20/05/2016 Daily Politics


20/05/2016

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With one month to go until the EU referendum, immigration is,

:00:37.:00:42.

alongside the economy, one of the key issues likely

:00:43.:00:44.

It's a subject that's got one Labour MP into trouble after she was caught

:00:45.:00:53.

on microphone branding a voter as a "horrible racist" for calling

:00:54.:00:56.

We'll be talking about that and the numbers behind

:00:57.:01:02.

the immigration debate, and asking what if anything either

:01:03.:01:04.

side of this referendum debate thinks should be done.

:01:05.:01:09.

Protestors against the US-EU trade deal have a new ally,

:01:10.:01:12.

as Conservative rebels join with Labour to force the government

:01:13.:01:15.

And plans for Britain's first sub-orbital spaceport have grabbed

:01:16.:01:24.

a lot of attention this week but is space tourism really

:01:25.:01:31.

And with us for the whole of the programme today two

:01:32.:01:41.

journalists who have just this moment docked at our sub-orbital

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You could call them a pair of space cadets.

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It's Harry Cole from the Sun and Zoe Williams from the Guardian.

:01:53.:01:55.

First today, being caught by the microphones making

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an unguarded comment is an occupational hazard

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for the modern politician, particularly during

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Labour's shadow Europe Minister Pat Glass is the latest

:02:05.:02:09.

She's on several front pages this morning after she branded a voter

:02:10.:02:15.

in Derbyshire a "horrible racist" for criticising a local Polish

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She had to apologise for the remarks at the end of a BBC radio interview

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in which she declared she was "never coming back to wherever this is".

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Not every region in the UK gains out of the European Union,

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It gets more money out than it puts in and I think that money well spent

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The very first person I come to is a horrible racist.

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I'm never coming back to wherever this is.

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That was the shadow Europe Minister Pat Glass.

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Last time I looked, she still is the shadow Europe minister.

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She said afterwards that her comments had been inappropriate

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She apologised for any offence caused and said concerns about

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Who thought it? This suggests that Labour shadow ministers are not just

:03:16.:03:23.

out of touch, with traditional Labour voters, they held them in

:03:24.:03:28.

contempt. No, there's useful journalism to be done here if

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anybody wanted to do it. Go to the Polish family and ask them if they

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had ever met the guy who called them scroungers because if he doesn't

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know what their financial situation is, he doesn't know that they are

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scroungers and he is racist. Why does it make him racist? Because if

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you assume some of claiming benefits because their Polish. That is what

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racism is. No, it's not. The Polish are not a race. It is xenophobia. It

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splitting hairs. No, it's not at all. You say it's a bigoted comment,

:04:08.:04:13.

unfounded. It may be xenophobic. But I cannot see how it can be racist.

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Frankly, the Labour Minister Pat Glass should've had some backbone

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and said, I didn't mean racist, I meant xenophobic and bigoted. We

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don't know what the guy said because he won't go on the record. He said

:04:29.:04:35.

they were scroungers. Apparently. I think the most damning thing Pat

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Glass said was I'm never coming back to this place. This was a Labour

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seat in 2010, the sort of marginal Labour have to be winning if they

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are ever to hold office again and for the shadow Europe minister to

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call it, saying I never coming here again is disgusting. The mask slips.

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Labour haven't issue with immigration. People don't think they

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are treating the issue seriously. Give me a second. When you have an

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unguarded comment like this, meant to be a private comment, it confirms

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People's worst fears the party on taking it seriously. I think the

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most damning thing she said was wherever I am, I'm not coming back

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here. Whatever area it is. You ought to know where you are. You would

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take more care if it's your area. Maybe if you were in Chipping

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Salisbury. Morningside. Islington, Guardian and, wherever it is. I

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don't disagree you should know where you are. And you shouldn't hold an

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entire area like this. You shouldn't sneer at it like that. I wish

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ministers would have some courage of their convictions. If you think

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someone is xenophobic, bigoted, just say so, stop being so pathetic. It

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might be that the man who made the remarks and the Labour politician,

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neither of know the truth. About the Polish family. Exactly, no one knows

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the truth but when you extrapolate someone's financial affairs from

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their nationality, you don't know if it's your business. We don't know

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that. OK, let's imagine nothing happened. It's good for Pat Glass

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did not have this on film. You wouldn't have pictures of a

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sneering. She realised how toxic figure was and shut it down in an

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hour. That's the disaster of it, it's constant, "I'm so sorry" and I

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don't think she should have apologised. She should've said he

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was xenophobic. Emma Thornbury was different. Do you think Gordon Brown

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should apologise? Some are making a decent complaint public services in

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their area was under pressure. That was fine but make an apology because

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you are genuinely sorry. Not because it got a gotcha moment. People who

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say these things, whether they are generally informed or not, I'm not

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complaining about the race or even the foreign nationality of the

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people, it's usually the numbers. They are worried about the numbers.

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Because they get a lot of nonsense ramps down their throat. When where

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you last in that place. That is sneering in itself. Why? They had

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that rammed down their face, A waiting times. Let her finish. Thank

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you. The guy said there was a particular problem with a particular

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family. To say his real problem is the numbers, you are extrapolating

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something else. No, I said people like him, there main problem is the

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numbers. When will you last in an area like that?

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numbers. When will you last in an and down the country all the time.

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If you speak to people, and down the country all the time.

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numbers. I do. I do lots and lots of box pops. It's not the colourful

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than in the early days of box pops. It's not the colourful

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immigration in this country, there was clear racist antagonism, they

:08:23.:08:26.

didn't like black people, Afro-Caribbean, they didn't like the

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fact that they were Asian. This is a different nature. It may still be

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wrong but it's different. There were loads of concerns which are fine but

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to say that family are scroungers when you don't know whether they are

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or not, is bigoted. Now, if he had said this is putting pressure on

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public services, putting pressure on wages, I can't get a house, then

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that would have been a completely different position. If all that was

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true. OK. We have got off to a lively start. We thank Pat Glass.

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Normally we discuss something a lot more boring.

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The question for today is about shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham,

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who yesterday announced he is running to be Mayor

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But what did he say people take the mickey out of him for?

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B) Losing the labour leadership contest?

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C) Because he said his favourite biscuit was beer, chips and gravy?

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At the end of the show Harry and Zoe will give us the correct answer.

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And you are allowed to collude. I bulleted forgotten it. So have I.

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So we've talked about one politician getting into trouble over

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immigration but let's talk now about the real substance

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of what the polls say is, alongside the economy,

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one of the biggest issues for voters trying to make their mind up ahead

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of the EU referendum in a month's time.

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And it's a debate which is defined by some big numbers.

:10:00.:10:02.

The number of people migrating to the UK has been greater

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than the number emigrating since 1994.

