Browse content similar to 23/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
Just one month to go until Britain votes in the referendum on EU | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
membership, and both sides are turning up the volume. | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
The Prime Minister and Chancellor are warning of a "DIY recession" | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
lasting a year, should we vote to leave. | :00:52. | :00:52. | |
Their opponents say their forecast is "fantastical". | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
Meanwhile, Leave campaigners continue to push their message | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
that the NHS would be better off out of the EU, despite claims | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
from some senior figures within the health service. | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
Questions over the Conservatives' election spending continue. | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
We'll speak to the SNP MP who's reported the Tories | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
And, the journalist Rachel Johnson will be here to tell us | :01:11. | :01:19. | |
about her campaign to change the planning laws, and stop | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
her wealthy neighbours digging down to create | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
And, with us for the whole of the programme today, two MPs | :01:24. | :01:41. | |
who are going to spend the next month arguing over Britain's future, | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
But we know they like each other really, underneath! | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
It's the former Conservative Defence Secretary and Leave | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
And the Labour MP David Lammy, he's supporting a vote to Remain. | :01:51. | :01:58. | |
So, in four weeks' time, voters will be going to the polls. | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
And, as we pass that landmark, the claims and counterclaims | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
The might of the Treasury machine has been brought to bear | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
by the Remain camp this morning, with their latest warning | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
While their opponents in the Leave camp are pursuing their own favoured | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
messages on the potential benefit of leaving for the NHS, and | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
So, let's take you though some of those big claims. | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
David Cameron and George Osborne have released a Treasury | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
report warning that Britain would enter a year-long, so-called | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
DIY recession, with the economy | :02:39. | :02:39. | |
Meanwhile, Leave campaigner Penny Mordaunt has launched | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
a new push highlighting the possible risks of Turkish accession | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
to the EU, focussing on David Cameron's call to "pave | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
the road from Ankara to Brussels." | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
The fight this week will also centre on the role the EU plays in the NHS, | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
with its chief executive Simon Stevens yesterday | :02:58. | :02:58. | |
claiming exiting would cost staff and resources. | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
Those campaigning to Leave have launched a new TV advert | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
which argues the reverse, saying health service could benefit | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
by up to an extra ?350 million a week after a Brexit. | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
In Wales, the leaders of Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
have put aside their differences to back Remain. | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood said that Wales was "stronger, | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
safer and better off in Europe". | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
But one friendship appears to have hit the buffers, | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
with David Cameron's policy guru Steve Hilton today arguing that | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
So, those are some of the big campaign issues. | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Let's begin by talking about one of them, and that's the possibility | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
Gentlemen, if you look at the vote the poster, Turkey, population of 76 | :03:46. | :04:03. | |
million is joining the EU. David Lammy, will that happen? | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
Historically, the Germans and French have been against it. We are | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
certainly lukewarm about it. It came up in discussion in relation | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
to the refugees in the last few months, and a deal that was done | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
that is seen to put this way into the long grass, so it is not | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
reality. I might say my constituencies, with | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
the largest Turkish speaking publishing in Britain, 18,000 | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
Cypriots from the 2011 census, 50,000 Turkish speaking former | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
Kurds. They are really contributing to our economy. This is whipping up | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
a storm. To get a debate about immigration, not the EU, I | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
suspect... If it was on the table because talks | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
are supposed to have been energised, would you be in favour of Turkey | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
joining in the next five years? Not as of today. That is | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
scaremongering, Project Fear by your side? | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
The aim is to get Turkey into the European Union. The European Union | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
game. And Britain? British Government | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
policy to support Turkish policy of the EU. The Gwent has always been | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
that it would help push the Turkish political process towards the norms | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
of the EU. But, how do you get a country of 80 | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
million people into the EU while used to have free movement? And the | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
problems that could have caused with mass migration inside the EU? That | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
risk is still there, it is not being addressed. We have not stand the | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
concept of free movement of people, that is the biggest roadblock to | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
their membership. Because of the veto which Penny | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
Morduant incorrectly said we didn't have, the likelihood of Turkey ever | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
joining the EU in the foreseeable future is off the cards? | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
Turkey was able to use the migrant crisis to its benefit. It hasn't got | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
Visa free movement yet. You see the influence Turkey is | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
wielding. And you see the risks that if Turkey were to join along with | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
wielding. And you see the risks that Albania and others, that principle | :06:23. | :06:22. | |
of free movement would mean potentially huge migrations across | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
Europe in search of work. David Cameron was | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
Europe in search of work. yesterday Britain does have a veto, | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
which he exercised it? If you look back at his track record, he has | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
been in favour as Liam Fox has said of Turkish accession, he championed | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
it. I am confident, as of today, he | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
would, because of the situation in Europe finds itself in. Alongside | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
him would be the Germans who are clear they don't want Turkey coming | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
into the EU, and the French. It isn't going to happen, it was | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
doubtful before the crash, very doubtful as of today. | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
It is doubtful. So you are because of a British Government | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
veto, even if you doubt David because of a British Government | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
I don't believe it is out of the question for Turkey to join, it is | :07:21. | :07:21. | |
clear question for Turkey to join, it is | :07:22. | :07:33. | |
Once we have decided to stay in the EU and we are locked in, it is 41 | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
years since we last had a choice, who is to say we won't have all | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
these countries in number four way are given another say. | :07:42. | :07:51. | |
And the year 3000... David Cameron said... Did you not believe him? | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
They think they can predict these numbers far out. It is the | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Government policy to see Turkey come in, and the EU. | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
