Browse content similar to 20/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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With one month to go until the EU referendum, immigration is, | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
alongside the economy, one of the key issues likely | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
It's a subject that's got one Labour MP into trouble after she was caught | :00:45. | :00:53. | |
on microphone branding a voter as a "horrible racist" for calling | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
We'll be talking about that and the numbers behind | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
the immigration debate, and asking what if anything either | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
side of this referendum debate thinks should be done. | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
Protestors against the US-EU trade deal have a new ally, | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
as Conservative rebels join with Labour to force the government | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
And plans for Britain's first sub-orbital spaceport have grabbed | :01:16. | :01:24. | |
a lot of attention this week but is space tourism really | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
And with us for the whole of the programme today two | :01:32. | :01:41. | |
journalists who have just this moment docked at our sub-orbital | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
You could call them a pair of space cadets. | :01:44. | :01:52. | |
It's Harry Cole from the Sun and Zoe Williams from the Guardian. | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
First today, being caught by the microphones making | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
an unguarded comment is an occupational hazard | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
for the modern politician, particularly during | :02:04. | :02:04. | |
Labour's shadow Europe Minister Pat Glass is the latest | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
She's on several front pages this morning after she branded a voter | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
in Derbyshire a "horrible racist" for criticising a local Polish | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
She had to apologise for the remarks at the end of a BBC radio interview | :02:18. | :02:30. | |
in which she declared she was "never coming back to wherever this is". | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
Not every region in the UK gains out of the European Union, | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
It gets more money out than it puts in and I think that money well spent | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
The very first person I come to is a horrible racist. | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
I'm never coming back to wherever this is. | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
That was the shadow Europe Minister Pat Glass. | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
Last time I looked, she still is the shadow Europe minister. | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
She said afterwards that her comments had been inappropriate | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
She apologised for any offence caused and said concerns about | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Who thought it? This suggests that Labour shadow ministers are not just | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
out of touch, with traditional Labour voters, they held them in | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
contempt. No, there's useful journalism to be done here if | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
anybody wanted to do it. Go to the Polish family and ask them if they | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
had ever met the guy who called them scroungers because if he doesn't | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
know what their financial situation is, he doesn't know that they are | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
scroungers and he is racist. Why does it make him racist? Because if | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
you assume some of claiming benefits because their Polish. That is what | :03:49. | :03:58. | |
racism is. No, it's not. The Polish are not a race. It is xenophobia. It | :03:59. | :04:07. | |
splitting hairs. No, it's not at all. You say it's a bigoted comment, | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
unfounded. It may be xenophobic. But I cannot see how it can be racist. | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
Frankly, the Labour Minister Pat Glass should've had some backbone | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
and said, I didn't mean racist, I meant xenophobic and bigoted. We | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
don't know what the guy said because he won't go on the record. He said | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
they were scroungers. Apparently. I think the most damning thing Pat | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
Glass said was I'm never coming back to this place. This was a Labour | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
seat in 2010, the sort of marginal Labour have to be winning if they | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
are ever to hold office again and for the shadow Europe minister to | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
call it, saying I never coming here again is disgusting. The mask slips. | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
Labour haven't issue with immigration. People don't think they | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
are treating the issue seriously. Give me a second. When you have an | :05:05. | :05:12. | |
unguarded comment like this, meant to be a private comment, it confirms | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
People's worst fears the party on taking it seriously. I think the | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
most damning thing she said was wherever I am, I'm not coming back | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
here. Whatever area it is. You ought to know where you are. You would | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
take more care if it's your area. Maybe if you were in Chipping | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
Salisbury. Morningside. Islington, Guardian and, wherever it is. I | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
don't disagree you should know where you are. And you shouldn't hold an | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
entire area like this. You shouldn't sneer at it like that. I wish | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
ministers would have some courage of their convictions. If you think | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
someone is xenophobic, bigoted, just say so, stop being so pathetic. It | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
might be that the man who made the remarks and the Labour politician, | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
neither of know the truth. About the Polish family. Exactly, no one knows | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
the truth but when you extrapolate someone's financial affairs from | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
their nationality, you don't know if it's your business. We don't know | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
that. OK, let's imagine nothing happened. It's good for Pat Glass | :06:21. | :06:30. | |
did not have this on film. You wouldn't have pictures of a | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
sneering. She realised how toxic figure was and shut it down in an | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
hour. That's the disaster of it, it's constant, "I'm so sorry" and I | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
don't think she should have apologised. She should've said he | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
was xenophobic. Emma Thornbury was different. Do you think Gordon Brown | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
should apologise? Some are making a decent complaint public services in | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
their area was under pressure. That was fine but make an apology because | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
you are genuinely sorry. Not because it got a gotcha moment. People who | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
say these things, whether they are generally informed or not, I'm not | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
complaining about the race or even the foreign nationality of the | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
people, it's usually the numbers. They are worried about the numbers. | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Because they get a lot of nonsense ramps down their throat. When where | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
you last in that place. That is sneering in itself. Why? They had | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
that rammed down their face, A waiting times. Let her finish. Thank | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
you. The guy said there was a particular problem with a particular | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
family. To say his real problem is the numbers, you are extrapolating | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
something else. No, I said people like him, there main problem is the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
numbers. When will you last in an area like that? | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
numbers. When will you last in an and down the country all the time. | :08:07. | :08:07. | |
If you speak to people, and down the country all the time. | :08:08. | :08:16. | |
numbers. I do. I do lots and lots of box pops. It's not the colourful | :08:17. | :08:18. | |
than in the early days of box pops. It's not the colourful | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
immigration in this country, there was clear racist antagonism, they | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
didn't like black people, Afro-Caribbean, they didn't like the | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
fact that they were Asian. This is a different nature. It may still be | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
wrong but it's different. There were loads of concerns which are fine but | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
to say that family are scroungers when you don't know whether they are | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