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At the beginning of the 2000s EU net migration was below 10,000,

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a small fraction of the overall annual net migration

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After the accession of 10 countries to the EU,

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including the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland in 2004, this

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figure increased dramatically, rising to 87,000 in 2004.

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The upward trend has continued ever since,

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with EU net migration reaching 172,000 in the year

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That's more than half of overall net migration, which was 323,000

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That's net migration, but the total number of EU nationals

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coming into the UK only - so not accounting for those

:11:04.:11:08.

who returned to the continent - was 257,000 in the year

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Those are the official statistics, but others have proposed alternative

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methods for calculating the number of EU nationals coming to Britain.

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In the same period, for example, 655,000 applied

:11:25.:11:28.

And separate figures on the UK workforce published earlier this

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week show number of non-UK nationals from the EU working here in the past

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year has risen by 224,000 to reached a record 2.15 million.

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And I'm joined now by the Labour MP and Leave campaigner Frank Field.

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And the deputy director of Britain Stronger In Europe, Lucy Thomas.

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Welcome to both of you. Lucy Thomas, let me come to you first. Almost 2.2

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million non-EU UK nationals working in Britain and the speed at which

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it's going up every year, is this a problem for your side of the

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argument? I think the fact they are here and working in contributing

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into the system and the fact that they paid over ?20 billion in taxes,

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since coming here, I think that is a huge benefit to our economy,

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actually, and I think being in the EU with access to the single market,

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the world's largest, half of our exports go there, having that free

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movement of people which comes alongside that, is a huge benefit.

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Overall, the free movement of people and almost 2.2 million EU nationals

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working here is not a problem, a plus. It's an absolute plus and it

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also means British people can work and travel and study and retire

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across the rest of the EU, as well and there are roughly similar

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numbers of British National is in the rest of the EU as there are EU

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migrants. I'm not sure that's true because that was based... Just

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checking the figures now. MOBILE PHONE RINGS

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Phone it turned out that figure is not accurate. OK, they are broadly

:13:19.:13:28.

in line. No, they're not, actually. That's the latest research I've

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seen. BBC relative check on this is good. Frank, it's not a problem,

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it's an asset getting these people, highly motivated, many of them

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skilled. The don't have to pay for their education in a lot of cases.

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The Spanish and the Italians are paid immediately benefit. Develop

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them for two reasons. Despite the fun you had early on, one emerged.

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All three of you thought the numbers were a problem. I think they are a

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problem for two reasons. One is that we've never decided in this country

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what we, as locals, should actually sign up to as citizens. We have had

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no idea to ask newcomers what we expect of them, so huge numbers of

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people have come and, instead of strengthening our culture, in some

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key instances, have actually divided it and that's bad for a nation.

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People coming from the EU? Where has that happened? Yes, you have a whole

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range of religious, different histories, and... A lot of the

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Polish Catholics. We are used to that in this country. Most of this

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country aren't. The point I'm trying to make is there something about

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common history and common memories which are important. Didn't we fight

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the Second World War together? Polish pilots were a key factor in

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winning the Battle of Britain. As well as the cricket test, we need

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the Battle of Britain test when making these decisions. The second

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issue is, the sheer weight of numbers which maybe I was wrong. You

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all agreed on it. I didn't. I just ask the question. If you are like

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the person in this imaginary country where the Labour spokesman didn't

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know where she was, clearly there is real problems about competition for

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jobs, housing, schools, health. It is that factor which actually has to

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register. Let me go back to you, does it not

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matter that there is any cap on the numbers? It is generally accepted

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that the changes the Prime Minister made on in-work benefits would be

:15:48.:15:51.

marginal to the pull factor. If that. But the huge rise, by British

:15:52.:15:56.

standards, in the new national minimum wage will be a major pull

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factor, and so more could come from Europe. Does that matter in your

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mind, or is it Europe. Does that matter in your

:16:04.:16:07.

continue to welcome? Well, I think we have got to look at what the

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referendum we have got to look at what the

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options are of leaving and remaining, and the fact that

:16:13.:16:13.

leaving, all remaining, and the fact that

:16:14.:16:19.

England, the Treasury, if you do what Frank's campaign wants us to

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do, leave the single market, that leads to recession, they agree with

:16:25.:16:25.

that. leads to recession, they agree with

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ask you a simple question, which is, given the pull factors, and if the

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eurozone continues to stagnate, the push factors, because a lot of the

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new ones coming now are coming not from the Eastern European countries,

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they are coming from Spain, Italy, France, Portugal, does that matter

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that it could rise and that there is France, Portugal, does that matter

:16:52.:16:56.

no cap on that? Well, limiting free movement means limiting your access

:16:57.:17:00.

to the single market, so the two are intrinsically linked. That is your

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choice. It is the price of being in the club. Eddies its billion pounds

:17:05.:17:08.

a year our public finances the club. Eddies its billion pounds

:17:09.:17:14.

hit. -- 30 ?6 billion. You don't believe that, do you? Tell me an

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expert on their side of the argument!

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expert on their side of the because there is no set of facts,

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when we turn up because there is no set of facts,

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we will make a decision from our guts about what we think is right

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we will make a decision from our for Britain. The one thing we have

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to be honest about is the outcome in, the real danger is what does it

:17:39.:17:42.

figure in the rest of Europe? It is in our interests that we so approach

:17:43.:17:48.

the renegotiations in a way that nobody feels that the whole place is

:17:49.:17:52.

going to be turned over. We want successful negotiations, we want the

:17:53.:17:57.

EU to be successful. Rather than say we are coming out, this is the

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timetable, all of it. That is the danger on our side. Sticking with

:18:02.:18:07.

immigration, if you came out, which I guess would give Britain control

:18:08.:18:15.

over who would be coming from the EU or not - at the moment we

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over who would be coming from the EU is one of the basic rules of

:18:19.:18:21.

membership of the club - how strict would we be? I think we would

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limited to the skills which we require. Otherwise they could not

:18:27.:18:31.

come to work? Absolutely. That means limiting access to the single market

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might your exports, your free trade, hitting jobs and prices. Because

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everyone who has access, whether aren't they are members, has to have

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pretty much free movement. Norway, Switzerland. Are you happy to access

:18:45.:18:50.

that? I do not accept it. That is the rules of the club. Let him and

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is a macro. The key fact is that nobody of our size as actually

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thought about renegotiating. It will be a totally different dynamic. Why?

:19:04.:19:07.