Every expert over the weekend in terms of EU put it said it is | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
unlikely. Alongside the poster, Leave campaigners claimed Britain | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
will open the doors to high levels of mergers, terrorists and | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
kidnappers from Turkey, is that responsible? | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
You need to look at the whole position. | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
That claim... I wouldn't use those exact words. | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
You can see that there are commuter seen what has happened in recent | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
days with those coming into the EU. We don't know whether they are | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
economic migrants, refugees, sympathises with terrorist | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
movements. When they get citizenship, the point is, of any EU | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
country, they have a right to settle in the UK. | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
You support those words to mark the problem is that you would not know | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
who got citizenship. That could be a real fear, opening | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
the door to people, you don't know who they are and they do. | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
I think, more night, less heat. It is not imminent, it is not | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
happening. We are whipping up a storm about the problem is not on | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
the cards. Turkey would like to come in but it is absolutely cleared the | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
three major countries in Europe do not want them. | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
On the wider point you have just raised, we know there are millions | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
of migrants entering the EU, we don't know who they are. When they | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
are given citizenship. They are entering the Schengen area, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
not Britain. How many years does it take for | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
someone to get citizenship? Between two and three. I think you | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
will find it is seven or eight, if you look at the list. | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Not two years. But when they do, they will have a right to settle in | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
the UK. We have no means of stopping them. If we vote to stay, we have no | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
means of controlling our border in terms of which EU citizens have a | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
right to settle in the UK. That is the fear many people have. | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
Immigration has been something the Leave campaign will focus on. | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
Remain on the economy. Another area opening up fierce debate is the NHS | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
over the weekend. Simon Stephens, entered the fray in favour of | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
Remain, while David Owen said the NHS would be better if Britain left. | :10:27. | :10:28. | |
Let us listen to both of them. When Mark Carney says that the risk | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
of a slowdown in economic growth, possibly a recession, | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
if we end up exiting the EU, if Mark Carney is right, | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
then that is a severe concern for the National Health Service, | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
because it would be very dangerous if, at precisely the moment the NHS | :10:40. | :10:41. | |
is going to need extra funding, actually, the economy goes | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
into a tailspin, and that funding If there is any danger to the NHS, | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
it is in staying in, with all the elements of the NHS | :10:48. | :10:58. | |
which are now involved with the EU. For most of the first 20 | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
years of our membership, the Common Market, we had no | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
involvement with the NHS at all. Now, the NHS procurement policy, | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
the NHS competition policy is all impacting because we started | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
to marketise the NHS It continued under the coalition | :11:11. | :11:20. | |
with the Liberal Democrats and this And it has continued under this | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
Conservative Government. Liam Fox, Simon Davies rejects the | :11:27. | :11:42. | |
idea suggested by your side that extent would free up money that | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
currently goes to Brussels. At best he said it would fund the NHS the 19 | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
days a year. Any extra funding would be helpful | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
and Simon Stephens has been overseeing the biggest deficit in | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
the NHS. Rather than involving himself in... | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
The figures imply something different, you say. It wouldn't | :12:01. | :12:10. | |
necessarily all go on the NHS. It is up to Government to decide how | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
we spend that money, money is available. At the moment we are | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
sending that to Brussels, ?10 billion a year we send net to | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
Brussels. You don't think we could spend that money better ourselves on | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
our own parities rather than handing it over to the bureaucrats in | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Brussels? What the Vote Leave campaign is | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
doing is offering governments in the future far greater freedom. | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
Simon Stephens may not think ?10 billion a year or a share of that | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
would help. He is running a ?2.5 billion deficit in the NHS this | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
year. If you would think that money would be better spent removing that | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
deficit... You might think he would have a good | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
idea of what is going on in the NHS. With the biggest deficit in the NHS | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
has one he might be better spending his time on that and getting | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
involved in the referendum campaign. It is a lot of money. Even if you | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
take your version of the figures that would not be going to Brussels, | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
it would be a lot the Government could decide and it would be up to | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
then to decide to spend on different priorities and the NHS could be one. | :13:14. | :13:24. | |
Simon Stephens, for Labour and the Conservatives, he has rubbished that | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
figure. He said it amounts to about 19 days spending. Anyone looking at | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
the NHS objectively can see that mental health, particularly, is in | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
collapse. Can see there are real problems in primary care in our | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
country. There are still lots of surgeries and GPs struggling. | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
Against that context, he said quite rightly, if there is a recession, | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
the NHS gets a serious cold, we don't benefit at all from leaving. | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
That is completely reasonable. He is impartial, careful about his | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
comments. A man who has worked for successive governments and knows. | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
You are part of a party and Government which said consistently | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
the NHS relies on a strong economy. Are you saying that is wrong? | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
We have a strong economy and continue. I think we will whether we | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
are in the EU or not. The point is we are sending a net ?10 billion a | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
year to Brussels. That figure has been rubbished. That | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
is the Treasury figure. That money would be better spent on | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
our priorities in Britain and the priorities of the EU bureaucrats. | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
Those cannot be guaranteed priorities. | :14:39. | :14:47. | |
You don't understand my point. That is net. | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
Would you be able to guaranteed to those areas with subsidies they | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
would get the same money if we left the EU? | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
But, what about the terrorists that would be imposed on our | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
pharmaceuticals and companies as a consequence of leaving? | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
