Browse content similar to 07/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
David Cameron and Michael Gove trade blows - again - | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
with competing claims over the cost of leaving the EU, | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
What are the Labour arguments for leaving or remaining? | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
Gisela Stuart goes head to head with Chuka Umunna. | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
A new artwork is unveiled in parliament celebrating | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
A new artwork is unveiled in Parliament celebrating | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
the Suffragettes' struggle for votes for women. | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
And Giles rolls up his sleeves and takes the strain | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
as he joins the annual Lords versus MPs tug-of-war competition. | :01:11. | :01:21. | |
and with us for the whole of the programme today, | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
the former shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna. | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
So, another busy morning on the EU referendum campaign trail. | :01:29. | :01:37. | |
David Cameron has just been making a speech where he, | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
once again, focused on latest warnings on leaving the EU. | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
speaking about the "economic reality check" | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
from the World Trade Organisation this morning. | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Instability, jobs and investments lost. | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
Instability, jobs and investment lost. | :01:54. | :01:54. | |
That is the very clear message from today and this is an | :01:55. | :02:03. | |
economic reality check for our country. | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
And it doesn't come from people with an axe to grind, | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
but from credible, independent experts. | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
People who either have real skin in the game in terms of jobs | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
or investment, or whose job it is to warn about risks | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
to the world economy or global trade. | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
The Prime Minister's warnings followed a letter | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
from Vote Leave campaigners Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, | :02:28. | :02:29. | |
who argued that the UK could deport | :02:30. | :02:30. | |
more EU criminals back to the continent | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
They highlighted 50 cases in which, they say, the EU and European Courts | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
Here's the Justice Secretary speaking in an interview earlier. | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
We're certainly not trying to scare anyone, we're absolutely | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
emphasising the importance of taking back control. | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
If we leave the European Union, then we can have a greater degree | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
of security and safety in this country and we can ensure | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
that the laws we enforce and the way in which we treat criminals | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
are what I believe the British people would like to see. | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
I am sure that the British people would want to ensure that if someone | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
who has committed a crime and is a foreign national has | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
completed their sentence, that we can deport them, | :03:15. | :03:16. | |
rather than have them remain here, act as a cost to the taxpayer | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
and as a potential further danger to fellow citizens. | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
We've been joined by the Conservative MEP | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
and Leave campaigner, Dan Hannan. | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. If we left the EU, we would be able to | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
more easily deport EU criminals. I think that is rubbish, we have the | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
benefit of the European arrest warrant, which over the last six or | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
seven years has enabled us to deport and remove other 6,500 criminals | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
back to their countries of origin. We have actually been able to bring | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
people back here to face justice under the European arrest warrant, | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
including one of the people who attempted to add to the bombing that | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
we saw in 2005 and that is before you look at the prisoner exchange | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
agreements we have got and the criminal exchange system. What about | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
the 50 cases cited by the Leave Campaign, where European Court | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
blocked the extradition of those criminals to their respective EU | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
countries? Well, if you look at the broad swathe of the figures, they | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
have cited a number, we have cited 130 times that number. No one has | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
said the system is perfect, I have never argued that the EU is perfect, | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
but who argue that if we came out it would make it easier to remove these | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
criminals is completely untrue, not least because of course you would | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
have to negotiate new arrangements with each of the remaining 27 member | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
states. The director of Euro poll has said there are likely to be at | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
least the same number of British criminals abroad as foreign crumbles | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
in the UK, so we would have to welcome back our criminals, how does | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
that make us safer? We know who they are and we would be able to deal | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
with them. That doesn't make us any safer. There has always been a | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
international system for cooperating like this, the International | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
convention, the Hague Convention, time spent in another country as | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
part of your sentence and all of it predates the EU and will carry on. | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
But we say that handing people Makabu its power to the same people | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
that brought us the Schengen area and so on -- are we safe are handing | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
over the power to these same people. They may have interest in power at | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
heart and in case of the 50 cases cited today, they are an cases of | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
people who have been convicted and at the expiry of their sentence | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
cannot be removed from this country. But you do accept we would have to | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
welcome back UK criminals who have committed crimes abroad in the EU? I | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
would have thought it people have committed crimes are not being | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
deported, of course it is a two-way thing but people would regard it as | :05:55. | :06:06. | |
a sensible system. How many of the criminals released today currently | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
pose a threat to UK citizens? Usually, the deportation begins at | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
the expiry of a sentence, so one assumes the majority have been | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
released. So you don't know? I don't know how many have Bindaree | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
arrested... How many currently pose a threat? That is what you have | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
said. Dominic Crabb was asked the same question and how many currently | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
pose a risk to EU citizens and you cannot say. But of all of them who | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
either haven't all have been released, all of them. These of 50 | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
illustrative cases. I am not saying it is a total of 50, there are many | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
more. We have picked 50 cases going from some high profile murderers, | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
like the boy who murdered Philip Lawrence, the headteacher, down to | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
some of let's call the middle ranking cases, salts and rapes and | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
so on. These are not just 50 cases, these are 50... But 130 times that | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
have been removed. But you're not saying that without the European | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