or not, is bigoted. Now, if he had said this is putting pressure on | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
public services, putting pressure on wages, I can't get a house, then | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
that would have been a completely different position. If all that was | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
true. OK. We have got off to a lively start. We thank Pat Glass. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
Normally we discuss something a lot more boring. | :09:07. | :09:07. | |
The question for today is about shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham, | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
who yesterday announced he is running to be Mayor | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
But what did he say people take the mickey out of him for? | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
B) Losing the labour leadership contest? | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
C) Because he said his favourite biscuit was beer, chips and gravy? | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
At the end of the show Harry and Zoe will give us the correct answer. | :09:30. | :09:40. | |
And you are allowed to collude. I bulleted forgotten it. So have I. | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
So we've talked about one politician getting into trouble over | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
immigration but let's talk now about the real substance | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
of what the polls say is, alongside the economy, | :09:53. | :09:54. | |
one of the biggest issues for voters trying to make their mind up ahead | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
of the EU referendum in a month's time. | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
And it's a debate which is defined by some big numbers. | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
The number of people migrating to the UK has been greater | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
than the number emigrating since 1994. | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
At the beginning of the 2000s EU net migration was below 10,000, | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
a small fraction of the overall annual net migration | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
After the accession of 10 countries to the EU, | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
including the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland in 2004, this | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
figure increased dramatically, rising to 87,000 in 2004. | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
The upward trend has continued ever since, | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
with EU net migration reaching 172,000 in the year | :10:40. | :10:41. | |
That's more than half of overall net migration, which was 323,000 | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
That's net migration, but the total number of EU nationals | :10:51. | :11:03. | |
coming into the UK only - so not accounting for those | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
who returned to the continent - was 257,000 in the year | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
Those are the official statistics, but others have proposed alternative | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
methods for calculating the number of EU nationals coming to Britain. | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
In the same period, for example, 655,000 applied | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
And separate figures on the UK workforce published earlier this | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
week show number of non-UK nationals from the EU working here in the past | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
year has risen by 224,000 to reached a record 2.15 million. | :11:38. | :11:50. | |
And I'm joined now by the Labour MP and Leave campaigner Frank Field. | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
And the deputy director of Britain Stronger In Europe, Lucy Thomas. | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
Welcome to both of you. Lucy Thomas, let me come to you first. Almost 2.2 | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
million non-EU UK nationals working in Britain and the speed at which | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
it's going up every year, is this a problem for your side of the | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
argument? I think the fact they are here and working in contributing | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
into the system and the fact that they paid over ?20 billion in taxes, | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
since coming here, I think that is a huge benefit to our economy, | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
actually, and I think being in the EU with access to the single market, | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
the world's largest, half of our exports go there, having that free | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
movement of people which comes alongside that, is a huge benefit. | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Overall, the free movement of people and almost 2.2 million EU nationals | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
working here is not a problem, a plus. It's an absolute plus and it | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
also means British people can work and travel and study and retire | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
across the rest of the EU, as well and there are roughly similar | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
numbers of British National is in the rest of the EU as there are EU | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
migrants. I'm not sure that's true because that was based... Just | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
checking the figures now. MOBILE PHONE RINGS | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
Phone it turned out that figure is not accurate. OK, they are broadly | :13:19. | :13:28. | |
in line. No, they're not, actually. That's the latest research I've | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
seen. BBC relative check on this is good. Frank, it's not a problem, | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
it's an asset getting these people, highly motivated, many of them | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
skilled. The don't have to pay for their education in a lot of cases. | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
The Spanish and the Italians are paid immediately benefit. Develop | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
them for two reasons. Despite the fun you had early on, one emerged. | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
All three of you thought the numbers were a problem. I think they are a | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
problem for two reasons. One is that we've never decided in this country | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
what we, as locals, should actually sign up to as citizens. We have had | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
no idea to ask newcomers what we expect of them, so huge numbers of | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
people have come and, instead of strengthening our culture, in some | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
key instances, have actually divided it and that's bad for a nation. | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
People coming from the EU? Where has that happened? Yes, you have a whole | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
range of religious, different histories, and... A lot of the | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
Polish Catholics. We are used to that in this country. Most of this | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
country aren't. The point I'm trying to make is there something about | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
common history and common memories which are important. Didn't we fight | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
the Second World War together? Polish pilots were a key factor in | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
winning the Battle of Britain. As well as the cricket test, we need | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
the Battle of Britain test when making these decisions. The second | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
issue is, the sheer weight of numbers which maybe I was wrong. You | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
all agreed on it. I didn't. I just ask the question. If you are like | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
the person in this imaginary country where the Labour spokesman didn't | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
know where she was, clearly there is real problems about competition for | :15:22. | :15:30. | |
jobs, housing, schools, health. It is that factor which actually has to | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
register. Let me go back to you, does it not | :15:33. | :15:42. | |
matter that there is any cap on the numbers? It is generally accepted | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
that the changes the Prime Minister made on in-work benefits would be | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
marginal to the pull factor. If that. But the huge rise, by British | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
standards, in the new national minimum wage will be a major pull | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
factor, and so more could come from Europe. Does that matter in your | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
mind, or is it Europe. Does that matter in your | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
continue to welcome? Well, I think we have got to look at what the | :16:08. | :16:08. | |
referendum we have got to look at what the | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
options are of leaving and remaining, and the fact that | :16:13. | :16:13. | |
leaving, all remaining, and the fact that | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
England, the Treasury, if you do what Frank's campaign wants us to | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
do, leave the single market, that leads to recession, they agree with | :16:25. | :16:25. | |
that. leads to recession, they agree with | :16:26. | :16:35. | |
