24/05/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

David Cameron warns that a vote to leave the EU would increase

the cost of a family holiday abroad, in a speech to EasyJet employees.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, brands the PM "Dishonest Dave"

We'll bring you all the latest from the campaign trail.

As huge advances are made in robotics and artificial

intelligence, MPs discuss the legal and ethical issues raised

And we'll reveal what happened when a second-year art student

decided to use Jeremy Corbyn in her fine art project.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

of the programme today, American-born playwright

Let's kick off with the news that councillors in North Yorkshire have

voted to allow fracking near the village of Kirby Misperton.

It's the first fracking application to be approved since 2011.

The decision was condemned by anti-fracking protesters,

who are concerned that the controversial technique

which extracts oil or gas from rocks by pumping liquid into them

at high pressure will contaminate the water supply.

Bonnie Greer, it is being seen by some as a bit of a watershed, this

approval for fracking, do you think it is the first of many more?

Legally it isn't, because I understand there is a mine there,

but once you open this particular gate it sets out a possible

precedent for it to happen again. Fracking in America of course is big

news. It has changed the economy. It has made the country less dependent

on foreign oil, but it is a grave and big disturbance to the earth. It

has caused water problems, it has caused problems in communities.

There has been evidence of that? Absolutely and people don't like it.

The question of whether this will be something for the future or not

deserve the public debate. The fact the government has done it or made

it a fey to complete takes it away from communities to talk about how

it impacts them. The British government is in favour of fracking

because it says it will boost supply and the economy and therefore energy

security for this country, and because it is clearly a lot smaller

than the states, where fracking has been carried out, there would be

layers of regulation to make sure things like the water table not

being contaminated, that there wouldn't be tremors caused by

fracking, although of course that was the reason that an application

before was put on hold. What do you say to that? If it was highly

regulated, could it work safely? We need to stop comparing this country

to the United States, two different places. We need a better survey of

local terrain. I haven't seen anything like that. To make a

generalisation is really to take that template from America and apply

it to the UK, and I think in general that is always a bad idea. We do

need to have more investigation. I support the people of North

Yorkshire and hopefully this doesn't set a precedent.

This Thursday the Psychoactive Substances Act comes into force,

which will see a ban on so called legal highs.

The Home Office has published a handy guide for retailers on how

to deal with the new law, so our question for today is,

what might the guide prevent shopkeepers from selling

Is it whipped cream, full roasted coffee beans, herbal tea or chilli

powder. It is not obvious. At the end of the show, Bonnie

will give us the correct answer. David Cameron and Nigel Farage have

been out on the referendum campaign trail this morning with

the Prime Minister, warning that voting to leave the EU will lead

to a rise in the cost of summer holidays, and the Ukip leader

labelling the PM "Dishonest Dave" and accused him

of "talking rubbish". Here's David Cameron, speaking

to EasyJet employees in Luton. If we were to leave and the pound

were to fall, which is what most people expect and what the Treasury

forecasts, that would put up the cost of a typical holiday

for a family of four to a European It could, as Carolyn has said,

put up, actually, the cost of air travel because if you're out

of the single market, which is what those who want us

to leave think, then you would face all sorts of bureaucracy

and restrictions that Let's talk now to Norman

Smith, who is in Luton. You are in front of one of those

easy jet aeroplanes, although not jetting off for a little while. We

have now got the price of a holiday that will go up if Britain leaves

the EU, have we reached the peak, do you think, of rhetoric on doom and

gloom on both sides of what will happen if we stay or leave? I think

what we get today is a tilt in the David Cameron campaign. Yesterday

was a high watermark of Donna Rand Blitzen, sort of the dire warnings

of disaster if we leave. Now I think the picture is more consumer land.

David Cameron wants to bring it down to everyday costs to ordinary

people's lives. Yesterday we had the deficit will go up to 39 billion,

inflation will go up, we had a big economic numbers, which is fine and

dandy. The Treasury have reduced their report with lots of equations,

but in terms of getting traction with ordinary folk, it is easier to

get your head round the fact that your holiday will cost 230 quid

more. I think that is what increasingly you will see in this

campaign. He will try to draw it back to those everyday costs. I

think what we will see more of is trying to get nonpolitical people

making the argument, standing by him. Today we have the boss of

EasyJet saying really being in Europe makes our life a lot easier

in terms of costs and I think we will see more of that. Third party

figures being brought in to make the argument so it is not just the Dave

and George show, which gets you so far, but if you really want to get

traction it is better to go with third party figures. The figures you

mentioned were contested by the other side. This idea of third party

figures, I assume it will be restricting what we hear from

government figures so it will lend itself to a change in the campaign.