That would bloat the NHS budget. I don't believe that, there is no | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
logic. Before we go on talking about this, | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
At the end of the show, Liam and David will give us | :15:24. | :15:39. | |
David Cameron and George Osborne have been giving a joint press | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
conference this morning as a DIY store in Eastleigh. | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
So, what are the numbers from the Treasury analysis today? | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
An economist looked at two scenarios. | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
One where Britain experiences a shock, the second, | :15:56. | :15:57. | |
And under both scenarios, here are the results. | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
This is what happens if Britain leaves. | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
The economy shrinks, the value of the pound falls, | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
inflation rises, unemployment rises, real wages are hit, so too are house | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
prices, and, as a result, Government borrowing goes up. | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
The central conclusions of today's Treasury analysis are clear. | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
A vote to leave will push our economy into a recession. | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
Let's speak now to Gerard Lyons, he's one of the economists | :16:28. | :16:29. | |
Do you accept that there will be a short-term shock if we leave the EU, | :16:30. | :16:44. | |
as the Treasury says? I do believe there will be a shock. I | :16:45. | :16:46. | |
as the Treasury says? I do believe same about two years ago. I | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
as the Treasury says? I do believe detailed analysis. But the reality | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
is that even though there might be a temporary shock, the outcome for the | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
UK economy with Brexit is positive. But I find surprising about today's | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
Treasury analysis is how pessimistic it is. They have assumed a far | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
deeper and longer hit, and they have portrayed the figures in a bizarre | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
way. They have said the hit to the economy is down 3.6% over two years. | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
They have not pointed out whether that means the economy is bigger or | :17:15. | :17:16. | |
smaller, because as we that means the economy is bigger or | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
Budget a few months ago, the independent OBR said the economy | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
would be 4.4% bigger after two years. So it is difficult to | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
would be 4.4% bigger after two things in perspective. The Treasury | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
has outlined three areas where they think the economy would be hit. One | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
of the three, I agree with. There would be an uncertainty impact. | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
Secondly, they said there would be a financial impact. But there you can | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
turn the Treasury's argument on its head. They said the pound could be | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
down up to 15%. When the Chancellor was talking about the march of the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
makers, he said the fall in the pound would help exporters, and a | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
fall in the pound would basically bring it down to a level where a | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
couple of years ago, the Chancellor said that was good for the economy. | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
The third point of the Treasury is their assumptions about the | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
so-called transition effect. They suggest that leaving the EU and | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
embracing Brexit means we would both keep the regulations and keep up | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
high tariff barriers. You can question that significantly. I agree | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
with the fact that there might be a temporary short-term impact, but the | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
Treasury's analysis is far too pessimistic. But you do agree that | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
there would be a short-term shock. The question is, if you cannot | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
quantify it and you don't know how long that shock will last, you can | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
see how people might vote to stay in. You can quantify it and you can | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
make assumptions. I did a detailed analysis a couple of years ago which | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
also had independent forecasters look at it, and we found with a | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
Brexit scenario, cutting tariff barriers and becoming global, I was | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
looking at the London economy. Brexit added 900 jobs to London | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
economy over two business cycles and an additional 200,000 jobs -- | :19:04. | :19:13. | |
900,000 jobs, compared to 200,000 jobs if we stayed in the EU. What is | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
the evidence that you know better? I am saying that in every economic | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
debate, there are two sides, and of the three points the Treasury has | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
assumed, I agree with one of their assumptions about the uncertainty | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
effect. But the financial effect would be positive. A weaker pound in | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
a low inflation environment would allow interest rates to remain low. | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
That is positive. I disagree with the assumptions the Treasury made | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
about the likely policy scenario outside in terms of tariffs and | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
regulations. Ahead of Black Wednesday back in 1992, I took a | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
very different view and people criticised my view. I said the pound | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
would leave the ERM and it would be good news for the economy. At that | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
time, the Treasury said if the pound left the ERM, inflation would rise | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
and the economy would shrink. Of course, the opposite happened. I am | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
not afraid to have a different view. But I can understand where the | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
Treasury is coming from in that there would be a shock. But I would | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
argue that they are far too pessimistic and they have made some | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
unrealistic assumptions. We are now joined by the Treasury minister, | :20:25. | :20:33. | |
Harriet Baldwin. So, unrealistic and pessimistic assumptions from Gerard | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
Lyons in terms of the Treasury analysis? Actually, Gerard Lyons is | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
one of the eight economists that the Brexit campaign has found in the | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
entire world to support the case that we would be better off if we | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
left. He is saying he agreed that there would be uncertainty. And | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
there is a great deal of economic analysis that shows that when there | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
is uncertainty in the world, businesses put investment decisions | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
on hold. They freeze their decisions to hire additional people, and it | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
leads to an economic shock. We have spelt out today not just the | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
uncertainty effect, but also the transition effect, the one where we | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
are moving to a worst trade deal. We know that whatever we move to will | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
be worse than what we currently have. That means the transition to | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
being permanently poorer. People and businesses would have to adjust. | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
Thirdly, there would be a financial shock. We have agreed on a cautious | :21:33. | :21:46. | |
set of assumptions. What is the evidence that GDP could grow by 3.6% | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
less than currently predicted, which goes up to 6% less if, as you claim, | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
there would not be a deal for access to the single market for the UK if | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
it left the EU, that house price growth would be hit by 10%, going up | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
to 18% in the worst scenario? These figures sound like they have been | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
plucked out of thin air. These are cautious assumptions. We have taken | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
the core scenario, the OBR forecast if we remain, because the government | :22:17. | :22:26. | |
wants us to remain. It is an important, permanent decision that | :22:27. | :22:28. | |