ask you a simple question, which is, given the pull factors, and if the | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
eurozone continues to stagnate, the push factors, because a lot of the | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
new ones coming now are coming not from the Eastern European countries, | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
they are coming from Spain, Italy, France, Portugal, does that matter | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
that it could rise and that there is France, Portugal, does that matter | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
no cap on that? Well, limiting free movement means limiting your access | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
to the single market, so the two are intrinsically linked. That is your | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
choice. It is the price of being in the club. Eddies its billion pounds | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
a year our public finances the club. Eddies its billion pounds | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
hit. -- 30 ?6 billion. You don't believe that, do you? Tell me an | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
expert on their side of the argument! | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
expert on their side of the because there is no set of facts, | :17:25. | :17:26. | |
when we turn up because there is no set of facts, | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
we will make a decision from our guts about what we think is right | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
we will make a decision from our for Britain. The one thing we have | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
to be honest about is the outcome in, the real danger is what does it | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
figure in the rest of Europe? It is in our interests that we so approach | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
the renegotiations in a way that nobody feels that the whole place is | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
going to be turned over. We want successful negotiations, we want the | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
EU to be successful. Rather than say we are coming out, this is the | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
timetable, all of it. That is the danger on our side. Sticking with | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
immigration, if you came out, which I guess would give Britain control | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
over who would be coming from the EU or not - at the moment we | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
over who would be coming from the EU is one of the basic rules of | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
membership of the club - how strict would we be? I think we would | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
limited to the skills which we require. Otherwise they could not | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
come to work? Absolutely. That means limiting access to the single market | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
might your exports, your free trade, hitting jobs and prices. Because | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
everyone who has access, whether aren't they are members, has to have | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
pretty much free movement. Norway, Switzerland. Are you happy to access | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
that? I do not accept it. That is the rules of the club. Let him and | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
is a macro. The key fact is that nobody of our size as actually | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
thought about renegotiating. It will be a totally different dynamic. Why? | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
What is the incentive for those remaining countries to give us a | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
better deal? Can I just clarify... It is very difficult to have an | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
interview! I will ask you a question, you will be able to answer | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
it. Would it matter to you if the price of controlling the numbers who | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
can come from the EU was that we did not have our current access to the | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
single market? It would, but because they have a balance with us, we | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
trade less, there is a self interest aspect which would change the | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
dynamism. I'm not pretending it is going to be simple, I'm not saying | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
that any team we send out will be successful, we would want to send | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
the best team out to do the renegotiations. But we are not like | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
Switzerland, we are not like Norway, we are a different league. You know, | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
I just want to make this point again, Andrew, these are important | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
but secondary issues. When we negotiate, we have got to make sure | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
that the European Union does not actually unravel as a result of | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
this. Do you fear that it might? Wouldn't that be a reason for not | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
leaving? It could be, and that is why the negotiations are so | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
important, that what they want to arrange is up to them. As you know, | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
the Prime Minister only conceded a vote to us to keep his party | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
together. Many other countries, both as there would like a vote like we | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
have got. You think it could trigger it? I do, we need to be careful on | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
that. Let me bring back Lucy Tomlinson, many economists would | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
agree with you that the EU influx is overall good for the economy, it has | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
brought skills, people have done jobs that British people are not | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
prepared to do and so on. But it has undoubtedly put extra pressure on | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
housing, on schools, on hospitals, on social security, and the | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
politicians who have walked the walk on opening the doors have not talked | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
the talk when it has come to increasing public spending on this. | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
Isn't that a fair criticism? We can have all these people coming in, it | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
may be good for us, but we still struggle to build 120,000 houses a | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
year, we have been cutting education budgets, the NHS is now in a massive | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
budget deficit. We have not spent the money to accommodate the extra | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
people. Is that fair? I don't think it is, and what is the key point | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
about having strong public services, whether schools and hospitals that | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
you talk about, you need a strong economy. A ?36 billion hole in the | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
public finances will mean weaker hospitals, weaker schools, we get | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
public services as a whole. People already regard them as we go. They | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
would be worse outside. So let me get this right, you do not criticise | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
politicians for opening the door to these people, the number has gone up | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
by 1 million from the EU since 2010, but you do not criticise the | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
politicians for opening that door but not then spending the money to | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
increase public services to appreciate extra people? That is a | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
decision for governments to decide how they spend money, I am talking | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
about the benefits of being in versus the very big risks to the | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
economy of leaving. The fact that public services are stronger in, | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
whether it is the 100,000 EU migrants working in the NHS, across | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
health and social services, and that extra tax receipts from EU migrants, | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
?20 billion. It is up to the Government House disband that, but | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
the idea that a ?36 billion hole in your government is going to... Where | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
is this whole coming from? The Treasury report. The one that told | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
us what the economy would be like in 2030, although last November it | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
could not tell us about this year. Let's see who has backed up this | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
analysis, the IMF, the Bank of England... That is not true, the | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
Bank of England only did short-term forecasts, because that is the | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
monetary remit of the bank on this. If we were prepared to spend more | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
money on public services, given that there seems to be a general view | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
that people are a benefit coming to this country, wouldn't that be job | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
done? There is a dispute on the size of the benefit, because quite | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
