06/06/2016 Daily Politics


06/06/2016

Jo Coburn with the latest on the EU referendum. George Monbiot takes aim at farm subsidies. And is meritocracy a myth?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

As the polls tighten, there's been an escalation

:00:39.:00:40.

of hostilities in the EU referendum battle, with both sides moving

:00:41.:00:44.

The Leave campaign says the UK faces a "triple whammy of woe" if it

:00:45.:00:51.

The Remain campaign says they're conning the British public.

:00:52.:00:59.

The temperature in the campaign just keeps on rising.

:01:00.:01:03.

Government plans for how the state, police and spies access our personal

:01:04.:01:06.

But is the Bill vital for our national security

:01:07.:01:10.

or an unnecessary intrusion on personal freedom?

:01:11.:01:16.

David Cameron has called for an all-out assault on poverty

:01:17.:01:18.

and says he wants to create a true meritocracy.

:01:19.:01:21.

I'll be discussing the European issue that everyone should be

:01:22.:01:27.

talking about it no-one is, farm subsidies.

:01:28.:01:38.

All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole

:01:39.:01:41.

of the programme today, the Conservative MP Mark Field

:01:42.:01:44.

Almost matching ties! That is the only thing that is matching!

:01:45.:01:58.

First today, in the last half hour Vote Leave have been outlining some

:01:59.:02:01.

of their key economic arguments for leaving the EU.

:02:02.:02:03.

Speaking at an event in Stratford-upon-Avon,

:02:04.:02:05.

Boris Johnson says Britain will be "forced to hand over even

:02:06.:02:08.

more money" if voters opt to stay in the EU.

:02:09.:02:18.

And that the economy was Leave's only argument.

:02:19.:02:24.

They want to say that we are selling democracy, because that is what we

:02:25.:02:30.

believe them, and they say they are selling economic 's. They think they

:02:31.:02:36.

have the stronger hand there. That is basically because on their side

:02:37.:02:41.

of the argument they totally get that we are winning all the

:02:42.:02:46.

Democratic points. If you look at what is going on in our country and

:02:47.:02:50.

around the EU, the European Commission is unelected and there is

:02:51.:02:56.

concern about the way that operates, the European Parliament... Does

:02:57.:02:59.

anybody know the name of their Euro MP?

:03:00.:03:01.

Well, the Prime Minister has also been out and about this morning.

:03:02.:03:04.

He joined leading figures from the left of British politics,

:03:05.:03:06.

Labour's Harriet Harman, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and

:03:07.:03:08.

And the Prime Minister took aim at the Leave campaign

:03:09.:03:14.

They are performing an economic con trick on the British people, and we

:03:15.:03:29.

are calling time on it. We publish the full extent of this, comedy

:03:30.:03:34.

dossier we publish outlines the various and often contradictory

:03:35.:03:38.

positions that they have held on the economy. Those that want us to leave

:03:39.:03:42.

want to leave the single market. We don't know what terms of access they

:03:43.:03:46.

will get instead, the dossier shows they lurch from one idea to another.

:03:47.:03:51.

First they said we should be like Norway, then Canada, then Albania,

:03:52.:03:56.

then America, and they have taken us from Iceland to the Isle of Man and

:03:57.:03:57.

Morocco and Moldova. This morning's crossfire comes

:03:58.:03:59.

after an extraordinarily personal attack on leading figures

:04:00.:04:01.

in the Leave campaign by the former Here he is on The Andrew

:04:02.:04:04.

Marr Show yesterday. I do find it very difficult

:04:05.:04:08.

to understand how Boris can justify the ?350 million that he has

:04:09.:04:11.

on his battle bus, that he and Michael Gove have

:04:12.:04:15.

defended time and again. You know, I know, the IFS knows,

:04:16.:04:19.

everyone knows, Boris knows, that the real net amount

:04:20.:04:23.

that we send to Europe The concept that the people running

:04:24.:04:26.

the Brexit campaign would care for the National Health Service

:04:27.:04:32.

is a rather odd one. I seem to remember Michael Gove

:04:33.:04:35.

wanted to privatise it, Boris wanted to charge people

:04:36.:04:38.

for using it and Iain Duncan Smith The NHS is about as safe as them

:04:39.:04:41.

as a pet hamster would be Last night on the Westminster Hour

:04:42.:04:47.

on Radio 4, the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who is voting

:04:48.:04:54.

to leave the EU, hit What we have had today were a bitter

:04:55.:04:56.

ramblings of a vengeful man. But he's the man who took us

:04:57.:05:04.

into the exchange rate mechanism, destroyed hundreds of thousands

:05:05.:05:07.

of jobs, had people evicted from their homes and led

:05:08.:05:11.

to the destruction of businesses for the sake of his

:05:12.:05:15.

failed European policy. And now he says things that are both

:05:16.:05:18.

hypocritical and untrue How magnanimous Boris was in saying

:05:19.:05:24.

we should rise above it. I'm going to sling the mud straight

:05:25.:05:28.

back at Sir John Major, the Knight of the Garter who ought

:05:29.:05:31.

to know how to behave better. Amidst that, John Major unleashed a

:05:32.:05:43.

torrent of vitriol yesterday at tempted campaigners -- Leave

:05:44.:05:49.

campaigners, especially saying that leaving the NHS in decades would be

:05:50.:05:54.

like leaving a pet hamster with a hungry python. There are a lot of

:05:55.:05:58.

descriptions that have been going on, I fear we will see more. I have

:05:59.:06:03.

long team a believer in what Ronald Reagan once said, he would speak ill

:06:04.:06:09.

of no other fellow Conservative, and I think that applies to Douglas, as

:06:10.:06:15.

far as I am concerned. You are in a diminishing group. It is aborted to

:06:16.:06:21.

play the ball and not the man. There are some important issues. Everyone

:06:22.:06:25.

would agree this is more important than any single general election,

:06:26.:06:30.

the most important vote we have had in our lifetime to date. John Major

:06:31.:06:36.

of all people have the most provocation, given the difficulties

:06:37.:06:40.

he faced as Prime Minister, the frustration boiled over yesterday.

:06:41.:06:46.

Was he justified? I would not have made it personal. There were strong

:06:47.:06:52.

emotional argument. I disagree with Boris Johnson, it is not just about

:06:53.:07:00.

economics, the interests of the UK have to be considered, we played an

:07:01.:07:06.

important part in rebuilding Europe, which seemed as broken as the middle

:07:07.:07:11.

east is today, we have friends and as, and there is interest matter as

:07:12.:07:17.

well. The message coming in loud and clear is they desperately want the

:07:18.:07:22.

