's policies in the past,

:39:14.:39:18.

we said we had to have our responsibilities to the UN

:39:19.:39:20.

agreements we have signed but this year I think we will accept 38,000

:39:21.:39:25.

genuine asylum seekers into this country and I think we spent, with

:39:26.:39:30.

the government, over a billion helping out those in Lebanon decided

:39:31.:39:34.

to take in 38,000 mile and you have seen recently those we're going to

:39:35.:39:38.

accept as well, with the children. So the country has accepted its

:39:39.:39:42.

responsibilities but up and down the country, there was a huge difference

:39:43.:39:45.

between those who feel we should accept more genuine asylum seekers,

:39:46.:39:50.

that I feel on the doorstep. Because there is a clear problem on the

:39:51.:39:57.

country between those who understand asylum and economic migrants and

:39:58.:40:00.

until we deal with the economic migrant issue, people will always be

:40:01.:40:08.

confused. The record show that if you are welcoming to refugees in

:40:09.:40:12.

this country, with the children in the 1930s, these people grow up in

:40:13.:40:19.

the country that has accepted them and they have children themselves,

:40:20.:40:24.

they become the biggest supporters, the most patriotic people of their

:40:25.:40:31.

adopted nation and they are always grateful and becomes hugely proud of

:40:32.:40:34.

what happened to them, wouldn't that be a plus for the nation? Of course,

:40:35.:40:42.

I grew up with... There is a difference between saying they are

:40:43.:40:45.

supportive of us and whether the country can wear the economic cost

:40:46.:40:52.

of accepting more. Every government has the responsibility to assess the

:40:53.:40:56.

cost of bringing in more people, of which there can be benefits, and

:40:57.:40:59.

also the cost to the country as a whole and whether we can afford it.

:41:00.:41:04.

We have that debate on this show many times to show that low wages

:41:05.:41:09.

and job displacement when we have masses of migration, we need to have

:41:10.:41:16.

a balanced. Let me just come back to you for a reaction, in general, it

:41:17.:41:22.

is you understand it, because I hadn't seen this, that we will allow

:41:23.:41:31.

in 38,000 refugees this year? We have spontaneous arrivals of

:41:32.:41:32.

refugees and the have spontaneous arrivals of

:41:33.:41:36.

small. What we're talking about here is a global crisis, the biggest

:41:37.:41:37.

refugee crisis is a global crisis, the biggest

:41:38.:41:41.

Second World War stop we can continue in the way that people are,

:41:42.:41:44.

governments are, continue in the way that people are,

:41:45.:41:51.

dangerous situations and see all of that, or the can ask our government

:41:52.:41:57.

to use its political capital and experience to work with other

:41:58.:42:00.

governments globally and say we need something on a bigger

:42:01.:42:03.

governments globally and say we need addresses this problem. I think you

:42:04.:42:04.

both. -- It took off from Paris

:42:05.:42:11.

just after 11pm last night, but about 20 minutes before

:42:12.:42:13.

it was due to land in Cairo , Egyptair flight MS804 disappeared

:42:14.:42:17.

from radar screens and lost contact The Airbus A320 had

:42:18.:42:19.

66 people on board - mainly Egyptian and French nationals

:42:20.:42:30.

but also one Briton. The latest is a statement from the

:42:31.:42:45.

Greek Defence Ministry which says the plane swerved sharply at 90

:42:46.:42:51.

degrees and then fell abruptly by 22,000 feet. It was cruising at a

:42:52.:42:57.

normal altitude of 37,000 feet. So this is a very different story to

:42:58.:43:01.

what was originally being looked at this morning, which was the idea

:43:02.:43:06.

they had been some sort of catastrophic incident on board,

:43:07.:43:10.

possibly an explosion. This would steer us in a different direction.

:43:11.:43:15.

But one aviation analyst is talking about is whether there was some kind

:43:16.:43:18.

of fight in the cockpit on board, some kind of struggle between the

:43:19.:43:22.

crew themselves or between one of the passengers or more and the crew.

:43:23.:43:33.

There were no distress calls, and there was nothing to indicate the

:43:34.:43:41.

time the plane left, the Greek flight information region, have

:43:42.:43:44.

passed into the Egyptian region, to indicate there was anything wrong.

:43:45.:43:48.