arrest warrant there would be no extraditions or international | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
treaties? The question is how long it would take to put into place | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
alternative arrangements and whether we would have the same arrangements | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
that we have now if we were to come out. That is 27 other countries, you | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
would have to negotiate new arrangements with them. That would | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
take some time and who is to say we would get the same arrangements? The | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
truth of the matter is you don't know. You | :07:41. | :07:51. | |
saw a constituent whose life was ruined because of a false accusation | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
brought under the European arrest warrant. He spent three years under | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
house arrest in Athens, 11 months in one of the nastiest prisons in | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
Europe for what was clearly a case of mistaken identity. He had gone | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
out celebrating his A-levels. By the time he was finally cleared, the | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
people with whom he had been celebrated had finished their | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
degrees. Isn't this about control, that it would be better if the UK | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
control the destiny and fatal criminals rather than Brussels or | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
transport? Well, following negotiation, the uncertainty in this | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
area has been cleared up, which gives us greater power to ensure | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
people are brought to justice here and to remove people but on this | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
issue of control, one of the biggest problems with the Leave Campaign is | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
that they argue all of the problems that we have, whether it is | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
migration, foreign criminals, from the EU or not, all of these problems | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
can be sold by us leaving, and that is for the birds. Take the migration | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
issue, the central issue for voters leave, the migration crisis was not | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
caused by the European Union, it was caused by huge and stability in the | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
Middle East and Africa. We are not saying all of the problems will | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
disappear, we are arguing that in an uncertain world, it must be more | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
secure to take back control so we can mitigate the risks ourselves, | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
rather than passing power to people... We will finish it there | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
because we will come onto the issues of migration and immigration. | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
The Times today reports that former Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
was spotted at the Stoke Newington Literary Festival over the weekend. | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
C) singing the Diana Ross and Lionel Richie classic | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
At the end of the show, Chuka will give us the correct answer. | :09:32. | :09:44. | |
Or seen dead. I won't do that. Thank God -- or seeing it. | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
we've heard a lot from the Remain side | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
about the risks of leaving the EU. | :09:55. | :09:56. | |
Brexit, they say, would be a "leap in the dark", | :09:57. | :09:58. | |
the cause of a "DIY recession" and could even lead to war. | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
But now the Leave campaign is trying to turn the tables and focus | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
Let's take a look at what they've been saying. | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
They argue that remaining in the EU means we will be permanently tied to | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
They say we'll have to hand over more money to the EU in the future, | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
as the UK's growth continues to outstrip other member states. | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
And they say that EU treaties mean we are potentially liable | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
Leave campaigners also argue that remaining | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
in will lead to ever-higher levels of immigration. | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
They say we'll see even more immigration after countries | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
And it's also claimed that high immigration is a particular risk | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
to low-paid workers, as more and more people | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
Staying in the EU is also said to threaten our national security, | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
because we can't stop dangerous people entering the country. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
Leave campaigners point the finger at the European Court of Justice, | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
which they say sometimes blocks the UK from deporting | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
And they say that plans for an EU Army will undermine both NATO | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
Dan Hannan are still with us. Let's start with national-security, what | :11:10. | :11:21. | |
evidence is there that we will see an EU army any time soon? The | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
commission describes it as a strategic necessity. The commission | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
is not a wacky Federalist think tank, they initiate registration. | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker almost every time he opens his mouth says we need | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
this urgently and the Spanish Government, they are all pushing it. | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
Heavily times have we been through this, where we hear British | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
ministers saying no one is proposing it, it is just chitchat... It hasn't | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
happened, of course. That is what we were told about the euro. But it | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
hasn't happened. When people say no one is talking about it, it is no | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
one except the people running the EU. It is clear they wanted, that is | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
the point Dan Hannan is also trying to make, there is a will for it to | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
happen in parts of the European Union, you can't dispute that is | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
what makes you sure it won't happen? There is a mixture of use but | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
certainly not a consensus for a European army and as ever with Dan | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
Hannan, he always quote the European Commission, yes, they are | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
bureaucrats, they are civil servants, and in the end, the people | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
who make the decisions for laws in the European Union are MEPs like | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
that and the European Council, they have to sign off any legislative | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
proposal and I do not see it happening. A clear majority of MEPs | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
are in favour of a European army and a clear majority in the Council. If | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
there is a clear majority of MEPs in the European Parliament, even if | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
there are a number of member states and David Cameron has said today | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
that we have a rock-solid veto on a European army, you can't | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
categorically say it will never happen. There is a veto. But how | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
many states are needed to vote on the European army? What you see is | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
miffed after myth peddled. One minute they say there will be a | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
European army and we say we have a veto, they say it doesn't matter, | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
forget about that, there will be an army. They assert that Turkey will | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
join the European Union and we have a veto on whether they do. You can't | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
function this whole campaign legitimately, can you, on the idea | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
of what might happen, on the fears of people about Turkey, for example, | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
the poster that said 80 million Turks are coming to the UK, which is | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
patently not true at the moment? Can you do the same in issues of trust | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
over the European army? I say to people look at what is happening | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
now, look at the past record. How many times have we seen British | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