Yes, I wonder if even if they were allowed to produce another

terrifying report whether it would actually have that much impact

because I have this suspicion that we have may be reached doom fatigue.

We are kind of in the land of come off it, it cannot be that bad

surely. We have batted off warnings that we could face the third World

War, your wages will go down by ?800, half of you will be out of

work. We are so battered by this that we have reached the outer

limits of that and there's not much more mileage in carrying on down

that road. Even though you cannot now do that, I wonder if David

Cameron would want to continue doing that. Interestingly, David Cameron

was asked about that campaign and the negative nature of it, being

criticised by even allies like Nicola Sturgeon, but he doesn't

believe it is negative. He says he is just presenting the arguments in

a clear and frank way, but for many on the receiving end it probably

feels like that. Maybe they have been told it is working, by the

pollsters. As I mentioned earlier,

Nigel Farage is also out Here he is, speaking

from his campaign bus in Dudley. I think one of the reasons that

maybe the Remain campaign has taken a bit of a lead is not enough people

on the Leave side are making It's all well and good to say

we are going to have more money for the National Health Service,

but actually this referendum Our politicians have given away

control of our country. They have given away

control of our borders. And our message has got to be clear,

it's got to be assertive. We believe in Britain,

we believe in this country, we believe in its people,

and we want our country back. A little earlier I spoke to our

correspondent Eleanor Garnier. I asked her how the campaign was

going for Nigel Farage from where she was standing. This is a very

glamorous bus, it is the first time I have been on it, there are benches

and chairs. You can sit in the sunshine. When Nigel Farage arrived

here in Dudley, he came with blaring music and he gave a big rousing

speech from the top of the bus. I am going to pop down and I will meet

you outside in a few seconds. There were loads of people waiting for

Nigel Farage. Posters and things like that. There was a huge crowd

waiting for him and I would say this campaign has been completely

different from the one we saw from David Cameron which was controlled.

Nigel Farage says anything goes, if you want to talk to him, to get that

photo, get the selfie, get your poster signed. It does feel

different because we had a barrage of graphs and economists from the

Remain side but this has a different feel. Do you think it is about

personality politics on the Leave side? I asked Nigel Farage about

that, I said do you worry about not having big names supporting your

side? He said it is about getting out and meeting people. He said he

doesn't care who from the establishment backs of the other

side. He said he actually wanted that, he wanted people in the big

international companies to back the Remain side so it can be a

competition between people on the ground, the real people, and the

political establishment. How has the response been to that? The people

there are those already convinced of the arguments put forward by Nigel

Farage, but what about others? Before he turned up I asked a few

people if they had decided how they will vote, and a few were really

strongly committed to voting to leave the EU. They came out with

their answer quickly, but there were also people who hadn't decided how

they would vote, and there were some who said they would vote to stay in

the EU. You can imagine that all the people around me now have been

really prone leaving the EU, and on that issue of the holiday, whether

prices for holidays for a family of four would go up by hundreds of

pounds as David Cameron was saying, Nigel Farage slammed that and said

it is simply not true. He said the person to blame was David Cameron

for not reducing fees for airlines travelling around the world. He said

it is a load of rubbish what David Cameron has been saying this

morning. He has gone to the butchers around the corner, he has been to

the market here too, meeting people and shaking hands. Guessing the

flesh, I think we call it in this industry. I will let you go and take

your place on the bus. Thank you. We've been joined by the cabinet

minister and Leave supporter Theresa Villiers, and by the Remain

supporter and member of the Labour Let's start with this holidays will

become more expensive, another day of scaremongering and exaggeration

by the Remain side. I don't think it is exaggeration, it is pointing out

the implications of a leave vote. Mark Carney have said things, and he

has taken that... Is it the back of a fag paper? There doesn't see many

firm evidence. Mark Carney from the Bank of England was saying the

consequence of leaving would be the pressure on the pound, the price of

the pound would fall and that would have a huge impact on people's

holidays. Foreign holidays become more expensive, and that is what the

Prime Minister was out. There was an admission on someone on your side

that there could be that short-term shock and that sort of consequence.