What is the incentive for those remaining countries to give us a

:19:08.:19:12.

better deal? Can I just clarify... It is very difficult to have an

:19:13.:19:17.

interview! I will ask you a question, you will be able to answer

:19:18.:19:22.

it. Would it matter to you if the price of controlling the numbers who

:19:23.:19:26.

can come from the EU was that we did not have our current access to the

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single market? It would, but because they have a balance with us, we

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trade less, there is a self interest aspect which would change the

:19:40.:19:43.

dynamism. I'm not pretending it is going to be simple, I'm not saying

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that any team we send out will be successful, we would want to send

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the best team out to do the renegotiations. But we are not like

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Switzerland, we are not like Norway, we are a different league. You know,

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I just want to make this point again, Andrew, these are important

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but secondary issues. When we negotiate, we have got to make sure

:20:05.:20:07.

that the European Union does not actually unravel as a result of

:20:08.:20:13.

this. Do you fear that it might? Wouldn't that be a reason for not

:20:14.:20:18.

leaving? It could be, and that is why the negotiations are so

:20:19.:20:22.

important, that what they want to arrange is up to them. As you know,

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the Prime Minister only conceded a vote to us to keep his party

:20:27.:20:31.

together. Many other countries, both as there would like a vote like we

:20:32.:20:35.

have got. You think it could trigger it? I do, we need to be careful on

:20:36.:20:43.

that. Let me bring back Lucy Tomlinson, many economists would

:20:44.:20:47.

agree with you that the EU influx is overall good for the economy, it has

:20:48.:20:51.

brought skills, people have done jobs that British people are not

:20:52.:20:57.

prepared to do and so on. But it has undoubtedly put extra pressure on

:20:58.:21:01.

housing, on schools, on hospitals, on social security, and the

:21:02.:21:05.

politicians who have walked the walk on opening the doors have not talked

:21:06.:21:08.

the talk when it has come to increasing public spending on this.

:21:09.:21:13.

Isn't that a fair criticism? We can have all these people coming in, it

:21:14.:21:17.

may be good for us, but we still struggle to build 120,000 houses a

:21:18.:21:22.

year, we have been cutting education budgets, the NHS is now in a massive

:21:23.:21:27.

budget deficit. We have not spent the money to accommodate the extra

:21:28.:21:31.

people. Is that fair? I don't think it is, and what is the key point

:21:32.:21:37.

about having strong public services, whether schools and hospitals that

:21:38.:21:41.

you talk about, you need a strong economy. A ?36 billion hole in the

:21:42.:21:46.

public finances will mean weaker hospitals, weaker schools, we get

:21:47.:21:51.

public services as a whole. People already regard them as we go. They

:21:52.:21:57.

would be worse outside. So let me get this right, you do not criticise

:21:58.:22:02.

politicians for opening the door to these people, the number has gone up

:22:03.:22:06.

by 1 million from the EU since 2010, but you do not criticise the

:22:07.:22:10.

politicians for opening that door but not then spending the money to

:22:11.:22:13.

increase public services to appreciate extra people? That is a

:22:14.:22:18.

decision for governments to decide how they spend money, I am talking

:22:19.:22:22.

about the benefits of being in versus the very big risks to the

:22:23.:22:25.

economy of leaving. The fact that public services are stronger in,

:22:26.:22:30.

whether it is the 100,000 EU migrants working in the NHS, across

:22:31.:22:35.

health and social services, and that extra tax receipts from EU migrants,

:22:36.:22:39.

?20 billion. It is up to the Government House disband that, but

:22:40.:22:45.

the idea that a ?36 billion hole in your government is going to... Where

:22:46.:22:49.

is this whole coming from? The Treasury report. The one that told

:22:50.:22:57.

us what the economy would be like in 2030, although last November it

:22:58.:23:01.

could not tell us about this year. Let's see who has backed up this

:23:02.:23:05.

analysis, the IMF, the Bank of England... That is not true, the

:23:06.:23:10.

Bank of England only did short-term forecasts, because that is the

:23:11.:23:15.

monetary remit of the bank on this. If we were prepared to spend more

:23:16.:23:20.

money on public services, given that there seems to be a general view

:23:21.:23:24.

that people are a benefit coming to this country, wouldn't that be job

:23:25.:23:28.

done? There is a dispute on the size of the benefit, because quite

:23:29.:23:34.

properly people draw out. They are net contributors. Lucy, I did not

:23:35.:23:38.

ignore you when you were ranting on. It wasn't a rant, it was an

:23:39.:23:43.

interruption, but please continue. The House of Lords has made the most

:23:44.:23:47.

serious study of this, they think it is a net gain but in pennies. People

:23:48.:23:52.

come here and draw services. The key issue we were talking about, Andrew,

:23:53.:23:56.

almost in the last session, was that if you don't have control of the

:23:57.:24:01.

borders, you have got a government which has got a deficit, as Lucy

:24:02.:24:05.

says, but we do not know whether it is going to be 3 million more people

:24:06.:24:09.

we are budgeting for, or should be budgeting for, for housing,

:24:10.:24:12.

education and health. I do not think you can run a country like this on

:24:13.:24:17.

that basis. You and I have lived through a time when this economy,

:24:18.:24:21.

this country was so on its knees that people were rushing for the

:24:22.:24:26.

door, and people just wanted to leave and get out. Is it not much

:24:27.:24:31.

better to be an economy where people are queueing up to camp in?! Even

:24:32.:24:35.

better if you are queueing up to come in and you are choosing who

:24:36.:24:41.

comes in. Quick response from you? I think this is radically unrealistic,

:24:42.:24:44.

the truth is they are net contributors. I do not believe in

:24:45.:24:48.

weighing people by how much they bring in take-out, it is not the way

:24:49.:24:51.

to talk about people, whatever country they are a citizen of, but

:24:52.:24:55.

if we are going to talk like that, they are net contributors. It will

:24:56.:25:00.

not leave a big hole in the finances, it will plunge us into

:25:01.:25:03.

recession, the pound will go through the fall, interest rates will soar,

:25:04.:25:07.

a recession in no time. That is true. Under no study could you say

:25:08.:25:12.

that Britain has control over immigration, and that is due to EU

:25:13.:25:16.

membership. The elephant in the room is the control on other countries

:25:17.:25:24.

around the world because of EU membership. This is not going to be

:25:25.:25:27.

settled in six months' time, the referendum will not make these

:25:28.:25:30.

problems go away. Even if we stay in, they are going to get worse. The

:25:31.:25:34.

referendum is not the sticking plaster we think it is. Before we

:25:35.:25:39.

move on, Frank, what is your reaction to Pat Glass's comments? If

:25:40.:25:44.

I was mean minded, I would say brilliant, it will help the no vote.

:25:45.:25:49.

The awful fact, though, is that this is not a crisis, a big question of

:25:50.:25:53.

destiny for the country involving the future of the Labour Party, and

:25:54.:25:58.

at the last election, because almost 1 million Labour voters felt that we

:25:59.:26:03.

no longer talk on their behalf, went and devoted Ukip. My worry is that

:26:04.:26:09.

this sort of campaign that is being run will mean another 1 million will

:26:10.:26:12.

think, I am no longer a Labour voter, and I want people to go as

:26:13.:26:19.

