24/05/2016 Daily Politics


24/05/2016

Vote Leave campaigner Theresa Villiers and Labour's Vernon Coaker discuss whether leaving the EU could adversely impact the cost of a family holiday.


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

David Cameron warns that a vote to leave the EU would increase

:00:40.:00:45.

the cost of a family holiday abroad, in a speech to EasyJet employees.

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Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, brands the PM "Dishonest Dave"

:00:50.:00:52.

We'll bring you all the latest from the campaign trail.

:00:53.:00:59.

As huge advances are made in robotics and artificial

:01:00.:01:01.

intelligence, MPs discuss the legal and ethical issues raised

:01:02.:01:03.

And we'll reveal what happened when a second-year art student

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decided to use Jeremy Corbyn in her fine art project.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, American-born playwright

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Let's kick off with the news that councillors in North Yorkshire have

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voted to allow fracking near the village of Kirby Misperton.

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It's the first fracking application to be approved since 2011.

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The decision was condemned by anti-fracking protesters,

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who are concerned that the controversial technique

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which extracts oil or gas from rocks by pumping liquid into them

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at high pressure will contaminate the water supply.

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Bonnie Greer, it is being seen by some as a bit of a watershed, this

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approval for fracking, do you think it is the first of many more?

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Legally it isn't, because I understand there is a mine there,

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but once you open this particular gate it sets out a possible

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precedent for it to happen again. Fracking in America of course is big

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news. It has changed the economy. It has made the country less dependent

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on foreign oil, but it is a grave and big disturbance to the earth. It

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has caused water problems, it has caused problems in communities.

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There has been evidence of that? Absolutely and people don't like it.

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The question of whether this will be something for the future or not

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deserve the public debate. The fact the government has done it or made

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it a fey to complete takes it away from communities to talk about how

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it impacts them. The British government is in favour of fracking

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because it says it will boost supply and the economy and therefore energy

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security for this country, and because it is clearly a lot smaller

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than the states, where fracking has been carried out, there would be

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layers of regulation to make sure things like the water table not

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being contaminated, that there wouldn't be tremors caused by

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fracking, although of course that was the reason that an application

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before was put on hold. What do you say to that? If it was highly

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regulated, could it work safely? We need to stop comparing this country

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to the United States, two different places. We need a better survey of

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local terrain. I haven't seen anything like that. To make a

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generalisation is really to take that template from America and apply

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it to the UK, and I think in general that is always a bad idea. We do

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need to have more investigation. I support the people of North

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Yorkshire and hopefully this doesn't set a precedent.

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This Thursday the Psychoactive Substances Act comes into force,

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which will see a ban on so called legal highs.

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The Home Office has published a handy guide for retailers on how

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to deal with the new law, so our question for today is,

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what might the guide prevent shopkeepers from selling

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Is it whipped cream, full roasted coffee beans, herbal tea or chilli

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powder. It is not obvious. At the end of the show, Bonnie

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will give us the correct answer. David Cameron and Nigel Farage have

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been out on the referendum campaign trail this morning with

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the Prime Minister, warning that voting to leave the EU will lead

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to a rise in the cost of summer holidays, and the Ukip leader

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labelling the PM "Dishonest Dave" and accused him

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of "talking rubbish". Here's David Cameron, speaking

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to EasyJet employees in Luton. If we were to leave and the pound

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were to fall, which is what most people expect and what the Treasury

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forecasts, that would put up the cost of a typical holiday

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for a family of four to a European It could, as Carolyn has said,

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put up, actually, the cost of air travel because if you're out

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of the single market, which is what those who want us

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to leave think, then you would face all sorts of bureaucracy

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and restrictions that Let's talk now to Norman

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Smith, who is in Luton. You are in front of one of those

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easy jet aeroplanes, although not jetting off for a little while. We

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have now got the price of a holiday that will go up if Britain leaves

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the EU, have we reached the peak, do you think, of rhetoric on doom and

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gloom on both sides of what will happen if we stay or leave? I think

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what we get today is a tilt in the David Cameron campaign. Yesterday

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was a high watermark of Donna Rand Blitzen, sort of the dire warnings

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of disaster if we leave. Now I think the picture is more consumer land.

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David Cameron wants to bring it down to everyday costs to ordinary

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people's lives. Yesterday we had the deficit will go up to 39 billion,

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inflation will go up, we had a big economic numbers, which is fine and

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dandy. The Treasury have reduced their report with lots of equations,

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but in terms of getting traction with ordinary folk, it is easier to

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get your head round the fact that your holiday will cost 230 quid

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more. I think that is what increasingly you will see in this

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campaign. He will try to draw it back to those everyday costs. I

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think what we will see more of is trying to get nonpolitical people

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making the argument, standing by him. Today we have the boss of

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EasyJet saying really being in Europe makes our life a lot easier

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in terms of costs and I think we will see more of that. Third party

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figures being brought in to make the argument so it is not just the Dave

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and George show, which gets you so far, but if you really want to get

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traction it is better to go with third party figures. The figures you

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mentioned were contested by the other side. This idea of third party

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figures, I assume it will be restricting what we hear from

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government figures so it will lend itself to a change in the campaign.

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Yes, I wonder if even if they were allowed to produce another

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terrifying report whether it would actually have that much impact

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because I have this suspicion that we have may be reached doom fatigue.