UK to stay in and play its part in reforming it. How worried are you

:07:23.:07:26.

that the Tory party is tearing itself apart? I would prefer to look

:07:27.:07:33.

at the issues. Like a lot of MPs, I am worried, partly because amongst

:07:34.:07:39.

the backbenches we have a cordial relationship, I have been good

:07:40.:07:44.

humoured, a lot of joshing, but what we see from the prominent figures is

:07:45.:07:48.

something that is upsetting many of us. Our activists across the

:07:49.:07:56.

country, I feel for Dan Watkins, our candidate in tooting, how he must be

:07:57.:08:00.

feeling, trying to make the case for the party, when these arguments take

:08:01.:08:05.

place. Jacob Rees-Mogg as a backbencher, he has been mudslinging

:08:06.:08:10.

as well. Let's look at this other than through the prism of the

:08:11.:08:13.

internal dynamics of the Tory party. We have seen some strident negative

:08:14.:08:17.

language coming out of Downing Street. The Prime Minister talked

:08:18.:08:21.

about a bomb under the British economy. The Leave campaign has

:08:22.:08:28.

outlined an optimistic alternative. Because we are outlining an up the

:08:29.:08:33.

alternative, with five pledges about how we can make things better, we

:08:34.:08:38.

are beginning to win the argument. Warning about 76 million Turks is

:08:39.:08:45.

positive and optimistic? It is the truth. If you have pressure on the

:08:46.:08:49.

public services at the moment... How many Turks have passports at the

:08:50.:08:55.

moment? 7 million. I am just throwing that out. 80 million people

:08:56.:09:01.

will soon have the right to settle here if they join the EU. The risks

:09:02.:09:09.

of Remain are many. One is that we will have unrestricted migration. We

:09:10.:09:13.

already have 450 million people with a legal right to settle here. At an

:09:14.:09:19.

extra 80 million people... They don't have the right to settle here.

:09:20.:09:24.

The onus is on the Remain campaign to explain the risks. There are

:09:25.:09:29.

risks that we see on our shores in the last few days. What if the

:09:30.:09:35.

answer to having hundreds of Albanians coming onto our shores? We

:09:36.:09:41.

signed up to a lot of international conventions that nothing to do with

:09:42.:09:45.

the EU. The notion we can get rid of people, secure our borders and make

:09:46.:09:52.

them safe, is a fallacy. The Turkish thing, I have always had my doubts

:09:53.:09:55.

about whether Turkey should join the EU, many Turkish politicians are

:09:56.:10:01.

less keen on it than they were five or ten years ago, but it would be

:10:02.:10:05.

vetoed first by the Greeks and Cypriots and French and Germans. Why

:10:06.:10:10.

are we spending 2 billion preparing for red? One of the risks of

:10:11.:10:14.

remaining is that Turkey joins and we have to pay more. That is the

:10:15.:10:20.

risk. I don't think we can afford it. Let's talk about the NHS. The

:10:21.:10:27.

claim made by John Major, he pointed out that Michael Gove wanted to

:10:28.:10:30.

privatise it, response to charge people for using it, Iain Duncan

:10:31.:10:35.

Smith wanted social insurance. How would you manage it? I have defended

:10:36.:10:42.

the local NHS in four elections, I have earned the right to be heard.

:10:43.:10:48.

It is vital. If we vote to leave, we could spend an extra 100 million

:10:49.:10:52.

every week. If the Government decides. We both know that whether

:10:53.:11:04.

it is seven, eight or 10 billion a year we will save by not being in

:11:05.:11:08.

the EU, it is a minuscule amount in terms of a Budget of ?900 billion a

:11:09.:11:14.

year. We are already overspending, living beyond our means, we will

:11:15.:11:18.

borrow 75, ?80 billion this year. The notion that this money will go

:11:19.:11:22.

straight into the health service is a myth. That is the claim, the ?350

:11:23.:11:32.

million. Let's be clear, it is a gross figure, around half of that

:11:33.:11:35.

comes back in terms of rebate, and there are pots of money and payments

:11:36.:11:39.

that go to things like agriculture. If I let you ?50 and you give me ?25

:11:40.:11:45.

back, I have given you ?25 of. We give a gross contribution. If you

:11:46.:11:53.

look at the net contribution, we suggest that 5.2 billion, 100

:11:54.:11:57.

million per week, should go on the NHS, 2 billion on taking the 80 off

:11:58.:12:03.

fuel bills. That is money we are giving to Brussels. Improving the

:12:04.:12:11.

NHS and taking money off fuel. He may be against the money for the

:12:12.:12:15.

NHS, but we are in favour of it. We have heard about VAT on fuel. Ed

:12:16.:12:23.

Miliband two years ago. These are the populist quickfire so-called

:12:24.:12:28.

solutions. There was an EU directive that means we cannot do anything

:12:29.:12:33.

about it. If we vote to leave, we can, we can remove VAT from fuel by

:12:34.:12:38.

voting to leave. The EU directive prevents us from doing that. The

:12:39.:12:46.

bigger concern I have... The idea that we will remove ourselves from

:12:47.:12:50.

the single market, I speak to businesses, they are very worried.

:12:51.:12:56.

Maybe they struggle to pay their fuel bills. I know why Leave went

:12:57.:13:02.

down that path, because it is the only way in which you can square the

:13:03.:13:06.

circle for immigration, but it is a very serious prospect, the idea that

:13:07.:13:11.

we remove ourselves from the trade deals. The single market is one of

:13:12.:13:16.

the greatest successes that the EU has, 500 million people. It is not

:13:17.:13:21.

succeeding. More work will have to be done. Part of the reform that

:13:22.:13:26.

goes forward is to make sure it is rolled out for public services as

:13:27.:13:28.

well. We will discuss this further. The question for today is,

:13:29.:13:31.

who of the following is not related Is it a) Boris Johnson,

:13:32.:13:35.

b) Harriet Harman, c) At the end of the show,

:13:36.:13:40.

Mark or Douglas will give Neither of us are related,

:13:41.:13:49.

incidentally! Have you checked? Government plans to overhaul

:13:50.:14:00.

the laws governing how the state, police and spies can access

:14:01.:14:02.

communications and other forms of data head back

:14:03.:14:04.

to the Commons this afternoon. The Investigatory Powers Bill

:14:05.:14:06.

is the last big piece of legislation The Bill, championed

:14:07.:14:10.

by the Home Secretary Theresa May, aims to give new powers

:14:11.:14:16.

to the police and security services, particularly

:14:17.:14:18.

around the bulk collection It also wants to give the system

:14:19.:14:20.

more oversight by setting up a commission made up

:14:21.:14:25.

of senior judges. One of these judges will have

:14:26.:14:29.

the power to approve or decline warrants for the most-intrusive

:14:30.:14:32.

investigations, like hacking The privacy safeguards in the Bill

:14:33.:14:35.

were boosted earlier this year after it was criticised

:14:36.:14:41.

by three committees of MPs. After the changes, the authorities

:14:42.:14:44.

will only be able to access people's internet records when it's

:14:45.:14:47.

"necessary and proportionate" One of the most-controversial

:14:48.:14:51.

aspects is a clause that requires phone and internet companies to keep

:14:52.:14:57.

a record of the websites visited by every citizen for 12 months,

:14:58.:15:01.

which could then be viewed The Shadow Home Secretary Andy

:15:02.:15:05.

Burnham set out six areas of concern on behalf of Labour,

:15:06.:15:12.

but the party then abstained on the Bill when it was

:15:13.:15:15.

last in the Commons. And last week, a report

:15:16.:15:18.

by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, chaired

:15:19.:15:20.

by Labour's Harriet Harman, said the new powers would not be not

:15:21.:15:23.