prime ministers saying they are going to go and veto this or that. I | :13:59. | :14:08. | |
can remember Tony Blair saying it. I remember discussing it with you on | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
the programme, the time when this Prime Minister said he is not going | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
to pay the extra prosperity surcharge, I am furious, I will not | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
pay it and of course, he ended up having to pay. On this issue of the | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
European army, I have heard Dan and others and I think Dan joined the | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
European Parliament when I was still at school and they have all been | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
threatening a European army because the horrible bureaucrats in Brussels | :14:33. | :14:41. | |
want to create a European superstate and it has not happened. Let's look | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
at some of the claims made by your side. Let's have a look at the | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
Eurozone bailouts and whether the UK would be obliged or compelled to | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
contribute to it, because we know it is absolutely not true, the Prime | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
Minister says, but the reality check agrees in this case with the Remain | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
Campaign. The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts, it has | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
been agreed and in addition, the deal from February, which will be | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
implemented in the UK votes to stay, reinforces this and states the UK | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
will be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the crisis. That | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
sounds pretty clear. So once again, go on the basis of what we have seen | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
rather than what we have been promised. We were | :15:23. | :15:38. | |
given a cast-iron guarantee that we would not be required to bail out | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
any of the eurozone countries because we kept our currency. At the | :15:42. | :15:43. | |
next General Election -- last General Election, the Prime Minister | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
made a big deal of it. And in June last year, when it became clear they | :15:47. | :15:48. | |
needed the money for the Greek bailout, we became stung. The | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
bridging loan. The Prime Minister described it as a flagrant breach of | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
what is promised. The old saying, fool me once, shame on me, for me | :15:56. | :15:57. | |
twice, shame on me. will use the Treaty of Rome says | :15:58. | :16:07. | |
that all member states can be called on to help any individual member | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
state that might find itself in severe difficulties, from a natural | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
disaster or the migrant crisis, for example. So that could involve the | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
UK bailing out a Eurozone country. Let's be clear, the UK will not | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
contribute to a Eurozone bailout. We are not in the Eurozone. And we have | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
a veto on increases in the European budget. These guys can muddy the | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
water all they like and pick out little things and say because an | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
inch as been given there are, a mile or be given away and we are going to | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
contribute all this money. It won't happen. It is only a matter of time | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
before the crisis hits France or Italy. You know that. You want be | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
dragged into it is a fantasy. Let's pick up on the budget. -- that you | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
won't be dragged into it is a fancy C. The fiscal framework that comes | :17:02. | :17:09. | |
up every seven years, there are individual negotiations that Britain | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
does not have a veto over. It can be passed by qualified majority voting, | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
so in between those two .7 years, the budget can go up and Britain | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
wouldn't be able to stop it. Britain has stopped increases in the budget | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
in the past, and it can in the future. Let me make this point. I | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
think there is a fair point in relation to what happens if there is | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
a complete contrast of the in the Eurozone. What does happen? Go back | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
to when Greece was on the precipice of potentially coming out. There was | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
no question at that time that we would be contributing into the | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
bailout, but people anticipated that if Greece came out there would be a | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
severe humanitarian situation in Greece, not least because of the | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
economy collapsing more than it has already done. In that situation, I | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
don't think even Dan would advocate that the UK shouldn't play some | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
part. At the idea that we would pay into a bailout is for the birds. It | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
won't happen. Right, what about the idea of the budget? Is it true that | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
Britain does have a veto every seven years by those negotiations, but on | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
the annual negotiations they don't? Yes. And for the first time ever in | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
17 years that I have been in the parliament, they have postponed the | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
discussion of the mid-term review until after the referendum. It was | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
due at the start of the year and they said, let's not try to me | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
horses. They are doing this in area after area. The attack on commercial | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
ports, the budget hike, all of these things are being held back for the | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
event of the stay vote that Remain vote. -- in the event of a Remained. | :18:57. | :19:08. | |
They are banning hairdryers and toasters. The higher powered one. | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
They will find a lot of the ones they are currently buying are now | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
banned. Is that because of safety regulations? It has been postponed | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
until after our referendum. It was lifted from the agenda at the last | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
minute and deferred. You are saying that they have banned these | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
electrical appliances, and it turns out they happened at all. So you | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
won't be able to use a hair dryer if we stay in the EU? All of these | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
things have been deferred. In your case, it might not be such a | :19:49. | :19:58. | |
problem! Let down finish the point. The plans for ports is opposed by | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
every port owner. That went through every British -- that went through. | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
Every MEP voted against. And they have deferred until after the | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
summer. There is so much stuff being held back. Every single port owner | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
is against it. You may think it is funny. I am not laughing. You're the | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
one making it up as you go along. Every MEP and owner are posted. You | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
are now making light of it and saying it doesn't matter. You are | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
saying our ports will be shut down? They will face a commercial | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
disadvantage. Let's see what happens in a few weeks. Thank you for coming | :20:43. | :20:44. | |
in. This afternoon, the European | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
Commission is expected to outline new measures to reduce the numbers | :20:48. | :20:49. | |
of migrants attempting to make the journey | :20:50. | :20:51. | |
across the mediterranean Reports suggest the Commission | :20:52. | :20:53. | |
will propose offering some Middle Eastern and north-east | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
African countries extra cash and visa liberalisation in return | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
for their cooperation in stopping Dan Hannan is staying for this bit. | :21:01. | :21:17. | |
What is being proposed precisely, Damien? We don't know the details. | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
They have been debating this morning in the commission, nailing down what | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
they want to release. The full the tiles will come out very shortly. We | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