We have even heard from Carolyn McCall from EasyJet who says she

believes prices of holidays and flights will go up, and this could

make a difference to people when they think about their summer

holiday. I think I can provide reassurance because the last time

the Treasury predicted an economic shock was when we were in the ERM,

predicting disaster, and interest rates being hyped. What happened

when we left the ERM, inflation came down, the economy had a huge boost

and it was followed by nearly 15 years of economic growth. Before

that happened, there was a huge hike in interest rates, but yesterday

Gerard Lyons, one of the Economist on your side, admits there is likely

to be that uncertainty and that could cause more expensive holidays

but also other consumerist issues and people will say it is not worth

taking the risk. It's important to recognise that

whatever way the vote goes there are risks involved, but it is clear to

me that the greater risks come with staying in the European Union. The

European Union is inevitably going to ask for more power and money

every year if we stay in. There is an in-built majority by the Eurozone

that can out voters on everything. The EU is enlarging. In terms of the

cost of living, it's clear that significant open-door migration from

Europe does depress wages but particularly for people in lower

skilled jobs, and that will intensify when it includes countries

like Turkey. One of those issues, on depressing wages, there is evidence

at the lower end of the scale that wages have been kept down. They had

not risen for a very long time. We know that the UK is an attractive

place for people to come and people have come here in large numbers, and

by and large, as we've seen from independent analysis, they

contribute to the local economy. They contribute, but do you accept

wages have been suppressed as a result in part from migrants coming

to the country and taking jobs at the low end of the scale and, as a

result, the wages came down? They have often come in to do jobs where

there are vacancies for them and they have contributed to them. There

have been labour shortages and if you look at agriculture and in care

homes, hospitals, the contribution of many of those migrants coming

here to this country to work, they have contributed massively to local

services and to the public exchange with the taxes they pay. Which

arguments are going to play most effectively with the public? Will it

be a consumerist argument about the money in their pocket, or will it be

more about power and sovereignty? First of all, I'm for Remain, but on

behalf of Leave, I think they have missed a trick. I think they have

played on the playing field of Remain, where they cannot win.