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We are kind of in the land of come off it, it cannot be that bad

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surely. We have batted off warnings that we could face the third World

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War, your wages will go down by ?800, half of you will be out of

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work. We are so battered by this that we have reached the outer

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limits of that and there's not much more mileage in carrying on down

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that road. Even though you cannot now do that, I wonder if David

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Cameron would want to continue doing that. Interestingly, David Cameron

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was asked about that campaign and the negative nature of it, being

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criticised by even allies like Nicola Sturgeon, but he doesn't

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believe it is negative. He says he is just presenting the arguments in

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a clear and frank way, but for many on the receiving end it probably

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feels like that. Maybe they have been told it is working, by the

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pollsters. As I mentioned earlier,

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Nigel Farage is also out Here he is, speaking

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from his campaign bus in Dudley. I think one of the reasons that

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maybe the Remain campaign has taken a bit of a lead is not enough people

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on the Leave side are making It's all well and good to say

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we are going to have more money for the National Health Service,

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but actually this referendum Our politicians have given away

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control of our country. They have given away

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control of our borders. And our message has got to be clear,

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it's got to be assertive. We believe in Britain,

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we believe in this country, we believe in its people,

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and we want our country back. A little earlier I spoke to our

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correspondent Eleanor Garnier. I asked her how the campaign was

:10:10.:10:22.

going for Nigel Farage from where she was standing. This is a very

:10:23.:10:30.

glamorous bus, it is the first time I have been on it, there are benches

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and chairs. You can sit in the sunshine. When Nigel Farage arrived

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here in Dudley, he came with blaring music and he gave a big rousing

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speech from the top of the bus. I am going to pop down and I will meet

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you outside in a few seconds. There were loads of people waiting for

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Nigel Farage. Posters and things like that. There was a huge crowd

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waiting for him and I would say this campaign has been completely

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different from the one we saw from David Cameron which was controlled.

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Nigel Farage says anything goes, if you want to talk to him, to get that

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photo, get the selfie, get your poster signed. It does feel

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different because we had a barrage of graphs and economists from the

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Remain side but this has a different feel. Do you think it is about

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personality politics on the Leave side? I asked Nigel Farage about

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that, I said do you worry about not having big names supporting your

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side? He said it is about getting out and meeting people. He said he

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doesn't care who from the establishment backs of the other

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side. He said he actually wanted that, he wanted people in the big

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international companies to back the Remain side so it can be a

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competition between people on the ground, the real people, and the

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political establishment. How has the response been to that? The people

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there are those already convinced of the arguments put forward by Nigel

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Farage, but what about others? Before he turned up I asked a few

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people if they had decided how they will vote, and a few were really

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strongly committed to voting to leave the EU. They came out with

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their answer quickly, but there were also people who hadn't decided how

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they would vote, and there were some who said they would vote to stay in

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the EU. You can imagine that all the people around me now have been

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really prone leaving the EU, and on that issue of the holiday, whether

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prices for holidays for a family of four would go up by hundreds of

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pounds as David Cameron was saying, Nigel Farage slammed that and said

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it is simply not true. He said the person to blame was David Cameron

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for not reducing fees for airlines travelling around the world. He said

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it is a load of rubbish what David Cameron has been saying this

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morning. He has gone to the butchers around the corner, he has been to

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the market here too, meeting people and shaking hands. Guessing the

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flesh, I think we call it in this industry. I will let you go and take

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your place on the bus. Thank you. We've been joined by the cabinet

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minister and Leave supporter Theresa Villiers, and by the Remain

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supporter and member of the Labour Let's start with this holidays will

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become more expensive, another day of scaremongering and exaggeration

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by the Remain side. I don't think it is exaggeration, it is pointing out

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the implications of a leave vote. Mark Carney have said things, and he

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has taken that... Is it the back of a fag paper? There doesn't see many

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firm evidence. Mark Carney from the Bank of England was saying the

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consequence of leaving would be the pressure on the pound, the price of

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the pound would fall and that would have a huge impact on people's

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holidays. Foreign holidays become more expensive, and that is what the

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Prime Minister was out. There was an admission on someone on your side

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that there could be that short-term shock and that sort of consequence.

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We have even heard from Carolyn McCall from EasyJet who says she

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believes prices of holidays and flights will go up, and this could

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make a difference to people when they think about their summer

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holiday. I think I can provide reassurance because the last time

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the Treasury predicted an economic shock was when we were in the ERM,

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predicting disaster, and interest rates being hyped. What happened

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when we left the ERM, inflation came down, the economy had a huge boost

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and it was followed by nearly 15 years of economic growth. Before

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that happened, there was a huge hike in interest rates, but yesterday

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Gerard Lyons, one of the Economist on your side, admits there is likely

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to be that uncertainty and that could cause more expensive holidays

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but also other consumerist issues and people will say it is not worth

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taking the risk. It's important to recognise that

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whatever way the vote goes there are risks involved, but it is clear to

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me that the greater risks come with staying in the European Union. The

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European Union is inevitably going to ask for more power and money

:15:59.:16:02.

every year if we stay in. There is an in-built majority by the Eurozone

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that can out voters on everything. The EU is enlarging. In terms of the

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cost of living, it's clear that significant open-door migration from

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Europe does depress wages but particularly for people in lower

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skilled jobs, and that will intensify when it includes countries

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like Turkey. One of those issues, on depressing wages, there is evidence

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at the lower end of the scale that wages have been kept down. They had

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not risen for a very long time. We know that the UK is an attractive

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place for people to come and people have come here in large numbers, and

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by and large, as we've seen from independent analysis, they

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contribute to the local economy. They contribute, but do you accept

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wages have been suppressed as a result in part from migrants coming

:16:52.:16:54.

to the country and taking jobs at the low end of the scale and, as a

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result, the wages came down? They have often come in to do jobs where

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there are vacancies for them and they have contributed to them. There

:17:03.:17:10.

have been labour shortages and if you look at agriculture and in care

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homes, hospitals, the contribution of many of those migrants coming

:17:13.:17:16.

here to this country to work, they have contributed massively to local

:17:17.:17:21.

services and to the public exchange with the taxes they pay. Which

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arguments are going to play most effectively with the public? Will it

:17:26.:17:30.

be a consumerist argument about the money in their pocket, or will it be

:17:31.:17:34.

more about power and sovereignty? First of all, I'm for Remain, but on

:17:35.:17:43.

behalf of Leave, I think they have missed a trick. I think they have

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played on the playing field of Remain, where they cannot win.

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Remain has a lot of logic on its side. You have all of these big

:17:57.:18:02.

financiers, and world heads, saying don't do it. The argument that they

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bring out is logical. Leave's argument is about something much

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deeper. It is about a feeling of liberty, and I can say this is

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somebody American-born, and I'm rather giving this away, but I think

:18:18.:18:23.