Labour voters, heads high into the ballot box, vote for Britain, bowled

:26:20.:26:23.

for coming out, and not feel they are being disloyal. -- vote for

:26:24.:26:28.

coming out. Now to the High Court where judges

:26:29.:26:30.

have been hearing the latest stage in the legal battle for ex-pat

:26:31.:26:33.

British citizens to have the right Around 800,000 expats

:26:34.:26:36.

who are thought to live in Europe have not been granted the right

:26:37.:26:40.

to vote on June 23rd because they've We can speak to to our correspondent

:26:41.:26:43.

Sophie Long. She's outside the Royal Courts

:26:44.:26:47.

of Justice in London. Sophie tell us, what is the judgment

:26:48.:27:00.

we are waiting on today? It has already happened, Andrew, this case

:27:01.:27:07.

was brought by two people who have lived outside the UK for more than

:27:08.:27:13.

15 years. Now, one is now 95, he has been living in Italy since he

:27:14.:27:16.

retired in the 1980s, the other lives in Belgium, a lawyer who has

:27:17.:27:20.

lived there since 1987. They said they should have the right to vote

:27:21.:27:24.

in the referendum because it directly impacts upon their lives,

:27:25.:27:27.

and so last month they went to the High Court and applied for a

:27:28.:27:31.

judicial review. That was rejected by judges at the High Court, they

:27:32.:27:34.

appealed, and today their appeal against that was dismissed. Lord

:27:35.:27:39.

appealed, and today their appeal Dyson, sitting in

:27:40.:27:40.

appealed, and today their appeal Royal Courts of Justice here, said

:27:41.:27:45.

the EU referendum act of 2015 does sit within EU law

:27:46.:27:49.

the EU referendum act of 2015 does could not be seen as a restriction

:27:50.:27:51.

on their rights to freedom of movement, which is what they argued.

:27:52.:27:54.

Bielsa said that the 15 year rule was seen by judges as legitimate and

:27:55.:27:59.

proportionate way of testing as it is an's strength of links to the UK.

:28:00.:28:04.

-- he also said. Their application for a judicial review bailed, they

:28:05.:28:08.

appealed, and now that has been dismissed. Will they have time to

:28:09.:28:12.

take it further, to the Supreme Court in time for June 23? Yes, that

:28:13.:28:19.

is exactly what they are going to do, neither were in court today, but

:28:20.:28:23.

I spoke to their lawyer immediately afterwards, he said the fight is not

:28:24.:28:27.

over, time is of the essence, of course, as you point out, the

:28:28.:28:31.

referendum is on the 23rd of June, but he said they have secured a

:28:32.:28:34.

hearing at the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, on

:28:35.:28:38.

Tuesday of next week, where the lord justices will be asked to consider

:28:39.:28:42.

whether, under the EU referendum act of 2015, up to two million people

:28:43.:28:47.

are being unlawfully denied the right to vote on continued

:28:48.:28:53.

membership of the EU. He says they will be asked to consider whether

:28:54.:28:57.

the 15 year rule act as a penalty against British citizens for having

:28:58.:29:00.

exercised their rights of freedom of movement. So I am also told that

:29:01.:29:05.

Harry Schindler has been in personal contact with the Prime Minister, he

:29:06.:29:08.

said today in a statement that he's still waiting for the Government to

:29:09.:29:12.

tell us why British citizens in Europe cannot vote in the

:29:13.:29:15.

referendum, that the Government had agreed to scrap the rule before the

:29:16.:29:19.

Referendum Bill was passed, agreeing it was arbitrary and under Macrider.

:29:20.:29:24.

So the appeal today was dismissed, but their continues. --

:29:25.:29:25.

undemocratic. Let's hope we're all active at the

:29:26.:29:35.

age of 95. Now let's talk about

:29:36.:29:40.

the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership,

:29:41.:29:42.

or TTIP as it's known. It's the big trade deal that's meant

:29:43.:29:44.

to cut trade barriers between the EU and the United States in industries

:29:45.:29:48.

including cars, energy, It's long been unpopular on parts

:29:49.:29:51.

of the left here and around the EU, but yesterday 25 Tory Eurosceptics

:29:52.:29:57.

joined forces with Labour and the SNP and threatened to force

:29:58.:30:02.

a symbolic government defeat over They said the trade deal could lead

:30:03.:30:05.

to parts of the NHS being broken up and privatised by American firms

:30:06.:30:12.

in the courts. Here's the Tory backbencher

:30:13.:30:16.

William Wragg outlining his concerns The Transatlantic Trade

:30:17.:30:18.

and Investment Partnership, or TTIP, which the EU is determined to pass,

:30:19.:30:25.

may potentially put the UK government and the NHS facing

:30:26.:30:28.

a legal challenge from foreign corporations if we refuse to put

:30:29.:30:31.

some of our public services, including the NHS, out

:30:32.:30:35.

to tender for privatisation. TTIP could, in effect,

:30:36.:30:39.

force a partial privatisation of the NHS and there could be

:30:40.:30:42.

nothing for the UK government or, worse, the British people to do

:30:43.:30:50.

about it if we were to stay a member We on these benches must not be

:30:51.:30:53.

blind to this issue and leave it Well, perhaps in a sign of how keen

:30:54.:30:58.

the Government is to avoid trouble in the run-up to the referendum,

:30:59.:31:03.

Number 10 was quick to respond yesterday by saying they would

:31:04.:31:06.

accept the amendment and in doing so avoid the first defeat

:31:07.:31:09.

on a Queen's Speech vote Well, Frank Field is

:31:10.:31:11.

still with us and he's And we're joined by Conservative MP

:31:12.:31:16.

Robert Jenrick, who is chair Welcome to you. Frank, it's a

:31:17.:31:31.

strange world when Peter Lilley the Tory MP is lauded into today's

:31:32.:31:35.

morning Star editorial. He is the last cabinet member who's had to do

:31:36.:31:39.

a trade deal so he may know a bit about it for that. This is when

:31:40.:31:44.

Britain did its own trade deals. Yes, but the importance of it is, to

:31:45.:31:50.

fold, really, we should welcome the Prime Minister's retreat because

:31:51.:31:53.

this is the new politics. He can't get things to the House of Commons

:31:54.:31:57.

as in the old days when there was safe majorities. It is easier when

:31:58.:32:04.

the Lib Dems were onside, wasn't it? A lot easier. We know what happened

:32:05.:32:08.

to them. What it will mean come at the end of the parliament, we won't

:32:09.:32:12.

be able to say, you gave me this programme to implement but also gave

:32:13.:32:16.

me the powers to stop implementing it so there are swings and

:32:17.:32:19.

roundabouts but for democracy is good. It raises big question is not

:32:20.:32:24.

just for the NHS but industry as a whole is what America wants to

:32:25.:32:27.

construct in this dealer and I think it's somewhat sinister. What the

:32:28.:32:31.

government right to back down on this? It's worth re-emphasising what

:32:32.:32:37.

this deal means to the UK. There are 63% of imports and exports are done

:32:38.:32:42.

either to the EU or the USA. The opportunity here if we could get

:32:43.:32:45.

this deal over the line in the years to come is immense. For consumers,

:32:46.:32:50.