"inherently incompatible" with privacy rights, as long

:15:24.:15:27.

as certain safeguards were met. We are joined by Keir Starmer. The

:15:28.:15:46.

last time this Bill was in the Commons, Labour abstained. What

:15:47.:15:49.

about this time? We have been clear from the start that a new law is

:15:50.:15:53.

needed to update the powers but also because after the Snowdon

:15:54.:15:56.

revelations, it's very important that the powers being exercised are

:15:57.:16:00.

on the face of a statute with proper safeguards but it's got to be the

:16:01.:16:03.

right Bill. We have consistently made demands of the Government to

:16:04.:16:07.

improve the safeguards and we have been working over the last month,

:16:08.:16:11.

two months in the Bill committee to achieve the safeguards. In fairness

:16:12.:16:15.

to the Government they have met our demand in a number of key concerns,

:16:16.:16:20.

so there is going to be a review of the bulk powers, the wide powers,

:16:21.:16:29.

carried out by David Unston QC. The Government's conceded on that. Does

:16:30.:16:32.

that mean Labour will support the Bill? There are six outstanding

:16:33.:16:36.

issues. There were six before so when you say there's been movement?

:16:37.:16:40.

One is split into two but they are basically the same issues we have

:16:41.:16:45.

been clear on. OK. They include for example the Trade Union Who engage

:16:46.:16:53.

in activity shouldn't be spied on and the Government are with us in

:16:54.:16:58.

principle on that. The debate this afternoon will be critical. On

:16:59.:17:01.

Internet connection records, we have been clear there must be a

:17:02.:17:05.

seriousness of offence before there must be access so we have had a

:17:06.:17:11.

consistent set of demands and also want an overarching privacy clause

:17:12.:17:15.

so that every time a decision is made under the Act, privacy is seen

:17:16.:17:21.

as a key consideration. Do you consider this bulk use of data or

:17:22.:17:26.

surveillance as an intrusion into one's privacy? Yes, it is, the

:17:27.:17:30.

question is whether it can be justified. It's an important right

:17:31.:17:33.

but it's not an absolute right. Exactly. The question is, is any

:17:34.:17:38.

invasion necessary and is it proportionate? On that key question

:17:39.:17:44.

is it necessary, that's why we have demanded a review so the operational

:17:45.:17:49.

case can be looked at and a view taken on whether the powers are

:17:50.:17:53.

there and are needed. The bulk powers have always been there to a

:17:54.:17:57.

certain extent though? The vast majority have but this is the first

:17:58.:18:01.

time Parliament's had chances to look at them. Before Snowdon, we

:18:02.:18:06.

didn't know anything about these powers, so this is an important

:18:07.:18:10.

moment because post-Snowdon, we have to decide, do we put them on the

:18:11.:18:14.

statute book with safeguards or use the old regime, vague powers without

:18:15.:18:18.

safeguards and I think we need to look guard. I prefer to see

:18:19.:18:25.

something codified, there is too much confusion about the legislation

:18:26.:18:28.

that can potentially apply. We shouldn't be naive about this. The

:18:29.:18:33.

truth of the matter is, this is going to need constant updating. The

:18:34.:18:38.

idea you can future proof a Bill and not come back to it, I don't think

:18:39.:18:43.

that would be great. That is why the privacy clauses are there and we

:18:44.:18:46.

have been arguing so hard that the Home Secretary must give on this.

:18:47.:18:49.

However things change in the future, privacy is always a key

:18:50.:18:53.

consideration. That's fundamental. Do you accept the Government has

:18:54.:18:56.

been dragged to this point a bit? When it started out, and we have

:18:57.:18:59.

been doing interviews about this Bill for quite some time, that

:19:00.:19:03.

actually a lot of what they were asking really was more than just an

:19:04.:19:08.

invasion, intrusion in privacy, in some cases would be counted as

:19:09.:19:13.

almost illegal? In fairness, I was on the intelligence and community

:19:14.:19:18.

panel so we were aware of what was disclosed by Snowdon and I think

:19:19.:19:24.

that was a real scene-setter and changer and in part because global

:19:25.:19:28.

communication service providers, the Googles of this world, they of

:19:29.:19:34.

course had a cosy relationship with Governments and Security Services

:19:35.:19:37.

across the world and they now demand global protocols. That I think is

:19:38.:19:41.

one of the things that is going to emerge here. The one concern I have

:19:42.:19:46.

is around encryption. The Government's talked about the idea

:19:47.:19:49.

of trying to weaken tripping to radio fill and that will be

:19:50.:19:55.

difficult to do. Are you happy at the moment with the way the balance

:19:56.:19:59.

is between the Security Services? Keir makes some really important

:20:00.:20:03.

points. There are people out there, and every conversation about this

:20:04.:20:06.

has to start in recognition, there are people who wish us ill and it's

:20:07.:20:10.

right that the state can in effect snoop, the question is who zwroefr

:20:11.:20:15.

sees the people overseeing this -- oversees the people. I've tabled an

:20:16.:20:20.

amendment so that the commissioner is approved by Parliament. If the

:20:21.:20:23.

Government accepts that, I he vote for the legislation, if they won't,

:20:24.:20:29.

I vent. Is that a good idea? I think the oversight is critically

:20:30.:20:32.

important. I've seen this both sides of the argument, I spent 20 years as

:20:33.:20:37.

a human rights lawyer. I then spent five years as the Director of Public

:20:38.:20:43.

Prosecution working with the intelligence Security Committee.

:20:44.:20:47.

Oversight by judicial commissioners is important. Will you support my

:20:48.:20:52.

amendment? I'll support yours if you support mine? The Prime Minister's

:20:53.:20:55.

involvement is needed in that, there is a need for an independence of

:20:56.:21:04.

appointment so in principlee. How they're appointed is critically

:21:05.:21:07.

important 679 this is a real chance to get it right. The ball is in the

:21:08.:21:12.

Government's court now. Do you think we are going to need judges in this

:21:13.:21:18.

area? Are you saying they are not any there? An elite... Would you

:21:19.:21:25.

trust the Home Secretary to do it then? If they are accountable to

:21:26.:21:30.

Parliament. If Parliament has a confirmation hearing and can say no

:21:31.:21:35.

to one... You would say no judges? I like the idea of having judges but I

:21:36.:21:38.

think the House of Commons should have the ultimate ability to say no.

:21:39.:21:45.

One of the complaints was there are so many of these requests that

:21:46.:21:50.

actually how much time is going to be given by the person? This is a

:21:51.:21:54.

very important issue. We are pressing hard. I've said close

:21:55.:21:58.

scrutiny. The judges have got to see the material before the Secretary of

:21:59.:22:01.