Leave hasn't done that. All of the Leave people I know, when you talk

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to them in private, they are coming from a very emotional and deep place

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but you don't get that in the campaign. In other words you get a

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campaign where Remain is setting out something very logical and it will

:18:37.:18:42.

make sense to people, against what a lot of Leave people feel. What do

:18:43.:18:46.

you say to that? Conversely, you could say Boris Johnson and Nigel

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Farage are out there is big personalities with a lot of passion,

:18:50.:18:52.

but has it been lacking in the campaign generally? There is

:18:53.:18:56.

certainly passion in the campaign. Bonnie is right to the extent to

:18:57.:19:02.

which it has got over. The heart is, do we want to be an independent

:19:03.:19:08.

sovereign nation again? We did manage to run our own affairs well

:19:09.:19:15.

enough. Just take for example, the Jeremy Paxman programme, he said at

:19:16.:19:19.

the end of it after a very balanced programme he said British national

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sovereignty has been lost. The question for us is, has it been

:19:23.:19:26.

worth it? There is no question the European Union is a political

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project and we no longer have the power to make our own rules. We

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should take back control of making our own laws and our own immigration

:19:35.:19:38.

policies. The problem is this. If you make a campaign that says take

:19:39.:19:43.

control you have to convince people that they don't have control, and

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that is a very nebulous thing. But if you talk to people about not

:19:49.:19:52.

being able to take a holiday or your grandchildren, and the Daily

:19:53.:19:56.

Telegraph showed that people over 65 are going into Remain, and it's

:19:57.:19:59.

because a lot of them think they do not want to deprive their grandchild

:20:00.:20:02.

of the possibility of working in Berlin. You have to counter that

:20:03.:20:07.

kind of argument. I know that you can, but the campaign doesn't give

:20:08.:20:12.

that sense. What about on the Remain side, the rhetoric and this endless

:20:13.:20:18.

barrage of figures, and even Nicola Sturgeon who is in favour of Remain

:20:19.:20:23.

saying it is enough. Reading between the lines, it is too negative. It's

:20:24.:20:29.

important to lay out the risks and consequences and the consumerist

:20:30.:20:33.

argument and it is important, but alongside that I've heard the Prime

:20:34.:20:36.

Minister and leader of the Labour Party and many other figures talk

:20:37.:20:39.

about the fact that we are a proud, independent nation and I disagree

:20:40.:20:44.

totally with Therese on this. We are a proud, independent nation, and for

:20:45.:20:48.

many of us, and I hope for a majority, we see the future as being

:20:49.:20:53.

a proud, independent Pajot a country working with others to solve common

:20:54.:20:56.

problems and to what the common good and I think that's the difference in

:20:57.:20:59.

the view between us and we'll hear more of that vision of the foreword

:21:00.:21:05.

look -- towards the common good. Let's look at the polls, because

:21:06.:21:11.

Bonnie Greer raised the Telegraph poll and it shows that Remain has a

:21:12.:21:15.

20 point lead. We take them with a pinch of salt but it sounds like

:21:16.:21:20.

you're struggling. We've always been the underdog and its inevitable the

:21:21.:21:24.

establishment would line up against us. Certainly they have been talking

:21:25.:21:29.

the country down, no doubt about it. I think we should go back to what

:21:30.:21:32.

the Prime Minister said just a few months ago. He said I'm not one of

:21:33.:21:37.

these people who believes that the UK cannot be a success outside of

:21:38.:21:40.

the European Union. We can be a success and we will be a success. Do

:21:41.:21:44.

you feel betrayed by the Prime Minister? Did he make up his mind

:21:45.:21:48.

long before he officially announced he would campaign to remain? He has

:21:49.:21:54.

his view on this. It's difficult for me to be on the other side of a

:21:55.:21:58.

debate like this from a Prime Minister, but when it's a question

:21:59.:22:02.

of whether we become an independent democracy again, I felt I had to be

:22:03.:22:07.

on the side and I owed it to future generations to take back control and

:22:08.:22:12.

making our own laws and in our own Parliament. But that doesn't come

:22:13.:22:16.

through. That's my point. What a lot of people see is an anti-immigrant

:22:17.:22:20.

message, some of it quite crude. Although that plays well in some

:22:21.:22:27.

places. But some other places it doesn't play very well. I don't

:22:28.:22:30.

think that's what it's about but that is what comes across. In the

:22:31.:22:35.

next week, Leave will shift to do something else. I think the rebuttal

:22:36.:22:39.

of that is nonsense, that doesn't make sense, see what they were

:22:40.:22:43.

before 20 years ago, that isn't an answer to the economic argument and

:22:44.:22:48.

the economic case. When you have the head of the Bank of England and the

:22:49.:22:51.

IMF and most world leaders saying please don't do this, Leave has to

:22:52.:22:58.

come up with something that either visceral or come up with figures. It

:22:59.:23:01.

can't just say, that doesn't make any sense, we don't buy it. We still

:23:02.:23:06.

have plenty of time view to come up with that. On turnout, just briefly,

:23:07.:23:11.

one of the advantages I suggest for the Leave campaign is that they will

:23:12.:23:15.

get their people out. The turnout will be good on the Leave side. The

:23:16.:23:21.

Remain side, less certain. One of the things associated with that is

:23:22.:23:28.

that younger people are generally more enthusiastic for the EU are

:23:29.:23:32.

less likely to vote. You will see in the campaign going on that it will

:23:33.:23:39.

focus on turnout. Certainly the Labour Party across the country is

:23:40.:23:42.

now mobilising even more than it has been to try and make sure that we

:23:43.:23:49.

turnout our vote, to make sure we maximise the turnout. But the Labour

:23:50.:23:54.