Remain has a lot of logic on its side. You have all of these big

financiers, and world heads, saying don't do it. The argument that they

bring out is logical. Leave's argument is about something much

deeper. It is about a feeling of liberty, and I can say this is

somebody American-born, and I'm rather giving this away, but I think

Leave hasn't done that. All of the Leave people I know, when you talk

to them in private, they are coming from a very emotional and deep place

but you don't get that in the campaign. In other words you get a

campaign where Remain is setting out something very logical and it will

make sense to people, against what a lot of Leave people feel. What do

you say to that? Conversely, you could say Boris Johnson and Nigel

Farage are out there is big personalities with a lot of passion,

but has it been lacking in the campaign generally? There is

certainly passion in the campaign. Bonnie is right to the extent to

which it has got over. The heart is, do we want to be an independent

sovereign nation again? We did manage to run our own affairs well

enough. Just take for example, the Jeremy Paxman programme, he said at

the end of it after a very balanced programme he said British national

sovereignty has been lost. The question for us is, has it been

worth it? There is no question the European Union is a political

project and we no longer have the power to make our own rules. We

should take back control of making our own laws and our own immigration

policies. The problem is this. If you make a campaign that says take

control you have to convince people that they don't have control, and

that is a very nebulous thing. But if you talk to people about not

being able to take a holiday or your grandchildren, and the Daily

Telegraph showed that people over 65 are going into Remain, and it's

because a lot of them think they do not want to deprive their grandchild

of the possibility of working in Berlin. You have to counter that

kind of argument. I know that you can, but the campaign doesn't give

that sense. What about on the Remain side, the rhetoric and this endless

barrage of figures, and even Nicola Sturgeon who is in favour of Remain

saying it is enough. Reading between the lines, it is too negative. It's

important to lay out the risks and consequences and the consumerist

argument and it is important, but alongside that I've heard the Prime

Minister and leader of the Labour Party and many other figures talk

about the fact that we are a proud, independent nation and I disagree

totally with Therese on this. We are a proud, independent nation, and for

many of us, and I hope for a majority, we see the future as being

a proud, independent Pajot a country working with others to solve common

problems and to what the common good and I think that's the difference in

the view between us and we'll hear more of that vision of the foreword

look -- towards the common good. Let's look at the polls, because

Bonnie Greer raised the Telegraph poll and it shows that Remain has a

20 point lead. We take them with a pinch of salt but it sounds like

you're struggling. We've always been the underdog and its inevitable the

establishment would line up against us. Certainly they have been talking

the country down, no doubt about it. I think we should go back to what

the Prime Minister said just a few months ago. He said I'm not one of

these people who believes that the UK cannot be a success outside of

the European Union. We can be a success and we will be a success. Do

you feel betrayed by the Prime Minister? Did he make up his mind

long before he officially announced he would campaign to remain? He has

his view on this. It's difficult for me to be on the other side of a

debate like this from a Prime Minister, but when it's a question

of whether we become an independent democracy again, I felt I had to be

on the side and I owed it to future generations to take back control and

making our own laws and in our own Parliament. But that doesn't come

through. That's my point. What a lot of people see is an anti-immigrant

message, some of it quite crude. Although that plays well in some

places. But some other places it doesn't play very well. I don't

think that's what it's about but that is what comes across. In the

next week, Leave will shift to do something else. I think the rebuttal

of that is nonsense, that doesn't make sense, see what they were

before 20 years ago, that isn't an answer to the economic argument and

the economic case. When you have the head of the Bank of England and the

IMF and most world leaders saying please don't do this, Leave has to

come up with something that either visceral or come up with figures. It

can't just say, that doesn't make any sense, we don't buy it. We still

have plenty of time view to come up with that. On turnout, just briefly,

one of the advantages I suggest for the Leave campaign is that they will

get their people out. The turnout will be good on the Leave side. The

Remain side, less certain. One of the things associated with that is

that younger people are generally more enthusiastic for the EU are

less likely to vote. You will see in the campaign going on that it will

focus on turnout. Certainly the Labour Party across the country is

now mobilising even more than it has been to try and make sure that we

turnout our vote, to make sure we maximise the turnout. But the Labour

Party is mobilised and working hard to get the vote out. Stay with us,

both of you. Now, if you're a British citizen

contemplating free movement across the European Union,

your first thought But what about the one part

of the UK where you can walk across the border

into a foreign country? Northern Ireland's still-fragile

political settlement and concerns about the implications

of a vote to leave the EU for North-South co-operation

on the island have lent an extra dimension to the referendum

campaign there. We sent our Ellie along the Irish

border to find out more. After a troubled history, a border

that's practically invisible now. This is it, the frontier

between the Republic of Ireland If a referendum resulted in a vote

to leave, this could become part of the only land border

between the UK and the EU. Those who want to leave the EU say

a common travel agreement between Northern Ireland

and the Irish Republic means that would change little,

but others insist this border could once again harden

after 23rd June. Migration is going to be

a huge issue, in terms It's also raised a really

interesting one for Northern Ireland because we get people talking

about those that may If the UK were to leave,

there'd be no possible change between the border

between the Republic of Ireland People talk about the idea

of the need to control borders to actually stop

migration, migrants flowing. Well over 23,000 people cross

the border from either side to get Many are going to or setting off

from the city of Newry, which sits four miles from

the border of the Irish Republic. You can use both pounds

and euros here. But some businesses say that cosy

working relationship The big liberating factor for us has

been freedom of movement of goods and people,

and our concern is the reinstitution And while some have said this

would be electronic, it still will involve paperwork

at some point, and that's Newry lies in the south

of County Armagh, an area known during the Troubles as bandit

country for its paramilitary There's concern now that a physical

border would not only damage the local economy,

but serve, at the very least, as an uncomfortable reminder

of the area's divided past. This vote is potentially more

important for us than the vote The importance to the peace process

of British and Irish EU What's not is the fact

that the EU has pumped more than 1.5 billion euros

into cross-community reconciliation. The Peace Bridge in Londonderry

just one such project. But the largest political parties

on each side of the community divide have very different views

on what leaving would mean. There would be an adverse impact

for north-south relations. We would see a loss to the growing

levels of North-South economic It would result in a hardening

of partition of that, If the north of Ireland votes

to remain in the EU and sections of English popular opinion vote

to come out, then we, like the Scots, should be

given an opportunity This nonsense that somehow

the world is going to end, there will be no trade,

no money for farming, there will be border controls

with no doubt machine-gun posts at the border and all of that

nonsense, is scaremongering and it Remember, a lot of these people said

exactly the same thing when we were told we wouldn't be

part of the euro. We were told this would be

disastrous for trade and for co-operation

between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic,

and for trade between the Irish Republic and the rest

of the United Kingdom. Here at Carlingford Lough,

the town of Warrenpoint in Northern Ireland is separated

from Carlingford in the Republic No one knows what the political

landscape would look like if we vote to leave the EU,

but for at least one part of the UK, the consequences could be felt

a lot closer to home. And the Northern Ireland Secretary

Theresa Villiers and the shadow Northern Ireland Secretary Vernon

Coaker are still with me. If the UK votes to leave the EU, it

is one land border with the EU, and that would be with the Republic of

Ireland. Can you guarantee nothing would change along the border when

it comes to controls and checks and freedom of travel? I can guarantee

we still have an open border and it would be as free for goods and

people as it is now. The Common travel area, which enables Irish

citizens and UK citizens to pass freely... Is that in legislation?