properly people draw out. They are net contributors. Lucy, I did not | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
ignore you when you were ranting on. It wasn't a rant, it was an | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
interruption, but please continue. The House of Lords has made the most | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
serious study of this, they think it is a net gain but in pennies. People | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
come here and draw services. The key issue we were talking about, Andrew, | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
almost in the last session, was that if you don't have control of the | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
borders, you have got a government which has got a deficit, as Lucy | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
says, but we do not know whether it is going to be 3 million more people | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
we are budgeting for, or should be budgeting for, for housing, | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
education and health. I do not think you can run a country like this on | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
that basis. You and I have lived through a time when this economy, | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
this country was so on its knees that people were rushing for the | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
door, and people just wanted to leave and get out. Is it not much | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
better to be an economy where people are queueing up to camp in?! Even | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
better if you are queueing up to come in and you are choosing who | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
comes in. Quick response from you? I think this is radically unrealistic, | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
the truth is they are net contributors. I do not believe in | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
weighing people by how much they bring in take-out, it is not the way | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
to talk about people, whatever country they are a citizen of, but | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
if we are going to talk like that, they are net contributors. It will | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
not leave a big hole in the finances, it will plunge us into | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
recession, the pound will go through the fall, interest rates will soar, | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
a recession in no time. That is true. Under no study could you say | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
that Britain has control over immigration, and that is due to EU | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
membership. The elephant in the room is the control on other countries | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
around the world because of EU membership. This is not going to be | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
settled in six months' time, the referendum will not make these | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
problems go away. Even if we stay in, they are going to get worse. The | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
referendum is not the sticking plaster we think it is. Before we | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
move on, Frank, what is your reaction to Pat Glass's comments? If | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
I was mean minded, I would say brilliant, it will help the no vote. | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
The awful fact, though, is that this is not a crisis, a big question of | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
destiny for the country involving the future of the Labour Party, and | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
at the last election, because almost 1 million Labour voters felt that we | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
no longer talk on their behalf, went and devoted Ukip. My worry is that | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
this sort of campaign that is being run will mean another 1 million will | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
think, I am no longer a Labour voter, and I want people to go as | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
Labour voters, heads high into the ballot box, vote for Britain, bowled | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
for coming out, and not feel they are being disloyal. -- vote for | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
coming out. Now to the High Court where judges | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
have been hearing the latest stage in the legal battle for ex-pat | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
British citizens to have the right Around 800,000 expats | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
who are thought to live in Europe have not been granted the right | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
to vote on June 23rd because they've We can speak to to our correspondent | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
Sophie Long. She's outside the Royal Courts | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
of Justice in London. Sophie tell us, what is the judgment | :26:48. | :27:00. | |
we are waiting on today? It has already happened, Andrew, this case | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
was brought by two people who have lived outside the UK for more than | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
15 years. Now, one is now 95, he has been living in Italy since he | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
retired in the 1980s, the other lives in Belgium, a lawyer who has | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
lived there since 1987. They said they should have the right to vote | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
in the referendum because it directly impacts upon their lives, | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
and so last month they went to the High Court and applied for a | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
judicial review. That was rejected by judges at the High Court, they | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
appealed, and today their appeal against that was dismissed. Lord | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
appealed, and today their appeal Dyson, sitting in | :27:40. | :27:40. | |
appealed, and today their appeal Royal Courts of Justice here, said | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
the EU referendum act of 2015 does sit within EU law | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
the EU referendum act of 2015 does could not be seen as a restriction | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
on their rights to freedom of movement, which is what they argued. | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
Bielsa said that the 15 year rule was seen by judges as legitimate and | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
proportionate way of testing as it is an's strength of links to the UK. | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
-- he also said. Their application for a judicial review bailed, they | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
appealed, and now that has been dismissed. Will they have time to | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
take it further, to the Supreme Court in time for June 23? Yes, that | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
is exactly what they are going to do, neither were in court today, but | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
I spoke to their lawyer immediately afterwards, he said the fight is not | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
over, time is of the essence, of course, as you point out, the | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
referendum is on the 23rd of June, but he said they have secured a | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
hearing at the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, on | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
Tuesday of next week, where the lord justices will be asked to consider | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
whether, under the EU referendum act of 2015, up to two million people | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
are being unlawfully denied the right to vote on continued | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
membership of the EU. He says they will be asked to consider whether | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
the 15 year rule act as a penalty against British citizens for having | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
exercised their rights of freedom of movement. So I am also told that | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
Harry Schindler has been in personal contact with the Prime Minister, he | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
said today in a statement that he's still waiting for the Government to | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
tell us why British citizens in Europe cannot vote in the | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
referendum, that the Government had agreed to scrap the rule before the | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Referendum Bill was passed, agreeing it was arbitrary and under Macrider. | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
So the appeal today was dismissed, but their continues. -- | :29:25. | :29:25. | |
undemocratic. Let's hope we're all active at the | :29:26. | :29:35. | |
age of 95. Now let's talk about | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, | :29:41. | :29:42. | |
or TTIP as it's known. It's the big trade deal that's meant | :29:43. | :29:44. | |
to cut trade barriers between the EU and the United States in industries | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
including cars, energy, It's long been unpopular on parts | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
of the left here and around the EU, but yesterday 25 Tory Eurosceptics | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
joined forces with Labour and the SNP and threatened to force | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
a symbolic government defeat over They said the trade deal could lead | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
to parts of the NHS being broken up and privatised by American firms | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