So whatever took place at very suddenly, with no warning but at the

:43:49.:43:52.

moment there doesn't appear to have been in the explosion. It could be

:43:53.:44:01.

some significance in affected was a flight from France and Egypt, both

:44:02.:44:04.

countries have many terrorist enemies in the middle east, is that

:44:05.:44:11.

a fair point? People are looking at the possibility, I hope it doesn't

:44:12.:44:15.

prove to be true, that somebody with access to air side Charles de Gaulle

:44:16.:44:22.

airport could have placed at device on-board, there was no freight on

:44:23.:44:27.

board the plane but remember last year, Islamic State's Sinai province

:44:28.:44:35.

of village was able to get a device on-board a Russian jet and blow it

:44:36.:44:47.

out of the year. -- out of the air. 60 were laid off after the Paris

:44:48.:44:50.

attacks in the number because of fears they had sympathies with

:44:51.:44:54.

so-called Islamic State, or Islamic extremism. That is something the

:44:55.:44:59.

French internal Security ministry will be looking at.

:45:00.:45:07.

The latest information implies there was some action on the plane,

:45:08.:45:15.

swerving to avoid something? What do you avoid at 30,000 feet? There are

:45:16.:45:21.

no reports of other aircraft at immediate vicinity. It appears to be

:45:22.:45:25.

something on board that caused the pilot to plunge this plane down into

:45:26.:45:31.

the sea. Frank Gardner, thank you very much for bringing as

:45:32.:45:34.

up-to-date. Interesting developments. Anything that happens

:45:35.:45:41.

will be on BBC news throughout the day.

:45:42.:45:43.

The voice of big business has been pretty dominant in the EU

:45:44.:45:46.

When the country was last asked its view on European

:45:47.:45:52.

integration, in the referendum of 1975, the trade unions

:45:53.:45:54.

Now most of them are urging their members to vote to remain,

:45:55.:45:58.

Unions love placards so surely the referendum

:45:59.:46:01.

Unite, the largest union is advising its 1.4

:46:02.:46:08.

Unison is doing the same for its 1.3 million members.

:46:09.:46:15.

The GMB recommends 600,000 members vote to stay and so does

:46:16.:46:19.

USDAW - all four were registered as official campaigners so they can

:46:20.:46:23.

While the next biggest union is the Royal

:46:24.:46:27.

It is neutral but has produced a fact sheet for

:46:28.:46:32.

Some individual trade unionists support the group Another

:46:33.:46:38.

Europe Is Possible which is avoiding David Cameron and big business, it's

:46:39.:46:42.

about to start a nationwide speaking tour featuring people like the

:46:43.:46:46.

Shadow Chancellor, who make a radical, workers'

:46:47.:46:48.

Four weeks paid holiday entitlement, the

:46:49.:46:54.

right to maternity leave, protection on the hours we work

:46:55.:46:58.

and improved rights for agency workers, secured across Europe.

:46:59.:47:04.

All things won by the workers movement that the EU now

:47:05.:47:07.

helps protect and all things that the Tories

:47:08.:47:10.

It's a turnaround from the 1975 referendum on whether to remain

:47:11.:47:16.

in the European Economic Community, when the bulk of trade Unions wanted

:47:17.:47:19.

Such a turnaround was the subject of an academic conference this week.

:47:20.:47:26.

From the perspective of 1975, the EEC looks more like a

:47:27.:47:30.

free-market venture, something that could actually stop

:47:31.:47:33.

socialism being pursued in one country, and that was

:47:34.:47:36.

a big reason for hostility towards it on the left of the political

:47:37.:47:40.

Some trade unionists here still feel that way, though.

:47:41.:47:47.

This is a meeting of Left Exit which is

:47:48.:47:49.

Unite are in favour of staying in the European

:47:50.:47:54.

I think the European Union is increasingly fascist in the way it

:47:55.:47:59.

overrides national governments, look what happened in Greece.

:48:00.:48:03.

I want more immigration, I want more solidarity

:48:04.:48:05.

and I don't think that the borders of Europe were made to help ordinary

:48:06.:48:09.

people, they were made to help the bosses.

:48:10.:48:13.

This campaign is supported by the RMT, ASLEF and the Baker's

:48:14.:48:16.

Union fancy the idea of a Lexit, too.

:48:17.:48:21.

And remember TUSC, the trade union and socialist coalition which

:48:22.:48:23.

They are on the Leave side as well, and even applied to become

:48:24.:48:30.

And Dave Nellist who you saw at the end of that piece joins

:48:31.:48:39.