British businesses, creating jobs. The official forecast is it would

:32:51.:32:59.

add a 0.5% to the EU's GDP. That's a statistical error. The history of

:33:00.:33:05.

bilateral treaties is a very good one. They've enabled us to do

:33:06.:33:08.

business all over the world and it's important to say here the UK has

:33:09.:33:13.

over 90 treaty is not dissimilar to those with other countries. I didn't

:33:14.:33:17.

ask for a lecture on free trade but was the government right to back

:33:18.:33:25.

down? It was a mistake to accept what is essentially scaremongering

:33:26.:33:27.

and paranoia by a small group on the left and some conservative

:33:28.:33:32.

colleagues. Is the NHS under no threat in your view as this trade

:33:33.:33:38.

deal is currently construed? Insofar as we can tell since most of it is

:33:39.:33:42.

taking place behind closed doors and was only thanks to a Greenpeace leak

:33:43.:33:48.

of 245 pages, we began to get a flavour of what was involved. If

:33:49.:33:51.

your position the NHS is under no threat at all? That's the methods

:33:52.:33:59.

we've had so far. From? The cross-party group has looked into

:34:00.:34:03.

this and concluded there is no threat to the NHS. They wrote to the

:34:04.:34:08.

Commissioners and got a clear response back. The key point is the

:34:09.:34:15.

UK has 97 similar treaties with countries all over the world, many,

:34:16.:34:19.

if not most of them, have the same provisions as this one and we've

:34:20.:34:23.

never had a problem. The UK Government has only been challenged

:34:24.:34:26.

twice on this issue. It would involve, this one, a number of

:34:27.:34:34.

things becoming justifiable. Meeting behind closed doors. That is not

:34:35.:34:40.

correct. The EU commission has been very clear, they've written to both

:34:41.:34:44.

Parliament through the health select committee and the government, to say

:34:45.:34:47.

state funded health care services are excluded. I wasn't talking about

:34:48.:34:55.

that. I was saying in general, where there will be, if this TTIP goes

:34:56.:34:58.

through, and we there will be, if this TTIP goes

:34:59.:35:03.

reasons why it probably won't, if it was, any trade disputes, the

:35:04.:35:07.

resolution mechanism involves specially set up courts which will

:35:08.:35:14.

meet essentially privately. That's correct but this is nothing new.

:35:15.:35:19.

International arbitration has existed for 40 years. This will be

:35:20.:35:26.

one of the larger courts. We had a similar deal with other developed

:35:27.:35:29.

countries around the world, Hong Kong, Singapore, Israel, in the

:35:30.:35:37.

health care world, very successful. The Israeli pharmaceutical industry

:35:38.:35:40.

is one of the most successful in the world and we have never been

:35:41.:35:44.

is one of the most successful in the successfully challenged. That is the

:35:45.:35:46.

public health system. It's an industry. The public

:35:47.:35:50.

public health system. It's an is excluded. The EU commission said

:35:51.:35:56.

that. Let me put that to Frank. Celia Armstrong, the EU commissioner

:35:57.:36:01.

that. Let me put that to Frank. looking into this, she has said the

:36:02.:36:04.

effect of EU's approach to public health services will make no

:36:05.:36:07.

difference whether a member state has already allowed some services to

:36:08.:36:11.

be private providers or they can bring them back

:36:12.:36:15.

be private providers or they can difference. Do you not accept that?

:36:16.:36:21.

No. One issue is the business about there will be a tribunal system and

:36:22.:36:26.

free trade is marvellous if you are the top dog.

:36:27.:36:38.

free trade is marvellous if you are which you describe, which will be in

:36:39.:36:43.

secret, binding, from which there will be no appeals, will determine

:36:44.:36:46.

the outcome. The second issue is, clearly the NHS is in real problems,

:36:47.:36:50.

it needs money, and a commitment of the electorate to fund that, but it

:36:51.:36:56.

also needs reform. That reform programme shouldn't actually come as

:36:57.:37:01.

a result of an arbitrary trade deal, but be something

:37:02.:37:07.

a result of an arbitrary trade deal, NHS. Shouldn't we be a bit sceptical

:37:08.:37:12.

here on these Tories who are now the big critics of TTIP? The traditional

:37:13.:37:15.

criticism has come from the Green party, from the left, as well. And

:37:16.:37:24.

from some others in Europe. But not from the Tories. This is playing a

:37:25.:37:31.

Eurosceptic card, isn't it? It may well be that it is welcomed. If you

:37:32.:37:38.

think the move is wrong, do you think other politicians should put

:37:39.:37:41.

their sticky fingers into people's souls and say I think your motives

:37:42.:37:46.

are not as pure as mine? The Prime Minister is on the run. I would

:37:47.:37:52.

suggest it's almost entirely irrelevant, the TTIP deal will not

:37:53.:37:57.

be done in time for the presidential election or the inauguration of the

:37:58.:38:02.

new president. Donald Trump has already come out against it and

:38:03.:38:05.

Hillary Clinton is against it because she had to see off Bernie

:38:06.:38:10.

Sanders and in France, Germany, and Holland there is a massive head of

:38:11.:38:15.

steam against it, so it's a kind of almost irrelevant argument. In the

:38:16.:38:19.

coming months and years, this might be done and it's been going on for

:38:20.:38:24.

years. The free-trade agreements the EU provides us with, is one of the

:38:25.:38:28.

key reasons we have to say. We don't even have a trade deal. Barack Obama

:38:29.:38:32.

says you have to go back to the queue. We don't have a trade deal

:38:33.:38:38.

now is that point is silly. This shows how weak the Prime Minister

:38:39.:38:43.

is. That he had to give in. Three weeks ago I was speaking to MP, a

:38:44.:38:49.

moderate Eurosceptic, saying he was urging colleagues not to disrupt the

:38:50.:38:54.

Queen's Speech because at the end of the day they got to put the party

:38:55.:38:57.

back together after the referendum. He was on the list so that shows the

:38:58.:39:01.

level of anger the Prime Minister has conducted himself in the last

:39:02.:39:05.

three weeks. The reason a lot of governments are doing this is

:39:06.:39:08.

because it's gone through, the trade agreement which comes through Canada

:39:09.:39:11.

and that has many of the same provisions, namely covert courts

:39:12.:39:18.

where courts can sue government in a way none of us will ever know

:39:19.:39:24.

anything about. 80% of American companies have Canadian wings that

:39:25.:39:27.

can do their trade through that anyway. The reason the Americans are

:39:28.:39:34.

insisting on this is that they don't accept, they are worried about the

:39:35.:39:37.

impartiality of a number of European court systems. They wouldn't have

:39:38.:39:42.

that concern if this was purely an Anglo American trade deal. I don't

:39:43.:39:49.

know. When you get any situation in which there is corporate

:39:50.:39:53.

confidentiality on one side and public facing information on the

:39:54.:39:56.

other... The Americans would allow the English common law to be in

:39:57.:40:02.

these cases in a way they don't trust the course of... I would be

:40:03.:40:07.

amazed about is true. Be amazed. It is true. Are you worried now the

:40:08.:40:12.

error free trade which has dominated the global economy as an aim since

:40:13.:40:23.