the country is making and we think strongly that the country will be | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
better off if we remain. But where is the evidence for these figures? | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
Your viewers will be able to see the common-sense case that where there | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
is uncertainty, we know the process of leaving is a two-year negotiation | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
process. Businesses and consumers would not know what they would end | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
up with, but we do know that all of the different trade arrangements, | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
all of the different deals that have been cited, like Norway and Canada, | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
are worse than what we have. But Britain is different and we are in a | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
different situation to those countries. Are you saying people | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
should rely on the Treasury for getting its analysis right with its | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
track record? There are lots of other sources of analysis on this, | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
whether it is the IMF, the OECD, or a range of different academics from | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
different universities or whether it is our own Bank of England. There | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
has been a huge number of different estimates and they have all agreed | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
that the range of possible shocks to the economy would be between bad to | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
very bad. You have just heard Brexit's an economist saying there | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
would be a short-term shock. We say 500,000 jobs fewer would exist in | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
the economy during a two-year period and interest rates would go up for | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
people who want to borrow money. That is wholeheartedly bad for the | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
British economy. You heard Gerard Lyons saying he agreed that there | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
would be some shock to the economy and some uncertainty, but that that | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
would correct. Bearing in mind that this is a vote that is supposed to | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
settle the matter for regeneration, are you asking people to base their | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
vote on the future of the UK's relationship with the EU on what | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
could happen over a two-year period rather than what might happen in a | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
30 year period? The UK Government thinks we will be better off not | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
only in the short term, but also in the long term. That is because the | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
single market is the gold standard of trade agreements. | :24:40. | :24:55. | |
The Leave campaigners have said they don't want to be in the single | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
market. They have not been clear about what kind of trade arrangement | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
they would see. All we can say is that all other trade arrangement are | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
worse than the current arrangement. The single market gives businesses | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
in this country access to 500 million consumers. Let's look at one | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
of the predictions. Carolyn Fairbairn of the CBI says the claim | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
that families would be better off if we stay in the EU are not accurate. | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
She says that is not a correct figure that she would use. How | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
confident can people be figure that she would use. How | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
other figures? I think figure that she would use. How | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
economic expertise people listen to, the UK would be economically worse | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
off. Businesses and individuals would be worse off. Is accuracy | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
important in would be worse off. Is accuracy | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
are, it is hard for us in the Treasury to be able to compare what | :25:57. | :25:58. | |
is being Treasury to be able to compare what | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
They can't agree amongst themselves what they would like to have. But we | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
do know the single market is what they would like to have. But we | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
over the last decade, we have had ?1 billion | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
over the last decade, we have had ?1 country in foreign direct investment | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
that creates jobs. And it is thanks to access to the single market. Let | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
me bring in Liam Fox. There is an admission now I quite a few of those | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
leavers on your side that there would be a short-term shock. Why | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
should this country expose itself to a short-term economic shock, which | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
we don't know how long it would last or how deep it would be, just to | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
we don't know how long it would last come out of the EU? There will | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
obviously be a period of uncertainty, during which time the | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
government will have to negotiate the best terms for the UK. The | :26:49. | :26:57. | |
Treasury have not been consistent. In 1992, they said a collapsing | :26:58. | :26:58. | |
market confidence would bring a In 1992, they said a collapsing | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
damaging rise in interest rates. If we cut loose from the ERM, the pound | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
will dive. What did happen after we left the ERM? Interest rates came | :27:07. | :27:15. | |
way down, and inflation was stable. But interest rates shot up in the | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
immediate aftermath. Before we left the ERM, we had 18% interest rates. | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
It was the beginning of growth in our economy. But there was a shock. | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
There was a short-term period of uncertainty, but if we vote to leave | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
on the 23rd of June, we are likely not to actually leave until 2019. | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
The Treasury assumption is that the government is unable to get any | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
trade deals and there are no other factors that attract business to | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
Britain other than being in the EU, which is wrong. I am disappointed to | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
see my colleagues spouting a misused Treasury model. We normally get a | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
central prediction. We get a downside prediction and an upside. | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
All we are getting here is the downside. There is no attempt to | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
look at whether there might be benefits. Let me put that to | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
Harriet. You would usually have a variety of scenarios, best case, | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
worst case. In this case, it is bad or worse. Yes. Because the central | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
assumption is that the government wants us to remain for the good of | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
the economy. Then we compare all the other trade arrangements to that, | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
and we know that they go from worse to very much worse. So we have | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
chosen a cautious analysis of how bad things could be. There is a | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
severe shock scenario which is considerably worse than the one you | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
are highlighting. This is a cautious analysis about the loss of jobs and | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
the uncertainty that could occur if we were rash enough to do a DIY | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
recession. Liam Fox, on the economic arguments, do you agree that you | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
don't have many economists or economic institutions batting for | :29:15. | :29:23. | |
you when it comes to having statistics that would support your | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
claims of being better off outside the EU? When people are against | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
840,000 jobs lost in two years according to the Chancellor, youth | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
unemployed up by 10%... These are made up numbers. Well, can you say | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
that when the Treasury has put together these numbers? Well, they | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
are made up on assumptions. They are not facts. And your facts are? I | :29:49. | :29:56. | |
think this referendum is about getting control of our laws and | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