understand that the broad brush is that this is the latest part of the | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
EU's migration strategy to tackle the migration crisis. We have seen | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
what happened in Greece and Turkey with the deal there. What the | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
commission is saying is that building on that sort of template, | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
that experience, not exactly what has happened there, but similar, | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
because they say it has been successful and we have seen a | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
dramatic reduction in numbers, they are looking at a similar thing with | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
African and Middle Eastern countries. That means essentially | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
these partnerships that they are talking about, which boils down to | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
trying to get the countries of origin, the source countries that | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
the migrants come from, and the countries they pass through to do | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
more to restrict the flows. In return, the EU would offer financial | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
help with things like putting up a fund for development projects in | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
some of those countries in Africa, more money for border controls, for | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
trying to help those transit companies deal with things and put | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
in more border controls, and ultimately offer greater | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
partnerships in terms of access to the European Union for legal | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
migration, so that would be people who would be able to get work | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
permits to work in the EU. We're not talking huge numbers. The current | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
numbers under this blue card scheme that exists for skilled migrants is | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
about ten - 12,000 per year, but talking about that is going up to | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
between 30000 and 100,000 a year of skilled migrants able to come in. | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
These are promises that would be given down the line and they | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
promised preferential trade. Briefly, have you had any | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
conversations with these countries themselves? Are they eager for these | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
deals and partnerships to happen to deal with the migrant crisis? The | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
difficulty with a lot of this is that many of the countries that are | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
key to this are very difficult for the EU to deal with. Libya, of | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
course, is the key transit point for the route to Italy, which is the | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
biggest issue facing the EU at the minute. The numbers coming through | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
that route are far greater than the numbers crossing from Turkey to | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
Greece, but there is no Government, no authority in Libya for the EU to | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
deal with at the minute with whom they could implement something like | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
this. That is a problem. It is a problem for the EU to try to deal | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
with countries like Sudan and Eritrea, which are source countries | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
but which have human rights concerns in terms of doing a deal. The focus | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
initially will perhaps be more on places like Jordan, Lebanon, and | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
then perhaps some West African countries. Thank you. Can this work | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
with these countries, particularly those who don't have governments | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
that we can deal with? It is welcome that we have these developments. I | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
hope they work. In the end, I hope this this is something -- this is | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
something that is a cross-border issue and we can deal with it on our | :24:46. | :24:55. | |
own. The other issue is an skewering there is sufficient aid closer to | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
the countries of origin for these refugees so that they don't actually | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
have to make the dangerous trip, or they don't feel the pull to make | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
that trip. This is why they want to try and replicate the deal that they | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
have done with Turkey - it has worked. Talking about the countries | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
of origin is our way of not facing the question. Do you disagree? I | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
spent a lot of last summer volunteering in a hostility in Italy | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
dealing with underage migrants were crossing the Mediterranean. -- in a | :25:32. | :25:41. | |
hostel in Italy. Buy what about turning them away? They are coming | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
because of rising wealth and aspiration. The telephones and | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
technology that make it possible to cross the Sahara in a way that there | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
are subsistence -- that there is subsistence farmer grandparents | :25:59. | :26:08. | |
could not. They have not... People are coming through alternative | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
routes, either through Hungary or whatever. Do you think it could | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
work? The real problem the EU had was that it invited people in, and | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
because it had the Schengen zone, and there was no responsibility for | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
each country, there was a perverse incentive to waive people through to | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
the next jurisdiction. This has been the problem all along, and the | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
question for Britain and everyone else is, we can see that the EU is | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
being convulsed by these twin crises. Could the UK deal with a | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
better alone? Yes. Are we going to make them our problems or are we | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
going to reorient towards the rest of the world? Voting to stay in is | :26:48. | :26:56. | |
not the same as... We are not part of the Schengen passport - free | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
zone. There is a big contradiction in what Dan is saying. He is saying | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
all these people are coming because of the pull on the wealthy get in | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
the Eurozone, and on the other hand he is telling you the Eurozone is a | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
basket case. That is why they are heading here. Because the UK -- the | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
the EU is a basket case? In the final weeks before the EU | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
referendum, we have been showcasing the arguments for Leave and Remain | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
made by members of different In a moment, we'll hear | :27:29. | :27:30. | |
from the Labour MP and chair of the Vote Leave campaign, | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
Gisela Stuart. First, here's Labour's Shadow | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, with the Labour case for remaining | :27:38. | :27:39. | |
in the EU. The peaceful and prosperous Europe | :27:40. | :27:50. | |
we are part of today is a far It is a Europe of cooperation that | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
has brought jobs, investment and growth, | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
that enables us to work, And that cooperation is exactly | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
what the next generation is going to rely on to deal | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
with the challenges that Making sure our economy | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
is strong so that we can pay for our NHS, dealing with | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
the movement of people because of conflict and climate | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
change, keeping us safe, and making the most | :28:22. | :28:23. | |
of the Walking away from Europe | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
isn't going to help our children and our grandchildren | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
to manage the change that they are What will is continuing | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
to work with our neighbours in Europe, | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
and we're good at it. Britain has always been | :28:41. | :28:42. | |
an It is why we have such | :28:43. | :28:43. | |
influence around the This is not a vote about the past, | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