State or the Foreign Secretary and they've got to exercise close

:22:02.:22:05.

scrutiny and they've got to grapple with the substance, not just the

:22:06.:22:08.

process. That's one of my demands for this afternoon so watch the

:22:09.:22:12.

debate. And you won't support it without that? We have been clear

:22:13.:22:15.

what our demands are, it's really for the Government now. We know

:22:16.:22:19.

where they stand on this. If we are going to move to a scloeser

:22:20.:22:23.

scrutiny, more substance than process, that would be a very

:22:24.:22:26.

significant move. The Government are taking this seriously. So so they

:22:27.:22:31.

will give in? They will. Unusually you have the Home Secretary herself

:22:32.:22:35.

who will be there. As opposed to a junior minister. That is a

:22:36.:22:39.

reflection of how important they look upon these issues. You said

:22:40.:22:43.

about the seriousness of the offence, what counts in your mind as

:22:44.:22:49.

serious enough to warrant that? Usually we measure seriousness by

:22:50.:22:52.

the length of prison sentence, whether bit six months two years,

:22:53.:22:57.

three years, on this occasion we need to be more subtle. Groups are

:22:58.:23:02.

anxious that the powers should be there if cases that concern them in

:23:03.:23:08.

stalking. It's a subtle exercise. The point we are making is, if you

:23:09.:23:13.

are going to use Internet connection records, you have got to be sure

:23:14.:23:16.

it's not content an you have to make sure it's a serious enough case, not

:23:17.:23:22.

just any case. This must never be used to get people for re'tilly

:23:23.:23:27.

minor offences. Which was the complaint by local authorities? Yes.

:23:28.:23:32.

Low level offences ought to be out. That will have to be clear in the

:23:33.:23:36.

wording then. Lots to discuss this afternoon and tomorrow.

:23:37.:23:37.

In the run-up to the referendum, we've offered politicians

:23:38.:23:40.

from all the main parties the chance to take to their soapboxes and make

:23:41.:23:44.

short films on the case for either Remain or Leave.

:23:45.:23:47.

Before the half-term recess we heard the Conservative cases

:23:48.:23:50.

Today it's the turn of Ukip and the SNP.

:23:51.:23:54.

In a moment we'll hear from the SNP's Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh,

:23:55.:23:57.

But first here's our guest of the day, Douglas Carswell,

:23:58.:24:03.

with his film on the case for leaving the EU.

:24:04.:24:14.

Every week we hand over ?350 million to Brussels.

:24:15.:24:19.

That is enough to build more than 50 NHS hospitals a year.

:24:20.:24:22.

Imagine what we could do with that money if we voted to leave the EU.

:24:23.:24:26.

We would have more schools, health care and public services.

:24:27.:24:30.

Being in the EU means we lose control, not just over our money,

:24:31.:24:33.

Over 500 million EU citizens have an automatic right

:24:34.:24:39.

Our Government is powerless to decide how many people come in.

:24:40.:24:43.

Let's vote Leave to take back control of our borders.

:24:44.:24:47.

We discover the people we elect don't answer to us, they stop

:24:48.:24:52.

being on our side, they do what they are told by Brussels.

:24:53.:24:56.

The EU is failing, it can't control its borders,

:24:57.:25:01.

manage its currency, it could not handle the debt crisis.

:25:02.:25:04.

Remaining is the high-risk thing to do.

:25:05.:25:07.

Vote Leave, it is the safest thing for our country.

:25:08.:25:21.

We'll pick Douglas' brains more in just a moment.

:25:22.:25:26.

But first, here's the SNP MP, Tasmina Sheikh, making the case

:25:27.:25:30.

Scotland's membership of the EU has been beneficial

:25:31.:25:48.

in building a safer, stronger society, a more prosperous

:25:49.:25:50.

For the last 60 years the EU has played a key role in building

:25:51.:26:00.

Our direct access to this huge market of 500 million people

:26:01.:26:07.

is good for our economy, for inward investment and for

:26:08.:26:10.

European laws guarantee Scottish workers' rights.

:26:11.:26:16.

They protect our entitlement to have paid holidays and ensure

:26:17.:26:20.

all workers, men and women, part-time and agency,

:26:21.:26:23.

The Tories want to turn back the clock on progressive

:26:24.:26:28.

We know Michael Gove feels the EU has acted as a handbrake

:26:29.:26:37.

on the plans of the current UK Government, and that is why we must

:26:38.:26:40.

do everything we can to retain our membership.

:26:41.:26:42.

I want a Europe that supports economic growth

:26:43.:26:46.

and champions human rights, and which promotes solidarity

:26:47.:26:49.

and the social contract which exists between states and their citizens.

:26:50.:27:04.

And Tasmina joins us now in the studio.

:27:05.:27:12.

You said in your film there that you want to protect workers' rights. Why

:27:13.:27:19.

do we have to remain in the EU to protect workers' rights? Because

:27:20.:27:22.

that's been the foundation of the protection for many years. Which

:27:23.:27:27.

ones? If you look at the contrary position where if we leave the EU

:27:28.:27:31.

where we might be left, that is in a position where the Conservative

:27:32.:27:35.

Party who's in Government have unfettered control over workers'

:27:36.:27:38.

rights and the Trade Union Bill is one example of that where we have

:27:39.:27:41.

seen the erosion of the rights and the erosion of Trade Unions and

:27:42.:27:45.

their works. The rights are in relation to paternity, maternity pay

:27:46.:27:48.

and protected in relation to discrimination in the baulk place.

:27:49.:27:54.

You say they would go? We have had enough indications from the way the

:27:55.:27:57.

Tory Government have been behaving even since I've been elected that

:27:58.:28:01.

that is highly likely. What guarantees can you give workers

:28:02.:28:04.

that their rights will not disappear if the UK leaves the E Snitch

:28:05.:28:09.

Because their rights were introduced by an elected British Government.

:28:10.:28:12.

I'm not advocate for the Labour Party but it was a Labour Party in

:28:13.:28:16.

1999 that introduced a national minimum wage, a Labour Government

:28:17.:28:20.

that introduced maternity cover, maternity rights are higher in the

:28:21.:28:24.

UK than the EU. Would they be protected? Could a Government roll

:28:25.:28:27.

back the rights? I don't think they would. Would is not the same as

:28:28.:28:33.

could. Could they unravel some of those protections for employers?

:28:34.:28:37.

It's the European Union. At the moment that I would say is

:28:38.:28:43.

frustrating the rights of workers. Big corporations frustrate the

:28:44.:28:46.

ability of workers in the EU to enjoy the sort of rights they enjoy

:28:47.:28:50.

in the UK today. It's the EU that is run in the interests of big

:28:51.:28:54.

corporate vested interests, not working people. Right but

:28:55.:29:00.

Euro-sceptics often cite burdensome EU regulation as something they want

:29:01.:29:03.

to get rid of so what would you like to see? If we left all regulations,

:29:04.:29:09.

it would become British... All of them. So what are you worried about?

:29:10.:29:15.

I asked that question to Government ministers in the despatch box in the

:29:16.:29:20.

run-up to where we are now, I said that because specifically Michael

:29:21.:29:22.

Gove has been prevented from doing things he'd like to because of EU

:29:23.:29:27.

legislation and I asked what specific piece of legislation are

:29:28.:29:30.

you referring to and they have been unable to provide me with an answer.

:29:31.:29:37.