Party is mobilised and working hard to get the vote out. Stay with us,

:23:55.:23:56.

both of you. Now, if you're a British citizen

:23:57.:23:57.

contemplating free movement across the European Union,

:23:58.:23:59.

your first thought But what about the one part

:24:00.:24:01.

of the UK where you can walk across the border

:24:02.:24:07.

into a foreign country? Northern Ireland's still-fragile

:24:08.:24:09.

political settlement and concerns about the implications

:24:10.:24:10.

of a vote to leave the EU for North-South co-operation

:24:11.:24:13.

on the island have lent an extra dimension to the referendum

:24:14.:24:15.

campaign there. We sent our Ellie along the Irish

:24:16.:24:17.

border to find out more. After a troubled history, a border

:24:18.:24:24.

that's practically invisible now. This is it, the frontier

:24:25.:24:37.

between the Republic of Ireland If a referendum resulted in a vote

:24:38.:24:39.

to leave, this could become part of the only land border

:24:40.:24:47.

between the UK and the EU. Those who want to leave the EU say

:24:48.:24:55.

a common travel agreement between Northern Ireland

:24:56.:24:59.

and the Irish Republic means that would change little,

:25:00.:25:01.

but others insist this border could once again harden

:25:02.:25:09.

after 23rd June. Migration is going to be

:25:10.:25:11.

a huge issue, in terms It's also raised a really

:25:12.:25:13.

interesting one for Northern Ireland because we get people talking

:25:14.:25:17.

about those that may If the UK were to leave,

:25:18.:25:19.

there'd be no possible change between the border

:25:20.:25:23.

between the Republic of Ireland People talk about the idea

:25:24.:25:25.

of the need to control borders to actually stop

:25:26.:25:30.

migration, migrants flowing. Well over 23,000 people cross

:25:31.:25:32.

the border from either side to get Many are going to or setting off

:25:33.:25:37.

from the city of Newry, which sits four miles from

:25:38.:25:41.

the border of the Irish Republic. You can use both pounds

:25:42.:25:45.

and euros here. But some businesses say that cosy

:25:46.:25:47.

working relationship The big liberating factor for us has

:25:48.:25:49.

been freedom of movement of goods and people,

:25:50.:25:55.

and our concern is the reinstitution And while some have said this

:25:56.:25:58.

would be electronic, it still will involve paperwork

:25:59.:26:12.

at some point, and that's Newry lies in the south

:26:13.:26:14.

of County Armagh, an area known during the Troubles as bandit

:26:15.:26:20.

country for its paramilitary There's concern now that a physical

:26:21.:26:23.

border would not only damage the local economy,

:26:24.:26:27.

but serve, at the very least, as an uncomfortable reminder

:26:28.:26:30.

of the area's divided past. This vote is potentially more

:26:31.:26:34.

important for us than the vote The importance to the peace process

:26:35.:26:37.

of British and Irish EU What's not is the fact

:26:38.:26:44.

that the EU has pumped more than 1.5 billion euros

:26:45.:26:49.

into cross-community reconciliation. The Peace Bridge in Londonderry

:26:50.:26:53.

just one such project. But the largest political parties

:26:54.:26:58.

on each side of the community divide have very different views

:26:59.:27:01.

on what leaving would mean. There would be an adverse impact

:27:02.:27:05.

for north-south relations. We would see a loss to the growing

:27:06.:27:09.

levels of North-South economic It would result in a hardening

:27:10.:27:12.

of partition of that, If the north of Ireland votes

:27:13.:27:16.

to remain in the EU and sections of English popular opinion vote

:27:17.:27:21.

to come out, then we, like the Scots, should be

:27:22.:27:25.

given an opportunity This nonsense that somehow

:27:26.:27:27.

the world is going to end, there will be no trade,

:27:28.:27:35.

no money for farming, there will be border controls

:27:36.:27:39.

with no doubt machine-gun posts at the border and all of that

:27:40.:27:42.

nonsense, is scaremongering and it Remember, a lot of these people said

:27:43.:27:44.

exactly the same thing when we were told we wouldn't be

:27:45.:27:48.

part of the euro. We were told this would be

:27:49.:27:51.

disastrous for trade and for co-operation

:27:52.:27:56.

between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic,

:27:57.:27:59.

and for trade between the Irish Republic and the rest

:28:00.:28:00.

of the United Kingdom. Here at Carlingford Lough,

:28:01.:28:03.

the town of Warrenpoint in Northern Ireland is separated

:28:04.:28:07.

from Carlingford in the Republic No one knows what the political

:28:08.:28:09.

landscape would look like if we vote to leave the EU,

:28:10.:28:15.

but for at least one part of the UK, the consequences could be felt

:28:16.:28:19.

a lot closer to home. And the Northern Ireland Secretary

:28:20.:28:25.

Theresa Villiers and the shadow Northern Ireland Secretary Vernon

:28:26.:28:29.

Coaker are still with me. If the UK votes to leave the EU, it

:28:30.:28:41.

is one land border with the EU, and that would be with the Republic of

:28:42.:28:44.

Ireland. Can you guarantee nothing would change along the border when

:28:45.:28:49.

it comes to controls and checks and freedom of travel? I can guarantee

:28:50.:28:52.

we still have an open border and it would be as free for goods and

:28:53.:28:56.

people as it is now. The Common travel area, which enables Irish

:28:57.:28:59.

citizens and UK citizens to pass freely... Is that in legislation?

:29:00.:29:05.

Yes, it is. It survived the Civil War and war and it survived 30 years

:29:06.:29:10.

of the troubles. And it will survive a vote in Brexit and to suggest it

:29:11.:29:18.

wouldn't is scaremongering. So she is saying it would stay the same

:29:19.:29:25.

completely? It existed when Ireland and the UK were not members of the

:29:26.:29:29.

EU, and it existed while they were, but what it has never been, the

:29:30.:29:34.

Common travel area, is when Britain and Ireland on different

:29:35.:29:37.

arrangements. You would have Ireland in the EU and the whole of the U --

:29:38.:29:42.

UK not in the EU. Why couldn't you still have the freedom of movement?

:29:43.:29:47.

Let's say that freedom of movement becomes not just between Ireland and

:29:48.:29:51.

the UK, a big queen -- becomes between the whole of the EU and the

:29:52.:29:59.

UK. So people from Italy, Spain, Poland, wherever, Romania, they fly

:30:00.:30:04.

into Dublin, and then they just walk straight across the border and they

:30:05.:30:08.

have entry into the rest of the UK. Part of the Leave campaign is we do

:30:09.:30:11.

not want freedom of movement of people. There is an illogicality to

:30:12.:30:16.

it that raises questions about what happens. What do you say to that

:30:17.:30:21.

point? We would be relying on Irish customs and immigration to monitor

:30:22.:30:25.

migrants from the EU, and you want to control migration, and they would

:30:26.:30:29.

have the potential to enter the UK undetected, if you say the borders

:30:30.:30:30.

are open. They would certainly be risks to be

:30:31.:30:39.

managed but we already face them now. Where do we face them now at

:30:40.:30:46.

the moment because on the French side we have officials working on

:30:47.:30:49.

their side and our own immigration officials so the risks would be

:30:50.:30:55.

high, wouldn't they? Effectively our external border is also the Republic

:30:56.:31:00.

of Ireland's border so we already depend on the authorities in the

:31:01.:31:04.