borders. The assumption that the only way to trade for Britain's | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
prosperity is inside the European Union, how a single biggest trading | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
partner is the US. We operate under WTO rules with the US. Why is that a | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
hindrance to the UK economy? Are there no economic risks to staying | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
in the EU, Harriet? Bearing in mind that we have had a long recession, | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
the treatment of Greece has been seen as very damaging by many within | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
the EU. Are you saying it is plain sailing if we stay within the EU? I | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
think what we have within the EU is the best of both worlds. We don't | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
have the euro, which is clearly causing a lot of difficulties, you | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
mentioned Greece. It has been difficult for many countries in the | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
southern Mediterranean. So we don't have that, and we do have access to | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
the single market, which is 500 million customers, tariff free, for | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
our UK economy. So we have the best of both worlds in terms of the | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
economic arrangements. We will not be drawn into any Eurozone bailouts. | :31:02. | :31:08. | |
It is a very good outcome, and none of the alternatives, particularly | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
the WTO arrangements, would create anything other than a huge economic | :31:13. | :31:20. | |
crisis, with no agreement from the leavers as to what they want. | :31:21. | :31:28. | |
Is it edifying, and correct for the Treasury that it is coming out so | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
firmly on one side of the debate? I am so sorry, I am going to ask David | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
Lammy. It would be extraordinary if the | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
Treasury of the country did not do its best to come to a measured view. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
Liam concedes that there would be uncertainty. The question for the | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
British public, at a time when there are more northern young people | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
coming to London because there aren't jobs in the north, when | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
growth is 0.4%, where public borrowing was ?91 billion last year. | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
The economy is fragile. Of course, if you exited, there would be a | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
shock and there are consequences. They have laid back out. Liam has | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
said there is a period of uncertainty. | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
If you are unemployed comic young, in the north of Britain, | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
manufacturing sluggish, it is not fine, it is deeply worrying. There | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
is a risk attached. It would be the have-nots hit | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
hardest. I do not believe that. | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
The collapse in the European economy as a result of the euro is causing | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
ever increasing numbers of young Europeans particularly from the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
south to migrate to the UK. And our growth? Growth has been | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
great. Clearly, our growth is strong, the eurozone is very weak. | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
As long as there is free movement there will be increasing numbers | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
coming to the UK. It is the same issue, the collapse of the euro zone | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
economy. The very low levels of growth, massive and implement, 50% | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
of young Spaniards unemployed. Most of them came, the biggest numbers, | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
to the UK. We are not immune. Our budgetary | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
contribution is dependent on how our economy is growing in relation to | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
the rest of the EU. The more of British taxpayers's | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
money will go to Brussels. On the issue of Turkey, are you | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
clear about written using its veto if the issue of Turkey, Turkish | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
accession, came up. Certainly it would if it came up | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
accession, came up. today. There are 27 other countries | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
who think along those lines. I grew up in Cyprus and ancestors Cyprus | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
will veto Turkish membership. I don't think that is an issue likely | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
to arise in any of our lifetimes. You think it is as far away as that. | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
British foreign policy is clear it is something that should be and | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
would be considered? British foreign policy for a number | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
of decades has been to welcome countries that wanted to come, | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
liberal, open democracies with free press, mature economies, into better | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
trading arrangements. I think that has been something that has enhanced | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
economic progress across the continent and social progress. But | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
it is clear to everyone not only do we have a veto in | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
it is clear to everyone not only do membership, but lots of other | :34:44. | :34:43. | |
countries do. membership, but lots of other | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
They are nowhere near ready. Should David Cameron stop | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
They are nowhere near ready. Should about how he would welcome Turkish | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
accession? It is clear this has been brought | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
into the campaign discussions as the reddest of red herrings. | :34:58. | :34:59. | |
into the campaign discussions as the Lammy was saying is correct, the | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
decision on the 23rd of June is Lammy was saying is correct, the | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
in the UK. We have published an analysis showing there would be | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
500,000 job losses, many across the regions. That | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
500,000 job losses, many across the will vote to Remain. | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
Speaking on the half of the Government, as a Government | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
minister, she Government, as a Government | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
Turkish accession today. Government, as a Government | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
It is a hypothetical question, as you know. They | :35:31. | :35:31. | |
It is a hypothetical question, as secured one out of | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
It is a hypothetical question, as you know, it is not an issue even on | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
the table. Thank you very much. | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
As you can probably tell, it's going to be a big week | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
of the highlights, and a few other stories that might | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
This campaign's already got more buses than Piccadilly Circus. | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
But, today, two more are revving their engines. | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
Nigel Farage hops aboard the Ukip referendum bus. | :36:01. | :36:02. | |
And comedian Eddie Izzard takes to the road in support | :36:03. | :36:04. | |
MPs will continue to debate last week's Queen's Speech. | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
And, on Tuesday, they'll be talking about the controversial subjects | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
On Wednesday, at Stormont, new ministers are expected to be | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
appointed to the Northern Ireland Assembly, following the elections | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
And Business Secretary Sajid Javid is expected to be in Mumbai, | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
ahead of a board meeting where we may find out more | :36:22. | :36:23. | |
about the potential buyers for Tata Steel and its | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
On Thursday, the BBC's first referendum debate gets underway, | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
with Victoria Derbyshire hosting an event for younger | :36:32. | :36:33. | |
And, on Friday, restrictions come into force preventing the Government | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
It's known as purdah, and means big announcements, | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
like today's warning from the Treasury, | :36:44. | :36:44. | |
We're joined now by Lucy Fisher from The Times, and Jason Groves | :36:45. | :36:53. | |