This speaks to the debate in which we find ourselves, rhetoric in fear

:29:38.:29:43.

mongering statistics. You are talking about VAT. In terms of your

:29:44.:29:46.

voting record, you voted consistently over a long time to

:29:47.:29:49.

increase VAT in our national Parliament. That is simply not the

:29:50.:29:55.

case. I believe in lower taxes. Have you voted on that issue? Have you

:29:56.:30:00.

voted against or for I should say increases in VAT? I voted to reduce

:30:01.:30:06.

tax. On VAT? No, I want to reduce VAT and I voted in the three

:30:07.:30:11.

previous budgets for measures that would reduce the tax. You voted all

:30:12.:30:16.

the way up to 20%, you voted to increase. Would you like to see

:30:17.:30:20.

higher or lower rates of migration to the UK?

:30:21.:30:25.

This debate has plummeted to the depths of negative rhetoric. Would

:30:26.:30:35.

you like to see higher or lower? If we can see that immigration

:30:36.:30:40.

contributes, it is a good thing. You happy? Looking at migration in and

:30:41.:30:50.

out, 2.6 people have come in and 2.2 million have left. Of the migrants

:30:51.:30:55.

that are here and Roger booting, they contribute ?55 per second. This

:30:56.:31:00.

nonsense they are a drain on the economy needs to be dealt with, we

:31:01.:31:03.

need to look at the positive effects. They are welcome in

:31:04.:31:10.

Scotland. This has descended in England to a debate about

:31:11.:31:13.

immigration, because the statistics in Scotland are different. Let's

:31:14.:31:19.

talk about the numbers. Are the numbers the critical part of the

:31:20.:31:24.

debate on immigration? It is to do with control. 500 million people

:31:25.:31:30.

have a legal right to come here, 2.5 million came here in the last four

:31:31.:31:38.

years. It is right we have control. Does it mean bringing down the

:31:39.:31:43.

numbers? The risk of remaining is we have no control. If we vote to

:31:44.:31:47.

leave, we can elect a Government that can tell us how much we are

:31:48.:31:50.

going to reduce immigration by. People have said David Cameron would

:31:51.:31:57.

reduce immigration, but no Government can do that unless we

:31:58.:32:01.

vote to leave. Which is higher, those from outside the EU or those

:32:02.:32:05.

from within the EU? If we had an Australian points -based system...

:32:06.:32:11.

But there are more people coming from outside the EU at the moment.

:32:12.:32:17.

And that is every year since we joined the EU. We cannot control

:32:18.:32:23.

migration unless we have -- change the legal right... Would you bring

:32:24.:32:28.

the numbers down to tens of thousands? Yes. So the numbers are

:32:29.:32:35.

important? Michael Gove says it is about control, not numbers. You have

:32:36.:32:40.

said you would like the numbers to come down. That is my personal view,

:32:41.:32:46.

there are others. We could have a meaningful discussion if the MPs

:32:47.:32:51.

could have the choice. Would supporters on the Leave side wanted

:32:52.:32:56.

the numbers come down? A points -based system. The Cattrall is

:32:57.:33:01.

important, why should the UK not control's they could still have

:33:02.:33:06.

migrants coming to this country, but they could decide who comes and how

:33:07.:33:10.

many. A fundamental tenet of being part of the EU is free movement of

:33:11.:33:16.

people. The suggestion that 500 million people will come to the UK,

:33:17.:33:21.

and not if they have heard some of the arguments in this debate, they

:33:22.:33:25.

would not want to set them but in this country... Many millions are

:33:26.:33:30.

coming. What about those here who want to go abroad in the EU, learn

:33:31.:33:34.

and study and engage and have business there? You don't need to be

:33:35.:33:39.

in a political union. It is a two-way street. One of the worst

:33:40.:33:45.

things is Ukip's involvement, whether it is Nigel Farage talking

:33:46.:33:48.

about increased six attacks on women, following his general

:33:49.:33:53.

election debate performance when he talks about HIV-positive patients

:33:54.:33:58.

being a drain on the NHS. This does not help anyone. Do you agree with

:33:59.:34:04.

Nigel Farage that the number of six attacks on women would go up if we

:34:05.:34:11.

stay? I will not get drawn on that. There is a positive test is that if

:34:12.:34:17.

we vote to leave, we can have an Australian style points system. I

:34:18.:34:19.

don't want to get involved in anything beyond that, but when

:34:20.:34:26.

people come here, they should make a positive contribution, but we should

:34:27.:34:28.

have the right to control who comes here. That may ask something,

:34:29.:34:34.

stories today that a number of Remain MPs who would be a majority

:34:35.:34:39.

would vote to state within this ingle market, so Parliament would

:34:40.:34:45.

trump the vote on the referendum, and Britain would still be exposed

:34:46.:34:51.

to free movement of people. Would you support that, that Parliament

:34:52.:34:55.

would have a vote to stay within the single market, even if the UK votes

:34:56.:34:59.

to leave the EU? The single market is of critical importance to our

:35:00.:35:04.

businesses. It is not just about being in a big trade organisation,

:35:05.:35:09.

it is having similar regulation. But what about the Parliament? Part of

:35:10.:35:18.

the uncertainty, if we vote to get out of the EU on the 23rd of June,

:35:19.:35:25.

Article 50 will be invoked. Then, a process of negotiation, a minimum of

:35:26.:35:32.

two years, takes place between us and the EU. The truth is, at the end

:35:33.:35:37.

of that, it would be for the Government of the day to bring back

:35:38.:35:41.

to parliament a deal. That deal is not satisfactory, it is beholden

:35:42.:35:49.

upon members of Parliament, if they feel strongly, to throw out that

:35:50.:35:56.

deal. The Remain side are not accepting the result of the

:35:57.:36:01.

referendum? I am not saying that, but we have to negotiate for the

:36:02.:36:06.

interest in the decades to come. We have got to leave this discussion.

:36:07.:36:11.

We would need to leave, but not on any terms. That is interesting, we

:36:12.:36:14.

might be able to pick that up later. Now, there's been a lot

:36:15.:36:16.

of discussion in the EU referendum campaign about money -

:36:17.:36:19.

how much do we pay to the EU One of the tangible benefits

:36:20.:36:22.

is the subsidies for farming, but the environmentalist and writer -

:36:23.:36:26.

and reluctant EU remainer - George Monbiot argues that might not

:36:27.:36:29.

be the best use of the funds. # Old McDonald had

:36:30.:36:32.

a farm, E-I-E-I-O. # And on the farm he had some cows,

:36:33.:36:42.

E-I-E-I-O. # With a moo moo here,

:36:43.:36:46.

a moo moo there, cattle everywhere. Why is it the biggest item in the EU

:36:47.:36:51.

budget is scarcely mentioned I am talking about farm subsidies,

:36:52.:36:56.

55 billion euros a year that the European Union

:36:57.:37:03.

doles out to landowners. The more land you own,

:37:04.:37:09.

the more money you receive. It is daylight robbery,

:37:10.:37:15.

the rest of us are being taxed to subsidise the richest

:37:16.:37:21.

people in the land. # When those cows got out of line,

:37:22.:37:24.

served them medium rare. Subsidy rules insist you must

:37:25.:37:34.

destroy trees and other wildlife # With a moo moo here,

:37:35.:37:39.

a moo moo there. There is no limit to the subsidies

:37:40.:37:47.

you can get for owning land. Some landowners use their

:37:48.:37:53.