in the courts. Here's the Tory backbencher | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
William Wragg outlining his concerns The Transatlantic Trade | :30:17. | :30:18. | |
and Investment Partnership, or TTIP, which the EU is determined to pass, | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
may potentially put the UK government and the NHS facing | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
a legal challenge from foreign corporations if we refuse to put | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
some of our public services, including the NHS, out | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
to tender for privatisation. TTIP could, in effect, | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
force a partial privatisation of the NHS and there could be | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
nothing for the UK government or, worse, the British people to do | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
about it if we were to stay a member We on these benches must not be | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
blind to this issue and leave it Well, perhaps in a sign of how keen | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
the Government is to avoid trouble in the run-up to the referendum, | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
Number 10 was quick to respond yesterday by saying they would | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
accept the amendment and in doing so avoid the first defeat | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
on a Queen's Speech vote Well, Frank Field is | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
still with us and he's And we're joined by Conservative MP | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
Robert Jenrick, who is chair Welcome to you. Frank, it's a | :31:17. | :31:31. | |
strange world when Peter Lilley the Tory MP is lauded into today's | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
morning Star editorial. He is the last cabinet member who's had to do | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
a trade deal so he may know a bit about it for that. This is when | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
Britain did its own trade deals. Yes, but the importance of it is, to | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
fold, really, we should welcome the Prime Minister's retreat because | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
this is the new politics. He can't get things to the House of Commons | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
as in the old days when there was safe majorities. It is easier when | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
the Lib Dems were onside, wasn't it? A lot easier. We know what happened | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
to them. What it will mean come at the end of the parliament, we won't | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
be able to say, you gave me this programme to implement but also gave | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
me the powers to stop implementing it so there are swings and | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
roundabouts but for democracy is good. It raises big question is not | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
just for the NHS but industry as a whole is what America wants to | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
construct in this dealer and I think it's somewhat sinister. What the | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
government right to back down on this? It's worth re-emphasising what | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
this deal means to the UK. There are 63% of imports and exports are done | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
either to the EU or the USA. The opportunity here if we could get | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
this deal over the line in the years to come is immense. For consumers, | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
British businesses, creating jobs. The official forecast is it would | :32:51. | :32:59. | |
add a 0.5% to the EU's GDP. That's a statistical error. The history of | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
bilateral treaties is a very good one. They've enabled us to do | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
business all over the world and it's important to say here the UK has | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
over 90 treaty is not dissimilar to those with other countries. I didn't | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
ask for a lecture on free trade but was the government right to back | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
down? It was a mistake to accept what is essentially scaremongering | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
and paranoia by a small group on the left and some conservative | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
colleagues. Is the NHS under no threat in your view as this trade | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
deal is currently construed? Insofar as we can tell since most of it is | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
taking place behind closed doors and was only thanks to a Greenpeace leak | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
of 245 pages, we began to get a flavour of what was involved. If | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
your position the NHS is under no threat at all? That's the methods | :33:52. | :33:59. | |
we've had so far. From? The cross-party group has looked into | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
this and concluded there is no threat to the NHS. They wrote to the | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
Commissioners and got a clear response back. The key point is the | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
UK has 97 similar treaties with countries all over the world, many, | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
if not most of them, have the same provisions as this one and we've | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
never had a problem. The UK Government has only been challenged | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
twice on this issue. It would involve, this one, a number of | :34:27. | :34:34. | |
things becoming justifiable. Meeting behind closed doors. That is not | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
correct. The EU commission has been very clear, they've written to both | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Parliament through the health select committee and the government, to say | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
state funded health care services are excluded. I wasn't talking about | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
that. I was saying in general, where there will be, if this TTIP goes | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
through, and we there will be, if this TTIP goes | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
reasons why it probably won't, if it was, any trade disputes, the | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
resolution mechanism involves specially set up courts which will | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
meet essentially privately. That's correct but this is nothing new. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
International arbitration has existed for 40 years. This will be | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
one of the larger courts. We had a similar deal with other developed | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
countries around the world, Hong Kong, Singapore, Israel, in the | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
health care world, very successful. The Israeli pharmaceutical industry | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
is one of the most successful in the world and we have never been | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
is one of the most successful in the successfully challenged. That is the | :35:45. | :35:46. | |
public health system. It's an industry. The public | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
public health system. It's an is excluded. The EU commission said | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
that. Let me put that to Frank. Celia Armstrong, the EU commissioner | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
that. Let me put that to Frank. looking into this, she has said the | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
effect of EU's approach to public health services will make no | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
difference whether a member state has already allowed some services to | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
be private providers or they can bring them back | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
be private providers or they can difference. Do you not accept that? | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
No. One issue is the business about there will be a tribunal system and | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
free trade is marvellous if you are the top dog. | :36:27. | :36:38. | |
free trade is marvellous if you are which you describe, which will be in | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
secret, binding, from which there will be no appeals, will determine | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
the outcome. The second issue is, clearly the NHS is in real problems, | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
it needs money, and a commitment of the electorate to fund that, but it | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
also needs reform. That reform programme shouldn't actually come as | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
a result of an arbitrary trade deal, but be something | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
a result of an arbitrary trade deal, NHS. Shouldn't we be a bit sceptical | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
here on these Tories who are now the big critics of TTIP? The traditional | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
criticism has come from the Green party, from the left, as well. And | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
from some others in Europe. But not from the Tories. This is playing a | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
Eurosceptic card, isn't it? It may well be that it is welcomed. If you | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
think the move is wrong, do you think other politicians should put | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
their sticky fingers into people's souls and say I think your motives | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