Yes, it is. It survived the Civil War and war and it survived 30 years

of the troubles. And it will survive a vote in Brexit and to suggest it

wouldn't is scaremongering. So she is saying it would stay the same

completely? It existed when Ireland and the UK were not members of the

EU, and it existed while they were, but what it has never been, the

Common travel area, is when Britain and Ireland on different

arrangements. You would have Ireland in the EU and the whole of the U --

UK not in the EU. Why couldn't you still have the freedom of movement?

Let's say that freedom of movement becomes not just between Ireland and

the UK, a big queen -- becomes between the whole of the EU and the

UK. So people from Italy, Spain, Poland, wherever, Romania, they fly

into Dublin, and then they just walk straight across the border and they

have entry into the rest of the UK. Part of the Leave campaign is we do

not want freedom of movement of people. There is an illogicality to

it that raises questions about what happens. What do you say to that

point? We would be relying on Irish customs and immigration to monitor

migrants from the EU, and you want to control migration, and they would

have the potential to enter the UK undetected, if you say the borders

are open. They would certainly be risks to be

managed but we already face them now. Where do we face them now at

the moment because on the French side we have officials working on

their side and our own immigration officials so the risks would be

high, wouldn't they? Effectively our external border is also the Republic

of Ireland's border so we already depend on the authorities in the

Republic of Ireland to play part of the role in policing our borders. I

think the idea of thousands of French, German EU citizens wanting

to come to the UK across the Irish border is fanciful. The reason why

there are significant population movements at the moment is because

of free movement rules. If we were to amend them, we wouldn't see the

mass population flows we do now. And that would be logical if you were

voting to leave, you would take the rules to that point which you could

stop people coming across in the way you envisage. All I'm saying is the

border becomes not a border within the EU, it becomes a border... I

understand. Clearly that will have to be managed. Theresa has said

there has to be risks that will be managed. Isn't it a bigger risk to

have Turkey joining the EU? It will have a significant impact. The

government is committed to looking at the issue and re-energising the

talks of Turkish accession. It is always an issue that is raised.

Turkey will not join the EU within the foreseeable future. It is a red

herring you throw on the table. It is our responsibility think not just

about the EU today but what it will be like in ten years, 20 years. We

have the responsibility to think to the long-term. Just because it might

not happen for a few years, it doesn't mean it is not a problem.

This is the one chance people in the UK have is to leave the EU.

Otherwise we are stuck in this organisation probably for decades to

come and we will face those risks when Turkey joins.

Does Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party have a problem with Englishness?

It's a question posed by former Shadow Cabinet minister

Tristram Hunt in a new collection of essays penned by Labour MPs

and less successful candidates from the last General Election

and some of the comments might come as a shock to its

The debate about Labour and Englishness was partly inspired

by this photo, tweeted by the now Shadow Defence

by this photo, tweeted by the now Shadow Defence Secretary Emily

Thornberry during the Rochester by-election, which was

And Tristram Hunt has joined us in the studio. Labour is in much bigger

trouble electorally in Wales and Scotland. Yes, it is almost as if we

had three different general election is happening on the same day in

England, Scotland and Wales, and we face a big, historic challenge in

Scotland, but what we are also seeing, and this was the nature of

the collection of essays I brought together with fears over a cultural

disconnect with Englishness. The reason this is important is because

more people are identifying themselves as English than British,

and if we don't feel we are on the same side as them in terms of their

identity and values, the Labour Party will not be voted for. You say

nursing this is essential, what does it mean? It means pride in English

history, it is about making sure we have a big, bold devolution package.