Why are you campaigning to leave? The European Union is set up

:48:40.:48:53.

essentially for big companies. Its stature is on a continental scale,

:48:54.:48:57.

it promotes privatisation, we've stature is on a continental scale,

:48:58.:49:01.

seen postal services, water, electricity, rail, other forms of

:49:02.:49:06.

transport go. Increasingly, in its court of Justice ruling is it

:49:07.:49:11.

undermines trade union collective-bargaining and right to

:49:12.:49:14.

strike. I think all socialists should vote no on 23rd June. We

:49:15.:49:23.

think Brexit would be a big gamble with jobs, rights and people's

:49:24.:49:29.

livelihoods as well. Look at some of our best organised manufacturing

:49:30.:49:34.

companies, automotive, chemicals, a whole range of companies who

:49:35.:49:39.

critically depend on investment because we are a member of the EU.

:49:40.:49:44.

If we come out, we know what will happen in respect of those

:49:45.:49:49.

investment decisions. We will see good jobs replaced by worse ones,

:49:50.:49:51.

investment decisions. We will see assuming we hold onto them. There is

:49:52.:49:56.

investment decisions. We will see a big issue over workers

:49:57.:49:57.

investment decisions. We will see live in the here and

:49:58.:50:02.

investment decisions. We will see rights, holiday pay,

:50:03.:50:08.

investment decisions. We will see rights are dependent on membership

:50:09.:50:11.

of the EU. Do you trust this government

:50:12.:50:17.

of the EU. Do you trust this unions to protect those rights? The

:50:18.:50:17.

OECD, unions to protect those rights? The

:50:18.:50:21.

planet have a unions to protect those rights? The

:50:22.:50:23.

index. The UK is 31st out of 34. unions to protect those rights? The

:50:24.:50:31.

came long before the EU. I would Francis

:50:32.:50:43.

came long before the EU. I would say, 28 of the heads of government

:50:44.:50:53.

make the policies in the UU, most of them are conservative and favour

:50:54.:50:54.

austerity. I don't think we them are conservative and favour

:50:55.:50:58.

put our faith in Tory governments in Europe. It is true to say that much

:50:59.:51:02.

employment Europe. It is true to say that much

:51:03.:51:08.

originated here. Most of the important ones are. Take

:51:09.:51:20.

originated here. Most of the Dave said, was done before the EU.

:51:21.:51:24.

originated here. Most of the the EU. It has helped millions of

:51:25.:51:28.

women the EU. It has helped millions of

:51:29.:51:34.

about austerity? Take the the EU. It has helped millions of

:51:35.:51:37.

Greece. Do you think they were treated fairly? Absolutely not. We

:51:38.:51:46.

don't think the EU is perfect. As a trade union movement, we have a

:51:47.:51:49.

responsibility to figure out what's in the best interests of workers.

:51:50.:51:54.

We've worked hard on this, looking at the evidence and our guidance to

:51:55.:51:58.

workers is, don't gamble with your jobs, don't gamble with your right,

:51:59.:52:05.

vote to remain. Even Yanis Varoufakis is backing the UK to stay

:52:06.:52:13.

in. Not that he has got a vote. All sorts of people are backing people

:52:14.:52:18.

to stay in but they tend not to be friends of working people. Look at

:52:19.:52:22.

the direction Europe is travelling in. Particularly on legislation, the

:52:23.:52:27.

undermining of collective bargaining. Look at Rotherham, a

:52:28.:52:33.

Croatian company brought in construction workers on half the

:52:34.:52:36.

European Union rate and were forcing down wages. That is the way that the

:52:37.:52:41.

European Union is going. We need strong unions to fight that. Giving

:52:42.:52:49.

them a vote of confidence on June the 23rd is not doing that. Workers

:52:50.:52:54.

have two combine a cross borders. That is the only way we will get a

:52:55.:52:56.

fairer deal. Thank you very much. Now, earlier we talked about

:52:57.:53:00.

the content of the Queen's Speech, No, not the ermine or

:53:01.:53:02.

the horse-drawn carriage, but the two Commons speeches that

:53:03.:53:07.

are supposed to be funny - or at least, funnier than the one

:53:08.:53:10.

delivered by Her Majesty. Traditionally two backbench MPs

:53:11.:53:12.

are chosen to open the debate in the lower chamber

:53:13.:53:19.