it is a vote about our future. Let's secure that future | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
by voting Remain. That was Hilary Benn. And here is | :28:55. | :29:10. | |
Gisela Stuart, with the Labour case for leaving the EU. | :29:11. | :29:26. | |
The EU once promised a social Europe defending Labour's values. | :29:27. | :29:28. | |
Today, the left make up only a third of | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
those running the EU, which is dominated by the leaders | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
of the right, even the far right, and their | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
George Osborne, Goldman Sachs, the CBI, the | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
Institute of Directors - it is a Tory-EU elite, | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
campaigning first to remain part of their EU that they | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
But if we vote Leave, we take back control. | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
We would be better off if we used the ?350 million | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
that we send to the EU each week to build the NHS. | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
We would be safer if we controlled our borders and protected | :30:01. | :30:02. | |
our public services by not ratifying TTIP. | :30:03. | :30:04. | |
protected from the Eurozone's austerity that has left a | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
generation of young people without work. | :30:10. | :30:11. | |
And we would be fairer if we | :30:12. | :30:12. | |
end the discrimination in our immigration system and end the | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
erosion of wages in our poorest communities. | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
We can build a better future based on Labour values, but | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
only if we vote Leave and take back control. | :30:23. | :30:24. | |
And Gisela Stuart is here with us now. | :30:25. | :30:43. | |
Welcome back to the Daily Politics. First of all, Chuka Umunna, this | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
idea, you must accept surely, that there are more people competing for | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
relatively low-paid jobs that depresses wages, which is bad news | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
for a lot of your voters and that is a result of EU migration? I don't | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
quite accepted the way you have put. I have huge respect for Gisela, who | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
is a friend and we agree on so many things, but on this, we | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
fundamentally disagree, as do the overwhelming majority of MPs in the | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
Labour Party. Are you saying it doesn't depress wages for the | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
low-paid, EU migration? I would not disagree that it has posed | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
difficulties in the Labour market, but what I would say is that in the | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
end, if you want to prevent depression in wages, you need to get | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
a good national minimum wage going up and properly enforce it, which | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
the current Government isn't doing and secondly, a lot of people, when | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
I have had this discussion, so these people are taking our jobs. The idea | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
that if the people who supposedly are taking the jobs, when they go, | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
others can step in, is for the birds. The big problem we have in | :31:53. | :32:05. | |
the Labour market is we are not equipping people with the right | :32:06. | :32:06. | |
skills, technical vocational skills and apprenticeships to make it. The | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
big thing the EU does, not only is it a big wealth and jobs generator, | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
the countries representing over 600 members, the important thing is that | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
we have a flaw in terms of jobs and workers' rights across the European | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
Union that prevents British workers being played off against French | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
workers or German workers or any others. Do you accept the great | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
strides that have been paid by the EU and UK workers enjoy the workers' | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
rights passed by the EU and compelled the Government to actually | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
put them into statute? I am kind of puzzled by this historical analysis. | :32:44. | :32:52. | |
If you look at workers' rights in the United Kingdom, they have been | :32:53. | :32:53. | |
far more progressive than the rest of the European Union. Many of the | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
rights which are now even more generous in the United Kingdom | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
started well before then. Equal pay for women goes back to Made In | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
Dagenham and Barbara Castle and all those things. We now have European | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
Court of Justice rulings, things like the right to strike will be | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
curtailed in the interest of the full movement. Which ruling? The | :33:12. | :33:21. | |
Viking ship the case. Brendan Barber contended, Alan Johnson did. So the | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
rightward coverlet of the right to strike would be withdrawn? The | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
European Court of Justice made it clear that if you want to strike, | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
the interests of the European Union overrule the interests... This is a | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
once in a generation decision on how we conduct ourselves in the future | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
and who should make the decisions. The eurozone at the moment has | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
enormous youth unemployment. They can only resolve it with the | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
eurozone or deeply integrates as a political institution. We will be | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
collectively better off if our economies are more successful. The | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
eurozone has to go one way and our future is a different way. I used to | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
be an employment lawyer for the best part of a decade and if you look at | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
temporary worker rights, anti-discrimination rights, | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
anti-discrimination... All of those things derive from EU legislation | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
but the principal point I made to Gisela, which is having this floor | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
and a standard set of rights across 28 member states, stops that race to | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
the bottom where our rides could potentially be set off against | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
German or Polish employees. And on the eurozone, because Gisela brought | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
it up, let's be clear, we are not a member of the eurozone, but being | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
part of the single market, let's not forget, it is our biggest customer, | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
44% of our exports Kovach, creates jobs. Look at the chairman of | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
Hitachi, employs 41,000 people in our country, developing trends in | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
the north-east, it is clear that if we let the EU, it would affect | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
investment decisions. Can we come back to certain things? The lowest | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
paid at the moment, the Bank of England says for every 10% of | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
immigration, 2% of the wages are suppressed. We have big companies | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
are able to not train workers because they can fish from an | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
enormous big pool of workers across the European Union who are prepared | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
to work for very low wages. The Labour Party today makes a case | :35:32. | :35:33. | |
about workers' rights, let's come back to that, workers' rights are | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
any meaningful if you have got a job, that is the really important | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
thing. Let Gisela finish a point. May I just finished? If you go back | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
to the workers' rights and employment record, what I found in | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
the United Kingdom, what has produced good workers' rights and | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
feathers have been strong trade unions and strong Labour governments | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
and even the most right-wing Tory governments have been unable to undo | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
this. Minimum wage, remember the great evening whether Labour | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
Government introduced it? If you want progressive social rights and | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