We have this mismatch in power, many people in England feel, between the

devolution settlement in Scotland and Wales, and the Labour Party in

particular is a much more British party isn't often seen enough as on

the side of those who have very strong feelings about their Ingush

identity. Is he right, in terms of the diagnosis of the problem for the

Labour Party and do you back this idea? As someone who is married to

an Englishman and has lived here half my life, I understand what you

mean and I can maybe talk about what Englishness is, but what we have to

be careful about is this concept of England becomes changed in every

generation. It is in fact on some levels invented. The feeling of

Englishness in some ways, and I'm just saying this as someone watching

it and living with an Englishman, becomes a reaction as opposed to a

fact. If the Labour Party... And I take your point, if the Labour Party

is going to appeal to England it has to define what England is. The

notion of the flag of St George has not been a positive symbol of

England for the last 30 years. Was that an mistake by Emily Thornberry,

seeming to mark what is seen as the representative of England? She used

sub textual feeling about that flag. She made a grave mistake and it was

an insult as well, but the Labour Party can talk about what England

is. Suzy stride says one person opened the door and said, I am a

white, working-class heterosexual English person on benefit, the

Labour Party is not for people like me. Have they given up on these

people in favour of something else? It is devastating if people think

that. If our reputation is such that mainstream white English voters feel

that the Labour Party isn't for them, then building the kind of

progressive coalition that we want to build is immediately crippled.

Bonnie is right about this question of English identity. There is an

interesting historical debate about the nature of Englishness, and

whether there was a codified sense of Englishness more than British

nurse. As we see Britishness ebbing, does this Englishness ideal come

back? For the man in Harlow, if he feels the Labour Party is not on the

side of English people, and this is what was so problematic about the

2015 election, because we have this type team between Nicola Sturgeon

and David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon saying the Labour Party isn't on the

side of the Scottish and David Cameron saying it isn't on the side

of the English. It is not about England, it is about the definition

of England. England is everyone who is English so therefore the Labour

Party has to embrace this multifarious idea of England as

opposed to it being... Right, and there was this lovely new book on

Islamist culture within England in the 16th century, and how these

ideas within England develop. If we are not on the pitch, Bonnie, if we

are not negotiating and contesting and having pride in this, then you

end up with the politics we have seen in Austria. You end up with far

right politics, you don't have a progressive account of battery and

England, and to show that we love England then the right taker. Do you

think there is a two tea Labour Party, the London elite and the rest

of the country? I think this trend has been going. The book was about

the 2015 election but in local elections we saw Labour doing well

in London, Sadiq Khan brilliant, doing well in Norwich and Bristol,

but in Nuneaton, Tamworth, Middle England, the marginal seats, in

communities who are feeling under pressure by pressure and

globalisation and socioeconomic change... Labour did gain some seats

in England in those local elections we just had. We lost 20. I take your

point, but it did gain some seat. Normally opposition seats gained

130. We gained in areas where there is a more confident, Metropolitan

identity and we are under pressure in areas where white working-class

voters, in areas like Portsmouth and Southampton, feel that the Labour

Party is not speaking to their values. Does Jeremy Corbyn get this?

I don't know if Jeremy Corbyn get this. Do you not up to him about it?

I have sent the book to him. One theory is that Jeremy Corbyn's

approach to the defence industry doubles down on this idea of

Englishness and the white working class communities. We were hurt in

Portsmouth to the Labour Party's approach to these vital industries.

But Labour must not react to an idea of England. England is a big idea,

and I think Labour should embrace the big idea of England which is

multicultural. Look at Shakespeare. That tells you what London was in

the 16th century. And the Tempest is a story as much about the West

Indies and the Caribbean as it is about England. England is a big

idea. Thank you very much. Our famous love of dogs seems

to be having unintended Footage from the BBC's Panorama

programme shows cages in Ireland filled with hundreds

of sickly dogs, ready to be As the law stands, if someone owns

a council pet shop licence they're OK to source

dogs from elsewhere. Campaigners say enough

is enough and they want Today, celebrities,

MPs and charities are gathering outside the Houses

of Parliament calling for the Government to ban the sale

of puppies in pet shops I am with the vet Mark Abraham, and

Jody Marshall who needs no introduction, but you owned six

dogs. What is your reaction to this trade, is it visceral cruelty?

Definitely cruel in so many ways. Not only are the dogs very sick,

unhealthy and mistreated, kept in tiny boxes and used literally just

for breeding over and over again, but it is cruel on the owner because

when you go to buy a puppy from a puppy farm, you will end up spending

thousands on vet bills because the dog is so sick. Many people will say

it is cruel but it is regulated and inspected by local authorities. Many

of these people say I am not breaking the law. Absolutely, and

that is why we need the government to answer for themselves. Why is

this legal? Why is it allowed to happen? Mark will tell you, it is

absolute, just... You have asked the question for me and I will get him

to answer. Why is it legal? A law regulates this, are you calling for

it to be banned? We want the government to follow its own advice.