with an amusing speech, with the Prime Minister and Leader

:53:20.:53:22.

of the Opposition expected One of the backbenchers

:53:23.:53:25.

was Conservative MP Phillip Lee. Here's a flavour of

:53:26.:53:30.

yesterday's action - including Jeremy Corbyn channelling

:53:31.:53:34.

the captain of Dr Lee's As the house knows, I am

:53:35.:53:37.

a practising doctor. Unfortunately, Mr Speaker,

:53:38.:53:49.

in a medical context, PR does not stand for public relations,

:53:50.:53:53.

but is shorthand for the type of examination that involves putting

:53:54.:53:57.

on rubber gloves, applying gel, and If I may give my right honourable

:53:58.:54:02.

friend the Prime Minister If in the future he finds himself

:54:03.:54:23.

speaking at a medical professional dinner, under no circumstances

:54:24.:54:34.

should he tell the audience that in his life before politics,

:54:35.:54:38.

he was into PR and that he found the work

:54:39.:54:43.

very stimulating. As captain of the Old Grumblers'

:54:44.:54:50.

Cricket Club, I rarely had to handle as obstinate

:54:51.:54:53.

and disruptive a character Who stubbornly refused to stand

:54:54.:54:56.

in any conventional field placement and very openly demonstrated

:54:57.:55:07.

a disdain for team sports, command structures, and presumably

:55:08.:55:13.

this led him to the logical career He is also, I am told,

:55:14.:55:16.

an ardent fan of Queens Park Rangers,

:55:17.:55:26.

but we won't say too much about that because at least one of my teams

:55:27.:55:29.

is joining him Chuckles all round. Philip Lee joins

:55:30.:55:47.

us from Central Lobby. Patrick Kidd is with is in the studio. Were you

:55:48.:55:54.

nervous? How long did you spend writing this? Where did you get the

:55:55.:56:00.

joke? It all came from my office. It was an internal job. I was nervous.

:56:01.:56:05.

I had been in my sick bed for a few days so I was happy that it went OK,

:56:06.:56:11.

considering. Were you happy with the reaction of Jeremy Corbyn and Mr

:56:12.:56:17.

Cameron? I knew where that was coming from. The current captain of

:56:18.:56:21.

the team is from Islington and Highbury. I guessed it was going to

:56:22.:56:25.

be tough on me but it was good humoured. How did it compared to

:56:26.:56:32.

similar occasions? I thought it was very good. It is daunting to get up

:56:33.:56:37.

and make those jokes. There was one about the Sutra.

:56:38.:56:49.

Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have a reputation for mirth and he was very

:56:50.:57:02.

funny. It's a shame he spoke at an extra 35 winners. There were good

:57:03.:57:08.

jokes all round. Who writes the jokes in your speeches? There are

:57:09.:57:18.

not necessarily lots of them but they are really good quality. Philip

:57:19.:57:24.

Lee, did you get a good reaction afterwards? I really did. I had

:57:25.:57:28.

people hugging me which was disconcerting. And they were just

:57:29.:57:35.

Tories! I had a good response from both sides of the house and I was

:57:36.:57:38.

glad to make people laugh but I said some serious things as well and it

:57:39.:57:42.

was good to get that over as well. Is this good for an MP's career to

:57:43.:57:48.

get noticed? You've been in the house for five years and you made a

:57:49.:57:53.

really big mark. I'm not sure. About five of the people who have seconded

:57:54.:57:58.

the speech over seven years are no longer members of Parliament. So,

:57:59.:58:03.

who knows? This might be the last time we see you! Well, it's been

:58:04.:58:11.

nice having you on the programme. We may not see you ever again. Thank

:58:12.:58:14.

you. Just time to get the answer to the

:58:15.:58:37.

quiz. I'd get one direction. I think you'll find it's Ross Jones, the

:58:38.:58:41.

mayor. Interestingly, Ed Miliband has slipped to number 40. There you

:58:42.:58:47.

go, the power list in Doncaster. That's it. Back tonight on BBC One

:58:48.:58:54.

with this week after question Time. Here tomorrow on BBC Two at noon.

:58:55.:58:57.

Try to join us. Goodbye. Soak up the atmosphere at the most

:58:58.:59:02.

famous flower show in the world. from the RHS Chelsea Flower Show

:59:03.:59:07.

2016. You look lovely, Mum.

:59:08.:59:21.

Go on, do a twirl.

:59:22.:59:24.

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