are not as pure as mine? The Prime Minister is on the run. I would | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
suggest it's almost entirely irrelevant, the TTIP deal will not | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
be done in time for the presidential election or the inauguration of the | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
new president. Donald Trump has already come out against it and | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
Hillary Clinton is against it because she had to see off Bernie | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
Sanders and in France, Germany, and Holland there is a massive head of | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
steam against it, so it's a kind of almost irrelevant argument. In the | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
coming months and years, this might be done and it's been going on for | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
years. The free-trade agreements the EU provides us with, is one of the | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
key reasons we have to say. We don't even have a trade deal. Barack Obama | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
says you have to go back to the queue. We don't have a trade deal | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
now is that point is silly. This shows how weak the Prime Minister | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
is. That he had to give in. Three weeks ago I was speaking to MP, a | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
moderate Eurosceptic, saying he was urging colleagues not to disrupt the | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
Queen's Speech because at the end of the day they got to put the party | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
back together after the referendum. He was on the list so that shows the | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
level of anger the Prime Minister has conducted himself in the last | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
three weeks. The reason a lot of governments are doing this is | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
because it's gone through, the trade agreement which comes through Canada | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
and that has many of the same provisions, namely covert courts | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
where courts can sue government in a way none of us will ever know | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
anything about. 80% of American companies have Canadian wings that | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
can do their trade through that anyway. The reason the Americans are | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
insisting on this is that they don't accept, they are worried about the | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
impartiality of a number of European court systems. They wouldn't have | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
that concern if this was purely an Anglo American trade deal. I don't | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
know. When you get any situation in which there is corporate | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
confidentiality on one side and public facing information on the | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
other... The Americans would allow the English common law to be in | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
these cases in a way they don't trust the course of... I would be | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
amazed about is true. Be amazed. It is true. Are you worried now the | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
error free trade which has dominated the global economy as an aim since | :40:13. | :40:23. | |
1944, around them, is now in retreat and it's partly in retreat, even on | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
the conservative wing of politics because there is quite a clear | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
correlation between the rise of globalisation and the blue-collar | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
classes? It's certainly a cause of concern to conservatives to see a | :40:43. | :40:44. | |
growing number of colleagues being willing to put them into an | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
amendment like the one we're going to happen next in Parliament. So you | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
are worried? These are people who are usually pro-free trade, if we | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
vote to leave the EU, would like is to go out into the world as a global | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
trading nation to find deals. Isn't it because the losers of free trade | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
are now having their say? There's also a lot of misinformation and | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
that is why it's important for politicians to communicate the | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
benefits and drawbacks of doing this. It is surprising that, in | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
Parliament, very few people seem to appreciate that exactly the | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
provisions we been talking about today have existed in 90 plus | :41:24. | :41:25. | |
investment treaties for almost 40 years. All right, you've made that | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
point. We have got a lot to cover today. We need to move on but I | :41:34. | :41:34. | |
thank you both. Now it's time for the | :41:35. | :41:36. | |
latest in our both. I know Zoe and Harry will | :41:37. | :41:38. | |
be taking notes in case they one day reach | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
high office. Today it's one of the newest big | :41:44. | :41:45. | |
jobs in government - Could you make sure that the lights | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
stay on, that we all stay warm, and at the same time | :41:49. | :42:06. | |
cut carbon emissions? So, you want to be Secretary of | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
State for Energy and Climate Change. It's the department that | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
I particularly wanted to go to and the department that | :42:17. | :42:18. | |
I stayed in, even when, after David Laws' resignation | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
from the Treasury, I was offered the Chief Secretary job and a place | :42:22. | :42:23. | |
in the quad inevitably, and I said no to that, | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
I wanted to stay with Decc. There was a discussion | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
about carbon reporting, and I did point out to somebody that | :42:32. | :42:33. | |
James Murdoch had a more aggressive regulatory position on this issue | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
than the Government did. I said, "Look, come on, | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
James Murdoch is hardly I had a lot of arguments with | :42:42. | :42:43. | |
the Tories, particularly on my area. In many ways, it was the area | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
where we saw the most clashes. Jill Rutter is a former senior | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
civil servant and now She says the department is important | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
but it's the baby of Whitehall. Decc is the newest | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
government department - it was created to resolve a debate | :43:02. | :43:03. | |
that used to go on between So if you're going to be | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
a successful Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
you need to be able to maintain credibility with the Treasury, | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
who are very interested in energy policies, it's so key | :43:15. | :43:16. | |
to economic performance. You need to be able to deal with big | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
business, because we rely on the private sector to provide | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
all that energy infrastructure. That the same time, you need to keep | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
on board a bunch of very vociferous green stakeholders who are | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
determined to keep the Government to the climate change commitments | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
that were set out in Of course, in the early '80s | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
there was no Decc, and for both Environment Secretaries | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
and Energy Secretaries, Climate change, in my days | :43:42. | :43:42. | |
as the Secretary of State for the Environment, | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
was never the acute issue today, demanding huge subsidies of one | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
sort or another. Nobody ever mentioned climate | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
change, it wasn't an issue, and it has now moved from not | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
being an issue at all to becoming a mania, so that the climate change | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
tail is wagging the energy dog. But Chris Huhne, a coalition | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
Liberal Democrat Secretary of State, If I was to say there was one | :44:15. | :44:16. | |
enormous threat to humanity, not just do this country, | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
it is the fact that we are undergoing a period | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
of enormous climate change, and that is going to have tremendous | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
consequences for future generations unless we get a grip | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
on it very quickly. It fell to Ed Miliband as the first | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
Secretary of State for Decc to wed these competing ideas together | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
in a single department, and he knew the scale | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
of the challenge. I did slightly feel | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
that the people who worked in Energy felt that the people who were | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