It quite clearly says on the website that puppies should be seen with

their mother. Why are they then allowing them to be sold without

their mother. The public need to choose responsibly. How can they?

Lucy is getting in on the action. A lot of this is emotional. You are

saying is a vet you know she was damaged. You don't need to be a vet

to see how damaged she was. Lucy was a rescue Cavalier, battery farmed.

Puppies were sold by licensed dealers... She is over breeding? She

has so many health issues. Luckily she has been rehabilitated, she is

still scared, still has separation anxiety, but the whole puppy farm

industry relies on the third-party trade and a lack of transparency.

Very quickly, do you think this has even been on the government's radar?

In 2014 we had a debate in the main chamber for the banning on the sale

of puppies without their mothers, eliminate third-party sales. It was

a backbench victory, but the government front bench said no,

let's keep things as they are. It is not OK, we need to change things

immediately so people can either buy directly from the breeder or

preferably go to a rescue centre. Are you getting a big response about

this? Everyone feels the same. If we all suddenly started

eating dog meat in this country there would be uproar. Everyone

would go crazy. What is happening with these dogs in puppy farms is

probably worse because they are being kept alive to have a horrible

life. Yes, I think the dog wanted to be

elsewhere. Driverless cars, spaceports -

last week's Queen's Speech had all the makings

of a science fiction novel. But this seemed to be a snapshot

of Britain's future in modern technology and artificial

intelligence, and one that MPs So much so the Commons Science

Technology committee is now conducting an inquiry into the UK

robotics industry to consider the social, legal and ethical issues

raised by developments in the field. Let's have a look at they kind

of thing they're talking about. What you can see here is footage

from Boston Dynamics in the States. It's a robotics firm

owned by Google. It created a humanoid

that is able operate outdoors It uses sensors to avoid obstacles,

assess the terrain, help with navigation

and manipulate objects. It can also withstand bullying

and still achieve its task. With me now is Dr Rob Buckingham,

director of RACE - which stands for Remote Applications

in Challenging Environments - set up He's giving evidence

to the Select Committee Welcome to the Daily Politics. It

looks exciting, but there are ethical issues here at the core.

Yes, of course. This is something which is going to hit us over the

next ten, 2050 years. Computers are getting more and more powerful and

robotics is just a part of the trend. We have to be really aware of

these issues and give it the attention it deserves. What does it

mean? Should we be scared? No, I don't think we should be scared.

When we wrote the strategy a couple of years ago we said that these are

just the next generation of smart tools, tools that help people, that

create jobs, create wealth, solve problems and we shouldn't really be

focusing too much on the existential stuff. It is great science-fiction.

But is it just science-fiction? You talk about artificial intelligence

and you look at the robot, and you think what about if they start to be

able to play computer games and they don't need direction from humans.

Eventually, in a hundred years, they can talk to each other, but I love

the idea of robots. I love them, I think they are fantastic and I think

what they will do is free up human beings from drudgery. They will also

allow for every human displaced by a robot there should be a programme by

which every human is retrained for a job of the future. In fact, the

robot can teach the human that job. That is what is so exciting about

this. We can learn from robots a lot about our bodies, our minds. They

will go in and take care of jobs we can't do, clearing mines. Except the

key in your little speech there about robots was actually about the

fact that people need to be retrained, and would people be

retrained? If people are worried their jobs are being taken and there

isn't anything there to do customer that is a constant process. Society

does not stand still. So absolutely Ahki message to the politicians and

educators is, get with it. -- a key message. Get to grips with science,

technology, engineering and maths. We have to have those skills if we

are going to be an economy that makes money, generate jobs, all that

stuff, we have to be in that area. Robotics is a key part of that. Do

you agree with Bonnie that it will be 150 years? It doesn't matter

about the time. It will happen, and then the key thing is, what we do

now? How do we prepare for that in a calm, calculator, open, transparent

way? What the government be doing instead of opening free schools and

academies is that it needs to set up programmes in schools in which

people are taught STEM. It is the most important thing a young person

can do. Women need to get more involved in STEM. Forget about

robots, these things will happen. We need to get smarter. Instead of

rushing around trying to control people we need to get a unified

school system that teaches people STEM. It has to come from the top.

When do you think this will happen? A change is visual for everybody.