We think they may be the last political journalists in Westminster | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
not to be sent away on a battle bus of some description! | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
They had a lucky escape. What impact will purge have? It will | :37:03. | :37:12. | |
be a very interesting time. The Government have planned for this. We | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
have seen the main cost benefit analyses come out like the Treasury | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
document, a week before this starts. The effects will last. Now these | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
figures are out, we will be talking about them into that period. | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
Will we notice any real difference? In the campaign, we will. Far fewer | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
of these documents. The reason we have seen this Oleg is because the | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
postal ballots go out on Friday. Both sides are clear these documents | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
do have a short-term impact on the poles and are hoping to make the | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
most it. Let us talk about Tory infighting, | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
Liam Fox and Harrods Baldwin representing different sides of the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
argument. Lucy, is it getting difficult to see | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
that reconciliation in a cabinet of all the talents being put together | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
after 23rd of June. If we presume that Remain wins, | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
because if Brexit wins I don't think Cameron and Osborne won't survive. | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
It will be difficult to see how the Conservative Party comes back | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
together. There are two issues. The first is | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
the cabinet. The many ministers on the pro-Brexit site, it is hard for | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
us to see a way back. Penny Morduant suggested the Prime Minister needs | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
to build trust with voters after the Panama papers and concerns about his | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
finances. It is difficult to see how she will survive. | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
The Government will need a clear at reshuffle. Some who have been loyal | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
on the Brexit side like Chris Grayling who hasn't really | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
criticised Government policy, he is likely to remain. | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
On the second issue, policy issues will need to reunite people. Like | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
Trident. Or keep to uncontroversial policies | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
like that is in the Queen's Speech. David Cameron has said it would be | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
an opportunity post June the 23rd, to bring together both sides. You | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
would need to give some big jobs if Remain were to win, to those who had | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
campaigned to leave? If anything, Lucy is optimistic | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
about what will happen after June 23. | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
It will be extraordinarily difficult to bring the party back together. It | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
is quite possible the Prime Minister will face a vote of no confidence | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
from his own MPs. I think he would win that. But he will have to face | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
the fact 80 of them want him gone. With a majority of 12, it is | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
difficult to do anything even vaguely controversial. | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
He will try to patch things up by giving people like Boris Johnson a | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
good job. I think his prospects for governing | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
in the longer term are going to be damaged. | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
What about the papers? In terms of finding it difficult to decide which | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
way to go? I think we know which way most | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
papers fall today. A new Reuters Institute study showing 45% of | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
articles in the last two months have been for Brexit, 27 cents for | :40:26. | :40:27. | |
Remain. It is not clear from the methodology | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
how that works. The way the papers are covering it | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
is interesting. The leading world figures, | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
institutions, are on one side, Remain, largely. | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
For the Daily Mail, the Times newspaper, we have two slightly | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
adjust to that bias towards the biggest Jewish and is being behind | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
Remain, to give some providence to the Brexit debate. We need to do our | :40:54. | :41:01. | |
fact checks. Thank you to both of you. | :41:02. | :41:03. | |
Now, yesterday, the Prime Minister said the Conservative Party had "not | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
done anything wrong" over its expenses at last | :41:07. | :41:08. | |
may have been "mis-declared" or "left out". | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
A number of police forces are investigating whether tens | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
of thousands of pounds spent campaigning in 29 marginal seats | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
should have been declared locally rather than centrally. | :41:18. | :41:19. | |
I am very confident that the Conservative Party | :41:20. | :41:30. | |
is gripping this with the chairman, Andrew Feldman. | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
Lots of political parties have these bus tours. | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
Buses that go around different constituencies, and that | :41:38. | :41:39. | |
But this is all now in conversation with the electoral commission | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
and these other investigations, so we should let that | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
But I'm confident the idea of a bus that is a national bus that | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
visits constituences, the Labour Party has done that, | :41:51. | :41:52. | |
Well, yesterday, the SNP MP Pete Wishart wrote | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
to the Metropolitan Police, to call for a wider investigation | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
into whether the Conservatives attempted to subvert | :42:02. | :42:02. | |
the Representation Of The People Act. | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
And Pete Wishart joins us now from Dundee. | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
There are already ten separate investigations into the Conservative | :42:13. | :42:20. | |
Party's election expenses, what is the point of another one? | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
Those ten investigations are right and proper and will take their due | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
course. What I have asked for is the | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
Conservative Party as a national outfit to be investigated by the | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
Metropolitan Police. We know this was organised, these battle buses, | :42:37. | :42:45. | |
accommodation expenses, what we have to see if if there was a systematic | :42:46. | :42:54. | |
attempt to try to pass off candidate is the future as national | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
expenditure. The Prime Minister has conceded this. He tried to say this | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
was a minor, trifling issue of something left out. We are talking | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
about the integrity of an electoral system to make sure elections are | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
fair. It looks like because of the party have broken those laws. | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
There is some admission of administrative error which is not | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
the same as what you are suggesting, a deliberate intent. Do you not have | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
confidence in the police investigations because they will be | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
looking at exactly that? The current police investigations | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
will be looking at local issues, CAD itched expenditure in particular | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
constituencies. I want something different, for the Conservative | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
Party to be looked at. It is clear from the Prime Minister yesterday | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
that the law was not adhered to. This is not an optional extra, this | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
is a fundamental exercise in ensuring the integrity of our | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
elections. Something has definitely gone on. There is a concession from | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
the Conservative Party. Let us leave the police to look at this | :44:09. | :44:10. | |
the Conservative Party. Let us leave Do you know what form the | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