employment, you make sure you have a Labour Government. I think we are | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
both agreed that a Labour Government is a way to creating a more | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
progressive... Do you think a Labour Government will not come in so you | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
need the EU? For all of the claims how we need to take control, the | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
national minimum wage is an example of how we do and Gisela is right, we | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
need strong trade unions but the overwhelming majority of trade union | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
representing the overwhelming majority of members want to stay in | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
the EU. The US trade deal, do you support that deal? Not in its | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
current form, it needs to change. I have said let's wait and see and I | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
have spoken to the current trade Commissioner about this and to the | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
previous one and the idea that our socialist colleagues in Government | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
in France, social Democratic colleagues in Sweden and the new | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
Socialist Government in Portugal, potential coalition partners in | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
Spain, would sign off on agreement that is detrimental to promoting | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
equality and public services... The report from the European | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
Parliament's policy Department has predicted that more than a million | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
EU citizens will be forced out of work as a direct result of TTIP, | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
including 150,000 in the UK, which is why Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
is vetoing it. But let's be clear, we don't have a final agreement. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
Hillary Clinton isn't terribly keen. Will jobs be lost as a result of | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
TTIP? It is not agree Jed. Transparency, regulations levelling | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
up and down and it implies that a different US state to get the value | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
back in the UK. We do not have formal final agreement, the | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
presumptive Democratic nominee doesn't agree with it and nor does | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
our Government. So it sounds like it will not happen whether we stay in | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
or out of the EU? No, but TTIP illustrate something important. | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
Don't you find it troubling that we don't even see the text? | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
Negotiations are going somewhere else. Two thirds of the Governments | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
that will make the decisions are no right or centre-right governments, | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
so workers' rights are not at the top. Even Germany is unhappy with | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
TTIP. Big companies can take Government to court, which will | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
seriously undermined the NHS. Are we going to agree? It sounds like there | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
will be an awful lot of opposition. Westminster Parliament have no say | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
in this until the end, so I am against big vested interest making | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
deals behind doors where we as elected representatives are only | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
dealt with at the end of it. But it is untrue to say Parliament hasn't | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
had a say. Once you get the text put before European Council, the | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
democratically elected Government of United Kingdom and governments of | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
all other member state countries will have an input. The idea that | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
when is published and we have to accept it, is totally untrue. But to | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
take control means to vote Labour and we can make decisions about | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
this. Well, you got the last word. She didn't, you just butted in | :39:25. | :39:25. | |
again! In the last hour, Mike Ashley - | :39:26. | :39:26. | |
the founder and boss of one of Europe's biggest sports | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
retailers, Sports Direct - has been questioned by MPs | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
on the Business Select committee, about claims that thousands | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
of his warehouse workers have effectively been paid below | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
the minimum wage. Here was Mike Ashley | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
being questioned by MPs a little You are the founder of the company, | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
you have grown this company you wouldn't be impartial | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
when it comes to this. Do you need somebody independent | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
to look at this with I can agree with you that in some | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
ways, I am not the right person, because I am not an expert | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
in every area of employment. Obviously, it is not my field | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
of expertise, it is not So, yes, there could be other people | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
that you could have said would have been better qualified than me | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
to do it. In terms of what you have been doing | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
in regards to this review, are there some things you have found | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
out that you didn't Some things have come as a bit | :40:25. | :40:26. | |
of an unpleasant surprise, yes. Could I also ask, in terms | :40:27. | :40:35. | |
of the allegations that were made in December about searches, | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
you were talking about bottlenecks, do you accept that the company | :40:39. | :40:40. | |
was effectively paying workers On that specific point for that | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
specific bit of time, yes. When people are searched at the end | :40:43. | :40:53. | |
of the working shift, If I clock off at five o'clock | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
and it takes five or ten minutes, would I be paid for those | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
extra ten minutes? You shouldn't take five or ten | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
minutes, that is point. We now talk to Kate Andrews from | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
the Institute Of Economic Affairs, and of course, Chuka Umunna, | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
who was Labour's Shadow Business Secretary 2011-2015 and has also | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
worked as an employment lawyer. He is still here with us. Kate | :41:18. | :41:28. | |
Andrews, is it right that the businessmen like Mike Ashley should | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
come before a committee of MPs and be grilled? If it is suspected he is | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
up to illegal behaviour, then yes, probably. Anybody, even if they | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
support the surveillance, should be deeply uncomfortable with the way | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
Sports Direct has handled this issue with employees having to strip down | :41:48. | :41:49. | |
to see if they have potentially stolen anything. Very uncomfortable | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
there. But if you look back to the original story, when the Guardian | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
reported it, they reported the surveillance issue and that | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
employees were penalised if they turned up late, cuts to their wages, | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
and they acted like it was the same thing and this is what I am | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
fundamentally concerned about. Employees have the right to enter | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
into any voluntary contract with the employer as long as it is legal and | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
we should rightly question whether or not Sports Direct has invaded on | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
people's privacy with the surveillance issue, but suggesting | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
an employer cannot have penalties for people is being later work and | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
overstep by the Government. Other things were cited, people talking on | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
mobile phones when on shift, people breaching quite basic levels of | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
behaviour that actually the public might think is totally acceptable. | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
Director to enact. I tabled an urgent question on this in December | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
in relation to whether or not Sports Direct were complying with | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