from the Environment Department were a bunch of muesli-eating | :44:52. | :44:53. | |
sandal-wearers, and the people who'd come from the Environment part | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
of the forest thought the Energy people were a bunch of | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
petrol-headed sort of technocrats. And so there was definitely | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
a challenge of integration It's not that people | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
weren't committed, but they had their own fiefdoms, | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
they had their own way of doing things, | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
and there was a sort of sense... a sense of mutual suspicion | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
in a way. I was clashing with Eric Pickles, | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
I was clashing with Owen Paterson, I was clashing with | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
George Osborne, of course. because he did actually | :45:28. | :45:37. | |
believe in a lot of green stuff. My problem was he didn't stand up | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
to the Chancellor enough. For Ed Miliband, the problem | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
wasn't so much Chancellor of the time, Alistair Darling, | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
as the Treasury itself. The Treasury likes | :45:46. | :45:47. | |
to control things. You know, that is their | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
institutional role in Whitehall. And so at an institutional level, | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
there was a sense that, hang on a minute, | :45:57. | :45:58. | |
there's this new kid on the block, the department, they seem | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
to have a lot of control over some And it was | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
the cross-Whitehall battles that I used | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
to find most frustrating. But by the time Chris Huhne | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
arrived three years later, the department had begun | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
to find its feet. The curious thing about | :46:21. | :46:22. | |
the Department of Energy and Climate Change is that | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
it is very much rather like the Department | :46:27. | :46:28. | |
for International Development. It has a very, very clear remit, | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
a very clear aim, and a lot of the people who go and work for it | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
at civil service level, and one would hope also political level, | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
do so precisely because they do share those aims and they really | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
want to make them happen. if you have the support | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
of key people. I think the current Prime Minister, | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
actually, as Leader of the Opposition, | :46:51. | :46:52. | |
did help change the debate, The fact that he took a lead | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
on the climate change and green issues definitely | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
held us more to account. But I'm afraid the opposite is true, | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
which is the scepticism of George Osborne, the apparent | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
scepticism of George Osborne about this issue, him saying | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
we should not be a leader, "Why should we be | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
ahead of the pack?" You might say, as a Labour | :47:16. | :47:17. | |
politician, Ed Miliband would say that, but George Osborne's | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
coalition partners Cameron won't get rid of Decc, | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
because he still likes to think he is a green person, famed | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
for being the first Tory leader I think Decc will go overnight, | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
if I'm honest with you. So it would seem that the long view | :47:36. | :47:45. | |
of being Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
is not that clear. Either it will become | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
THE department of government, or it's possible that in the future | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
there won't even be one. Now, when it comes to | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
the referendum on EU membership, are you for Remain or for Leave? | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
Or are you perhaps still undecided? Well, according to the polls, | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
many of you aren't sure. But, more surprisingly, that's also | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
a view reflected among some MPs, who haven't yet come | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
out one way or another. As a public service, | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
we here at the Daily Politics have come up | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
with the very latest list of how many MPs are still | :48:29. | :48:29. | |
thinking about it. The Conservative Party is, | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
as you'll have worked out by now, having the biggest struggle | :48:33. | :48:34. | |
with this decision. And that's reflected | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
in the fact that there are still 26 undecided MPs, that's | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
8% of the parliamentary party. We've tried to get in touch | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
with them all, and ten have told us they will declare before the vote, | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
often saying they're waiting until they've finished holding | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
debates in their constituencies. The rest, 16 of them, | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
either said they won't be declaring their intention at all, | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
or they didn't return our calls. You know where we are | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
if you'd like to ring in. where the overwhelming majority | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
of MPs are for remain, there are just eight MPs | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
still to tell us how they'll vote. Of those, two have told us they'll | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
declare before the referendum, aren't playing their cards | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
close to their chest. The SNP, the Lib Dems, Plaid | :49:19. | :49:29. | |
and the other smaller parties have all declared | :49:30. | :49:31. | |
one way or another. Well, to discuss this, | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
we're joined by one Conservative MP He's James Heappey, | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
and he joins us from Bristol. Welcome to the programme. Now, I | :49:36. | :49:48. | |
understand you've made up your mind by Joe not going to tell us. I made | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
my mind of a couple of weeks ago. I was genuinely undecided, but the | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
great literary of being in Parliament as I get to walk through | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
the voting lobbies most evening with the entire cabinet, and the leading | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
campaigners on both sides of the debate, and it meant I was able to | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
answer some of the questions I had and come to my own conclusion. But | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
the reality is that, for my constituents, they don't have that | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
sort of access to those people, so I set myself to deliver the best | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
quality debate that I can within my constituency, and once those are | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
done, I will come clean on what I'm thinking. So you will tell us, | :50:25. | :50:32. | |
because the world is waiting for this, before the vote? Absolutely. I | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
think that people have a right to know how their MPs go to vote, it is | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
a referendum, my vote is no Leave with no more than any constituent, | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
but they may want to know how I will vote. -- my vote is worth no more. | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
Nobody likes the person who claims to have been supporting Leicester | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
City all season, so it is important to get my mark out before the vote. | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
Are you telling us that you support Leicester City in Bristol?! No, no, | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
nobody likes the supporters who say they have been supporting them all | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
along after they have won. Maybe people think you are suspicious, | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
waiting to see which way the wind blows. I am pretty clear on that, I | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
think my constituency and the south-west is a region is probably | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
leaning out, and one of the things that bothers me about the referendum | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
is that it is likely that there will be regions of the country that vote | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
one way when the country as a whole votes be another. It is likely there | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
will be a younger generation that bodes one way, and older that bodes | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
the other, and that creates a challenge, bringing everyone back | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