Autonomous people is the most visual thing. Driverless cars for example.

It is in our space. The Internet we don't think of being in our space,

it is in the digital space, somewhere else. Whereas robotics is

physical and comes into our space, our home, our heart -- driveways.

That is why it is important to the UK. We are leading in this area. Is

the UK leading? We are doing stuff here that is not being done

elsewhere. And it's a valuable export commodity. If we can take the

lead, get our schools on board and stop all silliness, getting to STEM.

We have the first language in the world and we could be the export

leaders in this. The pictures we were showing their, the robot being

kicked over, is that the sort of thing you are developing? Is it a

publicity stunt? It is an awesome video. And it just raises huge

questions. It makes you smile. Why is that? We are human beings and

when we start thinking about humanity and humanoids we think,

wow, it's exciting. Immediately we think, is that robot in pain? I

would put money on the fact that someone cared in some estate is

sitting there, seen that, thinking I know what to do here. That kid needs

to be released into a school system that allows him or her to get into

STEM and that is the world of the future. How radical does the

education system need to change in order to make way for this? I'll

give you a very specific example. We just got given ?50 million to set up

an apprentice training school, which is really good. A apprentices. We

want to take all of those apprentices through my centre -- all

apprentices. That is a way to embed that stuff into training. From

16-year-olds all the way through, those guys and girls going through

that process are hands-on, playing with software and electronics. They

should be receptive to it. They love it. Culture and art in there and you

have a perfect human being. You should go and work for him, Bonnie.

You would be welcome. Thanks. Jeremy Corbyn has given

lots of talks at universities and other venues around the country

since becoming the Leader They've all been pretty exciting,

like this one, for example, Give a big East Midlands welcome

to the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn at De Montfort

University in Leicester last year. Now, students and Labour activists

at Lancaster University thought they were in for a similar event

a talk by Jeremy Corbyn But, when they got there,

they were confronted not by the Leader of the Opposition

but by a cardboard box. It was all part of an undergraduate

fine art project. And the student behind it,

Lucie Carter, is here to tell us more and the Culture

Minister, Ed Vaizey. First of all, what we doing? I've

been developing my work for a while in the studio and this is the final

budget that I came up with. Can we have a look at it? There it is. And

the idea behind it was what exactly? It's a combination of two series

that I have looked at. One of them is looking at the play element in

culture, it's a book and I can't remember the name of the author. And

it's combination of object orientated ontology as well. What is

object-oriented ontology? Try and think of the simplest way. Please

do. What is it there? It is not only about the piece itself, it is about

you. So those who and the call they did the piece, and that was the call

and I think it's very exciting. Way surprised it took off, and 500

people were due to attend, so were you surprised by the response?

Absolutely. I didn't think it would be as big as it became, so I was

shocked. That you got into trouble? Not necessarily. We handled things

internally in the union. What about the local MP? How did she respond?

She called me on the day I made the event and she asked me to delete the

event which I thought, fair enough. So I did. Did you? Do you think she

should have done? She may have taken it as a piece of hostility towards

Jeremy Corbyn but you could turn it round the other way and say even a

box with the name Jeremy Corbyn can potentially attract 500 people to

come and view it. Could you attract 500 people in person? I don't think

I could. I don't want to in any way diminish your artwork, but this is

the STEM box, and we thought we would do one to you. What I want to

know now is what is happening to the viewing figures? -- the Ed Vaizey

box. The font is wrong. What should it be? That is the font. What is

wrong with it? The font is also the art as well. It's not a scribble

leafing. I think you'll find we spent a very long time this. Not

really. Famously Roy Hattersley was replaced with a tub of lard on have

I got News for you. So I think the BBC led the way for you to open the

pathway for this piece of art. Are you open-minded to this sort of

thing? This is the centenary of Dadaism and are looking at the world

and mocking the world in some ways, and next year will be the centenary

of the Fountain piece by Duchamp, and he said because it was art he

said it was art. It is art and it is art for all the reasons that you

said it is art. The people who don't get it, that is art as well. The MP

who decided to get on your case is part of the art piece as well. What

are you going to do next? I actually don't know. When you do, can you

come on and bring it, and bring Ed Vaizey as well. Very quickly you can

help Bonnie Greer with the answer to the quiz. I don't think we've got

time to do the quiz. I will have to say thank you to all of our guests

to day. Thanks to Bonnie Greer

and all my guests. I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow

with Andrew for live coverage The One O'clock News is starting

over on BBC One now.