investigation will take? I wrote to them yesterday. | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
investigation will take? Not yet. We are looking at several | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
cases. I think this is on a par with the cash for honours which blighted | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
the Tony Blair Government. An attempt to dismiss casually the way | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
the law should be applied in these attempt to dismiss casually the way | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
things. This has been bubbling away for such a long time. I | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
things. This has been bubbling away the statements from the Government | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
and we have heard nothing. Let us put that. Similar to a cash | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
for honours scandal. We are talking about a large number of marginal | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
seats. We don't know about a large number of marginal | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
might or might not have changed that result. The | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
might or might not have changed that reason. If it is found the party has | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
overspent or declared local spending at a national level in order to push | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
their campaign locally, what would you say? | :45:13. | :45:13. | |
The party was always clear you say? | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
basic issue it believed it was operating from the rules and having | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
a national bus operating from the rules and having | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
promoting candidates in those constituencies, promoting the | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
Government's Central case. The electoral commission is looking at. | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
There are police force is looking into individual candidates and their | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
returns come in each individual is responsible for that. The | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
Metropolitan Police have better things to do dealing with crime than | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
an SNP political stunt given these investigations are underway. | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
You don't think it is important for the Metropolitan Police to pursue? | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
It is important that these investigations take their course. | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
Except that they are focusing on whether expenses came under the | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
national battle bus. There is also a question mark over accommodation | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
costs that could have been put under the national costings total. That | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
would also be against the rules. That is what the Metropolitan Police | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
would look at, whether it was centrally controlled in terms of | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
directing expenses locally to the national budget. The Conservative | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
Party admitted that those figures should have been declared. They have | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
gone to the electoral commission and the electoral commission will make a | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
judgment on that and whether rules were infringed. In fact, the actual | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
number would not have made difference to the overall accounts. | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
But why, when these investigations are going on, involve the | :46:48. | :46:57. | |
Metropolitan Police? It is a waste of money and a political stunt. I | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
will come back to you in a moment, Pete Wishart. But first, isn't it | :47:01. | :47:08. | |
always the case that parties blur the distinction between what is | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
local and what is centralised spending in elections? No. Actually, | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
we have really hard rules about election expenses. And it is because | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
we do not want political parties buying elections, spending billions | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
like we see in the United States. If you look at the last general | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
election result, the real conversation was the Lib Dem | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
collapse. If you look at these marginals, many in the south-west, | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
the accusation is that these elections were stolen. This is a | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
very serious inquiry. It should have much more discussion in the | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
Westminster village. Yes, of course the Met should look at what went on. | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
And what about labour battle buses? Should the police investigate | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
whether Labour party used a battle bus? At the moment, there is no | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
suggestion of labour fraud. There is a suggestion in 29 seats that you | :48:11. | :48:18. | |
"mis-declared" your spending. That is a serious act queues Asian and it | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
would go to the Conservatives -- that is a serious accusation. They | :48:26. | :48:35. | |
are allegations. Before we let you go, these accusations fly on all | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
parties. It has been alleged that Nicola Sturgeon's helicopter tour | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
included some local campaigning. Are you confident that the costs were | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
properly declared? Listen, I want David Cameron to come to Scotland... | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
Are you confident it was properly declared? They're always what if | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
questions. This is about the fact that the Conservatives bust loads of | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
conservative actors in and tried to pass that off as local spending. The | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
cavalier attitude of Liam Fox and the Conservative Party on this, I | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
think, does a great disservice to the many people throughout this | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
country who are concerned about this, who are looking at | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
Conservative Brexit election results and think they might have been | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
bought. -- now looking at Conservative election results and | :49:35. | :49:35. | |
think they might have been bought. Now to Austria, where presidential | :49:36. | :49:37. | |
elections are on a knife-edge. The job is mainly a ceremonial one, | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
but the contest is being closely watched because it could see | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
the election of the EU's All the direct votes have been | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
counted in the contest between Norbert Hofer | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
of the far-right Freedom Party and Alexander Van Der Bellen, | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
the former leader It now rests on the hundreds | :49:52. | :49:53. | |
of thousands of postal votes, the result of which will be | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
announced his evening. Let's get the latest | :49:57. | :49:58. | |
from our correspondent What is the latest? We are still | :49:59. | :50:11. | |
waiting for those postal votes to be counted. Austria is waiting to see | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
who the next incumbent will be of the presidential palace behind me. | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
Whatever the result, whether it be president turns out to be the far | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
right candidate Norbert Hofer or Alexander Van Der Bellen of the | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
Green Party, this vote has shown how deeply split Austria is. Those who | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
feel they want to go in a more nationalist and Eurosceptic | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
direction, people who are worried about the influx of migrants because | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
of the migrant crisis, and those who support the green candidate, who say | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
they want to be more open to Europe, they want a more federal system and | :50:51. | :50:57. | |
our sympathies are with the migrants who have come in. On Norbert Hofer, | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
you talked about in nationalist platform. Has that made up his | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
campaign platform? Is that what he has been talking about? Very much | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
so, but it is not just about the migrant crisis. A lot of observers | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
here say it is about the failure of the centre, the and parties that | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
have dominated politics here for many decades. Their messages are not | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
reverberating with the population any more. There has been a lot of | :51:32. | :51:38. | |
concern about what people see as failure to move forward on key | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