together afterwards. -- votes. How I vote is immaterial, this is about my | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
constituents. If I were to put ?1 a new voting to come out, I would | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
probably get it back, right? I'm not sure... It is a nice try! Have you | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
got a date when you will make your declaration? I can hardly wait(!) My | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
mum is very excited as well. She has been on the phone to me trying to | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
find out! The last of the debate I am doing is on the 16th of June, and | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
I intend to make it known locally, to the local papers at that point. I | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
am not sure that I will be having you and the BBC on my doorstep, | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
because as much as you flatter me, I am not sure it matters that much do | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
you! We were not going to spend as much to go to your doorstep, but if | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
you were passing the studio, we would have had you on. Don't go | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
away, that we find out what our guests think, is he doing the right | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
thing? It is absolutely bizarre, almost Reformation view of the lobby | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
that you get access to these amazing arguments by walking through | :52:52. | :52:53. | |
Westminster, where normal people could not possibly find out or read | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
internet! If it is used as a way of generating interest in the | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
constituency by engaging people in this way, we are all waiting to see | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
how the vote goes. The important thing is that the Prime Minister had | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
a number, he wanted to make sure that hard his party at least would | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
come out and stay in with him. I think he would have been baffled, | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
but the party is genuinely split, but he has got to the number now, | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
where are the party, more than half the party is with him. You think he | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
has halved the Parliamentary party now? I think he has, I do not know | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
what the bishop publicly declared number is. Only just, I think. James | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
who have been listening, regardless of what you want to happen, how do | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
you think the referendum is going to go on the 23rd? I suspect the | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
country will vote to remain. We will wait to hear from you, thank you for | :53:55. | :53:56. | |
joining us from Bristol. Now, one of the most | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
eye-catching announcements in Wednesday's Queen's Speech | :54:01. | :54:02. | |
was the news that the UK could get its first spaceport, | :54:03. | :54:04. | |
apparently as soon as 2018. That is a lot sooner than a third | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
runway! There are six sites | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
battling to get selected, with Newquay in Cornwall | :54:13. | :54:13. | |
said to be the frontrunner. Prestwick in Scotland is also in the | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
running. Well, as ever, the Daily Politics | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
is ahead of the curve on these things, and we covered the news | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
on Monday's programme. Let's have a listen | :54:23. | :54:24. | |
to Dr Robert Massey he didn't sound too impressed | :54:25. | :54:26. | |
by the idea. Is there a solid business case | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
for it? I think that's an open question, | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
actually. I mean, we put evidence | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
into the select committee's space and satellites policy | :54:35. | :54:36. | |
a couple of months ago, and we were a bit ambivalent | :54:37. | :54:38. | |
about going to operate on a solely | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
commercial basis, If you need, for example, | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
a booming space tourism industry to deliver that, | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
there isn't actually much of a space tourism industry | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
at all at the moment, except wealthy Americans | :54:51. | :54:52. | |
paying the Russians So that was the view | :54:53. | :54:53. | |
of the Royal Astronomical Society. we were contacted by | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
the Royal Aeronautical Society, that's the Royal | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
Aeronautical Society, who said the Royal | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
Astronmical Society had no idea what they were talking about, | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
and were "regrettably misleading" Well, to find out more about | :55:14. | :55:26. | |
this clash of the space experts, we're joined by Dr Malcolm Macdonald | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
from the Royal Aeronautical Society, So | :55:34. | :55:47. | |
Astronomical Society said? Well, I don't want to get into any sort of | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
slanging match... Too late for that! I think it is worth pointing out | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
there were a few technical errors, they said that being close to the | :55:57. | :55:58. | |
equator they said that being close to the | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
is not the case. They'll also said that there isn't a business case, or | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
the business case was not clear. There have been studies done to look | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
at the business case for a UK spaceport,, and it suggests 400 | :56:13. | :56:20. | |
would be a settled number, ?45 million per year for that spaceport. | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
It is not that there is a business case, not that it is not known, | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
studies have been done, numbers are available. At our society we have | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
been running a conference in February where we examined the | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
issues, we brought together regulators and legislators, we | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
looked that differ in size from across the UK, we brought together | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
spaceport operators from the USA, and a vehicle operators as well, to | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
explore the technologies, the legislative issues, and ultimately | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
the business case to see how we can learn from worldwide experience to | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
make the UK spaceport as good as it can possibly be. If it is to work in | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
this country, will it need government money? I don't think we | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
should expect any government money. I think you would expect the | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
Government to be doing more of a licensing approach, and indeed that | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
is what has been reported in the press, moving away from that to a | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
licensing process. I understand there were about eight possible | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
sites in the UK for this, is Newquay now the front runner, was Prestwick | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
in with a shout? There were eight sites, down selected to six. Of | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
those, perhaps four are the more serious. From that, it is really | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
difficult to make any comment. The conference we ran in February, it | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
was clear that some of the sites have an advantage over others, but | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
all of them have downsides and positives. Ultimately, if we are | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
moving towards licensing, we will probably see more than one in the | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
UK. There are ten within the USA. Would you like to send a fraternal | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
message to the Royal Ascot uncle society? No, I mean, I would | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
encourage all of the societies and professional bodies, everybody to | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
share the expertise that they have, but to make sure that it is backed | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
based. We will leave at there, thank you very much. That huge crane | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
behind you was the spaceport of its day, that used to load 30,000 cars a | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
year, sorry, steam engines. Before we go, the quiz, what was the | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
answer? And you're a member? What do people take the Micky Adams Andy | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
Burnham for? I think a lot of reasons, not least as eyelashes! And | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
his ability to stick to anything he says! But I think it was about being | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
from the North. All right, I have no idea what the answer is! That was | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
the right one! I will be back with the Sunday Politics on Sunday | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
morning, to join me then, please! Bye-bye. | :58:53. | :58:57. |