Republic of Ireland to play part of the role in policing our borders. I

:31:05.:31:10.

think the idea of thousands of French, German EU citizens wanting

:31:11.:31:15.

to come to the UK across the Irish border is fanciful. The reason why

:31:16.:31:18.

there are significant population movements at the moment is because

:31:19.:31:23.

of free movement rules. If we were to amend them, we wouldn't see the

:31:24.:31:28.

mass population flows we do now. And that would be logical if you were

:31:29.:31:33.

voting to leave, you would take the rules to that point which you could

:31:34.:31:37.

stop people coming across in the way you envisage. All I'm saying is the

:31:38.:31:44.

border becomes not a border within the EU, it becomes a border... I

:31:45.:31:51.

understand. Clearly that will have to be managed. Theresa has said

:31:52.:32:01.

there has to be risks that will be managed. Isn't it a bigger risk to

:32:02.:32:11.

have Turkey joining the EU? It will have a significant impact. The

:32:12.:32:17.

government is committed to looking at the issue and re-energising the

:32:18.:32:26.

talks of Turkish accession. It is always an issue that is raised.

:32:27.:32:31.

Turkey will not join the EU within the foreseeable future. It is a red

:32:32.:32:36.

herring you throw on the table. It is our responsibility think not just

:32:37.:32:41.

about the EU today but what it will be like in ten years, 20 years. We

:32:42.:32:47.

have the responsibility to think to the long-term. Just because it might

:32:48.:32:50.

not happen for a few years, it doesn't mean it is not a problem.

:32:51.:32:55.

This is the one chance people in the UK have is to leave the EU.

:32:56.:33:00.

Otherwise we are stuck in this organisation probably for decades to

:33:01.:33:04.

come and we will face those risks when Turkey joins.

:33:05.:33:07.

Does Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party have a problem with Englishness?

:33:08.:33:09.

It's a question posed by former Shadow Cabinet minister

:33:10.:33:12.

Tristram Hunt in a new collection of essays penned by Labour MPs

:33:13.:33:14.

and less successful candidates from the last General Election

:33:15.:33:17.

and some of the comments might come as a shock to its

:33:18.:33:20.

The debate about Labour and Englishness was partly inspired

:33:21.:33:34.

by this photo, tweeted by the now Shadow Defence

:33:35.:33:44.

by this photo, tweeted by the now Shadow Defence Secretary Emily

:33:45.:33:47.

Thornberry during the Rochester by-election, which was

:33:48.:33:49.

And Tristram Hunt has joined us in the studio. Labour is in much bigger

:33:50.:34:40.

trouble electorally in Wales and Scotland. Yes, it is almost as if we

:34:41.:34:44.

had three different general election is happening on the same day in

:34:45.:34:49.

England, Scotland and Wales, and we face a big, historic challenge in

:34:50.:34:52.

Scotland, but what we are also seeing, and this was the nature of

:34:53.:34:56.

the collection of essays I brought together with fears over a cultural

:34:57.:35:03.

disconnect with Englishness. The reason this is important is because

:35:04.:35:08.

more people are identifying themselves as English than British,

:35:09.:35:11.

and if we don't feel we are on the same side as them in terms of their

:35:12.:35:16.

identity and values, the Labour Party will not be voted for. You say

:35:17.:35:27.

nursing this is essential, what does it mean? It means pride in English

:35:28.:35:36.

history, it is about making sure we have a big, bold devolution package.

:35:37.:35:41.

We have this mismatch in power, many people in England feel, between the

:35:42.:35:46.

devolution settlement in Scotland and Wales, and the Labour Party in

:35:47.:35:50.

particular is a much more British party isn't often seen enough as on

:35:51.:35:55.

the side of those who have very strong feelings about their Ingush

:35:56.:36:00.

identity. Is he right, in terms of the diagnosis of the problem for the

:36:01.:36:05.

Labour Party and do you back this idea? As someone who is married to

:36:06.:36:12.

an Englishman and has lived here half my life, I understand what you

:36:13.:36:18.

mean and I can maybe talk about what Englishness is, but what we have to

:36:19.:36:24.

be careful about is this concept of England becomes changed in every

:36:25.:36:29.

generation. It is in fact on some levels invented. The feeling of

:36:30.:36:35.

Englishness in some ways, and I'm just saying this as someone watching

:36:36.:36:40.

it and living with an Englishman, becomes a reaction as opposed to a

:36:41.:36:45.

fact. If the Labour Party... And I take your point, if the Labour Party

:36:46.:36:51.

is going to appeal to England it has to define what England is. The

:36:52.:36:59.

notion of the flag of St George has not been a positive symbol of

:37:00.:37:04.

England for the last 30 years. Was that an mistake by Emily Thornberry,

:37:05.:37:09.

seeming to mark what is seen as the representative of England? She used

:37:10.:37:16.

sub textual feeling about that flag. She made a grave mistake and it was

:37:17.:37:24.

an insult as well, but the Labour Party can talk about what England

:37:25.:37:30.

is. Suzy stride says one person opened the door and said, I am a

:37:31.:37:40.

white, working-class heterosexual English person on benefit, the

:37:41.:37:42.

Labour Party is not for people like me. Have they given up on these

:37:43.:37:50.

people in favour of something else? It is devastating if people think

:37:51.:37:56.

that. If our reputation is such that mainstream white English voters feel

:37:57.:38:00.

that the Labour Party isn't for them, then building the kind of

:38:01.:38:03.

progressive coalition that we want to build is immediately crippled.

:38:04.:38:07.

Bonnie is right about this question of English identity. There is an

:38:08.:38:12.

interesting historical debate about the nature of Englishness, and

:38:13.:38:18.

whether there was a codified sense of Englishness more than British

:38:19.:38:25.

nurse. As we see Britishness ebbing, does this Englishness ideal come

:38:26.:38:33.

back? For the man in Harlow, if he feels the Labour Party is not on the

:38:34.:38:37.

side of English people, and this is what was so problematic about the

:38:38.:38:42.