obligations to pay the national minimum wage, which interlinks | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
because there was the question of whether people were being paid for | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
the time they sent being body searched, so to speak, and I am | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
pleased that HMRC appear to have vindicated the concerns that I and | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
other MPs raised, because it seems an agreement to compensate employees | :43:08. | :43:09. | |
will time they should have been paid has been reached, that has just come | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
out on the website for the BBC before I came into the studio. But | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
there are things that companies are able to do in the law and there are | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
things that we all expect of companies, as citizens, in our | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
economy and in society and specifically, because I am aware of | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
how litigious some of these CEOs and chair people can be and I'm sure the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
BBC are as well, so let me reserve my comments for the companies as | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
opposed to the people running them, but I think what we have seen | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
through the working practices of Sports Direct but also recent events | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
at BHS is the ugly underbelly of capitalism, where people are treated | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
appallingly badly. But that is not the same as being treated in an | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
illegal fashion. But my argument... Look, I think British business on | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
the whole treats its employees very well indeed and has a huge amount | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
and contributes a huge amount but the problem with practices like this | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
is, look, there are lots of things the law allows us to do but we | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
choose not to do them because we care for our fellow citizens and | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
human beings. Let's look at the moral code, then, do you feel | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
comfortable with that or is it, as reported, that shares have fallen in | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
Sports Direct because of the negative publicity, by 45%. In a | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
way, the market will make a decision is bad practice is going on? Well, | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
talking about the underbelly of capitalism, it is blatantly ignoring | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
the fact that the market has spoken on the issue and when illegal | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
behaviour is suggested, people do appear in front of bodies publicly | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
and are held to account, but what this Government wants to do in the | :44:52. | :45:00. | |
Labour movement is crack down on... Do they have the choice, when it | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
comes to zero hours contracts, it may sue people but many do not have | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
a choice. It suits politicians to say people are being treated | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
unfairly but look at the facts and what employees have to say when it | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
comes to zero hours contracts. 60% of people are satisfied or very | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
satisfied with the contract, 2% higher than the average full-time | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
worker. Nine out of ten on zero hours contracts say they do not want | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
more working hours, often students or parents raising children, who | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
want flexibility. The Government uses examples like Sports Direct, | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
admittedly a bad example, but they want to come in and bring sweeping | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
regulation to stop people from having flexibility that they want. | :45:44. | :45:52. | |
Have you ever worked a zero-hours contract? No, but my friend has. Are | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
you saying that they don't suit anyone? Know, and I didn't say it | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
when I was Shadow Business Secretary. I have seen data as to | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
whether people are satisfied or not but I don't accept the | :46:09. | :46:10. | |
characterisation of those figures and how they have been put forward. | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
Let's look at the reality. There are lots of people who have been on | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
zero-hours contracts, and it means that you don't know when your next | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
shift will come. It means it is very hard, for example, to get a | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
mortgage, because you do not have stable income. I don't think there | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
is an issue with politicians. You say that politicians use us. I | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
represent 100,000 people and I have constituents who come to me about | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
the way they are treated and the instability in their lives because | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
of zero-hours contract. Would you ban them? I wouldn't, but they need | :46:46. | :46:55. | |
to be tightened up a lot more. You can be required to be on call, | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
you're not offered a shift and you do not get paid anything. It is | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
unacceptable. Is it better than not having a job? You would clearly | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
rather have a job. But if you don't have any hours that pay you a | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
salary, some people would question the benefit. Chuka has questioned | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
the figures unsatisfied and very satisfied. It seems unlikely that | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
that number of people would favour in security. If Chalker has other | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
figures, he is welcome to share them. I am sure they are accurate. | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
It has been said that you could not be just from that that everyone is | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
happy being on a zero-hours contract. This is what we get from | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
Government politicians who know -- you think that they know best | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
possible society. You're suggesting that those people shouldn't have the | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
same opportunities because you are uncomfortable. I speak for | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
constituents who come into my surgery. I represent people and have | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
a mandate. If you want to get to the heart of the problem, you need to | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
address the fact that the economy is stagnant and there are not enough | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
full-time jobs. If you were to lower taxes and bring in investment, you | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
and I could be on the same page. For people who want full time jobs, they | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
should be able to have them. But we are not addressing those who want | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
the flexibility. You are probably -- you're just condemning capitalism. | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
Kate, thank you very much. 150 years ago today, | :48:26. | :48:27. | |
John Stuart Mill presented a petition in Parliament, | :48:28. | :48:29. | |
calling for votes for women. It was seen as the start | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
of the women's suffrage movement. To celebrate, MPs are unveiling | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
a new artwork in Westminster Hall later this evening, and it's called | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
New Dawn. Our Ellie has been given | :48:42. | :48:43. | |
an exclusive sneaky peak. New Dawn is about celebrating | :48:44. | :49:03. | |
all the women that fought for the vote, | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
and having it above the entrance to | :49:08. | :49:09. | |
St Stephens's, that's where all the women would have come in originally | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
at the time of the protests, and these are the steps | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
that they would have walked through, where | :49:18. | :49:19. | |
they were It is a very powerful | :49:20. | :49:21. | |
position to put the 180 different glass discs, | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
New Dawn has taken over a year to It is the first time a piece | :49:26. | :49:33. | |
of abstract art has been commissioned for permanent display | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
in Parliament, and MPs have been overseeing some of | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
the crucial points in the creative process, | :49:41. | :49:41. | |
and even When 14-year-old girls go around | :49:42. | :49:43. | |