reforms here, and there is also a debate about what it means to be | :51:44. | :51:58. | |
part of Europe. Go on. This could be a signal for the rest of Europe, | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
because there are other populist nationalist movements that are | :52:03. | :52:10. | |
watching this result closely. No doubt the BBC will report on that | :52:11. | :52:12. | |
result later. Now, have you heard | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
of an iceberg home? It's not a house where the central | :52:15. | :52:16. | |
heating isn't working, but the trend in certain | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
parts of the country - but particularly in the capital - | :52:20. | :52:21. | |
for extending homes under the ground, with the extra space | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
used for private cinemas, Not everyone's a fan, | :52:25. | :52:26. | |
including the journalist I have lived in London's | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
Notting Hill, famous for its communal gardens, | :52:30. | :52:47. | |
ice cream coloured stucco terraces, and celebrity residents | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
like Richard Curtis and, most recently, my newest neighbour, | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
Hugh Grant, for three decades. Many of the houses are | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
delicate, Jerry-built, But not even media moguls' mansions | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
are big enough for some. The Royal Borough Of Kensington | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
And Chelsea receives hundreds in my book, to transform properties | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
like this into bigger, deeper houses, by excavating | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
deep underground, sometimes increasing the number | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
of floors by two or three storeys. We are living in the age | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
of the double or triple basement, the "iceberg house", | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
and the neighbours from hell. I don't blame residents who want | :53:34. | :53:35. | |
to make the most of their space, and live in airless, | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
subterranean lairs like trolls. But there is a world of difference | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
in a householder making improvements or creating an extra room, | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
than there is in a property owner creating an iceberg house | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
where there is more below These houses are simply quite | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
unsuitable for deep, subterranean excavations, | :53:54. | :54:02. | |
and all the attendant noise, traffic movements, disruption, | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
structural damage, and environmental impacts they cause for up to years | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
at a time. Of course, home owners should | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
have the right to do what they want, And they were framed over 100 years | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
ago, when nobody even thought This means councils | :54:18. | :54:27. | |
are powerless to refuse repeated It is time for a national planning | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
framework to ban almost all deep excavation in built-up areas, | :54:33. | :54:42. | |
otherwise this is just going to be # Our house, in the | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
middle of our street.# And Rachel Johnson joins | :54:47. | :54:55. | |
us here in the studio. Would you agree that this is a | :54:56. | :55:08. | |
fairly niche issue? Not really. They're almost 4500 of these | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
basements planned or being dug They're almost 4500 of these | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
London, which is a lot, especially if one is next door to you. How | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
disruptive is it? Incredibly disruptive. As you saw in the little | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
piece I did, opposite my house there is a basement that is being dug | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
underneath the middle of the street and it has been going on for two | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
years so far. Sadiq Khan, though, has said he is going to row back on | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
this. Various bills have been put through the Lords, but nothing has | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
happened. You talk of setting up a national framework. Is that | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
necessary, or do you think you could deal with it locally with issues | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
where it is really afflicting one part of the country? I would like to | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
see the presumption being against anything that goes below one story. | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
It is not only incredibly disruptive, it is also structurally | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
very dodgy, because it means you are honeycomb in the subsoil. The | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
average depth of Ireland and foundation is something like 12 | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
inches, nothing. -- the average depth of a London foundation. Sorry | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
to be so boring, but you don't know what you are doing in terms of | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
sewerage and getting other services disrupted. Do you have any sympathy | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
for Rachel's pursuit of this issue? I think there is a tension here | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
between the right of individuals to do what they like with their own | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
property, against the impact on public utility. And that needs to be | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
resolved. There need to be clear guidelines on that and if we don't | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
have guidelines in our planning law, because it was never considered when | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
those laws were being introduced, they do need to be updated. We need | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
to have clarity so that people know where they are and so that people | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
who might want to invest in building a big basement know where they would | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
stand, as do the neighbours. So if clarity is required, we should have | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
it. But our iceberg home is a big problem in your constituency? It has | :57:10. | :57:19. | |
never, ever come up in Tottenham! But I do agree with Rachel that | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
there is a collective hole. You cannot just have people willy-nilly | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
digging down. This is a problem of the super wealthy. It is a problem | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
sometimes of the overseas buyers in the London market. So it does need | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
regulation, but it is not number one. Is it also a problem of people | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
in London not being able to afford to move, because it is cheaper to | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
stay where you are, and is that a fault of government policy? I don't | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
think people in Kensington who are building two floors down have a big | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
problem with their family incomes. You may be right, but it is an | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
issue. If people are not moving, do you blame things like the changes to | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
stamp duty? They have also made it easier to begin prudence on your | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
house. So there are two reasons not to move, higher stamp duty, and I | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
have relaxed the laws surrounding things like extensions and | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
basements. I want to give credit to Kensington and Chelsea. Then number | :58:20. | :58:21. | |
of applications has halved since they limited development is to only | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
one for underground. There was one guy next to the French ambassador | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
who was doing a 6-storey extension with the carousel for his vintage | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
Ferraris. We can only dream! Thank you for coming in. | :58:38. | :58:39. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
The question was who, according to this morning's Times, | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
Tony Blair, Steve Hilton, Raul Castro or Ed Miliband? What do you | :58:46. | :58:57. | |
think? I am going with Ed Miliband. You might be right. Do you think | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
that is a good idea? Ed Miliband, who lost the last election, helping | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
Jeremy Corbyn? Give the guy a job. He is talented, why not? What is | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
your reaction? I think Jeremy Corbyn can't get enough advisers. | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
People were afraid of her political convictions - | :59:26. | :59:38. | |
Dear Mama, last night we had nearly four inches of rain. | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
People can be seen going about fetching bread and other things | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
on floating sofas or wooden bedsteads. | :59:48. | :59:51. |