1944, around them, is now in retreat and it's partly in retreat, even on

:40:24.:40:28.

the conservative wing of politics because there is quite a clear

:40:29.:40:34.

correlation between the rise of globalisation and the blue-collar

:40:35.:40:42.

classes? It's certainly a cause of concern to conservatives to see a

:40:43.:40:44.

growing number of colleagues being willing to put them into an

:40:45.:40:47.

amendment like the one we're going to happen next in Parliament. So you

:40:48.:40:53.

are worried? These are people who are usually pro-free trade, if we

:40:54.:40:56.

vote to leave the EU, would like is to go out into the world as a global

:40:57.:41:00.

trading nation to find deals. Isn't it because the losers of free trade

:41:01.:41:07.

are now having their say? There's also a lot of misinformation and

:41:08.:41:11.

that is why it's important for politicians to communicate the

:41:12.:41:15.

benefits and drawbacks of doing this. It is surprising that, in

:41:16.:41:19.

Parliament, very few people seem to appreciate that exactly the

:41:20.:41:23.

provisions we been talking about today have existed in 90 plus

:41:24.:41:25.

investment treaties for almost 40 years. All right, you've made that

:41:26.:41:33.

point. We have got a lot to cover today. We need to move on but I

:41:34.:41:34.

thank you both. Now it's time for the

:41:35.:41:36.

latest in our both. I know Zoe and Harry will

:41:37.:41:38.

be taking notes in case they one day reach

:41:39.:41:43.

high office. Today it's one of the newest big

:41:44.:41:45.

jobs in government - Could you make sure that the lights

:41:46.:41:48.

stay on, that we all stay warm, and at the same time

:41:49.:42:06.

cut carbon emissions? So, you want to be Secretary of

:42:07.:42:10.

State for Energy and Climate Change. It's the department that

:42:11.:42:16.

I particularly wanted to go to and the department that

:42:17.:42:18.

I stayed in, even when, after David Laws' resignation

:42:19.:42:21.

from the Treasury, I was offered the Chief Secretary job and a place

:42:22.:42:23.

in the quad inevitably, and I said no to that,

:42:24.:42:26.

I wanted to stay with Decc. There was a discussion

:42:27.:42:31.

about carbon reporting, and I did point out to somebody that

:42:32.:42:33.

James Murdoch had a more aggressive regulatory position on this issue

:42:34.:42:38.

than the Government did. I said, "Look, come on,

:42:39.:42:41.

James Murdoch is hardly I had a lot of arguments with

:42:42.:42:43.

the Tories, particularly on my area. In many ways, it was the area

:42:44.:42:48.

where we saw the most clashes. Jill Rutter is a former senior

:42:49.:42:52.

civil servant and now She says the department is important

:42:53.:42:54.

but it's the baby of Whitehall. Decc is the newest

:42:55.:43:01.

government department - it was created to resolve a debate

:43:02.:43:03.

that used to go on between So if you're going to be

:43:04.:43:06.

a successful Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change,

:43:07.:43:10.

you need to be able to maintain credibility with the Treasury,

:43:11.:43:14.

who are very interested in energy policies, it's so key

:43:15.:43:16.

to economic performance. You need to be able to deal with big

:43:17.:43:20.

business, because we rely on the private sector to provide

:43:21.:43:23.

all that energy infrastructure. That the same time, you need to keep

:43:24.:43:25.

on board a bunch of very vociferous green stakeholders who are

:43:26.:43:29.

determined to keep the Government to the climate change commitments

:43:30.:43:34.

that were set out in Of course, in the early '80s

:43:35.:43:37.

there was no Decc, and for both Environment Secretaries

:43:38.:43:41.

and Energy Secretaries, Climate change, in my days

:43:42.:43:42.

as the Secretary of State for the Environment,

:43:43.:43:50.

was never the acute issue today, demanding huge subsidies of one

:43:51.:43:55.

sort or another. Nobody ever mentioned climate

:43:56.:43:58.

change, it wasn't an issue, and it has now moved from not

:43:59.:44:03.

being an issue at all to becoming a mania, so that the climate change

:44:04.:44:07.

tail is wagging the energy dog. But Chris Huhne, a coalition

:44:08.:44:14.

Liberal Democrat Secretary of State, If I was to say there was one

:44:15.:44:16.

enormous threat to humanity, not just do this country,

:44:17.:44:24.

it is the fact that we are undergoing a period

:44:25.:44:27.

of enormous climate change, and that is going to have tremendous

:44:28.:44:31.

consequences for future generations unless we get a grip

:44:32.:44:34.

on it very quickly. It fell to Ed Miliband as the first

:44:35.:44:37.

Secretary of State for Decc to wed these competing ideas together

:44:38.:44:41.

in a single department, and he knew the scale

:44:42.:44:45.

of the challenge. I did slightly feel

:44:46.:44:48.

that the people who worked in Energy felt that the people who were

:44:49.:44:51.

from the Environment Department were a bunch of muesli-eating

:44:52.:44:53.

sandal-wearers, and the people who'd come from the Environment part

:44:54.:44:58.

of the forest thought the Energy people were a bunch of

:44:59.:45:01.

petrol-headed sort of technocrats. And so there was definitely

:45:02.:45:03.

a challenge of integration It's not that people

:45:04.:45:06.

weren't committed, but they had their own fiefdoms,

:45:07.:45:11.

they had their own way of doing things,

:45:12.:45:14.

and there was a sort of sense... a sense of mutual suspicion

:45:15.:45:16.

in a way. I was clashing with Eric Pickles,

:45:17.:45:24.

I was clashing with Owen Paterson, I was clashing with

:45:25.:45:27.