Social Security to buy The benefits for people who need

:37:54.:37:56.

them to make ends meet, # Old McDonald had

:37:57.:38:03.

a farm, E-I-E-I-O. At the very least, subsidies

:38:04.:38:12.

for landowners should be capped at the same level

:38:13.:38:15.

as benefits for everyone else. I think I am going to vote to remain

:38:16.:38:21.

in the EU on 23rd June, but if we do stay, let's demand

:38:22.:38:25.

that it stops robbing the poor And we've also been joined

:38:26.:38:28.

by another George, George Eustice, the farming minister

:38:29.:38:36.

who is campaigning to leave the EU. I won't model them up, I promise!

:38:37.:38:48.

Can you get the reform you want while still being in the EU? It is a

:38:49.:38:56.

good question. On this issue, the EU has been unresponsive and

:38:57.:38:58.

unaccountable, it is hard to get them to listen. It is not big

:38:59.:39:02.

European Commission at fault, there has been a deal, a dodgy deal,

:39:03.:39:09.

between France and Britain and Germany, France says, we want the

:39:10.:39:14.

biggest budget possible, and Britain has said, we want no cap on the

:39:15.:39:18.

individual contribution. Why are you staying in? It is not just about

:39:19.:39:24.

agriculture, there are lots of other issues. It is dishonest to say,

:39:25.:39:31.

because I am a Remain campaigner, I should pretend that everything about

:39:32.:39:36.

the EU is good. Is that the only reason you are leaving, to do with

:39:37.:39:41.

farming? We would be better off taking back control across the

:39:42.:39:45.

piece, but I spent two and half years wrestling with the regulations

:39:46.:39:49.

that George has talked about, and you cannot get proper reform in the

:39:50.:39:53.

EU, you have 28 governments with different political persuasions,

:39:54.:39:58.

with different agricultural sectors, structures, the fundamental idea of

:39:59.:40:04.

a pan-European legal system governing agriculture is flawed. We

:40:05.:40:10.

need to put in place our own policy that we can get behind. It is

:40:11.:40:17.

context, you need the flexibility to do things differently. What about

:40:18.:40:22.

the subsidies farmers would lose? We would still support farming at the

:40:23.:40:26.

same level. Would you be able to guarantee that level of money? If we

:40:27.:40:31.

stopped sending ?350 million a week to Brussels... Let's talk about the

:40:32.:40:37.

net figures. We would have more than enough money to fund an agricultural

:40:38.:40:42.

policy. If the priority was farming and agriculture. And the environment

:40:43.:40:49.

and animal welfare. We are spending over 3 billion a year on farming,

:40:50.:40:54.

recycled through the EU. It is paid for owning land. We are facing a

:40:55.:41:04.

shortfall, in the NHS into 3 billion, we are going to give it to

:41:05.:41:07.

landowners instead of dealing with the shortfall in the NHS? Nobody

:41:08.:41:12.

will stand for that. The only reason the system exists is we can say,

:41:13.:41:18.

that is Brussels' business. We would deliver environmental objectives.

:41:19.:41:24.

Which ones? It helps to safeguard our security of food, I am in favour

:41:25.:41:30.

of looking at some of the models they have in Canada, so farmers can

:41:31.:41:34.

invest. You could put in place a suite of different environmental

:41:35.:41:41.

schemes to have watercourses protected, we can do it better than

:41:42.:41:46.

the system we have now. This is the stuff that you have tried to scrap,

:41:47.:41:52.

I have seen the speeches you have given, where you have said, we will

:41:53.:41:57.

tear down the regulations, big and issues that you have to meet as a

:41:58.:42:02.

farmer to get this money. Just as the ordinary recipients of benefits

:42:03.:42:05.

have had their conditions racked up until it is extremely difficult to

:42:06.:42:10.

survive on Social Security, under your watch farmers have had their

:42:11.:42:14.

conditions reduced. So we are giving away the money for nothing. Even

:42:15.:42:18.

when farmers are stripping the soil off the land, contributing to

:42:19.:42:23.

floods, wiping out these and songbirds, they are still getting

:42:24.:42:28.

their subsidy. When we judge you on your record, we find a different

:42:29.:42:32.

picture. We need to have clarity about what this regulation and

:42:33.:42:36.

enforce it properly, not the system we have now, and buttresses to of

:42:37.:42:42.

rushed justice. Can you deny those claims? Definitely. We have ?3

:42:43.:42:48.

billion over five years going into environmental stewardship. We would

:42:49.:42:53.

retain that activity that promotes the development of habitat. What

:42:54.:42:58.

about claims that farmers have contributed to flooding, because

:42:59.:43:00.

they did not have the money or support to do anything else? It is

:43:01.:43:05.

because the common agricultural policy is so bonkers. I oppose it. I

:43:06.:43:12.

have never heard you make a public statement saying, this is what is

:43:13.:43:20.

wrong. We have... Rules say do can only have 100 trees per hectare to

:43:21.:43:24.

make it eligible, but then there are rules about the maximum dose of a

:43:25.:43:30.

tree. Let's talk about the subsidy issue. If it is going to landowners,

:43:31.:43:34.

why should they continue to be subsidised by taxpayers here or

:43:35.:43:39.

anywhere in the EU if farmers are not getting the money? In future,...

:43:40.:43:48.

Now. It is not right. It is true there are large landowners who are

:43:49.:43:53.

not often farming, some of them receiving payments of over half ?1

:43:54.:43:58.

million a year,... You guarantee they would not get that? We would

:43:59.:44:02.

change the system, so farmers could manage risk, and you reward farmers

:44:03.:44:07.

for doing genuine work for the environment. Does that not sound

:44:08.:44:15.

like it would solve one of your complaints, that wealthy landowners

:44:16.:44:18.

would not get a subsidy to fly and land their helicopters? Would you

:44:19.:44:22.

cap the level of subsidies that any one person could get at the same

:44:23.:44:27.

level as ordinary recipients of benefit? I would not go for it that

:44:28.:44:33.

way, because some of the best work we do is be higher-level Stuart

:44:34.:44:37.

ship, we are investing in habitats. I would not... It would not be a

:44:38.:44:45.

subsidy, it would be a payment for ecosystem services, for work to

:44:46.:44:48.

improve water quality, promote habitat. Farming is unique, it is

:44:49.:44:54.

intertwined with our natural landscape and environment, that is

:44:55.:44:57.

why it is different and you need public support for those public

:44:58.:45:00.

goods, which you cannot reward in the marketplace. We need a farming

:45:01.:45:06.

industry. It would be an improvement, if we could trust him

:45:07.:45:11.

that that is what we would end up with, but everything we have heard

:45:12.:45:16.

from him is reduced, bridges, reduce, let's get these things out

:45:17.:45:19.

of the way, they are stifling enterprise. Spirit rushing, you call

:45:20.:45:22.

them. Why should we trust you? They don't work. They are spirit

:45:23.:45:36.

crushing because they prevent the farmers who, you seem to regard

:45:37.:45:39.

yourself as being solely in charge of helping, they prevent them from

:45:40.:45:46.

ripping up the hedgerows. Forced to do things the wrong way. If we

:45:47.:45:50.

warrant a coherent environmental policy, we have to take control. We

:45:51.:45:54.

can't just abdicate responsibility. We have things to fall back on at

:45:55.:45:58.

the moment. We have abdicated responsibility. Take back control,

:45:59.:46:01.

we take back responsibility. George and George, thank you very much. I'm

:46:02.:46:05.

sure you've got a great future together you two, in some sort of

:46:06.:46:06.

double act! As the campaign enters the final

:46:07.:46:08.

furlong, Andrew is going to be interviewing leading figures

:46:09.:46:11.

from each side of the campaign in the coming days, starting

:46:12.:46:15.

tonight at 7.30 on BBC One with the Shadow Foreign Secretary

:46:16.:46:18.