2015 election, because we have this type team between Nicola Sturgeon

:38:43.:38:45.

and David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon saying the Labour Party isn't on the

:38:46.:38:50.

side of the Scottish and David Cameron saying it isn't on the side

:38:51.:38:59.

of the English. It is not about England, it is about the definition

:39:00.:39:04.

of England. England is everyone who is English so therefore the Labour

:39:05.:39:07.

Party has to embrace this multifarious idea of England as

:39:08.:39:13.

opposed to it being... Right, and there was this lovely new book on

:39:14.:39:18.

Islamist culture within England in the 16th century, and how these

:39:19.:39:23.

ideas within England develop. If we are not on the pitch, Bonnie, if we

:39:24.:39:28.

are not negotiating and contesting and having pride in this, then you

:39:29.:39:33.

end up with the politics we have seen in Austria. You end up with far

:39:34.:39:37.

right politics, you don't have a progressive account of battery and

:39:38.:39:42.

England, and to show that we love England then the right taker. Do you

:39:43.:39:53.

think there is a two tea Labour Party, the London elite and the rest

:39:54.:39:58.

of the country? I think this trend has been going. The book was about

:39:59.:40:02.

the 2015 election but in local elections we saw Labour doing well

:40:03.:40:06.

in London, Sadiq Khan brilliant, doing well in Norwich and Bristol,

:40:07.:40:14.

but in Nuneaton, Tamworth, Middle England, the marginal seats, in

:40:15.:40:19.

communities who are feeling under pressure by pressure and

:40:20.:40:21.

globalisation and socioeconomic change... Labour did gain some seats

:40:22.:40:27.

in England in those local elections we just had. We lost 20. I take your

:40:28.:40:35.

point, but it did gain some seat. Normally opposition seats gained

:40:36.:40:47.

130. We gained in areas where there is a more confident, Metropolitan

:40:48.:40:50.

identity and we are under pressure in areas where white working-class

:40:51.:40:56.

voters, in areas like Portsmouth and Southampton, feel that the Labour

:40:57.:40:58.

Party is not speaking to their values. Does Jeremy Corbyn get this?

:40:59.:41:05.

I don't know if Jeremy Corbyn get this. Do you not up to him about it?

:41:06.:41:15.

I have sent the book to him. One theory is that Jeremy Corbyn's

:41:16.:41:18.

approach to the defence industry doubles down on this idea of

:41:19.:41:24.

Englishness and the white working class communities. We were hurt in

:41:25.:41:29.

Portsmouth to the Labour Party's approach to these vital industries.

:41:30.:41:35.

But Labour must not react to an idea of England. England is a big idea,

:41:36.:41:40.

and I think Labour should embrace the big idea of England which is

:41:41.:41:45.

multicultural. Look at Shakespeare. That tells you what London was in

:41:46.:41:51.

the 16th century. And the Tempest is a story as much about the West

:41:52.:41:54.

Indies and the Caribbean as it is about England. England is a big

:41:55.:41:59.

idea. Thank you very much. Our famous love of dogs seems

:42:00.:42:03.

to be having unintended Footage from the BBC's Panorama

:42:04.:42:05.

programme shows cages in Ireland filled with hundreds

:42:06.:42:08.

of sickly dogs, ready to be As the law stands, if someone owns

:42:09.:42:11.

a council pet shop licence they're OK to source

:42:12.:42:16.

dogs from elsewhere. Campaigners say enough

:42:17.:42:17.

is enough and they want Today, celebrities,

:42:18.:42:20.

MPs and charities are gathering outside the Houses

:42:21.:42:22.

of Parliament calling for the Government to ban the sale

:42:23.:42:25.

of puppies in pet shops I am with the vet Mark Abraham, and

:42:26.:42:39.

Jody Marshall who needs no introduction, but you owned six

:42:40.:42:45.

dogs. What is your reaction to this trade, is it visceral cruelty?

:42:46.:42:49.

Definitely cruel in so many ways. Not only are the dogs very sick,

:42:50.:42:55.

unhealthy and mistreated, kept in tiny boxes and used literally just

:42:56.:42:59.

for breeding over and over again, but it is cruel on the owner because

:43:00.:43:04.

when you go to buy a puppy from a puppy farm, you will end up spending

:43:05.:43:10.

thousands on vet bills because the dog is so sick. Many people will say

:43:11.:43:16.

it is cruel but it is regulated and inspected by local authorities. Many

:43:17.:43:20.

of these people say I am not breaking the law. Absolutely, and

:43:21.:43:25.

that is why we need the government to answer for themselves. Why is

:43:26.:43:29.

this legal? Why is it allowed to happen? Mark will tell you, it is

:43:30.:43:37.

absolute, just... You have asked the question for me and I will get him

:43:38.:43:45.

to answer. Why is it legal? A law regulates this, are you calling for

:43:46.:43:50.

it to be banned? We want the government to follow its own advice.

:43:51.:43:57.

It quite clearly says on the website that puppies should be seen with

:43:58.:44:02.

their mother. Why are they then allowing them to be sold without

:44:03.:44:06.

their mother. The public need to choose responsibly. How can they?

:44:07.:44:21.

Lucy is getting in on the action. A lot of this is emotional. You are

:44:22.:44:25.

saying is a vet you know she was damaged. You don't need to be a vet

:44:26.:44:31.

to see how damaged she was. Lucy was a rescue Cavalier, battery farmed.

:44:32.:44:37.

Puppies were sold by licensed dealers... She is over breeding? She

:44:38.:44:43.

has so many health issues. Luckily she has been rehabilitated, she is

:44:44.:44:48.

still scared, still has separation anxiety, but the whole puppy farm

:44:49.:44:52.

industry relies on the third-party trade and a lack of transparency.

:44:53.:44:57.

Very quickly, do you think this has even been on the government's radar?

:44:58.:45:06.