George Osborne, of course. because he did actually

:45:28.:45:37.

believe in a lot of green stuff. My problem was he didn't stand up

:45:38.:45:40.

to the Chancellor enough. For Ed Miliband, the problem

:45:41.:45:42.

wasn't so much Chancellor of the time, Alistair Darling,

:45:43.:45:45.

as the Treasury itself. The Treasury likes

:45:46.:45:47.

to control things. You know, that is their

:45:48.:45:51.

institutional role in Whitehall. And so at an institutional level,

:45:52.:45:56.

there was a sense that, hang on a minute,

:45:57.:45:58.

there's this new kid on the block, the department, they seem

:45:59.:46:01.

to have a lot of control over some And it was

:46:02.:46:07.

the cross-Whitehall battles that I used

:46:08.:46:13.

to find most frustrating. But by the time Chris Huhne

:46:14.:46:15.

arrived three years later, the department had begun

:46:16.:46:20.

to find its feet. The curious thing about

:46:21.:46:22.

the Department of Energy and Climate Change is that

:46:23.:46:26.

it is very much rather like the Department

:46:27.:46:28.

for International Development. It has a very, very clear remit,

:46:29.:46:32.

a very clear aim, and a lot of the people who go and work for it

:46:33.:46:35.

at civil service level, and one would hope also political level,

:46:36.:46:39.

do so precisely because they do share those aims and they really

:46:40.:46:42.

want to make them happen. if you have the support

:46:43.:46:46.

of key people. I think the current Prime Minister,

:46:47.:46:50.

actually, as Leader of the Opposition,

:46:51.:46:52.

did help change the debate, The fact that he took a lead

:46:53.:46:55.

on the climate change and green issues definitely

:46:56.:46:59.

held us more to account. But I'm afraid the opposite is true,

:47:00.:47:03.

which is the scepticism of George Osborne, the apparent

:47:04.:47:07.

scepticism of George Osborne about this issue, him saying

:47:08.:47:12.

we should not be a leader, "Why should we be

:47:13.:47:15.

ahead of the pack?" You might say, as a Labour

:47:16.:47:17.

politician, Ed Miliband would say that, but George Osborne's

:47:18.:47:21.

coalition partners Cameron won't get rid of Decc,

:47:22.:47:23.

because he still likes to think he is a green person, famed

:47:24.:47:31.

for being the first Tory leader I think Decc will go overnight,

:47:32.:47:35.

if I'm honest with you. So it would seem that the long view

:47:36.:47:45.

of being Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

:47:46.:47:48.

is not that clear. Either it will become

:47:49.:47:52.

THE department of government, or it's possible that in the future

:47:53.:47:59.

there won't even be one. Now, when it comes to

:48:00.:48:05.

the referendum on EU membership, are you for Remain or for Leave?

:48:06.:48:10.

Or are you perhaps still undecided? Well, according to the polls,

:48:11.:48:13.

many of you aren't sure. But, more surprisingly, that's also

:48:14.:48:16.

a view reflected among some MPs, who haven't yet come

:48:17.:48:21.

out one way or another. As a public service,

:48:22.:48:25.

we here at the Daily Politics have come up

:48:26.:48:28.

with the very latest list of how many MPs are still

:48:29.:48:29.

thinking about it. The Conservative Party is,

:48:30.:48:32.

as you'll have worked out by now, having the biggest struggle

:48:33.:48:34.

with this decision. And that's reflected

:48:35.:48:37.

in the fact that there are still 26 undecided MPs, that's

:48:38.:48:40.

8% of the parliamentary party. We've tried to get in touch

:48:41.:48:43.

with them all, and ten have told us they will declare before the vote,

:48:44.:48:47.

often saying they're waiting until they've finished holding

:48:48.:48:51.

debates in their constituencies. The rest, 16 of them,

:48:52.:48:55.

either said they won't be declaring their intention at all,

:48:56.:48:58.

or they didn't return our calls. You know where we are

:48:59.:49:01.

if you'd like to ring in. where the overwhelming majority

:49:02.:49:08.

of MPs are for remain, there are just eight MPs

:49:09.:49:12.

still to tell us how they'll vote. Of those, two have told us they'll

:49:13.:49:15.

declare before the referendum, aren't playing their cards

:49:16.:49:18.

close to their chest. The SNP, the Lib Dems, Plaid

:49:19.:49:29.

and the other smaller parties have all declared

:49:30.:49:31.

one way or another. Well, to discuss this,

:49:32.:49:33.

we're joined by one Conservative MP He's James Heappey,

:49:34.:49:35.

and he joins us from Bristol. Welcome to the programme. Now, I

:49:36.:49:48.

understand you've made up your mind by Joe not going to tell us. I made

:49:49.:49:55.

my mind of a couple of weeks ago. I was genuinely undecided, but the

:49:56.:49:57.

great literary of being in Parliament as I get to walk through

:49:58.:50:00.

the voting lobbies most evening with the entire cabinet, and the leading

:50:01.:50:04.

campaigners on both sides of the debate, and it meant I was able to

:50:05.:50:08.

answer some of the questions I had and come to my own conclusion. But

:50:09.:50:12.

the reality is that, for my constituents, they don't have that

:50:13.:50:16.

sort of access to those people, so I set myself to deliver the best

:50:17.:50:20.

quality debate that I can within my constituency, and once those are

:50:21.:50:24.

done, I will come clean on what I'm thinking. So you will tell us,

:50:25.:50:32.

because the world is waiting for this, before the vote? Absolutely. I

:50:33.:50:36.

think that people have a right to know how their MPs go to vote, it is

:50:37.:50:41.

a referendum, my vote is no Leave with no more than any constituent,

:50:42.:50:46.

but they may want to know how I will vote. -- my vote is worth no more.

:50:47.:50:51.

Nobody likes the person who claims to have been supporting Leicester

:50:52.:50:55.

City all season, so it is important to get my mark out before the vote.

:50:56.:51:01.

Are you telling us that you support Leicester City in Bristol?! No, no,

:51:02.:51:07.

nobody likes the supporters who say they have been supporting them all

:51:08.:51:11.

along after they have won. Maybe people think you are suspicious,

:51:12.:51:15.

waiting to see which way the wind blows. I am pretty clear on that, I

:51:16.:51:21.

think my constituency and the south-west is a region is probably

:51:22.:51:24.

leaning out, and one of the things that bothers me about the referendum

:51:25.:51:29.

is that it is likely that there will be regions of the country that vote

:51:30.:51:32.

one way when the country as a whole votes be another. It is likely there

:51:33.:51:35.

will be a younger generation that bodes one way, and older that bodes

:51:36.:51:40.

the other, and that creates a challenge, bringing everyone back

:51:41.:51:45.

together afterwards. -- votes. How I vote is immaterial, this is about my

:51:46.:51:50.

constituents. If I were to put ?1 a new voting to come out, I would

:51:51.:51:56.

probably get it back, right? I'm not sure... It is a nice try! Have you

:51:57.:52:02.

got a date when you will make your declaration? I can hardly wait(!) My

:52:03.:52:09.

mum is very excited as well. She has been on the phone to me trying to

:52:10.:52:14.

find out! The last of the debate I am doing is on the 16th of June, and

:52:15.:52:20.