Hilary Benn for Remain, followed on Wednesday

:46:19.:46:21.

by Chancellor George Osborne, and then it's the turn of Leave

:46:22.:46:24.

campaigners Nigel Farage You might not have realised it

:46:25.:46:27.

but there are plenty of other political happenings this week other

:46:28.:46:35.

than arguing about the EU. Though there is of course,

:46:36.:46:39.

more of that too. As we've already heard,

:46:40.:46:43.

the Investigatory Powers Bill enters Report Stage today -

:46:44.:46:46.

giving MPs the chance to suggest On Tuesday, the Queen will open

:46:47.:46:49.

the fifth Welsh Assembly and the Prime Minister

:46:50.:46:55.

and Nigel Farage will appear on ITV to make their opposing cases

:46:56.:46:57.

as to whether the UK should stay On Wednesday Jeremy Corbyn

:46:58.:47:01.

and David Cameron will duke it out in the first PMQs after recessand

:47:02.:47:06.

the owner of failed retail chain BHS will give evidence to the Business

:47:07.:47:09.

Committee. On Thursday, former

:47:10.:47:11.

Foreign Secretary William Hague will give a speech on the balance

:47:12.:47:14.

between national security and personal privacy whilst

:47:15.:47:16.

political and business leaders gather in Dresden for this year's

:47:17.:47:20.

secretive Bilderberg meeting. Finally on Friday, it's the deadline

:47:21.:47:23.

for submissions to the Shami Charkrabati Inquiry,

:47:24.:47:26.

Labour's internal investigation into anti-semtism and Islamophobia

:47:27.:47:28.

amongst its members. We're joined now by Kevin Schofield

:47:29.:47:33.

of Politics Home and Anoosh David Cameron and Nigel Farage, are

:47:34.:47:49.

you going to be sitting on the edge of your sofa for that programme?

:47:50.:47:53.

I'll be on my sofa, maybe not on the edge. Good to know! Should be an

:47:54.:47:59.

interesting clash. Obviously they are not going head-to-head but I

:48:00.:48:03.

think David Cameron would have been reasonably pleased with how he got

:48:04.:48:08.

on on Sky News last week and he'll be looking for a fresh challenge and

:48:09.:48:13.

obviously Mr Farage, this is his big, big moment to set out his case

:48:14.:48:17.

for Brexit. Of course, with Nigel Farage, there's always the chance he

:48:18.:48:26.

would say something incendiary which could send the Volt Leave camp off

:48:27.:48:32.

course. Are they so much in full flow on this that they'll just do it

:48:33.:48:36.

off the hoof? Nigel Farage will be on the hoof because he's not

:48:37.:48:40.

afilliated to the vote Leave campaign at all. ITV booked him to

:48:41.:48:45.

be on this particular debate. So I think they said it was a stitch-up,

:48:46.:48:49.

so I think Nigel Farage is just going to go rogue. You've seen the

:48:50.:48:54.

comments he's made today about the risk of increased sex attacks from

:48:55.:48:57.

migrants, I mean what more does he have in the locker to bring out

:48:58.:49:01.

tomorrow, who knows! What about the blue on blue, since there's been a

:49:02.:49:04.

lot of that about in the last few days and both sides I suppose, to be

:49:05.:49:10.

fair, are plunging to new depths. John Major clearly had three wet bix

:49:11.:49:15.

if not more for breakfast yesterday. How damaging do you think it is now

:49:16.:49:21.

that David Cameron is sharing a Platt form with Natalie Bennett and

:49:22.:49:30.

Tim Farron? You see him sharing a platform with opposing party

:49:31.:49:33.

leaders, so logically you thinked say they are all on one side for

:49:34.:49:37.

this particular issue, but when you have Jeremy Corbyn refusing to stand

:49:38.:49:41.

alongside David Cameron, it throws the Remain campaign in a bit of

:49:42.:49:48.

confusion. There was an eye-opener, Natalie Bennett had a pop at the

:49:49.:49:55.

media for turning the EU referendum campaign into a Tory leadership

:49:56.:50:01.

campaign. It's Tory MPs who're doing that, not people like ourselves

:50:02.:50:08.

writing about it. But is it the case Anoosh that there is a feeling of

:50:09.:50:12.

planning for June 24th now, rather than referendum night itself?

:50:13.:50:16.

Absolutely. The story now is that even if David Cameron and the Remain

:50:17.:50:21.

campaign win, all the Tory MPs, people are citing 30 or 40 MP who is

:50:22.:50:25.

want to get rid of Cameron so it will be a challenge for him either

:50:26.:50:29.

way. If he wins, he'll be torn between perhaps trying to do some

:50:30.:50:39.

reconciliation reshuffle where he promotes Brexiters who've been

:50:40.:50:43.

tipped for this, but also giving Michael Gove and Boris Johnson more

:50:44.:50:47.

power in the Cabinet. That could equally scupper David Cameron's

:50:48.:50:49.

power as well because people who've been loyal to him during this might

:50:50.:50:54.

find that odd and a bit jarring. What about the story of the majority

:50:55.:50:59.

of MPs voting to stay in the single market if the UK does vote to leave

:51:00.:51:03.

the EU, what do you make of that story, Kevin? It's a great story is

:51:04.:51:07.

the first thing to say. I would be astonished if they were to go ahead

:51:08.:51:12.

with it. People are going to vote on 23rd June knowing full well what

:51:13.:51:17.

Brexit is going to mean. No-one will go into the booth not knowing the

:51:18.:51:20.

consequences of leaving or staying. It would appear that if the MPs are

:51:21.:51:25.

trying to defy the will of the people by trying to see us in the

:51:26.:51:29.

single market if people vote for Brexit, it would look really, really

:51:30.:51:33.

bad. Trust for public and MPs has been low and it would take a further

:51:34.:51:37.

nose dive if that were to happen. Thank you both of you.

:51:38.:51:38.

A row has broken out in the Tory party and no, it's not even

:51:39.:51:44.

But whether people should have to declare on their job applications

:51:45.:51:49.

whether they went to private school or not.

:51:50.:51:52.

The Government thinks this could improve social mobility

:51:53.:51:54.

and opportunities for state educated pupils but Tory peer,

:51:55.:51:56.

and provost of Eton College, Lord Waldegrave threatened

:51:57.:51:59.