In 2014 we had a debate in the main chamber for the banning on the sale

:45:07.:45:11.

of puppies without their mothers, eliminate third-party sales. It was

:45:12.:45:15.

a backbench victory, but the government front bench said no,

:45:16.:45:19.

let's keep things as they are. It is not OK, we need to change things

:45:20.:45:23.

immediately so people can either buy directly from the breeder or

:45:24.:45:29.

preferably go to a rescue centre. Are you getting a big response about

:45:30.:45:35.

this? Everyone feels the same. If we all suddenly started

:45:36.:45:56.

eating dog meat in this country there would be uproar. Everyone

:45:57.:45:59.

would go crazy. What is happening with these dogs in puppy farms is

:46:00.:46:02.

probably worse because they are being kept alive to have a horrible

:46:03.:46:03.

life. Yes, I think the dog wanted to be

:46:04.:46:08.

elsewhere. Driverless cars, spaceports -

:46:09.:46:10.

last week's Queen's Speech had all the makings

:46:11.:46:12.

of a science fiction novel. But this seemed to be a snapshot

:46:13.:46:15.

of Britain's future in modern technology and artificial

:46:16.:46:17.

intelligence, and one that MPs So much so the Commons Science

:46:18.:46:19.

Technology committee is now conducting an inquiry into the UK

:46:20.:46:24.

robotics industry to consider the social, legal and ethical issues

:46:25.:46:26.

raised by developments in the field. Let's have a look at they kind

:46:27.:46:32.

of thing they're talking about. What you can see here is footage

:46:33.:46:43.

from Boston Dynamics in the States. It's a robotics firm

:46:44.:46:48.

owned by Google. It created a humanoid

:46:49.:46:51.

that is able operate outdoors It uses sensors to avoid obstacles,

:46:52.:46:55.

assess the terrain, help with navigation

:46:56.:47:02.

and manipulate objects. It can also withstand bullying

:47:03.:47:06.

and still achieve its task. With me now is Dr Rob Buckingham,

:47:07.:47:12.

director of RACE - which stands for Remote Applications

:47:13.:47:15.

in Challenging Environments - set up He's giving evidence

:47:16.:47:17.

to the Select Committee Welcome to the Daily Politics. It

:47:18.:47:30.

looks exciting, but there are ethical issues here at the core.

:47:31.:47:35.

Yes, of course. This is something which is going to hit us over the

:47:36.:47:40.

next ten, 2050 years. Computers are getting more and more powerful and

:47:41.:47:43.

robotics is just a part of the trend. We have to be really aware of

:47:44.:47:48.

these issues and give it the attention it deserves. What does it

:47:49.:47:54.

mean? Should we be scared? No, I don't think we should be scared.

:47:55.:47:59.

When we wrote the strategy a couple of years ago we said that these are

:48:00.:48:06.

just the next generation of smart tools, tools that help people, that

:48:07.:48:11.

create jobs, create wealth, solve problems and we shouldn't really be

:48:12.:48:14.

focusing too much on the existential stuff. It is great science-fiction.

:48:15.:48:21.

But is it just science-fiction? You talk about artificial intelligence

:48:22.:48:26.

and you look at the robot, and you think what about if they start to be

:48:27.:48:30.

able to play computer games and they don't need direction from humans.

:48:31.:48:35.

Eventually, in a hundred years, they can talk to each other, but I love

:48:36.:48:40.

the idea of robots. I love them, I think they are fantastic and I think

:48:41.:48:45.

what they will do is free up human beings from drudgery. They will also

:48:46.:48:57.

allow for every human displaced by a robot there should be a programme by

:48:58.:49:02.

which every human is retrained for a job of the future. In fact, the

:49:03.:49:06.

robot can teach the human that job. That is what is so exciting about

:49:07.:49:12.

this. We can learn from robots a lot about our bodies, our minds. They

:49:13.:49:17.

will go in and take care of jobs we can't do, clearing mines. Except the

:49:18.:49:22.

key in your little speech there about robots was actually about the

:49:23.:49:26.

fact that people need to be retrained, and would people be

:49:27.:49:29.

retrained? If people are worried their jobs are being taken and there

:49:30.:49:34.

isn't anything there to do customer that is a constant process. Society

:49:35.:49:39.

does not stand still. So absolutely Ahki message to the politicians and

:49:40.:49:45.

educators is, get with it. -- a key message. Get to grips with science,

:49:46.:49:49.

technology, engineering and maths. We have to have those skills if we

:49:50.:49:53.

are going to be an economy that makes money, generate jobs, all that

:49:54.:49:57.

stuff, we have to be in that area. Robotics is a key part of that. Do

:49:58.:50:01.

you agree with Bonnie that it will be 150 years? It doesn't matter

:50:02.:50:07.

about the time. It will happen, and then the key thing is, what we do

:50:08.:50:12.

now? How do we prepare for that in a calm, calculator, open, transparent

:50:13.:50:17.

way? What the government be doing instead of opening free schools and

:50:18.:50:22.

academies is that it needs to set up programmes in schools in which

:50:23.:50:28.

people are taught STEM. It is the most important thing a young person

:50:29.:50:32.

can do. Women need to get more involved in STEM. Forget about

:50:33.:50:36.

robots, these things will happen. We need to get smarter. Instead of

:50:37.:50:38.

rushing around trying to control people we need to get a unified

:50:39.:50:45.

school system that teaches people STEM. It has to come from the top.

:50:46.:50:51.

When do you think this will happen? A change is visual for everybody.

:50:52.:50:56.

Autonomous people is the most visual thing. Driverless cars for example.

:50:57.:51:01.

It is in our space. The Internet we don't think of being in our space,

:51:02.:51:05.

it is in the digital space, somewhere else. Whereas robotics is

:51:06.:51:10.

physical and comes into our space, our home, our heart -- driveways.

:51:11.:51:15.

That is why it is important to the UK. We are leading in this area. Is

:51:16.:51:21.

the UK leading? We are doing stuff here that is not being done

:51:22.:51:25.

elsewhere. And it's a valuable export commodity. If we can take the

:51:26.:51:29.

lead, get our schools on board and stop all silliness, getting to STEM.

:51:30.:51:36.