Parliament, they see that Parliament is a place for them, | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
because if they were just to wander around, they would see lots | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
of commemorations of men, lots of They would see a statue | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
to Margaret Thatcher and a couple of busts, | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
but otherwise, they would be wondering | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
why it was such an alien Once all the glass was made, | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
the final piece was set up and tested in a warehouse in | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
West London, again, in front of an And even those involved | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
were taken aback. I hadn't visualised how | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
going to be, and it was only ten minutes ago | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
that I first saw it, and | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
When we first heard about Mary's concept, I'm not sure that any of us | :50:25. | :50:33. | |
appreciated that it would take kilometres of wiring | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
and the complexity of programming, but I think it is | :50:39. | :50:40. | |
something that is going to work fantastically well and be a proper | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
monument to the suffragettes in Parliament. | :50:46. | :50:46. | |
There is a reason for the technology, and it's not just | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
The whole thing is linked to the height of the River | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
Thames, so as the tide changes, this sequence will change. | :50:54. | :50:55. | |
We have settings for high tide, low tide and | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
It was a struggle that lasted more than 70 years, now a permanent | :51:00. | :51:07. | |
reminder for the hundreds of thousands of people who fought so | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
And the artist who designed and made the artwork, | :51:11. | :51:28. | |
It's beautiful. I haven't seen it in situ, but explain to me the discs. | :51:29. | :51:40. | |
OK. When I first started my residency in Parliament in 2014, I | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
went to look at the archives to build up an idea of the movement, | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
and to understand about women's suffrage. The first place I went to | :51:54. | :52:01. | |
was the Act Room, in Parliament, and it's an incredible space, filled | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
with hundreds of thousands of scrolls on vellum. I wanted to | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
include that within the artwork. That is what they represent? Yes. | :52:10. | :52:18. | |
And legislation and laws related to the suffragette movement. Have you | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
seen a? I haven't, and I am looking forward to. I think we take a | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
granted many of the rights that people have today, and there is a | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
degree of casual sexism, dare I say, Parliament. It shows that although | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
we have made great strides forward, we have some way to go. I looked at | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
some of the history of this, and the first meeting of the Parliamentary | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
Labour Party, and admittedly our meetings are blithely on a Monday... | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
They are at the moment! They are. But on the agenda was to look at how | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
to ensure that we got the ball from women in this country. Of course, it | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
was part of a wide coalition of people. The thing that in terms of | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
other installations, sculptures and bus that are there, that it does | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
still feel like a bastion of maleness? I have been over two years | :53:09. | :53:16. | |
now, and I was surprised that it doesn't feel like that to me. I | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
think there is another face of Parliament where everyone who works | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
within the building, it is very different from what I think people | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
perceive on the outside. But that is just my own interpretation and how I | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
felt while I was in Parliament. One of the things that was mentioned | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
that I didn't understand was that the installation changes with the | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
tides. Yes. How does that work? All the glass this could have LED lights | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
behind and they are individually driven -- all the glass desks have | :53:53. | :54:03. | |
LED lights. Why did you do that? All of the pictures and posters that I | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
discovered during my research said that you could not hold back the | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
tide of change, so I wanted to include that element in the artwork, | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
but I also wanted it to be a living artwork and relevant to women now | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
and what is happening within Parliament now. I wanted it to speed | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
to young women and ourselves. And the public can see it? All the time. | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
You can get tickets, go online to the parliamentary box office, and | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
then you can see it. Thank you for coming in. | :54:38. | :54:38. | |
There are plenty of events in the annual parliamentary calendar | :54:39. | :54:40. | |
worth getting into your diary - the Queen's Speech, the Budget, | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
And of course, the Lords versus MPs tug-of-war contest. | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
And in case you missed it, Giles went along to check out | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
Like pancakes and pet dogs, Parliament has its annual | :54:50. | :55:00. | |
traditions. The tug-of-war for Mike Millen Cancer support is one such | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
event, now 30 years old. And it comes with bells on. Some bubbles, | :55:05. | :55:17. | |
bugles, no strings attached, and of course, there is plenty of rope. If | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
you fancied the PM pulling against Mr Corbyn, I'm afraid not. I had | :55:22. | :55:30. | |
gone along merely to observe, when the House of Lords came calling. | :55:31. | :55:42. | |
Have I been ennobled? Once the ladies did the... Their best to beat | :55:43. | :55:53. | |
the ladies that are... I rushed back to the office to change. So it came | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
to pass that their Lordships and I took to the field of bad dreams, and | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
I appraise the Commons opposition. Is it rude to say that the MPs have | :56:05. | :56:17. | |
some rather large people? Ready, Paul! -- pull! Eight years. They | :56:18. | :56:32. | |
have done it. My help was not enough. Dam, that's exhausting. It | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
is, however, the taking part and not be winning that counts, and I was | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
proud to be part of the only occasion it is OK for politicians to | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
go won the pole. Great endline! We have been joined | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
by the Lib Dem peer Lord Addington, and the Conservative MP Graham | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
Evans. Was it the weight of the Commons that did it? Absolutely. I | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
would not say you were large, but you look quite beefy. We had the | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
largest member of the law steam and the smallest member of the Commons. | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
Do you blame Giles for losing? I would blame everyone but myself | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
because I am a politician. Was it your first time? It was my sixth | :57:17. | :57:24. | |
time. I would like to think we are pulling together for a good cause. | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
Why did you not take part? I wasn't asked. Next year. Was this your | :57:32. | :57:41. | |
first time? I am a veteran of the first time it happened, 29 years | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
ago. We won for the first few years where we had this battery of people | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
who spent their time wrestling cals on farms who would turn up and win. | :57:52. | :57:59. | |
-- wrestling cattle. Do you do any practice? Politics and tug-of-war | :58:00. | :58:13. | |
are both team games. Thank you, gentlemen. You deserve a | :58:14. | :58:14. | |
lie down. There's just time before we go | :58:15. | :58:16. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. According to the Times, | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
what was Ed Balls up to at a London or d) tweeting about himself? | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
Richie classic, Endless Love, I think it was Endless Love, wasn't | :58:24. | :58:45. | |
it? It was. On that note, thank you for being my guest. | :58:46. | :58:46. | |
Thanks to Chuka Umunna and all my guests. | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage | :58:53. | :58:55. |