I intend to make it known locally, to the local papers at that point. I

:52:21.:52:24.

am not sure that I will be having you and the BBC on my doorstep,

:52:25.:52:29.

because as much as you flatter me, I am not sure it matters that much do

:52:30.:52:33.

you! We were not going to spend as much to go to your doorstep, but if

:52:34.:52:37.

you were passing the studio, we would have had you on. Don't go

:52:38.:52:42.

away, that we find out what our guests think, is he doing the right

:52:43.:52:46.

thing? It is absolutely bizarre, almost Reformation view of the lobby

:52:47.:52:51.

that you get access to these amazing arguments by walking through

:52:52.:52:53.

Westminster, where normal people could not possibly find out or read

:52:54.:53:00.

internet! If it is used as a way of generating interest in the

:53:01.:53:04.

constituency by engaging people in this way, we are all waiting to see

:53:05.:53:10.

how the vote goes. The important thing is that the Prime Minister had

:53:11.:53:13.

a number, he wanted to make sure that hard his party at least would

:53:14.:53:20.

come out and stay in with him. I think he would have been baffled,

:53:21.:53:23.

but the party is genuinely split, but he has got to the number now,

:53:24.:53:27.

where are the party, more than half the party is with him. You think he

:53:28.:53:32.

has halved the Parliamentary party now? I think he has, I do not know

:53:33.:53:37.

what the bishop publicly declared number is. Only just, I think. James

:53:38.:53:43.

who have been listening, regardless of what you want to happen, how do

:53:44.:53:49.

you think the referendum is going to go on the 23rd? I suspect the

:53:50.:53:54.

country will vote to remain. We will wait to hear from you, thank you for

:53:55.:53:56.

joining us from Bristol. Now, one of the most

:53:57.:54:00.

eye-catching announcements in Wednesday's Queen's Speech

:54:01.:54:02.

was the news that the UK could get its first spaceport,

:54:03.:54:04.

apparently as soon as 2018. That is a lot sooner than a third

:54:05.:54:08.

runway! There are six sites

:54:09.:54:12.

battling to get selected, with Newquay in Cornwall

:54:13.:54:13.

said to be the frontrunner. Prestwick in Scotland is also in the

:54:14.:54:16.

running. Well, as ever, the Daily Politics

:54:17.:54:19.

is ahead of the curve on these things, and we covered the news

:54:20.:54:22.

on Monday's programme. Let's have a listen

:54:23.:54:24.

to Dr Robert Massey he didn't sound too impressed

:54:25.:54:26.

by the idea. Is there a solid business case

:54:27.:54:29.

for it? I think that's an open question,

:54:30.:54:31.

actually. I mean, we put evidence

:54:32.:54:34.

into the select committee's space and satellites policy

:54:35.:54:36.

a couple of months ago, and we were a bit ambivalent

:54:37.:54:38.

about going to operate on a solely

:54:39.:54:41.

commercial basis, If you need, for example,

:54:42.:54:44.

a booming space tourism industry to deliver that,

:54:45.:54:48.

there isn't actually much of a space tourism industry

:54:49.:54:50.

at all at the moment, except wealthy Americans

:54:51.:54:52.

paying the Russians So that was the view

:54:53.:54:53.

of the Royal Astronomical Society. we were contacted by

:54:54.:54:57.

the Royal Aeronautical Society, that's the Royal

:54:58.:55:05.

Aeronautical Society, who said the Royal

:55:06.:55:07.

Astronmical Society had no idea what they were talking about,

:55:08.:55:13.

and were "regrettably misleading" Well, to find out more about

:55:14.:55:26.

this clash of the space experts, we're joined by Dr Malcolm Macdonald

:55:27.:55:33.

from the Royal Aeronautical Society, So

:55:34.:55:47.

Astronomical Society said? Well, I don't want to get into any sort of

:55:48.:55:52.

slanging match... Too late for that! I think it is worth pointing out

:55:53.:55:56.

there were a few technical errors, they said that being close to the

:55:57.:55:58.

equator they said that being close to the

:55:59.:56:02.

is not the case. They'll also said that there isn't a business case, or

:56:03.:56:06.

the business case was not clear. There have been studies done to look

:56:07.:56:12.

at the business case for a UK spaceport,, and it suggests 400

:56:13.:56:20.

would be a settled number, ?45 million per year for that spaceport.

:56:21.:56:23.

It is not that there is a business case, not that it is not known,

:56:24.:56:27.

studies have been done, numbers are available. At our society we have

:56:28.:56:34.

been running a conference in February where we examined the

:56:35.:56:37.

issues, we brought together regulators and legislators, we

:56:38.:56:42.

looked that differ in size from across the UK, we brought together

:56:43.:56:46.

spaceport operators from the USA, and a vehicle operators as well, to

:56:47.:56:50.

explore the technologies, the legislative issues, and ultimately

:56:51.:56:53.

the business case to see how we can learn from worldwide experience to

:56:54.:56:58.

make the UK spaceport as good as it can possibly be. If it is to work in

:56:59.:57:02.

this country, will it need government money? I don't think we

:57:03.:57:05.

should expect any government money. I think you would expect the

:57:06.:57:09.

Government to be doing more of a licensing approach, and indeed that

:57:10.:57:12.

is what has been reported in the press, moving away from that to a

:57:13.:57:18.

licensing process. I understand there were about eight possible

:57:19.:57:23.

sites in the UK for this, is Newquay now the front runner, was Prestwick

:57:24.:57:28.

in with a shout? There were eight sites, down selected to six. Of

:57:29.:57:32.

those, perhaps four are the more serious. From that, it is really

:57:33.:57:36.

difficult to make any comment. The conference we ran in February, it

:57:37.:57:39.

was clear that some of the sites have an advantage over others, but

:57:40.:57:43.

all of them have downsides and positives. Ultimately, if we are

:57:44.:57:48.

moving towards licensing, we will probably see more than one in the

:57:49.:57:52.

UK. There are ten within the USA. Would you like to send a fraternal

:57:53.:57:57.

message to the Royal Ascot uncle society? No, I mean, I would

:57:58.:58:03.

encourage all of the societies and professional bodies, everybody to

:58:04.:58:07.

share the expertise that they have, but to make sure that it is backed

:58:08.:58:12.

based. We will leave at there, thank you very much. That huge crane

:58:13.:58:16.

behind you was the spaceport of its day, that used to load 30,000 cars a

:58:17.:58:22.

year, sorry, steam engines. Before we go, the quiz, what was the

:58:23.:58:29.

answer? And you're a member? What do people take the Micky Adams Andy

:58:30.:58:33.

Burnham for? I think a lot of reasons, not least as eyelashes! And

:58:34.:58:39.

his ability to stick to anything he says! But I think it was about being

:58:40.:58:45.

from the North. All right, I have no idea what the answer is! That was

:58:46.:58:49.

the right one! I will be back with the Sunday Politics on Sunday

:58:50.:58:52.

morning, to join me then, please! Bye-bye.

:58:53.:58:57.

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