We have the first language in the world and we could be the export

:51:37.:51:39.

leaders in this. The pictures we were showing their, the robot being

:51:40.:51:45.

kicked over, is that the sort of thing you are developing? Is it a

:51:46.:51:48.

publicity stunt? It is an awesome video. And it just raises huge

:51:49.:51:55.

questions. It makes you smile. Why is that? We are human beings and

:51:56.:52:02.

when we start thinking about humanity and humanoids we think,

:52:03.:52:06.

wow, it's exciting. Immediately we think, is that robot in pain? I

:52:07.:52:11.

would put money on the fact that someone cared in some estate is

:52:12.:52:17.

sitting there, seen that, thinking I know what to do here. That kid needs

:52:18.:52:21.

to be released into a school system that allows him or her to get into

:52:22.:52:26.

STEM and that is the world of the future. How radical does the

:52:27.:52:31.

education system need to change in order to make way for this? I'll

:52:32.:52:38.

give you a very specific example. We just got given ?50 million to set up

:52:39.:52:42.

an apprentice training school, which is really good. A apprentices. We

:52:43.:52:47.

want to take all of those apprentices through my centre -- all

:52:48.:52:53.

apprentices. That is a way to embed that stuff into training. From

:52:54.:52:57.

16-year-olds all the way through, those guys and girls going through

:52:58.:53:01.

that process are hands-on, playing with software and electronics. They

:53:02.:53:08.

should be receptive to it. They love it. Culture and art in there and you

:53:09.:53:15.

have a perfect human being. You should go and work for him, Bonnie.

:53:16.:53:16.

You would be welcome. Thanks. Jeremy Corbyn has given

:53:17.:53:20.

lots of talks at universities and other venues around the country

:53:21.:53:22.

since becoming the Leader They've all been pretty exciting,

:53:23.:53:25.

like this one, for example, Give a big East Midlands welcome

:53:26.:53:28.

to the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn at De Montfort

:53:29.:53:31.

University in Leicester last year. Now, students and Labour activists

:53:32.:54:03.

at Lancaster University thought they were in for a similar event

:54:04.:54:05.

a talk by Jeremy Corbyn But, when they got there,

:54:06.:54:08.

they were confronted not by the Leader of the Opposition

:54:09.:54:12.

but by a cardboard box. It was all part of an undergraduate

:54:13.:54:17.

fine art project. And the student behind it,

:54:18.:54:21.

Lucie Carter, is here to tell us more and the Culture

:54:22.:54:25.

Minister, Ed Vaizey. First of all, what we doing? I've

:54:26.:54:39.

been developing my work for a while in the studio and this is the final

:54:40.:54:45.

budget that I came up with. Can we have a look at it? There it is. And

:54:46.:54:53.

the idea behind it was what exactly? It's a combination of two series

:54:54.:54:57.

that I have looked at. One of them is looking at the play element in

:54:58.:55:05.

culture, it's a book and I can't remember the name of the author. And

:55:06.:55:12.

it's combination of object orientated ontology as well. What is

:55:13.:55:18.

object-oriented ontology? Try and think of the simplest way. Please

:55:19.:55:27.

do. What is it there? It is not only about the piece itself, it is about

:55:28.:55:33.

you. So those who and the call they did the piece, and that was the call

:55:34.:55:43.

and I think it's very exciting. Way surprised it took off, and 500

:55:44.:55:49.

people were due to attend, so were you surprised by the response?

:55:50.:55:53.

Absolutely. I didn't think it would be as big as it became, so I was

:55:54.:55:59.

shocked. That you got into trouble? Not necessarily. We handled things

:56:00.:56:06.

internally in the union. What about the local MP? How did she respond?

:56:07.:56:13.

She called me on the day I made the event and she asked me to delete the

:56:14.:56:18.

event which I thought, fair enough. So I did. Did you? Do you think she

:56:19.:56:26.

should have done? She may have taken it as a piece of hostility towards

:56:27.:56:30.

Jeremy Corbyn but you could turn it round the other way and say even a

:56:31.:56:33.

box with the name Jeremy Corbyn can potentially attract 500 people to

:56:34.:56:38.

come and view it. Could you attract 500 people in person? I don't think

:56:39.:56:45.

I could. I don't want to in any way diminish your artwork, but this is

:56:46.:56:55.

the STEM box, and we thought we would do one to you. What I want to

:56:56.:56:59.

know now is what is happening to the viewing figures? -- the Ed Vaizey

:57:00.:57:07.

box. The font is wrong. What should it be? That is the font. What is

:57:08.:57:14.

wrong with it? The font is also the art as well. It's not a scribble

:57:15.:57:19.

leafing. I think you'll find we spent a very long time this. Not

:57:20.:57:28.

really. Famously Roy Hattersley was replaced with a tub of lard on have

:57:29.:57:33.

I got News for you. So I think the BBC led the way for you to open the

:57:34.:57:38.

pathway for this piece of art. Are you open-minded to this sort of

:57:39.:57:46.

thing? This is the centenary of Dadaism and are looking at the world

:57:47.:57:49.

and mocking the world in some ways, and next year will be the centenary

:57:50.:57:57.

of the Fountain piece by Duchamp, and he said because it was art he

:57:58.:58:05.

said it was art. It is art and it is art for all the reasons that you

:58:06.:58:09.

said it is art. The people who don't get it, that is art as well. The MP

:58:10.:58:15.

who decided to get on your case is part of the art piece as well. What

:58:16.:58:19.

are you going to do next? I actually don't know. When you do, can you

:58:20.:58:25.

come on and bring it, and bring Ed Vaizey as well. Very quickly you can

:58:26.:58:30.

help Bonnie Greer with the answer to the quiz. I don't think we've got

:58:31.:58:37.

time to do the quiz. I will have to say thank you to all of our guests

:58:38.:58:39.

to day. Thanks to Bonnie Greer

:58:40.:58:40.

and all my guests. I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow

:58:41.:58:44.

with Andrew for live coverage The One O'clock News is starting

:58:45.:58:47.

over on BBC One now.

:58:48.:58:52.

Jo Coburn is joined by playwright Bonnie Greer. With David Cameron giving a speech claiming leaving the EU could adversely impact the cost of a family holiday, Jo gets the thoughts of leading Vote Leave campaigner Theresa Villiers and Labour's Vernon Coaker. Tristram Hunt discusses his thoughts on why Labour isn't doing well in England and Jodie Marsh explains why she's protesting about puppy farming outside parliament.


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