Earlier this year, the Prime Minister said that

:52:00.:52:04.

improving life chances was a central mission of his Government.

:52:05.:52:11.

I believe in self-reliance and personal responsibility. I think

:52:12.:52:16.

it's absolutely correct, but we have to recognise that this alone is not

:52:17.:52:21.

enough. When it comes to people and poverty, the rising tide doesn't

:52:22.:52:25.

lift all boats, so if we want to transform life chances, we have got

:52:26.:52:29.

to go much, much deeper. We need a more social approach. One

:52:30.:52:37.

where we develop a richer picture at how social problems combined, how

:52:38.:52:41.

they reinforce each other, how they manifest themselves throughout

:52:42.:52:44.

someone's life and how the opportunity gap gets generated as a

:52:45.:52:45.

result. Joining me now is the journalist

:52:46.:52:47.

James Bloodworth who has just written a new book called

:52:48.:52:50.

The Myth of Meritocracy. Doesn't exist? Not at if moment I

:52:51.:52:57.

don't think. I thought David Cameron delivered a very good speech. We

:52:58.:53:01.

need to look at social class in the way we look at other issues around

:53:02.:53:06.

identity and the disadvantages they bring about. There are lots of

:53:07.:53:10.

campaigns at the moment to get more women into board rooms, to get more

:53:11.:53:13.

minorities into board rooms, those are very good. But class has to some

:53:14.:53:18.

extent dropped off the agenda. What about the suggestion for

:53:19.:53:20.

professional recruitment in terms of having to state whether you went to

:53:21.:53:24.

a state comprehensive school or a private school, is that fair? Yes, I

:53:25.:53:29.

think so. I mean, I think that, you know, Eton kind of privileges

:53:30.:53:36.

children of parents that have money so we should look to address the

:53:37.:53:40.

balance. You already put the school you went to on your CV. People could

:53:41.:53:45.

always look it up if they were that interested? Yes. I don't think it

:53:46.:53:49.

will make a huge difference but I don't think it's something to be

:53:50.:53:52.

frightened of, to state that that was a fee-paying school or a

:53:53.:53:57.

comprehensive school. The balance has to be redressed doesn't it,

:53:58.:54:03.

Douglas Carswell so obviously it must be fair to state your school?

:54:04.:54:09.

I've looked at CVs in the past, looked at universities and jobs they

:54:10.:54:12.

had done, I wasn't really interested in their school. Doesn't advantage

:54:13.:54:19.

get built in at school level? There is a small, smug, self-perpetuating

:54:20.:54:28.

Elise, Davos perhaps, and back the Remain campaign. We do need reform

:54:29.:54:33.

though and we need to break that cartel. That is one of the reasons

:54:34.:54:37.

why I left my own party and stood in a by-election and believed we need

:54:38.:54:40.

far-reaching political change. Are these things important. You went to

:54:41.:54:47.

a grammar school? I did. You both succeeded. Do you think it needs to

:54:48.:54:52.

be that explicit, I went to a state school and please therefore take

:54:53.:54:56.

that into account? I worry about it being too explicit. My mother was

:54:57.:55:03.

the daughter of a doctor and that was held against her when she came

:55:04.:55:07.

to the West, so I worry we are going down a particular route. There is a

:55:08.:55:12.

genuine issue about social mobility which has clearly gone backwards in

:55:13.:55:16.

the last 20-30 years here in the UK and I think you are right about

:55:17.:55:21.

meritocracy, one of the dangers is that people think there is no sense

:55:22.:55:26.

of Leave whatsoever. I believe in making money and whatever success

:55:27.:55:31.

I've had, we are in a merry tock radiocy and that brings with it some

:55:32.:55:35.

dangers. It's crude to have a statistic about which school you

:55:36.:55:42.

went to, increditly dangerous. I think it's more paying lip service

:55:43.:55:45.

to the society than making a huge difference. I think if Cameron was

:55:46.:55:50.

serious about it, he'd look at reducing the gap between rich and

:55:51.:55:54.

poor. Universities - if you look at the expansion of universities over

:55:55.:55:59.

the last 15 years, many more poorer working class children or teenagers

:56:00.:56:05.

go to university, but the proportion of the best universities has gone

:56:06.:56:09.

down so we need to look at the university system. Post-graduate

:56:10.:56:13.

education, you can't get a loan for that, you have to go to the bank. In

:56:14.:56:22.

economic terms, there is an injustice. The FTSE has companies

:56:23.:56:33.

earning 150 times what the FTSE was. We need far-reaching change. What's

:56:34.:56:37.

made that happen, what has increased that equality? A small Click of

:56:38.:56:41.

people decide public policy, partly, I hate to bring it back to the

:56:42.:56:44.

Europe question, but partly through Brussels, the sort of people lining

:56:45.:56:48.

up to back the Remain campaign and they have rigged the economy so

:56:49.:56:51.

rent-seeking interests re-Prince of Wale. There is a broader issue about

:56:52.:57:00.

the impact of global issues, there is a genuine concern. I often say

:57:01.:57:05.

myself that it seems now that the rules of global capitalism seem

:57:06.:57:10.

to... Rent-seeking Click? ! Middle class Tory voting people, dare I

:57:11.:57:14.

say. In the Remain campaign. 20 years ago would have said they are

:57:15.:57:18.

the winners, now they are amongst the losers. The middle classes are

:57:19.:57:25.

being locked out. Journalism for example, 43% of newspaper columnists

:57:26.:57:28.

went to private school, locking out middle class as well. Big state

:57:29.:57:34.

subsidies. State subsidies also for farming. We need the welfare system

:57:35.:57:40.

to help people who need help. Must the welloff though lose out for the

:57:41.:57:47.

disadvantaged to succeed? To some extent in financial terms yes, I

:57:48.:57:51.

think so. I don't think private schools should have charitable

:57:52.:57:54.

status for one thing. So you could say that is people losing out. A

:57:55.:57:59.

huge amount of work... Do they all do that though to earn the

:58:00.:58:03.

charitable status There is a massive amount of work and sponsors. I think

:58:04.:58:07.

that money would be better used in... That's... There is an argument

:58:08.:58:12.

to be had there. We have to bring class back on to the agenda in the

:58:13.:58:18.

way we understand disadvantage is accrued from identity. There are

:58:19.:58:22.

more ethnic minorities elected in Parliament, also more people who

:58:23.:58:26.

went to public schools, we are going backwards in that respect. Thank you

:58:27.:58:28.

very much. There's just time before we go to

:58:29.:58:29.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was; which of

:58:30.:58:33.

the following is not related How do you know that then? It's

:58:34.:58:49.

Nigel. The others are related to William and Anne. Although they are

:58:50.:58:53.

distant relations. Douglas Carswell got it right. Thank you to our

:58:54.:58:55.

guests of the day. Thank you. Mr Reginald Keys?

:58:56.:59:05.

We're from Army notification. About your brother.

:59:06.:59:08.

He's been shot dead. 'one man's mission for justice

:59:09.:59:14.

for his son.'

:59:15.:59:17.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS